How to deal with vegan friends who lean militant
January 13, 2017 10:43 PM Subscribe
I have nothing but respect for vegetarians and vegans, in fact I was for four years. However I've since moved on to eat meat again and this creates a ton of friction in friendships.
I think being vegan is a noble cause. It doesn't work for me and I'm OK with that. Since switching to eating meat again, I've always been mindful of buying from local farms that practice sustainable practices -- I didn't just decide that I no longer gave a damn about the plight of animals stuck on Big Ag feedlots, that it wasn't a problem after all. I don't think this should get in the way of relating to others, but it starts to creep up subtly all the time. And it's always said with a tone of condescension, "Well, *I* don't support that industry." This despite knowing that *I* don't support the big agriculture industry either! It makes me kind of angry that, despite countless conversations about how this is much healthier for me and makes me feel better, I'm looked at as some kind of cluelessly cruel animal exploiter. Why does it not matter when I've told them about how being vegan made me sick? Then, everyone becomes an armchair dietitian with all of the requisite training and says, "Maybe you just didn't eat correctly." Maybe, just maybe, not everyone thrives on a vegan diet because everyone's biochemical makeup is not the same. Why is that not a possibility for vegans? Why so much shaming? If a friend of mine makes choices that ultimately lead to better vitality, no matter what it takes, I feel happy for them, because I want to see the people I care about do well.
And how do I deal with those shaming statements? There have been times I'm not able to cover dinner due to being broke that week or whatever, and my vegan friend looks at me and says, "Sorry, I can't pay for you to eat meat." There's something about this that makes me really, really frustrated. I just can't imagine behaving that way.
I think being vegan is a noble cause. It doesn't work for me and I'm OK with that. Since switching to eating meat again, I've always been mindful of buying from local farms that practice sustainable practices -- I didn't just decide that I no longer gave a damn about the plight of animals stuck on Big Ag feedlots, that it wasn't a problem after all. I don't think this should get in the way of relating to others, but it starts to creep up subtly all the time. And it's always said with a tone of condescension, "Well, *I* don't support that industry." This despite knowing that *I* don't support the big agriculture industry either! It makes me kind of angry that, despite countless conversations about how this is much healthier for me and makes me feel better, I'm looked at as some kind of cluelessly cruel animal exploiter. Why does it not matter when I've told them about how being vegan made me sick? Then, everyone becomes an armchair dietitian with all of the requisite training and says, "Maybe you just didn't eat correctly." Maybe, just maybe, not everyone thrives on a vegan diet because everyone's biochemical makeup is not the same. Why is that not a possibility for vegans? Why so much shaming? If a friend of mine makes choices that ultimately lead to better vitality, no matter what it takes, I feel happy for them, because I want to see the people I care about do well.
And how do I deal with those shaming statements? There have been times I'm not able to cover dinner due to being broke that week or whatever, and my vegan friend looks at me and says, "Sorry, I can't pay for you to eat meat." There's something about this that makes me really, really frustrated. I just can't imagine behaving that way.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Sorry, but this is really more of a rant-type complaint for discussion (about a topic people *love* to fight about) than a direct, clear "how do I solve X problem" -- and blanket generalizations make that worse in terms of trying to avoid the thread becoming chat/debate/fight-filter. This really, really needs different framing if it's going to work as a solvable question here. -- taz
There have been times I'm not able to cover dinner due to being broke that week or whatever, and my vegan friend looks at me and says, "Sorry, I can't pay for you to eat meat."
this person is not actually your friend. they're a sanctimonious shithead and you should no longer waste your time in their tiresome presence.
for me this problem cleared up around the time me and my friends hit our 30s. idk if it was some mysterious level of maturity or if they discovered how tiresome it sounded to act like that all the time or if they realized they had better things to do with their lives or whatever. at least two of them are back to being omnivores so that could also be a factor. but in general and in my experience, actual adults don't behave this way.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:09 PM on January 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
this person is not actually your friend. they're a sanctimonious shithead and you should no longer waste your time in their tiresome presence.
for me this problem cleared up around the time me and my friends hit our 30s. idk if it was some mysterious level of maturity or if they discovered how tiresome it sounded to act like that all the time or if they realized they had better things to do with their lives or whatever. at least two of them are back to being omnivores so that could also be a factor. but in general and in my experience, actual adults don't behave this way.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:09 PM on January 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
The easiest thing is to say "I know, sorry, doctor's orders."
However, if you are eating on somebody else's dime, and you know they feel strongly about this, then it might be the polite thing to go meatless for that one meal.
posted by metaseeker at 11:10 PM on January 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
However, if you are eating on somebody else's dime, and you know they feel strongly about this, then it might be the polite thing to go meatless for that one meal.
posted by metaseeker at 11:10 PM on January 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
sorry, hit post before i had fully finished my thoughts:
one of the most important life lessons i've learned is that it is 100% okay for you to walk away from relationships with people who treat you terribly, whether they are friends or family. this person for whom their smug self-righteous sanctimony is more important than you, their alleged friend, being able to eat a meal, is the kind of person you walk away from. i wouldn't let my worst fucking enemy go hungry in front of me, much less someone i actually cared about. what an asshole.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:14 PM on January 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
one of the most important life lessons i've learned is that it is 100% okay for you to walk away from relationships with people who treat you terribly, whether they are friends or family. this person for whom their smug self-righteous sanctimony is more important than you, their alleged friend, being able to eat a meal, is the kind of person you walk away from. i wouldn't let my worst fucking enemy go hungry in front of me, much less someone i actually cared about. what an asshole.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:14 PM on January 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
"do what i say or you go hungry" is straight up fucking abusive.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:15 PM on January 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:15 PM on January 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think they're being a little righteous and you're being a little defensive. You could ask not to discuss the topic, but if you're engaging them in the discussion (which it sounds like you are) they may well have differing views and values than your own. They could believe you that you feel better eating meat but still value animal life over that for you or perhaps even for themselves, for instance, or that eating any meat furthers the Big Ag causes more than being vegan does, or whatever they believe. Discussing belief systems, politics, etc. can be too much for some relationships.
I also think it gets a little blurry when you ask people to buy you things they are morally against, though I totally get how it would feel really infantilizing in the moment when they reject the notion. But just because eating meat makes you feel better doesn't mean you can't eat meals without it occasionally when they're being gifted to you.
Or maybe all of these things seem like too much work, in which case it sounds like you need new friends.
posted by vegartanipla at 11:16 PM on January 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
I also think it gets a little blurry when you ask people to buy you things they are morally against, though I totally get how it would feel really infantilizing in the moment when they reject the notion. But just because eating meat makes you feel better doesn't mean you can't eat meals without it occasionally when they're being gifted to you.
Or maybe all of these things seem like too much work, in which case it sounds like you need new friends.
posted by vegartanipla at 11:16 PM on January 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I get being able to not eat meat occasionally when it's being gifted to me, for sure! What I don't get is why, within that friendship, only one person's preferences count. Why both people can't nourish themselves in the ways that are best for both of them. I would never, ever feel comfortable controlling the choice of another person, no matter what I believe. That is the factor that bothers me more than anything else. As I said, I respect the people making this choice. I don't respect the condescension, which seem to be part and parcel.
posted by a knot unknown at 11:22 PM on January 13, 2017
posted by a knot unknown at 11:22 PM on January 13, 2017
I am familiar with this attitude and it is so patronising. I'm very sorry.
My suggestion is to not combat this or make excuses. Instead I would just go all doe-eyed and say something like "I really respect your ability to remain committed." And then change the topic.
And frankly, if you are going to be relying on someone else to pay for your meal, order vegan food. I mean, my best friend won't buy me a Nestle candybar*, and I don't think that doesn't mean she doesn't love me. She has ethical boundaries and I respect those.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:26 PM on January 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
My suggestion is to not combat this or make excuses. Instead I would just go all doe-eyed and say something like "I really respect your ability to remain committed." And then change the topic.
And frankly, if you are going to be relying on someone else to pay for your meal, order vegan food. I mean, my best friend won't buy me a Nestle candybar*, and I don't think that doesn't mean she doesn't love me. She has ethical boundaries and I respect those.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:26 PM on January 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
They shit on you because others shit on them for being vegan. You're an easy target.
Plus, Happy People Don't Do Bad Things (tm.)
posted by jbenben at 11:33 PM on January 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Plus, Happy People Don't Do Bad Things (tm.)
posted by jbenben at 11:33 PM on January 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
When you do X it makes me feel Y because Z.
When you say that I support big agriculture, it makes me feel like you don't listen to me, because I've told you many times I only eat farm raised meat.
Plenty of dieticians, including Micheal Pollan, support eating meat for the simple reason that if no one ate animals there wouldn't be any of them. To live is to kill, even if it is just plants.
posted by xammerboy at 11:35 PM on January 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
When you say that I support big agriculture, it makes me feel like you don't listen to me, because I've told you many times I only eat farm raised meat.
Plenty of dieticians, including Micheal Pollan, support eating meat for the simple reason that if no one ate animals there wouldn't be any of them. To live is to kill, even if it is just plants.
posted by xammerboy at 11:35 PM on January 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I would never, ever feel comfortable controlling the choice of another person, no matter what I believe.
On your first point I disagree with you. I won't be buying automatic weapons for people, or acquiring stolen merchandise, or making other purchases for others that are against my value system. And in fact, it seems to me like you are attempting to control the vegan's choice when you ask them to violate their value system. They made a choice (to be vegan, to not buy animal products) and you made a choice (to eat meat among other foods in your diet) so if you want them to buy you food, it seems like the only non-conflicting option that honors both choices is the one where you order the hummus platter.
If you're paying for yourself, though, they should not start shaming you at the sight of your meatballs. By the same token, you shouldn't tell them, unprompted, that they should have no problem with your meatballs because reasons.
I absolutely agree with you that if they are condescending towards you, that is problematic. True friends should be able to respect each other despite and sometimes because of their differences. But again, I feel it's disrespectful to ask them to compromise their morality when it's not harming yours, so I think there's error on all sides here.
posted by vegartanipla at 11:54 PM on January 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
On your first point I disagree with you. I won't be buying automatic weapons for people, or acquiring stolen merchandise, or making other purchases for others that are against my value system. And in fact, it seems to me like you are attempting to control the vegan's choice when you ask them to violate their value system. They made a choice (to be vegan, to not buy animal products) and you made a choice (to eat meat among other foods in your diet) so if you want them to buy you food, it seems like the only non-conflicting option that honors both choices is the one where you order the hummus platter.
If you're paying for yourself, though, they should not start shaming you at the sight of your meatballs. By the same token, you shouldn't tell them, unprompted, that they should have no problem with your meatballs because reasons.
I absolutely agree with you that if they are condescending towards you, that is problematic. True friends should be able to respect each other despite and sometimes because of their differences. But again, I feel it's disrespectful to ask them to compromise their morality when it's not harming yours, so I think there's error on all sides here.
posted by vegartanipla at 11:54 PM on January 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Because they believe that animals' rights to not be killed and eaten should outweigh your choice to eat them, even if you feel better. I'm not as obnoxious about this (I don't think I've ever told anyone else to eat meat), but it bothers me. They (I?) actually do believe you should not be able to choose to eat them, any more than you should be able to choose other kinds of harm to others.
posted by Violet Hour at 11:55 PM on January 13, 2017
posted by Violet Hour at 11:55 PM on January 13, 2017
Sounds sort of like the folks who say that people who accept food stamps cannot buy certain foods with them. Either they are gifting you the meal or they are not. I agree with you that it is uncomfortable controlling someone else's choice, but I am not sure that is what they are doing here. Your preferences and theirs are on opposite ends when it comes to eating meat, so of course only one of you is going to rule the final decision. I have found that person is usually the one with the money.
I think they are condescending to you and you are a bit defensive about it. I think the solution is a combination of accepting their decisions and time or terminating the friendships.
posted by AugustWest at 11:56 PM on January 13, 2017
I think they are condescending to you and you are a bit defensive about it. I think the solution is a combination of accepting their decisions and time or terminating the friendships.
posted by AugustWest at 11:56 PM on January 13, 2017
Why is that not a possibility for vegans? Why so much shaming?
Well, I know vegans who aren't like that (I eat meat). One of them paid for the organic turkey at Thanksgiving, which was served in their own home (turkey was cooked elsewhere). This was for a gathering where many of those attending were vegan or vegetarian with many vegan dishes available, and the turkey -- in the traditional serving form of being unmistakably a large dead bird -- was right there in the middle of the buffet spread (but where no bits of meat might fall into a vegan dish by accident in the serving process, of course).
I also know at least one omnivore who is extremely moralistic in their views towards anything related to food and eating and tries to impose them on others to a very unusual extent.
Are your friends really adamant about their personal views on other topics? Some people just have trouble taking the perspective of anyone other than themselves into account on a number of topics. Often it doesn't really make itself clear until your personal preferences come to a head with theirs in some way -- and other than living with someone or going on a low-planning type trip, food is one of the few major ways this might become really apparent in an adult friendship.
There have been times I'm not able to cover dinner due to being broke that week or whatever
As far as a friendship goes, if a friend of mine wants to buy me a meal, we are usually going to a place that they picked. If they pick a vegan restaurant, that's what we are eating -- or if they said they wanted to buy me a vegan meal at a regular restaurant I'd be happy to accept. Just like if they invited you to dinner at their house, the host is in the position of deciding what they want to host you for -- if you don't want what they are offering, you don't have to accept the invitation.
Requesting that your friend buy you a meal is basically like asking them to lend you money for a specific thing -- and a meal out isn't a necessity like groceries. You aren't asking for a basic thing, but a luxury. Also, it's not clear from your question but if you are asking people to "cover dinner" after you've eaten and the bill comes, you're doing it wrong.
posted by yohko at 11:59 PM on January 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Well, I know vegans who aren't like that (I eat meat). One of them paid for the organic turkey at Thanksgiving, which was served in their own home (turkey was cooked elsewhere). This was for a gathering where many of those attending were vegan or vegetarian with many vegan dishes available, and the turkey -- in the traditional serving form of being unmistakably a large dead bird -- was right there in the middle of the buffet spread (but where no bits of meat might fall into a vegan dish by accident in the serving process, of course).
I also know at least one omnivore who is extremely moralistic in their views towards anything related to food and eating and tries to impose them on others to a very unusual extent.
Are your friends really adamant about their personal views on other topics? Some people just have trouble taking the perspective of anyone other than themselves into account on a number of topics. Often it doesn't really make itself clear until your personal preferences come to a head with theirs in some way -- and other than living with someone or going on a low-planning type trip, food is one of the few major ways this might become really apparent in an adult friendship.
There have been times I'm not able to cover dinner due to being broke that week or whatever
As far as a friendship goes, if a friend of mine wants to buy me a meal, we are usually going to a place that they picked. If they pick a vegan restaurant, that's what we are eating -- or if they said they wanted to buy me a vegan meal at a regular restaurant I'd be happy to accept. Just like if they invited you to dinner at their house, the host is in the position of deciding what they want to host you for -- if you don't want what they are offering, you don't have to accept the invitation.
Requesting that your friend buy you a meal is basically like asking them to lend you money for a specific thing -- and a meal out isn't a necessity like groceries. You aren't asking for a basic thing, but a luxury. Also, it's not clear from your question but if you are asking people to "cover dinner" after you've eaten and the bill comes, you're doing it wrong.
posted by yohko at 11:59 PM on January 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
I would try to stop talking about food with these friends, similar to how you might steer conversations away from religion or politics with other friends. I realize that some vegans' favorite topic is veganism so this might be hard, but try to find some new ground. I do this with friends with eating disorders because the conversations aren't healthy for anyone.
But, part of this is declining dinner invitations when you're too broke to pay for your meal, since asking them to pay is a conversation about food. And it is possible that your friend's refusal to pay for meat is based in frustration at being asked to pay for your meal too many times.
posted by acidic at 12:02 AM on January 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
But, part of this is declining dinner invitations when you're too broke to pay for your meal, since asking them to pay is a conversation about food. And it is possible that your friend's refusal to pay for meat is based in frustration at being asked to pay for your meal too many times.
posted by acidic at 12:02 AM on January 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bleep at 11:02 PM on January 13, 2017 [2 favorites]