Protestants and St. Patrick's Day
March 17, 2006 8:32 AM Subscribe
Today is St. Patrick's day. Is it only a holiday for catholic Irish? In NYC, the big 5th Avenue parade is run by a Catholic Org. (thereby prohibiting gays), but is labeled as an "Irish Pride" Parade, but we never hear about the protestant side of the Irish?
Just about every Irish-American I know is catholic, are there just too few on the other side? Isn't St. Patrick also a hero to non-catholic Christians? Do they have their own parades? Is this true of the other big parades like Savannah, Georgia?
Just about every Irish-American I know is catholic, are there just too few on the other side? Isn't St. Patrick also a hero to non-catholic Christians? Do they have their own parades? Is this true of the other big parades like Savannah, Georgia?
In this country, "Irish" does tend to mean Irish Catholic. Protestants tend not to leave the North, and if they do they go to England; people from the Republic tend to come to the US because that's what their families/friends did (and do). Which is also why a lot of descendants of emigrant Irish that have never been to Ireland are Irish Catholic, as well.
St. Patrick was indeed a Catholic saint, which makes it a Catholic holiday; I don't know enough about religion to know if saints "carry over" among Christian-based religions, so that Patrick would be a Protestant saint as well, although given the name of the religion I'd think that it wouldn't.
posted by pdb at 8:42 AM on March 17, 2006
St. Patrick was indeed a Catholic saint, which makes it a Catholic holiday; I don't know enough about religion to know if saints "carry over" among Christian-based religions, so that Patrick would be a Protestant saint as well, although given the name of the religion I'd think that it wouldn't.
posted by pdb at 8:42 AM on March 17, 2006
My mother, when I was a kid, used to dress me in orange and told me to hit anyone that tried to pinch me. Luckily we were in a Jewish neighborhood, so that didn't seem to cause any conflicts.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:44 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 8:44 AM on March 17, 2006
Oh, and PDB, Anglicans have saints, Patrick being one of them. The Union Jack contains the cross of St. Patrick, the monarch of the Kingdoms that are united under the flag is the head of the Protestant Anglican church.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:49 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 8:49 AM on March 17, 2006
Protestants tend not to leave the North
Really?
posted by the cuban at 11:48 AM EST on March 17 [!]
Though they are now out of the tourney, check out those Orangemen!
posted by Pollomacho at 8:52 AM on March 17, 2006
Really?
posted by the cuban at 11:48 AM EST on March 17 [!]
Though they are now out of the tourney, check out those Orangemen!
posted by Pollomacho at 8:52 AM on March 17, 2006
Isn't St. Patrick also a hero to non-catholic Christians?
He's a saint, so pretty much no. The orthodox might recognize him. Anglicans recognize pre-separation saints (and name churches after them) but they don't care about them very much. Methodists also techncally recognize them but get embarassed if you bring them up.
I can't vouch for any other area, but in New England, people with English or Northern Irish ancestry are encouraged to not show any affection for their heritage in mixed company. the Irish won-- they worked hard to get the recognition even after they had the numbers. And Irish culture is a lot of fun-- I used to love to party on Dorchester Avenue with the expats when I was younger.
So, no. Protestants from the British Isles don't get their own parade. The Irish get one. The Italians get one and the Chinese/Viet community gets one. The Franco-Americans have them in Maine and New Hampshire. The English and the Ulstermen are too uptight to have a good parade anyway, even if we feel a bit left out.
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:53 AM on March 17, 2006
He's a saint, so pretty much no. The orthodox might recognize him. Anglicans recognize pre-separation saints (and name churches after them) but they don't care about them very much. Methodists also techncally recognize them but get embarassed if you bring them up.
I can't vouch for any other area, but in New England, people with English or Northern Irish ancestry are encouraged to not show any affection for their heritage in mixed company. the Irish won-- they worked hard to get the recognition even after they had the numbers. And Irish culture is a lot of fun-- I used to love to party on Dorchester Avenue with the expats when I was younger.
So, no. Protestants from the British Isles don't get their own parade. The Irish get one. The Italians get one and the Chinese/Viet community gets one. The Franco-Americans have them in Maine and New Hampshire. The English and the Ulstermen are too uptight to have a good parade anyway, even if we feel a bit left out.
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:53 AM on March 17, 2006
One has to look at the history of the N. Irish Protestants who are also known as Scotch-Irish (they also are part English). They were imported into Northern Ireland in the 1600's, and were set up in plantations. The Northern Irish Protestants were descended from them. Thus, many native gaelic Irish felt these people to be foreign colonizers, not true Irish.
It was the Catholic Irish who came to America in large numbers in the 19th century. The people who run the parade are the descendents of the Catholic Irish. They dislike the Protestant Irish greatly and don't involve them in the parades.;
posted by Ironmouth at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2006
It was the Catholic Irish who came to America in large numbers in the 19th century. The people who run the parade are the descendents of the Catholic Irish. They dislike the Protestant Irish greatly and don't involve them in the parades.;
posted by Ironmouth at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2006
I know it's bad form to ask piggy-back questions, but isn't it supposed to be Lent? Is the booziness of the modern St. Patrick's Day compatible with that?
posted by nowonmai at 8:59 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by nowonmai at 8:59 AM on March 17, 2006
This is slightly tangential to your question, but Massachusetts (very Irish) recognizes today as a state holiday. It's not considered a religious holiday because it's not just St. Patrick's day, it's also Evacuation Day.
posted by justkevin at 9:03 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by justkevin at 9:03 AM on March 17, 2006
nowonmai: there are special dispensations from some Bishops to eat meat (corned beef!) on St. Patrick's Day if it falls on Lenten Friday. I doubt it covers beer, though.
(Thank you NPR!)
posted by bcwinters at 9:04 AM on March 17, 2006
(Thank you NPR!)
posted by bcwinters at 9:04 AM on March 17, 2006
Re: Lent. In Chicago, at least, a dispensation has been granted allowing the eating of corned beef today. Though I think - at least in theory - you're supposed to find some other way to keep the "fasting" part of today, i.e. give up something else for today.
posted by dnash at 9:10 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by dnash at 9:10 AM on March 17, 2006
Drinking beer during lent is a tradition, why do you think the monks invented all those great beers?
To get nutrients during the fast.
posted by Mick at 9:15 AM on March 17, 2006
To get nutrients during the fast.
posted by Mick at 9:15 AM on March 17, 2006
My mother, when I was a kid, used to dress me in orange and told me to hit anyone that tried to pinch me.
My dad used to give an orange to his Irish Catholic secretary every St. Patrick's Day. Apparently they both thought it was funny (he claims), but I could see it leading to a lawsuit nowadays.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:20 AM on March 17, 2006
My dad used to give an orange to his Irish Catholic secretary every St. Patrick's Day. Apparently they both thought it was funny (he claims), but I could see it leading to a lawsuit nowadays.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:20 AM on March 17, 2006
The English and the Ulstermen are too uptight to have a good parade anyway, even if we feel a bit left out.
Seems like your Ulstermen do ok with marching.
posted by yerfatma at 9:25 AM on March 17, 2006
Seems like your Ulstermen do ok with marching.
posted by yerfatma at 9:25 AM on March 17, 2006
You don't need a special dispensation to break Lent on a Feast day (thus Sunday is a day off). St. Patrick's is a feast day.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:26 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 9:26 AM on March 17, 2006
(Though the issue is actually eating meat on a Friday during Lent, not the general "giving up something for Lent.")
posted by occhiblu at 9:43 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by occhiblu at 9:43 AM on March 17, 2006
Seems like your Ulstermen do ok with marching.
But that's regimented. Not like the anarchic fun of car-bombing a crowded street.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:51 AM on March 17, 2006
But that's regimented. Not like the anarchic fun of car-bombing a crowded street.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:51 AM on March 17, 2006
i think the scots-irish in america tend to identify themselves as "americans", while the irish catholics tend to identify themselves as "irish-americans" ... part of that may be because scots-irish and mainstream wasp identities are pretty similar ... think of the nascar/country music/redneck group of people ... that's your scots-irish right there ... which is a little misleading as only some of them went through ireland before coming to america
my irish catholic grandfather once got an orange shamrock in his lunch box and vowed to kick the ass of whoever put it there ... he didn't find the person, though
there's not a lot of people who kept their identities as orangemen on this side of the atlantic
as an irish-american, i've always regarded st patrick's day as the day everyone else gets to pretend they're irish
posted by pyramid termite at 9:52 AM on March 17, 2006
my irish catholic grandfather once got an orange shamrock in his lunch box and vowed to kick the ass of whoever put it there ... he didn't find the person, though
there's not a lot of people who kept their identities as orangemen on this side of the atlantic
as an irish-american, i've always regarded st patrick's day as the day everyone else gets to pretend they're irish
posted by pyramid termite at 9:52 AM on March 17, 2006
part of that may be because scots-irish and mainstream wasp identities are pretty similar ... think of the nascar/country music/redneck group of people
I assure you sir that I do not know a single American WASP (with the Anglo-Saxon meaning "English," as it should) who enjoys NASCAR, country music or pursuits typically thought of as "redneck." I went to Episcopal services with my grandmother approximately one million times in both Massachusetts and New Hampshire and I can't recall one discussion of auto racing. I probably saw some pickup trucks, but they didn't have confederate flags on them, that's for damn sure.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:07 AM on March 17, 2006
I assure you sir that I do not know a single American WASP (with the Anglo-Saxon meaning "English," as it should) who enjoys NASCAR, country music or pursuits typically thought of as "redneck." I went to Episcopal services with my grandmother approximately one million times in both Massachusetts and New Hampshire and I can't recall one discussion of auto racing. I probably saw some pickup trucks, but they didn't have confederate flags on them, that's for damn sure.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:07 AM on March 17, 2006
I don't know anything about Irish Americans, but I am real Irish. It is our national holiday before a catholic holiday and certainly my protestant (and very few jewish and muslim) friends always treat it as such and partake in the general day of work relaxing and boozing and watching of rugby/GAA and avoiding the city centre once darkness hits . . . .
My grandmother probably went to mass today, but I don't think that's a part of it for too many people I know, no matter what faith they are.
posted by jamesonandwater at 10:21 AM on March 17, 2006
My grandmother probably went to mass today, but I don't think that's a part of it for too many people I know, no matter what faith they are.
posted by jamesonandwater at 10:21 AM on March 17, 2006
er, day off work
posted by jamesonandwater at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2006
posted by jamesonandwater at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2006
The parts of my family that are in any way religious are pretty Protestant, so we always wore orange growing up. Especially because the parts of my family who were not religious were most definitely not Catholic.
I wear a tiny bit of green (today it's a pair of sparkly shoes) as an adult because I don't like getting pinched and nobody wants to hear a history lecture while they're trying to enjoy a beer. When I leave work I'll probably change to some shorts with orange dots on them. People who get it get it, and that's kind of a good conversation starter some years.
posted by bilabial at 10:27 AM on March 17, 2006
I wear a tiny bit of green (today it's a pair of sparkly shoes) as an adult because I don't like getting pinched and nobody wants to hear a history lecture while they're trying to enjoy a beer. When I leave work I'll probably change to some shorts with orange dots on them. People who get it get it, and that's kind of a good conversation starter some years.
posted by bilabial at 10:27 AM on March 17, 2006
I'm one of those mostly WASP Americans - and I don't do NASCAR, country music, or anything approaching it - although some of my relatives are hillbillies (well, hey, the hillbillies have been in the US since there WAS a US, even though they're the one group it's still PC to mock).
I do have a Prot-Irish line - they came here before the Revolution - but I still have soda bread & play Celtic music on St. Patrick's day (although I don't wear green), because I'll take what diversity I can get. No parades, though, sorry.
On the other hand, we DID have Confederate flags on things when I was small because - hey - half the Colonists went south, you know, and some of my ancestors died on both sides of that war. And many of the Confederates were just as WASP as the Yanks. I'm just saying. Massachusetts doesn't have a lock on WASPism, Mayor Curley.
posted by clarkstonian at 10:31 AM on March 17, 2006
I do have a Prot-Irish line - they came here before the Revolution - but I still have soda bread & play Celtic music on St. Patrick's day (although I don't wear green), because I'll take what diversity I can get. No parades, though, sorry.
On the other hand, we DID have Confederate flags on things when I was small because - hey - half the Colonists went south, you know, and some of my ancestors died on both sides of that war. And many of the Confederates were just as WASP as the Yanks. I'm just saying. Massachusetts doesn't have a lock on WASPism, Mayor Curley.
posted by clarkstonian at 10:31 AM on March 17, 2006
Can. 1251 Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
How can one partake of the body of our Lord, as one is expected on feast days, if one is to abstain from meat?
Mayor Curley, I don't think that New Hampshire and Massachusetts, though populated by a fair share of yahoos and massholes are the target demographic states for NASCAR.
Kix Brooks, cradle to grave Episcopalian and distinguished alumnus of St. Andrew's-Sewanee Episcopal boarding school.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:45 AM on March 17, 2006
How can one partake of the body of our Lord, as one is expected on feast days, if one is to abstain from meat?
Mayor Curley, I don't think that New Hampshire and Massachusetts, though populated by a fair share of yahoos and massholes are the target demographic states for NASCAR.
Kix Brooks, cradle to grave Episcopalian and distinguished alumnus of St. Andrew's-Sewanee Episcopal boarding school.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:45 AM on March 17, 2006
Having been born and raised here in the Boston area I always forget that my huge family in Alabama are technically WASPs, too. You're right, Clarkstonian, WASP doesn't always mean Yankee Protestant.
My whole southern clan are Protestants of English/Irish/Scottish/German descent and are into Nascar and every other redneck cliche you can think of.
posted by jdl at 10:46 AM on March 17, 2006
My whole southern clan are Protestants of English/Irish/Scottish/German descent and are into Nascar and every other redneck cliche you can think of.
posted by jdl at 10:46 AM on March 17, 2006
Massachusetts doesn't have a lock on WASPism, Mayor Curley.
No, but between New England and Mormon country, they've got close to one.
Still want to claim the bulk of those folks are of English extraction?
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:50 AM on March 17, 2006
No, but between New England and Mormon country, they've got close to one.
Still want to claim the bulk of those folks are of English extraction?
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:50 AM on March 17, 2006
Massachusetts doesn't have a lock on WASPism, Mayor Curley.
Certainly not, and my snooty Virginia grandmother would blackball you from the club for making such a suggestion.
Of course, she married an Irish Catholic, so chances are good even she'll be wearing green today.
posted by thivaia at 10:55 AM on March 17, 2006
Certainly not, and my snooty Virginia grandmother would blackball you from the club for making such a suggestion.
Of course, she married an Irish Catholic, so chances are good even she'll be wearing green today.
posted by thivaia at 10:55 AM on March 17, 2006
Is this pinching thing strictly USian?
Where I live in Canada, pretty much everybody who is aware of St. Patrick's Day wears green, and I've never seen any inference of one's religion coming into the celebration (other than TV coverage of the NYC parade, which is of course in the US). To suggest that, if you wear green today, you are in any way suggesting you're Irish Catholic (much less Irish) seems absurd to me.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2006
Where I live in Canada, pretty much everybody who is aware of St. Patrick's Day wears green, and I've never seen any inference of one's religion coming into the celebration (other than TV coverage of the NYC parade, which is of course in the US). To suggest that, if you wear green today, you are in any way suggesting you're Irish Catholic (much less Irish) seems absurd to me.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2006
Is it only a holiday for catholic Irish
Robert MacCarthy, the Dean of St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin might have a strong opinion on that. St Pats is a Church of Ireland (Episcopelian) cathedral.
Here's a disclaimer - I was taught in "C of I" schools in Ireland. My parents wanted secular ed, but this was close as they could get in 1970s Ireland.
This is the history the C of I teaches: In the beginning was St Patrick who established the Celtic Church, which was good, but became full of error. Then along came the Normans in the 12th century who, with the blessings of the Pope of the day, invaded Ireland and integrated the Celtic Church within a new Romanised and triune hierarchy: the Church of Ireland. a "Catholic Church" in Ireland. During the Reformation the C of I broke away from Roman administration, and now stylises itself as "The Ancient Catholick and Apostolick Church of Ireland". It describes itself as "Both Protestant and Catholic", and "Reformed Catholic".
From the point of view of the C of I, it is the legitimate successor to the Celtic Church in Ireland, in a direct line of succession of bishops from St Patrick to the present day. It is a "The Catholic and Universal Church of Ireland". And so on.
For C of I extremists, the real interlopers are the Italian, French,and Spanish clerics that began infiltrating the country in the 18th and 19th centuries, introducing a new faith, "Roman Catholicism" with doctrines derived de novo from Rome.
In any case, St Patrick is a Saint for C of I people and, in fact, is regarded as the Founder of their Church.
posted by meehawl at 11:17 AM on March 17, 2006
Robert MacCarthy, the Dean of St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin might have a strong opinion on that. St Pats is a Church of Ireland (Episcopelian) cathedral.
Here's a disclaimer - I was taught in "C of I" schools in Ireland. My parents wanted secular ed, but this was close as they could get in 1970s Ireland.
This is the history the C of I teaches: In the beginning was St Patrick who established the Celtic Church, which was good, but became full of error. Then along came the Normans in the 12th century who, with the blessings of the Pope of the day, invaded Ireland and integrated the Celtic Church within a new Romanised and triune hierarchy: the Church of Ireland. a "Catholic Church" in Ireland. During the Reformation the C of I broke away from Roman administration, and now stylises itself as "The Ancient Catholick and Apostolick Church of Ireland". It describes itself as "Both Protestant and Catholic", and "Reformed Catholic".
From the point of view of the C of I, it is the legitimate successor to the Celtic Church in Ireland, in a direct line of succession of bishops from St Patrick to the present day. It is a "The Catholic and Universal Church of Ireland". And so on.
For C of I extremists, the real interlopers are the Italian, French,and Spanish clerics that began infiltrating the country in the 18th and 19th centuries, introducing a new faith, "Roman Catholicism" with doctrines derived de novo from Rome.
In any case, St Patrick is a Saint for C of I people and, in fact, is regarded as the Founder of their Church.
posted by meehawl at 11:17 AM on March 17, 2006
St Patrick is, of course, a saint for Anglicans as well as Catholics, but I do believe that the celebration of the day is, in North America, a largely Catholic Irish activity. Toronto still does have an Orange-Day parade for protestant Irish, though it's gotten smaller over the years.
Interestingly, this is the story I heard for why Toronto does St Patrick's Day: in the early and mid-twentieth century, Toronto had a fair bit of religious/ethnic tension between Catholic Italian immigrants and Protestant-Anglo Canadians (mostly Scottish in our area, but by this point just Canadian). One of the ways to diffuse this was to introduce the celebration of St Patrick's day into schools, as it was associated with a more acceptable Catholic group. It essentially normalised Catholicism in what had been a very Protestant city.
meehawl: Was the CofI really formed at the Reformation? I thought that I had read that the reformation was largely a failure in Ireland, and that the Anglican Church there was a later English import. (I always found this very interesting, as it created a divide between the "Old English" who remained Catholic and the new Anglo-Irish elites who moved in.
posted by jb at 11:57 AM on March 17, 2006
Interestingly, this is the story I heard for why Toronto does St Patrick's Day: in the early and mid-twentieth century, Toronto had a fair bit of religious/ethnic tension between Catholic Italian immigrants and Protestant-Anglo Canadians (mostly Scottish in our area, but by this point just Canadian). One of the ways to diffuse this was to introduce the celebration of St Patrick's day into schools, as it was associated with a more acceptable Catholic group. It essentially normalised Catholicism in what had been a very Protestant city.
meehawl: Was the CofI really formed at the Reformation? I thought that I had read that the reformation was largely a failure in Ireland, and that the Anglican Church there was a later English import. (I always found this very interesting, as it created a divide between the "Old English" who remained Catholic and the new Anglo-Irish elites who moved in.
posted by jb at 11:57 AM on March 17, 2006
I thought that I had read that the reformation was largely a failure in Ireland, and that the Anglican Church there was a later English import.
Who imported what depends on your perspective.
People in this threa dare also confusing Scottish "protestants" with Presbyterians. "Protestant" in Ireland and the UK tends to refer to episcopalian denominations, whereas the Church of Scotland was reformed along presbyterian lines mainly due to the charismatic preaching of John Knox. This begat the Presbyterian Church in Ireland which definitely doesn't see itself in any sort of Apostolic succession from Saint Patrick. USian Baptism is a descendent of the Church of Scotland in great part due to the Scottish Diaspora of the 16th and 17th centuries.
So you see the problem with using the rather imprecise word "protestant" here. You can have people from Ulster who are Roman Catholic, Irish Catholic (ie, church of ireland), or Presbyterian. Many in Ulster belong to the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, which also disregards the primacy of Saint Patrick (which is ironic considering that it was founded on St Patrick's Day in 1951). Similarly, you can have Scots and Irish and Scots-Irish who are anglican and belong to the Scottish Episcopal Church. You can also be Scottish and Presbyterian, but not in the "Kirk", which they see as a bit too wishy-washy and inclined towards Establishmentarianism, and instead belong to one of the many Presbyterian denominations.
Religion in Ireland and Scotland is *complicated*. For instance, Tony Blair, a Scotsman born on Edinburgh, is if memory serves me right, an Anglican in the Church of England, through his family connections. This doesn't win him any favours from Scottish or Irish presbyterians.
posted by meehawl at 12:23 PM on March 17, 2006
Who imported what depends on your perspective.
People in this threa dare also confusing Scottish "protestants" with Presbyterians. "Protestant" in Ireland and the UK tends to refer to episcopalian denominations, whereas the Church of Scotland was reformed along presbyterian lines mainly due to the charismatic preaching of John Knox. This begat the Presbyterian Church in Ireland which definitely doesn't see itself in any sort of Apostolic succession from Saint Patrick. USian Baptism is a descendent of the Church of Scotland in great part due to the Scottish Diaspora of the 16th and 17th centuries.
So you see the problem with using the rather imprecise word "protestant" here. You can have people from Ulster who are Roman Catholic, Irish Catholic (ie, church of ireland), or Presbyterian. Many in Ulster belong to the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, which also disregards the primacy of Saint Patrick (which is ironic considering that it was founded on St Patrick's Day in 1951). Similarly, you can have Scots and Irish and Scots-Irish who are anglican and belong to the Scottish Episcopal Church. You can also be Scottish and Presbyterian, but not in the "Kirk", which they see as a bit too wishy-washy and inclined towards Establishmentarianism, and instead belong to one of the many Presbyterian denominations.
Religion in Ireland and Scotland is *complicated*. For instance, Tony Blair, a Scotsman born on Edinburgh, is if memory serves me right, an Anglican in the Church of England, through his family connections. This doesn't win him any favours from Scottish or Irish presbyterians.
posted by meehawl at 12:23 PM on March 17, 2006
meehawl, most people would consider "Catholic" [in the context of Ireland or not] to mean Roman Catholic. The Church of Ireland [or any Christian group formed by / doctrinally affected by the Reformation] wouldn't be considered 'Catholic', no matter what they call themselves. 'Protestant,' from a Roman Catholic perspective, is generally taken to mean 'churches that broke from the Roman Catholic Church after the reformation,' and that includes Episcopalians. Since the Republic of Ireland is primarily Roman Catholic, the Catholic/Protestant divide is usually put in their terms. While the issue of what churches call themselves is more complicated, in the terms of the question the original poster is asking, the CofI still counts as 'Protestant.'
And to answer duck_lips - almost anyone who identifies as Irish-American today has ancestors that came over in the past two centuries. Huge waves of people started coming to the US from Ireland with the onset of the Famine in the mid-19th century. Most of these people were poor, native Irish rather than transplanted Scots/English or Anglicized landowners, and thus the vast majority of them were Irish-Catholic. Thus, while most Irish-American organizations and events aren't explicitly Catholic-only, almost everyone who's still connected enough to their roots to want to belong to one is Catholic. Since these Irish-American organizations are generally involved in the local St. Patrick's day parades, there's a strong Catholic influence. And yeah, Catholics are a large majority everywhere in Ireland but Ulster, and even there the relative number of Protestants is declining.
Finally, with regards to why other ethnic groups don't have St. Patrick's day parades: there are thousands of saints. Most ethnic groups have saint's-day parades for saints that are either incredibly important to the Church as a whole or are specifically connected to the town, region, or nation that that group of people hails from. St. Patrick lived and preached in Ireland, and thus the Irish feel particularly connected to him [as well as other saints, such as St. Brigid]; African or South American Catholics aren't going to feel the same connexion. Most Protestants either don't believe in saints or tend to downplay them as something of an almost superstitious embarassment, and so they're unlikely to hold any sort of a saint's-day parade.
posted by ubersturm at 1:01 PM on March 17, 2006
And to answer duck_lips - almost anyone who identifies as Irish-American today has ancestors that came over in the past two centuries. Huge waves of people started coming to the US from Ireland with the onset of the Famine in the mid-19th century. Most of these people were poor, native Irish rather than transplanted Scots/English or Anglicized landowners, and thus the vast majority of them were Irish-Catholic. Thus, while most Irish-American organizations and events aren't explicitly Catholic-only, almost everyone who's still connected enough to their roots to want to belong to one is Catholic. Since these Irish-American organizations are generally involved in the local St. Patrick's day parades, there's a strong Catholic influence. And yeah, Catholics are a large majority everywhere in Ireland but Ulster, and even there the relative number of Protestants is declining.
Finally, with regards to why other ethnic groups don't have St. Patrick's day parades: there are thousands of saints. Most ethnic groups have saint's-day parades for saints that are either incredibly important to the Church as a whole or are specifically connected to the town, region, or nation that that group of people hails from. St. Patrick lived and preached in Ireland, and thus the Irish feel particularly connected to him [as well as other saints, such as St. Brigid]; African or South American Catholics aren't going to feel the same connexion. Most Protestants either don't believe in saints or tend to downplay them as something of an almost superstitious embarassment, and so they're unlikely to hold any sort of a saint's-day parade.
posted by ubersturm at 1:01 PM on March 17, 2006
in the terms of the question the original poster is asking, the CofI still counts as 'Protestant.'
I agree, but I think the original question's framing included "are there just too few on the other side" and is impossible to answer within that binary context. As I explained, most of the descendents of the Scots-Irish in North America were Presbyterians and came over during the 16th and especially 17th century because they were being persecuted by the English, the Scottish Protestants *and* the Hiberno-Irish. In fact, emigration from Ireland until the middle of the 19th century was almost exclusively Scotch. By dint of their earlier arrival, their numbers compare well to those USians descended from the later, St Patrick-friendly Hiberno-Irish. One-third of US Presidents have had Scots-Irish ancestry including the current one.
Catholic Church of Irelanders, as opposed to Roman Irish Catholics and Scots-Irish Presbyterians, tended to be from a more affluent social strata, were not as plentiful to begin with, and did not emigrate in great numbers. And when they did emigrate, their emigration patterns tended to favour Canada, England/Wales, and South Africa/Australia/New Zealand.
You may not feel comfortable that "Roman Catholic" is not completely synonymous with "Catholic", but in strict terms the use of the word "Catholic" within a Christian Church has to do with recognising Apostolic Succession and a General Communion. If you're going to go disallow Irish Catholics the use of the term, you are also going to have to take it up with the Antioch Catholics, the Old Catholics, the Polish National Catholics, the Evangelical Catholics, the Syro-Malankara Catholics, the Tridentine Catholics, the Assyrians, and of course the Ruthenian Catholics. I've probably left out more than I've left in, but the key issue is that for most of these "Catholic" Churches, Patrick is a Saint. Not quite a Father of the Church, but pretty high up there.
It boils down to this: some "protestants" are Catholics. Presbyterians are not Catholics. The Catholic Church of Ireland's current head is the Primate of All Ireland in the Archdiocese of Armagh, Robin Eames, who traces his succession from Bishop Padraic, in 455. Saint Patrick's Day is one of the key Catholic Church of Ireland feast days.
posted by meehawl at 1:52 PM on March 17, 2006
I agree, but I think the original question's framing included "are there just too few on the other side" and is impossible to answer within that binary context. As I explained, most of the descendents of the Scots-Irish in North America were Presbyterians and came over during the 16th and especially 17th century because they were being persecuted by the English, the Scottish Protestants *and* the Hiberno-Irish. In fact, emigration from Ireland until the middle of the 19th century was almost exclusively Scotch. By dint of their earlier arrival, their numbers compare well to those USians descended from the later, St Patrick-friendly Hiberno-Irish. One-third of US Presidents have had Scots-Irish ancestry including the current one.
Catholic Church of Irelanders, as opposed to Roman Irish Catholics and Scots-Irish Presbyterians, tended to be from a more affluent social strata, were not as plentiful to begin with, and did not emigrate in great numbers. And when they did emigrate, their emigration patterns tended to favour Canada, England/Wales, and South Africa/Australia/New Zealand.
You may not feel comfortable that "Roman Catholic" is not completely synonymous with "Catholic", but in strict terms the use of the word "Catholic" within a Christian Church has to do with recognising Apostolic Succession and a General Communion. If you're going to go disallow Irish Catholics the use of the term, you are also going to have to take it up with the Antioch Catholics, the Old Catholics, the Polish National Catholics, the Evangelical Catholics, the Syro-Malankara Catholics, the Tridentine Catholics, the Assyrians, and of course the Ruthenian Catholics. I've probably left out more than I've left in, but the key issue is that for most of these "Catholic" Churches, Patrick is a Saint. Not quite a Father of the Church, but pretty high up there.
It boils down to this: some "protestants" are Catholics. Presbyterians are not Catholics. The Catholic Church of Ireland's current head is the Primate of All Ireland in the Archdiocese of Armagh, Robin Eames, who traces his succession from Bishop Padraic, in 455. Saint Patrick's Day is one of the key Catholic Church of Ireland feast days.
posted by meehawl at 1:52 PM on March 17, 2006
Is this pinching thing strictly USian?
First I've heard of it -- and I usually resist the popular encouragements to wear green this day (because I rebel against everything).
posted by Rash at 2:00 PM on March 17, 2006
First I've heard of it -- and I usually resist the popular encouragements to wear green this day (because I rebel against everything).
posted by Rash at 2:00 PM on March 17, 2006
"I don't think that New Hampshire and Massachusetts, though populated by a fair share of yahoos and massholes are the target demographic states for NASCAR"
Are you sure about that?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:20 PM on March 17, 2006
Are you sure about that?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:20 PM on March 17, 2006
I've heard that the term "hillbilly" referred to the Scotch-Irish settlers songs about William of Orange. I don't know if that's true or not but if you compare some of the more stirdent Southern preacher/ politicians to, say, the Reverend Ian Paisley it starts to look plausible.
posted by fshgrl at 8:27 PM on March 17, 2006
posted by fshgrl at 8:27 PM on March 17, 2006
I assure you sir that I do not know a single American WASP (with the Anglo-Saxon meaning "English," as it should) who enjoys NASCAR, country music or pursuits typically thought of as "redneck."
doesn't sound like a fun crowd to me ...
there are many areas of the country where people of scots-irish ancestry and english ancestry are pretty much hard to tell apart ... such as my little corner of the world between new england and mormon country ... the guys i work with have a nascar pool and follow nascar very closely ... and they mostly vote democratic
redneck isn't an ancestry, it's a state of mind
posted by pyramid termite at 9:04 PM on March 17, 2006
doesn't sound like a fun crowd to me ...
there are many areas of the country where people of scots-irish ancestry and english ancestry are pretty much hard to tell apart ... such as my little corner of the world between new england and mormon country ... the guys i work with have a nascar pool and follow nascar very closely ... and they mostly vote democratic
redneck isn't an ancestry, it's a state of mind
posted by pyramid termite at 9:04 PM on March 17, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
From the point of view of the Ulster church, Ussher’s most significant contribution was his book, A discourse of the religion anciently professed by the Irish and Brittish, published in 1631. In this Ussher examined the history of the Early Irish church after the arrival of St Patrick. He set out to show that St Patrick was, theologically, a Protestant who had operated in Ireland independently of the papacy. According to Ussher’s thesis, Ireland had succumbed to the evil influence of Rome in the 11th century from which the Church of Ireland was now seeking to rescue it.
Also, check out the History Channel's excellent article about the history of St. Paddy's day in America.
posted by maxreax at 8:39 AM on March 17, 2006