Explaining to my father that European ≠ white
June 7, 2020 10:58 PM
My dad often travels to Europe and enjoys each country's unique culture. Unfortunately, he feels that nonwhite people are not "really European" and detract from his experience of Europe. Help!
My father is in his early 70s. We live in Canada. He considers himself quite left-wing and a "good white guy".
He has travelled in Europe a lot, and has mentioned to me several times that it bothers him that European countries are losing their culture due to immigration. For example, he complained that an area of Paris that once had multiple crepe restaurants now only has kebab restaurants.
When I said that this is quite racist he became very defensive. He told me that he would be just as bothered by Germans living in France, or Dutch people living in Sweden (however it is obvious that what makes him uncomfortable are nonwhite people, since he would assume that a white Italian person walking around Helsinki would automatically be Finnish).
He likes the idea of each country having its own unique culture and that is what he enjoys experiencing when he travels. He does admit that it "might be selfish" of him, as I explained that that is his view as a traveller and does not necessarily reflect how people who actually live there feel.
(I did ask him if he felt this way, then obviously North and South America should only be inhabited by indigenous people? He didn't really have an answer for that.)
We go back and forth in these debates, and it's pretty upsetting to me. To me the idea that European=white is basically far-right propaganda. I get pretty flustered when I argue so I am hoping to find some other things to say to him, or some resources.
My father is in his early 70s. We live in Canada. He considers himself quite left-wing and a "good white guy".
He has travelled in Europe a lot, and has mentioned to me several times that it bothers him that European countries are losing their culture due to immigration. For example, he complained that an area of Paris that once had multiple crepe restaurants now only has kebab restaurants.
When I said that this is quite racist he became very defensive. He told me that he would be just as bothered by Germans living in France, or Dutch people living in Sweden (however it is obvious that what makes him uncomfortable are nonwhite people, since he would assume that a white Italian person walking around Helsinki would automatically be Finnish).
He likes the idea of each country having its own unique culture and that is what he enjoys experiencing when he travels. He does admit that it "might be selfish" of him, as I explained that that is his view as a traveller and does not necessarily reflect how people who actually live there feel.
(I did ask him if he felt this way, then obviously North and South America should only be inhabited by indigenous people? He didn't really have an answer for that.)
We go back and forth in these debates, and it's pretty upsetting to me. To me the idea that European=white is basically far-right propaganda. I get pretty flustered when I argue so I am hoping to find some other things to say to him, or some resources.
If he's ashamed by it, you should send him some links to the Front Nationale, and AFD etc, and say, "Dad look at these groups, they totally agree with you - is this the kind of company you want to keep?".
You could soften that by talking about the history of migration that spans tens of thousands of years, ask him if he thinks the Normans should stay out of England and Sicily, if the Saxons should go back to Denmark etc.
The idea of a static national identity is ahistorical - half of the countries in Europe didn't even exist in their current states 200 years ago, that multiculturalism, like the melange of "French", "Italian", and "German" combining to make Switzerland uniquely "Swiss", is what gives Europe it's amazing flavour. In fact, there is no Switzerland without those countries. Italy didn't even exist as a country until relatively recently, does he feel the same way about Calabrians living in Emilia-Romagna? If not, why not? Kebab stores have been a part of Europe probably since your Dad was a child.
posted by smoke at 11:12 PM on June 7, 2020
You could soften that by talking about the history of migration that spans tens of thousands of years, ask him if he thinks the Normans should stay out of England and Sicily, if the Saxons should go back to Denmark etc.
The idea of a static national identity is ahistorical - half of the countries in Europe didn't even exist in their current states 200 years ago, that multiculturalism, like the melange of "French", "Italian", and "German" combining to make Switzerland uniquely "Swiss", is what gives Europe it's amazing flavour. In fact, there is no Switzerland without those countries. Italy didn't even exist as a country until relatively recently, does he feel the same way about Calabrians living in Emilia-Romagna? If not, why not? Kebab stores have been a part of Europe probably since your Dad was a child.
posted by smoke at 11:12 PM on June 7, 2020
He could become a connoisseur of how every culture makes something different and characteristic out of each incoming thing. Of all the kebab shops in Paris, which is most kebab-y and also wouldn’t be just the same anywhere but Paris? Marie de Medicis couldn’t make their cuisine properly Italian.
posted by clew at 11:18 PM on June 7, 2020
posted by clew at 11:18 PM on June 7, 2020
For example, he complained that an area of Paris that once had multiple crepe restaurants now only has kebab restaurants.
Kebabs in pide bread were invented in the Kreuzberg neighborhood of Berlin -- in Turkey kebab meat is usually served on a plate. That's literally an European dish created by immigrants, just like spaghetti with meatballs is an Italian-American dish created by immigrants.
He likes the idea of each country having its own unique culture and that is what he enjoys experiencing when he travels.
Nobody is obligated to be a theme park for tourists, you know.
To me the idea that European=white is basically far-right propaganda.
Well, yes. And I would add that the existence of immigrants from a country's former colonies (Indonesians in the Netherlands, Algerians and Moroccans in France, Latin Americans in Spain, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis in the UK) is exactly what you would expect, historically. Your dad is experiencing European history.
posted by sukeban at 11:20 PM on June 7, 2020
Kebabs in pide bread were invented in the Kreuzberg neighborhood of Berlin -- in Turkey kebab meat is usually served on a plate. That's literally an European dish created by immigrants, just like spaghetti with meatballs is an Italian-American dish created by immigrants.
He likes the idea of each country having its own unique culture and that is what he enjoys experiencing when he travels.
Nobody is obligated to be a theme park for tourists, you know.
To me the idea that European=white is basically far-right propaganda.
Well, yes. And I would add that the existence of immigrants from a country's former colonies (Indonesians in the Netherlands, Algerians and Moroccans in France, Latin Americans in Spain, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis in the UK) is exactly what you would expect, historically. Your dad is experiencing European history.
posted by sukeban at 11:20 PM on June 7, 2020
What your dad imagines as his ideal is not a continent but a themepark, with the never changing neatly delineated zones which are always on brand to guarantee a consistent consumer experience. Someone who actually values authenticity would be appalled by that vision. Outside influence is how cultures stay vibrant, dynmamic and innovative.
posted by sohalt at 11:59 PM on June 7, 2020
posted by sohalt at 11:59 PM on June 7, 2020
If he considers himself a left wing good guy, I think he can take some time to navigate his mind to rethinking about what exactly culture is. I think people make really salient points here that it’s not a fixed monolith.
If tourists were to come to London (where I live) and I think about what the most stereotypical things they would do and either ignoring or lamenting the contributions of immigrants I’d be quite sad for them for not experiencing what I personally would think is the “real” London as a resident. I mean definitely have some fish and chips and a Sunday Roast at a pub! But my god, if they don’t have a tikka masala (quintessentially a British Indian and not Indian thing), a kebab, a goat curry and roti, they are really missing out on experiencing London! (And I’d love to compare a kebab in London to one in Paris to one in Istanbul!)
Sure there are probably some Londoners who think these things are not “British” (but they will still get a kebab after a night out, I bet you a quid) but uh, they’re racists. The “good guys” know that it’s all part of making this city vibrant, exciting, and dynamic. Which group would he want to take tourist advice from?
I think Paris is like London and a poor example of where he thinks a country’s outdated cultural identifiers should remain stagnant and unchanging. That’s like, the opposite of how a major metropolitan city develops.
posted by like_neon at 12:39 AM on June 8, 2020
If tourists were to come to London (where I live) and I think about what the most stereotypical things they would do and either ignoring or lamenting the contributions of immigrants I’d be quite sad for them for not experiencing what I personally would think is the “real” London as a resident. I mean definitely have some fish and chips and a Sunday Roast at a pub! But my god, if they don’t have a tikka masala (quintessentially a British Indian and not Indian thing), a kebab, a goat curry and roti, they are really missing out on experiencing London! (And I’d love to compare a kebab in London to one in Paris to one in Istanbul!)
Sure there are probably some Londoners who think these things are not “British” (but they will still get a kebab after a night out, I bet you a quid) but uh, they’re racists. The “good guys” know that it’s all part of making this city vibrant, exciting, and dynamic. Which group would he want to take tourist advice from?
I think Paris is like London and a poor example of where he thinks a country’s outdated cultural identifiers should remain stagnant and unchanging. That’s like, the opposite of how a major metropolitan city develops.
posted by like_neon at 12:39 AM on June 8, 2020
It sounds like he's nostalgic for his childhood and defensive when called racist, both of which are pretty common. "Just as bothered by Germans living in France" -- uh, has he ever heard of Alsace-Lorraine? What a weird comparison. He's just being stubborn and you know it.
Fortunately nobody in Europe is asking for your dad's opinion in their city planning boards. I'd suggest that he try taking in what these cultures are bringing to the table. The fact that you can get both amazing traditional French food and amazing traditional North African food in Paris is part of what makes Paris so great. Maybe if he can enjoy what is new rather than just mourning what's lost he wouldn't be as upset.
posted by phoenixy at 12:50 AM on June 8, 2020
Fortunately nobody in Europe is asking for your dad's opinion in their city planning boards. I'd suggest that he try taking in what these cultures are bringing to the table. The fact that you can get both amazing traditional French food and amazing traditional North African food in Paris is part of what makes Paris so great. Maybe if he can enjoy what is new rather than just mourning what's lost he wouldn't be as upset.
posted by phoenixy at 12:50 AM on June 8, 2020
He likes the idea of each country having its own unique culture and that is what he enjoys experiencing when he travels
Each country does have its own unique culture. He is right about that. Where he is getting confused is:
He has some Disney cartoon version of each culture in his mind and then is upset that the real country does not match his expectations. In some sense, this is a variant of Paris syndrome. If he would take the time to let the culture unfold for him he would find a richer, deeper experience in traveling. The story of great cities in Europe is the story of immigration. It has always been a crossroads.
As mentioned above, if you go to Berlin and miss the historic Turkish neighborhoods, you did not see Berlin.
Here in Amsterdam the cartoon version is clogs and windmills but if you look down when you walk across the city you see all these little plaques on the sidewalk. They mark houses where Jewish families were taken away and the city's lively Jewish quarter was destroyed. People still come here to see Anne Frank's house and there's a prominent statue here of Spinoza, a Portuguese Jew. So there is something else going on.
If you are in downtown Lisbon, you will see right in the middle of the most touristy area of Rossio, lots of African looking men and women gathering, sitting, gossiping, playing games. A tourist like your Dad might just dismiss them as he looks for a Fado house, but the truth is that the square is a historic meeting place for the African community. They have been there since the 16th century.
We could all go on about Italian city-states (the "country" of italy is a new invention), Moorish Spain and try to find Germany on a 19th century map of Europe.
The point is that your Dad is depriving himself of seeing Europe which is the inverse of what he seems to think is the case.
posted by vacapinta at 1:14 AM on June 8, 2020
Each country does have its own unique culture. He is right about that. Where he is getting confused is:
He has some Disney cartoon version of each culture in his mind and then is upset that the real country does not match his expectations. In some sense, this is a variant of Paris syndrome. If he would take the time to let the culture unfold for him he would find a richer, deeper experience in traveling. The story of great cities in Europe is the story of immigration. It has always been a crossroads.
As mentioned above, if you go to Berlin and miss the historic Turkish neighborhoods, you did not see Berlin.
Here in Amsterdam the cartoon version is clogs and windmills but if you look down when you walk across the city you see all these little plaques on the sidewalk. They mark houses where Jewish families were taken away and the city's lively Jewish quarter was destroyed. People still come here to see Anne Frank's house and there's a prominent statue here of Spinoza, a Portuguese Jew. So there is something else going on.
If you are in downtown Lisbon, you will see right in the middle of the most touristy area of Rossio, lots of African looking men and women gathering, sitting, gossiping, playing games. A tourist like your Dad might just dismiss them as he looks for a Fado house, but the truth is that the square is a historic meeting place for the African community. They have been there since the 16th century.
We could all go on about Italian city-states (the "country" of italy is a new invention), Moorish Spain and try to find Germany on a 19th century map of Europe.
The point is that your Dad is depriving himself of seeing Europe which is the inverse of what he seems to think is the case.
posted by vacapinta at 1:14 AM on June 8, 2020
Tell him: We stand on the shoulder of giants. The wise choice is to take the best from everything you happen to come across. Kebab is yummy. We grow and evolve by learning new things and change.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:25 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by zengargoyle at 1:25 AM on June 8, 2020
To me the idea that European=white is basically far-right propaganda.
Well, the idea that Europe is white is far right propaganda, but they idea that Europe was white isn't. When you go to Paris, the number of non-white French people on the streets is notable if you've been there in the past 30+ years. To me, it's a real positive to see the ways in which Paris has changed; to your dad, it isn't. I think other people are correct that this is nostalgia being expressed in a way that is racist.
Unfortunately for your father, his formative experience of Europe can now only be replicated at EPCOT. You are not being racist if you acknowledge that that is painful for him.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:32 AM on June 8, 2020
Well, the idea that Europe is white is far right propaganda, but they idea that Europe was white isn't. When you go to Paris, the number of non-white French people on the streets is notable if you've been there in the past 30+ years. To me, it's a real positive to see the ways in which Paris has changed; to your dad, it isn't. I think other people are correct that this is nostalgia being expressed in a way that is racist.
Unfortunately for your father, his formative experience of Europe can now only be replicated at EPCOT. You are not being racist if you acknowledge that that is painful for him.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:32 AM on June 8, 2020
Is he also bothered by the presence of Starbucks, The Gap, and Budweiser?
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:38 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:38 AM on June 8, 2020
You're right, he's wrong, and that's hard to take because he's your dad.
Sorry this is difficult, but that's how it is.
posted by flabdablet at 1:47 AM on June 8, 2020
Sorry this is difficult, but that's how it is.
posted by flabdablet at 1:47 AM on June 8, 2020
You could ask your father how he feels about Quebec. After all language is a pretty big marker for culture. Maybe working through that discussion might give him room to reason through whether what he's really objecting to is change.
posted by rdr at 1:50 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by rdr at 1:50 AM on June 8, 2020
Well, the idea that Europe is white is far right propaganda, but they idea that Europe was white isn't.
So... the Roman Empire was so mixed the North African emperor Septimius Severus went with his Syrian wife to Hadrian's Wall and met a Black legionnary there, which was an amusing anecdote. You have Al-Andalus on the southwest, Sicily on the south and the Ottoman Empire on the east mixing things up, and there were way too many Black people in Tudor England for Elizabeth I's tastes. Same for Lisbon, or Venice. During the French Revolution there was an entire cavalry regiment of afro-descended volunteers, led by the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. Europe has never been white.
posted by sukeban at 2:19 AM on June 8, 2020
So... the Roman Empire was so mixed the North African emperor Septimius Severus went with his Syrian wife to Hadrian's Wall and met a Black legionnary there, which was an amusing anecdote. You have Al-Andalus on the southwest, Sicily on the south and the Ottoman Empire on the east mixing things up, and there were way too many Black people in Tudor England for Elizabeth I's tastes. Same for Lisbon, or Venice. During the French Revolution there was an entire cavalry regiment of afro-descended volunteers, led by the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. Europe has never been white.
posted by sukeban at 2:19 AM on June 8, 2020
You could explain that places with interesting culture are almost always based on an accretion of different layers of outsiders existing in minority communities. London's Brick Lane, for example exists in an area which has had immigration from Somalis, Bengalis (and hipsters) in recent times - before that Jews and Huguenots - and so on back to the times of the Romans. Sometimes an area can seem particularly "ethnic" because the immigration has been in recent years. In other places it happened centuries ago - but it still happened. People have always roamed the world, settled where they roamed and brought new ideas with them.
posted by rongorongo at 2:24 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by rongorongo at 2:24 AM on June 8, 2020
You could send him this Stewart Lee bit. As an American living in London whose parent's view of the place is defined by films like "Young Winston," and who wishes me "cheerio chin chin" all the time, I feel your pain.
posted by johngoren at 2:43 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by johngoren at 2:43 AM on June 8, 2020
Tell him Epcot Center is supposed to re-open in July if that’s the sort of travel experience he wants.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:02 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:02 AM on June 8, 2020
It would be an interesting exercise for him to write down all the positive things he associates with a particular place like Paris, and then think or learn more about each of them: when did they emerge, what existed before them, how did people react to them originally, what cultural, historical, or demographic changes were they associated with, etc.
For example, the Eiffel Tower raised a ton of objections at the time it was built, on behalf of the supposed "underestimated taste of the French, in the name of French art and history under threat". (All the articles on this subject talk about artists as the main protesters, but what are the odds that traditionalist citizens and tourists felt differently?) Learning about original reactions to things can help him see himself as part of a long tradition of people being upset when things change, of railing against the ephemerality of things they loved - which is part of the human experience, and always has been.
On the subject of the ephemerality of a place's character, he might like reading Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities.
On the subject of "each country having its own unique culture", he might read more about either European history in general or a specific country's regional history. France, like the rest of Europe, has and has always had strong local cultures different from, contributing to, and existing in tension with the national culture. If he doesn't like reading history, maybe contemporaneous writing from people in various parts of France, or members of regional independence movements, might be interesting to him. Or if he likes reading French literature he could keep an eye out for signs of that tension there (for example, Cyrano de Bergerac was from Gascony, as was his whole military unit, and there are a lot of references to cultural tensions between them and the Parisians).
Does Alexandre Dumas feel intrinsically French to him? Picasso? Marie Curie? Napoleon? How much of French culture developed without heavy external influences? Was it even possible for that to happen?
He might go through his list and think about what items would have changed over time even if French people today were 100% descended from Gauls. In what countries have new foods not become fads? In what countries is popular music today not different than what it was 60 years ago? In what countries have lifestyles remained static?
How did French people feel about café culture, when it emerged? (A lot has been written about this.) How did they feel about potatoes suddenly taking over their cuisine, or about the presence of pasta? (Less has been written about this, probably.) How do people feel about the influence of English on the French language? (He could spend his whole life reading reactions on that subject.)
Finally, he might consider how Parisians (and residents of other popular spots) feel about the presence of tourists in general, and North American tourists in particular, in their homes - do they feel that presence enhances, or clashes with, how they perceive their cities?
In short, instead of addressing the racism part head on, you could first try to make him do some work to address his ignorance in general, presenting it as a way of appreciating the cultures in question even more. If after all that he's still a cultural "purist", then you could talk about why.
posted by trig at 3:07 AM on June 8, 2020
For example, the Eiffel Tower raised a ton of objections at the time it was built, on behalf of the supposed "underestimated taste of the French, in the name of French art and history under threat". (All the articles on this subject talk about artists as the main protesters, but what are the odds that traditionalist citizens and tourists felt differently?) Learning about original reactions to things can help him see himself as part of a long tradition of people being upset when things change, of railing against the ephemerality of things they loved - which is part of the human experience, and always has been.
On the subject of the ephemerality of a place's character, he might like reading Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities.
On the subject of "each country having its own unique culture", he might read more about either European history in general or a specific country's regional history. France, like the rest of Europe, has and has always had strong local cultures different from, contributing to, and existing in tension with the national culture. If he doesn't like reading history, maybe contemporaneous writing from people in various parts of France, or members of regional independence movements, might be interesting to him. Or if he likes reading French literature he could keep an eye out for signs of that tension there (for example, Cyrano de Bergerac was from Gascony, as was his whole military unit, and there are a lot of references to cultural tensions between them and the Parisians).
Does Alexandre Dumas feel intrinsically French to him? Picasso? Marie Curie? Napoleon? How much of French culture developed without heavy external influences? Was it even possible for that to happen?
He might go through his list and think about what items would have changed over time even if French people today were 100% descended from Gauls. In what countries have new foods not become fads? In what countries is popular music today not different than what it was 60 years ago? In what countries have lifestyles remained static?
How did French people feel about café culture, when it emerged? (A lot has been written about this.) How did they feel about potatoes suddenly taking over their cuisine, or about the presence of pasta? (Less has been written about this, probably.) How do people feel about the influence of English on the French language? (He could spend his whole life reading reactions on that subject.)
Finally, he might consider how Parisians (and residents of other popular spots) feel about the presence of tourists in general, and North American tourists in particular, in their homes - do they feel that presence enhances, or clashes with, how they perceive their cities?
In short, instead of addressing the racism part head on, you could first try to make him do some work to address his ignorance in general, presenting it as a way of appreciating the cultures in question even more. If after all that he's still a cultural "purist", then you could talk about why.
posted by trig at 3:07 AM on June 8, 2020
You could also point him to resources designed to highlight the fact that medieval/early modern Europe wasn't a white-only place (like this, this and this). If he's mad about it, he's mad about the last thousand or so years of history rather than the last fifty.
posted by terretu at 3:27 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by terretu at 3:27 AM on June 8, 2020
You’ve explained your point of view and he’s said he’s “selfish,” not “racist.”
I don’t think there’s much point in trying to assign him thought experiments or coming up with arguments because what he is besides racist is entitled. He thinks he’s entitled to air racist views even he knows are ridiculous and to your agreement about his needs as a tourist being paramount.
I’d just say “Dad, every time you talk to me about this my opinion of you goes down” and let him stew in it.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:41 AM on June 8, 2020
I don’t think there’s much point in trying to assign him thought experiments or coming up with arguments because what he is besides racist is entitled. He thinks he’s entitled to air racist views even he knows are ridiculous and to your agreement about his needs as a tourist being paramount.
I’d just say “Dad, every time you talk to me about this my opinion of you goes down” and let him stew in it.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:41 AM on June 8, 2020
I grew up in Germany and two of the things I miss most are gelaterias (always run by 1st generation Italian immigrants) and Döner Kebab (a Turkish immigrant invention). They are super German to me - so typical of German cities you’ll find them on every city block.
The ‘clean’ monolithic culture presented to tourists (Lederhosen etc) is not necessarily what actual Germans perceive as their own; it’s theatre for Americans (or Canadians as the case may be). It’s what sells.
I dunno, if he’s interested in actual European culture, not tourist theater, I think he’ll find that is true everywhere he goes. Tackling the racism head on might be hard, telling him no, this is what actual Europeans think Europe is about might be a bit easier.
posted by The Toad at 3:42 AM on June 8, 2020
The ‘clean’ monolithic culture presented to tourists (Lederhosen etc) is not necessarily what actual Germans perceive as their own; it’s theatre for Americans (or Canadians as the case may be). It’s what sells.
I dunno, if he’s interested in actual European culture, not tourist theater, I think he’ll find that is true everywhere he goes. Tackling the racism head on might be hard, telling him no, this is what actual Europeans think Europe is about might be a bit easier.
posted by The Toad at 3:42 AM on June 8, 2020
Does he have similar feelings about immigration in Canada? If not, why not?
It's a somewhat rhetorical question, but might help you distinguish between the poles of "Dad is a racist" and "Dad is looking for tourism theater."
P.S. If your dad responds to pedantry, crepes are not Parisian; they come from Brittany, so-named because it was the land of the Britons. It's also a food that's been replicated or independently developed across the world, because the idea of "crispy thin pancake with sweet or savory filling" is a brilliant and delicious idea. Mmmm crepes/dosa/blini.
posted by basalganglia at 3:56 AM on June 8, 2020
It's a somewhat rhetorical question, but might help you distinguish between the poles of "Dad is a racist" and "Dad is looking for tourism theater."
P.S. If your dad responds to pedantry, crepes are not Parisian; they come from Brittany, so-named because it was the land of the Britons. It's also a food that's been replicated or independently developed across the world, because the idea of "crispy thin pancake with sweet or savory filling" is a brilliant and delicious idea. Mmmm crepes/dosa/blini.
posted by basalganglia at 3:56 AM on June 8, 2020
Nthing the thing about crepes being a Breton thing, so a crepe shop being in Paris is already an example of an outside importing a foodstuff.
Also - it may be worth pointing out that a lot of the countries in Europe were colonizers elsewhere in the world, and the indigenous cultures of the countries they colonized were already leaving their mark. For instance, "French culture" has been influenced by the countries of Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Vietnam, and the islands of the French Caribbean.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:18 AM on June 8, 2020
Also - it may be worth pointing out that a lot of the countries in Europe were colonizers elsewhere in the world, and the indigenous cultures of the countries they colonized were already leaving their mark. For instance, "French culture" has been influenced by the countries of Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Vietnam, and the islands of the French Caribbean.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:18 AM on June 8, 2020
Does he read fiction? If so, you could suggest he tries novels showing places as multi-cultural - Andrea Levy's Small Island, for instance.
posted by paduasoy at 4:30 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by paduasoy at 4:30 AM on June 8, 2020
One more psychological aspect that occurred to me is that maybe revisiting an area he's been to before, and discovering that it has changed, challenged his self-perception as someone who's "mastered" that area to some extent. Maybe he used to be able to say "Yeah, I know Paris pretty well, if you want a great crepe you can go to X street, ..." Now, because that street has changed, he might feel more of a stranger there than he did before - which raises the unpleasant truth that really, he always was a stranger, and Paris was never his. Even though the quality of his knowledge or "belonging" was always superficial - it was a tourist's belonging and a tourist's knowledge - it probably still meant something to him. Seeing change like that can really drive home the fact that the Paris that he doesn't know absolutely dwarfs the Paris that he did. That's a fact that can be met with humility, curiosity, and wonder. Or it can be met with alienation and an entitled sense of grievance. Helping him to be explore the emotional root of his reaction might help him change his choice, to one more in line with his values.
posted by trig at 5:02 AM on June 8, 2020
posted by trig at 5:02 AM on June 8, 2020
Your father might also consider the fact that, depending on when he used to visit (but if he's in his early 70s, it can't have been earlier than...what, the 1950s?), in W Europe the populations he objects to as ruining this white-ethnostate fantasy* were mostly already here. Working here, living here, contributing to making European cities what they are. It's just that they were even more segregated geographically and socially than they are today, so neither he nor probably a good number of white Europeans would really have interacted with them on a day-to-day basis. In short, nothing has been "lost", it's just that now he can see what he didn't before. And, if he considers himself a "good liberal white guy", he needs to find a way to get on board with that. You can still eat galettes till you see double before enjoying a Racine piece at the Comédie and then go spend nine hours at the Louvre looking at exclusively Euro artists. It's just that you can no longer pretend that that represents all of France or of Europe.
*I'm sorry that that sounds extremely harsh, but especially now we need to call this stuff what it is. A lot of my impatience stems from living over here for some time and watching fashy, racist political groups appeal to this totally ahistorical myth to justify hurting people. Naming it, as smoke suggests above, might also help him realize how harmful this attitude is. He is NOT the only person, on any continent, who has this attitude and he is certainly not the youngest.
posted by peakes at 5:07 AM on June 8, 2020
*I'm sorry that that sounds extremely harsh, but especially now we need to call this stuff what it is. A lot of my impatience stems from living over here for some time and watching fashy, racist political groups appeal to this totally ahistorical myth to justify hurting people. Naming it, as smoke suggests above, might also help him realize how harmful this attitude is. He is NOT the only person, on any continent, who has this attitude and he is certainly not the youngest.
posted by peakes at 5:07 AM on June 8, 2020
I'm trying to learn Basque. Something I've learned is that Basque people call their language Euskara, and they call themselves euskaldunak, literally, "the people who have the Basque language". They regard anyone who speaks their language euskaldun. I'll never get to point where I could call myself euskaldun without qualifications (and that's not my ambition), but immigrant kids who start learning the language childhood can, and if they speak the language natively, they're regarded as Basque by other Basque speakers. I doesn't matter if they don't have Basque ancestry or don't look Basque. What matters is being part the language community.
I've also run into children of people whose parents immigrated from Basque Country to other countries, who don't consider themselves to be euskaldun, even though their parents are native speakers. They know what that word means, and they don't think they speak their parents' language well enough to claim that term.
This is just one ethnic group in one little corner of Europe, but it illustrates that not everyone sees ethnicity as a matter of race and ancestry the way most North Americans do.
posted by nangar at 5:14 AM on June 8, 2020
I've also run into children of people whose parents immigrated from Basque Country to other countries, who don't consider themselves to be euskaldun, even though their parents are native speakers. They know what that word means, and they don't think they speak their parents' language well enough to claim that term.
This is just one ethnic group in one little corner of Europe, but it illustrates that not everyone sees ethnicity as a matter of race and ancestry the way most North Americans do.
posted by nangar at 5:14 AM on June 8, 2020
When I said that this is quite racist he became very defensive. He told me that he would be just as bothered by Germans living in France, or Dutch people living in Sweden (however it is obvious that what makes him uncomfortable are nonwhite people, since he would assume that a white Italian person walking around Helsinki would automatically be Finnish).
That's a non-sequitur. He's not talking about people walking on the street, he's talking about culture. A better example would be his favorite French restaurants being replaced with German ones.
But anyway, count me as someone who misses Paris from the eighties. And Rome, and Munich, and my old neighborhood in Sunnyvale, California. The places we had our formative experiences change, and we can never get them back.
It's tempting to blame immigrants, as if the place would have stayed the same if they weren't there. But Sunnyvale changed because semiconductor manufacturing was sent to Asia, the Navy left, Lockheed-Martin left, and HP crashed among other things.
So that is what I would say to your father: immigrants are represented, but the place was going to change anyway. Cultures move on regardless of who moves in.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:18 AM on June 8, 2020
That's a non-sequitur. He's not talking about people walking on the street, he's talking about culture. A better example would be his favorite French restaurants being replaced with German ones.
But anyway, count me as someone who misses Paris from the eighties. And Rome, and Munich, and my old neighborhood in Sunnyvale, California. The places we had our formative experiences change, and we can never get them back.
It's tempting to blame immigrants, as if the place would have stayed the same if they weren't there. But Sunnyvale changed because semiconductor manufacturing was sent to Asia, the Navy left, Lockheed-Martin left, and HP crashed among other things.
So that is what I would say to your father: immigrants are represented, but the place was going to change anyway. Cultures move on regardless of who moves in.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:18 AM on June 8, 2020
Sometimes, when I suffer from nostalgia for a previous time, I try to remind myself of how it really was. I could afford to eat an excellent five course lunch when I lived in Rome as an exchange student because Rome and the Romans were even poorer than we were in Denmark, and we were already very poor compared to now. My apartment in Copenhagen at the time could not be heated above 14 C, and had no bath or hot water. I had good times in both places because I was young, had friends, loved my studies. The Rome of my youth has disappeared, but now there is an other Rome which I learn more about every time I go there. The Copenhagen of my youth has disappeared, but now there is another Copenhagen, and I like it much better in many ways, though I do feel nostalgia for those long days and nights of rambling about the inner city with my friends. My own young adult kids are almost never in that inner city, but they still walk around with their friends, sit with one coffee for two hours at a café, and dance all night at clubs. It's just in completely different parts of the city. I like how that has happened.
One of my old friends from back then has moved to France, I think 30 years ago. Sometimes he comes here with colleagues to show them around, and sometimes he invites me along. Though I try to gently nudge him to explore the new Copenhagen, the city of those who live here, he wants to show his colleagues the city he remembers, which doesn't really exist anymore. I mean, physically it exists, but the bars where we once had beers and open-faced sandwiches have become tourist traps. The jazzclub that had a wonderful night disco has become a place for the suburban hoards, not the gritty urban youth of our day. And yes, the main streets where we once were sure to meet all our friends in an age where no one had a cell phone, many faces are now Arab or Turkish or Asian. In many stores and cafés, you can't order in Danish, mainly because the staff are from Sweden. My friend never complains, he just talks about the old times, the memories. Maybe your dad is like my friend, unwilling or unable let go of the old times.
Or maybe you can nudge him, suggest that he explores the popular new bistro culture in Paris or the elegant ancient Couscous places which are so traditional a part of French culture. Help him find blogs with ressources about contemporary culture in the cities he loves. Last time I was in Barcelona for work, the University there was so broke they got me a room in someone's uncles apartment, in a not at all touristy area. It was a great new experience, the uncle was good at pointing out places to go, and I loved approaching the city from a new angle. Living in a new area can make a huge change.
posted by mumimor at 7:19 AM on June 8, 2020
One of my old friends from back then has moved to France, I think 30 years ago. Sometimes he comes here with colleagues to show them around, and sometimes he invites me along. Though I try to gently nudge him to explore the new Copenhagen, the city of those who live here, he wants to show his colleagues the city he remembers, which doesn't really exist anymore. I mean, physically it exists, but the bars where we once had beers and open-faced sandwiches have become tourist traps. The jazzclub that had a wonderful night disco has become a place for the suburban hoards, not the gritty urban youth of our day. And yes, the main streets where we once were sure to meet all our friends in an age where no one had a cell phone, many faces are now Arab or Turkish or Asian. In many stores and cafés, you can't order in Danish, mainly because the staff are from Sweden. My friend never complains, he just talks about the old times, the memories. Maybe your dad is like my friend, unwilling or unable let go of the old times.
Or maybe you can nudge him, suggest that he explores the popular new bistro culture in Paris or the elegant ancient Couscous places which are so traditional a part of French culture. Help him find blogs with ressources about contemporary culture in the cities he loves. Last time I was in Barcelona for work, the University there was so broke they got me a room in someone's uncles apartment, in a not at all touristy area. It was a great new experience, the uncle was good at pointing out places to go, and I loved approaching the city from a new angle. Living in a new area can make a huge change.
posted by mumimor at 7:19 AM on June 8, 2020
I get pretty flustered when I argue so I am hoping to find some other things to say to him, or some resources.
Dear OP, you asked for resources. I recommend two things. First, please read this great Captain Awkward reply to a question involving Facebook and racist relatives. The reply starts like this:
I made an action plan for you and for any of my fellow white readers who are getting sucked into the same set of racist Facebook arguments with family we’ve been having since there was a Facebook that also serves to answer the influx of “I want to help but what do I actually do” questions.
Second, since you dislike debates and arguing, consider trying a different approach. There are plenty to try, including a technique described in this famous Modern Love column.
Another is to try simply redirecting your dad every time he brings it up: "I know Dad, you've told me. Hey, why did you decide to go to Europe the first time anyway?" (Or totally unrelated, safer topic that gives him a chance to talk.)
Maybe he is trying to talk about how change is upsetting generally. Maybe he is getting older and afraid of dying and doesn't recognize that or know how to say that. In which case, consider saying something like, "Change is really hard. Do you worry about changes in your life, not just in Europe?"
My beloved, life-long racist dad gave me many opportunities to practice Al-Anon (a group for the friends and families of alcoholics) principles before he died, and the most important one was learning to set boundaries. My dad's racism had been an issue long before he died but I wasn't smart enough to just stop arguing with him.
Then I joined Al-Anon and learned to say, "Don't say that word in front of me. If you do, I will leave." And then if he used a racial or anti-Semitic slur or started telling a racist joke, I would just get up quietly and leave for a leisurely stroll around the block. By the time I got back, he had moved on to other topics. Or I would go to the library or whatever.
That shit was not okay with me but I didn't need to argue him into agreement or out of his racism, which was never going to happen. I just needed him to stop being overtly racist in my presence. That was my boundary. He wanted me around during my visits, so he learned to shut up.
Consider asking yourself if attempting to convince your racist dad (or any other racist relative you have) to stop being racist is the best use of your time right now. Ijeoma Oluo says no. This dad stuff is super stressful. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:03 AM on June 8, 2020
Dear OP, you asked for resources. I recommend two things. First, please read this great Captain Awkward reply to a question involving Facebook and racist relatives. The reply starts like this:
I made an action plan for you and for any of my fellow white readers who are getting sucked into the same set of racist Facebook arguments with family we’ve been having since there was a Facebook that also serves to answer the influx of “I want to help but what do I actually do” questions.
Second, since you dislike debates and arguing, consider trying a different approach. There are plenty to try, including a technique described in this famous Modern Love column.
Another is to try simply redirecting your dad every time he brings it up: "I know Dad, you've told me. Hey, why did you decide to go to Europe the first time anyway?" (Or totally unrelated, safer topic that gives him a chance to talk.)
Maybe he is trying to talk about how change is upsetting generally. Maybe he is getting older and afraid of dying and doesn't recognize that or know how to say that. In which case, consider saying something like, "Change is really hard. Do you worry about changes in your life, not just in Europe?"
My beloved, life-long racist dad gave me many opportunities to practice Al-Anon (a group for the friends and families of alcoholics) principles before he died, and the most important one was learning to set boundaries. My dad's racism had been an issue long before he died but I wasn't smart enough to just stop arguing with him.
Then I joined Al-Anon and learned to say, "Don't say that word in front of me. If you do, I will leave." And then if he used a racial or anti-Semitic slur or started telling a racist joke, I would just get up quietly and leave for a leisurely stroll around the block. By the time I got back, he had moved on to other topics. Or I would go to the library or whatever.
That shit was not okay with me but I didn't need to argue him into agreement or out of his racism, which was never going to happen. I just needed him to stop being overtly racist in my presence. That was my boundary. He wanted me around during my visits, so he learned to shut up.
Consider asking yourself if attempting to convince your racist dad (or any other racist relative you have) to stop being racist is the best use of your time right now. Ijeoma Oluo says no. This dad stuff is super stressful. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:03 AM on June 8, 2020
You could point out that many of the well-established immigrant communities in Europe are the consequence of migration from the host nation's colonies. They arrived as citizens of the nations they settled in.
This is particularly true of the UK's Afro-Caribbean community who arrived shortly after WWII in response to labour shortages. They went on to have an enormous impact on the culture and character of the nation, most notably in London's Notting Hill. Tragically the subject of a major scandal a couple of years ago, about which I am still fuming, because when we talk about London's cosmopolitan character, it is largely thanks to the initiatives of this very generation, and the city is all the better for it.
Having said that, your father's attitude might find some sympathy among emigres of his own generation, such as Othman from Knightsbridge, who preferred the place before the shisha lounges opened.
“Knightsbridge then became a republic of the Gulf. You feel (as if you are) in the heart of Riyadh, Beirut or Dubai. It didn’t work for me for one reason: I enjoy being in London. If I want to go to the Middle East, I’ll go to the Middle East.”
While I strongly disagree with this, it is by no means a unique view. I can tell you for nothing it was shared by our neighbours the Patels, who, having brought their young family to London from India in the early 1970's, moved to the States a few years later for much the same reason. Perhaps they anticipated a tidal wave of racism, and thought they'd do better in the US.
I'm very glad I grew up in a mixed neighbourhood, and I can't imagine London any other way. But it has changed enormously even in my lifetime, and sustaining a multicultural civic identity is a complicated business. I would suggest that rather than scolding your father for being racist, you use the opportunity to talk about the meaning of diversity in urban environments, how different cultures interact in them, and the legacy of colonialism that formed them?
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 8:04 AM on June 8, 2020
This is particularly true of the UK's Afro-Caribbean community who arrived shortly after WWII in response to labour shortages. They went on to have an enormous impact on the culture and character of the nation, most notably in London's Notting Hill. Tragically the subject of a major scandal a couple of years ago, about which I am still fuming, because when we talk about London's cosmopolitan character, it is largely thanks to the initiatives of this very generation, and the city is all the better for it.
Having said that, your father's attitude might find some sympathy among emigres of his own generation, such as Othman from Knightsbridge, who preferred the place before the shisha lounges opened.
“Knightsbridge then became a republic of the Gulf. You feel (as if you are) in the heart of Riyadh, Beirut or Dubai. It didn’t work for me for one reason: I enjoy being in London. If I want to go to the Middle East, I’ll go to the Middle East.”
While I strongly disagree with this, it is by no means a unique view. I can tell you for nothing it was shared by our neighbours the Patels, who, having brought their young family to London from India in the early 1970's, moved to the States a few years later for much the same reason. Perhaps they anticipated a tidal wave of racism, and thought they'd do better in the US.
I'm very glad I grew up in a mixed neighbourhood, and I can't imagine London any other way. But it has changed enormously even in my lifetime, and sustaining a multicultural civic identity is a complicated business. I would suggest that rather than scolding your father for being racist, you use the opportunity to talk about the meaning of diversity in urban environments, how different cultures interact in them, and the legacy of colonialism that formed them?
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 8:04 AM on June 8, 2020
I've thought a lot about this, because I used to be your dad. I realized that this is problematic (and logically inconsistent), and so I really tried to figure out why I felt this way, and how I could address this in myself.
My as-yet only trip to Europe was to Switzerland, to some pretty touristy spots (including Lucerne and Interlaken). I had done a lot of reading about food and culture beforehand, and so it was surprising to me when I got there that a lot of the restaurants were not sausage-and-fondue chalets, but rather Chinese, Thai, Indian, etc. restaurants, many of seemingly dubious quality. As a first-timer, I had hoped to experience "European culture", and instead I was seeing strip-mall Chinese joints that looked like the ones back in Ohio (more on that later). There were a lot of Asian tourists, as well, which was striking. Then the thought occurred to me that I'm just as much a foreigner as they are. Why is it OK for me to be there, bringing my American culture, but there's something different about Asians? It doesn't make sense. They're there for the same reason I was: because Switzerland is beautiful and welcoming and fun. We are not so different, as it turns out.
The contrast was thrown into further relief on our first night there. We were in Switzerland for our honeymoon, and so we'd had a rehearsal dinner, Catholic wedding and reception, and transatlantic flight all in under 60 hours. We were exhausted, and with Switzerland being as expensive as it is, we just wanted to eat something cheap and easy so we could go to bed and rest up for the rest of the trip. We found a fast food restaurant near our hotel called New York Food, and I ordered... a cheeseburger, fries, and a slice of pizza. Again, how is this any different from Chinese tourists eating Chinese food? From Indian immigrants eating curry? From anyone eating McDonalds?
On a similar note, if I'm so bothered by Chinese food in Switzerland, why am I not bothered by it in the US? I don't eat a lot of Chinese food, but there are some Chinese takeout places that are essential to the culture of the neighborhoods I've lived in. The same goes for all sorts of other "non-American" food. A few years ago, a Filipino restaurant opened around the corner from my old apartment. How different and interesting! (I'm aware that this sentiment is problematic for the opposite reason.) I do not want to live in a world without Taco Tuesdays; maybe Doner Donnerstag is a thing? (If not, it should be.) At this point, food from other cultures is an essential part of American culture. Likewise, chicken tikka masala is essential to England, rijstafel is essential to the Netherlands, couscous is essential to France. Kebabs are kind of everywhere.
Here's a more striking example: One country with a unique food culture (to use your dad's phrase) is Italy, right? There's nothing more Italian than pasta with tomato sauce. Except... pasta noodles are an adaptation of noodles that Marco Polo brought back from China, and tomatoes were unknown in Europe before the discovery of the New World. From the perspective of a 16th-century person living in Siena, both spaghetti marinara AND doner kebab are foreign. Culture is always borrowing from others and turning it into something new. I, personally, am glad that the Italians incorporated pasta and tomatoes (and potatoes - gnocchi!) into their cuisine, and then Italian immigrants brought it over and adapted it to American culture. What would "authentic" European food look like without tomatoes, potatoes, spices, etc.? Old bread and vegetable stew? And what right do any of us, as tourists, have to tell Europeans that they should eat to be "authentic"? They can make their own decisions, and they have: they eat a lot of kebabs.
This is why some people here are talking about "theme parks". Freezing a culture at any given point is necessarily artificial. The thing is, if you want theme parks, Europe has them. There's Ballenberg in Switzerland, for example, or Skansen in Sweden. But you can't expect Zurich or Stockholm to be like that, any more than you could expect New York to be like Colonial Williamsburg. Even more, if someone were to force New York to be like Colonial Williamsburg, quite a bit would be lost there - more would be lost than gained. The same is true for Europe.
The conclusion I ultimately came to is that it's a mistake to associate land with culture. There's unquestionably some linkage, of course. Certain foods are associated with certain cultures because that's the kind of thing that grows on certain types of land. But the notion that there's a hexagonally-shaped patch of land in western Europe that is "French" is a fallacy. There is a lot of Frenchness in that hexagonal area, but there's also Frenchness in Geneva, just outside that hexagon, or in Quebec, across the ocean, or the hallway of my high school when our French Club served crepes. And within the hexagon, there are other cultures too. Basque, as someone mentioned, which is European but not French. Breton, which is kind of French and kind of not. North Africa, West African, Middle Eastern, American. And, since Europe is mostly capitalist, these businesses are there because people want them to be there. It's not like the government of France decreed that a certain neighborhood is going to be the kebab-restaurant neighborhood, and shut down all the creperies to make room. People who live there just wanted to eat at kebab restaurants, and restaurateurs responded to the demand. And they stay open because people like them. Likewise, there are still plenty of creperies in France, where enough people want crepes often enough to keep a creperie open.
There's a tension between high and low culture that's kind of below the surface here. As Americans, we tend to see European culture as high culture: "German culture" is Goethe and Bach, "French culture" is Monet and Proust. True, but the average person is not reading Goethe or Proust. Low culture is not always apparent to us, and even when it is, we dismiss it as "not real culture". That's part of what's going on with the kebab stuff. White Europeans seem to like kebabs too; it's not just a brown-person thing. But because it's coming from the bottom up, instead of top-down like an August Escoffier book or something, it's not "really" European culture. I think we do a better job of recognizing the validity of street culture in non-western cultures, in part because we don't have centuries of canon to contend with. On the flipside, white European low culture is not always something to celebrate and preserve. Think of Millwall soccer hooligans. We act like we get to decide what counts as authentic, but we don't.
Finally, now that I'm back in the US, it's pretty nice that I don't have to spend a thousand dollars and hours on a plane if I want to get Swiss food again. My wife bought me a raclette grill, Emmentaler and Gruyere are widely available in stores, and I can order Rivella online. I can have a Swiss feast in my own house. And then the next day, I can go to a Brazilian restaurant. And after that, some Chinese takeout. And if one day, I don't want food from another culture, there's plenty of American food around, too. There are benefits to diversity, indeed. This has taken on greater significance for me now that I no longer live where I grew up. I still live in the US, but in a different region, with different food. Every once in a while, I'll come across a grocery store that stocks Skyline Chili, and I'll be elated. A taste of home! It makes it easy to empathize with non-white Europeans (or any immigrants): they're probably as happy to be able to eat kebabs in their new home as I am to eat a three-way in my new home. (Probably more so, considering the challenges...)
So that's some of my thinking on the topic. It's taken me six years to get to the point where my response to myself is even semi-coherent. I don't expect your dad to come around overnight. The thing is, though, this is such an intellectually interesting question that it can take some of the sting out of the personal difficulty associated with admitting your own racial biases. For me, it helped me to realize that the distinction between myself and The Other was arbitrary in some instances, and nonexistent in others. Realizing that you are part of the problem you're complaining about creates a cognitive dissonance that demands some sort of resolution. I realized I was wrong before I could fully articulate why I was wrong, and that's important too.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:22 AM on June 8, 2020
My as-yet only trip to Europe was to Switzerland, to some pretty touristy spots (including Lucerne and Interlaken). I had done a lot of reading about food and culture beforehand, and so it was surprising to me when I got there that a lot of the restaurants were not sausage-and-fondue chalets, but rather Chinese, Thai, Indian, etc. restaurants, many of seemingly dubious quality. As a first-timer, I had hoped to experience "European culture", and instead I was seeing strip-mall Chinese joints that looked like the ones back in Ohio (more on that later). There were a lot of Asian tourists, as well, which was striking. Then the thought occurred to me that I'm just as much a foreigner as they are. Why is it OK for me to be there, bringing my American culture, but there's something different about Asians? It doesn't make sense. They're there for the same reason I was: because Switzerland is beautiful and welcoming and fun. We are not so different, as it turns out.
The contrast was thrown into further relief on our first night there. We were in Switzerland for our honeymoon, and so we'd had a rehearsal dinner, Catholic wedding and reception, and transatlantic flight all in under 60 hours. We were exhausted, and with Switzerland being as expensive as it is, we just wanted to eat something cheap and easy so we could go to bed and rest up for the rest of the trip. We found a fast food restaurant near our hotel called New York Food, and I ordered... a cheeseburger, fries, and a slice of pizza. Again, how is this any different from Chinese tourists eating Chinese food? From Indian immigrants eating curry? From anyone eating McDonalds?
On a similar note, if I'm so bothered by Chinese food in Switzerland, why am I not bothered by it in the US? I don't eat a lot of Chinese food, but there are some Chinese takeout places that are essential to the culture of the neighborhoods I've lived in. The same goes for all sorts of other "non-American" food. A few years ago, a Filipino restaurant opened around the corner from my old apartment. How different and interesting! (I'm aware that this sentiment is problematic for the opposite reason.) I do not want to live in a world without Taco Tuesdays; maybe Doner Donnerstag is a thing? (If not, it should be.) At this point, food from other cultures is an essential part of American culture. Likewise, chicken tikka masala is essential to England, rijstafel is essential to the Netherlands, couscous is essential to France. Kebabs are kind of everywhere.
Here's a more striking example: One country with a unique food culture (to use your dad's phrase) is Italy, right? There's nothing more Italian than pasta with tomato sauce. Except... pasta noodles are an adaptation of noodles that Marco Polo brought back from China, and tomatoes were unknown in Europe before the discovery of the New World. From the perspective of a 16th-century person living in Siena, both spaghetti marinara AND doner kebab are foreign. Culture is always borrowing from others and turning it into something new. I, personally, am glad that the Italians incorporated pasta and tomatoes (and potatoes - gnocchi!) into their cuisine, and then Italian immigrants brought it over and adapted it to American culture. What would "authentic" European food look like without tomatoes, potatoes, spices, etc.? Old bread and vegetable stew? And what right do any of us, as tourists, have to tell Europeans that they should eat to be "authentic"? They can make their own decisions, and they have: they eat a lot of kebabs.
This is why some people here are talking about "theme parks". Freezing a culture at any given point is necessarily artificial. The thing is, if you want theme parks, Europe has them. There's Ballenberg in Switzerland, for example, or Skansen in Sweden. But you can't expect Zurich or Stockholm to be like that, any more than you could expect New York to be like Colonial Williamsburg. Even more, if someone were to force New York to be like Colonial Williamsburg, quite a bit would be lost there - more would be lost than gained. The same is true for Europe.
The conclusion I ultimately came to is that it's a mistake to associate land with culture. There's unquestionably some linkage, of course. Certain foods are associated with certain cultures because that's the kind of thing that grows on certain types of land. But the notion that there's a hexagonally-shaped patch of land in western Europe that is "French" is a fallacy. There is a lot of Frenchness in that hexagonal area, but there's also Frenchness in Geneva, just outside that hexagon, or in Quebec, across the ocean, or the hallway of my high school when our French Club served crepes. And within the hexagon, there are other cultures too. Basque, as someone mentioned, which is European but not French. Breton, which is kind of French and kind of not. North Africa, West African, Middle Eastern, American. And, since Europe is mostly capitalist, these businesses are there because people want them to be there. It's not like the government of France decreed that a certain neighborhood is going to be the kebab-restaurant neighborhood, and shut down all the creperies to make room. People who live there just wanted to eat at kebab restaurants, and restaurateurs responded to the demand. And they stay open because people like them. Likewise, there are still plenty of creperies in France, where enough people want crepes often enough to keep a creperie open.
There's a tension between high and low culture that's kind of below the surface here. As Americans, we tend to see European culture as high culture: "German culture" is Goethe and Bach, "French culture" is Monet and Proust. True, but the average person is not reading Goethe or Proust. Low culture is not always apparent to us, and even when it is, we dismiss it as "not real culture". That's part of what's going on with the kebab stuff. White Europeans seem to like kebabs too; it's not just a brown-person thing. But because it's coming from the bottom up, instead of top-down like an August Escoffier book or something, it's not "really" European culture. I think we do a better job of recognizing the validity of street culture in non-western cultures, in part because we don't have centuries of canon to contend with. On the flipside, white European low culture is not always something to celebrate and preserve. Think of Millwall soccer hooligans. We act like we get to decide what counts as authentic, but we don't.
Finally, now that I'm back in the US, it's pretty nice that I don't have to spend a thousand dollars and hours on a plane if I want to get Swiss food again. My wife bought me a raclette grill, Emmentaler and Gruyere are widely available in stores, and I can order Rivella online. I can have a Swiss feast in my own house. And then the next day, I can go to a Brazilian restaurant. And after that, some Chinese takeout. And if one day, I don't want food from another culture, there's plenty of American food around, too. There are benefits to diversity, indeed. This has taken on greater significance for me now that I no longer live where I grew up. I still live in the US, but in a different region, with different food. Every once in a while, I'll come across a grocery store that stocks Skyline Chili, and I'll be elated. A taste of home! It makes it easy to empathize with non-white Europeans (or any immigrants): they're probably as happy to be able to eat kebabs in their new home as I am to eat a three-way in my new home. (Probably more so, considering the challenges...)
So that's some of my thinking on the topic. It's taken me six years to get to the point where my response to myself is even semi-coherent. I don't expect your dad to come around overnight. The thing is, though, this is such an intellectually interesting question that it can take some of the sting out of the personal difficulty associated with admitting your own racial biases. For me, it helped me to realize that the distinction between myself and The Other was arbitrary in some instances, and nonexistent in others. Realizing that you are part of the problem you're complaining about creates a cognitive dissonance that demands some sort of resolution. I realized I was wrong before I could fully articulate why I was wrong, and that's important too.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:22 AM on June 8, 2020
I mean definitely have some fish and chips and a Sunday Roast at a pub
Fish and chips were invented by the British Jewish community - and the potatoes themselves are, of course, a New World species.
Europe has been multicultural since before a bunch of Germanic-speaking Franks moved in and rules over Romance speaking people - and thus invented "French". When I had the privilege of visiting Paris, I enjoyed duck with cream sauce at a French-style restaurant AND kebabs from the schwarma place down the street (only they called it Le Grec, which was funny considering the staff were Turkish). I bought pain au chocolate at the bakery run by a woman in a hijab - and when we visited the Basilica St Denis (burial place of the French kings), the children preparing for the Easter celebrations were mostly people of colour. This is what France really is.
But back to your question: yes, I think you need to explain to your dad that what he's looking for is a theme-park experience which has never existed, ala Medieval Times. Consider even the food he mentioned: crepes with SUGAR, a colonial crop which has always been grown by people of colour. Traditional European cuisine has no sugar, no potatoes (no perogies, no chips), no chocolate or coffee or tea. It's basically bread, beer, cheese and bacon - and even the bread and beer originally came from the middle east (okay, in the neolithic period).
posted by jb at 9:17 AM on June 8, 2020
Fish and chips were invented by the British Jewish community - and the potatoes themselves are, of course, a New World species.
Europe has been multicultural since before a bunch of Germanic-speaking Franks moved in and rules over Romance speaking people - and thus invented "French". When I had the privilege of visiting Paris, I enjoyed duck with cream sauce at a French-style restaurant AND kebabs from the schwarma place down the street (only they called it Le Grec, which was funny considering the staff were Turkish). I bought pain au chocolate at the bakery run by a woman in a hijab - and when we visited the Basilica St Denis (burial place of the French kings), the children preparing for the Easter celebrations were mostly people of colour. This is what France really is.
But back to your question: yes, I think you need to explain to your dad that what he's looking for is a theme-park experience which has never existed, ala Medieval Times. Consider even the food he mentioned: crepes with SUGAR, a colonial crop which has always been grown by people of colour. Traditional European cuisine has no sugar, no potatoes (no perogies, no chips), no chocolate or coffee or tea. It's basically bread, beer, cheese and bacon - and even the bread and beer originally came from the middle east (okay, in the neolithic period).
posted by jb at 9:17 AM on June 8, 2020
This ask has really gotten me thinking.
One of the places that are really transformed by tourism is Venice. I think most Venetians will agree that the soul and character of Venice is threatened by tourism and also by immigrants taking over the businesses there, and on the other hand, tourism is the main income in Venice, and Venice has always been a city of commerce and diversity. I go to Venice at least every second year for biennales as part of my job, but actually most years. I thought of buying an apartment there when I had the ressources.
Now, one of my favorite bars has been taken over by a Chinese family. I've stopped going there, and this thread won't change my mind, but it has definitely changed my thinking about it. The bar is in an excellent setting, and was well known to have great drinks and lovely tramezzini. The new owners don't at all get how to do that, so it has been transformed from a local hangout where tourists were lucky to get a seat to only serving tourists and mainly Asians. After reading this thread I realized that the new owners are living the exact same dream as many Englishmen who have started little bnb's in Tuscany or Germans running a hotel on a Greek island. They both fail and win in exactly the same way. Can we blame them? In a way, they are amazing.
Also there is something I thought about writing about already in my first comment, but gave up on, but here it comes: Europe in the fifties and sixties had lost more than 7 million of it's diverse population during the Nazis and Fascists. Though most were Jews, Roma and millions of others that didn't fit into Nazi ideology were killed. Other millions fled. Post-war Europe was an abnormal time, that didn't reflect the diversity of most of Europe's existence.
posted by mumimor at 10:12 AM on June 8, 2020
One of the places that are really transformed by tourism is Venice. I think most Venetians will agree that the soul and character of Venice is threatened by tourism and also by immigrants taking over the businesses there, and on the other hand, tourism is the main income in Venice, and Venice has always been a city of commerce and diversity. I go to Venice at least every second year for biennales as part of my job, but actually most years. I thought of buying an apartment there when I had the ressources.
Now, one of my favorite bars has been taken over by a Chinese family. I've stopped going there, and this thread won't change my mind, but it has definitely changed my thinking about it. The bar is in an excellent setting, and was well known to have great drinks and lovely tramezzini. The new owners don't at all get how to do that, so it has been transformed from a local hangout where tourists were lucky to get a seat to only serving tourists and mainly Asians. After reading this thread I realized that the new owners are living the exact same dream as many Englishmen who have started little bnb's in Tuscany or Germans running a hotel on a Greek island. They both fail and win in exactly the same way. Can we blame them? In a way, they are amazing.
Also there is something I thought about writing about already in my first comment, but gave up on, but here it comes: Europe in the fifties and sixties had lost more than 7 million of it's diverse population during the Nazis and Fascists. Though most were Jews, Roma and millions of others that didn't fit into Nazi ideology were killed. Other millions fled. Post-war Europe was an abnormal time, that didn't reflect the diversity of most of Europe's existence.
posted by mumimor at 10:12 AM on June 8, 2020
It isn't really about Europe, it's about him and his reactions to a world that no longer meets his preconceptions and expectations. If it wasn't Europe, it would be something else, such as "Why are women not pretty anymore." (A sentiment which is obviously absurd, but which I have heard from other old and oldish men, and which says far more about them than about women.)
It's also not your problem to solve, as long as he isn't the President of the United States making decisions about Europe. Let it go.
posted by bad grammar at 12:02 PM on June 8, 2020
It's also not your problem to solve, as long as he isn't the President of the United States making decisions about Europe. Let it go.
posted by bad grammar at 12:02 PM on June 8, 2020
"It isn't really about Europe, it's about him and his reactions to a world that no longer meets his preconceptions and expectations"
This is a sentiment that was running through my mind as I typed my comment, but didn't actually say. If something isn't the same as someone who has no control over it expected it to be, the problem isn't the thing; it's the expectations.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:41 PM on June 8, 2020
This is a sentiment that was running through my mind as I typed my comment, but didn't actually say. If something isn't the same as someone who has no control over it expected it to be, the problem isn't the thing; it's the expectations.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:41 PM on June 8, 2020
Has he been to Spain and seen the marvels that are the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Assumption in Córdoba, or the Alhambra? Both phenomenal examples of Moorish architecture. Yep, same culture as North Africa.
The Canadian-ness might be part of the problem. We're really good at deluding ourselves that we're not a racist settler country. I mean, you can't even get a decent bannock in Toronto these days because of all those Swiss Chalet restaurants …
posted by scruss at 1:57 PM on June 8, 2020
The Canadian-ness might be part of the problem. We're really good at deluding ourselves that we're not a racist settler country. I mean, you can't even get a decent bannock in Toronto these days because of all those Swiss Chalet restaurants …
posted by scruss at 1:57 PM on June 8, 2020
"Other people are not zoo animals for your entertainment" is my standard response to anyone who complains about whether other people are performing their culture satisfactorily.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:46 PM on June 8, 2020
posted by Jacqueline at 9:46 PM on June 8, 2020
Couscous Royale
In my memory, Paris and couscous have always been inextricably linked. I attribute this to one of the most mythic meals of my youth, a lunch that lasted six hours. It was the early 1980s and I was living in Paris, an expatriate kid with a diplomat dad. We were a big group, occupying a long table at a Moroccan restaurant not far from the Opera. I'm not sure how the conversation, and the food, lasted so long. I can still hear my dad's barrel laugh as he recounted some story in Bronx-accented French.posted by mumimor at 11:26 PM on June 8, 2020
Concur: the solution is Epcot. You can drive there and avoid the COVID-19 airplane; you can hit up every Euro country; the fare will not deviate from the standard; if the Epcot Paris has a Notre Dame, it'll still have the spire!
posted by Don Pepino at 10:56 AM on June 9, 2020
posted by Don Pepino at 10:56 AM on June 9, 2020
I agree with others that your dad is basically looking for a theme park-like tourist experience.
"Real" Europe has always been a hodge podge of people, cultures, countries. My great-grandma lived in 5 different countries (each with its own mix of cultures) without ever moving from her ancestral home. I'm European, living in Europe, and if I wanted to, I could as easily be bothered by kebab places springing up on every corner as with the McDonald's springing up on every corner.
Someone here mentioned the difference between what we perceive as "high" and "low" culture - I guess your Dad is looking for Mona Lisa and Bach, conveniently forgetting that eg. football hooligans are also European.
And yet another thought - does he realize that, for some people in Europe, he is as foreign as the "nonwhite" people that have been living in Europe for years? If he moved to a small community somewhere in Europe, even if he learned the local language and did everything to blend in, he'd still be "the Canadian" even 20 years later.
In short, if your dad wants to examine his thoughts on the matter, he has plenty of things to think about.
posted by gakiko at 10:23 PM on June 9, 2020
"Real" Europe has always been a hodge podge of people, cultures, countries. My great-grandma lived in 5 different countries (each with its own mix of cultures) without ever moving from her ancestral home. I'm European, living in Europe, and if I wanted to, I could as easily be bothered by kebab places springing up on every corner as with the McDonald's springing up on every corner.
Someone here mentioned the difference between what we perceive as "high" and "low" culture - I guess your Dad is looking for Mona Lisa and Bach, conveniently forgetting that eg. football hooligans are also European.
And yet another thought - does he realize that, for some people in Europe, he is as foreign as the "nonwhite" people that have been living in Europe for years? If he moved to a small community somewhere in Europe, even if he learned the local language and did everything to blend in, he'd still be "the Canadian" even 20 years later.
In short, if your dad wants to examine his thoughts on the matter, he has plenty of things to think about.
posted by gakiko at 10:23 PM on June 9, 2020
This may be a more charitable reading than is warranted, but if your dad's mindset is fueled by nostalgia of the Paris he saw in the 1960s (?), it might be the same thing that's going on in Colson Whitehead's Lost and Found (NYTimes Magazine): "You are a New Yorker when what was there before is more real and solid than what is here now."
Maybe sending him that story (or Alec Baldwin's reading of it for Selected Shorts, if you can find it) would help him make the imaginative leap from "Paris is ruined" to "Paris is ephemeral."
posted by basalganglia at 4:34 AM on June 10, 2020
Maybe sending him that story (or Alec Baldwin's reading of it for Selected Shorts, if you can find it) would help him make the imaginative leap from "Paris is ruined" to "Paris is ephemeral."
posted by basalganglia at 4:34 AM on June 10, 2020
Paris is ephemeral
A moveable feast, beating ceaselessly into the past.
posted by clew at 9:14 AM on June 10, 2020
A moveable feast, beating ceaselessly into the past.
posted by clew at 9:14 AM on June 10, 2020
Probably because of this thread, this video about the French was recommended for me on YouTube. It's a typical YouTube irritating thing, but it has some really interesting points I hadn't thought of, but know to be true.
posted by mumimor at 11:26 AM on June 10, 2020
posted by mumimor at 11:26 AM on June 10, 2020
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