Pick up the Slack or (Potentially) Let the Children Suffer?
January 10, 2016 2:45 PM
I have been dating a man with three children (10, 6, & 3). His ex-wife relies on him tremendously. Should he continue to pick up her slack, or allow the kids to suffer/force her to pull her weight?
He goes to her house early each weekday, helps get the kids ready, feeds them breakfast (brings his own supplies, as she won't allow him to use "hers"), and takes them to school/daycare. He is also routinely asked to take them overnight because she, "Just can't handle them tonight." If anyone is sick, she asks him to take the child to the doctor and stay home with them no matter which parent is "in charge" according to the court ordered schedule.
Obviously, we both want what's best for the children. I don't begrudge the extra he does for them. However, it's a fine line between taking care of them, and allowing her to control him by masking it as something "for the kids".
He's fed up, but doesn't want the kids to suffer. He says he knows that she won't get them to school on time/they won't get breakfast/whatever. He wants her to take over the responsibilities she should be doing, but without major consequences for the children.
I haven't brought the situation up with him, as it's between them. He asked me for advice, and I'm looking for ideas on ways I hadn't even considered. Any suggestions on how best to get the situation fixed?
He goes to her house early each weekday, helps get the kids ready, feeds them breakfast (brings his own supplies, as she won't allow him to use "hers"), and takes them to school/daycare. He is also routinely asked to take them overnight because she, "Just can't handle them tonight." If anyone is sick, she asks him to take the child to the doctor and stay home with them no matter which parent is "in charge" according to the court ordered schedule.
Obviously, we both want what's best for the children. I don't begrudge the extra he does for them. However, it's a fine line between taking care of them, and allowing her to control him by masking it as something "for the kids".
He's fed up, but doesn't want the kids to suffer. He says he knows that she won't get them to school on time/they won't get breakfast/whatever. He wants her to take over the responsibilities she should be doing, but without major consequences for the children.
I haven't brought the situation up with him, as it's between them. He asked me for advice, and I'm looking for ideas on ways I hadn't even considered. Any suggestions on how best to get the situation fixed?
First thought I had was, "wrong person asking the question." If this grinds on you now, pull the plug on the relationship because it won't change. This is how they interact, this is how they will always interact.
No matter what the real reasons are, these folks find this arrangement good for them, and in all the years they've been separated, there's been no change. Do not think you can come in and change things, even if you think it would be better. Step back. WAY back.
If he complains simply say to him, "this is how you and Tina have arranged it. If you want it to change, you have to change it." Then walk away, because it's not going to change.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:57 PM on January 10, 2016
No matter what the real reasons are, these folks find this arrangement good for them, and in all the years they've been separated, there's been no change. Do not think you can come in and change things, even if you think it would be better. Step back. WAY back.
If he complains simply say to him, "this is how you and Tina have arranged it. If you want it to change, you have to change it." Then walk away, because it's not going to change.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:57 PM on January 10, 2016
He needs to be keeping a record of every single day he goes over, every single sick day he covers at her request, and every single non-parity expense he covers. Then he needs to go for sole custody. That is the only way to resolve this without hurting the children.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:57 PM on January 10, 2016
posted by DarlingBri at 2:57 PM on January 10, 2016
@Ruthless Bunny: Doesn't grind on me at all because it doesn't affect me. I figure if the kids are being taken care of, and he doesn't mind doing it then it's all good.
"If he complains simply say to him, "this is how you and Tina have arranged it. If you want it to change, you have to change it." Then walk away, because it's not going to change."
Love this!
posted by TauLepton at 3:00 PM on January 10, 2016
"If he complains simply say to him, "this is how you and Tina have arranged it. If you want it to change, you have to change it." Then walk away, because it's not going to change."
Love this!
posted by TauLepton at 3:00 PM on January 10, 2016
@roomthreeseventeen - Actually, that's not his job. It is only because he documents via text messages that she can't later take him to court for parental interference and win. Parenting time is taken VERY seriously by the courts. If she didn't feed them breakfast, took them to school late, and didn't ask him for help then there is nothing he could do. Absolutely nothing.
posted by TauLepton at 3:03 PM on January 10, 2016
posted by TauLepton at 3:03 PM on January 10, 2016
He goes to her house early each weekday, helps get the kids ready, feeds them breakfast (brings his own supplies, as she won't allow him to use "hers"), and takes them to school/daycare.
You don't mention school pickups and dinner, so presumably mom does those? And breakfast at the weekends? So he's actually doing 50% of school runs and less than 50% of meals.
He is also routinely asked to take them overnight
Is "routinely" more than half of all nights?
My point is, unless he is legitimately doing more than 50% of all stuff related to childcare, you can't really call it "doing extra". Until then it's just parenting.
If anyone is sick, she asks him to take the child to the doctor and stay home with them no matter which parent is "in charge"
Without knowing the work circumstances this is impossible to judge. Are her work flexible enough to allow random leave for child sickness? Can she afford unpaid leave if they are? Same for the dad.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:08 PM on January 10, 2016
You don't mention school pickups and dinner, so presumably mom does those? And breakfast at the weekends? So he's actually doing 50% of school runs and less than 50% of meals.
He is also routinely asked to take them overnight
Is "routinely" more than half of all nights?
My point is, unless he is legitimately doing more than 50% of all stuff related to childcare, you can't really call it "doing extra". Until then it's just parenting.
If anyone is sick, she asks him to take the child to the doctor and stay home with them no matter which parent is "in charge"
Without knowing the work circumstances this is impossible to judge. Are her work flexible enough to allow random leave for child sickness? Can she afford unpaid leave if they are? Same for the dad.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:08 PM on January 10, 2016
I think what the OP is referring to as "extra" means "not adhering to the court ordered schedule."
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:12 PM on January 10, 2016
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:12 PM on January 10, 2016
Your boyfriend is dealing with a classic separated-parent dilemma. My girlfriend is in the same kind of situation—she just said to me recently, "His unwillingness to parent is one of the reasons I split up with him, and I'm still doing everything, only now I am doing it at two houses instead of just one." My ex-girlfriend was faced with the dilemma of either doing school mornings much like your boyfriend is, or risk her son losing his place in a private school he really needed to stay in, because of her ex's lack of concern about promptness and other bourgeois hang-ups.
Something that she is working on is sorting out what the kids really need versus what they can get by without. If her ex doesn't do laundry and the kids go to school in yesterday's clothes, well, maybe that's a thing she needs to just let happen. On the other hand, when her husband promised and failed to get some repairs taken care of on his au pair's car, my friend ended up getting it done, because that's the car her kids get driven around in all the time.
So, if he asks for your advice, that kind of boundary is something you could maybe help him think about. What can he pull back from without truly risking their well-being?
Also, what I do with my girlfriend a lot, is say things like, "Wow, that's a heck of a dilemma," and "That seems really hard," and "Of course you're concerned about your children!" and "I can understand why you're so frustrated."
posted by not that girl at 3:19 PM on January 10, 2016
Something that she is working on is sorting out what the kids really need versus what they can get by without. If her ex doesn't do laundry and the kids go to school in yesterday's clothes, well, maybe that's a thing she needs to just let happen. On the other hand, when her husband promised and failed to get some repairs taken care of on his au pair's car, my friend ended up getting it done, because that's the car her kids get driven around in all the time.
So, if he asks for your advice, that kind of boundary is something you could maybe help him think about. What can he pull back from without truly risking their well-being?
Also, what I do with my girlfriend a lot, is say things like, "Wow, that's a heck of a dilemma," and "That seems really hard," and "Of course you're concerned about your children!" and "I can understand why you're so frustrated."
posted by not that girl at 3:19 PM on January 10, 2016
Look, there are dozens of ways to co-parent and they need to work for everyone involved.
Also we don't know what the situation is - maybe Dad is far more flexible in terms of his work than Mom is and it makes more sense for him to do the sick days. I know that legally when the kids are at Mom's, she is basically supposed to be like a single parent, but many people just sort of work it out with each other. I've been told that most people have a more flexible plan than what the co-parenting agreement actually says. Co-parenting agreements are written assuming that parents cannot communicate with each other (worst case).
Also maybe Mom is really really overwhelmed. I cannot imagine how tough it would be to handle 3 young kids, especially one being a toddler. At least your boyfriend has you around as a second set of hands. Think of how much easier it is for him to go grocery shopping, deal with an emergency, etc. Even if you're not actively parenting, you are an adult human whom can be trusted to keep an eye on a child. He is very lucky.
I'd guess by the kids' ages that this is a relatively new co-parenting arrangement. Maybe the two of them need to get together with a mediator and work through their co-parenting agreement together again?
Those above that say he should try to get full custody probably aren't aware of how these things usually work. As far as I understand, 50/50 custody is assumed and unless one parent is abusive, them losing custody is next-to-impossible. If it makes Dad feel better to document all the times that he goes over there, that's cool. And yes, he probably should in case shit hits the fan later. But documenting it assuming that it will go somewhere in terms of custody is futile. (IANAL)
I think that he could consider completely uninvolving himself in what happens at Mommy's house, with rare exceptions [mom has the flu terribly]; if they kids don't get to school on time, that's not his problem. And I bet that she'd get something in their bellies even if it isn't gourmet. I know it sucks, but it isn't the end of the world if she isn't parenting TOTALLY AWESOMELY. And the morning is so hard regardless. Moreover, I know parents that don't brush the kid's teeth on their time or let the kid watch TV the whole weekend or only feed them Doritos. It sucks, but the other parent can do nothing about it.
This disengagement would probably make him feel better about the time that he is spending on this stuff, but it is possible that the kids will suffer. He needs to decide where he wants to stand on this front. He needs to have a better measure for what is "not letting the kids suffer" and where he needs to draw the line. And it would probably be best if he expresses this to his ex clearly, possibly with a therapist or mediator involved.
Also he should encourage his older kids to start taking responsibility for themselves. The oldest especially is capable of preparing her own breakfast and getting ready for school. The middle one should be able to do so to some degree as well. He should be working on these skills when the kids are with him. If Mommy is screwing up, kids should be the one that are handling it to the best of their ability. Example: Kid says "I didn't turn in my field trip permission slip. Mommy didn't sign it." Daddy shouldn't text Mommy, but instead, hand phone to Kid who then calls Mommy and says, "Mommy, where's my field trip permission slip?"
I'd also suggest that you, girlfriend of Dad, read the Co-Parenting Handbook. But you're totally right when you say that this is between them. And honestly, when you're dating this man, you are actually dating him, his kids, and his ex; and his relationship with his ex. If you stay with him, you're going to be dealing with her regularly (weekly, daily) for the next 15 years and then occasionally for the rest of your life. I get a vibe that you're a little frustrated that on his non-parenting time that you'd like more from him. I just don't see that being in the cards right now, especially with the kids being as young as they are.
posted by k8t at 3:26 PM on January 10, 2016
Also we don't know what the situation is - maybe Dad is far more flexible in terms of his work than Mom is and it makes more sense for him to do the sick days. I know that legally when the kids are at Mom's, she is basically supposed to be like a single parent, but many people just sort of work it out with each other. I've been told that most people have a more flexible plan than what the co-parenting agreement actually says. Co-parenting agreements are written assuming that parents cannot communicate with each other (worst case).
Also maybe Mom is really really overwhelmed. I cannot imagine how tough it would be to handle 3 young kids, especially one being a toddler. At least your boyfriend has you around as a second set of hands. Think of how much easier it is for him to go grocery shopping, deal with an emergency, etc. Even if you're not actively parenting, you are an adult human whom can be trusted to keep an eye on a child. He is very lucky.
I'd guess by the kids' ages that this is a relatively new co-parenting arrangement. Maybe the two of them need to get together with a mediator and work through their co-parenting agreement together again?
Those above that say he should try to get full custody probably aren't aware of how these things usually work. As far as I understand, 50/50 custody is assumed and unless one parent is abusive, them losing custody is next-to-impossible. If it makes Dad feel better to document all the times that he goes over there, that's cool. And yes, he probably should in case shit hits the fan later. But documenting it assuming that it will go somewhere in terms of custody is futile. (IANAL)
I think that he could consider completely uninvolving himself in what happens at Mommy's house, with rare exceptions [mom has the flu terribly]; if they kids don't get to school on time, that's not his problem. And I bet that she'd get something in their bellies even if it isn't gourmet. I know it sucks, but it isn't the end of the world if she isn't parenting TOTALLY AWESOMELY. And the morning is so hard regardless. Moreover, I know parents that don't brush the kid's teeth on their time or let the kid watch TV the whole weekend or only feed them Doritos. It sucks, but the other parent can do nothing about it.
This disengagement would probably make him feel better about the time that he is spending on this stuff, but it is possible that the kids will suffer. He needs to decide where he wants to stand on this front. He needs to have a better measure for what is "not letting the kids suffer" and where he needs to draw the line. And it would probably be best if he expresses this to his ex clearly, possibly with a therapist or mediator involved.
Also he should encourage his older kids to start taking responsibility for themselves. The oldest especially is capable of preparing her own breakfast and getting ready for school. The middle one should be able to do so to some degree as well. He should be working on these skills when the kids are with him. If Mommy is screwing up, kids should be the one that are handling it to the best of their ability. Example: Kid says "I didn't turn in my field trip permission slip. Mommy didn't sign it." Daddy shouldn't text Mommy, but instead, hand phone to Kid who then calls Mommy and says, "Mommy, where's my field trip permission slip?"
I'd also suggest that you, girlfriend of Dad, read the Co-Parenting Handbook. But you're totally right when you say that this is between them. And honestly, when you're dating this man, you are actually dating him, his kids, and his ex; and his relationship with his ex. If you stay with him, you're going to be dealing with her regularly (weekly, daily) for the next 15 years and then occasionally for the rest of your life. I get a vibe that you're a little frustrated that on his non-parenting time that you'd like more from him. I just don't see that being in the cards right now, especially with the kids being as young as they are.
posted by k8t at 3:26 PM on January 10, 2016
Maybe he should see if she wants to give him full custody?
posted by jbenben at 3:52 PM on January 10, 2016
posted by jbenben at 3:52 PM on January 10, 2016
His ex-wife doesn't rely on him. His children rely on him.
You mentioned that he's there every weekday - meaning she has the kids every weeknight. Does he have them all weekend, every weekend? Otherwise, it looks like she's more than pulling her share of the load. It's really easy to make assumptions that the other person isn't doing enough, but it's nuanced. I always took off to take my nieces to the doctor because my salaried job was more flexible than my sister's (who worked hourly).
If he believes the kids are not safe or cared for appropriately then he should document and pursue physical custody. If he's not inclined to pursue physical custody, then just recognize it as what it is. Nothing in marriage, divorce or parenting is exactly 50/50. Do what you can do because it's good for the kids. Whether it's good/bad/indifferent for the ex is not material.
posted by 26.2 at 4:17 PM on January 10, 2016
You mentioned that he's there every weekday - meaning she has the kids every weeknight. Does he have them all weekend, every weekend? Otherwise, it looks like she's more than pulling her share of the load. It's really easy to make assumptions that the other person isn't doing enough, but it's nuanced. I always took off to take my nieces to the doctor because my salaried job was more flexible than my sister's (who worked hourly).
If he believes the kids are not safe or cared for appropriately then he should document and pursue physical custody. If he's not inclined to pursue physical custody, then just recognize it as what it is. Nothing in marriage, divorce or parenting is exactly 50/50. Do what you can do because it's good for the kids. Whether it's good/bad/indifferent for the ex is not material.
posted by 26.2 at 4:17 PM on January 10, 2016
The answer is never "(potentially) let the children suffer."
posted by Linnee at 4:18 PM on January 10, 2016
posted by Linnee at 4:18 PM on January 10, 2016
Clarifications and Answers:
They have a weekly swap schedule. Friday night through the following Thursday night. He has them one week, and she has them the next. When I said he takes them each weekday morning, I was referring to "her" week as an addition to "his".
No one's jobs are more flexible than the other. He vented to me his frustrations this past week when he told Mom no (for the first time) to taking off another day. She ended up taking the little one to work with her, and it wasn't an issue.
I too am a divorced parent. I know all abouthorrible former spouses, how the law interprets most everything, and co-parenting issues. They are new to this, and while I'm not that much more experienced, I do have a few more years under my belt as a single mom. It's tiring, but millions of us do it because we have to. I can't be a when-it's-convenient parent.
I suggested meeting Mom after he and I had been dating a few months. She refused until recently. Now I get text messages about how she's glad I'm around the kids because I'm "such a wonderful, kind lady". (He thinks I worked some sort of Jedi mind trick on her.) It was only after this meeting that I was able to be around the kids without setting off WWIII. We had decided it wasn't worth the fight for now. The 10 yo was being pulled in the middle, and I/we nipped that in the bud after one explosion. Using the child as a tool is a no go. So, he didn't/doesn't have an extra set of hands, nor an additional set of eyes.
After school, either he picks them up/leaves work early and makes it up the next day, or Mom's parents get the kids. (To my knowledge, she has not even met the daycare provider beyond the first interview.)
I agree with k8t in that he needs to decide his own comfort level. not that girl nailed it with, "What can he pull back from without truly risking their well-being?"
Thanks everyone!
posted by TauLepton at 5:53 PM on January 10, 2016
They have a weekly swap schedule. Friday night through the following Thursday night. He has them one week, and she has them the next. When I said he takes them each weekday morning, I was referring to "her" week as an addition to "his".
No one's jobs are more flexible than the other. He vented to me his frustrations this past week when he told Mom no (for the first time) to taking off another day. She ended up taking the little one to work with her, and it wasn't an issue.
I too am a divorced parent. I know all about
I suggested meeting Mom after he and I had been dating a few months. She refused until recently. Now I get text messages about how she's glad I'm around the kids because I'm "such a wonderful, kind lady". (He thinks I worked some sort of Jedi mind trick on her.) It was only after this meeting that I was able to be around the kids without setting off WWIII. We had decided it wasn't worth the fight for now. The 10 yo was being pulled in the middle, and I/we nipped that in the bud after one explosion. Using the child as a tool is a no go. So, he didn't/doesn't have an extra set of hands, nor an additional set of eyes.
After school, either he picks them up/leaves work early and makes it up the next day, or Mom's parents get the kids. (To my knowledge, she has not even met the daycare provider beyond the first interview.)
I agree with k8t in that he needs to decide his own comfort level. not that girl nailed it with, "What can he pull back from without truly risking their well-being?"
Thanks everyone!
posted by TauLepton at 5:53 PM on January 10, 2016
Is "routinely" more than half of all nights?
My point is, unless he is legitimately doing more than 50% of all stuff related to childcare, you can't really call it "doing extra". Until then it's just parenting.
At least one but more often 2-3 nights during Mom's time in addition to his time.
(Again, I'm thrilled he gets the extra time with the kids. He'll mention saying no, and I'll tell him to take any time he can get. They are only with us for so long afterall.)
posted by TauLepton at 5:59 PM on January 10, 2016
My point is, unless he is legitimately doing more than 50% of all stuff related to childcare, you can't really call it "doing extra". Until then it's just parenting.
At least one but more often 2-3 nights during Mom's time in addition to his time.
(Again, I'm thrilled he gets the extra time with the kids. He'll mention saying no, and I'll tell him to take any time he can get. They are only with us for so long afterall.)
posted by TauLepton at 5:59 PM on January 10, 2016
Is a week on, week off schedule really working for them? I can imagine that being intense - to parent for a week without a break. As far as I know (and I don't know much), that sort of schedule isn't the norm for elementary aged kids anymore. Maybe looking at a different schedule would be easier on everyone and reduce the days he is needed at her house? 2-2-5 for example. Bringing in an expert to help them figure our what is best for their kids' wide age range would be a good idea.
But if changing the schedule isn't in the cards, perhaps he needs to tell her "Ex, we need to talk about our co-parenting. Of course you should contact me if there is an emergency, as per our co-parenting agreement, but this weekly helping out on your days cannot be a regular thing anymore. You need some systems - laying out clothes the night before, packing lunches the night before, etc. - so that you can manage by yourself in the morning. Alternatively, asking your folks or a mother's helper is a possibility. But we need to more firmly establish that Mommy is at Mommy's house and Daddy is at Daddy's house.
Similarly, let's assume that the kids will get sick on an evenly distributed schedule. If Maddie is sick and can't go to daycare, whichever one of us is on duty either needs to take the day off or hire a sitter. It isn't within the bounds of our parenting agreement to use eachother for such care situations. We need to be fair to each other.
Of course I love the kids dearly, but in the next stage of our separate homes means that we need to establish boundaries.
Of course on my "off days" I will attend the kids' ballet recitals and baseball games, as per our parenting agreement, but our off days, for both of us, really need to be off days. "
posted by k8t at 7:22 PM on January 10, 2016
But if changing the schedule isn't in the cards, perhaps he needs to tell her "Ex, we need to talk about our co-parenting. Of course you should contact me if there is an emergency, as per our co-parenting agreement, but this weekly helping out on your days cannot be a regular thing anymore. You need some systems - laying out clothes the night before, packing lunches the night before, etc. - so that you can manage by yourself in the morning. Alternatively, asking your folks or a mother's helper is a possibility. But we need to more firmly establish that Mommy is at Mommy's house and Daddy is at Daddy's house.
Similarly, let's assume that the kids will get sick on an evenly distributed schedule. If Maddie is sick and can't go to daycare, whichever one of us is on duty either needs to take the day off or hire a sitter. It isn't within the bounds of our parenting agreement to use eachother for such care situations. We need to be fair to each other.
Of course I love the kids dearly, but in the next stage of our separate homes means that we need to establish boundaries.
Of course on my "off days" I will attend the kids' ballet recitals and baseball games, as per our parenting agreement, but our off days, for both of us, really need to be off days. "
posted by k8t at 7:22 PM on January 10, 2016
Some people will never step up while it looks like situations are under control or even as long as another person is willing to sort things out for them.
Certain gaps will only get filled when they are actually gaps and as long as someone keeps stepping in to sort it out, there won't be any apparent gaps for the other person to fill. The difficulty with allowing gaps is that you have to let things slide and when it comes to parenting, it's not always something you want to do.
So, even though the mother may not be very good with some things, she may never get much better as long as the father keeps stepping in.
I think choices need to be made about what is just a matter of differing parenting styles and what is a genuine this-can't-be-let-go situation. It's difficult stuff and the mythical "reasonable person" can be helpful to evoke when trying to work out what is OK to let slide and what isn't. It's also good to remember that many (especially older or poor or both) people grew up with vastly less input from parents than what is seen as necessary these days and those things are not the reason I've spent thousands on therapy. There were plenty of nights when my parents couldn't "handle" me and my siblings but they just got quietly drunk and we didn't even notice. I'm not saying that's good, it isn't, but neither did it traumatise us.
Notwithstanding the fact that every moment you can spend with your children is a good one, separated parents should stay out of each other's business as much as possible. The father should avoid taking on responsibilities while the kids are with the mother as much as he can. It sounds like he is a man of generous spirit, so it won't be a complete break, but less is more. For everyone involved.
posted by mewsic at 10:56 PM on January 10, 2016
Certain gaps will only get filled when they are actually gaps and as long as someone keeps stepping in to sort it out, there won't be any apparent gaps for the other person to fill. The difficulty with allowing gaps is that you have to let things slide and when it comes to parenting, it's not always something you want to do.
So, even though the mother may not be very good with some things, she may never get much better as long as the father keeps stepping in.
I think choices need to be made about what is just a matter of differing parenting styles and what is a genuine this-can't-be-let-go situation. It's difficult stuff and the mythical "reasonable person" can be helpful to evoke when trying to work out what is OK to let slide and what isn't. It's also good to remember that many (especially older or poor or both) people grew up with vastly less input from parents than what is seen as necessary these days and those things are not the reason I've spent thousands on therapy. There were plenty of nights when my parents couldn't "handle" me and my siblings but they just got quietly drunk and we didn't even notice. I'm not saying that's good, it isn't, but neither did it traumatise us.
Notwithstanding the fact that every moment you can spend with your children is a good one, separated parents should stay out of each other's business as much as possible. The father should avoid taking on responsibilities while the kids are with the mother as much as he can. It sounds like he is a man of generous spirit, so it won't be a complete break, but less is more. For everyone involved.
posted by mewsic at 10:56 PM on January 10, 2016
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Nope. He's their dad. If she asks him to do everything for the kids because she can't handle it, that's his job.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:56 PM on January 10, 2016