Going to law school in your 40s: Worst idea ever?
September 12, 2018 7:31 AM
I'm kicking around the idea of law school because I think it would open doors to careers that would be more fulfilling than the one I have now. But: I'm already 40. Is this a Very Bad Idea? What about Master of Laws/Master of Science in Law vs. a full JD?
I'm a communications professional in the nonprofit sector, but I'm coming to realize that I want to have more of a direct impact on public policy. I'm not interested in a biglaw career--I'm looking at nonprofit, government, maybe even academia.
I've wanted to go to law school for a while, but the financial crisis derailed any possibility of it for about 7 years, and then life just got in the way. But now my finances are finally more stable, and I still have 25-30 working years ahead of me, so I feel like it's a good time to begin considering the changes I've been wanting to make for a while.
So: Is a Master of Law worth the time/money? What's its credential value in the workplace? And can it count toward a JD in the future? I may not need to be an attorney to do the work I eventually do, but if I'm going to go that far, I'd at least want to leave the door open to pursue the JD without wasting that year.
I realize money is not an inconsiderable part of this equation--but for the moment I want to consider it separately.
I'm a communications professional in the nonprofit sector, but I'm coming to realize that I want to have more of a direct impact on public policy. I'm not interested in a biglaw career--I'm looking at nonprofit, government, maybe even academia.
I've wanted to go to law school for a while, but the financial crisis derailed any possibility of it for about 7 years, and then life just got in the way. But now my finances are finally more stable, and I still have 25-30 working years ahead of me, so I feel like it's a good time to begin considering the changes I've been wanting to make for a while.
So: Is a Master of Law worth the time/money? What's its credential value in the workplace? And can it count toward a JD in the future? I may not need to be an attorney to do the work I eventually do, but if I'm going to go that far, I'd at least want to leave the door open to pursue the JD without wasting that year.
I realize money is not an inconsiderable part of this equation--but for the moment I want to consider it separately.
It's unclear what you envision doing or being able to do if you were to get a JD that you would not be able to do without one.
One thing to understand is that law school is effectively a vocational school. How well law school prepares one for the actual practice of law is another discussion entirely, but the idea is that you're being given skills that you will put to use in the professional workplace. As such, ROI is absolutely something that should be a consideration. Especially given the often astronomical cost. There are people who get JDs without much thought of working in the law. These tend to be the children of the super-rich, who don't need to pay off huge student loans and for whom it may occasionally be useful to have a JD (not to mention the connections they will make in law school).
Although it is perhaps not as bad as it was several years ago, the market for JDs is still over-saturated and the industry as a whole is contracting in terms of personnel. Offices that regularly brought in thirty summer associates ten years ago are now bringing in a dozen, and they aren't hiring as many of those after graduation. Most biglaw firms where an associate can earn enough to pay off the student debt in a reasonable period of time are only hiring from tier 1 law schools nowadays, so that's also something to consider. If you're thinking that the JD would be useful in some law-adjacent pursuit, I would encourage you to think carefully about how much benefit it would confer and whether it would be worth the money. If, on the other hand, you have the idea of earning a JD over a longer period of years in night school or whatever, at least you wouldn't be running up huge student debt and you'd continue to be fully employed. How much use that night school JD would be to you is another question, of course.
posted by slkinsey at 8:23 AM on September 12, 2018
One thing to understand is that law school is effectively a vocational school. How well law school prepares one for the actual practice of law is another discussion entirely, but the idea is that you're being given skills that you will put to use in the professional workplace. As such, ROI is absolutely something that should be a consideration. Especially given the often astronomical cost. There are people who get JDs without much thought of working in the law. These tend to be the children of the super-rich, who don't need to pay off huge student loans and for whom it may occasionally be useful to have a JD (not to mention the connections they will make in law school).
Although it is perhaps not as bad as it was several years ago, the market for JDs is still over-saturated and the industry as a whole is contracting in terms of personnel. Offices that regularly brought in thirty summer associates ten years ago are now bringing in a dozen, and they aren't hiring as many of those after graduation. Most biglaw firms where an associate can earn enough to pay off the student debt in a reasonable period of time are only hiring from tier 1 law schools nowadays, so that's also something to consider. If you're thinking that the JD would be useful in some law-adjacent pursuit, I would encourage you to think carefully about how much benefit it would confer and whether it would be worth the money. If, on the other hand, you have the idea of earning a JD over a longer period of years in night school or whatever, at least you wouldn't be running up huge student debt and you'd continue to be fully employed. How much use that night school JD would be to you is another question, of course.
posted by slkinsey at 8:23 AM on September 12, 2018
By "Master of Laws" do you mean an LLM or something like a Master of Legal Studies? The former is, counterintuitively, something that people who are already lawyers tend to get in one of two very specific circumstances: foreign lawyers getting the LLM as a sort of bonus credential, and US tax lawyers getting an LLM in tax for reasons I neither understand nor care about because tax is boring.
As to the Master of Legal Studies, I don't have any clue what value it has in the workplace but I am deeply suspicious of such programs. It is conceivable that a given school might count it toward a JD but I very much doubt it.
If you are interested in academia, know in advance that it is a very difficult path. You will have to go to a top JD program (i.e. one of the top ten law schools, and ideally one of the top five), then get a fellowship after graduating and write some papers that publish well before going on the job market. Alternatively, you could get the JD and also a PhD and try to enter the market from that angle.
posted by sinfony at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2018
As to the Master of Legal Studies, I don't have any clue what value it has in the workplace but I am deeply suspicious of such programs. It is conceivable that a given school might count it toward a JD but I very much doubt it.
If you are interested in academia, know in advance that it is a very difficult path. You will have to go to a top JD program (i.e. one of the top ten law schools, and ideally one of the top five), then get a fellowship after graduating and write some papers that publish well before going on the job market. Alternatively, you could get the JD and also a PhD and try to enter the market from that angle.
posted by sinfony at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2018
An LLM is sometimes useful for a foreign-educated attorney who wants to practice in the United States. It is also sometimes useful for an attorney who wants to focus on a particular area of law (tax is the most common than I hear about). It is the kind of thing that is only a good idea if you know exactly what use you can put it to. I don't think this is a good idea in your position. JD programs generally don't accept credits from non-JD programs.
If you want to have an impact on public policy, an MPP is probably a better route, or a PhD in polisci. Being a lawyer doesn't really put you in a direct position to work on public policy.
Unless you can go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Stanford or Chicago, academia is an incredible, ridiculous longshot. At Yale, it's a longshot.
I went to law school at age 35, I really wish I had done it at 25 or 30, but feel like most of the doors I was interested in were still open to me at 35, albeit not as widely. It has turned out well for me, but it was a dicey proposition, and I graduated with less than average debt into a healthy job-market from a "top" school with a funded fellowship to help me get started. Oh, and I also had to move cross-country multiple times to get my career off the ground. If you start law school in 2019, who knows what the hiring market will be for nonprofits or governments when you graduate in 2022? It's a risky proposition.
Also recognize that a significant chunk of people with successful outcomes are unhappy with their careers and are out of the field within a few years. A lot of legal jobs really suck. Not just biglaw, which everyone knows sucks ("That's what the money's for!"). The meaningful, low-paying ones often grind people down and spit them out. Important, interesting work, good benefits and a collegial atmosphere? Well, that often goes with dismal pay in a high cost of living area, with just about no opportunity for advancement. And you need 3-5 years experience.
On Metafilter, the advice is usually "don't go to law school." Full stop. Perhaps because of my personal outcome, I am much more optimistic, and tell people "probably not." However, no one should go to law school unless they want to practice law, unless they are in a position where money is completely irrelevant.
posted by skewed at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2018
If you want to have an impact on public policy, an MPP is probably a better route, or a PhD in polisci. Being a lawyer doesn't really put you in a direct position to work on public policy.
Unless you can go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Stanford or Chicago, academia is an incredible, ridiculous longshot. At Yale, it's a longshot.
I went to law school at age 35, I really wish I had done it at 25 or 30, but feel like most of the doors I was interested in were still open to me at 35, albeit not as widely. It has turned out well for me, but it was a dicey proposition, and I graduated with less than average debt into a healthy job-market from a "top" school with a funded fellowship to help me get started. Oh, and I also had to move cross-country multiple times to get my career off the ground. If you start law school in 2019, who knows what the hiring market will be for nonprofits or governments when you graduate in 2022? It's a risky proposition.
Also recognize that a significant chunk of people with successful outcomes are unhappy with their careers and are out of the field within a few years. A lot of legal jobs really suck. Not just biglaw, which everyone knows sucks ("That's what the money's for!"). The meaningful, low-paying ones often grind people down and spit them out. Important, interesting work, good benefits and a collegial atmosphere? Well, that often goes with dismal pay in a high cost of living area, with just about no opportunity for advancement. And you need 3-5 years experience.
On Metafilter, the advice is usually "don't go to law school." Full stop. Perhaps because of my personal outcome, I am much more optimistic, and tell people "probably not." However, no one should go to law school unless they want to practice law, unless they are in a position where money is completely irrelevant.
posted by skewed at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2018
Typically, an LLM is for people who already have a degree in law and want to further specialize. Yes, it's peculiar. Generally Masters degrees come before the doctorate, but the JD was, until recently, an LLB or Bachelor of Laws. A few universities offer LLMs for non-lawyers but it's still very specialized, and even the article I just mentioned recommends a Juris Masters program for non-lawyers.
posted by ubiquity at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2018
posted by ubiquity at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2018
I'm not interested in a biglaw career--I'm looking at nonprofit, government, maybe even academia.
What kind of nonprofit, government, or academia? Each of those covers a tremendous range. For example, "prestige" government positions (e.g. federal prosecutors) are extremely competitive. To have a realistic shot at those you'll need to graduate at the top of your class from a well-known school. There's also a big difference between non-profits, and the kind that have "a direct impact on public policy" are almost always high-prestige, high-competitiveness positions.
The same is true for being a professor, if that's what you mean by academia. If you want to be a law professor specifically then you're looking at a very long, very uncertain path. The standard route is a JD from a prestigious law school and one or more of 1) a multi-year federal clerkship, 2) several years of prestige law practice, or 3) a PhD in a relevant field, also from a prestigious school. The odds of ultimately landing a stable academic position several years from now are not great, especially as most law schools are facing declining enrollment and thus looking to decrease rather than increase their tenure-track faculty.
What about Master of Laws/Master of Science in Law vs. a full JD?
There are three main reasons people get an LL.M degree:
1. You are a lawyer in a non-US jurisdiction and want to have some training in US law so you can better understand US legal issues that are relevant to clients in your home jurisdiction.
2. You are an American tax attorney and are getting additional training in US tax law. (This is basically the only legitimate reason for an American lawyer to get an LLM.)
3. You are an American attorney whose career stalled out (or never got off the ground) and think that doubling down on additional expensive legal education will help somehow. (Spoiler: it will not.)
Is a Master of Law worth the time/money? What's its credential value in the workplace?
Law schools are trying to fight declining enrollment in JD programs by selling people who don't want or need to become attorneys on the idea that an LL.M or LL.M-like degree will be helpful somehow. From the law school's point of view it's pure upside: they are offering the classes anyway, the students are paying full tuition, and they aren't competing with the JDs for jobs.
From the student's point of view, I think the value of such programs is extremely dubious. Imagine paying tens of thousands of dollars to take, say, gross anatomy and an introductory pathology class at a medical school to get a "Master's in Medical Studies". How helpful do you think that would be in a career in public health?
The bottom line is that law school is fundamentally a vocational / professional school. Trying to use a law school education to do something other than practice law is using the wrong tool for the job. I suspect you'll be better off directly studying the policy area that you want to work in (e.g. ecology / environmental science, social work, public health, political science, etc).
Finally, since you mention possibly becoming an attorney: understand that age discrimination is a serious problem in the legal market. This is only going to get worse as the market continues to be competitive and becomes increasingly reliant on technology. A lot of law firms labor under the delusion that younger people are inherently more skilled with technology (the myth of the 'digital native'). It's terrible and wrong, but it's reality. Whether you want to face that discrimination—and potentially lose years of effort and a very large amount of money with no career prospects to show for it as a result—is up to you, of course, but you should know that it's a very real problem.
posted by jedicus at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2018
What kind of nonprofit, government, or academia? Each of those covers a tremendous range. For example, "prestige" government positions (e.g. federal prosecutors) are extremely competitive. To have a realistic shot at those you'll need to graduate at the top of your class from a well-known school. There's also a big difference between non-profits, and the kind that have "a direct impact on public policy" are almost always high-prestige, high-competitiveness positions.
The same is true for being a professor, if that's what you mean by academia. If you want to be a law professor specifically then you're looking at a very long, very uncertain path. The standard route is a JD from a prestigious law school and one or more of 1) a multi-year federal clerkship, 2) several years of prestige law practice, or 3) a PhD in a relevant field, also from a prestigious school. The odds of ultimately landing a stable academic position several years from now are not great, especially as most law schools are facing declining enrollment and thus looking to decrease rather than increase their tenure-track faculty.
What about Master of Laws/Master of Science in Law vs. a full JD?
There are three main reasons people get an LL.M degree:
1. You are a lawyer in a non-US jurisdiction and want to have some training in US law so you can better understand US legal issues that are relevant to clients in your home jurisdiction.
2. You are an American tax attorney and are getting additional training in US tax law. (This is basically the only legitimate reason for an American lawyer to get an LLM.)
3. You are an American attorney whose career stalled out (or never got off the ground) and think that doubling down on additional expensive legal education will help somehow. (Spoiler: it will not.)
Is a Master of Law worth the time/money? What's its credential value in the workplace?
Law schools are trying to fight declining enrollment in JD programs by selling people who don't want or need to become attorneys on the idea that an LL.M or LL.M-like degree will be helpful somehow. From the law school's point of view it's pure upside: they are offering the classes anyway, the students are paying full tuition, and they aren't competing with the JDs for jobs.
From the student's point of view, I think the value of such programs is extremely dubious. Imagine paying tens of thousands of dollars to take, say, gross anatomy and an introductory pathology class at a medical school to get a "Master's in Medical Studies". How helpful do you think that would be in a career in public health?
The bottom line is that law school is fundamentally a vocational / professional school. Trying to use a law school education to do something other than practice law is using the wrong tool for the job. I suspect you'll be better off directly studying the policy area that you want to work in (e.g. ecology / environmental science, social work, public health, political science, etc).
Finally, since you mention possibly becoming an attorney: understand that age discrimination is a serious problem in the legal market. This is only going to get worse as the market continues to be competitive and becomes increasingly reliant on technology. A lot of law firms labor under the delusion that younger people are inherently more skilled with technology (the myth of the 'digital native'). It's terrible and wrong, but it's reality. Whether you want to face that discrimination—and potentially lose years of effort and a very large amount of money with no career prospects to show for it as a result—is up to you, of course, but you should know that it's a very real problem.
posted by jedicus at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2018
Going to law school is, in general, a terrible idea. I graduated 15 years ago and have barely put a dent in my student loans. At the very least, if you can't get into a T14 school then you are really wasting your time and money.
I agree with the others that a public policy degree would be more helpful, or studying the specific area you're interested in.
posted by orrnyereg at 9:02 AM on September 12, 2018
I agree with the others that a public policy degree would be more helpful, or studying the specific area you're interested in.
posted by orrnyereg at 9:02 AM on September 12, 2018
I personally know a woman, now aged 90, who had a very successful career in media throughout the 1970s and 1980s, one of the few women working as a TV producer at the time. But eventually she found it less meaningful. She quit TV and went to law school at age 57, and then had a satisfying, meaningful second career as a family lawyer in a poor, mostly immigrant city from age 60 to 75 -- that is, 15 years of a gratifying life for herself, earning less but feeling more at one with the person she now wanted to be. This woman's choice has inspired me in many ways and I think of it when I've thought I had missed a life chance because of my age or situation and have to decide how to live ... after all, she was going to be age 60. Did she want to be a 60 year old lawyer or a 60 year old TV producer? That, for her, was the choice..
posted by nantucket at 9:04 AM on September 12, 2018
posted by nantucket at 9:04 AM on September 12, 2018
As someone from the nonprofit sector who debates law school every 5 years, I appreciate this question. But my inclination is to treat law school as a last resort, for two reasons. (1) Even with loan forgiveness after 10 years, do you really want to sustain income-contingent payments of $700-1000 or more / month until you're 54? (That's a year to apply, three years to attend, and 10 years of payments.) (2) I know a lot of people making a difference on public policy without law degrees.
Do you already work for an advocacy non-profit? If not, that might be a good start. A well-run communications strategy can really help a campaign. If you do already, then I'm curious what's your theory of change that would lead you to need a law degree. A litigation strategy can sometimes create change where nothing else will and where all the political forces are against you, and your only real tools are some laws passed in the 70s. But in my field, legislation strikes me as the most promising avenue for change, and a lot of the advocates working with legislators on it don't have law degrees. In general I'd suggest talking to people who are doing the kinds of work you want to do and asking them what they see as the most efficient path toward a job like that.
posted by salvia at 9:06 AM on September 12, 2018
Do you already work for an advocacy non-profit? If not, that might be a good start. A well-run communications strategy can really help a campaign. If you do already, then I'm curious what's your theory of change that would lead you to need a law degree. A litigation strategy can sometimes create change where nothing else will and where all the political forces are against you, and your only real tools are some laws passed in the 70s. But in my field, legislation strikes me as the most promising avenue for change, and a lot of the advocates working with legislators on it don't have law degrees. In general I'd suggest talking to people who are doing the kinds of work you want to do and asking them what they see as the most efficient path toward a job like that.
posted by salvia at 9:06 AM on September 12, 2018
I’m a lawyer, graduated about ten years ago at the top of my class at the third tier law school (only law school) in my immediate local area which I attended on full scholarship. I have a secure job within government, which means I’ve done extremely well compared to most classmates.
I agree with those who have commented about how good legal opportunities (for various values of good) tend to be very competitive, which makes pursuing a JD a precarious path at best.
However, if you have a more concrete reason for wanting a JD than most of us are reading in your question AND you need it purely as a credential, not for networking purposes or to open genuinely new doors, AND you have potential to be a competitive candidate for a top school, you may want to consider a lower ranked law school if there is one near you. At such a school you may be able to get a scholarship that would mean paying little or no tuition. While I did this and it has worked out for me, I generally would not suggest it to someone considering law school unless they are on a path and really just need a JD to continue on that path.
A JD really is a terminal degree (except sometimes in tax as previously noted) and there are only limited ways to rehabilitate a degree from a low ranked school and many opportunities simply will not be open to folks with degrees from low ranked schools.
posted by ElizaMain at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2018
I agree with those who have commented about how good legal opportunities (for various values of good) tend to be very competitive, which makes pursuing a JD a precarious path at best.
However, if you have a more concrete reason for wanting a JD than most of us are reading in your question AND you need it purely as a credential, not for networking purposes or to open genuinely new doors, AND you have potential to be a competitive candidate for a top school, you may want to consider a lower ranked law school if there is one near you. At such a school you may be able to get a scholarship that would mean paying little or no tuition. While I did this and it has worked out for me, I generally would not suggest it to someone considering law school unless they are on a path and really just need a JD to continue on that path.
A JD really is a terminal degree (except sometimes in tax as previously noted) and there are only limited ways to rehabilitate a degree from a low ranked school and many opportunities simply will not be open to folks with degrees from low ranked schools.
posted by ElizaMain at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2018
I'm a communications professional in the nonprofit sector, but I'm coming to realize that I want to have more of a direct impact on public policy. I'm not interested in a biglaw career--I'm looking at nonprofit, government, maybe even academia.
I've worked in policy-related nonprofits (both technical assistance and advocacy) for about 7 years, and generally speaking, the program staff - the ones who do all the "making a direct impact" stuff - tend to have degrees in the specific subject area the nonprofit works in (or else they have other relevant experience/backgrounds). When I worked for an international policy org, most of them had degrees in international policy or something similar; when I worked for a legal aid nonprofit, then yes, they all had JDs, though they weren't practicing attorneys since they were working on policy. Now I work for an urban planning advocacy nonprofit, and most of the program staff either have urban planning degrees, or they came up through our community organizing teams and have no specifically relevant degrees. We also have a couple of program staff with social work degrees, since we work with some vulnerable populations. And we actually do have one lawyer on staff as well, who helps us develop legally viable policy proposals.
I work in development/fundraising, and I totally understand the desire to move out of the supportive sidelines and actually start doing the work yourself. I've thought about it many times. But unless you are specifically and exclusively interested in working on legal policy, I think a law degree is the wrong way to go.
I would take a step back and ask yourself what TYPE of public policy you might want to work on. That's step one. After that, a secondary degree of some kind might be a good move for you - but a law degree is less "portable" than you may be thinking.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:37 AM on September 12, 2018
I've worked in policy-related nonprofits (both technical assistance and advocacy) for about 7 years, and generally speaking, the program staff - the ones who do all the "making a direct impact" stuff - tend to have degrees in the specific subject area the nonprofit works in (or else they have other relevant experience/backgrounds). When I worked for an international policy org, most of them had degrees in international policy or something similar; when I worked for a legal aid nonprofit, then yes, they all had JDs, though they weren't practicing attorneys since they were working on policy. Now I work for an urban planning advocacy nonprofit, and most of the program staff either have urban planning degrees, or they came up through our community organizing teams and have no specifically relevant degrees. We also have a couple of program staff with social work degrees, since we work with some vulnerable populations. And we actually do have one lawyer on staff as well, who helps us develop legally viable policy proposals.
I work in development/fundraising, and I totally understand the desire to move out of the supportive sidelines and actually start doing the work yourself. I've thought about it many times. But unless you are specifically and exclusively interested in working on legal policy, I think a law degree is the wrong way to go.
I would take a step back and ask yourself what TYPE of public policy you might want to work on. That's step one. After that, a secondary degree of some kind might be a good move for you - but a law degree is less "portable" than you may be thinking.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:37 AM on September 12, 2018
I know that in some circles there is a perception that the only valuable terminal degrees are JDs and MBAs. That's not off-base if your ultimate goal is to be a lawyer or work in finance, but as showbiz_liz said, subject matter terminal degrees make more sense for some careers.
People are often nasty and ignorant about public policy degrees (I hear the "isn't that a worthless watered down MBA?" thing a lot) but you may be better served by one rather than trying to use a JD as a "master key" of a credential.
posted by blerghamot at 10:53 AM on September 12, 2018
People are often nasty and ignorant about public policy degrees (I hear the "isn't that a worthless watered down MBA?" thing a lot) but you may be better served by one rather than trying to use a JD as a "master key" of a credential.
posted by blerghamot at 10:53 AM on September 12, 2018
I also work in a nonprofit, in policy, and made the jump from comms to the policy/political side, and while I can definitely sympathize because it feels like there are approximately four squillion attorneys in DC, I second the suggestion to think about what kind of policy you're interested, and what specific kind of work you want to do (lobying? policy analysis and research? direct program management or field work?) and pursue study relevant to that. I have an MPA, and many of my colleagues have MPAs, MPPs, or degrees in planning/development or similar fields adjacent to the issues we work on at our organization. There are a lot more good MPA/MPP programs that are well-respected, much cheaper and less intensive than JDs, and will get you the benefits of a well-placed alumni network, faculty with field experience, and directly applicable coursework.
The other thing I would add, in addition to thinking about the area of practice you'd like to be in, is to think about where geographically you would like to work, if it isn't your current region, and look at school options there. I feel like policy graduate programs in particular are geography-specific, in that the faculty and classmate/alum network you build is most helpful in that particular place, and staying in the same city where you completed any internships/research projects/volunteer work is super helpful when it comes time to make the leap.
But also, like, look around and see what actual credentials people doing the work you want to do possess. I know a lot of well-respected nonprofit lobbyists with unrelated BAs. Don't inflict grad school and debt on yourself if you don't have to. I like having a graduate degree, but also, I probably would own a condo by now if I didn't. I made the move to the political side of the house before I went back to grad school, and I don't have a sense that it's made a huge difference in my salary (especially in the nonprofit sector).
posted by bowtiesarecool at 10:56 AM on September 12, 2018
The other thing I would add, in addition to thinking about the area of practice you'd like to be in, is to think about where geographically you would like to work, if it isn't your current region, and look at school options there. I feel like policy graduate programs in particular are geography-specific, in that the faculty and classmate/alum network you build is most helpful in that particular place, and staying in the same city where you completed any internships/research projects/volunteer work is super helpful when it comes time to make the leap.
But also, like, look around and see what actual credentials people doing the work you want to do possess. I know a lot of well-respected nonprofit lobbyists with unrelated BAs. Don't inflict grad school and debt on yourself if you don't have to. I like having a graduate degree, but also, I probably would own a condo by now if I didn't. I made the move to the political side of the house before I went back to grad school, and I don't have a sense that it's made a huge difference in my salary (especially in the nonprofit sector).
posted by bowtiesarecool at 10:56 AM on September 12, 2018
To add to that: I work in a non-legal field present in private, public, and NFP organizations. I've worked with JDs-turned-policy-wonks at all of these organizations, but they've either had experience practicing law related to our field in their lawyering days or have another graduate degree related to our field (sometimes an LLM related to our field, more often some other type of masters degree).
posted by blerghamot at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2018
posted by blerghamot at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2018
I second (fifth) the recommendations to consider a public policy program as an alternative. It's far less harrowing and expensive than law school, and I suspect the people may be nicer, as well.
posted by suelac at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2018
posted by suelac at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2018
I'm an attorney in policy work, who went to law school to do policy work, and I echo the sentiment you'd be better served by an MPA, MPP or related field. Because I work in court policy, I gain some benefit from having been a practicing attorney. But if you're not planning to work as attorney or work in some directly-related to law policy, that's irrelevant to you.
The primary benefit the JD gives me is that a significant portion of judges/lawyers/policy people with JDs only respect the opinions of JDs. That's both a stupid attitude on their part and a stupid reason for you to go to law school, especially if your goal is policy work that covers more fields than simply law.
Law school is good for two things: teaching you how lawyers approach and solve problems and giving you the opportunity to make the necessary social connections to get a good job and a law practice interesting to you. Does not sound like either of things are what you need.
posted by crush at 11:54 AM on September 12, 2018
The primary benefit the JD gives me is that a significant portion of judges/lawyers/policy people with JDs only respect the opinions of JDs. That's both a stupid attitude on their part and a stupid reason for you to go to law school, especially if your goal is policy work that covers more fields than simply law.
Law school is good for two things: teaching you how lawyers approach and solve problems and giving you the opportunity to make the necessary social connections to get a good job and a law practice interesting to you. Does not sound like either of things are what you need.
posted by crush at 11:54 AM on September 12, 2018
Yes, you sound like you want an MPP/MPA, not a JD. People do go from JDs to policy jobs, but usually these days that requires tooling around in a proper lawyer job for several years, building up subject-matter expertise. It's a lot of money for a degree you're not really going to be using.
(Speaking generally--I'm sure there are a few wacky exceptions out there--you will not be admitted to an LL.M. program without some sort of prior law degree. You would need to suck it up and go through the three-year J.D. program.)
posted by praemunire at 1:37 PM on September 12, 2018
(Speaking generally--I'm sure there are a few wacky exceptions out there--you will not be admitted to an LL.M. program without some sort of prior law degree. You would need to suck it up and go through the three-year J.D. program.)
posted by praemunire at 1:37 PM on September 12, 2018
I'm an attorney at a nonprofit. I have six figures of debt and will never get out from under what I owe. What I owe the feds is actually increasing, though being at a nonprofit means I'm finally eligible for the student loan forgiveness program. Which may or may not be there in the future, 45 is trying to kill it. Consider very seriously the amount of debt you will incur, and that nonprofits are often not the best paid jobs.
In general, what I say to people considering law school is not to go unless you need it to be happy.
It sounds like getting a master's in public policy is more in line with what you want on many levels. I think you should look into that first.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:35 PM on September 12, 2018
In general, what I say to people considering law school is not to go unless you need it to be happy.
It sounds like getting a master's in public policy is more in line with what you want on many levels. I think you should look into that first.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:35 PM on September 12, 2018
I have a Master in Public Policy and I strongly recommend doing some research into that. Or a MPA, which is often essentially the same degree. This field has one of strongest job placement records, and it would be great for networking, since all of your classmates will have the same professional interests, and even many of your profs will be prominent working professionals in the field. Whereas if you went to law school, most of your classmates would be angling for biglaw jobs (or mediumlaw jobs, depending on the caliber and geography of the school).
As mentioned above, many MPP/MPA programs have one-year programs for mid-career professionals. My classmates who did my alma mater’s version of that were really happy with it.
But I also want to say that I know nonprofit comms people who have made the switch to doing more policy related work. (I worked in both myself) It’s definitely possible to make that switch without further schooling, though the schooling (especially an MPA/MPP) makes it easier. Feel free to memail me if you have questions about this or about MPP/MPA programs.
posted by lunasol at 7:38 AM on September 13, 2018
As mentioned above, many MPP/MPA programs have one-year programs for mid-career professionals. My classmates who did my alma mater’s version of that were really happy with it.
But I also want to say that I know nonprofit comms people who have made the switch to doing more policy related work. (I worked in both myself) It’s definitely possible to make that switch without further schooling, though the schooling (especially an MPA/MPP) makes it easier. Feel free to memail me if you have questions about this or about MPP/MPA programs.
posted by lunasol at 7:38 AM on September 13, 2018
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posted by emkelley at 8:12 AM on September 12, 2018