Are we not feminists?
December 13, 2015 1:05 PM Subscribe
I recently joined the board of my professional school women's organization (in a, for what it's worth, traditionally male dominated profession). Maybe I shouldn't have.
The group organizes lectures, has a mentor-matching service, and is generally a high profile group on campus. It is not a social organization (ie it doesn't exist just for women in our profession to get together and chat).
It's come to my attention from the very beginning of getting to know the rest of the new board members (who are all women, as am I) that many of them see the organization as a "club for people in our profession who happen to be women," rather than a "feminist club." To me it is absurd to be anything other than the latter, and I note that if our organization is not feminist, then there is no feminist presence at the school.
I am concerned about being labeled a radical and ostracized from the board, as well as by the idea of standing idly by while this opportunity (and significant resources) are squandered with no attention paid to actually addressing gender issues in our profession. My personality tends towards extremism and impassioned speech, and I am really at a loss as to how to toe the line and get the rest of the board on board with my ideas.
The main pushback I'm getting is that other members of the board have never experienced gender discrimination, and therefore don't think it's an important issue for the club to address. There seems to be a prominent rhetoric that by acknowledging or publicizing gender discrimination, we're "playing the victim" and alienating ourselves. How do you argue against this when you're dealing with people with whom you must engage (and can't just DTMFA)? I need succinct, respectful rejoinders to this -- as well as any words of wisdom you can share about similar situations you may have found yourself in in the past.
The group organizes lectures, has a mentor-matching service, and is generally a high profile group on campus. It is not a social organization (ie it doesn't exist just for women in our profession to get together and chat).
It's come to my attention from the very beginning of getting to know the rest of the new board members (who are all women, as am I) that many of them see the organization as a "club for people in our profession who happen to be women," rather than a "feminist club." To me it is absurd to be anything other than the latter, and I note that if our organization is not feminist, then there is no feminist presence at the school.
I am concerned about being labeled a radical and ostracized from the board, as well as by the idea of standing idly by while this opportunity (and significant resources) are squandered with no attention paid to actually addressing gender issues in our profession. My personality tends towards extremism and impassioned speech, and I am really at a loss as to how to toe the line and get the rest of the board on board with my ideas.
The main pushback I'm getting is that other members of the board have never experienced gender discrimination, and therefore don't think it's an important issue for the club to address. There seems to be a prominent rhetoric that by acknowledging or publicizing gender discrimination, we're "playing the victim" and alienating ourselves. How do you argue against this when you're dealing with people with whom you must engage (and can't just DTMFA)? I need succinct, respectful rejoinders to this -- as well as any words of wisdom you can share about similar situations you may have found yourself in in the past.
Best answer: There is little point at both parties launching opinions at one another. Survey your members about their experiences and expectations and use the hard data to steer the board. In other words, work on identified issues and not broadstroke agendas.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:15 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 1:15 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
What concrete problems are you trying to address that women experience in their professional life? Maybe focus on those instead of ideology.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:17 PM on December 13, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:17 PM on December 13, 2015 [23 favorites]
My advice would be to stick to very specific things you want the group to accomplish as opposed to "raising awareness." I don't know what field you're in so it's hard to give specific advice. I absolutely consider myself a Feminist with a capital F, but in law school even I found the constant activism to be exhausting and mostly consisted of a lot of loud angry people preaching to the choir.
So if you want to address the lack of women in your field, then try to organize a job fair just for women or some sort of outreach program. Maybe a mentorship program. You don't need to debate the merits of feminism when doing this. Side step the why and go straight for the how. The group is a tool, not a megaphone. Think of it as bipartisan coalition building. There are a lot of things people can agree are positive even if the reasons they think they are positive are different. A strong mentor program, that just happens to be all women, raises the profile of the group, increases membership and gets alumni involved. It also helps women support and build the careers of other women in a male dominated field, but you know, no reason to talk too much about that.
posted by whoaali at 1:23 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
So if you want to address the lack of women in your field, then try to organize a job fair just for women or some sort of outreach program. Maybe a mentorship program. You don't need to debate the merits of feminism when doing this. Side step the why and go straight for the how. The group is a tool, not a megaphone. Think of it as bipartisan coalition building. There are a lot of things people can agree are positive even if the reasons they think they are positive are different. A strong mentor program, that just happens to be all women, raises the profile of the group, increases membership and gets alumni involved. It also helps women support and build the careers of other women in a male dominated field, but you know, no reason to talk too much about that.
posted by whoaali at 1:23 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Not threadsitting, and loving a lot of the comments so far, but I do want to address this quickly:
Ultimately, you don't "win" in the professions by pointing out problems. You "win" by becoming a successful member of that profession, and then fixing problems.
While I recognize that I might win in that regard, a big problem in the field is that it is by no means a given that successful women in our profession go on to fix problems. In fact, a lot of them -- especially the ones who are vocal at our institution -- have become successful and then go on to deny the existence of gender discrimination, lecture young women in the field that in order to be successful we have to "just be one of the guys," and claim that women who struggle in the field do so because of having "poor attitudes." The profession suffers less from a dearth of women than from a dearth of people who are passionate about issues that disproportionately affect women (e.g. family leave, discrimination, and sexual harassment).
posted by telegraph at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ultimately, you don't "win" in the professions by pointing out problems. You "win" by becoming a successful member of that profession, and then fixing problems.
While I recognize that I might win in that regard, a big problem in the field is that it is by no means a given that successful women in our profession go on to fix problems. In fact, a lot of them -- especially the ones who are vocal at our institution -- have become successful and then go on to deny the existence of gender discrimination, lecture young women in the field that in order to be successful we have to "just be one of the guys," and claim that women who struggle in the field do so because of having "poor attitudes." The profession suffers less from a dearth of women than from a dearth of people who are passionate about issues that disproportionately affect women (e.g. family leave, discrimination, and sexual harassment).
posted by telegraph at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: You're dealing with internalized misogyny. These are women who've scrapped their way up, made whatever compromises they've felt necessary to do so, and think other women can and should do the same. They lack a sociological imagination. They're defending their life choices.
(There was a story on the Blue not long ago, about a top-performing woman [in business? Science? I think business] who felt this way and recanted once she got pregnant, maybe someone remembers who that was about?)
I think you should either resign from this board or agree to work within its parameters, and connect with other groups that work explicitly from within a feminist framework.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:39 PM on December 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
(There was a story on the Blue not long ago, about a top-performing woman [in business? Science? I think business] who felt this way and recanted once she got pregnant, maybe someone remembers who that was about?)
I think you should either resign from this board or agree to work within its parameters, and connect with other groups that work explicitly from within a feminist framework.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:39 PM on December 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
I've never seen these attitudes in my male dominated field. Women are typically incredibly supportive and helpful. There is an attitude of we like men, we chose to work with then a lot and we don't need to alienate our bosses and coworkers. What you describe sounds like ignorant jerkism. I tend to ignore and avoid ignorant jerks and deal with things on an issue by issue basis. Changing other people's idiologies and attitudes is hard, even more so at work. Again, speak your voice and support things on an issue by issue basis.
posted by Kalmya at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Kalmya at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I suggest instead patience, empathy, encouragement, and engagement. I suggest you focus on working on the professional development that they want to do and build trust and connection. As a woman in tech there's nothing worse than hearing all day about how women just aren't technical enough and then going to a women in tech meeting where all you do is talk instead of building skills and practicing together. It makes me think they aren't really serious about succeeding and just want to vent. It's also important to note that the fact that the group is all women is often radical enough to cause a shift in the mood of the room. I play in co-ed hockey leagues and write code with mostly men. Whenever I join an all woman team, the shift in the feeling of ownership and empowerment is deep. Everyone internalizes the reality that they are a "real" scientist/engineer/business person/whatever in a fundamental way. Women start leading and taking charge both because they can and because they must. There aren't any men around and things are getting done and done well. This is more effective than talking about feminism, although I agree with you that that conversation does have to happen eventually.
Being a minority makes you very, very wary of expressing your true feelings about anything. To anyone. It's not that there aren't women who agree with you; it's that a lot of women have to be drawn out into admitting that this stuff goes on in their professional lives. There's often real trauma there that they don't want to deal with, that impassioned protests of ideology makes more disturbing and not less. There's a lot of denial that goes on, especially when one is young in the field and inexperienced. I doubt that these women have never experienced discrimination. But I'm not surprised that they don't want to talk about it, right now. If you play on safe ground with them, they'll open up to you eventually and you can do some real talk about feminism.
Regarding your follow-up: I agree that having visible, successful members call out discrimination for what it is is vital. The denial is a real problem. At the same time I think it's really difficult to get people to let go of the defense mechanisms that helped them survive in more difficult times. I think there needs to be trust and a real life experience of the opposite before that can happen.
posted by rhythm and booze at 1:46 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
Being a minority makes you very, very wary of expressing your true feelings about anything. To anyone. It's not that there aren't women who agree with you; it's that a lot of women have to be drawn out into admitting that this stuff goes on in their professional lives. There's often real trauma there that they don't want to deal with, that impassioned protests of ideology makes more disturbing and not less. There's a lot of denial that goes on, especially when one is young in the field and inexperienced. I doubt that these women have never experienced discrimination. But I'm not surprised that they don't want to talk about it, right now. If you play on safe ground with them, they'll open up to you eventually and you can do some real talk about feminism.
Regarding your follow-up: I agree that having visible, successful members call out discrimination for what it is is vital. The denial is a real problem. At the same time I think it's really difficult to get people to let go of the defense mechanisms that helped them survive in more difficult times. I think there needs to be trust and a real life experience of the opposite before that can happen.
posted by rhythm and booze at 1:46 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Which prominent women in your field do talk about issues such as harassment and family leave? Can you get one of them as a speaker?
posted by yarntheory at 1:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by yarntheory at 1:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Based on your update, I greatly sympathize with where you're coming from but you're basically asking to do something that is akin to converting someone to a new religion or bringing them over to a new political party. I would start a new group.
You're never going to make feminists out of a group of women who have actively chosen to reject feminism. Maybe a few will follow you to a new group or be won over in time, but you need to start a new group.
posted by whoaali at 1:50 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
You're never going to make feminists out of a group of women who have actively chosen to reject feminism. Maybe a few will follow you to a new group or be won over in time, but you need to start a new group.
posted by whoaali at 1:50 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
I agree with whoaali. If there is "no feminist presence" at your school then you need to start a group with specifically that objective.
posted by Brittanie at 1:53 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brittanie at 1:53 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
An experience here: a decade ago - or maybe a bit more - succesfull women in my male-dominated field did not want to be associated with feminism. They would, however show up when a younger group arranged seminars and exhibitions celebrating women's achievements. I'm certain that the work of that younger group has boosted and hastened the appreciation of women practitioners within my field, to a degree where I believe there will be no more discrimination within the coming decade. [does happy dance]
When I started, we were two women in a class of 24, and the other woman fell out of school because of mental health issues. While the few women of my mother's generation who had gone through grad-school were generally feminist, there was a backlash when I studied, and I was the only person the elders acknowledged when they made a feminist publication at the time of my graduation. So I was overjoyed and proud when a new generation of women stepped up and made real changes through deliberate and well-planned actions and activities.
posted by mumimor at 2:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
When I started, we were two women in a class of 24, and the other woman fell out of school because of mental health issues. While the few women of my mother's generation who had gone through grad-school were generally feminist, there was a backlash when I studied, and I was the only person the elders acknowledged when they made a feminist publication at the time of my graduation. So I was overjoyed and proud when a new generation of women stepped up and made real changes through deliberate and well-planned actions and activities.
posted by mumimor at 2:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Being a minority makes you very, very wary of expressing your true feelings about anything. To anyone. It's not that there aren't women who agree with you; it's that a lot of women have to be drawn out into admitting that this stuff goes on in their professional lives. There's often real trauma there that they don't want to deal with, that impassioned protests of ideology makes more disturbing and not less. There's a lot of denial that goes on, especially when one is young in the field and inexperienced. I doubt that these women have never experienced discrimination. But I'm not surprised that they don't want to talk about it, right now. If you play on safe ground with them, they'll open up to you eventually and you can do some real talk about feminism.
THIS THIS THIS. You are working with people who have a lot to lose if they go along with what you're proposing. I don't talk frankly to people I don't know fairly well about how I feel about being a woman in tech, not in a professional context (which school is). Where is it likely to get me? You never know who's going to peg you as a whiner or a bitch and freeze you out of an opportunity. Right now these women see their involvement and leadership in this club as something they can put on their resume with pride and very little concern that it'll mess up their future. If it becomes associated with some kind of bra-burning scary feminism in the minds of male alumni of your program they're not going to feel that way any more. It only takes one guy to be reviewing a resume and wrinkle his nose - "Oh, she was vice-president of that club?" and you don't get an interview. And nobody ever tells you why. This is not fair but it's the way things are. It is not at all okay for you to barge into this group and say, hey, I know you have something you like here and it's working for you, but I think you need to be taking more political risks in this professional organization of yours.
In my own personal male-dominated field, there's the additional wrinkle that the lion's share of the women are women of color, and I'm white. I feel like there are conversations going on around me in half a dozen languages about what it's like to be a woman in my field in which I am never going to be included.
For what it's worth, mentor-matching can be a huge force for feminist good. I can take personal credit for keeping more than one woman in computer science through my work with MentorNet, and I credit a mentor through the same program with helping me through a rough time. I don't know why you dismiss that - to me mentoring younger women through the first few years of suddenly being thrown into a male-dominated environment is one of the purest expressions of sisterhood I can think of.
posted by town of cats at 2:12 PM on December 13, 2015 [25 favorites]
THIS THIS THIS. You are working with people who have a lot to lose if they go along with what you're proposing. I don't talk frankly to people I don't know fairly well about how I feel about being a woman in tech, not in a professional context (which school is). Where is it likely to get me? You never know who's going to peg you as a whiner or a bitch and freeze you out of an opportunity. Right now these women see their involvement and leadership in this club as something they can put on their resume with pride and very little concern that it'll mess up their future. If it becomes associated with some kind of bra-burning scary feminism in the minds of male alumni of your program they're not going to feel that way any more. It only takes one guy to be reviewing a resume and wrinkle his nose - "Oh, she was vice-president of that club?" and you don't get an interview. And nobody ever tells you why. This is not fair but it's the way things are. It is not at all okay for you to barge into this group and say, hey, I know you have something you like here and it's working for you, but I think you need to be taking more political risks in this professional organization of yours.
In my own personal male-dominated field, there's the additional wrinkle that the lion's share of the women are women of color, and I'm white. I feel like there are conversations going on around me in half a dozen languages about what it's like to be a woman in my field in which I am never going to be included.
For what it's worth, mentor-matching can be a huge force for feminist good. I can take personal credit for keeping more than one woman in computer science through my work with MentorNet, and I credit a mentor through the same program with helping me through a rough time. I don't know why you dismiss that - to me mentoring younger women through the first few years of suddenly being thrown into a male-dominated environment is one of the purest expressions of sisterhood I can think of.
posted by town of cats at 2:12 PM on December 13, 2015 [25 favorites]
Best answer: At my law school, there are two separate groups.
One is a professional network for women that deals only with feminist issues in so far as they deal with non-intersectional women and their desire to get and keep jobs in law. The other is a feminist collective that deals with more intersectional issues, fights for policy change both within and outside of the profession, etc. At the membership level, there is significant cross-over, since lots of women law students join both, but they have completely different executive boards and don't really do any activities together.
So, certainly one option if you don't like what that group is doing -- which is a worthwhile function, even if it isn't the most worthwhile function it could have -- is to try to create a separate group that will allow for more focused social action.
posted by jacquilynne at 2:31 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
One is a professional network for women that deals only with feminist issues in so far as they deal with non-intersectional women and their desire to get and keep jobs in law. The other is a feminist collective that deals with more intersectional issues, fights for policy change both within and outside of the profession, etc. At the membership level, there is significant cross-over, since lots of women law students join both, but they have completely different executive boards and don't really do any activities together.
So, certainly one option if you don't like what that group is doing -- which is a worthwhile function, even if it isn't the most worthwhile function it could have -- is to try to create a separate group that will allow for more focused social action.
posted by jacquilynne at 2:31 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
This rejoinder isn't necessarily succinct, but you might ask why a woman-focused organization is needed at all if gender discrimination is not an issue.
posted by metasarah at 2:51 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by metasarah at 2:51 PM on December 13, 2015
Don't worry about the label for the thing, worry about the thing. Work with the people to make something wonderful that helps women.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:33 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 3:33 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: One of the best feminists I know, who has operated in many different frameworks, including male-dominated professions, feminist-focused professions, and women-focused spaces, always told me this: "You don't get anywhere if you don't focus on the relationships. Focus on your relationships first, and then see if the energy works from there."
I understand very much where you are coming from, but it is better to acknowledge that they have their own histories for why the organization does not want to do feminism. They are an institution that has benefited from staying there and maintaining their moderate-conservative ideology, while feminists and marginalized people often burn-out and have trouble maintaining such institutions. That is a reality that keeps replicating itself over and over again at different institutional levels, such as the university and the workplace.
Therefore, this is different territory that you would have to approach, that has their own ways. It is a much wiser idea to first get to know them and ask, and share histories for where they are coming from. Have you talked to the board of directors and gotten to know them? The key term is, you are entering someone else's territory and their own modalities, and you aren't looking for a collaboration - you want to change up an entire environment. They may not be able, or even want to do this, because they don't have the history or organizing training/capacity to even do professional development in a feminist way, especially because a lot of feminist organizations seem to work in a 'direct action' manner. It takes positive exposure to think that this is agood idea. They also could have different conceptions of how feminism looks, and an impassioned, extremist person shouting at them to change things is not going to change their minds, because it is not worth the trouble. They aren't going to see the benefits of what your knowledge is going to bring, unless you can get across to them in a way that would make them feel 'comfortable' enough to participate and share, and would be at benefit to them and the organization. AKA 'not threatening.'
My personality tends towards extremism and impassioned speech, and I am really at a loss as to how to toe the line and get the rest of the board on board with my ideas.
I've been there - when you are so fired up and empowered to do radical things, it's easy to go "Omg why isn't anyone else going with me?!!" But other people have different survival patterns for how to deal with oppression, and ultimately, talking with them as people in a cool-headed manner is what gets across to them. I've transitioned and cultivated a cool-headed perspective mostly because I have seen how my impassioned, extremist personality in the past has alienated people, and ultimately threw a lot of fire at talking about change, rather than really thinking about what was a sustainable personality for me to do my work. I also have had to relax a lot, so I can keep myself sustainable, but I am sharing my history to let you know where I am at. (But my impassioned perosnality is still in me, but in different forms.) There are also a lot of people who have not been lucky enough to get the support, resources, and privilege to learn about feminism in depth the way I do, and not have the freedom to be as angry as I have.
So it's good to also look at the source of your personality and fire, and see the type of energy and environment you truly want to participate in. Is this organization even a match for you, and if it isn't, do you want to be involved with it to the point it may be out of sync for you and your needs?
It actually hurts me to write this, because I do believe most organizations will benefit from an explicitly intersectional feminist perspective, but for various reasons, they will not do so. This may be related to the ideologies of the group, the funding history, or the intra-politics. Depending on how many resources and energy you have, you may be better off joining this group and seeing how they do things and glean useful knowledges, and then propose intersectional feminist models of how to do mentorship and networking, either within the group as some events, or your own club all together. But your own club all together may lead to burnout.
posted by yueliang at 3:52 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I understand very much where you are coming from, but it is better to acknowledge that they have their own histories for why the organization does not want to do feminism. They are an institution that has benefited from staying there and maintaining their moderate-conservative ideology, while feminists and marginalized people often burn-out and have trouble maintaining such institutions. That is a reality that keeps replicating itself over and over again at different institutional levels, such as the university and the workplace.
Therefore, this is different territory that you would have to approach, that has their own ways. It is a much wiser idea to first get to know them and ask, and share histories for where they are coming from. Have you talked to the board of directors and gotten to know them? The key term is, you are entering someone else's territory and their own modalities, and you aren't looking for a collaboration - you want to change up an entire environment. They may not be able, or even want to do this, because they don't have the history or organizing training/capacity to even do professional development in a feminist way, especially because a lot of feminist organizations seem to work in a 'direct action' manner. It takes positive exposure to think that this is agood idea. They also could have different conceptions of how feminism looks, and an impassioned, extremist person shouting at them to change things is not going to change their minds, because it is not worth the trouble. They aren't going to see the benefits of what your knowledge is going to bring, unless you can get across to them in a way that would make them feel 'comfortable' enough to participate and share, and would be at benefit to them and the organization. AKA 'not threatening.'
My personality tends towards extremism and impassioned speech, and I am really at a loss as to how to toe the line and get the rest of the board on board with my ideas.
I've been there - when you are so fired up and empowered to do radical things, it's easy to go "Omg why isn't anyone else going with me?!!" But other people have different survival patterns for how to deal with oppression, and ultimately, talking with them as people in a cool-headed manner is what gets across to them. I've transitioned and cultivated a cool-headed perspective mostly because I have seen how my impassioned, extremist personality in the past has alienated people, and ultimately threw a lot of fire at talking about change, rather than really thinking about what was a sustainable personality for me to do my work. I also have had to relax a lot, so I can keep myself sustainable, but I am sharing my history to let you know where I am at. (But my impassioned perosnality is still in me, but in different forms.) There are also a lot of people who have not been lucky enough to get the support, resources, and privilege to learn about feminism in depth the way I do, and not have the freedom to be as angry as I have.
So it's good to also look at the source of your personality and fire, and see the type of energy and environment you truly want to participate in. Is this organization even a match for you, and if it isn't, do you want to be involved with it to the point it may be out of sync for you and your needs?
It actually hurts me to write this, because I do believe most organizations will benefit from an explicitly intersectional feminist perspective, but for various reasons, they will not do so. This may be related to the ideologies of the group, the funding history, or the intra-politics. Depending on how many resources and energy you have, you may be better off joining this group and seeing how they do things and glean useful knowledges, and then propose intersectional feminist models of how to do mentorship and networking, either within the group as some events, or your own club all together. But your own club all together may lead to burnout.
posted by yueliang at 3:52 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I also am thinking...
Are they just misinformed about feminism? Could you possibly poll the members and ask if they want to see 'feminist' things, but not have it be labeled feminist? (the needs of subversive work...) Do you know for sure, for each person, where their political awareness is located?
if you would like to, offer trainings/workshops that could see more where you are coming from, and take the initiative to do so, and bring some amazing speakers. I organized a feminist post-grad and work life workshop, where people talked about how their identity and politics strengthened them and allowed them to see dynamics during while they sought work and in their professional careers.
Hell, you could even tread into the "Feminist TED Talks" section if you need to find that navigational intersection. It's just hard if they aren't 'woke' and it all comes down to cultivating the type of conversations that you would want to see with the staff, and changing the intention of the space. But I find it hard for them to be that resistant to the idea of talking about gender discrimination if even that atrocious "Lean In" book is getting that much press.
Not to mention, the group may have been feminist in the past, but people could have taken over it and simply continued on the events, without maintaining earlier ideology or even changing it to be more conservative. Or there were other feminists who could've split from the group and did different things, and their groups died. But you won't know this until you have conversation with the staff, and ask around and talk to different people. Good luck, this is hard work, and feel free to MeMail me if you need someone to vent to about this.
posted by yueliang at 4:01 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are they just misinformed about feminism? Could you possibly poll the members and ask if they want to see 'feminist' things, but not have it be labeled feminist? (the needs of subversive work...) Do you know for sure, for each person, where their political awareness is located?
if you would like to, offer trainings/workshops that could see more where you are coming from, and take the initiative to do so, and bring some amazing speakers. I organized a feminist post-grad and work life workshop, where people talked about how their identity and politics strengthened them and allowed them to see dynamics during while they sought work and in their professional careers.
Hell, you could even tread into the "Feminist TED Talks" section if you need to find that navigational intersection. It's just hard if they aren't 'woke' and it all comes down to cultivating the type of conversations that you would want to see with the staff, and changing the intention of the space. But I find it hard for them to be that resistant to the idea of talking about gender discrimination if even that atrocious "Lean In" book is getting that much press.
Not to mention, the group may have been feminist in the past, but people could have taken over it and simply continued on the events, without maintaining earlier ideology or even changing it to be more conservative. Or there were other feminists who could've split from the group and did different things, and their groups died. But you won't know this until you have conversation with the staff, and ask around and talk to different people. Good luck, this is hard work, and feel free to MeMail me if you need someone to vent to about this.
posted by yueliang at 4:01 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is no way they didn't experience gender discrimination, right? So they're either all deeply deeply in denial or far more likely - they don't trust you enough yet to risk talking about gender discrimination in the field because it's been a disaster previously ("playing the victim" suggests that someone did bring it up and was screwed over a second time) and you're brand new to the group, clearly coming in with an agenda of your own, and so they're just not going to work with you on this.
If this group has the resources you really need for the work you want to do, then you need to learn their history, form relationships with the people in the group and understand their organisational culture. That's at least six months of quiet work first. Otherwise, set up your own complementary feminist organisation that works with them and focus on a healthy partnership instead.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:35 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
If this group has the resources you really need for the work you want to do, then you need to learn their history, form relationships with the people in the group and understand their organisational culture. That's at least six months of quiet work first. Otherwise, set up your own complementary feminist organisation that works with them and focus on a healthy partnership instead.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:35 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You are in a STEM field? Then I would think pragmatism would/should be an important value. Sometimes extremism and passion serve pragmatic ends, sometimes the work against them.
As an individual who wants to make your way in STEM, it would seem to me that you'll do well to cultivate your own pragmatism.
As an individual who wants to make your way in STEM, participating in an organization for women in your field is a pragmatic choice.
As an individual who thinks a feminist awareness is underrepresented in STEM circles, it is both idealistic and pragmatic for you to make your way in a STEM career.
As an individual who thinks a feminist awareness is underrepresented in STEM circles, it is pragmatic to conclude that a feminist awareness in a STEM context is also underdeveloped, and, I'd suggest, pragmatic to consider that because of that, your own first impulses may not be well informed or considered.
As an individual who thinks a feminist awareness is underrepresented in STEM circles, it is pragmatic and idealistic to figure out how best to enlighten your peers. People are most open to persuasion when you can draw on their own values and experiences.
So, I think you should remain part of this organization, for your benefit, for the benefit of other women in STEM, and for the benefit of other feminists in STEM. Focus on the things that you can agree with. Meanwhile, figure out the best opportunities and the best ways of introducing a feminist viewpoint, and once you've done your research, start doing so.
At the same time, there is nothing to stop you from starting a STEM/feminists organization. At some point, you may be forced to choose one of the other, but at this point, the only person forcing that choice is you.
I'll add that there is a lot of half-truth and outright BS about meritocracy, etc that men in STEM and internalize without much critical thought. It isn't surprising that many successful women in the field are prone to the same point of view.
I've found that there are plenty of opportunities to use the core values of engineers and scientists to help them take a more humane view of themselves and others. I'd be quite surprised if there weren't at least as many opportunities to appeal to the professional values of female students and professionals in STEM to help them recognize how feminism is relevant to them.
posted by Good Brain at 4:41 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
As an individual who wants to make your way in STEM, it would seem to me that you'll do well to cultivate your own pragmatism.
As an individual who wants to make your way in STEM, participating in an organization for women in your field is a pragmatic choice.
As an individual who thinks a feminist awareness is underrepresented in STEM circles, it is both idealistic and pragmatic for you to make your way in a STEM career.
As an individual who thinks a feminist awareness is underrepresented in STEM circles, it is pragmatic to conclude that a feminist awareness in a STEM context is also underdeveloped, and, I'd suggest, pragmatic to consider that because of that, your own first impulses may not be well informed or considered.
As an individual who thinks a feminist awareness is underrepresented in STEM circles, it is pragmatic and idealistic to figure out how best to enlighten your peers. People are most open to persuasion when you can draw on their own values and experiences.
So, I think you should remain part of this organization, for your benefit, for the benefit of other women in STEM, and for the benefit of other feminists in STEM. Focus on the things that you can agree with. Meanwhile, figure out the best opportunities and the best ways of introducing a feminist viewpoint, and once you've done your research, start doing so.
At the same time, there is nothing to stop you from starting a STEM/feminists organization. At some point, you may be forced to choose one of the other, but at this point, the only person forcing that choice is you.
I'll add that there is a lot of half-truth and outright BS about meritocracy, etc that men in STEM and internalize without much critical thought. It isn't surprising that many successful women in the field are prone to the same point of view.
I've found that there are plenty of opportunities to use the core values of engineers and scientists to help them take a more humane view of themselves and others. I'd be quite surprised if there weren't at least as many opportunities to appeal to the professional values of female students and professionals in STEM to help them recognize how feminism is relevant to them.
posted by Good Brain at 4:41 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Regarding starting a STEM/feminists organization - our local university's LGBTQIA and women's center ended up being the supportive voice for a few students, and that group did collaborations with other groups to coalesce funds and find speakers. The outcome of those speakers-events was even more people who wanted to get involved with a feminist STEM initiative, and it started steamrolling. Some of those not-explicitly feminist groups did have feminists inside the groups, who worked on feminist projects with the support of the group's name, even though the group itself was not explicitly feminist. Working on events to find more like-minded people, who have needs and are excluded by the fact that there are events who are not focused on their needs is an amazing goal, but something that is worth trying to communicate with your current group. But couched in the terms of, 'these are needs and times are changing.'
Everyone has very pragmatic advice above.
posted by yueliang at 4:50 PM on December 13, 2015
Everyone has very pragmatic advice above.
posted by yueliang at 4:50 PM on December 13, 2015
In my experience, as others have noted above, finding ways to foreground the ideas and the discussions and initiatives you want to see without the label may be the most useful thing. When women colleagues and I experienced sexism in a previous workplace, it was most useful to listen and then brainstorm strategies for dealing with it, rather than focusing on labeling it as sexism or talking about feminism, which had political connotations that made some women uncomfortable. There's plenty that can be done to improve things and create the programs you want to see without using the term feminism, which unfortunately immediately flips an off switch for some people. (It used to do that for me, and I've only in recent years come to recognize the threads that connect things I've come to believe and value with feminism.)
I appreciate the dilemma you face, as it's similar to the problems I've faced trying to raise the consciousness of other industry groups with regard to things like relating better to communities of color and protest. Once the blinders have been removed from your eyes with regard to how your industry could do better in promoting justice and fairness, it's hard to remember what it was like before you could read between the lines. It's really hard to resist trying to dash a bit of cold water in colleagues' faces. Learning to understand the language of progressive communities takes time, so as others have alluded to, you're facing a discourse gap, too, if you're already there and the group isn't.
I'm still not sure how best to effect change in an industry when certain more "woke" ways of speaking about the problems I see immediately brand me as a radical or someone who doesn't share the group's values. I don't wish to become the lone voice in the wilderness in my group who's deemed a contrarian or unprofessional, because that won't achieve change in the group or the industry at large. But it makes me uncomfortable to accept some of the things that have been said about those communities by those in the industry, and some of the proposed solutions seem clumsy.
So how to proceed? I'm still working that out in my case, but treading cautiously to build relationships and standing and maintain a place in the group whose practices you wish to change is probably good advice. Keeping your head down for a bit and learning to speak their language will help you determine whether there might already be some recognition of the ideas you value, just coded a bit differently. Then once you have their esteem and know what they value, you can proceed from a place of better understanding.
Inasmuch as urging patience is often used to distract people from their real goals, and inasmuch as the problems we're both talking about really need to be addressed now now now, bide your time for a bit with this group and see if you can make inroads in nonobvious ways.
posted by limeonaire at 5:19 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I appreciate the dilemma you face, as it's similar to the problems I've faced trying to raise the consciousness of other industry groups with regard to things like relating better to communities of color and protest. Once the blinders have been removed from your eyes with regard to how your industry could do better in promoting justice and fairness, it's hard to remember what it was like before you could read between the lines. It's really hard to resist trying to dash a bit of cold water in colleagues' faces. Learning to understand the language of progressive communities takes time, so as others have alluded to, you're facing a discourse gap, too, if you're already there and the group isn't.
I'm still not sure how best to effect change in an industry when certain more "woke" ways of speaking about the problems I see immediately brand me as a radical or someone who doesn't share the group's values. I don't wish to become the lone voice in the wilderness in my group who's deemed a contrarian or unprofessional, because that won't achieve change in the group or the industry at large. But it makes me uncomfortable to accept some of the things that have been said about those communities by those in the industry, and some of the proposed solutions seem clumsy.
So how to proceed? I'm still working that out in my case, but treading cautiously to build relationships and standing and maintain a place in the group whose practices you wish to change is probably good advice. Keeping your head down for a bit and learning to speak their language will help you determine whether there might already be some recognition of the ideas you value, just coded a bit differently. Then once you have their esteem and know what they value, you can proceed from a place of better understanding.
Inasmuch as urging patience is often used to distract people from their real goals, and inasmuch as the problems we're both talking about really need to be addressed now now now, bide your time for a bit with this group and see if you can make inroads in nonobvious ways.
posted by limeonaire at 5:19 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
"My personality tends towards extremism and impassioned speech..."
This is me. I consider myself an A-1 Feminist, and anything that smells of polemics or dialectics turns me right off. Your fellow board members may feel the same way.
As wiser heads above have advised, focus on the specifics, and work toward specific solutions. Some women WILL NOT bring themselves to use the F word, under any circumstances, for reasons we can't know. By infiltrating with your work, you can help melt some of that resistance, maybe without their knowing it.
"other members of the board have never experienced gender discrimination..."
...that they're willing to talk about anyway, but you can bet your fountain pen they have experienced discrimination.
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:27 PM on December 13, 2015
This is me. I consider myself an A-1 Feminist, and anything that smells of polemics or dialectics turns me right off. Your fellow board members may feel the same way.
As wiser heads above have advised, focus on the specifics, and work toward specific solutions. Some women WILL NOT bring themselves to use the F word, under any circumstances, for reasons we can't know. By infiltrating with your work, you can help melt some of that resistance, maybe without their knowing it.
"other members of the board have never experienced gender discrimination..."
...that they're willing to talk about anyway, but you can bet your fountain pen they have experienced discrimination.
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:27 PM on December 13, 2015
I know exactly what you're talking about, I think. I went through a "phase" of joining and sometimes putting together my own groups. There seem to be two types, advocacy/action types, and networking/support types. I've totally burned out on the kind I expected action out of. They have all turned into drama-filled disappointment generators.
The other type turned out to be way more useful than they first seemed. Once I embraced the "be the change" philosophy and just quietly did what I wanted done in my own area of influence, I found the groups to be a great place to share my successes. Often that's how ideas spread, virally, as other people get excited by my success and want to copy the same thing. They're people with similar challenges and are great resources for advice. They're great sources of idea I might want to steal for myself. They will never be activists, though, telling other people what they should do. And that's ok too. Better, even. Don't underestimate this type of group.
posted by ctmf at 7:58 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
The other type turned out to be way more useful than they first seemed. Once I embraced the "be the change" philosophy and just quietly did what I wanted done in my own area of influence, I found the groups to be a great place to share my successes. Often that's how ideas spread, virally, as other people get excited by my success and want to copy the same thing. They're people with similar challenges and are great resources for advice. They're great sources of idea I might want to steal for myself. They will never be activists, though, telling other people what they should do. And that's ok too. Better, even. Don't underestimate this type of group.
posted by ctmf at 7:58 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I can easily imagine that successful young women in a prestigious program might not have NOTICED gender discrimination affecting them. A lot of biases become more obvious once you're outside the realm where good test scores trump other measures (or when kids enter the picture).
posted by yarntheory at 8:00 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by yarntheory at 8:00 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yeah, +1 to the people who are saying these women may also genuinely not be aware of discrimination they've faced (i.e. maybe they're not in denial and they're not scared to speak out, they really and genuinely think the problem is mostly licked). Lots of people think of discrimination as overt sexual harassment and it takes a while for people to recognize patterns. Or they think "eh, they're obnoxious but it's harmless, I'm good enough to get ahead on my own merits" and it takes a long time to see that the obnoxiousness is in fact harmful and makes it harder to get ahead on your own merits.
I also will say that for the first few years of my education and career, while I was aware of discrimination against me I was also aware that there were a number of affirmative action programs and networking opportunities that were available to me that weren't available to my male peers. I was able to forge strong relationships with executives way further up the corporate ladder than guys I knew because I was organizing events with them. At the time I thought, well, maybe this is all going to cancel out - I'll be discriminated against but I'll know people who can help me out and have access to awesome mentoring and learning opportunities, and we'll end up at about the same place. So while the discriminatory stuff bothered me, I felt weird complaining about it because, like, I had access to things other people didn't have too.
But a few years into my career path suddenly it seemed like all the support switched off and I was left on my own, and a bunch of the women-heavy network I was able to build through these opportunities has fallen out of the technical workforce or struggled to get ahead, just as I have. Those women who have continued in the workforce are so constantly barraged with requests for women-in-tech-related help that I don't feel it makes sense to seek out advice from them. Meanwhile the discrimination is still alive and well, and vastly worse now that I'm a parent.
posted by town of cats at 8:39 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I also will say that for the first few years of my education and career, while I was aware of discrimination against me I was also aware that there were a number of affirmative action programs and networking opportunities that were available to me that weren't available to my male peers. I was able to forge strong relationships with executives way further up the corporate ladder than guys I knew because I was organizing events with them. At the time I thought, well, maybe this is all going to cancel out - I'll be discriminated against but I'll know people who can help me out and have access to awesome mentoring and learning opportunities, and we'll end up at about the same place. So while the discriminatory stuff bothered me, I felt weird complaining about it because, like, I had access to things other people didn't have too.
But a few years into my career path suddenly it seemed like all the support switched off and I was left on my own, and a bunch of the women-heavy network I was able to build through these opportunities has fallen out of the technical workforce or struggled to get ahead, just as I have. Those women who have continued in the workforce are so constantly barraged with requests for women-in-tech-related help that I don't feel it makes sense to seek out advice from them. Meanwhile the discrimination is still alive and well, and vastly worse now that I'm a parent.
posted by town of cats at 8:39 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Even absent the feminism, you are playing the role of New Person Who Wants To Change How Things Are Done To The Way I Think They Should Be Done and getting all fired up about it and demanding compliance. This isn't a way to make friends in a group, any group. Observe why things are done the way they are and make gentle nudges. Many women shy away from the "feminist" label because of the LOUD OBNOXIOUS FEMINIST MAKING EVERYTHING ABOUT FEMINISM stereotype (which you are playing into, unfortunately), even if they are generally sympathetic to the goals of feminism. Consider dialing it back or, perhaps, making your own more-activist group.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:11 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:11 PM on December 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your thoughtful and insightful advice! You really helped me think about this in a more nuanced way and feel prepared to do good work no matter what. I marked some best answers for things that really resonated for me or that I specifically intend to do but each reply was very helpful.
I misrepresented my involvement a little bit -- since we're a student organization, the entire previous board graduated and all the board members are as new as me, so I'm not exactly the New Person Who Wants To Change How Things Are Done To The Way I Think They Should Be Done -- more like the New Person Who Was Mistaken About the Mission of the Organization And Is Now Trying to Work Collaboratively to Achieve Common Goals.
Cheers and thanks again!
posted by telegraph at 7:16 PM on December 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I misrepresented my involvement a little bit -- since we're a student organization, the entire previous board graduated and all the board members are as new as me, so I'm not exactly the New Person Who Wants To Change How Things Are Done To The Way I Think They Should Be Done -- more like the New Person Who Was Mistaken About the Mission of the Organization And Is Now Trying to Work Collaboratively to Achieve Common Goals.
Cheers and thanks again!
posted by telegraph at 7:16 PM on December 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Kalmya at 1:13 PM on December 13, 2015 [13 favorites]