Chimney question
February 7, 2006 5:04 PM
Chimney question: Buying my first house and (strangely) the gas water heater vents through the (unlined) chimney. Multiple options inside.
I'm buying my first house, which was built in 1940. It has two fireplaces (on the same chimney), one on the main floor and one in a basement family room, below. The inspection report says this: "The three chamber chimney flue has loose brick dividers, no liner, or chimney cap. This chimney has one unlined chamber used to vent the gas water heater. Even if this chimney were lined for the water heater exhaust, the fireplace should not be used and the damper kept closed to prevent fumes from back drafting into the home."
One option is simply to replace the gas water heater with an electric - however the energy costs are significantly higher with electric. The water heater is approximately 16 years old, so should be replaced, one way or the other, soon.
What are the other options? Can a stove pipe be put up through the chimney to vent the water heater (rather than venting into the chimney? Anything else that I should consider?
It is not recommended that the fireplaces be used with the present chimney situation (one that presumably been there since the house was built). Help!
I'm buying my first house, which was built in 1940. It has two fireplaces (on the same chimney), one on the main floor and one in a basement family room, below. The inspection report says this: "The three chamber chimney flue has loose brick dividers, no liner, or chimney cap. This chimney has one unlined chamber used to vent the gas water heater. Even if this chimney were lined for the water heater exhaust, the fireplace should not be used and the damper kept closed to prevent fumes from back drafting into the home."
One option is simply to replace the gas water heater with an electric - however the energy costs are significantly higher with electric. The water heater is approximately 16 years old, so should be replaced, one way or the other, soon.
What are the other options? Can a stove pipe be put up through the chimney to vent the water heater (rather than venting into the chimney? Anything else that I should consider?
It is not recommended that the fireplaces be used with the present chimney situation (one that presumably been there since the house was built). Help!
A friend just went through this exact situation. look into 'direct vent' water heaters. basically, they vent the combustion gasses out the side of the house via PVC pipes. in his situation it was cheaper to replace 2 water heaters and 2 furnaces with direct vent models than it was to repair the chimney.
posted by skatz at 5:48 PM on February 7, 2006
posted by skatz at 5:48 PM on February 7, 2006
From what I've (admittedly little) I've seen, it's almost certainly going to be cheaper to replace your existing water heaters and just reroute the vent than fixing the chimney, probably by quite a bit. Any moderately-competent contractor can do it.
As to electric vs. gas, yes, electric is more expensive to run. For now. Five years from now? And easier/cheaper to install, as has been said.
There's a third option, though, I think more expensive to buy but much more efficient and cheaper to run, and that's a tankless heater. You might look into them, and don't go cheap. I've seen houses that had crap ones installed, and they were inconsistent.
It does need to be fixed one way or another, if it's not vented properly. I feel you, though -- we discovered the previous owners of our house just vented the gas heater straight up into an un-vented attic. No shit. The woman and her daughter lived here for two years with that thing pumping exhaust into the attic. The girl is...a bit off.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:58 PM on February 7, 2006
As to electric vs. gas, yes, electric is more expensive to run. For now. Five years from now? And easier/cheaper to install, as has been said.
There's a third option, though, I think more expensive to buy but much more efficient and cheaper to run, and that's a tankless heater. You might look into them, and don't go cheap. I've seen houses that had crap ones installed, and they were inconsistent.
It does need to be fixed one way or another, if it's not vented properly. I feel you, though -- we discovered the previous owners of our house just vented the gas heater straight up into an un-vented attic. No shit. The woman and her daughter lived here for two years with that thing pumping exhaust into the attic. The girl is...a bit off.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:58 PM on February 7, 2006
Since you're doing all this retrofitting just to burn a fire, maybe you might consider a vented gas insert or better yet, a pellet stove. The old school fireplaces tend to suck out as much heat as they give.
posted by tfmm at 6:24 PM on February 7, 2006
posted by tfmm at 6:24 PM on February 7, 2006
I second the vented gas insert idea...we have two (actually one is an insert, the other is a gas woodstove), and we love them . We can keep the furnace thermostat way down, and use the gas appliances almost like space heaters, one in the LR, the other in the BR. No wood mess or labor, and they both work with a remote control! They are not cheap though, I think the insert was $1800, and the woodstove unit was over $2000. Installation was around $1200 , including the new pipe installed in the existing chimney, as well as the vent fan. Fixing our similarly affected chimney was estimated at $6000 ++, so we opted for the gas. Could not be happier.
posted by lobstah at 7:01 PM on February 7, 2006
posted by lobstah at 7:01 PM on February 7, 2006
Well lets see.. First 16 year old water heater? get rid of that pos. But with what, while DV (direct vent) heaters are nice most have a draft induced fan and pilot igniter that require electric. So no power = no hot water.
I would go for a low voltage automatic igniter b-vent gas water heater (low voltage ones use d cell batteries for backup) then get a b-vent reline kit. The ones i get are 35 foot x 4 inch with cap, flashing etc easy to install for around $150. then your chimney would be lined (for wh anyway). These kits are the same ones used to install gas inserts in chimneys.
The thankless heaters can be ok but still need a vent and a reline kit will work for that too.
As a side note anyone thinking electric rates in the us will go down anytime soon is smoking some good stuff (please send me some).
As for the other fireplaces you can reline those with gas kits for a gas insert or use a stainless steel kit for venting a woodburning stove or insert, most of those are 6". For all the other readers, never ever vent anything into a unlined masonry chimney, never ever. If you do a gas or wood stove or insert go heater rated (gas) or epa phase 2 (wood burning) do not use uncle bobs old potbelly stove.
Whatever you do, put a cap on top of you chimney or the weather will ruin your chimney.
On preview what lobstah and tfmn said except the pellet part, heh.
Full disclosure, i sell and install gas and wood hearth products and i would red tag your water heater for its bad bad venting :)
posted by blink_left at 7:18 PM on February 7, 2006
I would go for a low voltage automatic igniter b-vent gas water heater (low voltage ones use d cell batteries for backup) then get a b-vent reline kit. The ones i get are 35 foot x 4 inch with cap, flashing etc easy to install for around $150. then your chimney would be lined (for wh anyway). These kits are the same ones used to install gas inserts in chimneys.
The thankless heaters can be ok but still need a vent and a reline kit will work for that too.
As a side note anyone thinking electric rates in the us will go down anytime soon is smoking some good stuff (please send me some).
As for the other fireplaces you can reline those with gas kits for a gas insert or use a stainless steel kit for venting a woodburning stove or insert, most of those are 6". For all the other readers, never ever vent anything into a unlined masonry chimney, never ever. If you do a gas or wood stove or insert go heater rated (gas) or epa phase 2 (wood burning) do not use uncle bobs old potbelly stove.
Whatever you do, put a cap on top of you chimney or the weather will ruin your chimney.
On preview what lobstah and tfmn said except the pellet part, heh.
Full disclosure, i sell and install gas and wood hearth products and i would red tag your water heater for its bad bad venting :)
posted by blink_left at 7:18 PM on February 7, 2006
Also don't forget there are some tax credits for more efferent appliances including water heaters $300 Woot Woot Google has a ton of links but you knew that.......
posted by blink_left at 7:32 PM on February 7, 2006
posted by blink_left at 7:32 PM on February 7, 2006
No one has asked about your heater. Gas fired forced air? Oil fired hot water radiators? How is your existing furnace being vented?
blink_left: It's within code here (Cheltenham Twp, Montgomery County, PA, USA) to vent hot water exhaust and gas-fired furnace exhaust into unlined chimneys. I thought the concern was that with modern systems the air temp of the exhaust was not high enough to prevent condensation forming and destroying the mortar inside the chimney. As long as there is sufficient waste heat there shouldn't be a problem. We're venting water heater and furnace into unlined chimney, the chimney was inspected when we purchased the house and HVAC contractor saw no reason to line it.
posted by fixedgear at 2:07 AM on February 8, 2006
blink_left: It's within code here (Cheltenham Twp, Montgomery County, PA, USA) to vent hot water exhaust and gas-fired furnace exhaust into unlined chimneys. I thought the concern was that with modern systems the air temp of the exhaust was not high enough to prevent condensation forming and destroying the mortar inside the chimney. As long as there is sufficient waste heat there shouldn't be a problem. We're venting water heater and furnace into unlined chimney, the chimney was inspected when we purchased the house and HVAC contractor saw no reason to line it.
posted by fixedgear at 2:07 AM on February 8, 2006
Get a new gas heater that vents through the wall, as others have said. I think blink_left meant a tankless heater, BTW.
Sixty years of water vapor condensing in that chimney may cause you grief later. I had a house with a similar setup, and the chimney above the attic floor powdered. You could stick your finger all the way through it. The chimney had to be rebuilt from the basement up - very expensive. This was in New England; the temperatures in Nebraska are probably comparable.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:15 AM on February 8, 2006
Sixty years of water vapor condensing in that chimney may cause you grief later. I had a house with a similar setup, and the chimney above the attic floor powdered. You could stick your finger all the way through it. The chimney had to be rebuilt from the basement up - very expensive. This was in New England; the temperatures in Nebraska are probably comparable.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:15 AM on February 8, 2006
Don't get a tankless heater. They have short lifespans and are hard to repair (from what I've learned about them). We call them power-vent water heaters around here (as opposed to direct vent). Vents through the wall, etc. I would suggest this is your best bet. I wouldn't worry about power outages causing a loss of hot water unless your area is prone to power outages.
Depending where you live, it may not be possible to get anything but a power-vented tank: in the process of looking to get my furnace replaced, I was told that they couldn't leave behind anything that didn't meet code, so even if they didn't touch my water heater (which vents through an unlined chimney) they'd have to line the chimney or disconnect the water heater, as the setup I have now doesn't meet the more modern code. My chimney is, like yours, unlineable.
Anyway, a new tank is cheap - a power-vented tank at home depot is $800 CDN. Cheap versus $18/month from Direct Energy.
posted by GuyZero at 6:34 AM on February 8, 2006
Depending where you live, it may not be possible to get anything but a power-vented tank: in the process of looking to get my furnace replaced, I was told that they couldn't leave behind anything that didn't meet code, so even if they didn't touch my water heater (which vents through an unlined chimney) they'd have to line the chimney or disconnect the water heater, as the setup I have now doesn't meet the more modern code. My chimney is, like yours, unlineable.
Anyway, a new tank is cheap - a power-vented tank at home depot is $800 CDN. Cheap versus $18/month from Direct Energy.
posted by GuyZero at 6:34 AM on February 8, 2006
Caveat: If you get a heater vented through the wall, make damned sure the vent cannot be clogged by drifting snow or anything else. An entire family died here last winter, asphyxiated by a snow-clogged water heater exhaust.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:14 AM on February 8, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:14 AM on February 8, 2006
Lots of good info here, thanks to ALL for responding. The furnace is a newer higher efficiency which does not vent through the chimney. I have some HVAC people coming to look at things today or tomorrow and you've given me a good education on options and what to ask about.
The other problem with this particular house and the electric water heater solution is that the electrical service needs to be upgraded before it can even HANDLE an electric water heater!
Gee, this is sorta stressful!
posted by spock at 9:32 AM on February 8, 2006
The other problem with this particular house and the electric water heater solution is that the electrical service needs to be upgraded before it can even HANDLE an electric water heater!
Gee, this is sorta stressful!
posted by spock at 9:32 AM on February 8, 2006
maybe an obvious question but can you vent your new gas water heater through the same pipe that your newer furnace vents through? (I'm assuming your furnace is gas as well).
I have an old chimmney that I just tore out because it wasn't being used for anything and was able to create some space on my upper floor. The gas furnace and water heater both vent through a seperate pipe up to the roof.
posted by jacobsee at 10:03 AM on February 8, 2006
I have an old chimmney that I just tore out because it wasn't being used for anything and was able to create some space on my upper floor. The gas furnace and water heater both vent through a seperate pipe up to the roof.
posted by jacobsee at 10:03 AM on February 8, 2006
That's one of the things I'm going to look at when I get back in the house today, but I believe that the new furnace is vented with PVC and a gas hot water heater can't vent into that.
posted by spock at 11:04 AM on February 8, 2006
posted by spock at 11:04 AM on February 8, 2006
maybe an obvious question but can you vent your new gas water heater through the same pipe that your newer furnace vents through? (I'm assuming your furnace is gas as well).
I asked the same question of my furnace people as I quoted out a new furnace. For "code reasons" (in Ontario) a power-vent water heater cannot share the same pipe as a furnace. The exhausts have to be something like 3 feet apart even.
The PV water heater does vent via PVC pipe though. I dunno how it cools the exhaust - maybe it brings in some additional cool air from your basement to lower the temperature of the exhaust.
posted by GuyZero at 11:13 AM on February 8, 2006
I asked the same question of my furnace people as I quoted out a new furnace. For "code reasons" (in Ontario) a power-vent water heater cannot share the same pipe as a furnace. The exhausts have to be something like 3 feet apart even.
The PV water heater does vent via PVC pipe though. I dunno how it cools the exhaust - maybe it brings in some additional cool air from your basement to lower the temperature of the exhaust.
posted by GuyZero at 11:13 AM on February 8, 2006
As a side note anyone thinking electric rates in the us will go down anytime soon is smoking some good stuff (please send me some).
Not that electric rates will go down, but that gas rates will go up. Don't know about you, but my gas bill is double last winter's, and last winter's was about 40% over the previous winter. My uncle's is now officially the same as his mortgage payment. So I've been looking for electric options, myself. YMMV.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:17 PM on February 8, 2006
Not that electric rates will go down, but that gas rates will go up. Don't know about you, but my gas bill is double last winter's, and last winter's was about 40% over the previous winter. My uncle's is now officially the same as his mortgage payment. So I've been looking for electric options, myself. YMMV.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:17 PM on February 8, 2006
"It's within code here (Cheltenham Twp, Montgomery County, PA, USA) to vent hot water exhaust and gas-fired furnace exhaust into unlined chimneys." ahh i am in the uptight code land called california, but newer versions of the uniform building code do call for liners.
"Sixty years of water vapor condensing in that chimney may cause you grief later." Each therm of nat gas (100,000 btu's) produces about a gallon of water as vapor plus whatever moisture that is in the air. Liners be good.
Be safe :)
posted by blink_left at 4:34 PM on February 8, 2006
"Sixty years of water vapor condensing in that chimney may cause you grief later." Each therm of nat gas (100,000 btu's) produces about a gallon of water as vapor plus whatever moisture that is in the air. Liners be good.
Be safe :)
posted by blink_left at 4:34 PM on February 8, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
Also note that gas is getting scarce and expensive. Electricity separates you from the power generation method...it can be wind or solar or nuclear. You don't care, it's just power. Gas appliances, on the other hand, can only be run by gas. So an electric water heater may be more expensive now, but it could very, very well end up being cheaper in the long haul.
Personally, I'd just spend $200, put in an electric heater, and forget about that problem. On the unlined chimney.... I'll defer to those with more expertise.
posted by Malor at 5:35 PM on February 7, 2006