My 6-year old with ADHD and SPD touches compulsively
September 27, 2015 10:00 PM
My 6-year old son still grabs for my belly compulsively and has done so since he was maybe 2.5 when I weaned him. It hasn't bothered me all this time, honestly, but my ex- had been down my throat about it even since then. He hated it when we were married (made him queasy, in the same way he disapproved of my breastfeeding more and more as my son got older).
My child used to enjoy the feel of my tummy skin against his too, but he hasn’t attempted that for at least 6 months now.
My son has been confirmed by Kaiser as having both ADHD and Sensory Processing Disorder - compulsive touching being a symptom of both.
Following the most common advice for this situation, I have worked on replacing my tummy with something else... a stuffed animal, blanket, another part of my body, even. My son's compulsion is pretty intense and severe. Imagine trying to tell a person with Tourette's he's supposed to control himself from swearing. It's like that. He's been seeing an Occupational Therapist since July. Much of last year, he was seeing a psychologist thru Kaiser too, but that guy was pretty useless. He just gave my son a very standard talk about staying 2 feet away from people for personal space reasons.
The biggest problem is that, since last year, my son has reached for the bellies of my ex-'s first girlfriend, his current girlfriend, and now the 16 year old niece of his girlfriend. 3 incidents like that now. Each time, my ex- claims that my son reached for their breasts as well and they've become really uncomfortable. I’ve seen their written accounts and it includes language like “he looked at me seductively".
Also, last April, we got notified that my son became too playful and pinched the bottoms of 2 of his 8th grade "big sisters" at school. My ex- reacted very angrily and sent me a text that said “No matter what you say, this is YOUR doing.”
The ex- made the leap that, since I haven't successfully trained my son away from my belly, that this is all my fault, though it's not like I really have much control over it. There's so much more drama around this story, but I'll leave it at that for you for now.
So, practical question here - not that I think I am to blame for my son reaching for anyone's bottoms or breasts (although it's been an uphill battle against that perception) … My son is old enough to have fairly deep conversations now – in that I can talk about motivations, how people feel in reaction to things and that certain things are just inappropriate. Now, let's say I wanted to communicate to my son WHY he shouldn't touch my tummy. We know he reaches for it most as a security blanket, and until now I haven't wanted to make him feel like that's a bad thing. How would you talk to him about it to help him understand why he should try to stop reaching for my tummy? I've told him my tummy is kind of like a private part, but that's not convincing, given that it's often displayed in media. Sometimes I tell him it physically hurts or tickles me and ask him to temporarily stop. But I've stopped at making him feel like there's something wrong with him that needs to be corrected. I just can’t find the reasons even in myself why it’s inappropriate. Besides that, he’s got low self-esteem from my divorce and the ADHD, and I’m not eager to pile on more reasons for him to feel like a little freak.
We've been shopping around for a new family therapist for him and one of the ones we interviewed suggested I emphasize the good places he should put his hands. I've started to talk about where I like him putting his hands "Mommy likes it when you squeeze her forearms." But I just haven't found the words for telling him why the tummy is a BAD place to put his hands. Any thoughts?
Few other side notes:
A. My son has never touched another person inappropriately while he's in my care. It happens only with the ex- (I'm not counting the 8th graders because I think it was completely different from the episodes with the ex-)
B. I'm convinced this is a stress-based behavior, and I've pointed out to the ex- this only happens when our son is with him. I feel he should look at his contributions to our son's stress in these cases.
C. The ex was until very recently, in denial about my son's ADHD, and even told lies about how he had no problems with him (in his own words: “I have no problems with [our son] self-regulating when he’s with me”), which my friends quickly disspelled. So we've gone from the ex- denying our son's inability to control his impulses , to our son allegedly grabbing a 16 year old's breasts on HIS watch (apparently, the ex was right there when it happened), and it's still my fault.
D. Yes, we’re open to looking into the possibility that our child was touched inappropriately himself by somebody else. However, we are weighing that against the other realities, like the fact that he does have a compulsive touching habit, and lack of impulse control.
My child used to enjoy the feel of my tummy skin against his too, but he hasn’t attempted that for at least 6 months now.
My son has been confirmed by Kaiser as having both ADHD and Sensory Processing Disorder - compulsive touching being a symptom of both.
Following the most common advice for this situation, I have worked on replacing my tummy with something else... a stuffed animal, blanket, another part of my body, even. My son's compulsion is pretty intense and severe. Imagine trying to tell a person with Tourette's he's supposed to control himself from swearing. It's like that. He's been seeing an Occupational Therapist since July. Much of last year, he was seeing a psychologist thru Kaiser too, but that guy was pretty useless. He just gave my son a very standard talk about staying 2 feet away from people for personal space reasons.
The biggest problem is that, since last year, my son has reached for the bellies of my ex-'s first girlfriend, his current girlfriend, and now the 16 year old niece of his girlfriend. 3 incidents like that now. Each time, my ex- claims that my son reached for their breasts as well and they've become really uncomfortable. I’ve seen their written accounts and it includes language like “he looked at me seductively".
Also, last April, we got notified that my son became too playful and pinched the bottoms of 2 of his 8th grade "big sisters" at school. My ex- reacted very angrily and sent me a text that said “No matter what you say, this is YOUR doing.”
The ex- made the leap that, since I haven't successfully trained my son away from my belly, that this is all my fault, though it's not like I really have much control over it. There's so much more drama around this story, but I'll leave it at that for you for now.
So, practical question here - not that I think I am to blame for my son reaching for anyone's bottoms or breasts (although it's been an uphill battle against that perception) … My son is old enough to have fairly deep conversations now – in that I can talk about motivations, how people feel in reaction to things and that certain things are just inappropriate. Now, let's say I wanted to communicate to my son WHY he shouldn't touch my tummy. We know he reaches for it most as a security blanket, and until now I haven't wanted to make him feel like that's a bad thing. How would you talk to him about it to help him understand why he should try to stop reaching for my tummy? I've told him my tummy is kind of like a private part, but that's not convincing, given that it's often displayed in media. Sometimes I tell him it physically hurts or tickles me and ask him to temporarily stop. But I've stopped at making him feel like there's something wrong with him that needs to be corrected. I just can’t find the reasons even in myself why it’s inappropriate. Besides that, he’s got low self-esteem from my divorce and the ADHD, and I’m not eager to pile on more reasons for him to feel like a little freak.
We've been shopping around for a new family therapist for him and one of the ones we interviewed suggested I emphasize the good places he should put his hands. I've started to talk about where I like him putting his hands "Mommy likes it when you squeeze her forearms." But I just haven't found the words for telling him why the tummy is a BAD place to put his hands. Any thoughts?
Few other side notes:
A. My son has never touched another person inappropriately while he's in my care. It happens only with the ex- (I'm not counting the 8th graders because I think it was completely different from the episodes with the ex-)
B. I'm convinced this is a stress-based behavior, and I've pointed out to the ex- this only happens when our son is with him. I feel he should look at his contributions to our son's stress in these cases.
C. The ex was until very recently, in denial about my son's ADHD, and even told lies about how he had no problems with him (in his own words: “I have no problems with [our son] self-regulating when he’s with me”), which my friends quickly disspelled. So we've gone from the ex- denying our son's inability to control his impulses , to our son allegedly grabbing a 16 year old's breasts on HIS watch (apparently, the ex was right there when it happened), and it's still my fault.
D. Yes, we’re open to looking into the possibility that our child was touched inappropriately himself by somebody else. However, we are weighing that against the other realities, like the fact that he does have a compulsive touching habit, and lack of impulse control.
This is pretty simple, yet very complicated.
Focus on your son. Ignore your ex -- this is my short-term advice. Let me explain...
Whether in your care, or at school, with a babysitter, or with his dad, your son needs boundaries so that HE (your son) can be comfortable interacting with others. Here's the problem...
Your son has obstacles that make communicating and demonstrating those boundaries difficult. I think this is where you throw every professional you can access at this issue, and use your best judgement to decide what is working, and what does not help your son long-term. I agree shaming and negativity is not the goal.
Do you have a lawyer or special needs advocate?
It seems like your ex requires instruction (training?) to learn how to cope with his son's special needs. Furthermore, you need a buffer or authority to underline for your ex this is not TOTALLY your responsibility. Why the fuck is your ex throwing this back on to your plate? As if he is not also a co-parent?? How exactly does he think this all works at 6 years old??
Nip this disparity with your ex regarding co-parenting right here and now.
My personal understanding is that with OT and similar, your child can grow and thrive beyond labels like ADHD, but you gotta put the work in as a family. Your ex can't just complain like a whiny child that it is all your fault. Is your ex setting you up for some kind of legal action? What is his point? It does not sound like he's in reality if... Gah. Why am I even bothering?
Normal parents want to help their kids grow into great adults. They don't waste energy blaming their ex. They just get it together and seek professional help, or communicate without blaming, and seek a best way forward.
Just do that without your ex on board. Get a lawyer or advocate. Focus on your son.
The rest will shake out in the mix. Care will triumph. Your ex will fall in with the program or look badly in front of a judge. Your child will do great regardless, because his needs came first during his important formative years.
posted by jbenben at 10:59 PM on September 27, 2015
Focus on your son. Ignore your ex -- this is my short-term advice. Let me explain...
Whether in your care, or at school, with a babysitter, or with his dad, your son needs boundaries so that HE (your son) can be comfortable interacting with others. Here's the problem...
Your son has obstacles that make communicating and demonstrating those boundaries difficult. I think this is where you throw every professional you can access at this issue, and use your best judgement to decide what is working, and what does not help your son long-term. I agree shaming and negativity is not the goal.
Do you have a lawyer or special needs advocate?
It seems like your ex requires instruction (training?) to learn how to cope with his son's special needs. Furthermore, you need a buffer or authority to underline for your ex this is not TOTALLY your responsibility. Why the fuck is your ex throwing this back on to your plate? As if he is not also a co-parent?? How exactly does he think this all works at 6 years old??
Nip this disparity with your ex regarding co-parenting right here and now.
My personal understanding is that with OT and similar, your child can grow and thrive beyond labels like ADHD, but you gotta put the work in as a family. Your ex can't just complain like a whiny child that it is all your fault. Is your ex setting you up for some kind of legal action? What is his point? It does not sound like he's in reality if... Gah. Why am I even bothering?
Normal parents want to help their kids grow into great adults. They don't waste energy blaming their ex. They just get it together and seek professional help, or communicate without blaming, and seek a best way forward.
Just do that without your ex on board. Get a lawyer or advocate. Focus on your son.
The rest will shake out in the mix. Care will triumph. Your ex will fall in with the program or look badly in front of a judge. Your child will do great regardless, because his needs came first during his important formative years.
posted by jbenben at 10:59 PM on September 27, 2015
I wonder if your son may actually have OCD or Tourette Syndrome. This may be just sensory. But it could also be a compulsion or a tic. Tourette has a lot of comorbids, including anxiety, ADHD, SPD and OCD. I know a child who had many tics that went unnoticed or which people thought were behaviours. PM if you want details. The child was able to use cognitive behavioural interventions to overcome the tics and rituals, at least for those that were pronounced (this belly thing would be very similar to what this child was doing for one tic/compulsion). Sometimes it is hard to distinguish a tic from a compulsion. And while most people think Tourette and OCD look a certain way, they can look very different from what the media tells you and look different in children. A tic can be so slight as just touching your ear once in a while.
Anyway, one way the therapist addressed it was to just totally draw a boundary. It was hard on the parent, because the child had sought comfort in this way since infancy. But they just would redirect the child each time to a sensory toy. They had to walk around with a lot of sensory toys for a while, even clipping some on to a belt for the parent.
From what I understand, tics, anxiety and OCD are similar in the way the brain uptakes a process and repeats it and so CBT works on them all.
I agree that you may need an advocate and a lawyer. You may also need a co-parenting therapist to help mitigate your ex's behaviour. He sounds abusive and inept.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:22 PM on September 27, 2015
Anyway, one way the therapist addressed it was to just totally draw a boundary. It was hard on the parent, because the child had sought comfort in this way since infancy. But they just would redirect the child each time to a sensory toy. They had to walk around with a lot of sensory toys for a while, even clipping some on to a belt for the parent.
From what I understand, tics, anxiety and OCD are similar in the way the brain uptakes a process and repeats it and so CBT works on them all.
I agree that you may need an advocate and a lawyer. You may also need a co-parenting therapist to help mitigate your ex's behaviour. He sounds abusive and inept.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:22 PM on September 27, 2015
But I just haven't found the words for telling him why the tummy is a BAD place to put his hands.
We ask before we touch another person. Every place, every time.
posted by kelseyq at 11:37 PM on September 27, 2015
We ask before we touch another person. Every place, every time.
posted by kelseyq at 11:37 PM on September 27, 2015
It's a different situation but my 6 year old is touchy feely like her dad (strongly in the 'physical love language' stuff). However, I have PTSD, and I am hypersensitive to touch. So we have, since she was a baby, made it clear that there are thing that I don't like, there are times that I don't like things I otherwise tolerate/enjoy, and that you always ask. Just because I am her mother doesn't make it different - you always ask. Daddy is different, her cousins and other people are different, and that's okay.
The thing is, even if it's a kid, being touched in an inappropriate way is unsettling. One of my nephews' friends - a five year old - ran his hand from my waist over my butt and back up again while I was doing the school run. It is unnerving, even though I know he is just a kid, because I am still being touched in a way I did not ask for, and do not want to be touched. Neuroatypical behaviours make it more difficult as well (one of my nephews has some of those behaviours and he loves patting people's hair except he also has motor issues which mean he can accidentally yank hair so it got to the point my daughter wouldn't go near him until we could work on some ways to deal with it). It is important though, to be able to say 'this is not okay' and 'this is okay' and 'ask' and 'apologise' and things like that.
There may be a reason he doesn't do it when you're there - and again, this is one of my nephews, but it was only when mum wasn't there to grab that he grabbed me (throat, upper arm, and yes my belly). He was a toddler so it was a matter of general redirection which might also work. With my six year old I general move her hand and remind her I don't like being rubbed, or whatever it is. It isn't about making her feel bad, it's about my boundary. That important to model, and to have across the board.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:14 AM on September 28, 2015
The thing is, even if it's a kid, being touched in an inappropriate way is unsettling. One of my nephews' friends - a five year old - ran his hand from my waist over my butt and back up again while I was doing the school run. It is unnerving, even though I know he is just a kid, because I am still being touched in a way I did not ask for, and do not want to be touched. Neuroatypical behaviours make it more difficult as well (one of my nephews has some of those behaviours and he loves patting people's hair except he also has motor issues which mean he can accidentally yank hair so it got to the point my daughter wouldn't go near him until we could work on some ways to deal with it). It is important though, to be able to say 'this is not okay' and 'this is okay' and 'ask' and 'apologise' and things like that.
There may be a reason he doesn't do it when you're there - and again, this is one of my nephews, but it was only when mum wasn't there to grab that he grabbed me (throat, upper arm, and yes my belly). He was a toddler so it was a matter of general redirection which might also work. With my six year old I general move her hand and remind her I don't like being rubbed, or whatever it is. It isn't about making her feel bad, it's about my boundary. That important to model, and to have across the board.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:14 AM on September 28, 2015
I think you need to try to separate your ex's creepy, shaming attitude towards touch from the fact that your son is actually, really touching women and girls inappropriately. The count so far is five? This may be totally innocent, but is going to get him into a lot of trouble as he gets even a little bit older. You need to ignore your ex's fucked up take on thr situation and deal with this. The big why you're looking for is that people have the right to bodily autonomy. We don't touch other people's bodies for comfort unless we ask. We are not entitled to access to other people's bodies, even parts that aren't "private." Period. Teaching little boys it's OK to touch women without permission for comfort is not a good road to go down.You seem to be a bit in denial about this-- your ex is pathologizing and sexualizing your son in unhealthy and age-inappropriate ways and his trying to put the blame only on you is bullshit, but in reacting to his bullshit, you're minimizing a serious problem. Jbenben is right on that your son may need a special needs advocate. People with Tourette's undergo behavioral therapy to manage their tics. DBT or some other behavioral therapy that works to address compulsive behavior, stat.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:20 AM on September 28, 2015
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:20 AM on September 28, 2015
*CBT not DBT, sorry
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:26 AM on September 28, 2015
posted by moonlight on vermont at 1:26 AM on September 28, 2015
It's inappropriate because we don't touch people without their permission, period. It's just not okay.
Nthing above; you're really minimizing this and you shouldn't be. Nobody wants your son to feel like "a little freak," but what's he doing isn't okay and you need to separate whatever hostility you and the ex have from your son's behavior.
It may be OCD, it may be poor impulse control with ADHD, this could be a sensory processing disorder, but it's probably anxiety-based. It doesn't matter. He needs to stop. Easier said than done, right? Not really.
Your son needs to learn other things he can do when he feels that anxiety/stress. CBT will definitely help, but there are things you can do. It will take work, but you can help.
You'll need to go out with him and let him pick out special tactile objects. Something silky, a hard ball, sandpaper, a squishy ball, something with elastic, drummer sticks, a bouncy yoga ball to sit on, a mini trampoline, all sorts of different tactile feelings so his body can safely satisfy that need to touch something. In the OT world, it's called a sensory diet. Also consider chewing gum, smashing ice cubes and sour candies. All these things will help satisfy the body's cravings.
You need to role play and practice, when he's in a calmer state, how he can self-soothe. If he wants to touch, he can use one of his special toys to push or pull or smash or squish. When he does this, praise him for doing this. He will learn, over time, how to effectively channel this anxious energy appropriately and when the need to touch someone happens, he'll be used to using one of his "fidgets" instead.
The last thing I'll suggest is martial arts. I've seen it work wonders with kids who have anxiety issues. It teaches them a world of self-control combined with strength.
posted by kinetic at 3:30 AM on September 28, 2015
Nthing above; you're really minimizing this and you shouldn't be. Nobody wants your son to feel like "a little freak," but what's he doing isn't okay and you need to separate whatever hostility you and the ex have from your son's behavior.
It may be OCD, it may be poor impulse control with ADHD, this could be a sensory processing disorder, but it's probably anxiety-based. It doesn't matter. He needs to stop. Easier said than done, right? Not really.
Your son needs to learn other things he can do when he feels that anxiety/stress. CBT will definitely help, but there are things you can do. It will take work, but you can help.
You'll need to go out with him and let him pick out special tactile objects. Something silky, a hard ball, sandpaper, a squishy ball, something with elastic, drummer sticks, a bouncy yoga ball to sit on, a mini trampoline, all sorts of different tactile feelings so his body can safely satisfy that need to touch something. In the OT world, it's called a sensory diet. Also consider chewing gum, smashing ice cubes and sour candies. All these things will help satisfy the body's cravings.
You need to role play and practice, when he's in a calmer state, how he can self-soothe. If he wants to touch, he can use one of his special toys to push or pull or smash or squish. When he does this, praise him for doing this. He will learn, over time, how to effectively channel this anxious energy appropriately and when the need to touch someone happens, he'll be used to using one of his "fidgets" instead.
The last thing I'll suggest is martial arts. I've seen it work wonders with kids who have anxiety issues. It teaches them a world of self-control combined with strength.
posted by kinetic at 3:30 AM on September 28, 2015
Moonlight is right - you have your ex being a jerk blaming you and overreacting shaming your son which makes you defensive rightly of your son, but your son is old enough that his behaviour is no longer "cute kid silliness" and you need to wall off your ex's crap and neutrally and calmly look at your son's current and future behaviour and handle that. What does your son need? What will this behaviour likely cause in his environments? How can you replace either the environment or the behavior to help your son navigate the world a little easier without harming him (or others)?
Are you okay with him touching your tummy? I would be okay with that personally, and I don't see why Mummy's tummy is confusing against everyone else's tummy. I mean, it kinda sounds like you don't mind. I don't mind when my grow-up kids use my belly as a pillow to this day. They don't go around using other people's bellies as pillows because there's Mom and there are other people, and they understand stranger, friend, close friend, etc, and also the whole "Can I do this?" request before touching - which is a really good lesson to do. And to model repeatedly to him, to ask routinely in a gentle playful way before you hug and touch him yourself, and to make it a game almost, a positive thing of "yes" rather than lots of shaming "no"s.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:53 AM on September 28, 2015
Are you okay with him touching your tummy? I would be okay with that personally, and I don't see why Mummy's tummy is confusing against everyone else's tummy. I mean, it kinda sounds like you don't mind. I don't mind when my grow-up kids use my belly as a pillow to this day. They don't go around using other people's bellies as pillows because there's Mom and there are other people, and they understand stranger, friend, close friend, etc, and also the whole "Can I do this?" request before touching - which is a really good lesson to do. And to model repeatedly to him, to ask routinely in a gentle playful way before you hug and touch him yourself, and to make it a game almost, a positive thing of "yes" rather than lots of shaming "no"s.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:53 AM on September 28, 2015
metahawk put it very well.
Just wanted to add, my son (almost 7) has phases when he does this with me. Touching my belly, my breasts, etc without my consent. I am not aware he ever did it to others and it is not compulsive (as he actually dislikes physical contact with anyone except me, not even with his dad) so it is not quite the same, but there are similarities.
Anyway, last year he had a phase when he touched my breasts many times a day, for several weeks, it was super annoying and embarassing (eg at the pool). I finally got him to stop that by explaining that for me it is super unpleasant and makes me uncomfortable if he touches them .
Each time I took his hand and removed it gently and said in normal conversation tone: stop, It is unpleasant/uncomfortable for me (we speak German, so I am not certain what an idiomatic / less stilted way of saying that in English is). And quietly so as not to embarass him.
Because that was the thing: it did make me very uncomfortable, so it was true (authentic). I did this for a couple of weeks consistently and then he stopped.
We also discussed and agreed on what I was comfortable with instead (hugs, kisses on the cheek, taking/holding my hand). I told him he needs to ask me before (no long sentence needed but a short look, or asking: kisses? hug? is enough.
Recently he started up again with touching my belly (I am certain from starting school anxieties) and we went through it again, that this is uncomfortable, redirecting, etc and it worked again.
I think whatever you say to him he will suss out what is authentic. Don't say it hurts, or something, if it does not. It is uncomfortable and unpleasant. period. There is really no need to give the whole reason why it makes you uncomfortable, and it would only complicate matters.
I also agree with those above who say that say it is about teaching him to respect other peoples bodies. He should learn to ask before touching (and just as important expect others to ask him before they touch!). This will be a useful habit regardless.
Re him touching these other women (ex and current GF of dad) - maybe he is looking for ways to bond with them as they are women who were or are important to dad? He may just not understand how else to express himself?
One other thing - my son never so far accepted a transition object (stuffed animal, pacifier, cloth, etc). Some children do but some just don't. For us it was easier to not offer those anymore as it just made him angry (from an early age) to be offered an object instead of me. I offer (if feasabale) my hand, or he is allowed to kiss my cheek, or to hug me. Sometimes that becomes too much as well and I tell him in a friendly and firm way to stop now.
I used to feel bad about that, thought he might feel rejected by me if I told him no, but actually I find it does not impact him negatively at all, he simply needs help to channel his strong urge for physical touch into appropriate ways. It is better he learns it from me than someone else.
posted by 15L06 at 4:33 AM on September 28, 2015
Just wanted to add, my son (almost 7) has phases when he does this with me. Touching my belly, my breasts, etc without my consent. I am not aware he ever did it to others and it is not compulsive (as he actually dislikes physical contact with anyone except me, not even with his dad) so it is not quite the same, but there are similarities.
Anyway, last year he had a phase when he touched my breasts many times a day, for several weeks, it was super annoying and embarassing (eg at the pool). I finally got him to stop that by explaining that for me it is super unpleasant and makes me uncomfortable if he touches them .
Each time I took his hand and removed it gently and said in normal conversation tone: stop, It is unpleasant/uncomfortable for me (we speak German, so I am not certain what an idiomatic / less stilted way of saying that in English is). And quietly so as not to embarass him.
Because that was the thing: it did make me very uncomfortable, so it was true (authentic). I did this for a couple of weeks consistently and then he stopped.
We also discussed and agreed on what I was comfortable with instead (hugs, kisses on the cheek, taking/holding my hand). I told him he needs to ask me before (no long sentence needed but a short look, or asking: kisses? hug? is enough.
Recently he started up again with touching my belly (I am certain from starting school anxieties) and we went through it again, that this is uncomfortable, redirecting, etc and it worked again.
I think whatever you say to him he will suss out what is authentic. Don't say it hurts, or something, if it does not. It is uncomfortable and unpleasant. period. There is really no need to give the whole reason why it makes you uncomfortable, and it would only complicate matters.
I also agree with those above who say that say it is about teaching him to respect other peoples bodies. He should learn to ask before touching (and just as important expect others to ask him before they touch!). This will be a useful habit regardless.
Re him touching these other women (ex and current GF of dad) - maybe he is looking for ways to bond with them as they are women who were or are important to dad? He may just not understand how else to express himself?
One other thing - my son never so far accepted a transition object (stuffed animal, pacifier, cloth, etc). Some children do but some just don't. For us it was easier to not offer those anymore as it just made him angry (from an early age) to be offered an object instead of me. I offer (if feasabale) my hand, or he is allowed to kiss my cheek, or to hug me. Sometimes that becomes too much as well and I tell him in a friendly and firm way to stop now.
I used to feel bad about that, thought he might feel rejected by me if I told him no, but actually I find it does not impact him negatively at all, he simply needs help to channel his strong urge for physical touch into appropriate ways. It is better he learns it from me than someone else.
posted by 15L06 at 4:33 AM on September 28, 2015
The reason to set boundaries with your son is so that he will understand them with other people. You want to leave a little less room for interpretation with a neuroatypical kid. I worked with a family whose son had Downs and had trouble with appropriate boundaries. We were in a workshop at one point about appropriate behavior and I mentioned that we usually only kiss romantic partners on the mouth. His mom said that she kissed all her friends on the mouth. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's not a societal norm where we live, and I think that she muddled her son's expectations about expected behavior (he frequently kissed and licked people he was not dating).
A kid who is neurotypical might be able to understand "Mom is okay with this but other people aren't." But your son isn't understanding that. He needs to hear that touch is only okay when it is asked for, even if you are okay with him touching you without permission.
posted by chaiminda at 6:09 AM on September 28, 2015
A kid who is neurotypical might be able to understand "Mom is okay with this but other people aren't." But your son isn't understanding that. He needs to hear that touch is only okay when it is asked for, even if you are okay with him touching you without permission.
posted by chaiminda at 6:09 AM on September 28, 2015
it seems to me that you can make a distinction between touching you (mother) and anyone else.
sorry if this is offensive - i feel like there's some cultural thing here that i am really not getting (i understand the general motivation for asking before you touch other people, but, at least in the culture where i live, no-one would expect a child to ask permission to touch a parent).
edit: oh, ok, on posting, post above me may explain why this is not a good idea.
posted by andrewcooke at 6:11 AM on September 28, 2015
sorry if this is offensive - i feel like there's some cultural thing here that i am really not getting (i understand the general motivation for asking before you touch other people, but, at least in the culture where i live, no-one would expect a child to ask permission to touch a parent).
edit: oh, ok, on posting, post above me may explain why this is not a good idea.
posted by andrewcooke at 6:11 AM on September 28, 2015
Yeah and I would also say that it may be very possible for you to set a boundary for your son with other people and not with you, but is sounds like this is a bit of a challenging area for him and I think it's best to be very clear.
Another thought--pinching people on the butt is pretty different from what he's doing with you. Is there anyone else he might be modeling this behavior from?
posted by chaiminda at 6:18 AM on September 28, 2015
Another thought--pinching people on the butt is pretty different from what he's doing with you. Is there anyone else he might be modeling this behavior from?
posted by chaiminda at 6:18 AM on September 28, 2015
Your child respects boundaries with you, not with Dad and maybe not at school. At Dad's, Son behaves in a way that specifically bugs his Dad. It sounds like attention-seeking. Dad can help by giving Son lots of positive attention - throw a ball together, play games, even watching tv. Dad can model loving appropriate affection. It's hard, because some people gets fixated on blame, but if you can encourage Dad to spend positive time with your son, it could help.
posted by theora55 at 6:32 AM on September 28, 2015
posted by theora55 at 6:32 AM on September 28, 2015
What does your son's OT say about all this? This is definitely an issue that an OT can help deal with if it's a sensory seeking/self-regulation issue. (Obviously finding a good family therapist is important too.) Personally, I'd be discussing it all with his OT and looking into having the OT request that your ex attend an OT session with your son. Ex needs to hear from a professional that this isn't your fault, and he needs to learn some strategies for identifying and channeling that sensory-seeking behavior when your son is with him. (Of course a single session with an OT is not going to convert your ex but it's ridiculous to blame you for this.)
posted by bluebelle at 6:51 AM on September 28, 2015
posted by bluebelle at 6:51 AM on September 28, 2015
Thanks a lot, everybody. You are by far the smartest community I've found on the web. I've already started incorporating body autonomy language into my speech with my kid.
15L06 picked up on a main criterion of mine - that my objections be authentic. I completely agree that the body autonomy message needs reinforcing - people's bodies are their own, and my son needs to ask permission to touch. That said, I struggle with finding what to say after my son does ask permission, "Mommy, can I touch your belly? Please?" I think it's an honest enough answer to say it makes me "uncomfortable", and I don't need to mention that the underlying reason behind that is that I am uncomfortable with reinforcing the habitual nature of the action - NOT that he is skeeving me out or that I assign any moral wrongdoing to his reaching out to touch me. So thanks for that, 15L06.
In the meantime, I am continuing to throw every resource I have at the problem (while trying to not make the same mistake of consenting to just another ineffectual therapist like the Kaiser one that got assigned to us).
I have a couple more questions if it's ok to build on the discussion:
1) I'm intrigued by the idea of a special needs advocate, and firstly, in what circumstances would the advocate represent me? With the school in seeking evaluation/IEP? In conflicts with my ex-husband? I am trying to see where I can leverage this resource that I was excited to learn about from this group. Secondly, I started trying to look one up for me locally here in the SF Bay Area. I couldn't find a single one through Google or Yelp. Where would I go to get in touch with one or more in my area?/
2) Please help me understand...what did I say that lent the impression that I'm minimizing the problem? I'm asking because I feel I've been fighting off that perception with the ex-. He'll say that, if I argue for him to use reason and compassion in the way he disciplines our child for inappropriate touching, that I'm "enabling" him. I don't want to promote that perception, so if you could quote me back to me where I did, I'd find it helpful. On my part, here's what I've done to address the problem seriously:
* Proactively tried to replace the tummy with another "lovey" over the course of *years*. My experience was the same as 15L06's. My son resented any replacement, even banging his head against the wall at times I'd get insistent with him that he accept the replacement.
* Paid for 100% of our son's psychologist with Kaiser while the ex- claimed lack of funds
* Performed the research that unearthed the possibilty that our child may be SPD
* Pressed hard for an evaluation and diagnosis of both ADHD & SPD even while the ex- was actively denying our son's inability to self-regulate and non-responsive to my requests for a deeper look into SPD (As a condition of our marital settlement agreement, we have to be in agreement for any evaluation or treatment, since we have joint legal custody)
* Advocated for Occupational Therapy over the course of 2 months, while the ex- waffled on whether he thought our child needed it and kept minimizing the severity of our son's ADHD
So, I really need more help in addressing the idea that I have trivialized the need to intervene. I just want to intervene compassionately and persuasively, while protecting my son from being belittled by his father and others.
3) A new opportunity has opened for me with the ex- where he has finally agreed after months of pressure from me to write a revised parenting plan to replace our existing custody agreement. I mainly plan to add language requiring us both to protect our son from exposure to conflict (the ex- has been awful with that). Now I also want to include language to address the boy's special needs. Can you guys help me start brainstorming the kinds of provisions I can put in there to ensure considerations for our son's neurological needs?
posted by phreckles at 6:32 PM on September 28, 2015
15L06 picked up on a main criterion of mine - that my objections be authentic. I completely agree that the body autonomy message needs reinforcing - people's bodies are their own, and my son needs to ask permission to touch. That said, I struggle with finding what to say after my son does ask permission, "Mommy, can I touch your belly? Please?" I think it's an honest enough answer to say it makes me "uncomfortable", and I don't need to mention that the underlying reason behind that is that I am uncomfortable with reinforcing the habitual nature of the action - NOT that he is skeeving me out or that I assign any moral wrongdoing to his reaching out to touch me. So thanks for that, 15L06.
In the meantime, I am continuing to throw every resource I have at the problem (while trying to not make the same mistake of consenting to just another ineffectual therapist like the Kaiser one that got assigned to us).
I have a couple more questions if it's ok to build on the discussion:
1) I'm intrigued by the idea of a special needs advocate, and firstly, in what circumstances would the advocate represent me? With the school in seeking evaluation/IEP? In conflicts with my ex-husband? I am trying to see where I can leverage this resource that I was excited to learn about from this group. Secondly, I started trying to look one up for me locally here in the SF Bay Area. I couldn't find a single one through Google or Yelp. Where would I go to get in touch with one or more in my area?/
2) Please help me understand...what did I say that lent the impression that I'm minimizing the problem? I'm asking because I feel I've been fighting off that perception with the ex-. He'll say that, if I argue for him to use reason and compassion in the way he disciplines our child for inappropriate touching, that I'm "enabling" him. I don't want to promote that perception, so if you could quote me back to me where I did, I'd find it helpful. On my part, here's what I've done to address the problem seriously:
* Proactively tried to replace the tummy with another "lovey" over the course of *years*. My experience was the same as 15L06's. My son resented any replacement, even banging his head against the wall at times I'd get insistent with him that he accept the replacement.
* Paid for 100% of our son's psychologist with Kaiser while the ex- claimed lack of funds
* Performed the research that unearthed the possibilty that our child may be SPD
* Pressed hard for an evaluation and diagnosis of both ADHD & SPD even while the ex- was actively denying our son's inability to self-regulate and non-responsive to my requests for a deeper look into SPD (As a condition of our marital settlement agreement, we have to be in agreement for any evaluation or treatment, since we have joint legal custody)
* Advocated for Occupational Therapy over the course of 2 months, while the ex- waffled on whether he thought our child needed it and kept minimizing the severity of our son's ADHD
So, I really need more help in addressing the idea that I have trivialized the need to intervene. I just want to intervene compassionately and persuasively, while protecting my son from being belittled by his father and others.
3) A new opportunity has opened for me with the ex- where he has finally agreed after months of pressure from me to write a revised parenting plan to replace our existing custody agreement. I mainly plan to add language requiring us both to protect our son from exposure to conflict (the ex- has been awful with that). Now I also want to include language to address the boy's special needs. Can you guys help me start brainstorming the kinds of provisions I can put in there to ensure considerations for our son's neurological needs?
posted by phreckles at 6:32 PM on September 28, 2015
---Imagine trying to tell a person with Tourette's he's supposed to control himself from swearing.
No. SPD consists of a huge spectrum. As does ADHD. I know lots of people who have one or the other (I have some SPD) and it's almost impossible to detect.
--- though it's not like I really have much control over it.
Who does, then?
---There's so much more drama around this story, but I'll leave it at that for you for now.
Your post should be 'my son has a problem' not 'my ex has a problem with my son's problem.'
--- not that I think I am to blame for my son reaching for anyone's bottoms or breasts (although it's been an uphill battle against that perception) …
--- and until now I haven't wanted to make him feel like that's a bad thing.
Him touching three or more girls inappropriately? (Tummy and breasts are correlated) Pretty bad.
---But I've stopped at making him feel like there's something wrong with him that needs to be corrected. I just can’t find the reasons even in myself why it’s inappropriate.
---Besides that, he’s got low self-esteem from my divorce and the ADHD, and I’m not eager to pile on more reasons for him to feel like a little freak.
Um, these are two separate things. I would try my best to frame 'behavior that harms others' separately from his unique identity.
---But I just haven't found the words for telling him why the tummy is a BAD place to put his hands.
You need to have more control over your child, for his sake and others. A lot of things in the world are big no-nos and kids need to understand that (don't go near the scary neighbor, don't point/cry out at someone who looks unusual etc). A lengthy and believable explanation as to why that is the case is secondary.
posted by kinoeye at 10:48 PM on September 28, 2015
No. SPD consists of a huge spectrum. As does ADHD. I know lots of people who have one or the other (I have some SPD) and it's almost impossible to detect.
--- though it's not like I really have much control over it.
Who does, then?
---There's so much more drama around this story, but I'll leave it at that for you for now.
Your post should be 'my son has a problem' not 'my ex has a problem with my son's problem.'
--- not that I think I am to blame for my son reaching for anyone's bottoms or breasts (although it's been an uphill battle against that perception) …
--- and until now I haven't wanted to make him feel like that's a bad thing.
Him touching three or more girls inappropriately? (Tummy and breasts are correlated) Pretty bad.
---But I've stopped at making him feel like there's something wrong with him that needs to be corrected. I just can’t find the reasons even in myself why it’s inappropriate.
---Besides that, he’s got low self-esteem from my divorce and the ADHD, and I’m not eager to pile on more reasons for him to feel like a little freak.
Um, these are two separate things. I would try my best to frame 'behavior that harms others' separately from his unique identity.
---But I just haven't found the words for telling him why the tummy is a BAD place to put his hands.
You need to have more control over your child, for his sake and others. A lot of things in the world are big no-nos and kids need to understand that (don't go near the scary neighbor, don't point/cry out at someone who looks unusual etc). A lengthy and believable explanation as to why that is the case is secondary.
posted by kinoeye at 10:48 PM on September 28, 2015
I see more what gave the impression of me minimizing the issue. Thank you. Can anyone also help with questions one and three?
My original "ask" was specific to how to talk to my son about not reaching for me as a security blanket (morally ok by me) and use that as a tool to teach him not to touch other people (morally not ok).
So when I say I don't want to make him feel like a freak, what I meant is that I don't want to belittle him for reaching for *me* for comfort. My disapproval for him touching others has been loud and clear since the beginning. We just read the book "My Body Is Private" and I think it helped deliver the body autonomy message pretty well.
I am asking the group for advice on helping me break my son of an innocent habit with me that appears to have parlayed itself into a dangerous habit outside his interactions with me.
Can you help by providing more specific examples of things I could say to him? I hear you all on the "My body is mine and you need to ask." He's a kid that does want to please somewhat so he will. Now, what do I say when he asks?
To answer the question about what has happened in the past when I've refused his tummy bids is that he has had meltdowns (he has the explosive type of ADHD). And I mentioned the head banging. His form of compulsion is extremely strong. After being disciplined for inappropriate touching in his father's home, which has included my ex- telling him "You are not supposed to touch your mom's tummy!" my child shows increased anxiety, depression and is less self-regulated over the next few weeks.
More details: The morning after the 16 year old incident, he came to me in the schoolyard where I met them with tears in his eyes and said "I didn't know what I was doing!" And the ex-said said couldn't eat that morning. I don't have visibility into how he's disciplined in his father's home, but the signs I saw were a child that was depressed and belittled. The ex can be overly harsh, from my experience with him as a husband and father. I gave my child a hug that morning after he came to me with tears in his eyes and said what he did. I talked to him briefly about how he should not have touched her private part and that it made her extremely uncomfortable. The bell rang, so the talk ended quickly. I later heard from the ex- that because I hugged my child in that moment, I had "enabled" him.
So I fully admit I am extremely defensive about this subject given the personalities in the mix. And I can see how that bleeds into my language. I am not, however, unconcerned about the need to intervene strongly.
posted by phreckles at 8:52 AM on September 29, 2015
My original "ask" was specific to how to talk to my son about not reaching for me as a security blanket (morally ok by me) and use that as a tool to teach him not to touch other people (morally not ok).
So when I say I don't want to make him feel like a freak, what I meant is that I don't want to belittle him for reaching for *me* for comfort. My disapproval for him touching others has been loud and clear since the beginning. We just read the book "My Body Is Private" and I think it helped deliver the body autonomy message pretty well.
I am asking the group for advice on helping me break my son of an innocent habit with me that appears to have parlayed itself into a dangerous habit outside his interactions with me.
Can you help by providing more specific examples of things I could say to him? I hear you all on the "My body is mine and you need to ask." He's a kid that does want to please somewhat so he will. Now, what do I say when he asks?
To answer the question about what has happened in the past when I've refused his tummy bids is that he has had meltdowns (he has the explosive type of ADHD). And I mentioned the head banging. His form of compulsion is extremely strong. After being disciplined for inappropriate touching in his father's home, which has included my ex- telling him "You are not supposed to touch your mom's tummy!" my child shows increased anxiety, depression and is less self-regulated over the next few weeks.
More details: The morning after the 16 year old incident, he came to me in the schoolyard where I met them with tears in his eyes and said "I didn't know what I was doing!" And the ex-said said couldn't eat that morning. I don't have visibility into how he's disciplined in his father's home, but the signs I saw were a child that was depressed and belittled. The ex can be overly harsh, from my experience with him as a husband and father. I gave my child a hug that morning after he came to me with tears in his eyes and said what he did. I talked to him briefly about how he should not have touched her private part and that it made her extremely uncomfortable. The bell rang, so the talk ended quickly. I later heard from the ex- that because I hugged my child in that moment, I had "enabled" him.
So I fully admit I am extremely defensive about this subject given the personalities in the mix. And I can see how that bleeds into my language. I am not, however, unconcerned about the need to intervene strongly.
posted by phreckles at 8:52 AM on September 29, 2015
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But in fact, I think there is a better reason. People get to be in charge of their own bodies. Nobody should be touched in ways they don't want. Some parts of the body we assume are probably OK to touch unless the other person says no, like hands. Some parts we can touch with friends (unless they say no) but not with others, like hair or legs. Also, if a part is covered, uncovering it to touch is more intimate you should always actually ask with words before you do. Finally some parts are very private and we touch other people unless you are married or its our job to help the person take care of that part (like parent helping with a bath or a doctor helping with a medical problem.) If you aren't sure, it is important to ask. If they say no, don't do it, even if you want to. ("no" means no) You can also add that mothers and babies touch much more and as the child grows up, he gets more privacy for his body so does the mother. so things that are appropriate for babies aren't for older children because both parties (mother and child) get more body privacy.
So, two concepts - degree of privateness of parts and degree of intimacy which leads to rules about asking before touching and who/when it is appropriate to ask or say yes.
Now, it may be very hard for him to follow these rules but that is a different challenge. The first to figure out what the rules really are and to start talking about them so understands the expectations.
posted by metahawk at 10:54 PM on September 27, 2015