My sister is dating the best friend of the teacher who abused her
January 15, 2016 7:15 AM
My older sister was sexually abused by a teacher at our high school more than twenty years ago. She acted out a lot sexually as a teenager after that and briefly married a different teacher immediately after graduation. She divorced the second teacher and spent some time dating the first teacher, but then she married someone else and moved across the country.
She has recently moved back, and has started dating a man who was, according to another family member, best friends with the first teacher.
I did not know this until very recently. My sister introduced this man to me as just an 'old friend'. She has been very keen for me to get to know this man, has been trying to get me to go over to his house to make meals, which is something she has never asked before. She had him at our house for Christmas and New Years (though they'd only been dating a month, and she had never brought anyone she was dating to a family event before). Once I found out how she actually met this man, I was sickened. This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me. I was a confused little kid, and then a student at the high school where this all went down. It's been decades since this occurred, but I feel betrayed and furious at her for bringing this man into our lives.
I know that she was a child and can't be held responsible for what happened to her. The effects of the abuse were horrible for her. She never went to college, she got into cocaine and alcohol, and her second marriage was to an abusive gaslighting psychopath. In recent years she's been doing great, though. She had a very messy second divorce, but found a job that she loved and has moved back to our home state to finally get the education she needs to advance in her field. She's sober and really enjoying her studies, but has been having trouble dating. She reconnected to the friend of her abuser through facebook in order, she says, to try to better understand what happened to her. I think she is reconnecting with this person in order to rekindle the feelings she got back then: feeling singled out and special. She says she doesn't understand why this upsets me. The family member who told me about the current boyfriend's connection to the past abuser has told me explicitly that they don't want the boyfriend around their kids.
My sister is furious at me for not wanting to get to know her new boyfriend. She's furious with the family member who told me. I am beyond furious that she brought this man into my home for the holidays. I think that as pleasant as this new relationship appears, that she is going backwards towards a very unhealthy time, and that this man is someone that I can never, ever trust. She insists he didn't know that his friend had abused her, and that she did not meet him until she'd graduated from high school, but I am having a hard time believing her. She lied to me about how they met, knowing that had I known I never would have given the man that time of day. The story told by the family member who told about the boyfriend also somewhat contradicts this.
I have told her that if she wants to regain my trust, she needs to respect the boundary that I have set: that no matter how her relationship proceeds with this man, he will no longer be part of my life. She wants to go to my therapist with me to talk about it. I don't want that. I don't wish to be persuaded. I never want to hear the guy's name again. We had an enormous fight over this and both said very unkind things, but now she's just acting like everything's normal, except that she wants to go my therapist with me.
I feel angry that she brought these men into our lives in the first place. I'm angry that she seems to have no clue that the events had a profound effect on people other than herself. I'm angry that it's not enough that we've gotten over the hard time we had as kids, she has to drag us back in to it. I just want her to date outside her rapist's social circle. Is that too much to ask?
I did not know this until very recently. My sister introduced this man to me as just an 'old friend'. She has been very keen for me to get to know this man, has been trying to get me to go over to his house to make meals, which is something she has never asked before. She had him at our house for Christmas and New Years (though they'd only been dating a month, and she had never brought anyone she was dating to a family event before). Once I found out how she actually met this man, I was sickened. This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me. I was a confused little kid, and then a student at the high school where this all went down. It's been decades since this occurred, but I feel betrayed and furious at her for bringing this man into our lives.
I know that she was a child and can't be held responsible for what happened to her. The effects of the abuse were horrible for her. She never went to college, she got into cocaine and alcohol, and her second marriage was to an abusive gaslighting psychopath. In recent years she's been doing great, though. She had a very messy second divorce, but found a job that she loved and has moved back to our home state to finally get the education she needs to advance in her field. She's sober and really enjoying her studies, but has been having trouble dating. She reconnected to the friend of her abuser through facebook in order, she says, to try to better understand what happened to her. I think she is reconnecting with this person in order to rekindle the feelings she got back then: feeling singled out and special. She says she doesn't understand why this upsets me. The family member who told me about the current boyfriend's connection to the past abuser has told me explicitly that they don't want the boyfriend around their kids.
My sister is furious at me for not wanting to get to know her new boyfriend. She's furious with the family member who told me. I am beyond furious that she brought this man into my home for the holidays. I think that as pleasant as this new relationship appears, that she is going backwards towards a very unhealthy time, and that this man is someone that I can never, ever trust. She insists he didn't know that his friend had abused her, and that she did not meet him until she'd graduated from high school, but I am having a hard time believing her. She lied to me about how they met, knowing that had I known I never would have given the man that time of day. The story told by the family member who told about the boyfriend also somewhat contradicts this.
I have told her that if she wants to regain my trust, she needs to respect the boundary that I have set: that no matter how her relationship proceeds with this man, he will no longer be part of my life. She wants to go to my therapist with me to talk about it. I don't want that. I don't wish to be persuaded. I never want to hear the guy's name again. We had an enormous fight over this and both said very unkind things, but now she's just acting like everything's normal, except that she wants to go my therapist with me.
I feel angry that she brought these men into our lives in the first place. I'm angry that she seems to have no clue that the events had a profound effect on people other than herself. I'm angry that it's not enough that we've gotten over the hard time we had as kids, she has to drag us back in to it. I just want her to date outside her rapist's social circle. Is that too much to ask?
Does this man treat your sister well? That's really the only business you have.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:24 AM on January 15, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:24 AM on January 15, 2016
I just want her to date outside her rapist's social circle. Is that too much to ask?
As astronomically hard as it is to say: Yes. Yes, it is too much to ask, because she is her own person and you don't get to make those decisions for her. You don't have to stop wanting different things for her, but you have to learn to want them and then let them go and support the life she actually has. Or else get used to the fact that you're not going to have a relationship with your sister. Even when they're doing things you think are stupid, cutting people out of your life is not a way to control them. It's a way to protect yourself. If the person you're trying to protect isn't you but her, this is entirely counterproductive. The wrong isn't the wanting; the wrong is the expectation of compliance and the things you're doing to try to enforce compliance.
You couldn't protect her before and you want to protect her now. You have no idea how much I feel for you on that, but this is overstepping the bounds of what you get to control.
posted by Sequence at 7:35 AM on January 15, 2016
As astronomically hard as it is to say: Yes. Yes, it is too much to ask, because she is her own person and you don't get to make those decisions for her. You don't have to stop wanting different things for her, but you have to learn to want them and then let them go and support the life she actually has. Or else get used to the fact that you're not going to have a relationship with your sister. Even when they're doing things you think are stupid, cutting people out of your life is not a way to control them. It's a way to protect yourself. If the person you're trying to protect isn't you but her, this is entirely counterproductive. The wrong isn't the wanting; the wrong is the expectation of compliance and the things you're doing to try to enforce compliance.
You couldn't protect her before and you want to protect her now. You have no idea how much I feel for you on that, but this is overstepping the bounds of what you get to control.
posted by Sequence at 7:35 AM on January 15, 2016
Your sister can date anyone she wants, but you do not have to like it. You are allowed to never associate with this man. That is 100% fine.
A less intense but analogous situation might be her joining a multilevel marketing scam. You can love your sister, but you can say, I never want to hear about Scamstar or whatever.
posted by ignignokt at 7:40 AM on January 15, 2016
A less intense but analogous situation might be her joining a multilevel marketing scam. You can love your sister, but you can say, I never want to hear about Scamstar or whatever.
posted by ignignokt at 7:40 AM on January 15, 2016
She wants to go to my therapist with me to talk about it. I don't want that. I don't wish to be persuaded. I never want to hear the guy's name again. We had an enormous fight over this and both said very unkind things, but now she's just acting like everything's normal, except that she wants to go my therapist with me.
I don't think you have to go to your therapist with her, but I absolutely think that while you have the right to every single one of your angry, complicated feelings, you also have the obligation to talk about these feelings with her in a safe and neutral space, which is exactly what she's asking.
As hard as it is to believe, given the dynamic you're used to (she's the fuckup, you're the good and responsible one) she is absolutely in the right here.
Go to therapy.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:53 AM on January 15, 2016
I don't think you have to go to your therapist with her, but I absolutely think that while you have the right to every single one of your angry, complicated feelings, you also have the obligation to talk about these feelings with her in a safe and neutral space, which is exactly what she's asking.
As hard as it is to believe, given the dynamic you're used to (she's the fuckup, you're the good and responsible one) she is absolutely in the right here.
Go to therapy.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:53 AM on January 15, 2016
I think if you go to your therapist with her, your therapist will back up your feelings in front of her. I was in a similar situation (not with family) and that's what happened.
posted by sweetkid at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2016
posted by sweetkid at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2016
I just want her to date outside her rapist's social circle. Is that too much to ask?
Yes. Telling other people who they can date is not okay. I totally understand why you are upset and frustrated by this chain of events. I would be too. My sister often dates "inappropriate" people and gets really wrapped up in it and that can sometimes drive wedges into the family in places but she gets to choose and even make her own bad choices. It sounds like you possibly have some unhealthy family dynamics that aren't just your sister who has had her share of problems.
So, totally AOK for you to create your own boundaries but they are just those: yours. You don't have to debate them with your sister or negotiate them with your sister you can just let her know what they are and leave it alone. De-escalate the drama. Let other adults be adults. Support her if you can but otherwise stop trying to steer the ship that isn't yours.
posted by jessamyn at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2016
Yes. Telling other people who they can date is not okay. I totally understand why you are upset and frustrated by this chain of events. I would be too. My sister often dates "inappropriate" people and gets really wrapped up in it and that can sometimes drive wedges into the family in places but she gets to choose and even make her own bad choices. It sounds like you possibly have some unhealthy family dynamics that aren't just your sister who has had her share of problems.
So, totally AOK for you to create your own boundaries but they are just those: yours. You don't have to debate them with your sister or negotiate them with your sister you can just let her know what they are and leave it alone. De-escalate the drama. Let other adults be adults. Support her if you can but otherwise stop trying to steer the ship that isn't yours.
posted by jessamyn at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2016
How sad for her. I can't imagine the pain she must be in to invite her rapist's best friend into her life and her bed. The trauma she must have experienced has had long-reaching effects.
If you are to regain family harmony, what you need to say to your sister is, "I really overreacted with anger when we last spoke, and I wish I could take back my extreme reaction. I am sorry for taking out my negative emotions on you, that was unfair. But be that as it may, I need for you to respect my boundaries on this one, and I will respect yours. I don't want to be involved with [Name] and I'm not comfortable having contact with him because of my own trauma. And I promise that I won't bring him up, I won't treat you poorly because of your choices, and I won't meddle in your affairs."
For the record, I think your reaction is totally reasonable and I think the whole thing is disgusting, but part of adulting is letting people have the dignity of making their own choices, even ones we don't agree with. It's harder when they're people we care about, but then it's all the more important.
posted by juniperesque at 8:31 AM on January 15, 2016
If you are to regain family harmony, what you need to say to your sister is, "I really overreacted with anger when we last spoke, and I wish I could take back my extreme reaction. I am sorry for taking out my negative emotions on you, that was unfair. But be that as it may, I need for you to respect my boundaries on this one, and I will respect yours. I don't want to be involved with [Name] and I'm not comfortable having contact with him because of my own trauma. And I promise that I won't bring him up, I won't treat you poorly because of your choices, and I won't meddle in your affairs."
For the record, I think your reaction is totally reasonable and I think the whole thing is disgusting, but part of adulting is letting people have the dignity of making their own choices, even ones we don't agree with. It's harder when they're people we care about, but then it's all the more important.
posted by juniperesque at 8:31 AM on January 15, 2016
Does your sister realize she continues to date inside her childhood rapist's social circle?
Surely there are studies or literature discussing this phenomenon. I suggest you educate yourself about what's going on. Then discuss that with your therapist. You need a way to communicate with your sister in a peaceful non-blamey way. She can't hear you when you're angry at her. She can't see that she's dating within her rapist's social circle, and why that's a problem. In fact, deep down she thinks fixing the past with these men is (a) possible, and (b) some kind of destiny or fate. Like, these people are her "tribe" or something. It's her "safe" place to be amongst them, even though they hurt her.
I think you're 100% right, but you need tools for discussing this productively. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:38 AM on January 15, 2016
Surely there are studies or literature discussing this phenomenon. I suggest you educate yourself about what's going on. Then discuss that with your therapist. You need a way to communicate with your sister in a peaceful non-blamey way. She can't hear you when you're angry at her. She can't see that she's dating within her rapist's social circle, and why that's a problem. In fact, deep down she thinks fixing the past with these men is (a) possible, and (b) some kind of destiny or fate. Like, these people are her "tribe" or something. It's her "safe" place to be amongst them, even though they hurt her.
I think you're 100% right, but you need tools for discussing this productively. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:38 AM on January 15, 2016
I find conflicts with siblings make me 11 again and my impulses get muddied by that. I have similar dynamics with one of my siblings so I can empathize with your position here. A lot.
It's fine that you don't have to want this man in your life, but it's not likely you get to keep your sister in your life if that's the case. It's hard to do that with people's SO's.
We don't get to tell an adult who they can date. Full stop. We can try, but I have seen both in my life and in hundreds of examples here that this never seems to work. Everyone always chooses the sexual partner over their sister, brother, mother, life long friend.
I think the meeting with a therapist and having a conversation isn't the worst idea. You don't want to be persuaded, that's fine but it's an opportunity to have a real conversation about this instead of a fight were "very unkind" things are said. It would be a good chance to lay out your boundaries fully and calmly and see if she can live with them as part of your relationship. It's possible she can't.
posted by French Fry at 8:38 AM on January 15, 2016
It's fine that you don't have to want this man in your life, but it's not likely you get to keep your sister in your life if that's the case. It's hard to do that with people's SO's.
We don't get to tell an adult who they can date. Full stop. We can try, but I have seen both in my life and in hundreds of examples here that this never seems to work. Everyone always chooses the sexual partner over their sister, brother, mother, life long friend.
I think the meeting with a therapist and having a conversation isn't the worst idea. You don't want to be persuaded, that's fine but it's an opportunity to have a real conversation about this instead of a fight were "very unkind" things are said. It would be a good chance to lay out your boundaries fully and calmly and see if she can live with them as part of your relationship. It's possible she can't.
posted by French Fry at 8:38 AM on January 15, 2016
Wait, is current boyfriend _still_ friends with previous associate? Because I hear that they _were_ best friends, but not specifically about their current status. Maybe he's backed away from that guy? If so, maybe there's a tiny chance he's not _that_ bad?
I realize that this is unlikely, and this guys is probably no good, but you didn't mention it, so I figured it might be worth considering for at least a second...
posted by amtho at 9:02 AM on January 15, 2016
I realize that this is unlikely, and this guys is probably no good, but you didn't mention it, so I figured it might be worth considering for at least a second...
posted by amtho at 9:02 AM on January 15, 2016
You seem unaware of the co-dependency involved in the dynamic between you and your sister. This is likely because you were the golden child and she was the goat. This dynamic is classic, common in the lives of abuse survivors from narcissistic families, and treatable. She gets to set boundaries with you, too.
Standing in judgment of your sister only reinforces for her that she has to try harder, do more, be better, be more like you, be less of herself, medicate medicate medicate her self-esteem issues. You are actually contributing to her glomming on to abusive people if you reject her and refuse to engage with her in a new way, as adults, on the subject of your relationship. Because this is about the relationship you have with your sister, not the relationship she has with someone you disapprove of.
It's okay to be sickened by sick behavior. It's not okay to refuse to see your sister's humanity, unless what you want is to be right and righteous. You don't have to allow an abuser around your family. But she is not the abuser. If you cannot find a way to re-establish a relationship with your sister through a good faith effort on both your parts, then feel free to walk away from her knowing that you did your best and so did she. But dismissing her choices and her person out of hand like this seems like an old pattern. Think on it carefully before drawing this line in the sand with her.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 9:10 AM on January 15, 2016
Standing in judgment of your sister only reinforces for her that she has to try harder, do more, be better, be more like you, be less of herself, medicate medicate medicate her self-esteem issues. You are actually contributing to her glomming on to abusive people if you reject her and refuse to engage with her in a new way, as adults, on the subject of your relationship. Because this is about the relationship you have with your sister, not the relationship she has with someone you disapprove of.
It's okay to be sickened by sick behavior. It's not okay to refuse to see your sister's humanity, unless what you want is to be right and righteous. You don't have to allow an abuser around your family. But she is not the abuser. If you cannot find a way to re-establish a relationship with your sister through a good faith effort on both your parts, then feel free to walk away from her knowing that you did your best and so did she. But dismissing her choices and her person out of hand like this seems like an old pattern. Think on it carefully before drawing this line in the sand with her.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 9:10 AM on January 15, 2016
You aren't clear about whether these two guys are still in the same social circle. If so, then you saying "I feel angry that she brought these men into our lives in the first place" is understandable. If not, then you shouldn't be blaming her for bringing her rapist into your life so many years ago. You were all victims back then. If they are not still friends, and he didn't know way back then, then your anger is probably more of a fear for your sister's well being, which is understandable.
I don't know any of you, but it's not crazy that the friend had no idea. My best friend for more than 20 years was fired a few years ago for embezzling from their company. I had NO clue it was happening, and it went on for like 10 years.
I'm not saying this isn't fucked up, because it's not a healthy way to interact with the world, but she's an adult, and all you can do is set boundaries. If she reaches out with "help me break these patterns," then that's different. But it sounds like she wants you to go to therapist to be convinced it's OK, which is your choice to make.
posted by archimago at 9:11 AM on January 15, 2016
I don't know any of you, but it's not crazy that the friend had no idea. My best friend for more than 20 years was fired a few years ago for embezzling from their company. I had NO clue it was happening, and it went on for like 10 years.
I'm not saying this isn't fucked up, because it's not a healthy way to interact with the world, but she's an adult, and all you can do is set boundaries. If she reaches out with "help me break these patterns," then that's different. But it sounds like she wants you to go to therapist to be convinced it's OK, which is your choice to make.
posted by archimago at 9:11 AM on January 15, 2016
Am I missing something here? Has her boyfriend actually done something specific that merits this level of reproach, other than having had an acquaintance decades ago that was abusive to you sister?
I'm trying to put this into a personal context so I can imagine how it seems from the other side. A friend of mine from high school years, who later became my housemate for a coupe years in college, is now in prison for robbing a series of pharmacies and assaulting a woman who tried to keep him from escaping one of those pharmacies. If I was met with this kind of a response from the family of someone I was dating--that my long-ago association with someone who committed criminal acts unrelated to me--I would probably tell my significant other that it was an unreasonable complaint and made me incredibly uncomfortable.
Without some specific action connecting the boyfriend to the abuse your sister received, I don't understand what the basis of further reasonable action on your part could be.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:13 AM on January 15, 2016
I'm trying to put this into a personal context so I can imagine how it seems from the other side. A friend of mine from high school years, who later became my housemate for a coupe years in college, is now in prison for robbing a series of pharmacies and assaulting a woman who tried to keep him from escaping one of those pharmacies. If I was met with this kind of a response from the family of someone I was dating--that my long-ago association with someone who committed criminal acts unrelated to me--I would probably tell my significant other that it was an unreasonable complaint and made me incredibly uncomfortable.
Without some specific action connecting the boyfriend to the abuse your sister received, I don't understand what the basis of further reasonable action on your part could be.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:13 AM on January 15, 2016
I think your feelings make perfect sense, and using those feelings as fuel to set and maintain (your) boundaries regarding this man sounds quite healthy. As is obvious to you, your sister has different feelings, and she's shown that she's capable of making poor choices repeatedly in her past. I'm sure you and other family members have tried to guide her with those past poor choices, to no avail, so you know that you can't live someone else's life in the abstract and in her case specifically. I think all you can do is focus on what you can control, your own choices.
Since this is affecting you pretty intensely, if you're not already talking to your therapist about it, you might want to. It's a lot to sort through.
posted by Adrian57 at 9:57 AM on January 15, 2016
Since this is affecting you pretty intensely, if you're not already talking to your therapist about it, you might want to. It's a lot to sort through.
posted by Adrian57 at 9:57 AM on January 15, 2016
I think a lot of this depends on what the current association between this guy and the rapist is. Is he still close friends with a child rapist? If so, then absolutely he is someone I would not allow around my kids or into my home. Regardless of how kind one might want to be to your sister, there's just too much risk there that this is a person with a severely messed up moral compass around child sex abuse.
On the other hand, if this guy had the wool pulled over his eyes like everyone else and cut ties as soon as the crime was revealed, I can see how in some ways it could be sort of cathartic for your sister to bond with someone who -- to a much lesser extent! -- was also fooled and manipulated by this guy.
In either case, I think the suggestion of a family therapy session for you and your sister is a good idea, although I think finding a neutral third party therapist who is not currently seeing you or your sister would be the best way to go. This doesn't mean you change your mind on meeting this guy and spending time with him -- if that's the boundary you need to have, then so be it (especially if his is still close to the rapist socially). But it could be a way for you and your sister to improve your communication skills and work through some of the pain that is clearly still with you guys even if this dude were no where in the picture.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:10 AM on January 15, 2016
On the other hand, if this guy had the wool pulled over his eyes like everyone else and cut ties as soon as the crime was revealed, I can see how in some ways it could be sort of cathartic for your sister to bond with someone who -- to a much lesser extent! -- was also fooled and manipulated by this guy.
In either case, I think the suggestion of a family therapy session for you and your sister is a good idea, although I think finding a neutral third party therapist who is not currently seeing you or your sister would be the best way to go. This doesn't mean you change your mind on meeting this guy and spending time with him -- if that's the boundary you need to have, then so be it (especially if his is still close to the rapist socially). But it could be a way for you and your sister to improve your communication skills and work through some of the pain that is clearly still with you guys even if this dude were no where in the picture.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:10 AM on January 15, 2016
I can't speak to the larger question here, but I do know that when I was in an abusive situation that the most unhelpful thing was when people condemned my relationship and cut me out because of it. That made it exponentially harder to leave when I did realize that it was in fact something I did not want to be in. I had no one at that point.
Just favoriting this wasn't enough.
Close friends of mine have been in shitty, abusive relationships. The kind where they break up and get back together with the abuser or shitty person repeatedly, which just slowly drives friends away who can't deal with them talking about it or asking for advice then just doing the "wrong" thing again.
I've drifted away from people because of this, and i regret it. There's also been friends that i was just there to listen for, and whom i picked up when they called me at 1am crying saying they needed to get the fuck out.
Look in to the concept of "holding space". The best thing you can do here is just be someone she knows she can always talk to, without judgement, and who will always be there to help.
The first time i really did this, i was super afraid of my friend just cutting me off if i said anything negative, so i just listened. I would only say something was bad if she asked me if it was. After the fact, she noted that i was the only person who didn't go on a 5 minute long rant about how awful he was and how awful her choices were and just fucking listened.
I also haven't even touched on the fact that other than by association, this guy himself hasn't done anything bad with her or that you know of, no? "This person is shitty because they associate with shitty people" is a super tough argument to make.
It's hard as hell, but you're probably going to have to wait until this guy actually does something shitty. If ever. And then you're going to have to wait for her to realize it's shitty and talk to you about it and ask for help or your opinion.
That's basically what you get to do here. It's totally legit to say he's not welcome at your home, and that you don't want to hang out with them together... But that's likely going to drive a pretty big wedge in. I don't know what to say about that. It's your boundary to make, and it's legit, but she's going to see it as a personal attack and you're kind of just going to have to live with the fallout.
posted by emptythought at 11:42 AM on January 15, 2016
Just favoriting this wasn't enough.
Close friends of mine have been in shitty, abusive relationships. The kind where they break up and get back together with the abuser or shitty person repeatedly, which just slowly drives friends away who can't deal with them talking about it or asking for advice then just doing the "wrong" thing again.
I've drifted away from people because of this, and i regret it. There's also been friends that i was just there to listen for, and whom i picked up when they called me at 1am crying saying they needed to get the fuck out.
Look in to the concept of "holding space". The best thing you can do here is just be someone she knows she can always talk to, without judgement, and who will always be there to help.
The first time i really did this, i was super afraid of my friend just cutting me off if i said anything negative, so i just listened. I would only say something was bad if she asked me if it was. After the fact, she noted that i was the only person who didn't go on a 5 minute long rant about how awful he was and how awful her choices were and just fucking listened.
I also haven't even touched on the fact that other than by association, this guy himself hasn't done anything bad with her or that you know of, no? "This person is shitty because they associate with shitty people" is a super tough argument to make.
It's hard as hell, but you're probably going to have to wait until this guy actually does something shitty. If ever. And then you're going to have to wait for her to realize it's shitty and talk to you about it and ask for help or your opinion.
That's basically what you get to do here. It's totally legit to say he's not welcome at your home, and that you don't want to hang out with them together... But that's likely going to drive a pretty big wedge in. I don't know what to say about that. It's your boundary to make, and it's legit, but she's going to see it as a personal attack and you're kind of just going to have to live with the fallout.
posted by emptythought at 11:42 AM on January 15, 2016
This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me. I was a confused little kid, and then a student at the high school where this all went down. It's been decades since this occurred, but I feel betrayed and furious at her for bringing this man into our lives.
I know that she was a child and can't be held responsible for what happened to her.[...] I think she is reconnecting with this person in order to rekindle the feelings she got back then: feeling singled out and special.
i think you actually, somewhere in your heart and head, do believe she was responsible. i think your relationship with your sister will always be strained until you deal with the pain this brought you and then really truly believe that no matter your own pain, it's still not her fault. who she is dating isn't the thing that's between you. never dealing with the trauma and how it affected you is the thing that needs to be sussed out. i agree that some solo and sibling therapy on this issue would be helpful.
posted by nadawi at 12:05 PM on January 15, 2016
I know that she was a child and can't be held responsible for what happened to her.[...] I think she is reconnecting with this person in order to rekindle the feelings she got back then: feeling singled out and special.
i think you actually, somewhere in your heart and head, do believe she was responsible. i think your relationship with your sister will always be strained until you deal with the pain this brought you and then really truly believe that no matter your own pain, it's still not her fault. who she is dating isn't the thing that's between you. never dealing with the trauma and how it affected you is the thing that needs to be sussed out. i agree that some solo and sibling therapy on this issue would be helpful.
posted by nadawi at 12:05 PM on January 15, 2016
I kept having to reread the question because your reaction sounds like it would be understandable if your sister was dating the man who abused her, but she's not. She's dating a man who, at some point, was friends with the abuser. She's an adult, and while the possible proximity to her abuser may be uncomfortable for you, it's not for her and that's what matters. As long as he treats her well and she's happy, you should butt out.
You seem to have a very large amount of residual anger over this. And, it seems to be veering into a lot of victim blaming under the guise of looking out for your sister's best interests, "I feel angry that she brought these men into our lives in the first place." While I know that witnessing the fall-out from your sister's abuse must have been extremely difficult and painful, it's not her job to make it up to you by conducting her life in a way that you feel is acceptable. Your reaction is likely due to the fact that you're still in a lot of pain and have a huge amount of anger over this. Continue with your own therapy and try to recognize that the way people heal from trauma and abuse doesn't always follow the paths that we would choose for them. As long as her current boyfriend is not abusing her, I don't see why you should get to control how she lives her life and demand she do X and not Y. She's had people trying to control and manipulate her for a very long time, she doesn't need it from you as well.
The only part of this that you should be addressing directly is the following: "This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me." Your wounds are yours and yours to heal. You can't heal them by trying to control someone else's life.
posted by quince at 12:09 PM on January 15, 2016
You seem to have a very large amount of residual anger over this. And, it seems to be veering into a lot of victim blaming under the guise of looking out for your sister's best interests, "I feel angry that she brought these men into our lives in the first place." While I know that witnessing the fall-out from your sister's abuse must have been extremely difficult and painful, it's not her job to make it up to you by conducting her life in a way that you feel is acceptable. Your reaction is likely due to the fact that you're still in a lot of pain and have a huge amount of anger over this. Continue with your own therapy and try to recognize that the way people heal from trauma and abuse doesn't always follow the paths that we would choose for them. As long as her current boyfriend is not abusing her, I don't see why you should get to control how she lives her life and demand she do X and not Y. She's had people trying to control and manipulate her for a very long time, she doesn't need it from you as well.
The only part of this that you should be addressing directly is the following: "This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me." Your wounds are yours and yours to heal. You can't heal them by trying to control someone else's life.
posted by quince at 12:09 PM on January 15, 2016
Hi anonymous, I can relate to witnessing fall-out relationships by a sibling who suffered tremendously from abuse. I used to feel angry at my sibling too for bringing such weird sketchy people into the intimacy of the family sphere, and having no say in it. It's fair to say I found it emotionally disturbing and vulnerability-inducing at times. You know how children can be traumatized from witnessing physical violence? I think it's fair to say children can similarly suffer from exposure to poor sexual boundaries (which really borders on sexual abuse), because there's certainly nothing comforting or self-esteem-building about witnessing a teen sibling have a sexual relationship with someone much older (and obviously inappropriate) in front of parents who just don't care because they've already given up on their kids' potential.
This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me.
This is very fair to bring up and worth exploring. There is something about watching a sibling struggle slowly and painfully to find their path in the real world -- it mirrors powerful truth about how unsafe and negligent that home environment was. I can say for myself, I must have dissociated some real terror at times when I had to witness my sibling's life experience (and the negative factors at work) and not go crazy from the anxiety of wondering whether that script was going to become mine. In fact I remember working awfully hard as a kid so my sibling's script didn't become mine, and my parents certainly never acknowledged my feelings around that. Yet here I am, still carrying them, as an adult.
Here's a ray of light though. I don't keep an active relationship with this particular sibling because both our personalities are so easily triggered by each other -- there was just too much abuse, neglect, and not enough intervention before adulthood. However I do maintain a positive influence through a parent we are both in contact with. Because this person is my sibling, I do have some good insight on what they need to hear at times -- or rather, what they didn't hear at crucial times growing up. For example, this sibling is really devastated when a relationship ends, and typically tends to rebound to the next bad relationship quickly. Our parent and I both affirmed to this sibling to enjoy how every time they get into a relationship, the new partner is always better in so many ways than the last. We both kept talking this sibling up into looking forward to the next possibility, because sibling was very prone to depressive self-talk and tended to think they had to settle for whatever they could get. A few years went by, as did a few more poor relationships. Then this past year my parent shares with me that my sibling has gotten into the healthiest relationship yet. I've met the new partner who seems like a good fit (including in age), and genuinely affectionate for my sibling. They're starting a family and expecting their first child this spring.
So, anonymous, there's that. If you need space from your sister and the fall-out of the overall family situation (your sister's relationships being a symptom of that overall family dynamic problem), that's fair enough. It doesn't make you a bad sister yourself. It also doesn't mean that your sister's life (and/or judgment) can't improve, or that you stepping back is somehow endorsing her life not to improve. It's okay to focus on your own priorities, and wish her well in the meantime. If she's got someone who is healthy, like a mom or dad, who is consistently in her life and in her corner, she may end up doing just fine. Figure out who can be an ally to the situation, figure out the boundaries you need, and go from there. If later on down the road, you've both had enough of the good life to share company again, you can both decide on that too. Good luck.
posted by human ecologist at 1:31 PM on January 15, 2016
This has torn open a lot of old wounds for me.
This is very fair to bring up and worth exploring. There is something about watching a sibling struggle slowly and painfully to find their path in the real world -- it mirrors powerful truth about how unsafe and negligent that home environment was. I can say for myself, I must have dissociated some real terror at times when I had to witness my sibling's life experience (and the negative factors at work) and not go crazy from the anxiety of wondering whether that script was going to become mine. In fact I remember working awfully hard as a kid so my sibling's script didn't become mine, and my parents certainly never acknowledged my feelings around that. Yet here I am, still carrying them, as an adult.
Here's a ray of light though. I don't keep an active relationship with this particular sibling because both our personalities are so easily triggered by each other -- there was just too much abuse, neglect, and not enough intervention before adulthood. However I do maintain a positive influence through a parent we are both in contact with. Because this person is my sibling, I do have some good insight on what they need to hear at times -- or rather, what they didn't hear at crucial times growing up. For example, this sibling is really devastated when a relationship ends, and typically tends to rebound to the next bad relationship quickly. Our parent and I both affirmed to this sibling to enjoy how every time they get into a relationship, the new partner is always better in so many ways than the last. We both kept talking this sibling up into looking forward to the next possibility, because sibling was very prone to depressive self-talk and tended to think they had to settle for whatever they could get. A few years went by, as did a few more poor relationships. Then this past year my parent shares with me that my sibling has gotten into the healthiest relationship yet. I've met the new partner who seems like a good fit (including in age), and genuinely affectionate for my sibling. They're starting a family and expecting their first child this spring.
So, anonymous, there's that. If you need space from your sister and the fall-out of the overall family situation (your sister's relationships being a symptom of that overall family dynamic problem), that's fair enough. It doesn't make you a bad sister yourself. It also doesn't mean that your sister's life (and/or judgment) can't improve, or that you stepping back is somehow endorsing her life not to improve. It's okay to focus on your own priorities, and wish her well in the meantime. If she's got someone who is healthy, like a mom or dad, who is consistently in her life and in her corner, she may end up doing just fine. Figure out who can be an ally to the situation, figure out the boundaries you need, and go from there. If later on down the road, you've both had enough of the good life to share company again, you can both decide on that too. Good luck.
posted by human ecologist at 1:31 PM on January 15, 2016
I would recommend taking her up on that therapy appointment. It's not going to go the way she thinks it will, and it might help get some sense into her. (I know I've had GREAT results bringing my mom along to therapy with me--there's just something about that scenario that really works to de-crazy somehow.) Besides, clearly your sister needs therapy and any way you can get her there...
I agree with you that it's totally disturbing, but on the bright side, at least she's not dating her abuser again, right? So there's that. And creepy as the idea is, technically it doesn't sound like you know for a fact he was in on it, a rapist himself, supportive of the situation, etc. Maaaaaybe we'll all get lucky and he might be the sort who doesn't do that shit?
It does worry me that after a month of dating she's trying to make him Family already, and that she is apparently specifically dating him to work out uh, whatever issues, i.e. re-enact it as best she can/"try to figure out what happened to her." ohgodew. But as everyone else points out, someone will ALWAYS pick whoever they're nailing even if it's only been for a month over their entire family, there's nothing you can do about that, and you may not even be able to see her without him in tow at this point. There's nothing you can do to split them up and clearly she's going to keep practicing ugly cycles of dating horrible men until she finally decides on her own that she wants to take up therapy and stop doing this again and again.
I don't know how much you can stomach him and her together, but at this point it may be a case of no sister entirely vs the Package Deal. You can't break them up, you may or may not get her to therapy, but...many of us have had to put up with a friend or family member's horrible SO so as to not abandon them. It happens. It sucks, but it happens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:20 PM on January 15, 2016
I agree with you that it's totally disturbing, but on the bright side, at least she's not dating her abuser again, right? So there's that. And creepy as the idea is, technically it doesn't sound like you know for a fact he was in on it, a rapist himself, supportive of the situation, etc. Maaaaaybe we'll all get lucky and he might be the sort who doesn't do that shit?
It does worry me that after a month of dating she's trying to make him Family already, and that she is apparently specifically dating him to work out uh, whatever issues, i.e. re-enact it as best she can/"try to figure out what happened to her." ohgodew. But as everyone else points out, someone will ALWAYS pick whoever they're nailing even if it's only been for a month over their entire family, there's nothing you can do about that, and you may not even be able to see her without him in tow at this point. There's nothing you can do to split them up and clearly she's going to keep practicing ugly cycles of dating horrible men until she finally decides on her own that she wants to take up therapy and stop doing this again and again.
I don't know how much you can stomach him and her together, but at this point it may be a case of no sister entirely vs the Package Deal. You can't break them up, you may or may not get her to therapy, but...many of us have had to put up with a friend or family member's horrible SO so as to not abandon them. It happens. It sucks, but it happens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:20 PM on January 15, 2016
I'm confused: her current boyfriend *was* friends with her rapist back in the day, or *is* still friends with her rapist now? That makes a big difference.
Can you please contact a mod and ask them to post a note in the thread clarifying that?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:28 PM on January 15, 2016
Can you please contact a mod and ask them to post a note in the thread clarifying that?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:28 PM on January 15, 2016
I really feel for you. My sister, who is my same age, "got involved" with a math teacher at her all girls school. There was a group of young men (late 20's, early 30's) who taught there. They were tight friends and all preyed on their students. They used the natural crushes the students had on them to bolster their own egos. Whoever was rumored to be dating one of these men was an object of envy. My sister did not feel that she was a victim, she felt she was an incredible person who had been so mature and interesting that this guy HAD to fuck her despite the risk to his career.
She may still see it that was, it's definitely not something I could talk to her about. But it royally screwed her up.
Anyway. I would bet dollars to donuts that their little gang of Hot Teachers (who were only hot in that they were the only boys in the building) is replicated in so many schools. If her current boyfriend was one of his gang of predators, he is as guilty as the original assailant. But just to some other girl, some other family.
You didn't say it, but I get the feeling he was part of the original problem, not an innocent bystander.
If I were in your shoes, I would take her up on the therapy suggestion. And if you know that new BF was part of the problem back when, don't let her gaslight you into some "it's diiiiiiferent nowwww" agreement.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 8:24 PM on January 15, 2016
She may still see it that was, it's definitely not something I could talk to her about. But it royally screwed her up.
Anyway. I would bet dollars to donuts that their little gang of Hot Teachers (who were only hot in that they were the only boys in the building) is replicated in so many schools. If her current boyfriend was one of his gang of predators, he is as guilty as the original assailant. But just to some other girl, some other family.
You didn't say it, but I get the feeling he was part of the original problem, not an innocent bystander.
If I were in your shoes, I would take her up on the therapy suggestion. And if you know that new BF was part of the problem back when, don't let her gaslight you into some "it's diiiiiiferent nowwww" agreement.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 8:24 PM on January 15, 2016
She acted out a lot sexually as a teenager after that
I just want to talk about one small piece of the framing here for a moment, since others have gone into more detail on the larger issues here. Maybe it's just my own uncomfortable associations with the phrase "acting out" coming into play, since it used to be used by a physically and emotionally abusive adult in my family to dismiss perfectly normal teenage behavior he didn't approve of, but I feel like this is somewhat derisive toward and dismissive of your sister. It sounds like a label pinned on her by adults, not something that's very descriptive of her actual behavior. Did she have a lot of sex? Did she talk about sex a lot? It's just unclear what this means.
I ask not to make you go into inappropriate detail. Maybe you used the phrase to avoid that. This is also not to say that your feelings about whatever she did do don't matter, and it is clear that what was done to her and her subsequent actions had an effect on you. But to echo what some others have said above, I think you should pick apart your feelings about this a bit more, even down to questioning the words you use to speak and think about it. Understanding what parts of how you feel come from something that happened to you and what parts come from others' reactions to your sister and what parts come from your own feelings about your sister's behavior and others' reactions to it can only help you clarify things for yourself and determine what's most important to you. Then you can better put that into the context of what's important to the concentric rings of people around you—family, friends, your sister, your neighborhood, society—and think about potential paths forward.
posted by limeonaire at 7:29 AM on January 16, 2016
I just want to talk about one small piece of the framing here for a moment, since others have gone into more detail on the larger issues here. Maybe it's just my own uncomfortable associations with the phrase "acting out" coming into play, since it used to be used by a physically and emotionally abusive adult in my family to dismiss perfectly normal teenage behavior he didn't approve of, but I feel like this is somewhat derisive toward and dismissive of your sister. It sounds like a label pinned on her by adults, not something that's very descriptive of her actual behavior. Did she have a lot of sex? Did she talk about sex a lot? It's just unclear what this means.
I ask not to make you go into inappropriate detail. Maybe you used the phrase to avoid that. This is also not to say that your feelings about whatever she did do don't matter, and it is clear that what was done to her and her subsequent actions had an effect on you. But to echo what some others have said above, I think you should pick apart your feelings about this a bit more, even down to questioning the words you use to speak and think about it. Understanding what parts of how you feel come from something that happened to you and what parts come from others' reactions to your sister and what parts come from your own feelings about your sister's behavior and others' reactions to it can only help you clarify things for yourself and determine what's most important to you. Then you can better put that into the context of what's important to the concentric rings of people around you—family, friends, your sister, your neighborhood, society—and think about potential paths forward.
posted by limeonaire at 7:29 AM on January 16, 2016
I'm running into the same challenge as some other MeFites here; it's difficult to respond because a few key things are unclear:
1. Was he aware of/involved in your sister's abuse at the time?
2. Did he commit similar transgressions?
3. Is he still friends with your sister's rapist?
If the answer to all 3 of those are no, then I think your reaction to this situation and attitude towards him may need some adjusting. If the answer to either, or both, of the last 2 questions is yes, then I completely understand where you are coming from, but I think there are better ways to approach it, as mentioned in the posts above. The first question is a little trickier. I don't necessarily see it as a deal breaker, but context, including their ages, plays a huge part. Maybe he knew, but wasn't sure what to do. Maybe he tried to do something, but it was ineffective. Maybe at the time, the age difference didn't seem so vast, so it was viewed through a different lens. We thought about these issues very differently 20 years ago, and, even now, our concepts of what is rape, the best way to support victims, and what bystanders should do are still evolving. Acknowledging this doesn't diminish what happened to your sister, people's culpability, and the painful fallout that was injected into your own life, but I think understanding someone and the circumstantial complexities can be enormously helpful.
I would urge you to take your sister up on her therapy session offer. It could be very helpful for both of you. There is a lot of pain, anger, and confusion in your question. It's clear that you love your sister, but also the things that happened to her and her own actions have affected you adversely and deeply. Ideally, that first session could be the first step to healing those old wounds and building a stronger relationship with your sister, regardless of whom she is dating. Best of luck to you and her!
posted by katemcd at 8:01 AM on January 16, 2016
1. Was he aware of/involved in your sister's abuse at the time?
2. Did he commit similar transgressions?
3. Is he still friends with your sister's rapist?
If the answer to all 3 of those are no, then I think your reaction to this situation and attitude towards him may need some adjusting. If the answer to either, or both, of the last 2 questions is yes, then I completely understand where you are coming from, but I think there are better ways to approach it, as mentioned in the posts above. The first question is a little trickier. I don't necessarily see it as a deal breaker, but context, including their ages, plays a huge part. Maybe he knew, but wasn't sure what to do. Maybe he tried to do something, but it was ineffective. Maybe at the time, the age difference didn't seem so vast, so it was viewed through a different lens. We thought about these issues very differently 20 years ago, and, even now, our concepts of what is rape, the best way to support victims, and what bystanders should do are still evolving. Acknowledging this doesn't diminish what happened to your sister, people's culpability, and the painful fallout that was injected into your own life, but I think understanding someone and the circumstantial complexities can be enormously helpful.
I would urge you to take your sister up on her therapy session offer. It could be very helpful for both of you. There is a lot of pain, anger, and confusion in your question. It's clear that you love your sister, but also the things that happened to her and her own actions have affected you adversely and deeply. Ideally, that first session could be the first step to healing those old wounds and building a stronger relationship with your sister, regardless of whom she is dating. Best of luck to you and her!
posted by katemcd at 8:01 AM on January 16, 2016
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I understand that you are angry.
Some kind of mediated session with a therapist might be really great, actually, but I wouldn't do it with your own therapist. Your relationship with your own therapist shouldn't be expanded in that way - instead, ask your therapist for a recommendation for another person to help you work this out with your sister. That might really, really help.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 7:23 AM on January 15, 2016