La Vie En Rose-Colored Glasses
July 21, 2016 11:00 AM
I have been back in New York City for less than 24 hours after my second trip to Paris, and came home with starry eyes. And - in the past 3 hours, enough people have remarked on that and said "why don't you just move there?" that I'm starting to think about it. I need some reality.
So, I'm verrrrrrrry aware that I have spent only a grand and glorious total of only two weeks in Paris, and during those two weeks I was on vacation and so I didn't have to deal with yicky things like rent payments and health care and garbage collection and any of the other assorted nonsense of every day life, and so everything was shiny and happy and wonderful. But I have fallen stupidly in love with Paris, and even have a couple of contacts there already (the Paris Mefites met up with me the first time, and I met up with one of 'em the second time - and I even have been on dates with a Parisian guy each visit, and we're in touch even still with talk of continued contact). But - my roommate is from Brussels, and said that the cost of living in Paris would be cheaper, overall, than what I'm paying here in New York, and so that's got me thinking.
So - can anyone comment on any of the pros and cons I've identified below:
PRO -
* HOLY MOTHER OF GOD do I love that city.
* I am single and childless and in good health, so the only person I'd be uprooting is me.
* I would be closer to the rest of Europe, which would make it easier to travel to other European countries I want to visit.
* See above re: standard of living.
* I have some people I sort of know there now so there would be the beginnings of a friend network.
* I've been a person of slender means pretty much my whole life, so I don't need to be living in, like, the Marais or anything. (In fact, I kind of prefer it in the funkier regions.)
CON -
* My French skills are...meh. Not "halting high school French" level, but...not fluent, either.
* I don't have any kind of job lined up, and I don't know how I'd market myself as a sexy potential job candidate since my job history is in the dime-a-dozen role of clerical staff.
* The only other work experience I have is in theater, which would be even harder to find a living wage in.
* I've been a person of slender means my whole life, so one big expense and I'd be in some deep merde.
So - is it actually indeed realistic that someone like me could indeed get a good enough job that I could seriously consider moving to Paris? Or is there a hell of a lot more to it than that, and am I better off as I am now, where I'll just visit a fuckton? ("Visit a fuckton" was already the plan A, no matter what.)
Thanks.
So, I'm verrrrrrrry aware that I have spent only a grand and glorious total of only two weeks in Paris, and during those two weeks I was on vacation and so I didn't have to deal with yicky things like rent payments and health care and garbage collection and any of the other assorted nonsense of every day life, and so everything was shiny and happy and wonderful. But I have fallen stupidly in love with Paris, and even have a couple of contacts there already (the Paris Mefites met up with me the first time, and I met up with one of 'em the second time - and I even have been on dates with a Parisian guy each visit, and we're in touch even still with talk of continued contact). But - my roommate is from Brussels, and said that the cost of living in Paris would be cheaper, overall, than what I'm paying here in New York, and so that's got me thinking.
So - can anyone comment on any of the pros and cons I've identified below:
PRO -
* HOLY MOTHER OF GOD do I love that city.
* I am single and childless and in good health, so the only person I'd be uprooting is me.
* I would be closer to the rest of Europe, which would make it easier to travel to other European countries I want to visit.
* See above re: standard of living.
* I have some people I sort of know there now so there would be the beginnings of a friend network.
* I've been a person of slender means pretty much my whole life, so I don't need to be living in, like, the Marais or anything. (In fact, I kind of prefer it in the funkier regions.)
CON -
* My French skills are...meh. Not "halting high school French" level, but...not fluent, either.
* I don't have any kind of job lined up, and I don't know how I'd market myself as a sexy potential job candidate since my job history is in the dime-a-dozen role of clerical staff.
* The only other work experience I have is in theater, which would be even harder to find a living wage in.
* I've been a person of slender means my whole life, so one big expense and I'd be in some deep merde.
So - is it actually indeed realistic that someone like me could indeed get a good enough job that I could seriously consider moving to Paris? Or is there a hell of a lot more to it than that, and am I better off as I am now, where I'll just visit a fuckton? ("Visit a fuckton" was already the plan A, no matter what.)
Thanks.
This video, though comedy, might be helpful in recalling that Paris is limerance, while NYC is like a marriage of convienience.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:10 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:10 AM on July 21, 2016
Well...in most EU countries like France, to be granted a work permit your employer would have to demonstrate that it can't fill your position with an EU citizen. Hard to imagine that being the case for clerical staff, especially clerical staff that lack fluency in the country's language.
Also, if you've never spent a significant amount of time living in a non-Anglophone country, you may not be taking into consideration how exhausting it is to conduct all your daily business in a language you don't know well. It can really wear you down.
posted by praemunire at 11:11 AM on July 21, 2016
Also, if you've never spent a significant amount of time living in a non-Anglophone country, you may not be taking into consideration how exhausting it is to conduct all your daily business in a language you don't know well. It can really wear you down.
posted by praemunire at 11:11 AM on July 21, 2016
I wouldn't just move there willy nilly, but sure, check out the cost of housing, and the availability of English speaking jobs. If you can make it work, by all means go.
I'm a rational person but I've made quite a few key decisions along the way in my life by listening to my heart . . . when I chose my college, my law school, my current city, and my husband, to name a few. I've never been sorry.
posted by bearwife at 11:11 AM on July 21, 2016
I'm a rational person but I've made quite a few key decisions along the way in my life by listening to my heart . . . when I chose my college, my law school, my current city, and my husband, to name a few. I've never been sorry.
posted by bearwife at 11:11 AM on July 21, 2016
I think the visa is likely to be the main problem - once you live there your French will improve rapidly, and you'll no doubt find a job doing something (bar work, English teaching, cleaner) where your language skills are less of an issue until you're fluent, but you will need a visa and work permit first, and without a job lined up I'm not sure you'll get one...
If you have or can get an EU passport (Irish grandparents?) then you're in a much better position. I'd try to have a cushion of savings first (so maybe move in a year rather than right now), but yeah why not? If everything goes tits up would your family let you sleep in their floor for a month or two while you got back on your feet? If they would, I would go for it.
posted by tinkletown at 11:14 AM on July 21, 2016
If you have or can get an EU passport (Irish grandparents?) then you're in a much better position. I'd try to have a cushion of savings first (so maybe move in a year rather than right now), but yeah why not? If everything goes tits up would your family let you sleep in their floor for a month or two while you got back on your feet? If they would, I would go for it.
posted by tinkletown at 11:14 AM on July 21, 2016
If you're in love with Paris now, you still will be in a few years. Could you develop a skill that IS in demand?
posted by aniola at 11:15 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by aniola at 11:15 AM on July 21, 2016
Man I'm not saying it's a great idea and is going to work out, but if you research it and find out you could stay for x number of years and do some sort of job that would pay your bills there, go for it. All I've ever wanted to do is move to the West coast and I'm in the midst of planning it now, and I just keep thinking how I should have done this a decade ago when I didn't have a house and so many responsibilities and wasn't so starkly aware of the downsides of such a big move. I have only ever lived places out of necessity and I think the fulfillment that will come from choosing where to reside and making your own future, even if it's super hard and you end up waiting tables, will be worth it, at least temporarily. Maybe you won't end up living there for the next 20 years, but even the next two would be so freakin' cool! Do it!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 11:16 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by masquesoporfavor at 11:16 AM on July 21, 2016
The most straightforward way would probably be to join their foreign military or marry someone French.
posted by aniola at 11:17 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by aniola at 11:17 AM on July 21, 2016
A summary glance of shortage occupations
I did have a group of friends at university that crafted their own study-abroad program, lived in Paris for a year, and went to the École des Beaux-Arts. Going to a university there and developing some additional skills might be a more feasible option.
Regarding housing: In 2004, housing was fairly inexpensive by contemporary European standards in 2004, but also small and old with lots of room-share setups. It probably is the same price per square meter as other European cities, just with a lot fewer square meters.
posted by Llamadogdad at 11:20 AM on July 21, 2016
I did have a group of friends at university that crafted their own study-abroad program, lived in Paris for a year, and went to the École des Beaux-Arts. Going to a university there and developing some additional skills might be a more feasible option.
Regarding housing: In 2004, housing was fairly inexpensive by contemporary European standards in 2004, but also small and old with lots of room-share setups. It probably is the same price per square meter as other European cities, just with a lot fewer square meters.
posted by Llamadogdad at 11:20 AM on July 21, 2016
Are you familiar with the blogger Jordan Ferney? She moved to Paris for an 18-month stint with her husband and two kids. She wrote up a bit about the process here and here although it may not be completely relevant to you because she and her husband got tourist visas and worked remotely rather than obtaining work visas. Here is her main Paris page which might lead to other articles you find interesting.
Good luck!
posted by kate blank at 11:32 AM on July 21, 2016
Good luck!
posted by kate blank at 11:32 AM on July 21, 2016
Too bad you aren't Canadian, you could get a 1-year working holiday visa for people 35 and under.
As an aid to future interested Mefites, Countries with a youth mobility agreement with France currently include Argentina, Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Hong Kong.
If you were interested in France and not just Paris, you could try WWOOF, which would enable you to obtain free room and board in exchange for a few hours' work on an organic farm every day. Not paid, mind you - so presumably you could stay up to 90 days on a regular visa if you've got sufficient savings.
posted by lizbunny at 11:35 AM on July 21, 2016
As an aid to future interested Mefites, Countries with a youth mobility agreement with France currently include Argentina, Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Hong Kong.
If you were interested in France and not just Paris, you could try WWOOF, which would enable you to obtain free room and board in exchange for a few hours' work on an organic farm every day. Not paid, mind you - so presumably you could stay up to 90 days on a regular visa if you've got sufficient savings.
posted by lizbunny at 11:35 AM on July 21, 2016
All I can offer, based on the experiences of non-EU nationals living in Ireland, is--if you do--don't take tempting shortcuts. Don't try and finesse immigration/visa rules. if you are going to work secure a proper work permit. Do a trial run before you fully commit to relocating and do not make the decision based on personal anecdotes. If you are going to do it--do it legally. It is amazing how many people try and stay under the radar--which works until it doesn't. Often when trying to reenter the country. Also, do not underestimate the pressure of living/working where you are not fluent in the primary language--easy to have acquaintances but it can be hard to make friends. But the odds are they speak English better than you do French. If having considered these things--Enjoy.
posted by rmhsinc at 11:42 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by rmhsinc at 11:42 AM on July 21, 2016
I checked and USAjobs.com only has a single job listing for Paris. But, generally speaking, if you can get a security clearance, applying for a federal job where you want to be is one pathway to getting there.
Becoming an entrepreneur or developing a portable income is an option. My income is portable and would allow me to move anywhere in the US. It would get more complicated if I wished to leave the US, but would potentially be do-able.
As noted above, marriage is one way to get there. It is also something you shouldn't do as a means to game the visa system. They look for that.
I will suggest you get the book "Wishcraft." It talks about how to get stuff done, in spite of being human. One example in the book is someone who decided to move from the US to Australia.
You start by making lists of what needs to happen, like getting a visa. You find out details of what needs to happen. You start making those things happen. Little by little, you get closer to your goal.
I would move to Europe in a heartbeat if it was something feasible for me. It just isn't right now. Right now, California is where I need to be. So, you know, if I sound like I am pushing for you to move there, it is my bias speaking.
Best.
posted by Michele in California at 11:53 AM on July 21, 2016
Becoming an entrepreneur or developing a portable income is an option. My income is portable and would allow me to move anywhere in the US. It would get more complicated if I wished to leave the US, but would potentially be do-able.
As noted above, marriage is one way to get there. It is also something you shouldn't do as a means to game the visa system. They look for that.
I will suggest you get the book "Wishcraft." It talks about how to get stuff done, in spite of being human. One example in the book is someone who decided to move from the US to Australia.
You start by making lists of what needs to happen, like getting a visa. You find out details of what needs to happen. You start making those things happen. Little by little, you get closer to your goal.
I would move to Europe in a heartbeat if it was something feasible for me. It just isn't right now. Right now, California is where I need to be. So, you know, if I sound like I am pushing for you to move there, it is my bias speaking.
Best.
posted by Michele in California at 11:53 AM on July 21, 2016
Businesses in Paris do often need to hire native English speakers for various jobs, including for example technical writing which I'm thinking you'd be very good at. Because of Brexit, they may not be able to rely on people from the UK for these roles going forward so might need to hire more Americans and get them work visas. Therefore, you might want to work towards breaking into technical writing in the US with a view towards moving to Paris in 3 years time or so when Brexit may take effect.
Otherwise I was also going to suggest figuring out a way to work remotely so that you would be able to live anywhere in the world and get paid in dollars in the U.S.
posted by hazyjane at 11:58 AM on July 21, 2016
Otherwise I was also going to suggest figuring out a way to work remotely so that you would be able to live anywhere in the world and get paid in dollars in the U.S.
posted by hazyjane at 11:58 AM on July 21, 2016
Seconding every word of praemunire's comment. Every single word.
When my blog was active I got this question all the time, because people (understandably) didn't know my full history in the country and got the impression that "all" I'd done was find a job that covered a work visa. Holy sweet mother of baby Jesus blessed by the Holy Spirit that is a simplification.
And on preview, please, not just you Empress but anyone reading this, do NOT think that bloggers who manage to freelance on tourist visas is a way to go either. I can guaran-freaking-tee you those bloggers are not telling the full story. Also, it is a very bad idea. Do people get away with it? Sure! Do people get caught and thrown out of the country and forbidden entrance to the EU? Yes! Guess which ones are more likely to publicize and romanticize their experience. Anyway, doom and gloom aside.
The two main ways are finding work with a US company based in Paris (realistically speaking) or, yes, marrying a French citizen. The second option isn't as rosy as it sounds. I know a lot of women who went that route and have found themselves quite isolated – this includes well-known "American/Australian/Kiwi in France/Paris" bloggers who would never say it on their blog, but absolutely have issues.
The best way really is to see if an American company will be happy to hire you. Or, yes, it would also be possible to come as a student. Might be ideal as well since it's defined in time; you could then see how long the limerence lasts. Gotta agree it is limerence. I live here and raised an eyebrow that you prefer the funkier regions. Right now you're naïve (in the literal sense, not a critique), you do not know the nitty-gritty of Parisian cultures, racism, xenophobia, etc. and how that does indeed translate for a foreign white woman in France. Yes, Americans are seen as foreigners. We get smiles and nods when we're tourists. That changes when we live here. Just because you like it in an area doesn't mean your neighbors, building managers, etc. and so forth will. I'm speaking from lived experience.
Absolutely seconding to do everything by the book. Don't cut corners. Like I mentioned earlier, yes, there are people who happily chat and talk up their wonderful experiences on tourist visas for years without an issue. It's never that simple.
Finally, because I've handled questions like this for twenty years now and it always comes around to "well how did YOU manage??" good lord I am like the worst example possible. I did everything by the book when it comes to visas et cetera. On the other hand, I pulled off a career switch that still leaves my very own managers speechless when they learn about it. My experience allows me to be acknowledged for my skill now, so most don't know that I started off from a very different area. It's not something... anyone... does... here. Very short summary: I went from freelance translating (while with a French citizen, my ex) to getting hired as an IT consultant by a French company, without a degree in IT. Things that basically never happen here: an American getting hired by a French company and sticking it out for more than a year or two, and getting hired without a degree in the area you want to work. Most Americans tear their hair out and run away screaming when faced with life in French offices. I, on the other hand, tore my hair out and screamed in private while doing my best to communicate at the office. As for the degree thing? No, seriously, it never happens, do NOT use me as an example. It was one of those wildly unique stories that could only happen at that time, in that place, with the specific person who hired me, and with my specific background. This is a compliment to the person who hired me, btw, because they pulled off something that they had failed at several other times (namely, trying to hire someone they knew was a good worker but didn't have the right degree).
The thing about Americans running away screaming from French offices? I can't repeat it often enough. I'm in a company of 20,000 employees in France, mmkay. I'm the only American. I have NEVER met an American, in my twenty years here, who has stuck it out in a Franco-French company. So: really seriously honestly not kidding, best to go through an American company with offices in Paris.
Geh. On preview. Technical writing is flooded with native English speakers from the UK. Been there done that. Pays terribly, very very few jobs available, and they go to EU or Schengen citizens. Brexit probably won't affect it much.
And on further preview. Going the "portable revenue" part is a nix. Just because you're paid in dollars in the US does not mean you will be exempt from visa issues. If they actually let people do this the country would be full of Americans. Speaking as someone who went an even more reasonable route (freelancing in France, as a self-employed person registered in France, paid in francs and then euros).
posted by fraula at 12:01 PM on July 21, 2016
When my blog was active I got this question all the time, because people (understandably) didn't know my full history in the country and got the impression that "all" I'd done was find a job that covered a work visa. Holy sweet mother of baby Jesus blessed by the Holy Spirit that is a simplification.
And on preview, please, not just you Empress but anyone reading this, do NOT think that bloggers who manage to freelance on tourist visas is a way to go either. I can guaran-freaking-tee you those bloggers are not telling the full story. Also, it is a very bad idea. Do people get away with it? Sure! Do people get caught and thrown out of the country and forbidden entrance to the EU? Yes! Guess which ones are more likely to publicize and romanticize their experience. Anyway, doom and gloom aside.
The two main ways are finding work with a US company based in Paris (realistically speaking) or, yes, marrying a French citizen. The second option isn't as rosy as it sounds. I know a lot of women who went that route and have found themselves quite isolated – this includes well-known "American/Australian/Kiwi in France/Paris" bloggers who would never say it on their blog, but absolutely have issues.
The best way really is to see if an American company will be happy to hire you. Or, yes, it would also be possible to come as a student. Might be ideal as well since it's defined in time; you could then see how long the limerence lasts. Gotta agree it is limerence. I live here and raised an eyebrow that you prefer the funkier regions. Right now you're naïve (in the literal sense, not a critique), you do not know the nitty-gritty of Parisian cultures, racism, xenophobia, etc. and how that does indeed translate for a foreign white woman in France. Yes, Americans are seen as foreigners. We get smiles and nods when we're tourists. That changes when we live here. Just because you like it in an area doesn't mean your neighbors, building managers, etc. and so forth will. I'm speaking from lived experience.
Absolutely seconding to do everything by the book. Don't cut corners. Like I mentioned earlier, yes, there are people who happily chat and talk up their wonderful experiences on tourist visas for years without an issue. It's never that simple.
Finally, because I've handled questions like this for twenty years now and it always comes around to "well how did YOU manage??" good lord I am like the worst example possible. I did everything by the book when it comes to visas et cetera. On the other hand, I pulled off a career switch that still leaves my very own managers speechless when they learn about it. My experience allows me to be acknowledged for my skill now, so most don't know that I started off from a very different area. It's not something... anyone... does... here. Very short summary: I went from freelance translating (while with a French citizen, my ex) to getting hired as an IT consultant by a French company, without a degree in IT. Things that basically never happen here: an American getting hired by a French company and sticking it out for more than a year or two, and getting hired without a degree in the area you want to work. Most Americans tear their hair out and run away screaming when faced with life in French offices. I, on the other hand, tore my hair out and screamed in private while doing my best to communicate at the office. As for the degree thing? No, seriously, it never happens, do NOT use me as an example. It was one of those wildly unique stories that could only happen at that time, in that place, with the specific person who hired me, and with my specific background. This is a compliment to the person who hired me, btw, because they pulled off something that they had failed at several other times (namely, trying to hire someone they knew was a good worker but didn't have the right degree).
The thing about Americans running away screaming from French offices? I can't repeat it often enough. I'm in a company of 20,000 employees in France, mmkay. I'm the only American. I have NEVER met an American, in my twenty years here, who has stuck it out in a Franco-French company. So: really seriously honestly not kidding, best to go through an American company with offices in Paris.
Geh. On preview. Technical writing is flooded with native English speakers from the UK. Been there done that. Pays terribly, very very few jobs available, and they go to EU or Schengen citizens. Brexit probably won't affect it much.
And on further preview. Going the "portable revenue" part is a nix. Just because you're paid in dollars in the US does not mean you will be exempt from visa issues. If they actually let people do this the country would be full of Americans. Speaking as someone who went an even more reasonable route (freelancing in France, as a self-employed person registered in France, paid in francs and then euros).
posted by fraula at 12:01 PM on July 21, 2016
Remember, first, that when one has spent some time in nice foreign place, one falls in love with so many things and a bloom of desire sweeps aside all the negative or possible negative things about that visited place. That said: you seem to have nothing really to lose by living your dream. I have a good friend whose son went to Paris after graduation in America. Has been there ever since, nice job, married, and now a daddy.
posted by Postroad at 12:01 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by Postroad at 12:01 PM on July 21, 2016
There's a few routes you can take.
1. Enroll in a Masters degree at an institution in France. Many of them are being offered partially or exclusively in English. Research on http://www.usa.campusfrance.org/en/ for an introduction to how education works there and a global application portal. You can sign up to receive marketing materials from any university that you're interested in.
2. Tourist visa plus remote work, as kate blank described.
3. Get a job offer and have the French-American Chamber of Commerce sponsor you for a one-year work visa. (Sorry, I think that you may have aged out of this eligibility, but others may be interested.)
4. Marry or civil-union a French person. Proceed with caution.
But my best suggestion: If you truly want to just scratch the itch of living there for a few months, how about enrolling in a language school for 4-6 months?
posted by Liesl at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2016
1. Enroll in a Masters degree at an institution in France. Many of them are being offered partially or exclusively in English. Research on http://www.usa.campusfrance.org/en/ for an introduction to how education works there and a global application portal. You can sign up to receive marketing materials from any university that you're interested in.
2. Tourist visa plus remote work, as kate blank described.
3. Get a job offer and have the French-American Chamber of Commerce sponsor you for a one-year work visa. (Sorry, I think that you may have aged out of this eligibility, but others may be interested.)
4. Marry or civil-union a French person. Proceed with caution.
But my best suggestion: If you truly want to just scratch the itch of living there for a few months, how about enrolling in a language school for 4-6 months?
posted by Liesl at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2016
Would you be willing to live outside of Paris at first, and commute in for fun? The trains there are pretty great, and you may be able to find a job more readily in a less popular destination.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2016
Google "expat France" for a long, long list of expat boards where you can ask your questions. The French are notoriously finicky about visas and work permits. They will run you through flaming hoops the likes of which will make dealing with US bureaucracy seem like a cakewalk. Ditto utilities, returning items at a store--or even buying them. That said, I understand your limerance and indulged it in a memorable two years there. Every day was magical and dreamlike even at the visa office, which generated some laughs retrospectively. But I went with some money, work, passable French, and experience with France. Oh, yeah, I have an EU passport via European ancestry. So:
--Are you willing to really get your French up to speed? You might be able to do French immersion language studies on a three-month visa or see if you can qualify for a student visa for longer to learn the visa ropes and see if your dream holds up. If you go this route, do your classes in the AM, leaving your afternoons and evenings free. People I know who studied languages all day wound up missing out on the wonderful daily life they went to their countries to experience. If you do class work, make sure they include a conversational component. There are loads of conversation Meetups in Paris--great fun and a way to meet French people who want to try out their English.
--Can you try out three months in Paris, in winter, Jan-Mar to see how it feels to have extremely short, gray days and be cold and damp? Right now, in July, it gets dark around 9:30 or later. In January, try 4:00 PM. It rains in Paris more than in London. Parisians usually leave the apartment with an umbrella from mid-October to May.
--Do you have a European parents, or possibly a grandparent, in an EU country that will let you get an EU passport via family heritage?
--The dollar is strong right now, but you're still going to lose 10% (that's $10 every time) you spend $100.
See if you can test the waters for several months at a less than ideal time of the year.
posted by Elsie at 12:04 PM on July 21, 2016
--Are you willing to really get your French up to speed? You might be able to do French immersion language studies on a three-month visa or see if you can qualify for a student visa for longer to learn the visa ropes and see if your dream holds up. If you go this route, do your classes in the AM, leaving your afternoons and evenings free. People I know who studied languages all day wound up missing out on the wonderful daily life they went to their countries to experience. If you do class work, make sure they include a conversational component. There are loads of conversation Meetups in Paris--great fun and a way to meet French people who want to try out their English.
--Can you try out three months in Paris, in winter, Jan-Mar to see how it feels to have extremely short, gray days and be cold and damp? Right now, in July, it gets dark around 9:30 or later. In January, try 4:00 PM. It rains in Paris more than in London. Parisians usually leave the apartment with an umbrella from mid-October to May.
--Do you have a European parents, or possibly a grandparent, in an EU country that will let you get an EU passport via family heritage?
--The dollar is strong right now, but you're still going to lose 10% (that's $10 every time) you spend $100.
See if you can test the waters for several months at a less than ideal time of the year.
posted by Elsie at 12:04 PM on July 21, 2016
Y'all are providing me with the reality check that I am needing, so thank you.
Honestly, where my head was actually at was "okay, lemme just keep visiting over the next five years, and if I am even more stupid in love with the place after five years of visits, THEN I will start looking into a serious life change," and I was more asking whether I was being TOO cautious. It sounds, though, like that degree of caution is pretty much about right. Y'all are actually kind of reinforcing that my own gut instincts are right and that everyone else who's been telling me "wow, you should move there!" are the ones who are a little unrealistic. Like I thought.
(Although, the fact that people are saying that one way to get a visa is to marry a French guy is giving me some interesting chuckles, seeing as how I had a bit of a fling with a French guy that is turning out to have a bit more to it than I thought - he's already asked when I'm visiting again, and when I said I didn't know, he said "well, then maybe I'll come visit you" and I was TOTALLY not expecting that. Still not taking it seriously, but it is leading my mind down interesting paths....)
Thanks!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:24 PM on July 21, 2016
Honestly, where my head was actually at was "okay, lemme just keep visiting over the next five years, and if I am even more stupid in love with the place after five years of visits, THEN I will start looking into a serious life change," and I was more asking whether I was being TOO cautious. It sounds, though, like that degree of caution is pretty much about right. Y'all are actually kind of reinforcing that my own gut instincts are right and that everyone else who's been telling me "wow, you should move there!" are the ones who are a little unrealistic. Like I thought.
(Although, the fact that people are saying that one way to get a visa is to marry a French guy is giving me some interesting chuckles, seeing as how I had a bit of a fling with a French guy that is turning out to have a bit more to it than I thought - he's already asked when I'm visiting again, and when I said I didn't know, he said "well, then maybe I'll come visit you" and I was TOTALLY not expecting that. Still not taking it seriously, but it is leading my mind down interesting paths....)
Thanks!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:24 PM on July 21, 2016
am I better off as I am now, where I'll just visit a fuckton? ("Visit a fuckton" was already the plan A, no matter what.)
Yup. Because if everything goes to plan (B), i.e. you get a good, well-paying non-temp career-track job in one of the ways described above, it is going to take ~5 years to feel or be anything like settled, if you don't already speak the language semi-fluently, maybe more. Absolutely everything will just be harder than it is here.
Plan B might not unfold perfectly, and you could wind up just existing in a foreign country. In a way it's nice to be anonymous like. To not be held to anything from your past, and be freed from expectations (others', your own) about achievement, status - you're just a tourist, then, no one will ask anything of you. But this is a self-defeating trap, imo. Because it's not like you'll be spontaneously offered anything real in return, in the way of connection. To most people, you will always be a foreigner. (Unless you marry a French person, then you'll have a spouse and family.)
I have a rough idea about your age, from past posts... I think it matters. How old are your parents, are they in good health? They won't always be, and dealing with aging or ailing parents from a distance is agony. How are you for savings, for your own later years? I think that 35 cutoff for the working holiday visas makes sense for a lot of reasons, people younger than that have more time to recover from any losses in time or capital.
I think your plan A rocks, though. What about working towards a career in the US that will give you more $ and flexibility for travel?
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:34 PM on July 21, 2016
Yup. Because if everything goes to plan (B), i.e. you get a good, well-paying non-temp career-track job in one of the ways described above, it is going to take ~5 years to feel or be anything like settled, if you don't already speak the language semi-fluently, maybe more. Absolutely everything will just be harder than it is here.
Plan B might not unfold perfectly, and you could wind up just existing in a foreign country. In a way it's nice to be anonymous like. To not be held to anything from your past, and be freed from expectations (others', your own) about achievement, status - you're just a tourist, then, no one will ask anything of you. But this is a self-defeating trap, imo. Because it's not like you'll be spontaneously offered anything real in return, in the way of connection. To most people, you will always be a foreigner. (Unless you marry a French person, then you'll have a spouse and family.)
I have a rough idea about your age, from past posts... I think it matters. How old are your parents, are they in good health? They won't always be, and dealing with aging or ailing parents from a distance is agony. How are you for savings, for your own later years? I think that 35 cutoff for the working holiday visas makes sense for a lot of reasons, people younger than that have more time to recover from any losses in time or capital.
I think your plan A rocks, though. What about working towards a career in the US that will give you more $ and flexibility for travel?
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:34 PM on July 21, 2016
Actually, I forgot to mention my age in the cons - I am middle-aged (46), and my parents are in their 70s. Which would be difficult going.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:39 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:39 PM on July 21, 2016
Can you get a leave of absence from your company and go on a tourist visa for 6 months? Perhaps the place you love for one week might lose its lustre after 6 months. (Though I agree that Paris is amazing.) Perhaps 6 or even 3 months is 'enough' for your purposes.
posted by thenormshow at 12:48 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by thenormshow at 12:48 PM on July 21, 2016
Yeah, don't move there, you'll ruin the magic, honestly. I love Paris more than you can imagine, have been madly in love with it since the first time I visited aged 6. The only period in my life where I was meh about it was the year I lived there (studying on an exchange year and living super-centrally in the 7th arr't, so it wasn't even half as much stress as working there).
If you can, take long(er) trips (weeks!), take your time to breathe in its magic and revel in its beauty, then go back home with that image of a perfect city in your heart and count down the days until your next visit.
posted by ClarissaWAM at 12:51 PM on July 21, 2016
If you can, take long(er) trips (weeks!), take your time to breathe in its magic and revel in its beauty, then go back home with that image of a perfect city in your heart and count down the days until your next visit.
posted by ClarissaWAM at 12:51 PM on July 21, 2016
The other thing I will say is: Expect it to be hard to make this transition. Really hard, like trial by fire hard.
I graduated high school with people I went to kindergarten with, married a guy who only wanted a military career and I had basically never been anywhere but I wanted to go. The first duty station was utter torture and it took me years to stop hating on Texas and blaming Texas and conclude that Texas had actually been really supportive. It was just leaving everything I had ever known and being dumped into completely alien everything (plus had my first child there, which is not an issue you will face.)
I do not regret it and I got what I wanted out of life. But it was enormously harder than I expected it to be. My dad had been career military, though he retired when I was three. I had a lot of familiarity with the military end of things and that was super helpful, but I thought that my familiarity with the military meant this would be a breeze. And it wasn't.
You are talking about walking away from everything you know. It will be quite a shock.
There may be ways to make it less of a shock, like visiting repeatedly, gradually getting to know it more, and making the transition slowly over time. But whatever your life is now, it won't be that anymore. It may be vastly more wonderful, but it will still be a big adjustment.
On the upside, in recent years, moving has been a lot easier thanks to the internet. You can stay a member of MeFi and that will help, but you may find it to be a different experience when logged in from a different time zone.
If you spend a lot of time online, that can help reduce how shocking and different life will be. That piece can remain more familiar. But it won't eliminate it by any stretch of the imagination.
posted by Michele in California at 12:59 PM on July 21, 2016
I graduated high school with people I went to kindergarten with, married a guy who only wanted a military career and I had basically never been anywhere but I wanted to go. The first duty station was utter torture and it took me years to stop hating on Texas and blaming Texas and conclude that Texas had actually been really supportive. It was just leaving everything I had ever known and being dumped into completely alien everything (plus had my first child there, which is not an issue you will face.)
I do not regret it and I got what I wanted out of life. But it was enormously harder than I expected it to be. My dad had been career military, though he retired when I was three. I had a lot of familiarity with the military end of things and that was super helpful, but I thought that my familiarity with the military meant this would be a breeze. And it wasn't.
You are talking about walking away from everything you know. It will be quite a shock.
There may be ways to make it less of a shock, like visiting repeatedly, gradually getting to know it more, and making the transition slowly over time. But whatever your life is now, it won't be that anymore. It may be vastly more wonderful, but it will still be a big adjustment.
On the upside, in recent years, moving has been a lot easier thanks to the internet. You can stay a member of MeFi and that will help, but you may find it to be a different experience when logged in from a different time zone.
If you spend a lot of time online, that can help reduce how shocking and different life will be. That piece can remain more familiar. But it won't eliminate it by any stretch of the imagination.
posted by Michele in California at 12:59 PM on July 21, 2016
sound advice above - only thing I'd like to add is: in Paris, there are many international agencys and businesses (not only American) where English language skills are needed - OECD was first in my mind, because I've had some work there. Also, there are French businesses with an international outlook who hire and embrace international staff - my brother worked for one for a decade, and yes, they were different, but also in fun ways.
My brother's conversational French is good, though (he has never needed to write in French).
Life in Europe is easier than in NYC in some ways, but it is more complicated in others. Rents are lower and wages are higher, and if you find a job you will have long holidays and great healthcare (for which you pay high taxes). But there are some rules and mores you will never ever get, and people will behave badly towards you and be unhelpful, just because you are foreign, and there will be a negativity you just can't get around —obviously not from friends but from random people on the street, officials, colleagues. All Americans, even Newyorkers, are just much more open and friendly than most Europeans.
Finding friends may be hard for that reason, though there is a huge expat community in Paris, and some international theatre communities.
French bureaucracy is amazing. I've owned a house in France and it was endlessly complicated, always. When it's mixed up with xenophobia, it can be quite depressing.
I read on some food blog about how every French person connects every meal with their ancient history — IMO, the author was more than a little sentimental, lots of French people eat at McDonalds or take stuff out of the freezer. But still, lets look at the reverse of that: you are sitting with some friends for a meal all relaxed and happy, and then you do something WRONG, because you are FOREIGN, because only they have five centuries of experience of the very exact way to extract snails from their shells with a toothpick (why yes, I have French cousins, how did you guess?) Maybe I'm projecting, but when I read about Julia Child, I recognize a lot of the pain of trying to fit in. That hasn't changed at all, as I see it.
posted by mumimor at 1:05 PM on July 21, 2016
My brother's conversational French is good, though (he has never needed to write in French).
Life in Europe is easier than in NYC in some ways, but it is more complicated in others. Rents are lower and wages are higher, and if you find a job you will have long holidays and great healthcare (for which you pay high taxes). But there are some rules and mores you will never ever get, and people will behave badly towards you and be unhelpful, just because you are foreign, and there will be a negativity you just can't get around —obviously not from friends but from random people on the street, officials, colleagues. All Americans, even Newyorkers, are just much more open and friendly than most Europeans.
Finding friends may be hard for that reason, though there is a huge expat community in Paris, and some international theatre communities.
French bureaucracy is amazing. I've owned a house in France and it was endlessly complicated, always. When it's mixed up with xenophobia, it can be quite depressing.
I read on some food blog about how every French person connects every meal with their ancient history — IMO, the author was more than a little sentimental, lots of French people eat at McDonalds or take stuff out of the freezer. But still, lets look at the reverse of that: you are sitting with some friends for a meal all relaxed and happy, and then you do something WRONG, because you are FOREIGN, because only they have five centuries of experience of the very exact way to extract snails from their shells with a toothpick (why yes, I have French cousins, how did you guess?) Maybe I'm projecting, but when I read about Julia Child, I recognize a lot of the pain of trying to fit in. That hasn't changed at all, as I see it.
posted by mumimor at 1:05 PM on July 21, 2016
I didn't mention in my post but I lived in Paris for 7 years and knew many American friends who had managed to find a way to live there - and work for French companies as tech writers or work remotely. However my experience is almost ten years old so it sounds like things have changed and you should listen to fraula whose experience is more recent/ongoing.
posted by hazyjane at 1:56 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by hazyjane at 1:56 PM on July 21, 2016
Yyyyyeah, definitely looking like the "plan A" of just visiting as much as possible is definitely the wiser choice. Thanks to all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:59 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:59 PM on July 21, 2016
That list of shortage occupations is fascinating and the job titles are... much more attainable than I'd have expected. Insurance operations managers? Auditors? Merchandizers? These are not, like, neurological research MD PhD slots.
In the meantime, take some courses through Alliance Française or similar if you've got one near you. Meet people. Make connections. Look into expat communities online. Look into US (or wherever) employers that have French divisions. There are entire books on how to do this (I read one a few years back called "Getting Out").
I lived in France for a year (Orléans, not Paris). It was great. Do it if you're motivated, just don't expect it to happen tomorrow.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:03 PM on July 21, 2016
In the meantime, take some courses through Alliance Française or similar if you've got one near you. Meet people. Make connections. Look into expat communities online. Look into US (or wherever) employers that have French divisions. There are entire books on how to do this (I read one a few years back called "Getting Out").
I lived in France for a year (Orléans, not Paris). It was great. Do it if you're motivated, just don't expect it to happen tomorrow.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:03 PM on July 21, 2016
Oh, and in my defense, to Fraula:
I live here and raised an eyebrow that you prefer the funkier regions.
All I meant was that I don't need to be living in quaint little streets with picturesque views or stylish hotspots; and that places that are a little scruffy-looking don't scare me. I lived in the Lower East Side in the pre-Giuliani days, when there really were guys trying to offer you smack on the sidewalk in broad daylight.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:04 PM on July 21, 2016
I live here and raised an eyebrow that you prefer the funkier regions.
All I meant was that I don't need to be living in quaint little streets with picturesque views or stylish hotspots; and that places that are a little scruffy-looking don't scare me. I lived in the Lower East Side in the pre-Giuliani days, when there really were guys trying to offer you smack on the sidewalk in broad daylight.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:04 PM on July 21, 2016
one way to get a visa is to marry a French guy
A much easier way is to marry a non-French [but still E.U.] guy who lives in [or wants to move to] France.
Marrying a French citizen will make you subject to French immigration law - there will be some hoops to jump through.
Marrying a non-French E.U. citizen will make you subject to the E.U. freedom of movement laws, and that means automatic right to live & work, without requiring a visa, essentially as long as you're legally married[*], it's a rubber stamp.
* They may even recognize a de-facto partnership - worth checking.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 8:18 PM on July 21, 2016
A much easier way is to marry a non-French [but still E.U.] guy who lives in [or wants to move to] France.
Marrying a French citizen will make you subject to French immigration law - there will be some hoops to jump through.
Marrying a non-French E.U. citizen will make you subject to the E.U. freedom of movement laws, and that means automatic right to live & work, without requiring a visa, essentially as long as you're legally married[*], it's a rubber stamp.
* They may even recognize a de-facto partnership - worth checking.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 8:18 PM on July 21, 2016
I say if you find a way to do it, do it. I moved from the US to the UK 13 years ago, when I was 18, by myself, because I was determined to do it*. I can't imagine what my life would be like if I hadn't. I also have some friends who've moved from London to France and even though it hasn't been easy they don't regret it, because they love France and always wanted to live there.
* Big difference though: I have dual citizenship with an EU nation.
posted by toerinishuman at 11:24 PM on July 21, 2016
* Big difference though: I have dual citizenship with an EU nation.
posted by toerinishuman at 11:24 PM on July 21, 2016
FWIW, having a place in your life that you love, which you visit repeatedly over a long period of time, which remains ever-untarnished by the stresses of work and life admin, is a really wonderful thing.
posted by penguin pie at 6:45 AM on July 22, 2016
posted by penguin pie at 6:45 AM on July 22, 2016
You've overall pretty much validated an opinion that I had anyway, and reassured me that I was being realistic instead of pessimistic - which is what I was looking for. I'm marking this "resolved", but this seems to be a good general reality check for other future "should I be an expat or not" questions too.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:37 AM on July 22, 2016
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:37 AM on July 22, 2016
It seems like you've really grounded yourself on this Empress, but one thing that's really impressed itself on me as I have lived in very different cities over the years is that a good situation in a city you don't much like is a lot better than a bad situation in a city you love.
My wife and I were recently looking to make a big move with our two kids because my job was portable, and she was out of work, with seemingly no good opportunities in her field locally. So she started applying for jobs all over the North American and Europe (she's an EU citizen), as well as further afield. Each time she got offered an interview, we had to do a little family huddle and ask ourselves, do we really want to move to this place? Or rather, how good would the job have to be for us to want to move to this place?
There were a lot of city-related factors in this discussion of course, but they were things like distance from family, quality of schools, cost of living... things that are all pretty much orthogonal to "Do I LOVE this city?"
In the end, we found ourselves (both of us having lived in a bunch of places we variously liked and disliked) finding that when we were considering moving to a city that we knew we loved, that was a factor that would turn what was otherwise a yes into a FUCK YES, but not a factor that would turn a no into a yes. Maybe that sounds too safe and conservative, but I've been poor and isolated in places that I unequivocally love, and I'd rather be comfortable and surrounded by good people in a kinda meh place.
The good news for us is that my wife ended up getting a job in Montreal, which was a FUCK YES city for both of us, even if not quite as far flung and exotic as some of the other places she interviewed. On that note, if you haven't visited Montreal, you should come check it out. There are a lot of people from France who came here and then just decided to never go back because they fell in love with Montreal. And it's much more accessible for both visiting and up-and-moving from NYC.
posted by 256 at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2016
My wife and I were recently looking to make a big move with our two kids because my job was portable, and she was out of work, with seemingly no good opportunities in her field locally. So she started applying for jobs all over the North American and Europe (she's an EU citizen), as well as further afield. Each time she got offered an interview, we had to do a little family huddle and ask ourselves, do we really want to move to this place? Or rather, how good would the job have to be for us to want to move to this place?
There were a lot of city-related factors in this discussion of course, but they were things like distance from family, quality of schools, cost of living... things that are all pretty much orthogonal to "Do I LOVE this city?"
In the end, we found ourselves (both of us having lived in a bunch of places we variously liked and disliked) finding that when we were considering moving to a city that we knew we loved, that was a factor that would turn what was otherwise a yes into a FUCK YES, but not a factor that would turn a no into a yes. Maybe that sounds too safe and conservative, but I've been poor and isolated in places that I unequivocally love, and I'd rather be comfortable and surrounded by good people in a kinda meh place.
The good news for us is that my wife ended up getting a job in Montreal, which was a FUCK YES city for both of us, even if not quite as far flung and exotic as some of the other places she interviewed. On that note, if you haven't visited Montreal, you should come check it out. There are a lot of people from France who came here and then just decided to never go back because they fell in love with Montreal. And it's much more accessible for both visiting and up-and-moving from NYC.
posted by 256 at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2016
Why not take some time off of work and enroll in a language course? That would take care of the visa for the time being, let you try out living there, and also improve your French in case you do decide to move there.
It's fine if you decide not to go live there, but I say if you continually have this itch, you might as well scratch it. It doesn't have to be permanent. I lived in china for several years and have no regrets, and hey, that's gotta be harder to adjust to than France...
posted by bearette at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2016
It's fine if you decide not to go live there, but I say if you continually have this itch, you might as well scratch it. It doesn't have to be permanent. I lived in china for several years and have no regrets, and hey, that's gotta be harder to adjust to than France...
posted by bearette at 10:30 AM on July 22, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 AM on July 21, 2016