Should we move to Australia?
April 12, 2017 8:24 PM Subscribe
Currently, my wife, my five-year-old son, and I live in Champaign, Illinois, where I am an assistant professor and my wife is an adjunct professor at the University of Illinois. I have an offer to begin working as an assistant professor at the University of Western Australia in Perth. We are really not sure whether to go or to stay. Help us think it through.
First, the locations. We both visited Perth in March, when I gave my job talk. We find both the city and the geography (including the beaches and the climate) of Perth to be preferable to Champaign. (And I say that despite the fact that I grew up in Illinois and really like the endless cornfields.)
Second, our families. My parents live in Illinois: a three hour drive away. My wife's parents live in Missouri (which is contiguous with Illinois for those who don't know the Midwest): a seven hour drive away. We love our parents and would, all else equal, like to be near them, especially as they get older. In addition, my dad is an alumnus of the University of Illinois, and I think he takes some special pride in the fact that I am a professor at his alma mater.
Third, the money. My wife is only employed part-time at the University of Illinois. But she has also started working as a music director at a local Methodist church. Altogether, we'll make about $100,000 this year. The university will take about $7,000 to put in a retirement fund and will match it with its own $7,000. We will pay something like $15,000 in taxes (some to Illinois and some to the federal government). By contrast, the University of Western Australia has offered me a starting salary of $114,000 on which we would expect to pay about $33,000 in tax (including the Medicare levy). The university would contribute about $20,000 per year to retirement over and above my salary. Raises (including cost of living adjustments) have been sporadic at Illinois, owing to the state's budget crisis. However, I go up for tenure next year, and if I get it, I will get a $7,000 pay raise. If I don't get it, then I will quite possibly be out of academia, since the job market continues to be incredibly bad. As I understand things, at UWA I can expect to have regular pay raises of about $3,500 per year for the next decade or so, assuming I remain productive. Cost of living is greater in Perth than it is in Champaign, especially with respect to housing. And the exchange rate between U.S. and Australian dollars is currently about 4 to 3. So, it looks like we will take a (smallish?) hit to our real income until my wife also finds remunerative work in Australia. If we were to move, though, her plan would be to compose full time, at least in the short term.
Fourth, the jobs. My department has been ... troubled ... for basically the entire time I've been here (six years). We have steadily bled out senior faculty working on the metaphysics and epistemology (broadly construed) side of the department, and the only person left with whom I have regular professional discussions is leaving at the end of the semester. We made a solid junior hire close-ish (?) to my research area this year, and he will start in the fall. But the person I really wanted to hire was *firmly* rejected by the rest of the department, despite the fact that he already has a better CV than anyone in our department, was excited to work with me, and would have fit in really well. Whether rationally or not, I took the decision personally. Nobody else had anything to gain professionally by hiring any of the other candidates, and nobody seemed to care at all that I *did* have something to gain. The hiring decision also makes me very nervous about my upcoming tenure case. The department in Australia is objectively slightly weaker than the department at Illinois. But the department culture -- insofar as I could get a sense for this -- seems better. And there is at least one really outstanding young philosopher at UWA that I would be happy to collaborate with. On the other hand, I have some productive existing connections with the psychology department here at Illinois. If we move, I'll need to spend some effort making new inter-disciplinary connections. My wife has mostly had professional frustration at Illinois. She is currently employed year to year at one course per semester, for which she earns just under $15,000 each year. She is worth considerably more than this. And the university seems to keep stringing us along with the hope that maybe, some day, they will finally give her a full-time, permanent position. (There is nominally a very good dual career hiring program here, but my wife's part of the university never seems to have any money. And the ongoing budget nightmare in Illinois makes everything involving money more difficult.) Even so, she does have *something* here, and the head of my department has been making an effort to improve her situation slightly by getting the school of music to regularize her appointment and provide a three-year contract. We're not sure whether moving would be a net benefit to her career or not. It would open up new opportunities for networking and new markets for her work. But it would mean losing some of her existing network -- or at least, it would make it much harder (maybe impossible) for her to take advantage of some connections she has here.
Fifth, the other candidates. Australia has a different approach to hiring than do universities in the U.S. All three of the finalists for the job at UWA had their campus visits at the same time. So, I had the opportunity to meet the other two candidates. They are excellent, both as people and as scholars. And neither has a full-time, permanent, tenure track position, yet. This is not especially surprising given the current abysmal job market for academics. I am extremely fortunate to have a tenure track position already. Do I have a moral obligation to turn down the offer from Australia to make way for someone who does not have a job? Given the state of the market and the fact that if I leave my current job, it is unlikely that the University of Illinois will replace me, I tend to think that I have *some* moral obligation here.
Sixth, politics, society, and the future. As we all know, Donald Trump is the President. Hence, I find myself conflicted. Should we stay and fight? Or should we flee the coming destruction? Part of the calculation here has to do with what kind of society we want to live in. Australia isn't perfect, but it is currently much more sensible than the U.S. Moreover, I wonder what I owe to my son. Education is better (on average, at least) in Australia. There is a sensible healthcare policy. The country is wealthy and safe. I suspect that on those dimensions, my son would be better off growing up in Australia than he would growing up here in the U.S. On the other hand, if we move, he will see very little of his grandparents.
Seventh, adventure and experience. My wife and I have traveled some in our lives, but we have never lived abroad. We think that living abroad would be an adventure and that the experience would be valuable for its own sake. We worry that we are being cowardly by not accepting the job and moving. And we worry that we will never have a chance like this again if we pass it up. (Though, if I do get tenure, there is a good chance that we can spend some or all of my sabbatical year abroad.) However, if we leave, it will be difficult to return to the U.S. in academia. And it will be virtually certain that we will not be able to return to Illinois.
Eighth, the unknown unknowns. What haven't we thought about? Probably a lot! But we don't know what it is that we've missed.
First, the locations. We both visited Perth in March, when I gave my job talk. We find both the city and the geography (including the beaches and the climate) of Perth to be preferable to Champaign. (And I say that despite the fact that I grew up in Illinois and really like the endless cornfields.)
Second, our families. My parents live in Illinois: a three hour drive away. My wife's parents live in Missouri (which is contiguous with Illinois for those who don't know the Midwest): a seven hour drive away. We love our parents and would, all else equal, like to be near them, especially as they get older. In addition, my dad is an alumnus of the University of Illinois, and I think he takes some special pride in the fact that I am a professor at his alma mater.
Third, the money. My wife is only employed part-time at the University of Illinois. But she has also started working as a music director at a local Methodist church. Altogether, we'll make about $100,000 this year. The university will take about $7,000 to put in a retirement fund and will match it with its own $7,000. We will pay something like $15,000 in taxes (some to Illinois and some to the federal government). By contrast, the University of Western Australia has offered me a starting salary of $114,000 on which we would expect to pay about $33,000 in tax (including the Medicare levy). The university would contribute about $20,000 per year to retirement over and above my salary. Raises (including cost of living adjustments) have been sporadic at Illinois, owing to the state's budget crisis. However, I go up for tenure next year, and if I get it, I will get a $7,000 pay raise. If I don't get it, then I will quite possibly be out of academia, since the job market continues to be incredibly bad. As I understand things, at UWA I can expect to have regular pay raises of about $3,500 per year for the next decade or so, assuming I remain productive. Cost of living is greater in Perth than it is in Champaign, especially with respect to housing. And the exchange rate between U.S. and Australian dollars is currently about 4 to 3. So, it looks like we will take a (smallish?) hit to our real income until my wife also finds remunerative work in Australia. If we were to move, though, her plan would be to compose full time, at least in the short term.
Fourth, the jobs. My department has been ... troubled ... for basically the entire time I've been here (six years). We have steadily bled out senior faculty working on the metaphysics and epistemology (broadly construed) side of the department, and the only person left with whom I have regular professional discussions is leaving at the end of the semester. We made a solid junior hire close-ish (?) to my research area this year, and he will start in the fall. But the person I really wanted to hire was *firmly* rejected by the rest of the department, despite the fact that he already has a better CV than anyone in our department, was excited to work with me, and would have fit in really well. Whether rationally or not, I took the decision personally. Nobody else had anything to gain professionally by hiring any of the other candidates, and nobody seemed to care at all that I *did* have something to gain. The hiring decision also makes me very nervous about my upcoming tenure case. The department in Australia is objectively slightly weaker than the department at Illinois. But the department culture -- insofar as I could get a sense for this -- seems better. And there is at least one really outstanding young philosopher at UWA that I would be happy to collaborate with. On the other hand, I have some productive existing connections with the psychology department here at Illinois. If we move, I'll need to spend some effort making new inter-disciplinary connections. My wife has mostly had professional frustration at Illinois. She is currently employed year to year at one course per semester, for which she earns just under $15,000 each year. She is worth considerably more than this. And the university seems to keep stringing us along with the hope that maybe, some day, they will finally give her a full-time, permanent position. (There is nominally a very good dual career hiring program here, but my wife's part of the university never seems to have any money. And the ongoing budget nightmare in Illinois makes everything involving money more difficult.) Even so, she does have *something* here, and the head of my department has been making an effort to improve her situation slightly by getting the school of music to regularize her appointment and provide a three-year contract. We're not sure whether moving would be a net benefit to her career or not. It would open up new opportunities for networking and new markets for her work. But it would mean losing some of her existing network -- or at least, it would make it much harder (maybe impossible) for her to take advantage of some connections she has here.
Fifth, the other candidates. Australia has a different approach to hiring than do universities in the U.S. All three of the finalists for the job at UWA had their campus visits at the same time. So, I had the opportunity to meet the other two candidates. They are excellent, both as people and as scholars. And neither has a full-time, permanent, tenure track position, yet. This is not especially surprising given the current abysmal job market for academics. I am extremely fortunate to have a tenure track position already. Do I have a moral obligation to turn down the offer from Australia to make way for someone who does not have a job? Given the state of the market and the fact that if I leave my current job, it is unlikely that the University of Illinois will replace me, I tend to think that I have *some* moral obligation here.
Sixth, politics, society, and the future. As we all know, Donald Trump is the President. Hence, I find myself conflicted. Should we stay and fight? Or should we flee the coming destruction? Part of the calculation here has to do with what kind of society we want to live in. Australia isn't perfect, but it is currently much more sensible than the U.S. Moreover, I wonder what I owe to my son. Education is better (on average, at least) in Australia. There is a sensible healthcare policy. The country is wealthy and safe. I suspect that on those dimensions, my son would be better off growing up in Australia than he would growing up here in the U.S. On the other hand, if we move, he will see very little of his grandparents.
Seventh, adventure and experience. My wife and I have traveled some in our lives, but we have never lived abroad. We think that living abroad would be an adventure and that the experience would be valuable for its own sake. We worry that we are being cowardly by not accepting the job and moving. And we worry that we will never have a chance like this again if we pass it up. (Though, if I do get tenure, there is a good chance that we can spend some or all of my sabbatical year abroad.) However, if we leave, it will be difficult to return to the U.S. in academia. And it will be virtually certain that we will not be able to return to Illinois.
Eighth, the unknown unknowns. What haven't we thought about? Probably a lot! But we don't know what it is that we've missed.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's request -- taz
. I am extremely fortunate to have a tenure track position already. Do I have a moral obligation to turn down the offer from Australia to make way for someone who does not have a job?
No. You do not have such an obligation.
I would take the job in Australia.
The budget situation in Illinois is not likely to get better soon. I imagine that UIUC is more insulated than other Illinois higher ed institutions, but I'm sure it's going to feel the pinch too.
And...if you don't feel supported and valued by your department, and your values, departmentally, don't match your colleagues'...that's setting yourself up for frustration down the line.
The family thing is hard. I moved to Alaska for a university job, and I don't get to see my family much. On the other hand, the time change won't be as bad as if you moved to Europe, you'll just have to switch AM and PM. (I think. My husband had a collaborator in Perth when we were in PA and I think they were exactly 12 hours off.)
One concern is what the tenure and promotion process is like at UWA. And, will your wife be allowed to work, under the constraint of whatever her visa is?
I think, if you get tenure at UWA, it would be possible to get a job in US academia again. Folks with experience are more desirable (modulo money) than folks without, or at least that has been my experience on hiring committees. And you have a no-brained of a cover letter: you want to return to the US. (I grant you, you won't get hired at the U if I again.)
When I changed jobs (I had tenure at another school), I took a leave of absence for a year from the old job, with the understanding that I could come back to my job if I hated it. (I didn't). I had a collleague here who did the same thing --- he took a leave of absence and went and did a new job for a year, only he came back! Now, we both had tenure. But you don't know if it's an option until you ask!!
But in summary: it sounds awesome to me.
posted by leahwrenn at 8:45 PM on April 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
No. You do not have such an obligation.
I would take the job in Australia.
The budget situation in Illinois is not likely to get better soon. I imagine that UIUC is more insulated than other Illinois higher ed institutions, but I'm sure it's going to feel the pinch too.
And...if you don't feel supported and valued by your department, and your values, departmentally, don't match your colleagues'...that's setting yourself up for frustration down the line.
The family thing is hard. I moved to Alaska for a university job, and I don't get to see my family much. On the other hand, the time change won't be as bad as if you moved to Europe, you'll just have to switch AM and PM. (I think. My husband had a collaborator in Perth when we were in PA and I think they were exactly 12 hours off.)
One concern is what the tenure and promotion process is like at UWA. And, will your wife be allowed to work, under the constraint of whatever her visa is?
I think, if you get tenure at UWA, it would be possible to get a job in US academia again. Folks with experience are more desirable (modulo money) than folks without, or at least that has been my experience on hiring committees. And you have a no-brained of a cover letter: you want to return to the US. (I grant you, you won't get hired at the U if I again.)
When I changed jobs (I had tenure at another school), I took a leave of absence for a year from the old job, with the understanding that I could come back to my job if I hated it. (I didn't). I had a collleague here who did the same thing --- he took a leave of absence and went and did a new job for a year, only he came back! Now, we both had tenure. But you don't know if it's an option until you ask!!
But in summary: it sounds awesome to me.
posted by leahwrenn at 8:45 PM on April 12, 2017 [7 favorites]
Please obscure these details!!!!
The funding situation in Illinois is horrible and you are right for considering leaving.
If I were you, I'd go to Perth but work very hard to keep up with US conferences so that you can potentially come back if it doesn't work for you.
posted by k8t at 8:51 PM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
The funding situation in Illinois is horrible and you are right for considering leaving.
If I were you, I'd go to Perth but work very hard to keep up with US conferences so that you can potentially come back if it doesn't work for you.
posted by k8t at 8:51 PM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think it's a no-brainer to take the Australia job except for question of your parents. Only you and your wife can truly answer this question but I would encourage you to do two things. One: talk to your parents. They may beg you to stay or insist that you go, but open the dialogue. and Two: commit to finding a place in Perth that is larger so they can come for extended visits. My parents moved us half way around the world as kids and made no effort to keep us in touch with their families (they visited and kept in touch but did not bring us). We resent them for this, for sure. I did not see my older siblings or cousins from age 13 until I was old enough to buy my own plane ticket to visit them. I never say any of my grandparents again. But lots of other ex-pats would go home for the summer or have relatives out to stay for a month or more and their families are as close as can be. It can definitely be done, especially in this day and age of skype and texting. I text my nieces and nephews all the time and we skype weekly.
posted by fshgrl at 8:54 PM on April 12, 2017
posted by fshgrl at 8:54 PM on April 12, 2017
Now is a great time to leave the USA!
posted by oceanjesse at 9:04 PM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oceanjesse at 9:04 PM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
I went to UWA, though in the science/engineering, not philosophy. It's a nice campus and university, though it's probably changed quite a bit since I was there.
Perth is crazy isolated. It costs a fortune to go anywhere, and a lot of people struggle with that. I've known a few academics who've gone to Perth for a good job, who've left pretty soon afterwards because the people they've wanted to live there are just too far away. I also grew up with a contingent of friends whose parents moved to Perth for a short term contract and never left!
It's a supremely pleasant city to live in. UWA is in the busiest, most expensive bit, but it's a very laid back, easy going city. The locals can be cliquey, but there are a lot of immigrants who've come in for the mining, and society often divides along native/non-native lines (native to Perth that is). The beaches are excellent, as is the wine, and the weather is good, though hot. Very hot.
The economy isn't great in WA at the moment, as the mining boom ended a couple of years ago. You would be federally funded, but the current federal government isn't particularly pro public spending, so I'm somewhat sceptical of the $3,500 increase per year figure they're suggesting. We just spent 2.5 years with no pay increase fighting to get 6% over 3 years, and other federal government agencies are striking over pay disputes right now.
Also, and this may be me showing the bias I grew up with, surrounded by the children of mining professionals, but science and maths are valued much higher in Perth than social sciences. Philosophy is considered a bit frivolous, though people in Perth would expect it to be studied at UWA, as it's the oldest more traditional university.
By Australian standards, housing is quite cheap in Perth, and due to the reduction in population as mining employment dropped, it's getting cheaper. You'd be able to buy something quite nice on just your budget, I would think, and have your pick of rentals. Not super close to the University though, as it is the most expensive part of town, but the public transport to UWA is pretty good.
I know this all sounds quite negative, but if someone offered me a good job in Perth, I'd probably take it. It's a really nice place to live. But go in with your eyes open.
I have a contact in the Perth music world, which is a small but good one, Memail me, and I'll put you in touch.
posted by kjs4 at 9:06 PM on April 12, 2017
Perth is crazy isolated. It costs a fortune to go anywhere, and a lot of people struggle with that. I've known a few academics who've gone to Perth for a good job, who've left pretty soon afterwards because the people they've wanted to live there are just too far away. I also grew up with a contingent of friends whose parents moved to Perth for a short term contract and never left!
It's a supremely pleasant city to live in. UWA is in the busiest, most expensive bit, but it's a very laid back, easy going city. The locals can be cliquey, but there are a lot of immigrants who've come in for the mining, and society often divides along native/non-native lines (native to Perth that is). The beaches are excellent, as is the wine, and the weather is good, though hot. Very hot.
The economy isn't great in WA at the moment, as the mining boom ended a couple of years ago. You would be federally funded, but the current federal government isn't particularly pro public spending, so I'm somewhat sceptical of the $3,500 increase per year figure they're suggesting. We just spent 2.5 years with no pay increase fighting to get 6% over 3 years, and other federal government agencies are striking over pay disputes right now.
Also, and this may be me showing the bias I grew up with, surrounded by the children of mining professionals, but science and maths are valued much higher in Perth than social sciences. Philosophy is considered a bit frivolous, though people in Perth would expect it to be studied at UWA, as it's the oldest more traditional university.
By Australian standards, housing is quite cheap in Perth, and due to the reduction in population as mining employment dropped, it's getting cheaper. You'd be able to buy something quite nice on just your budget, I would think, and have your pick of rentals. Not super close to the University though, as it is the most expensive part of town, but the public transport to UWA is pretty good.
I know this all sounds quite negative, but if someone offered me a good job in Perth, I'd probably take it. It's a really nice place to live. But go in with your eyes open.
I have a contact in the Perth music world, which is a small but good one, Memail me, and I'll put you in touch.
posted by kjs4 at 9:06 PM on April 12, 2017
I can give you my perspective, as an academic librarian who left Michigan a decade ago to work in California (both my parents and my husband's parents are in MI) but we do not have any kids.
I was so on the fence about moving, but when I interrogated myself seriously I found I was dreaming of being there. Since I did, it's been mostly great, professionally and personally. So my immediate thought is, if your inner voice is telling you to go, and your wife's inner voice says so too, that is what you should do.
My suggestions for things to think through more:
- can the Australian Univ give your wife a job or a visa so she can work? Trailing spouse? Not sure if they do that. But if she could have a job, this could change your math a lot.
- Leaving Australia is EXPENSIVE. I know one Ozzie who married a male American art school professor. They moved back to Australia in 2006 and had 2 kids; she has a full time job and he is a professor with tenure there. They came back to the US for the first time in late 2016/early 2017 (christmas/new years), because his father was ailing, and it was a stretch-- they didn't think they would be able to come back for another 5 years. If you must be able to come back to see your parents frequently, you must be sure you get paid enough-- price out flights, and maybe negotiate for plane fare?
- Culture shock of moving to another country, with your wife as possibly a stay-at-home mom who composes on the side. Will she be able to find friends, a social circle? Will she be willing to?-- I suck at reaching out to strangers so I am not trying to judge, just being honest. If I didn't have the job here, and my husband's gregariousness, I would have no friends. But maybe your school or town has an expats group, or some hobby you can join, to combat this. Are you both OK with being left out when people reference favorite TV shows/TV stations/major historical events of the country/major artists/etc, or shy with asking for explanations? This doesn't bother me and I love asking for explanations, but some folks are reticent about it.
posted by holyrood at 9:09 PM on April 12, 2017
I was so on the fence about moving, but when I interrogated myself seriously I found I was dreaming of being there. Since I did, it's been mostly great, professionally and personally. So my immediate thought is, if your inner voice is telling you to go, and your wife's inner voice says so too, that is what you should do.
My suggestions for things to think through more:
- can the Australian Univ give your wife a job or a visa so she can work? Trailing spouse? Not sure if they do that. But if she could have a job, this could change your math a lot.
- Leaving Australia is EXPENSIVE. I know one Ozzie who married a male American art school professor. They moved back to Australia in 2006 and had 2 kids; she has a full time job and he is a professor with tenure there. They came back to the US for the first time in late 2016/early 2017 (christmas/new years), because his father was ailing, and it was a stretch-- they didn't think they would be able to come back for another 5 years. If you must be able to come back to see your parents frequently, you must be sure you get paid enough-- price out flights, and maybe negotiate for plane fare?
- Culture shock of moving to another country, with your wife as possibly a stay-at-home mom who composes on the side. Will she be able to find friends, a social circle? Will she be willing to?-- I suck at reaching out to strangers so I am not trying to judge, just being honest. If I didn't have the job here, and my husband's gregariousness, I would have no friends. But maybe your school or town has an expats group, or some hobby you can join, to combat this. Are you both OK with being left out when people reference favorite TV shows/TV stations/major historical events of the country/major artists/etc, or shy with asking for explanations? This doesn't bother me and I love asking for explanations, but some folks are reticent about it.
posted by holyrood at 9:09 PM on April 12, 2017
I work for UWA peripatetically and I know they take pride in hiring international professors. And ya know, the foreign professors stay here forging really great community connections for many years. They love it here and they keep up international conferences and frequent travel. It's also a beautiful university and makes a vibrant contribution for our International Arts Festival and other cultural events here. I love working on campus when I'm required to do so.
I'm in an Australian/USA relationship too, and my partner loves it here and would give his eye teeth for a work opportunity in his field - he works remote on USA time zone hours. You mention Trump and I think it's a Thing for us in choosing Perth as our home in favour of the Midwest. We have plenty of rednecks and conservatives here I admit, but with distance from Trump it doesn't feel so egregious on a daily basis. Perth people love Americans and don't conflate you and Trump.
You can fly home for snow and yes, it's a loooong way. But we go for longer periods and enjoy the midwest's delights much more than we lived there. E.g. Beers that don't break the bank. Already my partner's family has visited Perth and there was so much to show them. They loved it and plan to return. Yes, they're a bit sad at the distance between but we chat on FaceTime a lot and they remarked recently that they 'see' us more and it's always so interesting for them now.
I can't address university issues in the USA, but on the things I know I think you should come out here. I'll be ya friend and I'm sure your wife will make great connections in the music departments of various universities. My former colleague in education took a musical director job several years ago in an elite girls school here and it's well paid and international in focus. He loves it.
posted by honey-barbara at 9:14 PM on April 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm in an Australian/USA relationship too, and my partner loves it here and would give his eye teeth for a work opportunity in his field - he works remote on USA time zone hours. You mention Trump and I think it's a Thing for us in choosing Perth as our home in favour of the Midwest. We have plenty of rednecks and conservatives here I admit, but with distance from Trump it doesn't feel so egregious on a daily basis. Perth people love Americans and don't conflate you and Trump.
You can fly home for snow and yes, it's a loooong way. But we go for longer periods and enjoy the midwest's delights much more than we lived there. E.g. Beers that don't break the bank. Already my partner's family has visited Perth and there was so much to show them. They loved it and plan to return. Yes, they're a bit sad at the distance between but we chat on FaceTime a lot and they remarked recently that they 'see' us more and it's always so interesting for them now.
I can't address university issues in the USA, but on the things I know I think you should come out here. I'll be ya friend and I'm sure your wife will make great connections in the music departments of various universities. My former colleague in education took a musical director job several years ago in an elite girls school here and it's well paid and international in focus. He loves it.
posted by honey-barbara at 9:14 PM on April 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also: Perth is home to WAAPA - Australia's prestigious performing arts academy (Jackman, Ledger etc) and why not check out work opportunities there for your wife? A friend of mine is James Ledger, an internationally experienced and in demand composer, alumni of UWA and WAAPA. I'm sure he could point your wife in some helpful directions.
posted by honey-barbara at 9:22 PM on April 12, 2017
posted by honey-barbara at 9:22 PM on April 12, 2017
As an American expat working in academia in Australia (currently in Adelaide, soon moving to Melbourne) this all speaks close to my heart. Indeed, I recently went on the job market and had interviews in both the US and Australia, so I was very recently wrestling with many of the same issues you are. It's a hard decision. As you can see from the fact that I chose to go to Melbourne, we opted to be in Australia.
Obviously everyone makes their own decision, but I'll tell you the factors that we considered the most.
In the "Move to Australia" column:
1) The overall sanity of the society. Australia's political situation is, while not ideal, far far better than in the US. This was the thing that ended up mattering the most. Even aside from Trump, the fundamentals are there in Australia in a way that makes me not worried that we would elect a Trump (Turnbull is not great from a left perspective, but he is far far far better than Trump). Whereas in the US, even if you survive Trump, the discourse is so vile, people so distrust everyone, the powerful have so much freedom to screw everyone over, and society is so susceptible to a demagogue, I wouldn't be surprised if another one comes along. In Australia, voting rights are strong and are preserved: everyone votes, and it's a system where your vote matters - it's not first-past-the-post. People recognise the importance of strong government and strong civic society. There are no guns; you don't have to worry about random school shootings or any idiots coming and shooting you up in public. There is universal healthcare. University costs are far lower. It is fucking amazing and when push came to shove, I couldn't give these things up. The amount of stress I do not have because I know that if I were to get a brain tumour, my family would not go bankrupt (and even if they did, there would be a decent safety net)... it's hard to quantify what a difference in quality of life that makes, but for me at least, it is huge. And I didn't recognise how huge it was until I came here and all these invisible weights lifted off my back.
2) It is really lovely. I've only visited Perth a couple of times, but it's a beautiful city, people are really laid-back, and there is both a lot of the culture you can get from being in a world-class city but also it's not at all far from tremendous natural beauty. Hell, that's true for most of the main Australian cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth). They top many "best places to live in the world" lists for a reason.
3) Money actually works out pretty well. Your wife will probably have an easier time finding some sort of job because the economy is pretty good. And even if she doesn't, as you say, the pay raises are more guaranteed, and you don't have to pay for some of the things that you need to in the US as much (health insurance is far far lower, daycare is partially subsidised (means-tested), etc). We're doing well financially while I think we'd be struggling more in most places in the US that would have an equivalently good university.
4) Academia is nicer. It's more isolated (see below) but in general there is better work-life balance. Graduate students are funded federally (which is a double-edged sword, because you're pressured to take more than you'd like or have time for, but it also means that you aren't dependent on having grants in order to have some). The world is small so eventually you'll know everyone in the field that matters in Australia which makes conferences far more pleasant - it's like running into a bunch of your old friends every year.
The biggest downsides are:
1) Distance from family. This was the issue that caused me the most agony, because in addition to parents who I'm close to and love, I also have several siblings who I miss dearly. I don't see as much of my nieces and nephews as I would like. However, one thing that made a difference is that I realised that if the US gets that bad politically / economically, me being here will make it easier for my family to escape. Another thing is that although the distance is far -- it really is, if you're in Perth especially it will be -- it effectively doesn't mean I would see them that much less. Even if we lived in the US, unless we were within a few hours' drive, we'd probably only realistically see them two or maybe three times a year. As it is, we budget within an inch of our lives and have managed to see them on average once a year, maybe once every 1.5 years. It's less, but between that and frequent skyping it's not that much less. The main thing we don't have is the ability to just fly over quickly in case of emergency -- I mean, you could, but you'd be out a lot of money.
2) Isolation. I mean this in terms of intellectual isolation of academia. This is also a thing but it's mitigated a lot if you're in a good department. (One reason I'm moving to Melbourne). In fact, my experience is that a department with a poor culture will grind you down so much that it seriously compromises your mental state and quality of life after a while. I would weight that pretty highly. If you were to come, I would strongly recommend trying to travel to at least one international conference a year if you can - I had to not do so for a few years because of small children, and I've felt the cost. If you can, and if you make a concerted effort to maintain collaborations and form new ones with Australian folks, you can mitigate the isolation somewhat. But you'll feel it. The extent to which it will bother you depends on the person.
As I said, you'll have to figure out how to weigh those factors yourself, but I thought you might find it useful to see how someone who recently had to make a very similar decision -- but who knows Australia well -- ended up weighing them. I'm happy to chat more via MeMail if you'd like... and if you do decide to come, feel free to let me know! I am in cognitive science and have started getting pretty interested in studying how people weight different kinds of evidence or decide to search for other evidence, and if you work in epistemology we might have stuff to talk about. :)
posted by forza at 9:51 PM on April 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Obviously everyone makes their own decision, but I'll tell you the factors that we considered the most.
In the "Move to Australia" column:
1) The overall sanity of the society. Australia's political situation is, while not ideal, far far better than in the US. This was the thing that ended up mattering the most. Even aside from Trump, the fundamentals are there in Australia in a way that makes me not worried that we would elect a Trump (Turnbull is not great from a left perspective, but he is far far far better than Trump). Whereas in the US, even if you survive Trump, the discourse is so vile, people so distrust everyone, the powerful have so much freedom to screw everyone over, and society is so susceptible to a demagogue, I wouldn't be surprised if another one comes along. In Australia, voting rights are strong and are preserved: everyone votes, and it's a system where your vote matters - it's not first-past-the-post. People recognise the importance of strong government and strong civic society. There are no guns; you don't have to worry about random school shootings or any idiots coming and shooting you up in public. There is universal healthcare. University costs are far lower. It is fucking amazing and when push came to shove, I couldn't give these things up. The amount of stress I do not have because I know that if I were to get a brain tumour, my family would not go bankrupt (and even if they did, there would be a decent safety net)... it's hard to quantify what a difference in quality of life that makes, but for me at least, it is huge. And I didn't recognise how huge it was until I came here and all these invisible weights lifted off my back.
2) It is really lovely. I've only visited Perth a couple of times, but it's a beautiful city, people are really laid-back, and there is both a lot of the culture you can get from being in a world-class city but also it's not at all far from tremendous natural beauty. Hell, that's true for most of the main Australian cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth). They top many "best places to live in the world" lists for a reason.
3) Money actually works out pretty well. Your wife will probably have an easier time finding some sort of job because the economy is pretty good. And even if she doesn't, as you say, the pay raises are more guaranteed, and you don't have to pay for some of the things that you need to in the US as much (health insurance is far far lower, daycare is partially subsidised (means-tested), etc). We're doing well financially while I think we'd be struggling more in most places in the US that would have an equivalently good university.
4) Academia is nicer. It's more isolated (see below) but in general there is better work-life balance. Graduate students are funded federally (which is a double-edged sword, because you're pressured to take more than you'd like or have time for, but it also means that you aren't dependent on having grants in order to have some). The world is small so eventually you'll know everyone in the field that matters in Australia which makes conferences far more pleasant - it's like running into a bunch of your old friends every year.
The biggest downsides are:
1) Distance from family. This was the issue that caused me the most agony, because in addition to parents who I'm close to and love, I also have several siblings who I miss dearly. I don't see as much of my nieces and nephews as I would like. However, one thing that made a difference is that I realised that if the US gets that bad politically / economically, me being here will make it easier for my family to escape. Another thing is that although the distance is far -- it really is, if you're in Perth especially it will be -- it effectively doesn't mean I would see them that much less. Even if we lived in the US, unless we were within a few hours' drive, we'd probably only realistically see them two or maybe three times a year. As it is, we budget within an inch of our lives and have managed to see them on average once a year, maybe once every 1.5 years. It's less, but between that and frequent skyping it's not that much less. The main thing we don't have is the ability to just fly over quickly in case of emergency -- I mean, you could, but you'd be out a lot of money.
2) Isolation. I mean this in terms of intellectual isolation of academia. This is also a thing but it's mitigated a lot if you're in a good department. (One reason I'm moving to Melbourne). In fact, my experience is that a department with a poor culture will grind you down so much that it seriously compromises your mental state and quality of life after a while. I would weight that pretty highly. If you were to come, I would strongly recommend trying to travel to at least one international conference a year if you can - I had to not do so for a few years because of small children, and I've felt the cost. If you can, and if you make a concerted effort to maintain collaborations and form new ones with Australian folks, you can mitigate the isolation somewhat. But you'll feel it. The extent to which it will bother you depends on the person.
As I said, you'll have to figure out how to weigh those factors yourself, but I thought you might find it useful to see how someone who recently had to make a very similar decision -- but who knows Australia well -- ended up weighing them. I'm happy to chat more via MeMail if you'd like... and if you do decide to come, feel free to let me know! I am in cognitive science and have started getting pretty interested in studying how people weight different kinds of evidence or decide to search for other evidence, and if you work in epistemology we might have stuff to talk about. :)
posted by forza at 9:51 PM on April 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Go. Consider staying.
Been there. Came back. Too many regrets to list.
posted by jbenben at 10:01 PM on April 12, 2017
Been there. Came back. Too many regrets to list.
posted by jbenben at 10:01 PM on April 12, 2017
Mod note: Updated the question to remove some overly-identifying details; carry on.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:05 PM on April 12, 2017
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:05 PM on April 12, 2017
Mods, maybe removing their fields (there are some references further down) and make the university just generally in Illinois? Signed, a paranoid assistant professor
posted by k8t at 10:11 PM on April 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by k8t at 10:11 PM on April 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
What do your parents say? Have you asked them? I think you will get support from your parents for the move.
I am not in academia so hard for me to comment on that part, but this is a once in a lifetime adventure that even if you do not stay long term your son will appreciate and be better off for having done it.
posted by AugustWest at 10:14 PM on April 12, 2017
I am not in academia so hard for me to comment on that part, but this is a once in a lifetime adventure that even if you do not stay long term your son will appreciate and be better off for having done it.
posted by AugustWest at 10:14 PM on April 12, 2017
Oh yes, that's also a big one. You will not be expected to pay for your child's university education. We have a system where students take out loans from the government, and then pay them back out of their taxes as they work. Don't work, don't pay them back. It's all very civilised. And they're indexed to cost of living, no crazy nuts interest rates.
One thing that will be another culture shock will probably be the students. Very few of them will live on campus, most will still be living at home. They will be younger (I think - I was 17 when I started, I'm fairly certain that's still the norm, though it will change in about 10 years), and legally allowed to drink by the latest by their second year. The students at UWA will probably be from slightly higher socioeconomic background, and probably more likely to have gone to a private school than at other universities, and I imagine this will be most noticeable in the Arts faculty.
posted by kjs4 at 10:15 PM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing that will be another culture shock will probably be the students. Very few of them will live on campus, most will still be living at home. They will be younger (I think - I was 17 when I started, I'm fairly certain that's still the norm, though it will change in about 10 years), and legally allowed to drink by the latest by their second year. The students at UWA will probably be from slightly higher socioeconomic background, and probably more likely to have gone to a private school than at other universities, and I imagine this will be most noticeable in the Arts faculty.
posted by kjs4 at 10:15 PM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure I know who you are, with no background research mind you, not even a Google, so I will add to the calls for more anonymizing.
My mom is actually a product of UWA, although this was a long time ago. But we have family there and it's a nice part of the world. Perth is not the greatest city in the world, but neither is where you are, and the surrounding country is beautiful and comfortable.
The thing is, it sounds like there's a good chance that if you take this job, you won't be able to come back to America without a career change. The professional networks in your field don't really extend between Western Australia and the US, it seems to me. They are very focused on the US East Coast, plus England. Even in California it already feels like a different world. I can't name faculty at any Australian school except ANU. Obviously you can still publish. But being 9,000 miles away, you could just fall out of sight. You won't be part of the conversation. And you could have a very good career at UWA, but without the same access to the academic world you're now a part of. So when you try to look for jobs back in the States, they might be like, Who is this guy and why haven't we heard of him for 5 years?
So you (and your family) have to take the long view and decide if you're okay with the possibility that UWA would be your last permanent academic post, not a stepping-stone on the way to anything else. Nothing wrong with that! But it's a possibility you should confront when you make this decision.
posted by grobstein at 10:35 PM on April 12, 2017
My mom is actually a product of UWA, although this was a long time ago. But we have family there and it's a nice part of the world. Perth is not the greatest city in the world, but neither is where you are, and the surrounding country is beautiful and comfortable.
The thing is, it sounds like there's a good chance that if you take this job, you won't be able to come back to America without a career change. The professional networks in your field don't really extend between Western Australia and the US, it seems to me. They are very focused on the US East Coast, plus England. Even in California it already feels like a different world. I can't name faculty at any Australian school except ANU. Obviously you can still publish. But being 9,000 miles away, you could just fall out of sight. You won't be part of the conversation. And you could have a very good career at UWA, but without the same access to the academic world you're now a part of. So when you try to look for jobs back in the States, they might be like, Who is this guy and why haven't we heard of him for 5 years?
So you (and your family) have to take the long view and decide if you're okay with the possibility that UWA would be your last permanent academic post, not a stepping-stone on the way to anything else. Nothing wrong with that! But it's a possibility you should confront when you make this decision.
posted by grobstein at 10:35 PM on April 12, 2017
Moreover, I wonder what I owe to my son. Education is better (on average, at least) in Australia. There is a sensible healthcare policy. The country is wealthy and safe. I suspect that on those dimensions, my son would be better off growing up in Australia than he would growing up here in the U.S. On the other hand, if we move, he will see very little of his grandparents.
My husband is Australian (I'm from CA - but went to college near Peoria and have spent a lot of time around Aurora/Naperville) and we made the very sensible decision to move back to Sydney for kids, for many of the same reasons. I see you and everyone above using a sort of classic intellectual pro-con list type items. I would make a values chart (a family mission statement!), and list the options across the top, and see which fulfils more of your values.
I ran a Meet-up for expat parents and it had a lot of academics, and I'd think very carefully about what grobstein is saying because it's very very true. I'd also think very carefully and run numbers for visits and talk to your family a lot.
I think Australia is a great place for all the practical reasons listed above, and I have no regrets per se. National health care, sunshine, gun control, decent schools, jobs that pay living wages etc. are all great. But I know, for me, it was an intellectual decision and when we made it I cried. I never cry! It was an obligation to do what's best for kiddo. I had lived in Australia before, and Japan, so for me, this was not "yay, an adventure!". YMMV. I've met a lot of expats who just LOVE it here, who have turned they're whole lives upside down to come here just because they like it so much and it fills they're heart with joy. That's... not me. So other things being equal listen carefully to yourself. I think what gives me serious pause in your particular case isn't even the family thing - it's whether or not you'd be able to leave if you decide it's not for you. What's best for kiddo is having happy engaged parents - not ones who feel trapped (uh, see my recent ask?). Our circumstances have changed and we may go back - happy to go into more detail via MeMail.
posted by jrobin276 at 11:48 PM on April 12, 2017
My husband is Australian (I'm from CA - but went to college near Peoria and have spent a lot of time around Aurora/Naperville) and we made the very sensible decision to move back to Sydney for kids, for many of the same reasons. I see you and everyone above using a sort of classic intellectual pro-con list type items. I would make a values chart (a family mission statement!), and list the options across the top, and see which fulfils more of your values.
I ran a Meet-up for expat parents and it had a lot of academics, and I'd think very carefully about what grobstein is saying because it's very very true. I'd also think very carefully and run numbers for visits and talk to your family a lot.
I think Australia is a great place for all the practical reasons listed above, and I have no regrets per se. National health care, sunshine, gun control, decent schools, jobs that pay living wages etc. are all great. But I know, for me, it was an intellectual decision and when we made it I cried. I never cry! It was an obligation to do what's best for kiddo. I had lived in Australia before, and Japan, so for me, this was not "yay, an adventure!". YMMV. I've met a lot of expats who just LOVE it here, who have turned they're whole lives upside down to come here just because they like it so much and it fills they're heart with joy. That's... not me. So other things being equal listen carefully to yourself. I think what gives me serious pause in your particular case isn't even the family thing - it's whether or not you'd be able to leave if you decide it's not for you. What's best for kiddo is having happy engaged parents - not ones who feel trapped (uh, see my recent ask?). Our circumstances have changed and we may go back - happy to go into more detail via MeMail.
posted by jrobin276 at 11:48 PM on April 12, 2017
I think you're in a very perilous situation in Illinois. The tenure decision is like a big cliff edge and you're driving straight towards it. The fact that they didn't hire the candidate you liked seems like a very bad sign - possibly reason enough to leave in and of itself. Australia, on the other hand, sounds great.
posted by hazyjane at 12:20 AM on April 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by hazyjane at 12:20 AM on April 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Absent that - the only issue I see at all is your parents. Do you have siblings local to them? Then just maintain a savings buffer that allows you to go g home in an emergency. I'm by no means an academic but it sounds like you need to move and this is a good move.
posted by JPD at 8:43 PM on April 12, 2017 [7 favorites]