To compare saying "brownie" to saying the n-word IS racist, sorry...
September 20, 2015 12:06 PM Subscribe
Coworker wouldn't acknowledge that she said the words "brownie" or "nigger" in the first place. That was a few months ago and the tension making those comments created hasn't gotten better.
I've been working with this social services company for 1.5 years now. With my mixed ethnicity, I'm the only visible minority in this all-"white" workplace. I started out as a casual worker in a stressful program, and earned some respect from staff overall by doing my job well. In April I applied for a more difficult position teaching parenting programs that put me in my own (teeny) office. I have a second job outside of this company delivering workshops on communication for healthy relationships in the public school system.
T (the receptionist) and K (full-time worker in the stressful program) are two middle-aged women who have worked at this company for years. They have a "boys club" mentality with younger staff in which K periodically verbally harasses [probably just female] workers who have less experience than her (so, every casual worker who has to share that office with her). T is close friends with K and functions like a permissive by-stander, gossiping with K about these coworkers behind their backs and sitting back when K makes inappropriate comments at them.
Because it was a shared office space, I used to sit and have lunch with T and K. K and I have had conversations about living in this town, and having bad family history here. It got to a point where K started to get intrusive about it during work, trying to start conversations that would lead towards personal history at inappropriate times. I put up a boundary, explaining that I'm happy to chat about this stuff but it has to be outside of work. I suggested she and I get a coffee together sometime. She never took me up on it, which is fine.
But shortly after I got the new position, I joined T and K for lunch, and within a few minutes of sitting down to join them, K started calling me "brownie" (I have Hindu Indian ethnic heritage, so yes, my skin is browner than most white people's). She literally sat there and kept calling me "brownie", laughing. T sat with her and just watched. When I spoke up to stop K, K cut me off and started talking about how her family used the n-word all the time growing up. Then K and T tried to further normalize it by talking about candies they used to eat called "nigger-babies". This happened in front of other younger staff. I didn't have much of a reaction in the moment because it felt so weird and bizarre -- like I couldn't believe it was actually happening.
I talked to my mom about it, who has much darker skin than me and no doubt has dealt with way worse in her work experience. She affirmed, that even in her work experience, no, "brownie" should not fly from coworkers when addressing you. I waited a few days for a good time to talk to K in a fair way about why what she said was not okay, and if we were going to be friends that I needed to know she wouldn't do that again. She wouldn't even admit to my face that she said those words. Then, predictably, it became an opportunity for her to ask intrusive questions about my personal history. I know I was stuck in confusion about how to make my point when she denied what she said, and let her cross the boundary I had previously put up and ask questions about my personal history (with T sitting at reception, her ears burning of course). BTW, I won't apologize or feel stupid for having foolish judgment about that, because it's seriously a duty of older people to just not be abusive with their power towards younger people -- that's it. I didn't know where to take it from there; I was anxious to address it in a respect-preserving way, and feel that my good intentions were further abused. It was not so different than, say, the dynamic of being molested after working up the guts to tell a creep that you don't like being molested.
So I tried to deal with it one-on-one, but it hasn't been the same. I don't want to spend any time with K now, and I'm starting to feel that way about T, who is the receptionist and someone *everyone* has to be able to work well with. But I don't feel comfortable around either of them anymore, and now with my second job starting, I don't think it's going to get better. I think my other job is just going to be another reason for more digs, put-downs and gossip that are coming from a place of not being able to be happy for others. I'm younger, more educated, in better health, and relatively have more of a future ahead. I do understand that it's unreasonable, in general, to expect others to be happy for your successes.
The boss is a woman close to my age; this is her first management position which she has held for a year now. I had to talk to her last week about cutting down my hours to accommodate the work hours of my second, temporary job. She asked me if it was because of any concerns about coworkers or the work environment. I said no, because I honestly thought at the time that it was no. But even since that, the tension with T and K has felt amplified -- especially because I'm caught expecting them not to be happy and for it to come out in some cutting way with my transition to the second job. T has been somewhat intrusive this past week, coming into my office to ask what's wrong and me maintaining that I'm tense because of the second job starting up, and it's not to be made personal. Right now I am stressed and tense, I have verbalized that several times this week to various coworkers, and that's because that's the best I can think to handle it. Once the second job starts (this coming week) and all my worries about balancing files/clients with my first job are put to rest, I'll be much less tense.
I do honestly believe my boss is a good boss. She used to work in the position I was "promoted" into (ironically... it's a "promotion" in which I'm paid less but am willing to settle on because I enjoy the nature of the work). We enjoy regular positive-focused conversations about how the parenting programs are going with the clients. I don't want to bungle this by accidentally solidifying the social construct that we are fundamentally too different because of skin color to hold the common ground on this issue. I'm concerned that if this gets addressed on a real level, past behavior of K not acknowledging that she said the word "brownie" or "nigger" in the first place will be backed up by T because T is K's long-time friend. I'm worried that I will overreact because I do have long-standing experience with racism; from childhood I trained myself not to react in the moment because that never helps it to stop. To sit there and have these two adults talk about this like it never happened would be a recipe for unnecessary crazy-making, particularly in a work setting.
Note: I haven't gone to HR because it's located in a different city-hub of the larger company network. I am most concerned about this work environment becoming a bad place to work because I want to be able to comfortably return to it when the second temporary job ends. It's been the healthiest work environment I can find in this town for this kind of work -- a point I will be sure to emphasize to my boss.
TLDR; Should I talk to my boss about this, even though the "incident" in which the racial slur was made happened a few months ago? I'm looking for a sense of what a good outcome could look like, so any advice or anecdotes about having made mistakes in similar situations and on how to mindfully transcend the racial gap in this situation would be appreciated. Reassurance that I'm not irrational for this to be eating at me, months after it happened, would be also appreciated. Thanks!
I've been working with this social services company for 1.5 years now. With my mixed ethnicity, I'm the only visible minority in this all-"white" workplace. I started out as a casual worker in a stressful program, and earned some respect from staff overall by doing my job well. In April I applied for a more difficult position teaching parenting programs that put me in my own (teeny) office. I have a second job outside of this company delivering workshops on communication for healthy relationships in the public school system.
T (the receptionist) and K (full-time worker in the stressful program) are two middle-aged women who have worked at this company for years. They have a "boys club" mentality with younger staff in which K periodically verbally harasses [probably just female] workers who have less experience than her (so, every casual worker who has to share that office with her). T is close friends with K and functions like a permissive by-stander, gossiping with K about these coworkers behind their backs and sitting back when K makes inappropriate comments at them.
Because it was a shared office space, I used to sit and have lunch with T and K. K and I have had conversations about living in this town, and having bad family history here. It got to a point where K started to get intrusive about it during work, trying to start conversations that would lead towards personal history at inappropriate times. I put up a boundary, explaining that I'm happy to chat about this stuff but it has to be outside of work. I suggested she and I get a coffee together sometime. She never took me up on it, which is fine.
But shortly after I got the new position, I joined T and K for lunch, and within a few minutes of sitting down to join them, K started calling me "brownie" (I have Hindu Indian ethnic heritage, so yes, my skin is browner than most white people's). She literally sat there and kept calling me "brownie", laughing. T sat with her and just watched. When I spoke up to stop K, K cut me off and started talking about how her family used the n-word all the time growing up. Then K and T tried to further normalize it by talking about candies they used to eat called "nigger-babies". This happened in front of other younger staff. I didn't have much of a reaction in the moment because it felt so weird and bizarre -- like I couldn't believe it was actually happening.
I talked to my mom about it, who has much darker skin than me and no doubt has dealt with way worse in her work experience. She affirmed, that even in her work experience, no, "brownie" should not fly from coworkers when addressing you. I waited a few days for a good time to talk to K in a fair way about why what she said was not okay, and if we were going to be friends that I needed to know she wouldn't do that again. She wouldn't even admit to my face that she said those words. Then, predictably, it became an opportunity for her to ask intrusive questions about my personal history. I know I was stuck in confusion about how to make my point when she denied what she said, and let her cross the boundary I had previously put up and ask questions about my personal history (with T sitting at reception, her ears burning of course). BTW, I won't apologize or feel stupid for having foolish judgment about that, because it's seriously a duty of older people to just not be abusive with their power towards younger people -- that's it. I didn't know where to take it from there; I was anxious to address it in a respect-preserving way, and feel that my good intentions were further abused. It was not so different than, say, the dynamic of being molested after working up the guts to tell a creep that you don't like being molested.
So I tried to deal with it one-on-one, but it hasn't been the same. I don't want to spend any time with K now, and I'm starting to feel that way about T, who is the receptionist and someone *everyone* has to be able to work well with. But I don't feel comfortable around either of them anymore, and now with my second job starting, I don't think it's going to get better. I think my other job is just going to be another reason for more digs, put-downs and gossip that are coming from a place of not being able to be happy for others. I'm younger, more educated, in better health, and relatively have more of a future ahead. I do understand that it's unreasonable, in general, to expect others to be happy for your successes.
The boss is a woman close to my age; this is her first management position which she has held for a year now. I had to talk to her last week about cutting down my hours to accommodate the work hours of my second, temporary job. She asked me if it was because of any concerns about coworkers or the work environment. I said no, because I honestly thought at the time that it was no. But even since that, the tension with T and K has felt amplified -- especially because I'm caught expecting them not to be happy and for it to come out in some cutting way with my transition to the second job. T has been somewhat intrusive this past week, coming into my office to ask what's wrong and me maintaining that I'm tense because of the second job starting up, and it's not to be made personal. Right now I am stressed and tense, I have verbalized that several times this week to various coworkers, and that's because that's the best I can think to handle it. Once the second job starts (this coming week) and all my worries about balancing files/clients with my first job are put to rest, I'll be much less tense.
I do honestly believe my boss is a good boss. She used to work in the position I was "promoted" into (ironically... it's a "promotion" in which I'm paid less but am willing to settle on because I enjoy the nature of the work). We enjoy regular positive-focused conversations about how the parenting programs are going with the clients. I don't want to bungle this by accidentally solidifying the social construct that we are fundamentally too different because of skin color to hold the common ground on this issue. I'm concerned that if this gets addressed on a real level, past behavior of K not acknowledging that she said the word "brownie" or "nigger" in the first place will be backed up by T because T is K's long-time friend. I'm worried that I will overreact because I do have long-standing experience with racism; from childhood I trained myself not to react in the moment because that never helps it to stop. To sit there and have these two adults talk about this like it never happened would be a recipe for unnecessary crazy-making, particularly in a work setting.
Note: I haven't gone to HR because it's located in a different city-hub of the larger company network. I am most concerned about this work environment becoming a bad place to work because I want to be able to comfortably return to it when the second temporary job ends. It's been the healthiest work environment I can find in this town for this kind of work -- a point I will be sure to emphasize to my boss.
TLDR; Should I talk to my boss about this, even though the "incident" in which the racial slur was made happened a few months ago? I'm looking for a sense of what a good outcome could look like, so any advice or anecdotes about having made mistakes in similar situations and on how to mindfully transcend the racial gap in this situation would be appreciated. Reassurance that I'm not irrational for this to be eating at me, months after it happened, would be also appreciated. Thanks!
No, you are not wrong, irrational or hypersensitive to have this ignorant, snide racism bother you - I'm bothered on your behalf. What a nasty pair. In terms of talking to your boss, I would say yes, do so, if you feel comfortable doing so. I think there is a huge clue in terms of your being listened to sympathetically in that she actually asked you, when you spoke to her about cutting your hours, whether it was to do with your co-workers. I am pretty certain there will have other complaints from your younger female colleagues over time about these two. Speaking to the boss may enable her to take action in terms of mandating sensitivity training or other management programmes that will make it difficult for the pair of them to undermine other people in future.
I'm really very sorry you've had to suffer their pernicious and ill-natured behaviours.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 12:25 PM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm really very sorry you've had to suffer their pernicious and ill-natured behaviours.
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 12:25 PM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a hostile work environment. They're making you feel uncomfortable working there because of the slurs they spoke in front of you. You have every right to feel offended and to pursue a complaint.
Know they will never acknowledge to anyone that they said what they said. That doesn't mean that they won't be admonished or fired. You don't know if this has been something someone has complained about before.
If you feel comfortable about speaking to your boss about such things, talk to her. If you don't, communicate your concerns to HR. Document everything. If you approach your boss and she does nothing, then escalate the issue to HR.
My best to you.
posted by inturnaround at 12:28 PM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Know they will never acknowledge to anyone that they said what they said. That doesn't mean that they won't be admonished or fired. You don't know if this has been something someone has complained about before.
If you feel comfortable about speaking to your boss about such things, talk to her. If you don't, communicate your concerns to HR. Document everything. If you approach your boss and she does nothing, then escalate the issue to HR.
My best to you.
posted by inturnaround at 12:28 PM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
This was never resolved satisfactorily so you have every reason to still be upset about this months later.
It's clear your boss already knows there might be problems with these people. I would start by talking with her about this situation and what might be done. Even if your co-workers do not face discipline for this incident, your manager will probably want to keep a closer eye on them in the future, or may be able to find ways so that you don't have to interact with these people.
Getting an independent witness would help if you think that T and K are going to deny that this happened.
posted by grouse at 12:34 PM on September 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's clear your boss already knows there might be problems with these people. I would start by talking with her about this situation and what might be done. Even if your co-workers do not face discipline for this incident, your manager will probably want to keep a closer eye on them in the future, or may be able to find ways so that you don't have to interact with these people.
Getting an independent witness would help if you think that T and K are going to deny that this happened.
posted by grouse at 12:34 PM on September 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Terrible people get what they want because we're trying to be better and more appropriate. Meanwhile they're driving over your lawn. I commend your attention to detail and caution with behavior, but it is time for you to loosen up and speak up a little.
I understand that we have to be "better" than them, and I get why often we are shoeboxed into a limited set of behaviors. Otherwise they call us the crazy ones. But.
I often ask myself what a straight white man would do in a situation. And it's always way more aggressive and self-preserving than what I would do for myself. It's time for us to stand up and take up space and not back down. No entitled person would have put up with these horrible people for ten seconds! They would have been yelled out of the office and into a meeting with everyone's boss! They're running roughshod over this office, like mean teenage girls, because everyone is letting them!
posted by RJ Reynolds at 1:36 PM on September 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
I understand that we have to be "better" than them, and I get why often we are shoeboxed into a limited set of behaviors. Otherwise they call us the crazy ones. But.
I often ask myself what a straight white man would do in a situation. And it's always way more aggressive and self-preserving than what I would do for myself. It's time for us to stand up and take up space and not back down. No entitled person would have put up with these horrible people for ten seconds! They would have been yelled out of the office and into a meeting with everyone's boss! They're running roughshod over this office, like mean teenage girls, because everyone is letting them!
posted by RJ Reynolds at 1:36 PM on September 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, you should speak to both your boss and the HR department about this incident. I think one thing that can help relieve the anxiety and tension and defensiveness around these sorts of conversations is to assume best intentions (even if they weren't) and too keep emotion to a minimum.
So preface you recounting of the incident with something like...
I don't believe T & K were trying to intentionally make me uncomfortable or be inappropriate, but that was the outcome.
Then I think you need to ask for solutions that include the entire staff, that way the possibility that T & K feel singled out is minimized. Possible solutions include...
- Discussing the rules and regulations around what constitutes creating a hostile work environment at the next all staff meeting. It's a refresher for everyone.
- Having HR come to the office to deliver a training or requiring every employee get retrained and sign a completion certificate.
- Bringing in a consultant to deliver training on cultural competency.
- Making sure your boss sets the tone in all group meetings by emphasizing that she places a high priority on equity and cultural competency in the workplace.
- Instituting regular employee surveys so people know there will be an opportunity to raise issues.
And then you can just set boundaries. Just because you're in the same office doesn't mean you need to socialize with T & K. You can politely refuse invitations to have lunch and excuse yourself from conversations. You're under no obligation to explain your reasons for keeping your distance.
If you're worried about looking like the office grouch, then work with other people in the office to come up with opportunities to socialize in a larger group where you don't have to exclusively spend time with T & K. Monthly happy hour or office potluck lunches.
posted by brookeb at 4:56 PM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
So preface you recounting of the incident with something like...
I don't believe T & K were trying to intentionally make me uncomfortable or be inappropriate, but that was the outcome.
Then I think you need to ask for solutions that include the entire staff, that way the possibility that T & K feel singled out is minimized. Possible solutions include...
- Discussing the rules and regulations around what constitutes creating a hostile work environment at the next all staff meeting. It's a refresher for everyone.
- Having HR come to the office to deliver a training or requiring every employee get retrained and sign a completion certificate.
- Bringing in a consultant to deliver training on cultural competency.
- Making sure your boss sets the tone in all group meetings by emphasizing that she places a high priority on equity and cultural competency in the workplace.
- Instituting regular employee surveys so people know there will be an opportunity to raise issues.
And then you can just set boundaries. Just because you're in the same office doesn't mean you need to socialize with T & K. You can politely refuse invitations to have lunch and excuse yourself from conversations. You're under no obligation to explain your reasons for keeping your distance.
If you're worried about looking like the office grouch, then work with other people in the office to come up with opportunities to socialize in a larger group where you don't have to exclusively spend time with T & K. Monthly happy hour or office potluck lunches.
posted by brookeb at 4:56 PM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone for your insightful replies, and especially those replies with specific suggestions regarding HR. In case anyone reads this thread with a similar concern in the future, here's what I did for an outcome that went well.
I texted my boss on her work cell yesterday, late morning, that I'd like to chat with her about the work environment, and that it was non-urgent. She called me right away, asked to make a time to connect in the afternoon, at which we did chat. I expressed concern about the behavior of two employees contributing to a hostile work environment. I was able to trace my footsteps in my work agenda and outline the dates when these conversations happened, and who was there to witness/overhear (which can be further verified by the organization's employee schedule). My boss praised my approach to resolve the situation one-on-one. Because our company audit is tomorrow, I let her know I was open to touching base on this again next week. She encouraged me to think about what specific changes might help to improve the work environment, and was open to involving HR to direct some changes. I'm satisfied with the conversation's outcome.
Re: apology. No, the damage is too far gone. People who specifically use what power they have to enable themselves to degrade others is really something that offends me, even if I don't let the fact that it offends me immediately show. It's something my brain never forgets noticing, and it simply breaks my trust for that person to do the right thing -- especially in this line of work, where doing the right thing can vividly make or break the quality of life for families.
Re: getting into terms like "race-based". The conversation with my boss didn't even go there. Just stating the facts -- especially the descriptive term used for referencing certain candies -- was enough to embarrass my boss, who apologized on behalf of the company. What was far more obvious was the systemic bullying behavior of these two staff than it ever was about race. FWIW, it's been systemic enough that my boss was willing to share that when she initially became the manager (over a year ago), she was told directly by *some* staff (she did not name names) that she was not a good fit and would not cut it. I have no problem believing it.
A special note to others navigating similar experiences: the harm of racist (and sexist, homophobic, and other hate-driven) comments is that my past younger self might have believed them -- that I am so hard to recognize because of this superficial feature -- that I might have seen a white woman to go through rather than a person in my boss. A lovely irony is that my boss shares the heritage of my "white" side, but that didn't have to come up either. It was more than enough that my boss had this conversation with me: "even if I had known you for years, I would never call you a brownie." I actually balked and replied, "well especially not at work", and she looked right at me and said, "no, never."
Thanks Metafilter!
posted by human ecologist at 8:50 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I texted my boss on her work cell yesterday, late morning, that I'd like to chat with her about the work environment, and that it was non-urgent. She called me right away, asked to make a time to connect in the afternoon, at which we did chat. I expressed concern about the behavior of two employees contributing to a hostile work environment. I was able to trace my footsteps in my work agenda and outline the dates when these conversations happened, and who was there to witness/overhear (which can be further verified by the organization's employee schedule). My boss praised my approach to resolve the situation one-on-one. Because our company audit is tomorrow, I let her know I was open to touching base on this again next week. She encouraged me to think about what specific changes might help to improve the work environment, and was open to involving HR to direct some changes. I'm satisfied with the conversation's outcome.
Re: apology. No, the damage is too far gone. People who specifically use what power they have to enable themselves to degrade others is really something that offends me, even if I don't let the fact that it offends me immediately show. It's something my brain never forgets noticing, and it simply breaks my trust for that person to do the right thing -- especially in this line of work, where doing the right thing can vividly make or break the quality of life for families.
Re: getting into terms like "race-based". The conversation with my boss didn't even go there. Just stating the facts -- especially the descriptive term used for referencing certain candies -- was enough to embarrass my boss, who apologized on behalf of the company. What was far more obvious was the systemic bullying behavior of these two staff than it ever was about race. FWIW, it's been systemic enough that my boss was willing to share that when she initially became the manager (over a year ago), she was told directly by *some* staff (she did not name names) that she was not a good fit and would not cut it. I have no problem believing it.
A special note to others navigating similar experiences: the harm of racist (and sexist, homophobic, and other hate-driven) comments is that my past younger self might have believed them -- that I am so hard to recognize because of this superficial feature -- that I might have seen a white woman to go through rather than a person in my boss. A lovely irony is that my boss shares the heritage of my "white" side, but that didn't have to come up either. It was more than enough that my boss had this conversation with me: "even if I had known you for years, I would never call you a brownie." I actually balked and replied, "well especially not at work", and she looked right at me and said, "no, never."
Thanks Metafilter!
posted by human ecologist at 8:50 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
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Reassurance that I'm not irrational for this to be eating at me, months after it happened
You aren't irrational. This is real racism in an environment where you should feel protected against racial slurs and attacks on your race - that's the purpose of safe workplace laws. I would encourage you not to view this as a "incident" or "crazy-making", but as an actual attack on your identity - which is was.
Should I talk to my boss about this
I don't know.
What do you want to get out of this?
Do you want T and/or K fired? That's a reasonable request. If you go to the boss to get T and/or K fired, then you will have to deal with the chance that your story is questioned. It will be, because if T and/or K value their jobs at all, they will deny your version of the story. Are the other young staff members at the meeting still at the organization, and if so, have you talked to them about it? That'd help you out. If they are no longer at the organization, then it seems to me like you have no evidence of the conversation happening, which means that your boss will not be able to do anything actionable about the conversation, which means you'll just further increase tension with T and/or K.
Do you want T and/or K to apologize? That won't happen. If they apologize, then your organization is either faced with tolerating blatant racism and a hostile workplace (both of which violate federal law) or firing them. So, they won't apologize.
Do you want T and/or K to change? That's not likely either - anyone that uses racial slurs like that is either sufficiently racist or sufficiently clueless (or both) to not change. Further, at the risk of speculating without any evidence, they may actually believe the conversation didn't happen. I've met a few people that are simultaneously capable of explicit racism while denying anything racist they say.
I realize that these answers aren't very helpful, nor are they very encouraging. However, you are in an area where there are no good legal answers. Due to federal law, your boss will be forced to move to legal answers. If you want to deal with this outside legal answers (which will involve employee termination and/or sanctions), you will have to do it away from your boss.
posted by saeculorum at 12:22 PM on September 20, 2015 [11 favorites]