My racist in-laws
August 18, 2017 6:31 AM
My husband's entire immediate family is pro-Trump/republican/conservative, pro-white (or on the less-evil end, "colorblind", uncomfortable with LGBTQ (unless they know someone personally or like a celebrity), anti-immigration, etc etc. How to handle this going forward, especially with my 3 year old?
I don't want to get too specific here but there is a scale and not all of them are at the most evil end of it, but they have all expressed feelings and ideals (and made jokes) that absolutely do not match with myself or my husband's way of looking at the world (the two of us are white, privileged, upper middle class, cis, hetero). We don't see them much because they all live relatively far away.
They know our world views pretty clearly and they still try to argue with us, make comments and jokes in front of us to see how we'll react, and the s*** they post on facebook is pretty terrible. They are all academically gifted and ALL highly enjoy debating, and getting the last word. This makes me shut down, disengage, and leave the room, usually saying something like, "You know how I feel about that" or "I don't agree and I know I can't change your mind" before leaving. A couple of times I was "cornered" one on one with someone and I basically held my ground with as little emotion and words as possible, and it was exhausting. My husband will get into arguments that get nowhere except making him angrier. He only recently started talking to his parents again after the election.
And they are still our family, and my husband and I do not want to completely shut them out of our lives. His parents are probably visiting soon. I want to (am trying to actively) raise my son to be an ally, be anti-racist, pro-feminist, and I also want to raise him to have a relationship with his grandparents. Is this even possible? Right now I'm telling myself that as long as I continue to talk about our worldviews, and talk about why certain people (like his relatives) might feel differently, and that we can disagree with them and tell them why without expecting to change their minds (or calling them bad words), then it's still ok to love them as his family. (Obviously this will be a gradual, building conversation over many years, not all while he's 3). But is this really teaching and modeling to him "let's all just get along, live in peace" white privilege mindset? And I'm still not sure how to react when grandma says something in front of him, especially now that he is listening to the adults more often than not. Do I just say something like, "Grandma you know we don't agree, let's talk about or do xyz instead", or even say, "My son and I are going to play in the other room now, don't ever say that again in front of him."
I read articles and statements along the lines of, "Your white silence kills" and "Unfriend me now if you are not actively calling BS on every single person you know who supports and condones what's going on" and I feel like a terrible helpless fake "ally", because I know for a fact I'm not going to actively fight and cut off my in-laws. (though if my husband reached a point where he thought that was appropriate, I would support him). For the record there are other family members of color, and they have chosen to remain as distant as possible from other family members, but not cutting them off entirely, but that is just my observation and I don't know any more in-depth conversations they've had about this whole thing.
so... anyone else been here?
I don't want to get too specific here but there is a scale and not all of them are at the most evil end of it, but they have all expressed feelings and ideals (and made jokes) that absolutely do not match with myself or my husband's way of looking at the world (the two of us are white, privileged, upper middle class, cis, hetero). We don't see them much because they all live relatively far away.
They know our world views pretty clearly and they still try to argue with us, make comments and jokes in front of us to see how we'll react, and the s*** they post on facebook is pretty terrible. They are all academically gifted and ALL highly enjoy debating, and getting the last word. This makes me shut down, disengage, and leave the room, usually saying something like, "You know how I feel about that" or "I don't agree and I know I can't change your mind" before leaving. A couple of times I was "cornered" one on one with someone and I basically held my ground with as little emotion and words as possible, and it was exhausting. My husband will get into arguments that get nowhere except making him angrier. He only recently started talking to his parents again after the election.
And they are still our family, and my husband and I do not want to completely shut them out of our lives. His parents are probably visiting soon. I want to (am trying to actively) raise my son to be an ally, be anti-racist, pro-feminist, and I also want to raise him to have a relationship with his grandparents. Is this even possible? Right now I'm telling myself that as long as I continue to talk about our worldviews, and talk about why certain people (like his relatives) might feel differently, and that we can disagree with them and tell them why without expecting to change their minds (or calling them bad words), then it's still ok to love them as his family. (Obviously this will be a gradual, building conversation over many years, not all while he's 3). But is this really teaching and modeling to him "let's all just get along, live in peace" white privilege mindset? And I'm still not sure how to react when grandma says something in front of him, especially now that he is listening to the adults more often than not. Do I just say something like, "Grandma you know we don't agree, let's talk about or do xyz instead", or even say, "My son and I are going to play in the other room now, don't ever say that again in front of him."
I read articles and statements along the lines of, "Your white silence kills" and "Unfriend me now if you are not actively calling BS on every single person you know who supports and condones what's going on" and I feel like a terrible helpless fake "ally", because I know for a fact I'm not going to actively fight and cut off my in-laws. (though if my husband reached a point where he thought that was appropriate, I would support him). For the record there are other family members of color, and they have chosen to remain as distant as possible from other family members, but not cutting them off entirely, but that is just my observation and I don't know any more in-depth conversations they've had about this whole thing.
so... anyone else been here?
I read articles and statements along the lines of, "Your white silence kills" and "Unfriend me now if you are not actively calling BS on every single person you know who supports and condones what's going on" and I feel like a terrible helpless fake "ally",
I am not in this situation, so I can't give you great advice, but I did want to say two things about this part: 1. People talk pretty big on social media, but most of us can't live our lives like we're on twitter, and most people will understand this. 2. What I've heard more than this from friends who are activist POCs is that unfriending/cutting off racist white family/friends is actually counter-productive. Like someone smart (I can't remember who) on twitter said this week: "White folks, you need to collect your people."
Whether that means just raising your child to be anti-racist/anti-oppression, or engaging some of the more reasonable relatives in conversation is up to you, but don't feel like you need to never talk to these people again to be a good ally.
posted by lunasol at 6:53 AM on August 18, 2017
I am not in this situation, so I can't give you great advice, but I did want to say two things about this part: 1. People talk pretty big on social media, but most of us can't live our lives like we're on twitter, and most people will understand this. 2. What I've heard more than this from friends who are activist POCs is that unfriending/cutting off racist white family/friends is actually counter-productive. Like someone smart (I can't remember who) on twitter said this week: "White folks, you need to collect your people."
Whether that means just raising your child to be anti-racist/anti-oppression, or engaging some of the more reasonable relatives in conversation is up to you, but don't feel like you need to never talk to these people again to be a good ally.
posted by lunasol at 6:53 AM on August 18, 2017
I want to (am trying to actively) raise my son to be an ally, be anti-racist, pro-feminist
I think you lead by example. If this is who you want your son to be, show him by being these things actively and proudly. Being an ally doesn't have to mean cutting these people out of your lives, but you need to be actively vigilant to speak up whenever their words or actions differ from the example of what you want your son to be. Show him how to be anti-racist and a feminist in the face of racist or anti-feminist rhetoric.
Depending on your personality, doing this can be tough (I know it is for me), but I think we need to hold ourselves to higher standards when we are serving as examples for our kids.
Good luck.
posted by Betelgeuse at 7:13 AM on August 18, 2017
I think you lead by example. If this is who you want your son to be, show him by being these things actively and proudly. Being an ally doesn't have to mean cutting these people out of your lives, but you need to be actively vigilant to speak up whenever their words or actions differ from the example of what you want your son to be. Show him how to be anti-racist and a feminist in the face of racist or anti-feminist rhetoric.
Depending on your personality, doing this can be tough (I know it is for me), but I think we need to hold ourselves to higher standards when we are serving as examples for our kids.
Good luck.
posted by Betelgeuse at 7:13 AM on August 18, 2017
I am opposed to "white people are obligated to change their shit relatives" because a) many families are so abusive this is dangerous/unhealthy b) some people only respond to consequences because, as white people, they're unfamiliar with them.
They know the arguments against, they're not just uninformed. This is such a fun delusion among white people, that the only reason people are wrong is that they simply don't know better, nobody's ever held responsible for their choices.
I am firmly in the camp of "some people don't deserve to see their grandkids." You are entirely in control of this. You get to choose what kind of environment is and isn't okay for your children.
I don't really think it's okay to "love them as a family" if they are violent (racism is violence, sending out a constant riptide of disrespect for your positions is violence), this is also a form of whiteness that can end any time now. You are not obligated to condone this behavior Because Family. That's part of what gives white supremacy its tensile strength, this idea that whaddaya gonna do, I have to be loyal to my racists because they're mine. If you raise your child to tolerate racism, and to tolerate the shitty behavior of white people, that's what you are teaching them. That is what you are practicing and demonstrating. I do not believe you are "raising an ally" if that is what you do. You're raising yet another white person who's going to "well, they mean well, whaddayagonnado" about racism.
Your highly-intelligent in-laws have chosen to be this way and they want your child to be this way. Why would you stand for that?
posted by Lyn Never at 7:16 AM on August 18, 2017
They know the arguments against, they're not just uninformed. This is such a fun delusion among white people, that the only reason people are wrong is that they simply don't know better, nobody's ever held responsible for their choices.
I am firmly in the camp of "some people don't deserve to see their grandkids." You are entirely in control of this. You get to choose what kind of environment is and isn't okay for your children.
I don't really think it's okay to "love them as a family" if they are violent (racism is violence, sending out a constant riptide of disrespect for your positions is violence), this is also a form of whiteness that can end any time now. You are not obligated to condone this behavior Because Family. That's part of what gives white supremacy its tensile strength, this idea that whaddaya gonna do, I have to be loyal to my racists because they're mine. If you raise your child to tolerate racism, and to tolerate the shitty behavior of white people, that's what you are teaching them. That is what you are practicing and demonstrating. I do not believe you are "raising an ally" if that is what you do. You're raising yet another white person who's going to "well, they mean well, whaddayagonnado" about racism.
Your highly-intelligent in-laws have chosen to be this way and they want your child to be this way. Why would you stand for that?
posted by Lyn Never at 7:16 AM on August 18, 2017
Being an ally explicitly means NOT cutting these people out of your life. It means working to change them through a long series of difficult conversations. You can shield your child from them if you feel that's appropriate (but maybe not- as they get older you become a role model for the kind of person you want them to become). But if you wash your hands of them, that's not allyship.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:26 AM on August 18, 2017
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:26 AM on August 18, 2017
I'm confused by this question. If they are coming for a visit, they are your guests, and your husband can make the acceptable standard of behaviour in your home clear. While I am all for showing your son how to be anti-facist and anti-racist, he is three and his comprehension levels are the developmentally appropriate ones of a three year old.
To me, both of those things are executed as one, by explaining to and enforcing with your in-laws your family boundaries, both with and without your son present:
"We don't say things like that in this house."
"In our family we respect all people."
"Oh dear, nanny and grandpa have to go now. Say bye-bye; we're going for a walk this very second."
posted by DarlingBri at 8:00 AM on August 18, 2017
To me, both of those things are executed as one, by explaining to and enforcing with your in-laws your family boundaries, both with and without your son present:
"We don't say things like that in this house."
"In our family we respect all people."
"Oh dear, nanny and grandpa have to go now. Say bye-bye; we're going for a walk this very second."
posted by DarlingBri at 8:00 AM on August 18, 2017
People ask people to not smoke, to not swear, or to not to 100's of other things around their children. There is nothing wrong with asking someone to respect your beliefs be they religious or political when around your child. When Grandma says something racist, ask her not to say those things around your child, politely & calmly. We are not raising him that way thank you. I ask you to respect our beliefs when around our child, there are many other things you are welcome to talk to him about but politics & racist/homophobic comments aren't allowed. If they continue & ignore your polite requests, then do what you'd do if they were say smoking. Politely pack up & leave. If they want to see grandkid, especially if they are going to be staying/visiting your house they respect your beliefs. Because I bet you they'd expect you to do the same when you visit theirs. You may want to encourage them to stay in a hotel by the way, some space away from each other might be good.
They will bitch & moan & carry on like you're being outrageous at first because they are hoping to not have to follow through. But just politely keep up the quietly & politely requesting they stop and leaving, or hanging up the phone or stopping texting or whatever when they break the boundary.
This is the technique I've seen successfully used with families with narcissistic parents when they with issues about religions or lifestyle choices, I've never seen it used in regard to politics . You are simply setting & defending boundaries. There is nothing wrong with enforcing your families boundaries. Also get your partner on side, the boundaries will have more effect coming from him as he is the direct relative.
Once you have boundaries firmly established & being respected, that's when you can enter into the difficult conversations when & how you see fit If they're not going to do something as simple as respect your boundaries, they're not going to listen to anything you have to say anyway.
posted by wwax at 8:14 AM on August 18, 2017
They will bitch & moan & carry on like you're being outrageous at first because they are hoping to not have to follow through. But just politely keep up the quietly & politely requesting they stop and leaving, or hanging up the phone or stopping texting or whatever when they break the boundary.
This is the technique I've seen successfully used with families with narcissistic parents when they with issues about religions or lifestyle choices, I've never seen it used in regard to politics . You are simply setting & defending boundaries. There is nothing wrong with enforcing your families boundaries. Also get your partner on side, the boundaries will have more effect coming from him as he is the direct relative.
Once you have boundaries firmly established & being respected, that's when you can enter into the difficult conversations when & how you see fit If they're not going to do something as simple as respect your boundaries, they're not going to listen to anything you have to say anyway.
posted by wwax at 8:14 AM on August 18, 2017
It's like Todd Parr says: It's okay to say no to bad things.
The way we are handling this with our child who is old enough to understand what he hears, is that we only meet these people out at restaurants or in their homes so that we preserve the ability to leave at any time. The one time we stayed overnight at their home I regretted it and will not be doing so again.
We did recently deal with a family member saying something explicitly racist at a restaurant dinner. I said, "Hey, that sounds racist," at the same time as my husband said, "You can't say that." Relative pushed back that what was being said was not racist because it was factual. We responded that we could discuss this another time when child was not present, and continued to repeat that, talking over the relative, until it was clear that the subject would go no further. Then my husband changed the topic to something entirely different.
If the relative had pressed on with the conversation, I would have turned to our child and said something matter-of-fact, like "[Relative] is saying that people with [this background] are not as smart as people from other backgrounds. We disagree with him and believe that all people are different, and that you can't group them by how they look or where their ancestors are from or what their gender is." Our child has heard this statement many times and knows when to apply it.
Maybe it's a good learning opportunity, you know? Your child won't be as ignorant of these toxic beliefs as some other children, and will learn young how to counter them. Children of color face these things from birth.
posted by xo at 8:40 AM on August 18, 2017
The way we are handling this with our child who is old enough to understand what he hears, is that we only meet these people out at restaurants or in their homes so that we preserve the ability to leave at any time. The one time we stayed overnight at their home I regretted it and will not be doing so again.
We did recently deal with a family member saying something explicitly racist at a restaurant dinner. I said, "Hey, that sounds racist," at the same time as my husband said, "You can't say that." Relative pushed back that what was being said was not racist because it was factual. We responded that we could discuss this another time when child was not present, and continued to repeat that, talking over the relative, until it was clear that the subject would go no further. Then my husband changed the topic to something entirely different.
If the relative had pressed on with the conversation, I would have turned to our child and said something matter-of-fact, like "[Relative] is saying that people with [this background] are not as smart as people from other backgrounds. We disagree with him and believe that all people are different, and that you can't group them by how they look or where their ancestors are from or what their gender is." Our child has heard this statement many times and knows when to apply it.
Maybe it's a good learning opportunity, you know? Your child won't be as ignorant of these toxic beliefs as some other children, and will learn young how to counter them. Children of color face these things from birth.
posted by xo at 8:40 AM on August 18, 2017
I tend to think that people advocating for those "long series of difficult conversations" with really racist relatives don't have any racist relatives. Like...Twitter dude...I don't know what to tell you, but my racist, misogynist, homophobic, Islamophobic, abusive uncle is all of those things because he is a genuinely bad person (not something I say often), eaten up with anger, fear, and hate, and he is really not interested in hearing what his unmarried(/probably a lesbian, why else would a woman not be married at her age?), atheist, commie pinko niece has to say about anything, unless it's a grovelling repentance for ever having opposed his views. I couldn't even rule out physical violence as a result of any such "difficult conversation" with him.
I mean, I have seen relatives change their views from time to time--my mom went from "gay people are called to celibacy" to "fuck it, if the Anglicans won't recognize LGBT bishops ordained here in the US, let's have that schism"--but (a) that took like 25 years; (b) was accompanied by a huge shift in social baselines; and (c) involved someone who doesn't have a hateful bone in her body. It's a low-probability event, and it's unlikely to happen with people who are making a point of being nasty to you by cornering you to express their ugly views.
If you're not comfortable cutting them off completely, I advocate the boundary-drawing methods described above. Added bonus: it will most likely extort some respect for them. Right now they feel comfortable cornering you because they think they can control the situation and you won't do anything about it, but rather will focus on disciplining yourself not to cause conflict. They will be quite startled to learn that you can stand up for yourself and your child in a calm, firm way.
posted by praemunire at 8:41 AM on August 18, 2017
I mean, I have seen relatives change their views from time to time--my mom went from "gay people are called to celibacy" to "fuck it, if the Anglicans won't recognize LGBT bishops ordained here in the US, let's have that schism"--but (a) that took like 25 years; (b) was accompanied by a huge shift in social baselines; and (c) involved someone who doesn't have a hateful bone in her body. It's a low-probability event, and it's unlikely to happen with people who are making a point of being nasty to you by cornering you to express their ugly views.
If you're not comfortable cutting them off completely, I advocate the boundary-drawing methods described above. Added bonus: it will most likely extort some respect for them. Right now they feel comfortable cornering you because they think they can control the situation and you won't do anything about it, but rather will focus on disciplining yourself not to cause conflict. They will be quite startled to learn that you can stand up for yourself and your child in a calm, firm way.
posted by praemunire at 8:41 AM on August 18, 2017
You've married into my family and I'm sorry for that.
It's hard since you're the in-law and the weight of the work is going to have to fall on your husband's shoulders. He's the one who can stand up to them and he is the one who has to. For your part, just leave the room mid-sentence if they start. If anyone makes a deal about it, you can say, "I've told you time and time again that those kinds of comments are unwelcome. Please respect that."
I did a lot of work with my parents and family members. My mother is far more aware than she ever was now and does not say or even act on racist shit. Before he passed, my dad had made great strides towards being a much better human. He wasn't perfect, but who is. But all that work was done by me, not my spouse. Although my husband did back me up a number of times when necessary.
posted by teleri025 at 9:43 AM on August 18, 2017
It's hard since you're the in-law and the weight of the work is going to have to fall on your husband's shoulders. He's the one who can stand up to them and he is the one who has to. For your part, just leave the room mid-sentence if they start. If anyone makes a deal about it, you can say, "I've told you time and time again that those kinds of comments are unwelcome. Please respect that."
I did a lot of work with my parents and family members. My mother is far more aware than she ever was now and does not say or even act on racist shit. Before he passed, my dad had made great strides towards being a much better human. He wasn't perfect, but who is. But all that work was done by me, not my spouse. Although my husband did back me up a number of times when necessary.
posted by teleri025 at 9:43 AM on August 18, 2017
I think there are maybe separate problems here?
1) how to draw boundaries in the moment, and
2) how to raise your child to be an ally.
These problems come into contact, of course, but maybe it helps to have two separate, if inter-related strategies.
I think that's what missing from how you describe your previous interactions is that your boundaries don't come with consequences if they're breached. I do a little more emotional labor than necessary in these situations, but I might try something more like this in the moment, when hate speech is flying: "I am so sorry, but really -- statements like that are just unacceptable in my home and/or around my child. If there's one more statement that I find to be problematic, I will end this visit, and I will have to think more about how best to move forward in the future." If you want to explain more (and I don't think you have to), you might add: "I'd like to be able to persuade you to think differently, but that doesn't seem possible right now. Nevertheless, I won't let the kinds of statements you're making continue to be made here. I'm going to take a walk now, and when I come back, I hope you'll have decided if you can continue your visit knowing that either these conversational topics are completely off limits, or they'll have to be undertaken in a manner that I feel acknowledges and respects my values. " Or something like that.
I would never get into a situation again where you're cornered and have to keep your cool. "I'm sorry, but I'm not having this conversation with you because I don't believe that you are having it in good faith. I'm going to take a walk right now, and when I get back, either we have to stop talking about this or we have to talk about it in a way that I find acceptable. If those things can't happen, I'm going to leave and think more about how to proceed in the future."
"This conversation is inappropriate for you to have in front of my child. And if you can't stop having it or change the manner in which it is being conducted, we're going to leave. I'm going to go outside for a minute and collect myself."
For me, I've included all that talk about going outside because I think it also presents a good opportunity to take your child along with you and remind your child about your values and to spend time together thinking about how best to respond to these kinds of situations. I really like xo's script for what to say.
Others here have more insight into what kind of tactics are best suited for persuading your bigoted relatives to change; I'm not sure you really can, to be honest, or that your time and energy is best spent on that.
But I tend to think even the basic fact of drawing boundaries and imposing consequences that remind bigots that they do not have the power to determine or control the terms on which these conversations or our interpersonal relationships occur in everyday life does some important political work.
Personally, I have had positive experiences in the past asking what people they stand for rather than what they are against, shifting them from critique to vision. But that does sort of assume that questions like, "Well, what do you hope for the future? What are the values that you think are the most important that we should all hold dear? How would you solve this problem in a way that gets us closer to a greater good?" will be answered by someone who is not, frankly, evil. And these days, I don't know. I'm truly terrified by how some folks might respond to those questions now. .02.
posted by pinkacademic at 10:15 AM on August 18, 2017
1) how to draw boundaries in the moment, and
2) how to raise your child to be an ally.
These problems come into contact, of course, but maybe it helps to have two separate, if inter-related strategies.
I think that's what missing from how you describe your previous interactions is that your boundaries don't come with consequences if they're breached. I do a little more emotional labor than necessary in these situations, but I might try something more like this in the moment, when hate speech is flying: "I am so sorry, but really -- statements like that are just unacceptable in my home and/or around my child. If there's one more statement that I find to be problematic, I will end this visit, and I will have to think more about how best to move forward in the future." If you want to explain more (and I don't think you have to), you might add: "I'd like to be able to persuade you to think differently, but that doesn't seem possible right now. Nevertheless, I won't let the kinds of statements you're making continue to be made here. I'm going to take a walk now, and when I come back, I hope you'll have decided if you can continue your visit knowing that either these conversational topics are completely off limits, or they'll have to be undertaken in a manner that I feel acknowledges and respects my values. " Or something like that.
I would never get into a situation again where you're cornered and have to keep your cool. "I'm sorry, but I'm not having this conversation with you because I don't believe that you are having it in good faith. I'm going to take a walk right now, and when I get back, either we have to stop talking about this or we have to talk about it in a way that I find acceptable. If those things can't happen, I'm going to leave and think more about how to proceed in the future."
"This conversation is inappropriate for you to have in front of my child. And if you can't stop having it or change the manner in which it is being conducted, we're going to leave. I'm going to go outside for a minute and collect myself."
For me, I've included all that talk about going outside because I think it also presents a good opportunity to take your child along with you and remind your child about your values and to spend time together thinking about how best to respond to these kinds of situations. I really like xo's script for what to say.
Others here have more insight into what kind of tactics are best suited for persuading your bigoted relatives to change; I'm not sure you really can, to be honest, or that your time and energy is best spent on that.
But I tend to think even the basic fact of drawing boundaries and imposing consequences that remind bigots that they do not have the power to determine or control the terms on which these conversations or our interpersonal relationships occur in everyday life does some important political work.
Personally, I have had positive experiences in the past asking what people they stand for rather than what they are against, shifting them from critique to vision. But that does sort of assume that questions like, "Well, what do you hope for the future? What are the values that you think are the most important that we should all hold dear? How would you solve this problem in a way that gets us closer to a greater good?" will be answered by someone who is not, frankly, evil. And these days, I don't know. I'm truly terrified by how some folks might respond to those questions now. .02.
posted by pinkacademic at 10:15 AM on August 18, 2017
pro-Trump: turn and address your baby: "Baby, your grandpa wants to grab you by the pussy!" Or, "Your grandma thinks people who drive cars into people and kill them are fine people."
pro-white: "Baby, grandpa hates Jesus because Jesus isn't white." Or, "Baby, grandpa is unable to discern between a Spaniard, an Irishman, a German, a Swede, a Greek, and a Russian; he has a feeble notion of skin tone." Or, "Damn, you're getting lazy! Hating people for their skin color is so easy and so lazy! Let's think of more fun reasons to hate people. There's a guy at my work who ...."
colorblind: "Baby, grandpa was born on third base, scored on a routine grounder, and thinks he hit a home run."
uncomfortable with LGBTQ: "Baby, grandpa doesn't believe Americans should be free - free to choose how to live their lives without others telling them what to believe."
anti-immigration: "Baby, grandpa wouldn't let you be an American if he were in charge, and he probably wouldn't be allowed, either, based on Trumps recent proposal."
If they call themselves Christian: "Please don't be un-Christian." "That's an un-Christian sentiment."
posted by at at 11:21 AM on August 18, 2017
pro-white: "Baby, grandpa hates Jesus because Jesus isn't white." Or, "Baby, grandpa is unable to discern between a Spaniard, an Irishman, a German, a Swede, a Greek, and a Russian; he has a feeble notion of skin tone." Or, "Damn, you're getting lazy! Hating people for their skin color is so easy and so lazy! Let's think of more fun reasons to hate people. There's a guy at my work who ...."
colorblind: "Baby, grandpa was born on third base, scored on a routine grounder, and thinks he hit a home run."
uncomfortable with LGBTQ: "Baby, grandpa doesn't believe Americans should be free - free to choose how to live their lives without others telling them what to believe."
anti-immigration: "Baby, grandpa wouldn't let you be an American if he were in charge, and he probably wouldn't be allowed, either, based on Trumps recent proposal."
If they call themselves Christian: "Please don't be un-Christian." "That's an un-Christian sentiment."
posted by at at 11:21 AM on August 18, 2017
And they are still our family, and my husband and I do not want to completely shut them out of our lives.
Why not? Because what a lot of us feel is that you have a moral obligation to. That's what "silence is complicity" means. You can hurt Nazi grandma by preventing her from having access to her grandkids, and you have a moral obligation to do so. I would argue that you have a moral obligation to your kids to keep them away as well.
posted by Violet Hour at 11:28 AM on August 18, 2017
Why not? Because what a lot of us feel is that you have a moral obligation to. That's what "silence is complicity" means. You can hurt Nazi grandma by preventing her from having access to her grandkids, and you have a moral obligation to do so. I would argue that you have a moral obligation to your kids to keep them away as well.
posted by Violet Hour at 11:28 AM on August 18, 2017
As you can see, you're not wrong that many people feel a good ally is obligated to cut out racist/misogynist/homophobic people from their lives. And to be honest, I mostly feel this way as well. But I am also someone who gets weepy for a month when I have to miss Thanksgiving. Cutting off my family would absolutely gut me in ways that would require intensive therapy for probably like the entire rest of my life. So I don't ever want to be blithe in telling someone to do that.
It may be true that cutting them out would be a consequence they respond to; however, it will also have consequences for you and your husband and your child, and as a parent and spouse y'all do have to actually enumerate and weigh those.
I do think you have an obligation not to expose your child to unchallenged hatefulness. I do think you have an obligation not to remain silently complicit. But the key word there is "silently." If you're going to continue to see these people you, and especially your husband, have the obligation to push them on every. evil. thing. And here's the thing, is that that will suck, and be very hard, and ultimately you may only have the bandwidth to cut them out. Or alternately, they will not tolerate your consistent opposition, and may cut YOU out.
You say you know you will "not actively fight" them, though. And honey, gently, that is not actually an option here. It is the immoral choice and it will corrode you from the inside, and taint the good lessons you are hoping to give your kid with an irrevocable hypocrisy.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:17 PM on August 18, 2017
It may be true that cutting them out would be a consequence they respond to; however, it will also have consequences for you and your husband and your child, and as a parent and spouse y'all do have to actually enumerate and weigh those.
I do think you have an obligation not to expose your child to unchallenged hatefulness. I do think you have an obligation not to remain silently complicit. But the key word there is "silently." If you're going to continue to see these people you, and especially your husband, have the obligation to push them on every. evil. thing. And here's the thing, is that that will suck, and be very hard, and ultimately you may only have the bandwidth to cut them out. Or alternately, they will not tolerate your consistent opposition, and may cut YOU out.
You say you know you will "not actively fight" them, though. And honey, gently, that is not actually an option here. It is the immoral choice and it will corrode you from the inside, and taint the good lessons you are hoping to give your kid with an irrevocable hypocrisy.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:17 PM on August 18, 2017
Follow your parenting instincts, and protect your son from danger. Corrosive hatred will hurt him in the long run, that's not in question, is it?
You already know what to do. We approve. Do what's right for your child.
posted by dbiedny at 1:10 PM on August 18, 2017
You already know what to do. We approve. Do what's right for your child.
posted by dbiedny at 1:10 PM on August 18, 2017
I think at baseline you need to accept that you're playing by different rules than they are. You're very concerned about preventing breaches of etiquette and you want to put family first, and have everyone at least pretend to get along. They're using this desire against you to breach justice and press their hateful views despite already being well aware that it makes you uncomfortable and that you don't want this around your kid.
If you tell them to stop, they've set it up so that you're the one who is being rude. They feel entitled, they feel that they are right, and they want to indoctrinate you, your husband, and your kid - they're fine with making you (and anyone else) uncomfortable for disagreeing.
Every time your kid interacts with them and you let this shit slide, what your kid is learning is that he can't stand up to this, he can't do anything, that mommy and daddy let this go, that fighting bigotry is an area where he can just talk the talk when that's convenient without ever walking the walk if he doesn't feel like it.
I suggest taking decisive action now before he comes to you crying because he repeated something at school that he heard at Thanksgiving, or because he fell in love with someone that his grandparents don't approve of.
If you want to stay in touch, you need to set hard limits and keep them, and you need to be willing to violate their sense of etiquette to enforce your sense of justice. Don't want this behavior around your kid? Don't let them bring it. Period. Your kid, your rules. They are not entitled to spend time with their grandchild, and they're not entitled to make you uncomfortable. You need to talk to your husband and he needs to take your side, rather than just letting this run unchecked in the name of politeness and family - two concepts they're certainly not prioritizing. You're not in a position where you can choose not to fight - like every kid on the playground dealing with a bully, there are no adults coming to your rescue. You have to be that adult and get your kid to safety.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:59 PM on August 18, 2017
If you tell them to stop, they've set it up so that you're the one who is being rude. They feel entitled, they feel that they are right, and they want to indoctrinate you, your husband, and your kid - they're fine with making you (and anyone else) uncomfortable for disagreeing.
Every time your kid interacts with them and you let this shit slide, what your kid is learning is that he can't stand up to this, he can't do anything, that mommy and daddy let this go, that fighting bigotry is an area where he can just talk the talk when that's convenient without ever walking the walk if he doesn't feel like it.
I suggest taking decisive action now before he comes to you crying because he repeated something at school that he heard at Thanksgiving, or because he fell in love with someone that his grandparents don't approve of.
If you want to stay in touch, you need to set hard limits and keep them, and you need to be willing to violate their sense of etiquette to enforce your sense of justice. Don't want this behavior around your kid? Don't let them bring it. Period. Your kid, your rules. They are not entitled to spend time with their grandchild, and they're not entitled to make you uncomfortable. You need to talk to your husband and he needs to take your side, rather than just letting this run unchecked in the name of politeness and family - two concepts they're certainly not prioritizing. You're not in a position where you can choose not to fight - like every kid on the playground dealing with a bully, there are no adults coming to your rescue. You have to be that adult and get your kid to safety.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:59 PM on August 18, 2017
A good ally does not cut communication. That is a lazy cop-out protecting your comfort at the expense of marginalized people.
Is it frustrating, hurtful, exhausting, and shitty, to have these arguments with your relatives? Sure.
Is your frustration even a shadow of the bone deep terror and grief your IBPoC and queer and Muslim friends feel when the Nazis walk in and shoot us to fucking death?
A good ally ACTS in solidarity with the constant goal of lessening the net amount of racism in the world. An ally must be active or they are not being an ally.
White comfort is a privelege. It is certainly not the goal of an ally.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 2:46 PM on August 18, 2017
Is it frustrating, hurtful, exhausting, and shitty, to have these arguments with your relatives? Sure.
Is your frustration even a shadow of the bone deep terror and grief your IBPoC and queer and Muslim friends feel when the Nazis walk in and shoot us to fucking death?
A good ally ACTS in solidarity with the constant goal of lessening the net amount of racism in the world. An ally must be active or they are not being an ally.
White comfort is a privelege. It is certainly not the goal of an ally.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 2:46 PM on August 18, 2017
I sympathize with your situation very much. I think maybe an element you are missing here is that, whiile it may be possible to have a surface relationship with appropriate boundaries, you will probably never have the deeply connected loving relationship that you might have envisioned your children having with grandparents. I think those relationships can only come from at least some shared values (particularly when the values are, well, justice and equality) and if your in-laws aren't going to change, well, it probably isn't going to happen because of the amount of boundary-placing you'll have to do. And at some point, the question becomes "is it actually worth keeping a surface relationship for Appearances when I know it will not go deeper" and only your family can really say that.
For other reasons, I am on low contact with much of my family, and while the particular reasons make me sad -- I can't lie that it's extremely freeing to enjoy holidays without having to wonder when the next shitty racist comments are coming. For me, it's been easier to let go of the longing for a deep connection that's just not there.
Also FWIW, do consider whether you're just kicking the problem down to your children. I think it's theoretically possible to set strong boundaries and have some kind of relationship, but if you feel that that's just going to mean your teenage and adult children become appalled to realize that yep, Grandma is racist and then struggle with guilt because she's also a person they grew up loving and now THEY have to decide whether to limit contact, that may change your decision now. (I guess, in other words, if you think your in laws are not very good people.. do you want to set your children up to wrestle with that? Serious question, because I honestly think even with many conversations, it's hard for kids to understand "good person with some horrible beliefs".)
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:28 PM on August 18, 2017
For other reasons, I am on low contact with much of my family, and while the particular reasons make me sad -- I can't lie that it's extremely freeing to enjoy holidays without having to wonder when the next shitty racist comments are coming. For me, it's been easier to let go of the longing for a deep connection that's just not there.
Also FWIW, do consider whether you're just kicking the problem down to your children. I think it's theoretically possible to set strong boundaries and have some kind of relationship, but if you feel that that's just going to mean your teenage and adult children become appalled to realize that yep, Grandma is racist and then struggle with guilt because she's also a person they grew up loving and now THEY have to decide whether to limit contact, that may change your decision now. (I guess, in other words, if you think your in laws are not very good people.. do you want to set your children up to wrestle with that? Serious question, because I honestly think even with many conversations, it's hard for kids to understand "good person with some horrible beliefs".)
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:28 PM on August 18, 2017
I don't have a kid, but I do have family members who very freely espouse racist views. My mother almost didn't marry my father because of how terrible that side of the family is. (Thankfully, my dad was put in boarding school at age 5 and was not especially exposed to the more virulent aspects of his birth family's behaviors.) I do recall my parents saying over and over at family gatherings, "That's not acceptable." and then explaining to me afterwards, in age-appropriate language, that my aunt was being a bitch. As an adult, I don't have much of a relationship with the racist side of my family, and honestly that's ok with me. I respect my parents for standing up for their beliefs, for modeling how to deal with bigotry. Your son may feel the same way in 30 years.
posted by basalganglia at 5:43 PM on August 18, 2017
posted by basalganglia at 5:43 PM on August 18, 2017
It seems a lot of us have bigoted relatives. If yours are like my relatives (which it sounds like they are), they often say this stuff to get a rise out of you as they know you don't share those views. It's best to ignore/downplay it while you're there, which will lead to the person getting bored and changing the subject. Calmly stating "that's not nice" like suggested above might work, they want you to yell and scream as this amuses them.
If necessary, tell the kid what relative is saying is not nice or right afterward and they'll likely figure out soon enough relative is being an asshole. Since you don't seem to see these relatives that much, it should be OK.
Everyone talks about diversity, but only in context of skin color and/or ethnicity, which I think is limiting. In a way, it's good your child gets to be exposed to those with a different point of view, especially if it's different from what he gets at home. This will help him deal with those with different worldviews later on at school and in the workplace, where you can be thrown together with lots of different people. Exposure to crazy old people also has its benefits in the future.
posted by greatalleycat at 8:50 PM on August 18, 2017
If necessary, tell the kid what relative is saying is not nice or right afterward and they'll likely figure out soon enough relative is being an asshole. Since you don't seem to see these relatives that much, it should be OK.
Everyone talks about diversity, but only in context of skin color and/or ethnicity, which I think is limiting. In a way, it's good your child gets to be exposed to those with a different point of view, especially if it's different from what he gets at home. This will help him deal with those with different worldviews later on at school and in the workplace, where you can be thrown together with lots of different people. Exposure to crazy old people also has its benefits in the future.
posted by greatalleycat at 8:50 PM on August 18, 2017
They're not just intolerant and racist -- they're taunting you with it. If you're in a large family group, it might only give them pleasure if you say more about your values. They probably already have their retorts ready, and will keep congratulating themselves on how superior they are. Keeping quiet is your best option at certain times -- like when speaking up will make things more fun for them.
I agree that you should speak your mind with one or two of these relatives at a time when you're on their turf. They know what you think about race and social issues. The most effective thing would be, "You already know that I strongly disagree with you on that. When you try do draw me into a debate, I feel uncomfortable because I feel like I'm your dartboard." Or whatever else you want to say, in the format, When you ______, I feel ______, or it has _____effect on me or it makes it hard for me to enjoy your company.
If you are going to draw a boundary, it should be for you, not them. "If you talk about _____, I will leave the room/end the phone call/cut the visit short." You can't make them act in a certain way, but you can can control how you respond.
In your own home, you can pre-emptively say that you'd like to completely avoid contentious topics, or you can wait till they make a comment and then say it. It is acceptable, if they persist, to just shut everything down and go to another part of the house. And to say they will not be invited again if they can't keep things neutral.
Most grandparents really want to see their grandchildren. If that's the case with your in-laws, you have a good deal of power. As for setting an example for your child, it's okay to say, when relatives are present, "We don't agree with Grandma and Grandpa. We believe that people of different colors/from different countries/rich or poor are equal."Just make sure to stay calm. And of course you'll be teaching them about equality and tolerance regularly within your own family. Your child will learn that you can love someone and think they're terribly wrong about many things.
posted by wryly at 1:21 PM on August 19, 2017
I agree that you should speak your mind with one or two of these relatives at a time when you're on their turf. They know what you think about race and social issues. The most effective thing would be, "You already know that I strongly disagree with you on that. When you try do draw me into a debate, I feel uncomfortable because I feel like I'm your dartboard." Or whatever else you want to say, in the format, When you ______, I feel ______, or it has _____effect on me or it makes it hard for me to enjoy your company.
If you are going to draw a boundary, it should be for you, not them. "If you talk about _____, I will leave the room/end the phone call/cut the visit short." You can't make them act in a certain way, but you can can control how you respond.
In your own home, you can pre-emptively say that you'd like to completely avoid contentious topics, or you can wait till they make a comment and then say it. It is acceptable, if they persist, to just shut everything down and go to another part of the house. And to say they will not be invited again if they can't keep things neutral.
Most grandparents really want to see their grandchildren. If that's the case with your in-laws, you have a good deal of power. As for setting an example for your child, it's okay to say, when relatives are present, "We don't agree with Grandma and Grandpa. We believe that people of different colors/from different countries/rich or poor are equal."Just make sure to stay calm. And of course you'll be teaching them about equality and tolerance regularly within your own family. Your child will learn that you can love someone and think they're terribly wrong about many things.
posted by wryly at 1:21 PM on August 19, 2017
Since your husband did not espouse the views of his family, I suppose it means that they were smart enough to raise him or at least allow him to think on his own.
That's what you should aim at while raising your kid, rather than hope that he will turn out to be the feminist, antiracist adult that you want him to be. What would happen if he grows into a Conservative man? Will you love him less? Or think that you've failed as a parent?
Teach him the critical skills he needs to understand the world, and the compassionate kills he needs to relate to his fellow human beings, then let him reach his own conclusions. That's the way I see it.
posted by Kwadeng at 2:08 PM on August 20, 2017
That's what you should aim at while raising your kid, rather than hope that he will turn out to be the feminist, antiracist adult that you want him to be. What would happen if he grows into a Conservative man? Will you love him less? Or think that you've failed as a parent?
Teach him the critical skills he needs to understand the world, and the compassionate kills he needs to relate to his fellow human beings, then let him reach his own conclusions. That's the way I see it.
posted by Kwadeng at 2:08 PM on August 20, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
Then, there's the relatives. If he has the background of a daily life that rejects what they're saying, their comments carry very, very little weight. And that might take some of the pressure off those moments too. And having that pressure off frees you to act with less emotion. I think the way you are responding is great. You are clearly stating your position and disengaging when they dig in. But do say something. It models for your child how to act as an anti-racist for himself. "That has never been my experience." "We don't use that kind of language/make those kinds of comments in our family and in our home. I need you to stop." Keep speaking out on social media about what you do believe.
You're doing important work, raising an ally, and you are doing so in a thoughtful and loving way. Hang in there.
posted by goggie at 6:53 AM on August 18, 2017