Tell me about your / your kids' experiences in weekend language school
January 18, 2016 8:15 AM
We are thinking of enrolling our (half-Japanese) 5yo son in ほしゅうこう, Saturday Japanese school. I understand the pros - he's unlikely to attain any kind of conversational proficiency unless he has a formal impetus. But I'm worried about the cons: stress, anxiety, lots of extra homework, major reduction in family time. I'd love to hear from people who attended weekend language school as a child, or who have enrolled their child in one. Or even religious school, if it had a significant time commitment. Of course every family and every child is different, but I'm interested in hearing a variety of experiences of how it did or didn't work for you.
I want to hear from any and everyone, but here are a few snowflakes in case you have additional insight.
My biggest concern is that Micropanda is an anxious and high-strung child. It took him a long time to adapt to the switch from daycare to preschool. He's been in occupational therapy for a year, and he's doing worlds better. However, he's still easily stressed. My biggest concern is that starting the school would probably mean he would have to give up his Saturday AM OT slot and that would be very difficult to get back (there's usually a long waiting list for weekend appointments). So the obvious "try the language school and see what happens" is a little more fraught than it would be otherwise.
The protective part of me is screaming that it's a terrible idea to take away something that has been such a big positive influence and replace it with something that will press every anxiety button he has. It's bigger and a bit rowdier (think traditional public school feel) than his very small, very calm preschool. On top of that, when we ask him to speak in Japanese at home, you can see his blood pressure rise.
But the flip side is, Micropanda has significant family in Japan with whom he will be functionally unable to interact if we don't get him to learn some Japanese. He gets some exposure at home but since I'm the default parent, it's not enough. This might be something that really gets him to grow his comfort zones - the last thing I want to do is keep his world artificially constricted because I'm afraid he can't handle it. And he will eventually need to be able to function in a regular school environment.
I wish we could kick the can a little further down the road, but the school wants kids to start in the kindergarten class because it's more play based than first grade, which starts getting academic. They want the kids to be settled in before the difficulty ramps up. Micropanda is not in kindergarten yet because he misses the US calendar cutoff, but by the Japanese calendar he should be starting their kindergarten this year.
Finally, dad and I both work, so our weekday time together is limited. I'm definitely nervous about giving up most of our Saturday.
SO: were you reluctant at first but ended up loving language school? Did you hate it as a kid but now that you're an adult you're glad your parents made you do it? Did it just suck and you never learned anything? If you're a parent, has it been good for your kids? Thanks!
I want to hear from any and everyone, but here are a few snowflakes in case you have additional insight.
My biggest concern is that Micropanda is an anxious and high-strung child. It took him a long time to adapt to the switch from daycare to preschool. He's been in occupational therapy for a year, and he's doing worlds better. However, he's still easily stressed. My biggest concern is that starting the school would probably mean he would have to give up his Saturday AM OT slot and that would be very difficult to get back (there's usually a long waiting list for weekend appointments). So the obvious "try the language school and see what happens" is a little more fraught than it would be otherwise.
The protective part of me is screaming that it's a terrible idea to take away something that has been such a big positive influence and replace it with something that will press every anxiety button he has. It's bigger and a bit rowdier (think traditional public school feel) than his very small, very calm preschool. On top of that, when we ask him to speak in Japanese at home, you can see his blood pressure rise.
But the flip side is, Micropanda has significant family in Japan with whom he will be functionally unable to interact if we don't get him to learn some Japanese. He gets some exposure at home but since I'm the default parent, it's not enough. This might be something that really gets him to grow his comfort zones - the last thing I want to do is keep his world artificially constricted because I'm afraid he can't handle it. And he will eventually need to be able to function in a regular school environment.
I wish we could kick the can a little further down the road, but the school wants kids to start in the kindergarten class because it's more play based than first grade, which starts getting academic. They want the kids to be settled in before the difficulty ramps up. Micropanda is not in kindergarten yet because he misses the US calendar cutoff, but by the Japanese calendar he should be starting their kindergarten this year.
Finally, dad and I both work, so our weekday time together is limited. I'm definitely nervous about giving up most of our Saturday.
SO: were you reluctant at first but ended up loving language school? Did you hate it as a kid but now that you're an adult you're glad your parents made you do it? Did it just suck and you never learned anything? If you're a parent, has it been good for your kids? Thanks!
(And I would add, please don't pressure your child to speak Japanese at home or enroll him in a school that takes away his occupational therapy. He can learn to speak Japanese when he is older, if he chooses to. Or he can choose not to.)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on January 18, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on January 18, 2016
This is extremely anecdotal, but almost everyone I know who did weekend language school says some variation of "oh, yeah, I took Hebrew/Russian/Chinese school for ten years, and I still can't speak a word of it." Plus, most of them resented it (basically, think the Greek school in My Big Fat Greek Wedding).
Nevertheless, I still resent my parents for not putting me in Hebrew school (specifically, one we visited and liked but they decided that "the drive was too long"). I felt very alienated from the Jewish community because it seemed like every Jewish kid except me had this thing in common except me.
posted by R a c h e l at 8:38 AM on January 18, 2016
Nevertheless, I still resent my parents for not putting me in Hebrew school (specifically, one we visited and liked but they decided that "the drive was too long"). I felt very alienated from the Jewish community because it seemed like every Jewish kid except me had this thing in common except me.
posted by R a c h e l at 8:38 AM on January 18, 2016
I have lots of friends that did weekend language schools. If their parents didn't speak in the home, the weekend classes merely taught them a smidge of letter recognition and some songs.
But that wasn't the point.
The point was to establish a connection to one's ethnic heritage from teachers who are more "in it" than the parents are and can pass down various traditions as well as help children establish a group of friends from that ethnicity.
And for nearly everyone I know who did weekend language schools, they have a slightly deeper connection to their ethnicity than they could have otherwise.
Everyone I know felt that these classes were a burden but they are glad they did them.
It could be a wonderful experience and just starting them will let you feel it out. And if you don't have the time for the homework so be it.
posted by k8t at 8:39 AM on January 18, 2016
But that wasn't the point.
The point was to establish a connection to one's ethnic heritage from teachers who are more "in it" than the parents are and can pass down various traditions as well as help children establish a group of friends from that ethnicity.
And for nearly everyone I know who did weekend language schools, they have a slightly deeper connection to their ethnicity than they could have otherwise.
Everyone I know felt that these classes were a burden but they are glad they did them.
It could be a wonderful experience and just starting them will let you feel it out. And if you don't have the time for the homework so be it.
posted by k8t at 8:39 AM on January 18, 2016
Also anecdotal, but every Chinese American I've talked to who went to Saturday Chinese schools claims to have both not liked it and not really to have learned anything. As someone who has studied Chinese and worked in language programs, I think those Saturday schools may help in building a foundation to seriously learn the language as an adult/in college, though. Others with more direct experience should have more to say.
posted by bearette at 8:41 AM on January 18, 2016
posted by bearette at 8:41 AM on January 18, 2016
We have a child in ほしゅうこう as well. It does take a lot of time and parental involvement for homework during the week. Our child is a doddler, so a focused kid might do a little better, but he spends about 30 minutes a day on homework in grade 1. We manage it carefully so that it's split into little chunks each day. As an english speaker, I can help with the math and other items, but my spouse has to do most of the language work. I managed through kindergarten, but grade 1 left me behind.
My only regret is that our child can't play many league sports (soccer, hockey, etc.) as they are all on Saturday at this age. The homework itself is not that bad.
Being able to be fully bilingual (having Japanese friends, being able to read in Japanese, being able to talk with relatives) definitely outweighs the loss of Saturdays for us, but YMMV. Our second child will head off to ほしゅうこう as well in a year. Little kids do seem to pick up other languages and writing systems very well, so starting early is really an advantage to developing true fluency.
On preview - the comments that Saturday language programs don't really help learn don't represent our experience in the Japanese school. All the kids we see develop fluency really quickly and appear to maintain it.
posted by V'Ger at 8:45 AM on January 18, 2016
My only regret is that our child can't play many league sports (soccer, hockey, etc.) as they are all on Saturday at this age. The homework itself is not that bad.
Being able to be fully bilingual (having Japanese friends, being able to read in Japanese, being able to talk with relatives) definitely outweighs the loss of Saturdays for us, but YMMV. Our second child will head off to ほしゅうこう as well in a year. Little kids do seem to pick up other languages and writing systems very well, so starting early is really an advantage to developing true fluency.
On preview - the comments that Saturday language programs don't really help learn don't represent our experience in the Japanese school. All the kids we see develop fluency really quickly and appear to maintain it.
posted by V'Ger at 8:45 AM on January 18, 2016
I'm a Chinese-American who went to Chinese school every Saturday morning starting kindergarten until high school graduation. I hated it as a kid but now, almost 20 years after graduating from high school, I'm really glad that my parents made me go. It exposed me to the language and culture and gave me a foundation so that when I wanted to learn more as an adult, it wasn't so painful. Also, I think the best part of it for me was that my classmates and I formed long-lasting bonds.
posted by mbidi at 9:09 AM on January 18, 2016
posted by mbidi at 9:09 AM on January 18, 2016
My parents put me and my brother in evening community-school Spanish classes starting when we were each about 8 years old, and I feel like I got a good connection to the culture (not my family's culture) and also picked up a facility with Spanish that means even though I'm out of practice speaking now, I can still read it pretty well. My brother has now traveled to Spain, Venezuela, and other Latin American countries multiple times, and I think those classes really gave him a solid foundation for his later learning, too.
So actual language-and-culture classes like that, if offered through a community college or high school in your area (even if they're technically for adults or older kids), could be another option when your child is a few years older, if the intensive weekend classes don't work out in terms of timing. I still had a lot to learn in language classes later on, but I feel like I picked it up a lot faster than I otherwise would have, and ultimately went farther with it than most students in my school. And doing it in the evening on weekdays meant I could take part in organized sports on the weekends.
posted by limeonaire at 9:13 AM on January 18, 2016
So actual language-and-culture classes like that, if offered through a community college or high school in your area (even if they're technically for adults or older kids), could be another option when your child is a few years older, if the intensive weekend classes don't work out in terms of timing. I still had a lot to learn in language classes later on, but I feel like I picked it up a lot faster than I otherwise would have, and ultimately went farther with it than most students in my school. And doing it in the evening on weekdays meant I could take part in organized sports on the weekends.
posted by limeonaire at 9:13 AM on January 18, 2016
In Toronto heritage language was taught in school (on weekdays for half an hour or so a day) starting in Grade 1 and then in HS there were regular old courses that you could take like any regular old HS credit course (at school, in night school, in summer school). I know lots and lots of people who did this. I did not do it for my own heritage language, but did take Italian in grades 3-5 in a heritage language class during the regular school day.
Can I speak Italian? Not in the have-a-full-on-conversation sense, but I understand the Northern Italian accent fully. I have trouble with understanding southern italians. I can read Italian for any functional purposes (i.e. I could read a newspaper and understand it, I would struggle to read a novel. Maybe a kids story book I could do). I recently went to Italy and had no trouble with things like asking questions, understanding directions given in Italian or engaging in basic transactions in Italian. Now I should add that in addition to having taken those heritage language classes, about half the students at my HS were Italian, so I frequently heard bits of Italian spoken here and there, though generally what I heard in school would be in the form of short imperatives or expletives.
In addition to taking Italian classes, I sat through several years of portuguese heritage language classes (because I was in the room even though I wasn't taking the class). At the time I understood 100% of what was being said. Now I'm not so sure my comprehension would be that high, but if you dropped me in portugal, I'm sure I could make due. I have no idea if I could read. I've never really tried.
For the people who did heritage language all through elementary school (and sometimes high school), their language skills are all excellent. Things like spelling might not be great, but they can converse, watch tv and do just about anything else in those languages. The thing to remember though is that these are heritage language classes, not "as a second language classes." THey're meant for people who basically do speak the language. It sounds like your son does speak Japanese (i.e. knows Japanese) and chooses not to speak. That's ok. If you're speaking Japanese at home and speak to him in Japanese, he will be bilingual. I know at least two people whose parents spoke to them in language X growing up and they always answered in English and are fully bilingual in language X as adults.
He doesn't need to go to classes to become bilingual if you're speaking at home. If you want him to learn to read and write and to speak better Japanese, maybe he can go to language school later. I mean he's not even in kindergarten yet. It seems a little early to get him to read or write in any language. At that age, it's all about exposure and there's no reason he can't get his exposure at home. Speak to him in Japanese. Read to him in Japanese. When he's older and doesn't need OT anymore, you can start more formal instruction if you like.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:13 AM on January 18, 2016
Can I speak Italian? Not in the have-a-full-on-conversation sense, but I understand the Northern Italian accent fully. I have trouble with understanding southern italians. I can read Italian for any functional purposes (i.e. I could read a newspaper and understand it, I would struggle to read a novel. Maybe a kids story book I could do). I recently went to Italy and had no trouble with things like asking questions, understanding directions given in Italian or engaging in basic transactions in Italian. Now I should add that in addition to having taken those heritage language classes, about half the students at my HS were Italian, so I frequently heard bits of Italian spoken here and there, though generally what I heard in school would be in the form of short imperatives or expletives.
In addition to taking Italian classes, I sat through several years of portuguese heritage language classes (because I was in the room even though I wasn't taking the class). At the time I understood 100% of what was being said. Now I'm not so sure my comprehension would be that high, but if you dropped me in portugal, I'm sure I could make due. I have no idea if I could read. I've never really tried.
For the people who did heritage language all through elementary school (and sometimes high school), their language skills are all excellent. Things like spelling might not be great, but they can converse, watch tv and do just about anything else in those languages. The thing to remember though is that these are heritage language classes, not "as a second language classes." THey're meant for people who basically do speak the language. It sounds like your son does speak Japanese (i.e. knows Japanese) and chooses not to speak. That's ok. If you're speaking Japanese at home and speak to him in Japanese, he will be bilingual. I know at least two people whose parents spoke to them in language X growing up and they always answered in English and are fully bilingual in language X as adults.
He doesn't need to go to classes to become bilingual if you're speaking at home. If you want him to learn to read and write and to speak better Japanese, maybe he can go to language school later. I mean he's not even in kindergarten yet. It seems a little early to get him to read or write in any language. At that age, it's all about exposure and there's no reason he can't get his exposure at home. Speak to him in Japanese. Read to him in Japanese. When he's older and doesn't need OT anymore, you can start more formal instruction if you like.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:13 AM on January 18, 2016
Have you spoken with the school and the teachers who would be working with your son about his anxiety issues, and freezing up when you ask him to speak Japanese at home? If not, that should be your first step. I think if the kindergarten class is play-based, it may not be as anxiety-producing as you fear, and if you talk with the head of school / teachers, and let them know your concerns, they can keep an eye on your son to make sure he is transitioning. You may be able to schedule OT at a different day or time, if you're willing to use another therapist, so he wouldn't have to lose out.
I'm unfamiliar with Saturday schools, and defer to those who have that experience. Our 7-year-old is in a bilingual school (not Japanese), with a half day for each language, and I have definitely noticed that even with that level of interaction + daily homework, the kids who are genuinely picking up the non-native language are the ones who are getting it reinforced at home. I suspect that if you are committed to having Micropanda learn Japanese, you will actually need to do more Japanese speaking in the home, ideally by finding ways (again, the school should be able to make suggestions) that will be the least anxiety-producing. Maybe picking a set time of day or a set activity during which only Japanese is spoken, or times when you / your spouse only speak Japanese and he can answer in English but gets a bonus of some sort for using Japanese. Maybe you can find a kid his age or a bit older who only speaks Japanese and arrange playdates. There has to be something in it for your child to want to succeed, otherwise it will just get filed under "annoying thing parents think is important", and he'll get as little out of it as he can get away with it.
posted by Mchelly at 9:13 AM on January 18, 2016
I'm unfamiliar with Saturday schools, and defer to those who have that experience. Our 7-year-old is in a bilingual school (not Japanese), with a half day for each language, and I have definitely noticed that even with that level of interaction + daily homework, the kids who are genuinely picking up the non-native language are the ones who are getting it reinforced at home. I suspect that if you are committed to having Micropanda learn Japanese, you will actually need to do more Japanese speaking in the home, ideally by finding ways (again, the school should be able to make suggestions) that will be the least anxiety-producing. Maybe picking a set time of day or a set activity during which only Japanese is spoken, or times when you / your spouse only speak Japanese and he can answer in English but gets a bonus of some sort for using Japanese. Maybe you can find a kid his age or a bit older who only speaks Japanese and arrange playdates. There has to be something in it for your child to want to succeed, otherwise it will just get filed under "annoying thing parents think is important", and he'll get as little out of it as he can get away with it.
posted by Mchelly at 9:13 AM on January 18, 2016
I'm one of the people who went to Chinese language weekend school for years and even took a year at college, and am illiterate nonetheless. Here are a few things that I think predisposed me to fail, all of which can be summarized as "insufficient practice". I would say, if you can fix some or all of these problems with my education, go for it. I regret my illiteracy every time my parents and I email each other in English.
- We speak a different dialect at home. I was much more successful at learning that dialect, and can now make small talk with relatives and family friends. So if you want your kid to learn Japanese to talk to his relatives, you need to speak it at home.
- I spoke English with all my friends, because most of them were not Chinese and it's sort of impolite to have private conversations in mixed groups. I never had the experience I saw around me of groups of Jewish-only or Korean-only kids jabbering away at teach other in their own languages. In addition to not giving me any practice, that also made Chinese seem like a household language, with limited utility outside the home. So if possible, try to arrange play dates with only Japanese speakers in attendance. The school might help with that.
- As for the reading and writing, I just didn't do it enough. There were no Chinese bedtime stories, not even casual exposure via street signs and grocery store labels. It's very hard to learn and maintain several thousand written characters on a few hours a week of practice. Although maybe Japanese will be easier in this regard, since you can partially use the hiragana.
posted by d. z. wang at 9:16 AM on January 18, 2016
- We speak a different dialect at home. I was much more successful at learning that dialect, and can now make small talk with relatives and family friends. So if you want your kid to learn Japanese to talk to his relatives, you need to speak it at home.
- I spoke English with all my friends, because most of them were not Chinese and it's sort of impolite to have private conversations in mixed groups. I never had the experience I saw around me of groups of Jewish-only or Korean-only kids jabbering away at teach other in their own languages. In addition to not giving me any practice, that also made Chinese seem like a household language, with limited utility outside the home. So if possible, try to arrange play dates with only Japanese speakers in attendance. The school might help with that.
- As for the reading and writing, I just didn't do it enough. There were no Chinese bedtime stories, not even casual exposure via street signs and grocery store labels. It's very hard to learn and maintain several thousand written characters on a few hours a week of practice. Although maybe Japanese will be easier in this regard, since you can partially use the hiragana.
posted by d. z. wang at 9:16 AM on January 18, 2016
When I read your post, it sounds like waiting a year or so to start the language school would be best. Your son can continue his Saturday AM OT sessions for now; perhaps next year he will feel ready and excited, and the waiting could mean a lifetime of happier formal language learning. If the school offers seasonal events, you could attend and see if your son feels interested so the choice feels more like his and there's more buy-in. As k8t said, these classes are often more about helping children feel connected to their heritage than becoming fluent. However, there are many ways to feel connected: learning the language as a preschooler can help form a good foundation but it's not the be-all, end-all.
I have an extensive background in language acquisition, both on a personal and professional level, and work with language learners every day. I have had Japanese-German-American students who became fluent and successful in all three languages: it's rare but possible, and takes a great deal of familiar motivation and support. (FWIW, based on my own research: while there are Saturday schools that do not lead to fluency, most good German and Japanese ones absolutely can and do lead to true bilingualism.) The students had learning Japanese as their main extracurricular activity but they also did clubs, sports, and more. They alternated going to Germany and Japanese during the summers, and had strong connections to family and friends both places. Having "carrots" like that to look forward to definitely help with motivation. (Their study of German was less formal until high school but they were actually excellent even without the formal schooling.) It seemed like Japanese school was both a great joy (good friends, sleepovers, cultural connections, etc.) but also a LOT of work. One of them remarked how "all those years of Japanese were worth it" when she got to meet Shinji Kagawa and he complimented her on her Japanese speaking ability!
I am bilingual in German and English: I was surrounded by aspects of German-American culture but did not start truly learning beyond hello and good-bye until I was in middle school. Growing up, I was envious of my siblings' fluency (different language) and so badly wanted to be bilingual (with any language!) However, as an adult I have zero regrets for having started later: I have a teeny American accent but I'm also fluent and very educated and have a great love and motivation for the language. (After all, it's my career!) I lived and studied abroad and feel respected and accepted by both US and German culture. The Japanese language and culture is so popular in the US right now: I know of so many teens without Japanese heritage who dream of learning and language and visiting the country. I'm sure your son will notice people's enthusiasm as see it as an additional motivation later on. Sadly, as you'd already noticed, many children growing up bilingual in the US will have a phase where they really resist speaking the other language; however, it need not be permanent and forcing things might do more harm than good. Offering carrots might help or doing little things can, too. For example, you could teach a weekly Japanese lesson at his preschool and he could be a helper (passing out papers, etc. if speaking aloud would feel too scary right now.) Maybe seeing others' excitement will help motivate him more!
Many educated, internationally-minded American families dream of their children becoming bilingual; however, the reality is much, much complicated and nuanced. It's not about a one-time, all-or-nothing decision but many little decisions that add up over time. Your bond as a family really should come first and foremost: if that includes formal Japanese study when your son's little, then great! If not, he still can become fluent one day and, regardless, it sounds like he'll always feel a connection one way or another. He can still connect with his relatives who only speak Japanese in non-verbal forms, like showing artwork or making a video, because the love is there. I understand your dilemma because, while I don't have children yet, my partner and I will have the opportunity to raise them to be trilingual. This is extremely hard so we've very realistic about it, and will see what happens. We both know that our main focus will be English and the other languages will be present on the sidelines. As a language educator, I've seen sort of "the best and the worst" in terms of parents' attempts to teach language; I really respect them all because you do the best you can. Do what feels best for your family right now: if that's taking the leap and starting Saturday school, then great! You may be very pleasantly surprised. If it's waiting for a year or even indefinitely, then that's fine, too: there are many ways to learn a language, and you're already providing the cultural background at home. If you have any more questions or want more examples, I'd be happy to answer here or via MeMail. Good luck!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:16 AM on January 18, 2016
I have an extensive background in language acquisition, both on a personal and professional level, and work with language learners every day. I have had Japanese-German-American students who became fluent and successful in all three languages: it's rare but possible, and takes a great deal of familiar motivation and support. (FWIW, based on my own research: while there are Saturday schools that do not lead to fluency, most good German and Japanese ones absolutely can and do lead to true bilingualism.) The students had learning Japanese as their main extracurricular activity but they also did clubs, sports, and more. They alternated going to Germany and Japanese during the summers, and had strong connections to family and friends both places. Having "carrots" like that to look forward to definitely help with motivation. (Their study of German was less formal until high school but they were actually excellent even without the formal schooling.) It seemed like Japanese school was both a great joy (good friends, sleepovers, cultural connections, etc.) but also a LOT of work. One of them remarked how "all those years of Japanese were worth it" when she got to meet Shinji Kagawa and he complimented her on her Japanese speaking ability!
I am bilingual in German and English: I was surrounded by aspects of German-American culture but did not start truly learning beyond hello and good-bye until I was in middle school. Growing up, I was envious of my siblings' fluency (different language) and so badly wanted to be bilingual (with any language!) However, as an adult I have zero regrets for having started later: I have a teeny American accent but I'm also fluent and very educated and have a great love and motivation for the language. (After all, it's my career!) I lived and studied abroad and feel respected and accepted by both US and German culture. The Japanese language and culture is so popular in the US right now: I know of so many teens without Japanese heritage who dream of learning and language and visiting the country. I'm sure your son will notice people's enthusiasm as see it as an additional motivation later on. Sadly, as you'd already noticed, many children growing up bilingual in the US will have a phase where they really resist speaking the other language; however, it need not be permanent and forcing things might do more harm than good. Offering carrots might help or doing little things can, too. For example, you could teach a weekly Japanese lesson at his preschool and he could be a helper (passing out papers, etc. if speaking aloud would feel too scary right now.) Maybe seeing others' excitement will help motivate him more!
Many educated, internationally-minded American families dream of their children becoming bilingual; however, the reality is much, much complicated and nuanced. It's not about a one-time, all-or-nothing decision but many little decisions that add up over time. Your bond as a family really should come first and foremost: if that includes formal Japanese study when your son's little, then great! If not, he still can become fluent one day and, regardless, it sounds like he'll always feel a connection one way or another. He can still connect with his relatives who only speak Japanese in non-verbal forms, like showing artwork or making a video, because the love is there. I understand your dilemma because, while I don't have children yet, my partner and I will have the opportunity to raise them to be trilingual. This is extremely hard so we've very realistic about it, and will see what happens. We both know that our main focus will be English and the other languages will be present on the sidelines. As a language educator, I've seen sort of "the best and the worst" in terms of parents' attempts to teach language; I really respect them all because you do the best you can. Do what feels best for your family right now: if that's taking the leap and starting Saturday school, then great! You may be very pleasantly surprised. If it's waiting for a year or even indefinitely, then that's fine, too: there are many ways to learn a language, and you're already providing the cultural background at home. If you have any more questions or want more examples, I'd be happy to answer here or via MeMail. Good luck!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:16 AM on January 18, 2016
My child goes to OT and sounds like he is the same age as micropanda - stick with the OT!
There's got to be an alternative, right?
My husband went to French Catholic elementary and high school in Egypt, and he is very very fluent. My friends who went to Saturday (insert here) school? Not at all.
We're actually facing this question, but I'm putting it off a bit. I'm hoping there will be some sort of family language class we can find where both me and my son can learn Arabic. Then we can makes Tuesday's "Arabic Day" or similar, where we learn and immerse ourselves all together as a family project. Worse comes to worse, I figured we could start online classes together.
The main difference here is that my Husband isn't terribly close with his extended family, and all his close family speaks English. I want my child to learn his dad's native language for different reasons than yours. Speaking and reading any foreign language is a huge asset, and does great things for how your brain operates. We don't have family cut off from us due to a language barrier. We're more likely to regularly visit local Japanese cultural centers, and will likely rarely/never visit any cultural centers from my husband's region, unless the feature is the people of ancient Kemet.
We were considering French elementary school at one point, but we're moving soon, so logistically that's not feasible.
My direct understanding is that learning Japanese for non-native speakers is a life long pursuit. I think the earlier you start some kind of family-time reinforced language and cultural education the better, but there must be online or non-Saturday options?
I think the OT is crucial if you are seeing a benefit + if this is your only family time together, than that is sacrosanct. 50 years ago, Sunday's were that time, but modern life dictates that day is whatever day works for your family's interests, obligations, and pursuits. It's not like you can ever get the time you spend together having fun back once they grow up, ya know?
I'm not sure if this helps or confuses you. My idea is that there are other ways to inject Japanese culture and language into your child's life - things you could start doing TODAY.
You don't have to take formal classes on Saturdays at the expense of other obligations. Even when I was a kid, some of my friends had Hebrew classes on Tuesdays. There's GOT to be other hands on options in your area. What about a weekly play date with native Japanese speaking families in your neighborhood? Maybe you could even start one?
Thanks for asking this question! I'd sorta put this on the back burner, but you're right, it's a good age to start with something regular. But no, I don't think you should give up OT, which positively impacts your son's daily development and enjoyment, and swap it for something you can give your child in other ways.
posted by jbenben at 9:23 AM on January 18, 2016
There's got to be an alternative, right?
My husband went to French Catholic elementary and high school in Egypt, and he is very very fluent. My friends who went to Saturday (insert here) school? Not at all.
We're actually facing this question, but I'm putting it off a bit. I'm hoping there will be some sort of family language class we can find where both me and my son can learn Arabic. Then we can makes Tuesday's "Arabic Day" or similar, where we learn and immerse ourselves all together as a family project. Worse comes to worse, I figured we could start online classes together.
The main difference here is that my Husband isn't terribly close with his extended family, and all his close family speaks English. I want my child to learn his dad's native language for different reasons than yours. Speaking and reading any foreign language is a huge asset, and does great things for how your brain operates. We don't have family cut off from us due to a language barrier. We're more likely to regularly visit local Japanese cultural centers, and will likely rarely/never visit any cultural centers from my husband's region, unless the feature is the people of ancient Kemet.
We were considering French elementary school at one point, but we're moving soon, so logistically that's not feasible.
My direct understanding is that learning Japanese for non-native speakers is a life long pursuit. I think the earlier you start some kind of family-time reinforced language and cultural education the better, but there must be online or non-Saturday options?
I think the OT is crucial if you are seeing a benefit + if this is your only family time together, than that is sacrosanct. 50 years ago, Sunday's were that time, but modern life dictates that day is whatever day works for your family's interests, obligations, and pursuits. It's not like you can ever get the time you spend together having fun back once they grow up, ya know?
I'm not sure if this helps or confuses you. My idea is that there are other ways to inject Japanese culture and language into your child's life - things you could start doing TODAY.
You don't have to take formal classes on Saturdays at the expense of other obligations. Even when I was a kid, some of my friends had Hebrew classes on Tuesdays. There's GOT to be other hands on options in your area. What about a weekly play date with native Japanese speaking families in your neighborhood? Maybe you could even start one?
Thanks for asking this question! I'd sorta put this on the back burner, but you're right, it's a good age to start with something regular. But no, I don't think you should give up OT, which positively impacts your son's daily development and enjoyment, and swap it for something you can give your child in other ways.
posted by jbenben at 9:23 AM on January 18, 2016
When I first moved to Canada from Hong Kong, my parents enrolled me in Chinese school on Saturdays, from gr. 2 or so all the way through to gr. 12. This is just me, of course, but I definitely didn't love it. You could even say I hated it.
I was growing up in a very Westernized culture, so I didn't have (or seek out) the chance to use the Chinese outside of talking with my family. And having to do dictation tests, and write essays, and the rest of it was stressful -- not hugely so, but definitely a major annoyance. I was pretty good at normal school, but not great at Chinese school, which didn't make me like it more. I made a few friends there, but they weren't close friends, and it was more just to make getting through the Saturdays easier. It was a huge relief when I was finally done.
There were probably a few pro's though. I can't read Chinese save for a few words (like, a dozen or two)... but I wonder if I would have lost even that if I hadn't gone to Chinese school. I was able to speak some Chinese due to having lived in Hong Kong, and kept it up with my family. Not sure if Chinese school contributed at all to that, but it probably didn't hurt. And I have some very dim memories of Chinese history and geography that I guess came from the classes. (Though realistically I could just look it up on Wikipedia now if I really cared, and probably understand it way more.)
(Ironically, in my graduate work, my studies revolved around a feature found in the Chinese language. It was helpful that I could speak it, even if my vocab was pretty minimal. I don't know that Chinese school really helped here though, I feel like I could have managed just as well from talking w/ my family, seeing movies, etc. but there's no way to know for sure.)
One other small benefit is that all those Chinese school classes gave me a TONNE of high school credits. (You need 100 credits to graduate and with Chinese school and all my extra curricular stuff, I think I had close to 175 credits). Having lots of extra credits doesn't mean anything really, but theoretically could look good to a university. And I guess there's an element of learning a work ethic that might be important for you.
I think a lot of it will depend on the child's personal investment in it. I didn't give 2 shits about Chinese school, and was only doing it because my parents made me. But if the child strongly identifies with the culture, or really wants to attain the skill, it could be a positive experience for sure. For instance, I took a lot of French (mostly by choice) in grade school and high school, and enjoyed that far more, actually sometimes tried to listen to French radio, was sort of excited to try to use French in Quebec / France, etc.
posted by miss_kitty_fantastico at 9:46 AM on January 18, 2016
I was growing up in a very Westernized culture, so I didn't have (or seek out) the chance to use the Chinese outside of talking with my family. And having to do dictation tests, and write essays, and the rest of it was stressful -- not hugely so, but definitely a major annoyance. I was pretty good at normal school, but not great at Chinese school, which didn't make me like it more. I made a few friends there, but they weren't close friends, and it was more just to make getting through the Saturdays easier. It was a huge relief when I was finally done.
There were probably a few pro's though. I can't read Chinese save for a few words (like, a dozen or two)... but I wonder if I would have lost even that if I hadn't gone to Chinese school. I was able to speak some Chinese due to having lived in Hong Kong, and kept it up with my family. Not sure if Chinese school contributed at all to that, but it probably didn't hurt. And I have some very dim memories of Chinese history and geography that I guess came from the classes. (Though realistically I could just look it up on Wikipedia now if I really cared, and probably understand it way more.)
(Ironically, in my graduate work, my studies revolved around a feature found in the Chinese language. It was helpful that I could speak it, even if my vocab was pretty minimal. I don't know that Chinese school really helped here though, I feel like I could have managed just as well from talking w/ my family, seeing movies, etc. but there's no way to know for sure.)
One other small benefit is that all those Chinese school classes gave me a TONNE of high school credits. (You need 100 credits to graduate and with Chinese school and all my extra curricular stuff, I think I had close to 175 credits). Having lots of extra credits doesn't mean anything really, but theoretically could look good to a university. And I guess there's an element of learning a work ethic that might be important for you.
I think a lot of it will depend on the child's personal investment in it. I didn't give 2 shits about Chinese school, and was only doing it because my parents made me. But if the child strongly identifies with the culture, or really wants to attain the skill, it could be a positive experience for sure. For instance, I took a lot of French (mostly by choice) in grade school and high school, and enjoyed that far more, actually sometimes tried to listen to French radio, was sort of excited to try to use French in Quebec / France, etc.
posted by miss_kitty_fantastico at 9:46 AM on January 18, 2016
When I was a kid I went to Saturday school for Urdu. I didn't go for that long (maybe until grade 2 or 3) and my parents spoke English at home so it never really stuck. I can understand it but can't read and can barely speak. From what I've seen of friends is that the language spoken at home matters much more than the Saturday school, but that the Saturday school is still useful.
My wife teaches at a Japanese Saturday school and our daughter started going this year (she turned 4 in November). She also started regular kindergarten this year. She enjoys both regular school as well as her Saturday school but enjoys the Japanese school more. At home she mostly spoke Japanese until this fall when English came on in a big way because of school. For us it is important that she speaks Japanese because half of her relatives are in Japan and they don't speak English.
It hasn't had a big impact on our Saturdays because the school ends at 12:30 so there is still time to do other things. It does mean we can't go on weekend trips, but we wouldn't have been able to anyway because my wife is teaching there too.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 9:56 AM on January 18, 2016
My wife teaches at a Japanese Saturday school and our daughter started going this year (she turned 4 in November). She also started regular kindergarten this year. She enjoys both regular school as well as her Saturday school but enjoys the Japanese school more. At home she mostly spoke Japanese until this fall when English came on in a big way because of school. For us it is important that she speaks Japanese because half of her relatives are in Japan and they don't speak English.
It hasn't had a big impact on our Saturdays because the school ends at 12:30 so there is still time to do other things. It does mean we can't go on weekend trips, but we wouldn't have been able to anyway because my wife is teaching there too.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 9:56 AM on January 18, 2016
My spouse is Japanese; I'm American. I speak Japanese tolerably well (or I used to, anyway; we've been back in the US for 20-odd years). My spouse still speaks Japanese most of the time.
We sent our kid (now 20) to Japanese Saturday school through about 5th or 6th grade. He's more-or-less bilingual, and he claims to be able to read Japanese better than I can.
The schools he attended used materials approved by the Japanese education ministry (or some such); my understanding is that they're designed for children of Japanese nationals working abroad who are not part of the elite and who are probably going to move back to Japan eventually -- apparently, they do a tolerable job of keeping the kids up to speed so that they can survive in regular Japanese schools if necessary.
I've never met any kids who went through the whole elementary/middle/high-school program, so I don't know how that works out, but a lot of kids who aren't moving back to Japan in the foreseeable future seem to get fed up with all that extra work and manipulate their parents into letting them drop out. That's what our kid did.
posted by spacewrench at 10:02 AM on January 18, 2016
We sent our kid (now 20) to Japanese Saturday school through about 5th or 6th grade. He's more-or-less bilingual, and he claims to be able to read Japanese better than I can.
The schools he attended used materials approved by the Japanese education ministry (or some such); my understanding is that they're designed for children of Japanese nationals working abroad who are not part of the elite and who are probably going to move back to Japan eventually -- apparently, they do a tolerable job of keeping the kids up to speed so that they can survive in regular Japanese schools if necessary.
I've never met any kids who went through the whole elementary/middle/high-school program, so I don't know how that works out, but a lot of kids who aren't moving back to Japan in the foreseeable future seem to get fed up with all that extra work and manipulate their parents into letting them drop out. That's what our kid did.
posted by spacewrench at 10:02 AM on January 18, 2016
I took 11 years of ukrainian Saturday school (9an-12pm until middle school, then 9-1pm hs).
I didn't like it once I hit hs, but I appreciated the ultimate goal. Without it I would be verbally fluent (but at a much lower comprehension level), but I don't think I'd be able to read or write, my parents did not have the time to teach me.
In the hs classes, when it was more focused on literature, history and writting essays many kids dropped it to make time for sports. (I usually took the fall off from sat. school to do track, making up the work which sucked)
It is easier to learn as a small child than it is to learn to read and write when you are older.
In my case, I haven't used it as much as I would like to make it quite worth it, but I'm glad I did it and am functionally bilingual (ie can read and write well enough for business work)
posted by larthegreat at 10:07 AM on January 18, 2016
I didn't like it once I hit hs, but I appreciated the ultimate goal. Without it I would be verbally fluent (but at a much lower comprehension level), but I don't think I'd be able to read or write, my parents did not have the time to teach me.
In the hs classes, when it was more focused on literature, history and writting essays many kids dropped it to make time for sports. (I usually took the fall off from sat. school to do track, making up the work which sucked)
It is easier to learn as a small child than it is to learn to read and write when you are older.
In my case, I haven't used it as much as I would like to make it quite worth it, but I'm glad I did it and am functionally bilingual (ie can read and write well enough for business work)
posted by larthegreat at 10:07 AM on January 18, 2016
Thanks to all those who have answered thus far, and please keep it coming. From a cultural perspective, this school is definitely *the* school that the Japanese kids in our area go to. I don't think there's much in the way of weekday evening alternatives. The school is geared towards the children of Japanese nationals working abroad, though they do also have a fair number of kids of mixed heritage.
In terms of encouraging Japanese usage in the home, we have lots of Japanese storybooks floating around (I can read these fluently enough). We listen to Japanese songs, and (ok, with the recent exception of Star Wars) the weekly dose of TV is in Japanese (Totoro, Ponyo, Anpanman). However, when we try to speak to Micropanda in Japanese, he tends to grump that "You're speaking too much Japanese!"
I think the trickiest thing for me to balance about Micropanda's anxiety is that he gets anxious about *anything* that is unfamiliar or that he perceives will be difficult. This is a personality trait that we are gently trying to help him handle better. In a perfect world, he'd become less anxious about Japanese as he became more familiar with it, but we sort of have a chicken-and-egg problem.
posted by telepanda at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2016
In terms of encouraging Japanese usage in the home, we have lots of Japanese storybooks floating around (I can read these fluently enough). We listen to Japanese songs, and (ok, with the recent exception of Star Wars) the weekly dose of TV is in Japanese (Totoro, Ponyo, Anpanman). However, when we try to speak to Micropanda in Japanese, he tends to grump that "You're speaking too much Japanese!"
I think the trickiest thing for me to balance about Micropanda's anxiety is that he gets anxious about *anything* that is unfamiliar or that he perceives will be difficult. This is a personality trait that we are gently trying to help him handle better. In a perfect world, he'd become less anxious about Japanese as he became more familiar with it, but we sort of have a chicken-and-egg problem.
posted by telepanda at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2016
If both parents speak Japanese, then you can and should speak Japanese to each other, not just to the kid.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:20 AM on January 18, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:20 AM on January 18, 2016
Hello! I am on the 理事会 (board of directors) of my local 補習校, where my wife is a teacher and our two grade-school-age children attend. School runs from 9:00 am to noon on Saturdays. We have been raising the children bilingual in Japanese and English since their births. I am (mostly) the English-speaking parent and Mrs. Tanizaki is (mostly) the Japanese-speaking. We spoke last year, and all of that advice still applies.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that Japanese school is not to teach the children to speak Japanese. As a member of my Japanese school's board, the most important thing that we stress is that we only get the students for three hours a week. That means Mom and Dad are responsible for the other 165. Japanese school assumes that the students speak Japanese at an grade-appropriate level. Mostly, Japanese school is to teach reading and writing. So the most important thing you can do is speak Japanese at home. And, we also stress speaking in complete sentences e.g. saying ご飯ができましたよ! instead of ご飯よ! Like spacewrench wrote, the school is intended for Japanese nationals who are abroad temporarily to help ensure that their kids don't fall behind in their Japanese. The majority of our students are Japanese citizens who were born and raised in Japan but happen to find themselves in the US for a few years because of their parent's job transfer. There are already proficient native speakers.
So, even though Japanese school is just a few hours on Saturday morning, there is enough homework that some homework needs to be done every day, much as V'Ger wrote. Every day, my kids are practicing writing kanji, answering comprehension questions in their readers, or writing compositions. This is from Grade 1, by the way. Luckily, both Mrs. Tanizaki and I are fluent speakers who have adult literacy in Japanese, but it can be tough if only one parent can help with homework. But, I highly recommend that you be English Parent and your husband be Japanese Parent. As in, if my children speak English to my wife, she says, 何ゆってるかわからへん。ママの言葉でゆいなさい。("I don't know what you're saying. Use Mama's words"). If he gets conversation proficiency, it will be because he acquired it at home, not Japanese school. So, you don't need Japanese school for Micropanda to be a native speaker of Japanese but there's a very good chance he'll be illiterate without it because 2,136 kanji are a lot to learn at home without years of serious regimentation.
Ultimately, as I've said here before, you can't make anyone learn another language, so don't get too disappointed if Micropanda ends up not becoming a native speaker (this window is closing soon, btw). He might learn it later, he might not. That said, my wife and I sure as hell do everything we can to encourage our kids to be Japanese speakers. So far it is working but who is to say what tomorrow will bring.
I don't have anything of value to say about giving up the OT for Japanese school, so I will leave that to other commenters.
posted by Tanizaki at 11:13 AM on January 18, 2016
The most important thing to keep in mind is that Japanese school is not to teach the children to speak Japanese. As a member of my Japanese school's board, the most important thing that we stress is that we only get the students for three hours a week. That means Mom and Dad are responsible for the other 165. Japanese school assumes that the students speak Japanese at an grade-appropriate level. Mostly, Japanese school is to teach reading and writing. So the most important thing you can do is speak Japanese at home. And, we also stress speaking in complete sentences e.g. saying ご飯ができましたよ! instead of ご飯よ! Like spacewrench wrote, the school is intended for Japanese nationals who are abroad temporarily to help ensure that their kids don't fall behind in their Japanese. The majority of our students are Japanese citizens who were born and raised in Japan but happen to find themselves in the US for a few years because of their parent's job transfer. There are already proficient native speakers.
So, even though Japanese school is just a few hours on Saturday morning, there is enough homework that some homework needs to be done every day, much as V'Ger wrote. Every day, my kids are practicing writing kanji, answering comprehension questions in their readers, or writing compositions. This is from Grade 1, by the way. Luckily, both Mrs. Tanizaki and I are fluent speakers who have adult literacy in Japanese, but it can be tough if only one parent can help with homework. But, I highly recommend that you be English Parent and your husband be Japanese Parent. As in, if my children speak English to my wife, she says, 何ゆってるかわからへん。ママの言葉でゆいなさい。("I don't know what you're saying. Use Mama's words"). If he gets conversation proficiency, it will be because he acquired it at home, not Japanese school. So, you don't need Japanese school for Micropanda to be a native speaker of Japanese but there's a very good chance he'll be illiterate without it because 2,136 kanji are a lot to learn at home without years of serious regimentation.
Ultimately, as I've said here before, you can't make anyone learn another language, so don't get too disappointed if Micropanda ends up not becoming a native speaker (this window is closing soon, btw). He might learn it later, he might not. That said, my wife and I sure as hell do everything we can to encourage our kids to be Japanese speakers. So far it is working but who is to say what tomorrow will bring.
I don't have anything of value to say about giving up the OT for Japanese school, so I will leave that to other commenters.
posted by Tanizaki at 11:13 AM on January 18, 2016
I was really unhappy being enrolled in Chinese classes when I was 6 or 7, and my parents let me stop after a while. Maybe it's why I have an aversion to learning Chinese now even though I love learning languages.
Around the same age, I was enrolled in piano classes, for 8 years. I think the difference was the environment (my piano teacher was nice and the class comfortable) and the instant payoff of learning an instrument. With language, the hardest stage is the beginning.
posted by kinoeye at 11:25 AM on January 18, 2016
Around the same age, I was enrolled in piano classes, for 8 years. I think the difference was the environment (my piano teacher was nice and the class comfortable) and the instant payoff of learning an instrument. With language, the hardest stage is the beginning.
posted by kinoeye at 11:25 AM on January 18, 2016
Ymmv, but everyone I know who speaks their parents/one parents/their families not-English language in the US as an adult had parents who only spoke that language at home.
The school did very little, comparatively. But even the kids who didn't go to school still speak the language as adults if their parents did at home.
The only other thing that worked is immersion schools. I somehow have a lot of friends in my mid 20s who speak a second language, and that was the case like 19/20 times or close to it.
posted by emptythought at 12:19 PM on January 18, 2016
The school did very little, comparatively. But even the kids who didn't go to school still speak the language as adults if their parents did at home.
The only other thing that worked is immersion schools. I somehow have a lot of friends in my mid 20s who speak a second language, and that was the case like 19/20 times or close to it.
posted by emptythought at 12:19 PM on January 18, 2016
I did the Hebrew day school thing, and became fluent because I have a natural aptitude. Of my five siblings who went, only one other could probably speak it if she had to.
There was one year where I had to do it after school because I was moved to a public school and I needed one more year for my bat mitzvah. It was a complete waste of time and I learned nothing. But it was right near my grandparents house, so we worked it out that my grandfather would come and get me, I would have dinner with them and then they would drive me home. I came to really cherish that one on one time with them and as an adult, now that they have passed on, I am very grateful that I have those extra memories.
posted by JoannaC at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2016
There was one year where I had to do it after school because I was moved to a public school and I needed one more year for my bat mitzvah. It was a complete waste of time and I learned nothing. But it was right near my grandparents house, so we worked it out that my grandfather would come and get me, I would have dinner with them and then they would drive me home. I came to really cherish that one on one time with them and as an adult, now that they have passed on, I am very grateful that I have those extra memories.
posted by JoannaC at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2016
The protective part of me is screaming that it's a terrible idea to take away something that has been such a big positive influence and replace it with something that will press every anxiety button he has.
I don't have an opinion about this because every kid and situation is different but I think this is a 'listen to the little voices' situation. Security and self-esteem and happiness and family connectedness are secondary to learning pretty much anything, almost. In another case, it might be a great idea. In this case, sounds like you don't think so and I think you should trust your instincts.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:25 PM on January 18, 2016
I don't have an opinion about this because every kid and situation is different but I think this is a 'listen to the little voices' situation. Security and self-esteem and happiness and family connectedness are secondary to learning pretty much anything, almost. In another case, it might be a great idea. In this case, sounds like you don't think so and I think you should trust your instincts.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:25 PM on January 18, 2016
Based on what you said in your follow-up, it sounds like the Japanese school is the way to go. The question is more about timing: how about visiting it with your son and giving him the (limited) choice of "Do you want to start this year or do you want to start next year?" It gives him some power but it also gives you power. It sounds like the sense of community will be very beneficial: he'll see other kids who are Japanese/of mixed heritage and hear their parents speaking Japanese, so he could see how normal (and cool!) it can be. (FWIW, the students I talked about above are also of mixed heritage and they apparently excelled.) Despite being a non-Japanese-speaker, I am very familiar with the type of school you're talking about and, again, can attest to its ability to help make students fluent-speakers. I know what others are talking about when they share their less successful experiences but your school is different and can truly yield the results you desire. From experience I know full-day or partial immersion schools can be amazing but are not perfect as one would like; for example, students may speak fluently but lack a mastery of proper grammar. It all depends!
As for the anxiety, you know your son best: sometimes it's better to not pressure kids and give them time, and sometimes just making kids do stuff they don't want to is the ideal solution. I don't know if you're being overly cautious or rightfully cautious but if you've got a team of helpers, including OT, it sounds like you're absolutely on the right path. For now, I'd give Micropanda -- and yourself -- a break and revisit the question a year from now.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:34 PM on January 18, 2016
As for the anxiety, you know your son best: sometimes it's better to not pressure kids and give them time, and sometimes just making kids do stuff they don't want to is the ideal solution. I don't know if you're being overly cautious or rightfully cautious but if you've got a team of helpers, including OT, it sounds like you're absolutely on the right path. For now, I'd give Micropanda -- and yourself -- a break and revisit the question a year from now.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:34 PM on January 18, 2016
My two cents, from a Chinese-American kid who had two Chinese-speaking parents, went to weekend language school from age 5 to 13, studied Chinese formally in high school and college, including a semester abroad, and STILL could not read a Chinese newspaper without google translator at my side:
Don't do it. Your son will inevitably be behind the other students, who have natural fluency from their Japanese parents. This is enough to frustrate even the most mature of 5-year-olds, let alone an anxious one. And the returns will be extremely limited, without considerable investment outside of the class hours itself.
If fluency for your son is truly a priority, consider hiring a private tutor or nanny. Skype lessons are also a great economic option. As your son gets older, he can decide for himself if he wants to devote time to it--Japanese is a common enough language that he'll have other opportunities to learn.
posted by tinymegalo at 1:38 PM on January 18, 2016
Don't do it. Your son will inevitably be behind the other students, who have natural fluency from their Japanese parents. This is enough to frustrate even the most mature of 5-year-olds, let alone an anxious one. And the returns will be extremely limited, without considerable investment outside of the class hours itself.
If fluency for your son is truly a priority, consider hiring a private tutor or nanny. Skype lessons are also a great economic option. As your son gets older, he can decide for himself if he wants to devote time to it--Japanese is a common enough language that he'll have other opportunities to learn.
posted by tinymegalo at 1:38 PM on January 18, 2016
OT on Saturday mornings? I wouldn't be giving that up without a fight. I completely understand that internal struggle between accommodating your child's anxiety and wanting to have a "normal" schedule, not wanting to shelter him from mildly stressful yet ultimately beneficial experience. It's a tough call.
posted by bluebelle at 2:44 PM on January 18, 2016
posted by bluebelle at 2:44 PM on January 18, 2016
Wondering... is the hoshūkō age cutoff that strict? Would it be possible (since he's not US-kindergarten age yet) to do the ideal -- let him continue Saturday OT for a year, *then* try entering at Japanese kindergarten level? I know you stated you can't kick the can further down the road, but at least kindergarten teachers themselves would love having some slightly more mature boys sprinkled in with the student group, for a bit more ease of instruction and fewer headaches... (OK, totally projecting from brief experience as an assistant K teacher. There is such a world of difference between even the first day and a few months later.)
If it's possible, it could be good: as you all still attend to those therapeutic benefits, he grows and learns more coping skills, you+partner can establish more language-infusion at home, and once next year rolls around, he has a bit of a leg-up in maturity, even if he is surrounded (initially) by kids who speak more natively. The language intimidation factor -- which, still, with weekly practice and daily language-related rituals at home, would subside -- could be mitigated by slight age-related confidence.
In essence, not a parent but: I would lean more toward continuing OT for a year, still inquiring directly about this birthday-cutoff thing. Then see how he is later, even if it ends up he does have to jump in at 1st grade. (Because, hypothetically, what if you just moved to the area at that time anyway?)
Big YMMV, but personally:
My mom was native Japanese (dad was American/not-native). We didn't go to hoshūkō because (it seemed like?) it was never available around our cities. I spent total 3 elementary school years in U.S. public school, and the other 3 in American international schools in east Asia (not Japan), with maybe an hour or so of Mandarin-language classes per day. I actually got pretty good at Chinese and levelled up in school after a few months. (Maybe because it was lots of workbook exercises, which didn't make me anxious like "group activities" or whatev.) I didn't retain much once we moved, but I took an intro Mandarin course in college and had lots of nostalgia and great memory-breakthroughs, definitely a leg-up initially amongst my peers. (And, as an adult, it was fun!)
I was also an extremely "sensitive" child (got "painfully shy" written as teacher's comments all the way through) and had a lot of anxiety about socializing @ school, no matter where we lived, as class sizes went from 14 to 30.
But...
Totally, *totally* wish I'd gotten to go to Japanese weekend school. The feeling really kicked in after I turned 18, when I realized I *could* have been bilingual with more exposure and rigor (I understood what my mom said in Japanese, but always responded in English without a thought, and my mom ended up using mostly English because of my brothers and dad). Or I just could have experienced a lot of cultural rituals that I had no real understanding of (I realized this when I met more Japanese people who weren't... my mom). I ended up studying Japanese in university, then living in Kansai as an adult, but it was/is a hard fight to keep up (linguistically, socially, etc). My brothers, neither of whom bothered studying on their own, know maybe 10 food-related vocabulary and that's it. After four years I went from smiling and nodding at my Japanese uncle's long-windedness to actually understanding, engaging, and joking around with him. But when my brothers visited, they didn't even know how to say "arigatou gozaimasu" to their own aunt and uncle -- totally oblivious/froze up. (Obvs they are not your child, but just anecdata.) Even if they never ended up pursuing Japan as a deep interest, they would have remembered *that much* from hoshūkō, right?
In my 20s, I met some peers who had gone to Saturday school, and while some admitted they didn't like going (especially middle school on), they generally seemed glad they got to go, and had pretty good pronunciation/conversational flair. I wonder if it also just depended on the openness and fun/caring environment of the particular school, but in all these individual cases, having gone seemed like a benefit.
Plus what was I even doing those Saturday mornings? My parents were busy and we kids just ended up watching TV, ha. And no matter what extracurricular/weekend class or sport activity I would (be made to) participate in, I felt really isolated/weirdo, even when it was in my native English, on home American turf. I ended up really taking to musical instruments and learning foreign languages. The language in which the activity was taught, in the end, would have not mattered after a while. Kids really, truly learn quickly. Language is a tool, the activity/hobby/environment/interaction leaves more of an impression.
posted by cluebucket at 3:52 PM on January 18, 2016
If it's possible, it could be good: as you all still attend to those therapeutic benefits, he grows and learns more coping skills, you+partner can establish more language-infusion at home, and once next year rolls around, he has a bit of a leg-up in maturity, even if he is surrounded (initially) by kids who speak more natively. The language intimidation factor -- which, still, with weekly practice and daily language-related rituals at home, would subside -- could be mitigated by slight age-related confidence.
In essence, not a parent but: I would lean more toward continuing OT for a year, still inquiring directly about this birthday-cutoff thing. Then see how he is later, even if it ends up he does have to jump in at 1st grade. (Because, hypothetically, what if you just moved to the area at that time anyway?)
Big YMMV, but personally:
My mom was native Japanese (dad was American/not-native). We didn't go to hoshūkō because (it seemed like?) it was never available around our cities. I spent total 3 elementary school years in U.S. public school, and the other 3 in American international schools in east Asia (not Japan), with maybe an hour or so of Mandarin-language classes per day. I actually got pretty good at Chinese and levelled up in school after a few months. (Maybe because it was lots of workbook exercises, which didn't make me anxious like "group activities" or whatev.) I didn't retain much once we moved, but I took an intro Mandarin course in college and had lots of nostalgia and great memory-breakthroughs, definitely a leg-up initially amongst my peers. (And, as an adult, it was fun!)
I was also an extremely "sensitive" child (got "painfully shy" written as teacher's comments all the way through) and had a lot of anxiety about socializing @ school, no matter where we lived, as class sizes went from 14 to 30.
But...
Totally, *totally* wish I'd gotten to go to Japanese weekend school. The feeling really kicked in after I turned 18, when I realized I *could* have been bilingual with more exposure and rigor (I understood what my mom said in Japanese, but always responded in English without a thought, and my mom ended up using mostly English because of my brothers and dad). Or I just could have experienced a lot of cultural rituals that I had no real understanding of (I realized this when I met more Japanese people who weren't... my mom). I ended up studying Japanese in university, then living in Kansai as an adult, but it was/is a hard fight to keep up (linguistically, socially, etc). My brothers, neither of whom bothered studying on their own, know maybe 10 food-related vocabulary and that's it. After four years I went from smiling and nodding at my Japanese uncle's long-windedness to actually understanding, engaging, and joking around with him. But when my brothers visited, they didn't even know how to say "arigatou gozaimasu" to their own aunt and uncle -- totally oblivious/froze up. (Obvs they are not your child, but just anecdata.) Even if they never ended up pursuing Japan as a deep interest, they would have remembered *that much* from hoshūkō, right?
In my 20s, I met some peers who had gone to Saturday school, and while some admitted they didn't like going (especially middle school on), they generally seemed glad they got to go, and had pretty good pronunciation/conversational flair. I wonder if it also just depended on the openness and fun/caring environment of the particular school, but in all these individual cases, having gone seemed like a benefit.
Plus what was I even doing those Saturday mornings? My parents were busy and we kids just ended up watching TV, ha. And no matter what extracurricular/weekend class or sport activity I would (be made to) participate in, I felt really isolated/weirdo, even when it was in my native English, on home American turf. I ended up really taking to musical instruments and learning foreign languages. The language in which the activity was taught, in the end, would have not mattered after a while. Kids really, truly learn quickly. Language is a tool, the activity/hobby/environment/interaction leaves more of an impression.
posted by cluebucket at 3:52 PM on January 18, 2016
I'm a teacher at a weekend/after-school English school overseas and have had similar jobs in other non-English speaking countries for a decade. Here are a few things we do that help students actually be able to use the written language in a nuanced way that, hopefully, can at least start to match their levels of literacy in their first languages, and things you may consider doing in addition to Japanese school - or perhaps in place of it.
- From the earliest age and the lowest level, what literate students are writing is intended to go somewhere other than the teacher; it is a text and has an audience and a purpose. Would your son be expected to simply hand in a page of copied characters to the teacher, or would he create things to be consumed by others? We get students in primary school (anywhere from ages 6-12) to, for example, create poems about the seasons, draw comics with English captions, write a journal about their weeks, give presentations on what they're reading or watching (even if that material is not in English!), compose short stories, write age-appropriate letters and e-mails, create public-awareness campaign posters, and much, much more. Obviously, the character-learning issue is not present in English, but years spent "learning" a (written) language but then not doing anything with it other than homework to be marked by a teacher would make many people feel demotivated. He, like anyone else, needs a reason to write.
- Our school has a set curriculum which matches what we know students are doing in their local schools to reinforce their learning and make things achievable. It sounds like this would be happening if your son was, like many students there, going to Japan, but there might be quite a mismatch between what happens at his school wherever you are and at Japanese school. It's worth, if it's possible, finding resources that he can access that link his Japanese school with what he does in his normal school. Age-appropriate science, math, history, or other books, as he ages, will help him explain the world around him and deepen his understanding of how the language works.
- On a related point, my students are bilingual and biliterate in the topics they enjoy and are good at, and at the same time they really struggle to have any sort of written fluency beyond the basics in subjects they've never covered very deeply in English. Many of my teen students, despite their very advanced knowledge of grammar, have never done a civics course, and sex education isn't offered in many schools here, so doing activities that really draw upon their subject knowledge in English in these areas, like having a debate on gender equality or conducting a mock trial in class, is hard because they lack the vocabulary they probably have already picked up in their first language. Even if I could fit forty or fifty new words into a three-hour lesson it wouldn't be enough for them to pick it up and use it, or recall those words later without serious revision, which sadly they don't have time for now that they're in secondary school. So for your son, consider the value of expanding the range of written Japanese available for him to read in your home as much as possible. Perhaps set a goal of having a bilingual library by the time he's 8/10/15/whatever, so he can build on literacy skills even when he's not in class.
- We constantly hold reading events/competitions and there's a semester-long reward program for primary-school-aged children to get stickers/stationary/prizes for reading as much as they can.
- We help teach students to use some sort of staged-repetition cards/software from an early age for remembering new vocabulary, especially since most students here don't have a language related to English as their first language. You and your son could, for example, enter new words together on an iPad using Quizlet or some other similar software and play games to remember what things sound like or mean. Five is pretty young for this, but as he gets older and the language gets more complex he'll need to have the basics down if he wants to make progress, and as many have said, three hours a week isn't much. A paper/card set you both create might also be easier but thousands of pieces of paper can get messy.
- Digital literacy in English is something we help students with as well, using iPads to create short videos and collaborating on Google Docs. I'm not sure what typing in Japanese is like but it's worth helping him with this overtly as he get older since he may not have the chance if his Japanese school is low-tech.
Hope this helps!
posted by mdonley at 4:35 PM on January 18, 2016
- From the earliest age and the lowest level, what literate students are writing is intended to go somewhere other than the teacher; it is a text and has an audience and a purpose. Would your son be expected to simply hand in a page of copied characters to the teacher, or would he create things to be consumed by others? We get students in primary school (anywhere from ages 6-12) to, for example, create poems about the seasons, draw comics with English captions, write a journal about their weeks, give presentations on what they're reading or watching (even if that material is not in English!), compose short stories, write age-appropriate letters and e-mails, create public-awareness campaign posters, and much, much more. Obviously, the character-learning issue is not present in English, but years spent "learning" a (written) language but then not doing anything with it other than homework to be marked by a teacher would make many people feel demotivated. He, like anyone else, needs a reason to write.
- Our school has a set curriculum which matches what we know students are doing in their local schools to reinforce their learning and make things achievable. It sounds like this would be happening if your son was, like many students there, going to Japan, but there might be quite a mismatch between what happens at his school wherever you are and at Japanese school. It's worth, if it's possible, finding resources that he can access that link his Japanese school with what he does in his normal school. Age-appropriate science, math, history, or other books, as he ages, will help him explain the world around him and deepen his understanding of how the language works.
- On a related point, my students are bilingual and biliterate in the topics they enjoy and are good at, and at the same time they really struggle to have any sort of written fluency beyond the basics in subjects they've never covered very deeply in English. Many of my teen students, despite their very advanced knowledge of grammar, have never done a civics course, and sex education isn't offered in many schools here, so doing activities that really draw upon their subject knowledge in English in these areas, like having a debate on gender equality or conducting a mock trial in class, is hard because they lack the vocabulary they probably have already picked up in their first language. Even if I could fit forty or fifty new words into a three-hour lesson it wouldn't be enough for them to pick it up and use it, or recall those words later without serious revision, which sadly they don't have time for now that they're in secondary school. So for your son, consider the value of expanding the range of written Japanese available for him to read in your home as much as possible. Perhaps set a goal of having a bilingual library by the time he's 8/10/15/whatever, so he can build on literacy skills even when he's not in class.
- We constantly hold reading events/competitions and there's a semester-long reward program for primary-school-aged children to get stickers/stationary/prizes for reading as much as they can.
- We help teach students to use some sort of staged-repetition cards/software from an early age for remembering new vocabulary, especially since most students here don't have a language related to English as their first language. You and your son could, for example, enter new words together on an iPad using Quizlet or some other similar software and play games to remember what things sound like or mean. Five is pretty young for this, but as he gets older and the language gets more complex he'll need to have the basics down if he wants to make progress, and as many have said, three hours a week isn't much. A paper/card set you both create might also be easier but thousands of pieces of paper can get messy.
- Digital literacy in English is something we help students with as well, using iPads to create short videos and collaborating on Google Docs. I'm not sure what typing in Japanese is like but it's worth helping him with this overtly as he get older since he may not have the chance if his Japanese school is low-tech.
Hope this helps!
posted by mdonley at 4:35 PM on January 18, 2016
Whatever you decide, one thing that might help is for your Japanese speaking partner to take on more of the parenting, and to do it in Japanese.
Social reproduction is so often considered to be the woman's domain by default but this does not necessarily need to be the case.
Also, maybe some of the relatives in Japan could learn English. Not the first-considered option for sure but possible. :)
posted by Mistress at 4:47 PM on January 18, 2016
Social reproduction is so often considered to be the woman's domain by default but this does not necessarily need to be the case.
Also, maybe some of the relatives in Japan could learn English. Not the first-considered option for sure but possible. :)
posted by Mistress at 4:47 PM on January 18, 2016
Here's an anecdotal perspective from French speaking Africa.
I grew up speaking French at home because that's what our parents spoke to us children even though they shared a common native tongue. Although I understood their/our native language, and spoke a little, I was never able to have meaningful conversations with my grand-parents. In retrospect, I would have traded quite a few Saturdays to be able to achieve that. They're long gone now but I still feel that being estranged from one's roots is a big loss.
Fast forward many years, and the missus and I hired a maid-cum-nanny specifically so she could speak the native language to our kid. Said kid understands it well but doesn't speak the native language because we speak French at home. Nevertheless, I think at least she's got the connection to the language and culture and has the foundation to explore further as she grows up.
Throw in a major added benefit of being bilingual, in the way it improves one's cognitive skills and expand one's horizon, and I'm all for sending your child to Japanese school.
posted by Kwadeng at 9:57 PM on January 18, 2016
I grew up speaking French at home because that's what our parents spoke to us children even though they shared a common native tongue. Although I understood their/our native language, and spoke a little, I was never able to have meaningful conversations with my grand-parents. In retrospect, I would have traded quite a few Saturdays to be able to achieve that. They're long gone now but I still feel that being estranged from one's roots is a big loss.
Fast forward many years, and the missus and I hired a maid-cum-nanny specifically so she could speak the native language to our kid. Said kid understands it well but doesn't speak the native language because we speak French at home. Nevertheless, I think at least she's got the connection to the language and culture and has the foundation to explore further as she grows up.
Throw in a major added benefit of being bilingual, in the way it improves one's cognitive skills and expand one's horizon, and I'm all for sending your child to Japanese school.
posted by Kwadeng at 9:57 PM on January 18, 2016
I went to Saturday Chinese school up through 6th grade, when I convinced my parents to let me stop. My writing has basically atrophied to nothing; as for reading, well, only the basics remain. But even so I probably have more facility than most of the ABCs in my cohort. I speak a blend of Mandarin and English with my parents; my accent is pretty good but I can feel my speaking ability atrophying with disuse as of late.
My younger sister had the benefit of going to schools with daily Chinese classes, so her knowledge is much better. Part of the reason I wanted to quit is because the learning materials were aimed at younger kids -- it seems petty now but that was my reality. If I could do it over, I probably would have done better starting earlier and with a faster pace, but there weren't so many options at the time.
Was it worth it? Definitely. Even if I can't read/write much now, I feel like I have a decent foundation to build on. Maybe I will get back to it after I achieve JLPT2...
posted by Standard Orange at 10:24 PM on January 18, 2016
My younger sister had the benefit of going to schools with daily Chinese classes, so her knowledge is much better. Part of the reason I wanted to quit is because the learning materials were aimed at younger kids -- it seems petty now but that was my reality. If I could do it over, I probably would have done better starting earlier and with a faster pace, but there weren't so many options at the time.
Was it worth it? Definitely. Even if I can't read/write much now, I feel like I have a decent foundation to build on. Maybe I will get back to it after I achieve JLPT2...
posted by Standard Orange at 10:24 PM on January 18, 2016
Nth-ing everything about about it being totally necessary to speak the language at home (or have some other outlet to practice through, or at least some sort of motivation) in order to retain anything.
My cousins and I actually conducted an informal survey among ourselves about this a few years back: among the ~20 of us CBCs, all adults now, there was a wide range of different language education experiences:
a) Spoke Cantonese at home, went to Mandarin weekend school (i.e. me)
b) Spoke Cantonese at home, went to Cantonese weekend school
c) Spoke Cantonese at home, no weekend school
d) Spoke English at home, went to "Chinese Immersion (??)" school and semi-regularly spent summers in China in their teens
All of us have at least semi-reasonable verbal skills in the language we spoke at home (and by "spoke at home", I also mean listening to the radio, watching the 6 o'clock news, watching shitty HK soap operas, etc). None of us can really read or write, except for two women who learned in their teens solely to be able to follow the tabloids and read articles about like, Andy Lau and stuff. What I'm saying is, we all had forces external to the weekend language classes that pushed us to get to whatever ability we have now. It was hard to judge the abilities of those in the last category: they basically only used their Mandarin to speak with my grandparents (which they could! and my grandparents were very happy about it! so mission accomplished, I guess, though that particular branch of the family had more money to throw at the problem).
Thinking back on my own experience, ugh, I have a lot of complicated feelings around it. Looking back, my particular school was not very well run, and after maybe 3 or 4 years I had learned everything I was ever going to learn there, and spent the remaining 5 years slacking off at the back of the class with everyone else who had given up. But, it did put me in an environment where pretty much everyone was "like me" to some degree (from a cultural background perspective), which I think was valuable, and it has thus far given me enough of a base in grammar and vocabulary to (very) minimally function in Mandarin. On the other hand, the whole experience basically put me off further education in Chinese (high school or university classes), which is really unfortunate.
posted by btfreek at 11:17 PM on January 18, 2016
My cousins and I actually conducted an informal survey among ourselves about this a few years back: among the ~20 of us CBCs, all adults now, there was a wide range of different language education experiences:
a) Spoke Cantonese at home, went to Mandarin weekend school (i.e. me)
b) Spoke Cantonese at home, went to Cantonese weekend school
c) Spoke Cantonese at home, no weekend school
d) Spoke English at home, went to "Chinese Immersion (??)" school and semi-regularly spent summers in China in their teens
All of us have at least semi-reasonable verbal skills in the language we spoke at home (and by "spoke at home", I also mean listening to the radio, watching the 6 o'clock news, watching shitty HK soap operas, etc). None of us can really read or write, except for two women who learned in their teens solely to be able to follow the tabloids and read articles about like, Andy Lau and stuff. What I'm saying is, we all had forces external to the weekend language classes that pushed us to get to whatever ability we have now. It was hard to judge the abilities of those in the last category: they basically only used their Mandarin to speak with my grandparents (which they could! and my grandparents were very happy about it! so mission accomplished, I guess, though that particular branch of the family had more money to throw at the problem).
Thinking back on my own experience, ugh, I have a lot of complicated feelings around it. Looking back, my particular school was not very well run, and after maybe 3 or 4 years I had learned everything I was ever going to learn there, and spent the remaining 5 years slacking off at the back of the class with everyone else who had given up. But, it did put me in an environment where pretty much everyone was "like me" to some degree (from a cultural background perspective), which I think was valuable, and it has thus far given me enough of a base in grammar and vocabulary to (very) minimally function in Mandarin. On the other hand, the whole experience basically put me off further education in Chinese (high school or university classes), which is really unfortunate.
posted by btfreek at 11:17 PM on January 18, 2016
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posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:25 AM on January 18, 2016