What kind of improvement should I strive for between marathons?
November 15, 2019 11:57 AM
How much time improvement can I safely train for between a fall and a spring marathon?
I just completed the NYC marathon, and will be competing in the LA Marathon in about four months. I'd like to improve my time, but I want to do it safely, with minimal risk of injury. What's a good pace to shoot for in my training, given the running history and times detailed below?
I'm a 36 year old male who's pretty new to running. I started running for the first time in my life by doing couch to 5k in June 2018, then completed my first marathon in May 2019. I just finished my second, the NYC marathon, on November 3rd, and I've registered for the LA Marathon, which takes place on March 8, 2020. (Clearly, the bug bit me hard!)
I'm not very fast, but I'm working on improving. I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate 1 training schedule (link to PDF) to train for the NYC Marathon, and I averaged a 10 min. mile on long runs and a 9.25 min. mile on my pace runs.
My first marathon time was 4:35. My second was 4:34. I'd love to break 4 hours in LA, but don't know if it's possible to train for a 35 minute improvement in the three and a half months I have.
In both marathons I've run so far, I did great (too great!) for the first 20 miles, then crapped out with exhaustion and knee pain for the final 6.2. My NYC marathon pace held pretty steady at an 8.5 min. mile for the first 20, then fell to a crawl at the end.
The pretty obvious diagnosis is that I came out of the gate too hot, running faster than my pace, so I'm going to target my training at setting a real race pace that I will try to maintain for the duration. To achieve a sub-4 hour marathon, I'd need to maintain a 9.15 min. mile all the way through. Since I was able to run an 8.5 min. mile for the first 20 of my recent marathon, I'm hoping this is a reasonable goal. But I'm still feeling my way around this sport. Is it safe and reasonable, or should I set a more modest goal?
Thank you so much for your help! Any relevant tips for training between a fall and spring marathon would also be welcome!
I just completed the NYC marathon, and will be competing in the LA Marathon in about four months. I'd like to improve my time, but I want to do it safely, with minimal risk of injury. What's a good pace to shoot for in my training, given the running history and times detailed below?
I'm a 36 year old male who's pretty new to running. I started running for the first time in my life by doing couch to 5k in June 2018, then completed my first marathon in May 2019. I just finished my second, the NYC marathon, on November 3rd, and I've registered for the LA Marathon, which takes place on March 8, 2020. (Clearly, the bug bit me hard!)
I'm not very fast, but I'm working on improving. I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate 1 training schedule (link to PDF) to train for the NYC Marathon, and I averaged a 10 min. mile on long runs and a 9.25 min. mile on my pace runs.
My first marathon time was 4:35. My second was 4:34. I'd love to break 4 hours in LA, but don't know if it's possible to train for a 35 minute improvement in the three and a half months I have.
In both marathons I've run so far, I did great (too great!) for the first 20 miles, then crapped out with exhaustion and knee pain for the final 6.2. My NYC marathon pace held pretty steady at an 8.5 min. mile for the first 20, then fell to a crawl at the end.
The pretty obvious diagnosis is that I came out of the gate too hot, running faster than my pace, so I'm going to target my training at setting a real race pace that I will try to maintain for the duration. To achieve a sub-4 hour marathon, I'd need to maintain a 9.15 min. mile all the way through. Since I was able to run an 8.5 min. mile for the first 20 of my recent marathon, I'm hoping this is a reasonable goal. But I'm still feeling my way around this sport. Is it safe and reasonable, or should I set a more modest goal?
Thank you so much for your help! Any relevant tips for training between a fall and spring marathon would also be welcome!
Are you taking in calories during the race? Your body is almost definitely going to run out of stored glycogen during a four hour marathon, so fueling is important to avoiding running out of steam where you did. It is a common marathon racing mistake. See also The Science of “Bonking” and Glycogen Depletion.
posted by exogenous at 12:18 PM on November 15, 2019
posted by exogenous at 12:18 PM on November 15, 2019
Don't train "for" a time or a pace, train _at_ your current fitness. If your plan calls for repeats at 10k pace, run them at the pace you are actually capable of running a 10k, not some idea of what you'll be able to do in 4 months. Keep your long runs where they are - 10 to 10:30 is perfect for a slightly under 4 hour marathon. Hal Higdon is fine but I personally experienced good results when I moved to a plan that was specific and progressive - that is, it had (in addition to a lot of slow, easy running) workouts that were increasingly specific towards the demands of the marathon -- fast-finish long runs (not every long run, maybe every other week during the 2nd half of training) where you are training yourself to run fast on tired legs. Fitzgerald (80/20 running, Brain Training for Runners) and Hudson (Run Faster: From the 5K to the marathon: How to be your own best coach) have plans that follow this formula.
If you are hitting the wall hard at the end, though, there is a good chance it's a nutrition issue.
I highly recommend Matt Fitzgerald's book on marathon nutrition. I implemented almost all his ideas and I never thought I would feel as good at the end of a marathon as I did the time I tried his approach. Also I'm a big fan of fasted long runs (early in the season, and not fast-finish long runs) to train your body to use fat as a fuel.
posted by matcha action at 1:21 PM on November 15, 2019
If you are hitting the wall hard at the end, though, there is a good chance it's a nutrition issue.
I highly recommend Matt Fitzgerald's book on marathon nutrition. I implemented almost all his ideas and I never thought I would feel as good at the end of a marathon as I did the time I tried his approach. Also I'm a big fan of fasted long runs (early in the season, and not fast-finish long runs) to train your body to use fat as a fuel.
posted by matcha action at 1:21 PM on November 15, 2019
There is a tool called the McMillan Running Calculator... runner and coach Greg McMillan developed this tool based on a lot of real world data. One of the use cases is predicting paces for distances you haven't run based on distances you have run (e.g. if my 5K time is X, what is a good target for 10K?) . If you ran the first 20 of NYC in 2:50 (8:30 pace), the calculator predicts a 3:47:17 marathon (8:40 pace). This is based on an experienced runner who can race to a plan. If you've only been running a year and a half, that isn't you. However, a 4:00 marathon seems like a completely reasonable goal for March. You are plenty fast enough; don't think of it as "35 minute improvement in three and half months". Rather, you need to learn to not blow up in the last six miles of a marathon in the next three and half months, which is an entirely different thing. Other commenters have talked about nutrition and that all looks like good advice. You mentioned knee pain... was that just a transient thing, or are you dealing with the onset of a chronic problem? Finally, I am curious: the Higdon plan you linked included a half marathon at week 9. Did you run a half marathon race, or just do a 13 mile training run? I'm asking, because I think running a half marathon race is a great training tool to get used to race day logistics and to practice racing a plan. I would certainly recommend squeezing in a half marathon race (or maybe even two) as preparation for your race in LA. Good luck!
posted by kovacs at 6:21 PM on November 15, 2019
posted by kovacs at 6:21 PM on November 15, 2019
If you aren't able to complete a marathon at your pace, twice, you probably need more work building your base. As most marathon plans are ~16 weeks, and your next marathon is in 4 weeks, that leaves 0 time to increase your base. It looks like the plan you followed topped out around 43 miles/week - working up to regularly doing 60miles/week by spring should be reasonable.
While working on your aerobic base, be honest with yourself. Most recreational runners run their "easy" runs too fast for optimal aerobic benefit. If you can get a heartrate monitor that's an easy metric to try to stay honest about. If you can't/won't train with heart rate, than work on self check ins, and try having a conversation with yourself. If you need to gasp in between short sentenses, you're probably training too hard.
Additionally most knee problems from running usually are fixed by building up the strength in your hips/glutes. Does your knee pain match the description for runners knee, IT band syndrom, or something else? Look up exercises/routines suggested for this. Even if you don't have the time to run 60+ miles/week regularly, you need to at least make the time to develop your legs so you can run without pain.
As a runner I know it's painful to hear, but I'd suggest no A race this spring. (But hey, some B/C races are fine) Spend the winter doing mostly aerobic running, safely bringing up your weekly mileage, while taking a cut-back week every 4-5 weeks. Also, lots of strength work for your hips/glutes. If you can motivate yourself to go do a gym and lift heavy great! If instead you're doing home routines, hey that's better than nothing.
As a 43 year old cis male, who started running at 37, I'd suggest you start considering yourself to be a master in the back of your head. Which is to say once you've got a better aerobic base to build from, a plan that has you doing 3-4 workouts a week will probably be too much stress for your body to really recover well from. And recovery is *really* important. The higdon plan is relatively gentle as opposed to a pfitinger plan. As a master, I found Jack Daniel's 2Q plan worked pretty wonderfully for me, except I was too agressive in my goals (I was attempting to BQ to run in the same year as my sister).
Given that you're not able to completely run your marathon, you can drop a lot of time, but I wouldn't worry about time right now. If I were in your shoes, my goal would be to run it well, and I don't think 4 months is enough time to get you there given your descriptions of past performances. If you do spend 4 months getting stronger and upping your weekly mileage, and then have a decent training period over the summer, getting sub 4 by next fall seems to not be a far reach.
I'll also say that there's no shame in a run/walk plan, and 60-120 seconds of walking (on flat ground a 13:00-16:00 m/mile pace should be do-able). Every 10 minutes (or every aid station!) will use different muscles in a way that can help keep you running longer and prevent one from doing a death march at the end.
posted by nobeagle at 6:46 AM on November 18, 2019
While working on your aerobic base, be honest with yourself. Most recreational runners run their "easy" runs too fast for optimal aerobic benefit. If you can get a heartrate monitor that's an easy metric to try to stay honest about. If you can't/won't train with heart rate, than work on self check ins, and try having a conversation with yourself. If you need to gasp in between short sentenses, you're probably training too hard.
Additionally most knee problems from running usually are fixed by building up the strength in your hips/glutes. Does your knee pain match the description for runners knee, IT band syndrom, or something else? Look up exercises/routines suggested for this. Even if you don't have the time to run 60+ miles/week regularly, you need to at least make the time to develop your legs so you can run without pain.
As a runner I know it's painful to hear, but I'd suggest no A race this spring. (But hey, some B/C races are fine) Spend the winter doing mostly aerobic running, safely bringing up your weekly mileage, while taking a cut-back week every 4-5 weeks. Also, lots of strength work for your hips/glutes. If you can motivate yourself to go do a gym and lift heavy great! If instead you're doing home routines, hey that's better than nothing.
As a 43 year old cis male, who started running at 37, I'd suggest you start considering yourself to be a master in the back of your head. Which is to say once you've got a better aerobic base to build from, a plan that has you doing 3-4 workouts a week will probably be too much stress for your body to really recover well from. And recovery is *really* important. The higdon plan is relatively gentle as opposed to a pfitinger plan. As a master, I found Jack Daniel's 2Q plan worked pretty wonderfully for me, except I was too agressive in my goals (I was attempting to BQ to run in the same year as my sister).
Given that you're not able to completely run your marathon, you can drop a lot of time, but I wouldn't worry about time right now. If I were in your shoes, my goal would be to run it well, and I don't think 4 months is enough time to get you there given your descriptions of past performances. If you do spend 4 months getting stronger and upping your weekly mileage, and then have a decent training period over the summer, getting sub 4 by next fall seems to not be a far reach.
I'll also say that there's no shame in a run/walk plan, and 60-120 seconds of walking (on flat ground a 13:00-16:00 m/mile pace should be do-able). Every 10 minutes (or every aid station!) will use different muscles in a way that can help keep you running longer and prevent one from doing a death march at the end.
posted by nobeagle at 6:46 AM on November 18, 2019
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posted by notsnot at 12:00 PM on November 15, 2019