When to start a family - how to find our bearings?
September 2, 2015 11:29 AM
My husband and I are in our early 30's. He is in a big hurry to start a family, believes that our window of time is rapidly closing and feels that soon it will be too late. I am not ready for this, and do not share his sense of urgency. I've told him that if it were up to me, I would postpone trying to conceive for one more year, but if that would be a deal breaker for him, I would suck it up and start trying now. He does not want to force me, but fears that if I'm not ready now I may never be ready. How do we find our way through this quagmire of emotions and practical considerations?
Apologies for the wall of text. My husband and I both turned 32 in recent months. We have been married for about 5 years. We pursued post-graduate degrees, and so started our careers relatively late in life. We also live in an incredibly expensive city with a housing market that is off the rails. We make about $200K combined before tax, and are comfortable, but we are by no means well off. It's not possible for us to consider moving to smaller cities due to their lack of employment opportunities in our industry.
When we met, we were in our early 20's. Back then, I was big on the idea of being a young mom. It was unrealistic, given our academic and career trajectories, and entirely driven by hormones and my general dissatisfaction with feeling like we were nowhere near being settled and putting roots down anywhere. We didn't know where we were going to live, whether we were going to get married, or whether we'd find good jobs. He had no desire for a family at this time. Eventually my urge to start a family started to wane as we got our footing in life. We got married, bought a fantastic apartment that I love, and have both made big strides in our careers.
I fell in love with our life the way it is now. We have so much freedom, we both spend significant time on hobbies and activities that are not particularly baby friendly, as well as lots of overtime at work which has enabled us to get ahead. We are financially secure, and we have all the space we need for the two of us. I think a big factor driving my perspective is my circle of friends. Most do not have children yet, and those who do tend to be older than we are. Nobody seems in a rush. I still feel young, and not like my eggs are shriveling up. I've read the studies on fertility, and I'm comfortable with waiting a while longer.
My husband caught the baby bug about two years ago, as far as I can tell. He wanted to start a family last year, and I told him I needed more time. I wasn't ready yet to give everything up. And I made it very clear to him that this was a much harder choice for me to make, and I needed him to respect that. Given that it's my body and health, my personal identity, my career, and my social life that will be impacted much more severely than his, at least for the first while, I felt that it was not unfair of me to have the say in when we start trying. I asked for one more summer to have my body to myself and to come to terms with the impending changes in our lives.
We were supposed to start trying next week. I am still not ready. I struggled with whether or not I should be honest with my husband, and ultimately decided to tell him how I feel. I am terrified that if I'm not mentally and emotionally on board with this, pregnancy and childbirth could be a traumatic experience that would result in resentment towards my husband and my child. I am also prone to depression, and am very wary of postpartum depression. I told him that if it were up to me, I'd wait another year. Aside from my mental and emotional readiness, we'd be in a better financial situation too. My husband is devastated. He thinks if we start trying next year, if we don't get pregnant right away we may be too late. He thinks we have waited long enough already, that we may be in a bad spot if we end up having fertility issues, and fears being too old to try for a second.
He asked me to understand that from his perspective, I've been "sending mixed signals" and flip flopping on having kids. After my baby fever in my early 20's, I did go through a period of exploring the possibility of a child free life. I still felt that I would want children eventually, but with such a huge decision, I needed to think through all the possibilities. I read articles about women who had children and regretted it. I read about couples who live fulfilling lives of adventure, made possible only by foregoing children. My husband doesn't trust that this was a part of my journey, rather he feels that this was me waffling, and a sign that he can't trust what I say about it now. I am telling him that I definitely want kids, just not now. He says that if I'm not ready now, I can't promise him that I will be ready in a year, or that I will ever be ready. I fear that he may actually be contemplating leaving me over this.
From my perspective, he's putting a very arbitrary deadline on having kids. I also feel that he has little understanding of the practical demands of raising children, and that his idea of what it means to be a father is very much in the abstract. He has shown little interest in babies at all. One of our closest friend couples had a baby last year, and while I am head over heels in love with their little girl and spend time with her at least once a week, my husband would rather stay home on his computer than come with me. He actually hangs out with these friends less since their baby was born. The baby doesn't even know him, she doesn't recognize his face. I get that it's different when it's not your own kid. But I don't think he appreciates what it means to have a baby, because he has never spent any significant time with one. Rather, he talks about kids in terms of being able to show them the constellations in the sky, and having people to cherish and care about us in our old age.
He is also very rigid about certain things, and gets stressed if there is a little bit of clutter in our apartment (if I hang my purse on the chair when I get home, he will pick it up and move it to the bedroom where it can't be seen, even if no one is coming over), if we don't have a huge money cushion in our budget each month (we are putting away about $5000 in savings every month, and he still stresses about money sometimes), if we are not exercising at least 3-4 times a week (he values fitness very much, not just for himself but for me too, in a way that sometimes makes me worried about my postpartum body). We used to get into fights over these things. He has been trying to keep his neuroses from affecting me so much, since he knows I am concerned about his control freak tendencies and his ability to go with the flow when we have kids, and has done a very good job of it. But I am afraid that with the massive stress of a new baby he will not be able to help himself.
I don't know what to do. I don't think there's a right or wrong in this situation. I think that when one person is not ready, especially when that person is going to be the one growing and carrying the baby, the default should be to wait. But my husband is so, so upset by the thought of having to wait any longer. He is afraid and while he said he wants my honesty, he feels that I am unreliable. I disagree, but I know he can't help how he feels, and I know from experience that it's terrible to feel like you're being strung along. I suggested a compromise, that we wait until the new year to start trying, but he wants me to be just as excited as him. He doesn't want me to feel like I'm being forced into pregnancy, which I agree would be awful for him too.
I'm reaching out to Mefites who have been through this or similar situations, to ask how you managed to find a resolution. What did you do? What helped you to get on the same page? What was the outcome of your decision? Are either me or my husband being unreasonable or blind to more important considerations? What are we missing here?
Apologies for the wall of text. My husband and I both turned 32 in recent months. We have been married for about 5 years. We pursued post-graduate degrees, and so started our careers relatively late in life. We also live in an incredibly expensive city with a housing market that is off the rails. We make about $200K combined before tax, and are comfortable, but we are by no means well off. It's not possible for us to consider moving to smaller cities due to their lack of employment opportunities in our industry.
When we met, we were in our early 20's. Back then, I was big on the idea of being a young mom. It was unrealistic, given our academic and career trajectories, and entirely driven by hormones and my general dissatisfaction with feeling like we were nowhere near being settled and putting roots down anywhere. We didn't know where we were going to live, whether we were going to get married, or whether we'd find good jobs. He had no desire for a family at this time. Eventually my urge to start a family started to wane as we got our footing in life. We got married, bought a fantastic apartment that I love, and have both made big strides in our careers.
I fell in love with our life the way it is now. We have so much freedom, we both spend significant time on hobbies and activities that are not particularly baby friendly, as well as lots of overtime at work which has enabled us to get ahead. We are financially secure, and we have all the space we need for the two of us. I think a big factor driving my perspective is my circle of friends. Most do not have children yet, and those who do tend to be older than we are. Nobody seems in a rush. I still feel young, and not like my eggs are shriveling up. I've read the studies on fertility, and I'm comfortable with waiting a while longer.
My husband caught the baby bug about two years ago, as far as I can tell. He wanted to start a family last year, and I told him I needed more time. I wasn't ready yet to give everything up. And I made it very clear to him that this was a much harder choice for me to make, and I needed him to respect that. Given that it's my body and health, my personal identity, my career, and my social life that will be impacted much more severely than his, at least for the first while, I felt that it was not unfair of me to have the say in when we start trying. I asked for one more summer to have my body to myself and to come to terms with the impending changes in our lives.
We were supposed to start trying next week. I am still not ready. I struggled with whether or not I should be honest with my husband, and ultimately decided to tell him how I feel. I am terrified that if I'm not mentally and emotionally on board with this, pregnancy and childbirth could be a traumatic experience that would result in resentment towards my husband and my child. I am also prone to depression, and am very wary of postpartum depression. I told him that if it were up to me, I'd wait another year. Aside from my mental and emotional readiness, we'd be in a better financial situation too. My husband is devastated. He thinks if we start trying next year, if we don't get pregnant right away we may be too late. He thinks we have waited long enough already, that we may be in a bad spot if we end up having fertility issues, and fears being too old to try for a second.
He asked me to understand that from his perspective, I've been "sending mixed signals" and flip flopping on having kids. After my baby fever in my early 20's, I did go through a period of exploring the possibility of a child free life. I still felt that I would want children eventually, but with such a huge decision, I needed to think through all the possibilities. I read articles about women who had children and regretted it. I read about couples who live fulfilling lives of adventure, made possible only by foregoing children. My husband doesn't trust that this was a part of my journey, rather he feels that this was me waffling, and a sign that he can't trust what I say about it now. I am telling him that I definitely want kids, just not now. He says that if I'm not ready now, I can't promise him that I will be ready in a year, or that I will ever be ready. I fear that he may actually be contemplating leaving me over this.
From my perspective, he's putting a very arbitrary deadline on having kids. I also feel that he has little understanding of the practical demands of raising children, and that his idea of what it means to be a father is very much in the abstract. He has shown little interest in babies at all. One of our closest friend couples had a baby last year, and while I am head over heels in love with their little girl and spend time with her at least once a week, my husband would rather stay home on his computer than come with me. He actually hangs out with these friends less since their baby was born. The baby doesn't even know him, she doesn't recognize his face. I get that it's different when it's not your own kid. But I don't think he appreciates what it means to have a baby, because he has never spent any significant time with one. Rather, he talks about kids in terms of being able to show them the constellations in the sky, and having people to cherish and care about us in our old age.
He is also very rigid about certain things, and gets stressed if there is a little bit of clutter in our apartment (if I hang my purse on the chair when I get home, he will pick it up and move it to the bedroom where it can't be seen, even if no one is coming over), if we don't have a huge money cushion in our budget each month (we are putting away about $5000 in savings every month, and he still stresses about money sometimes), if we are not exercising at least 3-4 times a week (he values fitness very much, not just for himself but for me too, in a way that sometimes makes me worried about my postpartum body). We used to get into fights over these things. He has been trying to keep his neuroses from affecting me so much, since he knows I am concerned about his control freak tendencies and his ability to go with the flow when we have kids, and has done a very good job of it. But I am afraid that with the massive stress of a new baby he will not be able to help himself.
I don't know what to do. I don't think there's a right or wrong in this situation. I think that when one person is not ready, especially when that person is going to be the one growing and carrying the baby, the default should be to wait. But my husband is so, so upset by the thought of having to wait any longer. He is afraid and while he said he wants my honesty, he feels that I am unreliable. I disagree, but I know he can't help how he feels, and I know from experience that it's terrible to feel like you're being strung along. I suggested a compromise, that we wait until the new year to start trying, but he wants me to be just as excited as him. He doesn't want me to feel like I'm being forced into pregnancy, which I agree would be awful for him too.
I'm reaching out to Mefites who have been through this or similar situations, to ask how you managed to find a resolution. What did you do? What helped you to get on the same page? What was the outcome of your decision? Are either me or my husband being unreasonable or blind to more important considerations? What are we missing here?
I am still not ready.
This is all that matters.
posted by headnsouth at 11:37 AM on September 2, 2015
This is all that matters.
posted by headnsouth at 11:37 AM on September 2, 2015
1. Counseling. Having a neutral third-party to help you two unpack and sort through things would likely be really helpful.
2. Setting time deadlines for something like this seems like an express train to resentment-town.
3. If you're not sure you'll ever be ready to give up your life (as you know it), he'll need to decide if that's a dealbreaker for him.
4. Counseling.
posted by ApathyGirl at 11:45 AM on September 2, 2015
2. Setting time deadlines for something like this seems like an express train to resentment-town.
3. If you're not sure you'll ever be ready to give up your life (as you know it), he'll need to decide if that's a dealbreaker for him.
4. Counseling.
posted by ApathyGirl at 11:45 AM on September 2, 2015
you say you've read the studies about fertility - has your husband? specifically the detail about how most of the "the window is closing!!!" stuff is based on 300 yr old catholic birth records. you likely have a lot of time left and he has even more. he can be disappointed, but short of leaving you, being disappointed is pretty much all he can do. you have to be ready. you do owe it to him to tell him if you'll never be ready, but if you think in another year or two that you'll be there, that's where it stays.
posted by nadawi at 11:47 AM on September 2, 2015
posted by nadawi at 11:47 AM on September 2, 2015
Therapy is the standard Ask answer, and therapy is what I suggest to you as a couple. You should sit down for several sessions with a couples' counselor and hash this all out. If you don't think you have the time or money for couples' counseling, I think you probably have your answer about babies, too (because they be expensive and time-consuming!) If you don't really go for the therapy thing, tough. Do some homework, find one you like, and do 6 sessions. Unless you start uncovering deeper issues, I bet those will be what you need to deal with this problem right now.
I think he's putting a lot of pressure on you and unnecessarily freaking out about your ages. I think you should feel comfortable with the process and be ready for what's ahead, because pregnancy is no joke. It's rough and risky and it sucks, sucks, sucks for so many women. And it only ends when you become a parent! And that's no joke either!
But to add anecdata (which you will get a lot of in this thread):
I had made a nice adult life amongst the childfree in my mid-30s when I married my husband and promptly got pregnant. It was terrifying to think of how much our lives would change, when we were used to being happy adults with freedom!
And things did change, oh yessirree. But the baby is so worth it. He's so worth all the change and every sleepless night and every early morning and every rush to the ER and every penny he costs in daycare and formula and all the other baby needs. We are so in love with him. I can't wait to spend time with him. He lights up my whole world with his smile. He just turned one, and this past year has been the best year and the hardest year of my life. I agree with everyone who says that there is no right time to have a baby, and everyone who says that having kids means less fun in your life but more joy. I think that's so accurate. Maybe I haven't had as much adult fun in the last year, but the joy he brings me is beyond measure.
I can't speak for you. You know you better. I really recommend you both talk to a counselor to help you hash this out fairly.
posted by aabbbiee at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2015
I think he's putting a lot of pressure on you and unnecessarily freaking out about your ages. I think you should feel comfortable with the process and be ready for what's ahead, because pregnancy is no joke. It's rough and risky and it sucks, sucks, sucks for so many women. And it only ends when you become a parent! And that's no joke either!
But to add anecdata (which you will get a lot of in this thread):
I had made a nice adult life amongst the childfree in my mid-30s when I married my husband and promptly got pregnant. It was terrifying to think of how much our lives would change, when we were used to being happy adults with freedom!
And things did change, oh yessirree. But the baby is so worth it. He's so worth all the change and every sleepless night and every early morning and every rush to the ER and every penny he costs in daycare and formula and all the other baby needs. We are so in love with him. I can't wait to spend time with him. He lights up my whole world with his smile. He just turned one, and this past year has been the best year and the hardest year of my life. I agree with everyone who says that there is no right time to have a baby, and everyone who says that having kids means less fun in your life but more joy. I think that's so accurate. Maybe I haven't had as much adult fun in the last year, but the joy he brings me is beyond measure.
I can't speak for you. You know you better. I really recommend you both talk to a counselor to help you hash this out fairly.
posted by aabbbiee at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2015
The big problem with having or not having kids is that it matters. A lot. If one person wants a big family and the other person wants a small family then there is a middle ground (fewer kids, but spaced further apart, maybe). There is no middle ground between having kids and not having them.
I believe he is being unfair. I also believe that is legitimately unsure about whether or not you actually want kids. You do seem to be sending mixed signals. You said "wait" and he waited and now you are saying "wait some more". Please understand that I know that you control your body and you shouldn't do this unless you are at least 106% sure that you want to, but I can also see it from his point of view. That doesn't mean I think his behavior is acceptable, but I can see his position.
I think you need some couples therapy.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2015
I believe he is being unfair. I also believe that is legitimately unsure about whether or not you actually want kids. You do seem to be sending mixed signals. You said "wait" and he waited and now you are saying "wait some more". Please understand that I know that you control your body and you shouldn't do this unless you are at least 106% sure that you want to, but I can also see it from his point of view. That doesn't mean I think his behavior is acceptable, but I can see his position.
I think you need some couples therapy.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2015
I have been in the place of not having close friends with kids and agonizing over whether and when to get pregnant. Moving to a place where I had more close family and friends with small children was helpful, because it provided a counter-narrative to the (in my opinion) pervasive message that having kids a career-killing slog that will make you miserable. Watching couples who I liked have babies and remain happy was helpful in convincing me I could make the jump.
That might not be helpful, I just want to point out that it sounds like you've spent some time consuming media that paints having kids in a really negative light, and that can be a biased perspective in its own way. It might be helpful to look at your close friend couple: do they seem happy? Could you imagine yourself living their life and being happy?
Second, one major thing I insisted upon from my husband before I would seriously let us start trying was a commitment that he'd take the full 12 weeks of (unpaid) FMLA as paternity leave after I went back to work from maternity leave. One thing that I saw when I observed my circle of friends and families with small kids is that there was a ton of variation in how involved the dads were, and that seemed to correlate strongly with how stressed and resentful the moms were. I felt like it was easy for my partner to say "of course I'll be an involved parent! I'll love my kid!"--but that really agreeing that he'd take the (potential) career hit and financial hit of requesting a full FMLA leave was where the rubber met the road. Despite his desire to have kids, it took him a few months to adjust and embrace the idea of making that (concrete) sacrifice if we had kids, and by the time he did I was much more certain I wouldn't be stuck doing 90% of the childcare. We have a 20-month-old and I look at that insistence on paternity leave as the single smartest parenting decision I've made so far.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:51 AM on September 2, 2015
That might not be helpful, I just want to point out that it sounds like you've spent some time consuming media that paints having kids in a really negative light, and that can be a biased perspective in its own way. It might be helpful to look at your close friend couple: do they seem happy? Could you imagine yourself living their life and being happy?
Second, one major thing I insisted upon from my husband before I would seriously let us start trying was a commitment that he'd take the full 12 weeks of (unpaid) FMLA as paternity leave after I went back to work from maternity leave. One thing that I saw when I observed my circle of friends and families with small kids is that there was a ton of variation in how involved the dads were, and that seemed to correlate strongly with how stressed and resentful the moms were. I felt like it was easy for my partner to say "of course I'll be an involved parent! I'll love my kid!"--but that really agreeing that he'd take the (potential) career hit and financial hit of requesting a full FMLA leave was where the rubber met the road. Despite his desire to have kids, it took him a few months to adjust and embrace the idea of making that (concrete) sacrifice if we had kids, and by the time he did I was much more certain I wouldn't be stuck doing 90% of the childcare. We have a 20-month-old and I look at that insistence on paternity leave as the single smartest parenting decision I've made so far.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:51 AM on September 2, 2015
Your gut feeling is telling you something and I don't think there is any other answer than to listen to it. If your husband can't wait then it's time to separate and find some space to think things over without pressure or fear.
posted by waving at 11:52 AM on September 2, 2015
posted by waving at 11:52 AM on September 2, 2015
> Are either me or my husband being ... blind to more important considerations?
Being a parent is so hard, my god. Both parents need to be maximally on board just to survive, and I say this as someone who could have written much of your post and then chose to get pregnant. I know deep within myself how hard it is to feel regret while simultaneously loving the new creature you've made. Please wait. I would say that just as strongly if you and your husband had the opposite perspectives.
Honestly it sounds like a lot of your concerns have to do with him and how he will step up to the challenge of parenthood (the mess, the baby experience.) I would lay those out really clearly and emphasize that he needs active practice with the reality of living with a child, and some more work on his neatness concerns, so that he can go into this understanding what will be required of him, and for you to be able to consider the changes ahead as a unit.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:57 AM on September 2, 2015
Being a parent is so hard, my god. Both parents need to be maximally on board just to survive, and I say this as someone who could have written much of your post and then chose to get pregnant. I know deep within myself how hard it is to feel regret while simultaneously loving the new creature you've made. Please wait. I would say that just as strongly if you and your husband had the opposite perspectives.
Honestly it sounds like a lot of your concerns have to do with him and how he will step up to the challenge of parenthood (the mess, the baby experience.) I would lay those out really clearly and emphasize that he needs active practice with the reality of living with a child, and some more work on his neatness concerns, so that he can go into this understanding what will be required of him, and for you to be able to consider the changes ahead as a unit.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:57 AM on September 2, 2015
Why don't you get a work-up done? I was the one with the baby fever in my relationship, and I was panicking because I am in my late 30s and OMG so old, you know? Therapist felt that my anxiety was hindering things and sent me for a work-up. It turns out there is a test they can do which explicitly tells you if time is running out or not. The answer in my case was that it is not and I scored well above the average for my age. The doctor was much more interested in what that number was than in my birthday age.
It also did turn out that there were some complications on his side of the equation, and we may need some interventions. But I can deal with those a lot more gracefully knowing that the window isn't going to close tomorrow.
posted by JoannaC at 11:58 AM on September 2, 2015
It also did turn out that there were some complications on his side of the equation, and we may need some interventions. But I can deal with those a lot more gracefully knowing that the window isn't going to close tomorrow.
posted by JoannaC at 11:58 AM on September 2, 2015
I don't think there's a right or wrong in this situation.
I am still not ready.
If you're not ready, then trying is wrong.
posted by French Fry at 11:58 AM on September 2, 2015
I am still not ready.
If you're not ready, then trying is wrong.
posted by French Fry at 11:58 AM on September 2, 2015
The part where I empathize with him is that you guys had a plan together and now you're not following through at what may feel like to him the last minute. I suffered that over and over again with my partner (between miscarriages) and it was pretty much the worst time of my adult life. I was much older than you are now - I spent a lot of time feeling hurt, angry and betrayed.
Here are a few random observations from my anecdata:
It's easy to overvalue or misunderstand what 'readiness' feels like. Some people who are ready will never feel ready. Some people who feel ready are not ready. Readiness and eagerness are not the same thing. Eagerness and certainty are not necessarily requirements for making this - or frankly any - big life change. That doesn't mean you're ready, it sounds like you are not ready, but it's not necessarily unrealistic for your partner to get frustrated if you are waiting for some kind of angelic choir to make things clear.
I think you need to articulate to yourself and to your partner what you want to be doing with yourself. Are there actual things you want to do before having a family? There's no reason NOT to wait another year or even a few before starting a family (really, you're still well under 35, I wouldn't worry too much about age-related fertility issues yet). What is not fair to him is to say "yes, I want to wait a year and then we'll do it" and then end up where you are yet again, a year later. Certainly you can't guarantee that you'll be ready in a calendar year or in two calendar years, but I think if you don't envision how this will change, you might need to tell him that as well, and decide what that means. This was the very worst part for me of this ongoing conversation, coming back to the same place time and again. I was angry that he didn't want to be the bad guy but was content keeping me/us in limbo. If you think you may not ever be ready, you have to own that, to yourself and to your partner, and give him an opportunity to decide what that means.
Couples therapy was useless for us, actually, probably because our counselor was kind of a dickhead. Individual therapy for my uncertain partner was much better.
posted by vunder at 12:00 PM on September 2, 2015
Here are a few random observations from my anecdata:
It's easy to overvalue or misunderstand what 'readiness' feels like. Some people who are ready will never feel ready. Some people who feel ready are not ready. Readiness and eagerness are not the same thing. Eagerness and certainty are not necessarily requirements for making this - or frankly any - big life change. That doesn't mean you're ready, it sounds like you are not ready, but it's not necessarily unrealistic for your partner to get frustrated if you are waiting for some kind of angelic choir to make things clear.
I think you need to articulate to yourself and to your partner what you want to be doing with yourself. Are there actual things you want to do before having a family? There's no reason NOT to wait another year or even a few before starting a family (really, you're still well under 35, I wouldn't worry too much about age-related fertility issues yet). What is not fair to him is to say "yes, I want to wait a year and then we'll do it" and then end up where you are yet again, a year later. Certainly you can't guarantee that you'll be ready in a calendar year or in two calendar years, but I think if you don't envision how this will change, you might need to tell him that as well, and decide what that means. This was the very worst part for me of this ongoing conversation, coming back to the same place time and again. I was angry that he didn't want to be the bad guy but was content keeping me/us in limbo. If you think you may not ever be ready, you have to own that, to yourself and to your partner, and give him an opportunity to decide what that means.
Couples therapy was useless for us, actually, probably because our counselor was kind of a dickhead. Individual therapy for my uncertain partner was much better.
posted by vunder at 12:00 PM on September 2, 2015
One more thing to add. When I was stuck in my several-years-of-agonizing phase over having kids, one of the most helpful things I read (maybe even on metafilter?) was that it was helpful to look at how you approach big decisions and big changes in other areas of your life, and to interpret your reservations or hopes through that lens.
I have always been hesitant to do anything risky--it probably took a year of talking about it before my partner and I booked a trip to Peru, despite having plenty of PTO and money to do so--and tend to stay comfortably ensconced in my routine if given the choice. I find something I like on a restaurant menu and order that every time I go back, because I'd rather go with the sure thing I know makes me happy rather than try something new. However, every time I've pushed myself out of my comfort zone and done something adventurous (like go to Peru! or take up road biking!), I am so glad I did it and feel like it made me a better, happier person. Altogether, that helped me see my lack of enthusiasm about getting pregnant as being more about fear of the unknown when weighed against my current contentment, versus not wanting kids. I decided if I was 70% sure I wanted kids, that was about as good as it was going to get *for me*, and indeed it was. For someone else, it might make sense for them to need to feel 100% about having kids before they made the jump.
If you don't tend to dither on major decisions, if you're usually decisive and happy with your decisions, I'd give serious weight to that little voice saying "but I love my life!" If instead you usually hesitate and have to be prodded into doing things that you (later) are so happy you did, it might be worth trying to be a bit more intellectual/brain about this decision and less emotional/heart.
posted by iminurmefi at 12:01 PM on September 2, 2015
I have always been hesitant to do anything risky--it probably took a year of talking about it before my partner and I booked a trip to Peru, despite having plenty of PTO and money to do so--and tend to stay comfortably ensconced in my routine if given the choice. I find something I like on a restaurant menu and order that every time I go back, because I'd rather go with the sure thing I know makes me happy rather than try something new. However, every time I've pushed myself out of my comfort zone and done something adventurous (like go to Peru! or take up road biking!), I am so glad I did it and feel like it made me a better, happier person. Altogether, that helped me see my lack of enthusiasm about getting pregnant as being more about fear of the unknown when weighed against my current contentment, versus not wanting kids. I decided if I was 70% sure I wanted kids, that was about as good as it was going to get *for me*, and indeed it was. For someone else, it might make sense for them to need to feel 100% about having kids before they made the jump.
If you don't tend to dither on major decisions, if you're usually decisive and happy with your decisions, I'd give serious weight to that little voice saying "but I love my life!" If instead you usually hesitate and have to be prodded into doing things that you (later) are so happy you did, it might be worth trying to be a bit more intellectual/brain about this decision and less emotional/heart.
posted by iminurmefi at 12:01 PM on September 2, 2015
Not dismissing the advice you'll get here, but what if you sent this question as you've written it to your husband? You did a good job of laying out your feelings and thoughts. The next logical step is for him to do the same and to process and discuss them, either as a couple or with the aid of a 3rd party.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:01 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by Wretch729 at 12:01 PM on September 2, 2015
Have you discussed childcare?
I'm not sure if I'm reading into things, but implied in the way you write the question is your expectation that you'll be doing most of the baby-related work. Can you break this down with your husband? Discuss how you're going to cover the 24/7 needs of this helpless little thing? I think if you both were on the same page with that aspect, you would either feel more ready or he could better isolate the reasons for not doing it now.
posted by tinymegalo at 12:04 PM on September 2, 2015
I'm not sure if I'm reading into things, but implied in the way you write the question is your expectation that you'll be doing most of the baby-related work. Can you break this down with your husband? Discuss how you're going to cover the 24/7 needs of this helpless little thing? I think if you both were on the same page with that aspect, you would either feel more ready or he could better isolate the reasons for not doing it now.
posted by tinymegalo at 12:04 PM on September 2, 2015
You should absolutely not have a baby you do not feel ready for. Not at all. (I had a hellish pregnancy, and the fact that I wanted and chose to be pregnant is I think one of the main things that mentally got me through it.)
However, I do not think your husband is wrong to be upset. And, honestly, you don't come across here as torn between your desire for kids and your feeling that you're not ready - you come across like you're torn between your husband's desire for kids and your feeling that you're not ready. In that situation, I suspect his worries about "it's now or never!" from a fertility perspective may be masking his worries that you might just not actually want this.
I feel like you owe it to both him and yourself to have a period of serious thinking and discussion, with a counsellor to help you both out if necessary, about what feeling ready would look like for you and what you need in order to get there. And if the answer is that you just don't know if you ever will - then that is okay, but you need to know and to own that even if it means the end of your marriage, for both your sakes.
posted by Catseye at 12:05 PM on September 2, 2015
However, I do not think your husband is wrong to be upset. And, honestly, you don't come across here as torn between your desire for kids and your feeling that you're not ready - you come across like you're torn between your husband's desire for kids and your feeling that you're not ready. In that situation, I suspect his worries about "it's now or never!" from a fertility perspective may be masking his worries that you might just not actually want this.
I feel like you owe it to both him and yourself to have a period of serious thinking and discussion, with a counsellor to help you both out if necessary, about what feeling ready would look like for you and what you need in order to get there. And if the answer is that you just don't know if you ever will - then that is okay, but you need to know and to own that even if it means the end of your marriage, for both your sakes.
posted by Catseye at 12:05 PM on September 2, 2015
I agree it sounds like counseling is a good next step for you. But something to keep in mind:
We waited to start trying until the timing was perfect and my age was right.
It turned out that one of us has sub-optimal fertility.
We're now well past the age at which either of us wanted to have kids and we still don't have one. We're just finishing up IVF cycle #1, after a lot of time wasted on other interventions. I really wish we had started earlier.
posted by sock puppet du jour at 12:06 PM on September 2, 2015
We waited to start trying until the timing was perfect and my age was right.
It turned out that one of us has sub-optimal fertility.
We're now well past the age at which either of us wanted to have kids and we still don't have one. We're just finishing up IVF cycle #1, after a lot of time wasted on other interventions. I really wish we had started earlier.
posted by sock puppet du jour at 12:06 PM on September 2, 2015
I wouldn't have children right now with the man you describe. I can see why you are cautious.
Oh YES, does he need to be in counseling with you! EVERYTHING you cited about how babies are demanding on a marriage and how much your life changes and finances and especially that at 32 your clock is not really ticking (thanks media!) is all true in my experience.
Source: happily married, first child at 40. yes, it changed the terrain of my marriage considerably, we're great now, but there were changes. my husband was also very enthusiastic about being a father, less enthusiastic that he was required to be an adult and a parent who could no longer through all of the extra emotional labor onto me, a person who was just about keeping up with him and a baby and our business. YMMV.
posted by jbenben at 12:08 PM on September 2, 2015
Oh YES, does he need to be in counseling with you! EVERYTHING you cited about how babies are demanding on a marriage and how much your life changes and finances and especially that at 32 your clock is not really ticking (thanks media!) is all true in my experience.
Source: happily married, first child at 40. yes, it changed the terrain of my marriage considerably, we're great now, but there were changes. my husband was also very enthusiastic about being a father, less enthusiastic that he was required to be an adult and a parent who could no longer through all of the extra emotional labor onto me, a person who was just about keeping up with him and a baby and our business. YMMV.
posted by jbenben at 12:08 PM on September 2, 2015
There's a lot to cover in your post, and others are covering some important ground very well. Two things stood out to me.
First, I wouldn't be concerned that he shows no current interest in babies or kids. I didn't before I became a father. Now, that I am, I'm much more attuned to children and like them, both mine and others'.
It does concern me how rigid you portray him as, however. For example, with a baby or toddler, neither you nor he will be able to exercise 4 times a week. There will be a lot of trade-offs and sacrifices. The mess and clutter will be out of control in his mind. Those adjustments sound as if it might be very difficult for him (even more so than for most people) and could cause a lot of tension in your marriage if you have a child.
posted by Leontine at 12:09 PM on September 2, 2015
First, I wouldn't be concerned that he shows no current interest in babies or kids. I didn't before I became a father. Now, that I am, I'm much more attuned to children and like them, both mine and others'.
It does concern me how rigid you portray him as, however. For example, with a baby or toddler, neither you nor he will be able to exercise 4 times a week. There will be a lot of trade-offs and sacrifices. The mess and clutter will be out of control in his mind. Those adjustments sound as if it might be very difficult for him (even more so than for most people) and could cause a lot of tension in your marriage if you have a child.
posted by Leontine at 12:09 PM on September 2, 2015
I think that when one person is not ready, especially when that person is going to be the one growing and carrying the baby, the default should be to wait.
I think this is right on. However, you might also want to get couple's counseling. If he is in need of a biological child ASAP, he should think about moving on, rather than forcing someone into motherhood who doesn't want it right now. There's no shame in that, especially for a couple that has been together since they were practically children.
I mean, what would he do if you couldn't have children? Lots of women can't.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:09 PM on September 2, 2015
I think this is right on. However, you might also want to get couple's counseling. If he is in need of a biological child ASAP, he should think about moving on, rather than forcing someone into motherhood who doesn't want it right now. There's no shame in that, especially for a couple that has been together since they were practically children.
I mean, what would he do if you couldn't have children? Lots of women can't.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:09 PM on September 2, 2015
My friend and her husband had a similar split opinion- she was relatively indifferent and he really wanted them. They negotiated that he would take full paternity leave and be the parent to cut back on work hours. (Then the baby actually came, he went through job changes, she bonded very strongly, and most of their decisions went out the window.)
All to say that if he feels that strongly, then he should be prepared to accept as many of the associated tasks as he, as the non-childbearing partner, can. Even that will not come close to what you'll be going through, but it may help.
Adoption is no joke, but if you're concerned about the pregnancy part of it, it may also be something to look into.
No matter what you negotiate, I would not start trying until you're fully and completely on board. It could take a long time to happen or it could happen that month.
posted by oryelle at 12:10 PM on September 2, 2015
All to say that if he feels that strongly, then he should be prepared to accept as many of the associated tasks as he, as the non-childbearing partner, can. Even that will not come close to what you'll be going through, but it may help.
Adoption is no joke, but if you're concerned about the pregnancy part of it, it may also be something to look into.
No matter what you negotiate, I would not start trying until you're fully and completely on board. It could take a long time to happen or it could happen that month.
posted by oryelle at 12:10 PM on September 2, 2015
If you were me, I would be saying to my partner "you want children but have never spent much time with one or much time doing child care; part of our pre-child planning is for you to do this". One of the ways I knew that I was not a child-haver was the fact that I just....actively hate and am stressed by being responsible for small children for long stretches, and I learned this via babysitting. Lots of my friends have kids, and in general, they all had specific "babies, I love babies! I love their little fists! I love their googly eyes!" feelings going in.
The things that worry me most about your question are the fact that your partner has no experience with/interest in small children and the fact that your partner is very fussy about fitness. Honestly, I see that as a recipe for his disappointment, anger and ultimately divorce after having a kid turns out not to be super fun and your body turns out not to be what it was pre-pregnancy. I would want to see a lot of counseling and a lot of babysitting from him before I went ahead and did anything life-altering.
posted by Frowner at 12:16 PM on September 2, 2015
The things that worry me most about your question are the fact that your partner has no experience with/interest in small children and the fact that your partner is very fussy about fitness. Honestly, I see that as a recipe for his disappointment, anger and ultimately divorce after having a kid turns out not to be super fun and your body turns out not to be what it was pre-pregnancy. I would want to see a lot of counseling and a lot of babysitting from him before I went ahead and did anything life-altering.
posted by Frowner at 12:16 PM on September 2, 2015
Interestingly, it sounds like your husband is not really ready for parenthood, yet. Not the other way around, even though that's how he's spinning it....
Catseye: "... you come across like you're torn between your husband's desire for kids and your feeling that you're not ready. In that situation, I suspect his worries about "it's now or never!" from a fertility perspective may be masking his worries that you might just not actually want this."
coupled with...
OP: "He is also very rigid about certain things, and gets stressed if there is a little bit of clutter in our apartment (if I hang my purse on the chair when I get home, he will pick it up and move it to the bedroom where it can't be seen, even if no one is coming over), if we don't have a huge money cushion in our budget each month (we are putting away about $5000 in savings every month, and he still stresses about money sometimes), if we are not exercising at least 3-4 times a week (he values fitness very much, not just for himself but for me too, in a way that sometimes makes me worried about my postpartum body). We used to get into fights over these things. He has been trying to keep his neuroses from affecting me so much, since he knows I am concerned about his control freak tendencies and his ability to go with the flow when we have kids, and has done a very good job of it. But I am afraid that with the massive stress of a new baby he will not be able to help himself."
OP, I'm betting if your husband showed a lot more self-understanding about how his way of operating within your two-person family is entirely incompatible with the stresses of adding children to the mix, you would have less concerns.
Forgive me if I'm reading too much into things, but that jumped out at me. It sounds like your lifestyle is enjoyable as it is with just the two of you, but that your husband hasn't done his homework or self-work concerning what all of this change he thinks he wants really means. So when the house is messy, or the savings account gets tapped for an emergency, or maybe you don't bounce back from being pregnant like Gisele Bundchen, you'll be taking the blame from him.
I would not accept lip-service on these points either from a man that opts out of social engagements involving other people's children, friends he used to love to hang out with. He seems like he's more into the idea than the reality of parenting.
posted by jbenben at 12:22 PM on September 2, 2015
Catseye: "... you come across like you're torn between your husband's desire for kids and your feeling that you're not ready. In that situation, I suspect his worries about "it's now or never!" from a fertility perspective may be masking his worries that you might just not actually want this."
coupled with...
OP: "He is also very rigid about certain things, and gets stressed if there is a little bit of clutter in our apartment (if I hang my purse on the chair when I get home, he will pick it up and move it to the bedroom where it can't be seen, even if no one is coming over), if we don't have a huge money cushion in our budget each month (we are putting away about $5000 in savings every month, and he still stresses about money sometimes), if we are not exercising at least 3-4 times a week (he values fitness very much, not just for himself but for me too, in a way that sometimes makes me worried about my postpartum body). We used to get into fights over these things. He has been trying to keep his neuroses from affecting me so much, since he knows I am concerned about his control freak tendencies and his ability to go with the flow when we have kids, and has done a very good job of it. But I am afraid that with the massive stress of a new baby he will not be able to help himself."
OP, I'm betting if your husband showed a lot more self-understanding about how his way of operating within your two-person family is entirely incompatible with the stresses of adding children to the mix, you would have less concerns.
Forgive me if I'm reading too much into things, but that jumped out at me. It sounds like your lifestyle is enjoyable as it is with just the two of you, but that your husband hasn't done his homework or self-work concerning what all of this change he thinks he wants really means. So when the house is messy, or the savings account gets tapped for an emergency, or maybe you don't bounce back from being pregnant like Gisele Bundchen, you'll be taking the blame from him.
I would not accept lip-service on these points either from a man that opts out of social engagements involving other people's children, friends he used to love to hang out with. He seems like he's more into the idea than the reality of parenting.
posted by jbenben at 12:22 PM on September 2, 2015
I'm 31 and my husband and I, despite being married for 7 years, have not even started trying to have kids. We've talked about it, but up until recently the time was not right, logistically or emotionally. I dunno, some of my friends who had kids said, "There's no right time! You'll never feel ready!" BUT now that I DO feel ready, I think that my friends are wrong.
I'm sure if we had kids before this point, everything would have worked out OK, but now we've reached a point where we're financially secure and more importantly, secure in the knowledge that we are #1 in each other's lives. It sounds like you are at the first criteria but haven't yet done what you need to get to the second (for us, it took a stressful and life-threatening illness followed by a cross-country move).
posted by muddgirl at 12:23 PM on September 2, 2015
I'm sure if we had kids before this point, everything would have worked out OK, but now we've reached a point where we're financially secure and more importantly, secure in the knowledge that we are #1 in each other's lives. It sounds like you are at the first criteria but haven't yet done what you need to get to the second (for us, it took a stressful and life-threatening illness followed by a cross-country move).
posted by muddgirl at 12:23 PM on September 2, 2015
I don't wish to minimize the anguish you're experiencing here, but the one thought I had was born out of sheer cussedness, and probably was tripped by your stated reservations about his ability to parent. Instead of leaving your purse hanging on the chair, upend the contents all over the floor, and then grab a banana, two candles and a stapler and add them to the mix. Refuse to put any of it away for no particular reason.
His reaction to that will be 1) potentially entertaining, and 2) possibly illustrative for him.
I am not entirely serious here. Mostly.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 12:24 PM on September 2, 2015
His reaction to that will be 1) potentially entertaining, and 2) possibly illustrative for him.
I am not entirely serious here. Mostly.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 12:24 PM on September 2, 2015
I'm about your age and had a baby-related freak-out recently. I understand your husband's frustration regarding your "waffling" but part of me thinks that we don't owe our partners consistency as much as we owe them honesty. It's not ideal that your ideas on starting a family have changed over time but if that's wrong, it would be more wrong to know that and push you towards becoming a mother when you're not ready. That was something I was very sensitive to when talking to my husband - I know that having a child will completely change our lives and I wouldn't consider going that route unless I felt confident that he was on board. I feel like it's kind of disrespectful that he doesn't feel the same way, especially since childbearing will have a significantly bigger impact on your body and life than his. And I'm concerned about my postpartum body (if and when I get pregnant) and my husband isn't a control freak who thinks we should work out 3-4 times a week.
I think it would be helpful for you both to read about pregnancy and parenthood. That might make you feel more like he knows what he's getting into and you both know more about the mechanics involved. Have you both had physicals? Are you up to date on your gynecological exams? I caught up when I was thinking about getting started and something about feeling like I was laying the groundwork made me feel less like a helpless hostage to my uterus and more like we're playing on the same team. You can also start taking pre-natal vitamins - there's no harm in taking them now and again, it just makes me feel like I'm making progress towards this thing. It's a very physical literal thing that says, I am getting ready to get pregnant, and if your husband sees them in the bathroom, maybe he'll cut you some slack. And I got gummy ones, which are probably awful for you somehow but I like them so whatever. Maybe don't get the ones that are enormous and difficult to swallow because ugh.
Also, just throwing this out there - what if you split the difference and talk about starting to try to get pregnant in six months? Not a ton of time in the grand scheme of things but if that compromise makes both of you feel better, game on. Either way, good luck - I know this is stressful. I believe that to the extent possible, parenthood should be opt-in and I know that if you wait for The Right Time, you'll be waiting forever but at the same time, if this doesn't feel like The Right Time, you don't have to rush.
posted by kat518 at 12:24 PM on September 2, 2015
I think it would be helpful for you both to read about pregnancy and parenthood. That might make you feel more like he knows what he's getting into and you both know more about the mechanics involved. Have you both had physicals? Are you up to date on your gynecological exams? I caught up when I was thinking about getting started and something about feeling like I was laying the groundwork made me feel less like a helpless hostage to my uterus and more like we're playing on the same team. You can also start taking pre-natal vitamins - there's no harm in taking them now and again, it just makes me feel like I'm making progress towards this thing. It's a very physical literal thing that says, I am getting ready to get pregnant, and if your husband sees them in the bathroom, maybe he'll cut you some slack. And I got gummy ones, which are probably awful for you somehow but I like them so whatever. Maybe don't get the ones that are enormous and difficult to swallow because ugh.
Also, just throwing this out there - what if you split the difference and talk about starting to try to get pregnant in six months? Not a ton of time in the grand scheme of things but if that compromise makes both of you feel better, game on. Either way, good luck - I know this is stressful. I believe that to the extent possible, parenthood should be opt-in and I know that if you wait for The Right Time, you'll be waiting forever but at the same time, if this doesn't feel like The Right Time, you don't have to rush.
posted by kat518 at 12:24 PM on September 2, 2015
While you explore counseling, both of you should get fertility testing, so that you don't have to focus on the medical worries during counseling sessions.
posted by jbenben at 12:25 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by jbenben at 12:25 PM on September 2, 2015
Agree that you guys should probably see a counselor, or if not a counselor at least find some way to talk about this stuff.
Because you might *never* feel ready. I am 37, female, childless, financially stable, and in a great relationship and you would think I would be super gung ho to have a kid, but I'm actually way less interested in having kids now than I was 5 years ago.
That said, I'm still sufficiently on the fence that if it was really important to my partner to have kids, we would try. But my point is there's no guarantee you're going to want kids more in the future than you do right now.
posted by mskyle at 12:30 PM on September 2, 2015
Because you might *never* feel ready. I am 37, female, childless, financially stable, and in a great relationship and you would think I would be super gung ho to have a kid, but I'm actually way less interested in having kids now than I was 5 years ago.
That said, I'm still sufficiently on the fence that if it was really important to my partner to have kids, we would try. But my point is there's no guarantee you're going to want kids more in the future than you do right now.
posted by mskyle at 12:30 PM on September 2, 2015
This topic is so fraught, and I disagree with our focusing on a few sentences about your husband and determining his readiness to parent by them.
All I can contribute is the caveat that if there is a chance in 12 months that you're going to say, "you know what? I don't want kids at all," please let him know sooner rather than later. I was on his side of the "one more year" talk for a few years in my 20s/30s. Even a fitness freak/neat freak/frugal man deserves honesty.
posted by kimberussell at 12:31 PM on September 2, 2015
All I can contribute is the caveat that if there is a chance in 12 months that you're going to say, "you know what? I don't want kids at all," please let him know sooner rather than later. I was on his side of the "one more year" talk for a few years in my 20s/30s. Even a fitness freak/neat freak/frugal man deserves honesty.
posted by kimberussell at 12:31 PM on September 2, 2015
You write that you worry he is thinking of leaving you. If you do decide that kids are not in the very near future and he does decide that kids are very much in his desired near future, then it is OK to let him go. Different future plans is a completely valid reason for a relationship to change. People change as they grow older.
posted by jillithd at 12:39 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by jillithd at 12:39 PM on September 2, 2015
"I asked for one more summer to have my body to myself and to come to terms with the impending changes in our lives.
We were supposed to start trying next week. I am still not ready."
I think your husband is having a bad reaction with you asking for another year is because you asked for just one more year last year and you changed your mind. If I was your husband, I would have a hard time trusting that this time, your really, really, really do mean one more year. In other words, I would be afraid that you will be asking for one more year next year too.
And be brutally honest with yourself...do you really know with absolute 100% certainty that you will be ready in a year? No judgments, but can you really know that now?
posted by murrey at 12:46 PM on September 2, 2015
We were supposed to start trying next week. I am still not ready."
I think your husband is having a bad reaction with you asking for another year is because you asked for just one more year last year and you changed your mind. If I was your husband, I would have a hard time trusting that this time, your really, really, really do mean one more year. In other words, I would be afraid that you will be asking for one more year next year too.
And be brutally honest with yourself...do you really know with absolute 100% certainty that you will be ready in a year? No judgments, but can you really know that now?
posted by murrey at 12:46 PM on September 2, 2015
I would not try under these circumstances. Please listen to your gut.
Even with the very best, most wonderful and progressive-minded partner who takes a large share of the responsibility when it comes to childcare, domestic duties, and emotional labor, it's impossible to overstate how much of the burden of pregnancy, childbirth, and childcare falls on the woman. And, that's even the case if the pregnancy and birth are ideal. A lot of times, they're not. Some of this is unavoidable, but a lot of it isn't. You have to think of your career and whether this will put you on the mommy-track. Is your husband expecting that he won't have to make career sacrifices (leaving early, being the on-call parent for daycare/school, taking paternity leave, doing nighttime infant duty without quarrel, managing child's social life, etc)? Does he already do his fair share around the house? Does he take time to do emotional labor and be attentive to your needs? It sounds like he trends a bit more toward it's his way or the highway (his demands WRT fitness/body appearance, household clutter, and general control-freakiness). This part of his personality will likely get much worse when he's feeling the very real stress of having a child.
This may not be relevant to you, but here's an anecdote: a friend of mine who had a high-powered career decided to have a child with her husband as he was very, very, very eager. They agreed upon a very equal distribution of labor and had a child. As it went, his agreement to do his share fell by the wayside. He made no career sacrifices, didn't participate much in parenting (though everyone congratulated him on being a great Dad since the bar for a father's participation in childrearing is so very low), and left my friend to do the far majority of the kid-raising and management. It stressed her out terribly, made her feel isolated, impacted her career and also impacted her marriage in that she couldn't understand how her husband could go back on such serious promises and also watch her drown in the pressure cooker and do nothing meaningful to help. Kidlet grew into Kindergarten age and was more independent and friend finally came up for a little bit of air, only to be met by husband who desperately wanted another child "before it was too late." Friend told him she'd only consider it if he took full responsibility for 50% of kid responsibilities for 6 months. He lasted less than half that time. Their child is a only child. She still does 90% of the kid-related labor.
Is your husband just accusing you of being wishy-washy or is he taking concrete steps to show you that he understands what parenting realistically will take and demonstrating, through action, that he's ready and planning to make sacrifices? I would not have a child with someone who cares not to witness what it takes to care for a child and also has only abstract, romantic ideas about parenthood.
posted by quince at 12:57 PM on September 2, 2015
Even with the very best, most wonderful and progressive-minded partner who takes a large share of the responsibility when it comes to childcare, domestic duties, and emotional labor, it's impossible to overstate how much of the burden of pregnancy, childbirth, and childcare falls on the woman. And, that's even the case if the pregnancy and birth are ideal. A lot of times, they're not. Some of this is unavoidable, but a lot of it isn't. You have to think of your career and whether this will put you on the mommy-track. Is your husband expecting that he won't have to make career sacrifices (leaving early, being the on-call parent for daycare/school, taking paternity leave, doing nighttime infant duty without quarrel, managing child's social life, etc)? Does he already do his fair share around the house? Does he take time to do emotional labor and be attentive to your needs? It sounds like he trends a bit more toward it's his way or the highway (his demands WRT fitness/body appearance, household clutter, and general control-freakiness). This part of his personality will likely get much worse when he's feeling the very real stress of having a child.
This may not be relevant to you, but here's an anecdote: a friend of mine who had a high-powered career decided to have a child with her husband as he was very, very, very eager. They agreed upon a very equal distribution of labor and had a child. As it went, his agreement to do his share fell by the wayside. He made no career sacrifices, didn't participate much in parenting (though everyone congratulated him on being a great Dad since the bar for a father's participation in childrearing is so very low), and left my friend to do the far majority of the kid-raising and management. It stressed her out terribly, made her feel isolated, impacted her career and also impacted her marriage in that she couldn't understand how her husband could go back on such serious promises and also watch her drown in the pressure cooker and do nothing meaningful to help. Kidlet grew into Kindergarten age and was more independent and friend finally came up for a little bit of air, only to be met by husband who desperately wanted another child "before it was too late." Friend told him she'd only consider it if he took full responsibility for 50% of kid responsibilities for 6 months. He lasted less than half that time. Their child is a only child. She still does 90% of the kid-related labor.
Is your husband just accusing you of being wishy-washy or is he taking concrete steps to show you that he understands what parenting realistically will take and demonstrating, through action, that he's ready and planning to make sacrifices? I would not have a child with someone who cares not to witness what it takes to care for a child and also has only abstract, romantic ideas about parenthood.
posted by quince at 12:57 PM on September 2, 2015
I also feel that he has little understanding of the practical demands of raising children, and that his idea of what it means to be a father is very much in the abstract.
Almost everything I would say has been said above, so I'll just add this one little idea: Perhaps get one of those baby dolls like I hear some high schools use these days, ones that cry and need all the care of real babies. (Like this or this.) Let your husband be the point person for baby-care and see how that goes.
posted by orchidfox at 1:09 PM on September 2, 2015
Almost everything I would say has been said above, so I'll just add this one little idea: Perhaps get one of those baby dolls like I hear some high schools use these days, ones that cry and need all the care of real babies. (Like this or this.) Let your husband be the point person for baby-care and see how that goes.
posted by orchidfox at 1:09 PM on September 2, 2015
I think other Mefites have made a ton of valuable points above. But I wanted to add my two cents since I can really empathize with a lot of what you wrote. I pretty much don't want kids, and my partner probably does. I read a question here once that I wish I could find for you but I haven't had any luck searching just now. Basically, the asker was wondering if she could be like the stereotypical dad in her relationship, while her male partner handled more of the day-to-day looking after the baby.
I thought to myself, yes, that's what I want! If I could have a baby and my partner could take on most of the childcare (as he would probably like to do), then that would be great!
But as a wise commenter in the thread pointed out, you never know what will happen. You could make promises with your husband that he'll do most of the childcare, and something could change--you could break up, he could be physically unable to do it, etc, etc--and you would become 100% responsible. That really resonated with me: As things stand right now, if I had a child tomorrow, and my partner disappeared the next day, I don't think I would be able to wholeheartedly accept having to be the sole parent. Would you be ready to do that? It sounds like you might not be.
Which is all by way of saying, I think you should listen to your feeling that you're not ready. Having a baby for someone else's reasons, no matter how well intentioned you are, can go badly so many more ways than it can go well.
I really hope things work out for you!
posted by ferret branca at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2015
I thought to myself, yes, that's what I want! If I could have a baby and my partner could take on most of the childcare (as he would probably like to do), then that would be great!
But as a wise commenter in the thread pointed out, you never know what will happen. You could make promises with your husband that he'll do most of the childcare, and something could change--you could break up, he could be physically unable to do it, etc, etc--and you would become 100% responsible. That really resonated with me: As things stand right now, if I had a child tomorrow, and my partner disappeared the next day, I don't think I would be able to wholeheartedly accept having to be the sole parent. Would you be ready to do that? It sounds like you might not be.
Which is all by way of saying, I think you should listen to your feeling that you're not ready. Having a baby for someone else's reasons, no matter how well intentioned you are, can go badly so many more ways than it can go well.
I really hope things work out for you!
posted by ferret branca at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2015
Pretty sure this is the question that ferret branca is referring to: "Can't I be the 'dad'?"
posted by kinddieserzeit at 1:17 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by kinddieserzeit at 1:17 PM on September 2, 2015
Also great advice I once received:
"You're not ready to parent until you're ready to be a single parent... because statistically it's likely"
posted by French Fry at 1:19 PM on September 2, 2015
"You're not ready to parent until you're ready to be a single parent... because statistically it's likely"
posted by French Fry at 1:19 PM on September 2, 2015
(Oy, thanks so much, kinddieserzeit! I thought I searched the terms pretty thoroughly but apparently not.)
posted by ferret branca at 1:19 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by ferret branca at 1:19 PM on September 2, 2015
I think that when one person is not ready...the default should be to wait.
Oh, yes -- except, I think part of "the default" would also have to include offering the option to separate.
From here it really reads like you have no way of being sure that you will be ready, ever. The quibbles about his neatness, fitness, et cetera? Those are not going to go away. You mention having read about people living great childless lives. You are in love with the way your life is now. You really have pretty much nothing good to say about the idea of having a kid.
It sounds a bit like you are trying to stay open to the idea and trying to tell yourself you will be able to talk yourself into this, but, to an internet stranger, it looks like you just straight-up do not particularly want a life with children. It also sounds like you've been busy telling yourself all the ways in which your partner would be a lousy parent.
Pretend you've told him not that you want to wait, but that the option is wholly off the table, and you're very sorry, and he's free to leave the relationship with no rancour on your end. How do you feel? Relieved that the pressure is off, or like you've made a terrible mistake?
posted by kmennie at 1:28 PM on September 2, 2015
Oh, yes -- except, I think part of "the default" would also have to include offering the option to separate.
From here it really reads like you have no way of being sure that you will be ready, ever. The quibbles about his neatness, fitness, et cetera? Those are not going to go away. You mention having read about people living great childless lives. You are in love with the way your life is now. You really have pretty much nothing good to say about the idea of having a kid.
It sounds a bit like you are trying to stay open to the idea and trying to tell yourself you will be able to talk yourself into this, but, to an internet stranger, it looks like you just straight-up do not particularly want a life with children. It also sounds like you've been busy telling yourself all the ways in which your partner would be a lousy parent.
Pretend you've told him not that you want to wait, but that the option is wholly off the table, and you're very sorry, and he's free to leave the relationship with no rancour on your end. How do you feel? Relieved that the pressure is off, or like you've made a terrible mistake?
posted by kmennie at 1:28 PM on September 2, 2015
It's not just the Roman church in days of yore but even 21st century scientists who say fertility declines with age. Older women have lower conception rates and higher miscarriage rates. If you are truly concerned about this issue, your OB/GYN could tell you more. At 32, you're not in a bad place (my younger child was conceived when my wife was 33), but fertility is not going to improve with age.
However, I have the impression that you don't want to have children. For example, you refer to the desire to have children as "the baby bug" or "baby fever", which reads as dismissive. And, you did flake with "I'll wait a year...actually, I need one more year, for real this time", so it is small wonder that he has a problem trusting you. It is 100% your prerogative if you do not want to have children, but you should let your husband know so he can make a decision for himself. I don't think you have given him any reason to believe that things will be different in a year. Again, it is 100% your choice not to have children if you do not want, but if so, you've got to cut him loose.
FWIW, I am a father of two and I have about zero interest in other people's children, so I don't think this necessarily speaks to one's future fitness as a parent, or any lack of experience with babies/small children. It would be bizarre to think, "I babysat all through high school so I would be a fit parent" or force a spouse to care for other people's children as a condition to conceiving. I had to teach my wife how to change a diaper after I found out the hard way that she couldn't (Tanizaki Jr.'s meconium). Guess what? She's a fantastic mother.
posted by Tanizaki at 1:35 PM on September 2, 2015
However, I have the impression that you don't want to have children. For example, you refer to the desire to have children as "the baby bug" or "baby fever", which reads as dismissive. And, you did flake with "I'll wait a year...actually, I need one more year, for real this time", so it is small wonder that he has a problem trusting you. It is 100% your prerogative if you do not want to have children, but you should let your husband know so he can make a decision for himself. I don't think you have given him any reason to believe that things will be different in a year. Again, it is 100% your choice not to have children if you do not want, but if so, you've got to cut him loose.
FWIW, I am a father of two and I have about zero interest in other people's children, so I don't think this necessarily speaks to one's future fitness as a parent, or any lack of experience with babies/small children. It would be bizarre to think, "I babysat all through high school so I would be a fit parent" or force a spouse to care for other people's children as a condition to conceiving. I had to teach my wife how to change a diaper after I found out the hard way that she couldn't (Tanizaki Jr.'s meconium). Guess what? She's a fantastic mother.
posted by Tanizaki at 1:35 PM on September 2, 2015
I think you have understandable concerns and are very right that you need to be fully on-board. That said, I don't know that "I just need more time" is the right approach. It doesn't sound like you're waiting for new information to surface or for an event to occur; it sounds like you have fundamental reservations about the idea. What will cause you to either let go of those reservations or decide they mean that you simply don't want to have children?
I saw friends go through this. The reservations didn't go away with time. They didn't go away until the couple really confronted them. There were significant underlying fears (e.g., "what if I turn out as miserable as my mom?"). These did not surface until the person waiting pressed the issue and got them to discuss it in couples counseling. Then they were examined and resolved fairly easily ("I will do X, Y, and Z, and oh yeah, my mom and I are very different people.")
My personal opinion is that rather than "waiting longer," you two should begin an active process to explore your differences here and what you want your future to look like. I think the best approach to doing that would be to go to couples counseling together.
Couples counseling will be better than waiting, because most of these questions involve you both, such as your questions about how much childcare support he'll provide and whether he'll be able to handle the cost and mess. You won't suddenly know without having a discussion about it, but it's not fair to silently assume the worst either. Plenty of neat freaks have kids. In couples counseling, you can also share your concerns about what impact this will have on your career and other issues he may not be aware of, and discuss how the challenges of childrearing would be shared.
Good luck. I don't think you're at all off the mark in your realistic assessment of the challenges of having children. I just think you two need to be more proactive in examining whether, and if so, how, you two could make this work.
posted by salvia at 1:38 PM on September 2, 2015
I saw friends go through this. The reservations didn't go away with time. They didn't go away until the couple really confronted them. There were significant underlying fears (e.g., "what if I turn out as miserable as my mom?"). These did not surface until the person waiting pressed the issue and got them to discuss it in couples counseling. Then they were examined and resolved fairly easily ("I will do X, Y, and Z, and oh yeah, my mom and I are very different people.")
My personal opinion is that rather than "waiting longer," you two should begin an active process to explore your differences here and what you want your future to look like. I think the best approach to doing that would be to go to couples counseling together.
Couples counseling will be better than waiting, because most of these questions involve you both, such as your questions about how much childcare support he'll provide and whether he'll be able to handle the cost and mess. You won't suddenly know without having a discussion about it, but it's not fair to silently assume the worst either. Plenty of neat freaks have kids. In couples counseling, you can also share your concerns about what impact this will have on your career and other issues he may not be aware of, and discuss how the challenges of childrearing would be shared.
Good luck. I don't think you're at all off the mark in your realistic assessment of the challenges of having children. I just think you two need to be more proactive in examining whether, and if so, how, you two could make this work.
posted by salvia at 1:38 PM on September 2, 2015
I am sitting here holding back tears from reading these responses... you've hit on so many truths and fears, and I am so thankful for your experiences and resources.
I just wanted to pop in and make it clear that I very much do want children (because a few people seem to have lit upon that point), and that my clock is ticking in accordance with my fertility. I don't want to wait until it's too late either, but I don't believe we are anywhere near too late. I am basing that off of the medical literature I've read, but JoannaC's suggestion to get both of us checked out is fantastic.
I have always, always loved babies and children. Even when I was considering the possibility of not having my own children, I still wanted to have children in my life. I've babysat (not as much as I would like), tutored children from ages 6-12, and my best friend considers me to be her baby's godmother (neither of us are religious, but it's the best way we have to describe the relationship). I love that baby fiercely. When my husband and I went away for two weeks on holiday, I watched the baby videos my friend had sent me on my phone and pined for her. I would do anything for that kid, and that's what gives me hope that I will enjoy motherhood as much as I enjoy being with her. I know full well that it's not the same. But I do want to be a parent and I think I'm pretty well acquainted with what that entails. Just not right now.
My husband does earn more than me currently and ultimately has a much higher earning potential, so I will be "the mom." He does most of the housework (I work longer hours than him) but I do almost all of the emotional labor, and that is something that I worry about. This, and every concern I have about his neatfreakness, and his control issues, have been discussed at length between us. My husband promises that tidiness and the way my body looks won't be issues when the baby comes along. I promise that I will eventually be ready, I just need more time. We both mean what we say, and yet we both doubt that the other person really knows what they're saying.
And thank you to Emperor SnooKloze for making me laugh out loud amidst all the seriousness and sadness.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:43 PM on September 2, 2015
I just wanted to pop in and make it clear that I very much do want children (because a few people seem to have lit upon that point), and that my clock is ticking in accordance with my fertility. I don't want to wait until it's too late either, but I don't believe we are anywhere near too late. I am basing that off of the medical literature I've read, but JoannaC's suggestion to get both of us checked out is fantastic.
I have always, always loved babies and children. Even when I was considering the possibility of not having my own children, I still wanted to have children in my life. I've babysat (not as much as I would like), tutored children from ages 6-12, and my best friend considers me to be her baby's godmother (neither of us are religious, but it's the best way we have to describe the relationship). I love that baby fiercely. When my husband and I went away for two weeks on holiday, I watched the baby videos my friend had sent me on my phone and pined for her. I would do anything for that kid, and that's what gives me hope that I will enjoy motherhood as much as I enjoy being with her. I know full well that it's not the same. But I do want to be a parent and I think I'm pretty well acquainted with what that entails. Just not right now.
My husband does earn more than me currently and ultimately has a much higher earning potential, so I will be "the mom." He does most of the housework (I work longer hours than him) but I do almost all of the emotional labor, and that is something that I worry about. This, and every concern I have about his neatfreakness, and his control issues, have been discussed at length between us. My husband promises that tidiness and the way my body looks won't be issues when the baby comes along. I promise that I will eventually be ready, I just need more time. We both mean what we say, and yet we both doubt that the other person really knows what they're saying.
And thank you to Emperor SnooKloze for making me laugh out loud amidst all the seriousness and sadness.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:43 PM on September 2, 2015
Everything your husband thinks he knows about fertility is wrong. Tell him to read this article and calm down.
I brought up this same concern with my gynecologist (I'm 31 years old) and she was all "I'm so glad that article got published in The Atlantic! You'll be fine."
Maybe share this anecdote with your husband, too: I have a friend who didn't believe in marriage at 23 years old. Then she met a fella and a month later they were engaged. Then she didn't believe in having children. She went about the business of getting a PhD. This past year, she turned 35 and decided she wanted to have kids after all. They just welcomed a healthy baby boy.
posted by pinetree at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2015
I brought up this same concern with my gynecologist (I'm 31 years old) and she was all "I'm so glad that article got published in The Atlantic! You'll be fine."
Maybe share this anecdote with your husband, too: I have a friend who didn't believe in marriage at 23 years old. Then she met a fella and a month later they were engaged. Then she didn't believe in having children. She went about the business of getting a PhD. This past year, she turned 35 and decided she wanted to have kids after all. They just welcomed a healthy baby boy.
posted by pinetree at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2015
The healthy way to choose whether or not to add a baby to your life now is to approach the decision from a place of love, not fear, not anxiety, not a need for control, not worries about losing the other person.
"He thinks if we start trying next year [when you will both be 32.5], if we don't get pregnant right away we may be too late. He thinks we have waited long enough already, that we may be in a bad spot if we end up having fertility issues..."
Nope. His anxious feelings are not medical facts. The truth is, the vast majority of women your age, plus women approximately 5 to 8+ years older than you, will be pregnant after about 3-4 months of trying. (See this Recent Ask analyzing pregnancy stats).
That being said, maybe it will turn out you'll need loads of fertility interventions in order to conceive. Maybe you will regret the choice to keep waiting for now. Then again, maybe you will regret the choice to try before you're really ready, and end up with PPD and a nasty divorce 5 years hence. Who the hell knows? But I'm a betting person, and since the odds are very much in your favor, I would encourage you to be optimistic about your fertility, and take your sweet time with this decision. If you were say, over 41, my answer might be different. You, however, are still super young reproductively. Take your time.
Your husband seriously needs to show you with his actions that he can be more flexible and less neurotic in general, and 100% supportive of your emotional needs here.
posted by hush at 1:53 PM on September 2, 2015
"He thinks if we start trying next year [when you will both be 32.5], if we don't get pregnant right away we may be too late. He thinks we have waited long enough already, that we may be in a bad spot if we end up having fertility issues..."
Nope. His anxious feelings are not medical facts. The truth is, the vast majority of women your age, plus women approximately 5 to 8+ years older than you, will be pregnant after about 3-4 months of trying. (See this Recent Ask analyzing pregnancy stats).
That being said, maybe it will turn out you'll need loads of fertility interventions in order to conceive. Maybe you will regret the choice to keep waiting for now. Then again, maybe you will regret the choice to try before you're really ready, and end up with PPD and a nasty divorce 5 years hence. Who the hell knows? But I'm a betting person, and since the odds are very much in your favor, I would encourage you to be optimistic about your fertility, and take your sweet time with this decision. If you were say, over 41, my answer might be different. You, however, are still super young reproductively. Take your time.
Your husband seriously needs to show you with his actions that he can be more flexible and less neurotic in general, and 100% supportive of your emotional needs here.
posted by hush at 1:53 PM on September 2, 2015
Could it be that you want kids but just not with him? Or at least him as he is now? Truth be told, you're not going to get any younger and this situation won't resolve it self. I thinks it's time for a real heart to heart where you share your reservations with him and he shares his with you. His biological clock is just fine so clearly he's worried about yours. Can you get a test? Hell, a the rate you guys are saving you can afford to freeze eggs if you want. Perhaps that will calm him down. I understand why you're a bit scared but I also understand why he's upset. I think you need to tell him the real reason you're hesistant and go from there.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 1:54 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 1:54 PM on September 2, 2015
We tried (2 times! successfully!) when my wife was over the age of 35, and I have to tell you that it was an emotional roller coaster. It was not easy, and took a trip to an endocrinologist to sort out (while by North American standards my wife would have been considered slim, an endocrinologist stated that her age, combined with her BMI did affect fertility).
So in our experience, age did affect fertility. So it was like I said a roller coaster. But it all ended up well.
I was going to say that your age does affect your energy levels as a parent. While very few people in North America have kids in their early twenties anymore, by leaving things late means you don't have the same energy you would have had as a parent at an earlier age.
Still, the biggest issue seems to be whether or not you can trust your husband.
It doesn't sound like you're in a healthy relationship.
posted by Nevin at 1:58 PM on September 2, 2015
So in our experience, age did affect fertility. So it was like I said a roller coaster. But it all ended up well.
I was going to say that your age does affect your energy levels as a parent. While very few people in North America have kids in their early twenties anymore, by leaving things late means you don't have the same energy you would have had as a parent at an earlier age.
Still, the biggest issue seems to be whether or not you can trust your husband.
It doesn't sound like you're in a healthy relationship.
posted by Nevin at 1:58 PM on September 2, 2015
I could have written this 1.5 years ago. Same exact situation, at 33. I realized that I didn't want kids for the third year running after our agreed-upon deadline. I felt nothing but dread and guilt every time the deadline would arise. He asked me for a guarantee and I couldn't give it -- I loved my career, my lifestyle, everything I had spent my life building, and wasn't interested in setting aside. There was also the issue of my husband not being able to be emotionally supportive, which I really would have needed if I had been a reluctant mother (of two -- he always insisted on two.) We spent five months in couples therapy for these issues (whereas everything else in the relationship was good) and made little progress.
We're separated now, and it's been heartbreaking, but at the same time I do feel it is for the best for all involved. It took a lot of therapy (both on my own and with my husband) to help me realize that (for me) it was better to risk it and wait until I wanted a child, (which may possibly be never) than to have a kid I might have always secretly resented. There are no take-backs. And making my husband wait without guarantee for the thing he wanted more than anything wasn't fair either. I know several mothers who confided to me in secret that while they loved their child, they wouldn't do it over again if they'd had the choice. And I felt strongly that I would fall into that category. Ultimately, I broke my life and started over, rather than stay and become a parent just because I had been open to the idea in my 20's when we got engaged. It is so hard to know how you're going to feel in five years -- I gambled that I would want them, and I was wrong. I don't know if I'll want kids in 3 years or 5 or ever, but if that happens and I'm infertile, I'll adopt. You can only take your best guess -- being as honest with yourself as you can be -- and follow your gut.
posted by np312 at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015
We're separated now, and it's been heartbreaking, but at the same time I do feel it is for the best for all involved. It took a lot of therapy (both on my own and with my husband) to help me realize that (for me) it was better to risk it and wait until I wanted a child, (which may possibly be never) than to have a kid I might have always secretly resented. There are no take-backs. And making my husband wait without guarantee for the thing he wanted more than anything wasn't fair either. I know several mothers who confided to me in secret that while they loved their child, they wouldn't do it over again if they'd had the choice. And I felt strongly that I would fall into that category. Ultimately, I broke my life and started over, rather than stay and become a parent just because I had been open to the idea in my 20's when we got engaged. It is so hard to know how you're going to feel in five years -- I gambled that I would want them, and I was wrong. I don't know if I'll want kids in 3 years or 5 or ever, but if that happens and I'm infertile, I'll adopt. You can only take your best guess -- being as honest with yourself as you can be -- and follow your gut.
posted by np312 at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2015
My husband promises that tidiness and the way my body looks won't be issues when the baby comes along.
Then he should start by not mind untidiness now. :)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:05 PM on September 2, 2015
Then he should start by not mind untidiness now. :)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:05 PM on September 2, 2015
My parents were in pretty much your situation before I was conceived. Early 30s, together for a long time, my dad wanted kids, my mother wasn't ready. I think she was more ambivalent about having kids in general than you sound. Instead of doing the sensible thing and talking about their feelings and needs, they struck a bargain - if they could buy a new house, a new car and go on a fancy vacation, she'd have a kid. She was trying to buy herself some time, but he got a couple of unexpected promotions and in the space of a year it was all done and baby time.
My dad was also very rigid and controlling, in a lot of the ways you describe your husband being. Couldn't tolerate mess or clutter in the house. Preoccupied with fitness and physical appearance. And while my mother tried sometimes to make it clear to us with her words that she was glad we were her kids even though she didn't really like or want kids, she also made it abundantly clear with her actions that she was overwhelmed by parenting, didn't enjoy it and didn't have the emotional capability to raise us in a healthy way.
Some aspects of my childhood experience:
Constant tension about the state of the house, routinely getting meltdown-level yelled at by my dad for making small/innocuous mess or general low-level untidiness.
Constant body shaming. My dad was a guy who really didn't want fat kids, and got fat kids. And was so obnoxious to me about my body growing up that this was a major factor in the eating disorder I eventually developed. The eating disorder he refused to address or acknowledge. He was also frequently appallingly rude about my mother's body. The body that bore him the two children he really wanted (incidentally, the two children he treated pretty badly, for all that he said he wanted us).
He had an extensive family history of mood disorders, including his mother. He also thought that his mother had been "indulged" by other family members and allowed to "behave badly" as a result of her mental illness. When I started developing mood disorder symptoms at a young age, he ignored/dismissed them, and then when I sought treatment as a young adult he repeatedly undermined and ridiculed my attempts.
Some of your husband's behaviours and attitudes sound like they're on the same spectrum as my dad. Maybe not as extreme (though my mother also said she wouldn't have married the man my dad turned into if he'd been like that when they were younger, and at least some of the change in him may have been from the stress of parenting), but same ballpark.
I would not ever consider having kids with a man with those traits without him doing some serious work first, particularly the rigidity, needing to have things his way, the need for control and the inability or unwillingness to extend enough empathy (e.g. to how you're feeling about having kids and your desire to slow down). His panic about timing is self-generated, yet he doesn't seem to have looked beyond himself for confirmation as to whether or not it's really a thing to worry about. He does not sound hugely self-aware, from the description you've given.
I have been the child of a man like that, and it was fucking horrible. My extremely-thoughtfully-considered position on my own parents in this situation is that it was incredibly unethical of them to have children when they didn't have the emotional capacity or capability (or willingness to grow those things) to raise small humans without profoundly damaging them. They are two people who just should not have reproduced. And, yes, the thought experiment version of that means I wouldn't exist and I am 100% fine with that. My life has been messy and painful and fucked up enough that I'd be fine with not having been born, and a huge amount of that comes from my upbringing. I have not found enough redemption in other aspects of being alive to come close to changing my mind about this.
My dad died last year, and I haven't really got around to the sadness part of grieving yet because I'm still so glad, to some extent, that he's dead and he can't hurt me any more, and still so angry for all the things he did that fucked me up and continue to fuck me up. Things which I am left with the emotional labour and significant financial cost of fixing through therapy. Trying to feel my way through a world I was in no way prepared for the realities of, because my broken parents essentially conditioned me to behave in ways that made them feel more comfortable and less anxious, rather than in ways that would actually help me grow and live as my own person.
I would only begin to consider having a child with someone on the same behavioural spectrum as my dad if they were willing to go to couples therapy and likely also individual therapy and work on the issues listed above, until you could guarantee that they'd be able to parent in a healthy, emotionally competent and self-aware way. My personal feeling is that there's too much at stake for your potential child in the long term to be worth taking the risk if that doesn't happen.
posted by terretu at 2:22 PM on September 2, 2015
My dad was also very rigid and controlling, in a lot of the ways you describe your husband being. Couldn't tolerate mess or clutter in the house. Preoccupied with fitness and physical appearance. And while my mother tried sometimes to make it clear to us with her words that she was glad we were her kids even though she didn't really like or want kids, she also made it abundantly clear with her actions that she was overwhelmed by parenting, didn't enjoy it and didn't have the emotional capability to raise us in a healthy way.
Some aspects of my childhood experience:
Constant tension about the state of the house, routinely getting meltdown-level yelled at by my dad for making small/innocuous mess or general low-level untidiness.
Constant body shaming. My dad was a guy who really didn't want fat kids, and got fat kids. And was so obnoxious to me about my body growing up that this was a major factor in the eating disorder I eventually developed. The eating disorder he refused to address or acknowledge. He was also frequently appallingly rude about my mother's body. The body that bore him the two children he really wanted (incidentally, the two children he treated pretty badly, for all that he said he wanted us).
He had an extensive family history of mood disorders, including his mother. He also thought that his mother had been "indulged" by other family members and allowed to "behave badly" as a result of her mental illness. When I started developing mood disorder symptoms at a young age, he ignored/dismissed them, and then when I sought treatment as a young adult he repeatedly undermined and ridiculed my attempts.
Some of your husband's behaviours and attitudes sound like they're on the same spectrum as my dad. Maybe not as extreme (though my mother also said she wouldn't have married the man my dad turned into if he'd been like that when they were younger, and at least some of the change in him may have been from the stress of parenting), but same ballpark.
I would not ever consider having kids with a man with those traits without him doing some serious work first, particularly the rigidity, needing to have things his way, the need for control and the inability or unwillingness to extend enough empathy (e.g. to how you're feeling about having kids and your desire to slow down). His panic about timing is self-generated, yet he doesn't seem to have looked beyond himself for confirmation as to whether or not it's really a thing to worry about. He does not sound hugely self-aware, from the description you've given.
I have been the child of a man like that, and it was fucking horrible. My extremely-thoughtfully-considered position on my own parents in this situation is that it was incredibly unethical of them to have children when they didn't have the emotional capacity or capability (or willingness to grow those things) to raise small humans without profoundly damaging them. They are two people who just should not have reproduced. And, yes, the thought experiment version of that means I wouldn't exist and I am 100% fine with that. My life has been messy and painful and fucked up enough that I'd be fine with not having been born, and a huge amount of that comes from my upbringing. I have not found enough redemption in other aspects of being alive to come close to changing my mind about this.
My dad died last year, and I haven't really got around to the sadness part of grieving yet because I'm still so glad, to some extent, that he's dead and he can't hurt me any more, and still so angry for all the things he did that fucked me up and continue to fuck me up. Things which I am left with the emotional labour and significant financial cost of fixing through therapy. Trying to feel my way through a world I was in no way prepared for the realities of, because my broken parents essentially conditioned me to behave in ways that made them feel more comfortable and less anxious, rather than in ways that would actually help me grow and live as my own person.
I would only begin to consider having a child with someone on the same behavioural spectrum as my dad if they were willing to go to couples therapy and likely also individual therapy and work on the issues listed above, until you could guarantee that they'd be able to parent in a healthy, emotionally competent and self-aware way. My personal feeling is that there's too much at stake for your potential child in the long term to be worth taking the risk if that doesn't happen.
posted by terretu at 2:22 PM on September 2, 2015
i started trying at 36 kept at it till 40 found out i'd left it too late. You can get a fertility test to show you how long you've got and you need to know before you make any other decisions. They do an ultrasound of your ovaries to count how many eggs you've got - it's like a cold dildo (well i've never experienced a dildo but it looked like one) it wasn't painful at all and i find the tests for cervical cancer painful. They do a blood test for hormone levels too. It costs £200 plus but you'll know then. Also, it becomes real when you're faced with it so you know how you really feel. If you want to do it later, if you want to adopt, you also need to know what you need for adoption: here, you need to have lived in the same house for the last 5 years and own it, and also be under 45, finding that out at 42 was too late. Treatment can take a year or two, so you need to factor in lots of time when planning ahead. If i had my time again, in addition to telling myself all this, i'd pay for the specialist fertility counselling nurse on the NHS - you need someone knowledgeable to discuss it with. Someone who can point out all the actual factors that bear on the case and what you can and can't do about fertility.
When you're infertile, it's over, that door's shut, it's final. It's not like the sort of deadlines that, as young person, you have so far experienced: it's your first absolute-as-death one. We have so much control over our lives, we're not used to dealing with quandaries like this. So you need facts first, 'feelings' second.
Everybody's response to telling them you're infertile is 'but my sister had her first at 53!'. Silently, you reply 'i know i'm infertile at 40. What is the relevance of that? Just because some random other person had a baby at 65 doesn't change anything about my infertility. And it's the only response you'll ever get, except when you hear the heartbreaking stories of other people who never told anyone, and so many people will unsuspectedly tell you this, the heartbreak...
I'm not saying you should have kids. I'm saying you should find out if you can, and how long you've got to make your mind up in, and what your options are, before you decide to have feelings or counselling or whatever. If you wanted to buy a house, you'd look at houses to see what there was, then decide if you would given what was available, not have therapy.
posted by maiamaia at 3:26 PM on September 2, 2015
When you're infertile, it's over, that door's shut, it's final. It's not like the sort of deadlines that, as young person, you have so far experienced: it's your first absolute-as-death one. We have so much control over our lives, we're not used to dealing with quandaries like this. So you need facts first, 'feelings' second.
Everybody's response to telling them you're infertile is 'but my sister had her first at 53!'. Silently, you reply 'i know i'm infertile at 40. What is the relevance of that? Just because some random other person had a baby at 65 doesn't change anything about my infertility. And it's the only response you'll ever get, except when you hear the heartbreaking stories of other people who never told anyone, and so many people will unsuspectedly tell you this, the heartbreak...
I'm not saying you should have kids. I'm saying you should find out if you can, and how long you've got to make your mind up in, and what your options are, before you decide to have feelings or counselling or whatever. If you wanted to buy a house, you'd look at houses to see what there was, then decide if you would given what was available, not have therapy.
posted by maiamaia at 3:26 PM on September 2, 2015
There's a ton to unpack here. I'll start by noting that my husband and I will NOT be having children. A lot of people will discount my opinion due to this, but actually it means that my husband and I have had TONS of talks about kids and parenting. We've even discussed views on phones, internet use, and time-outs!
One huge thing I see is that he's promising to be different when the kid comes. He should start being different NOW! There's an interesting thing on Ted Radio Hour called The Money Paradox which I think relates to this. Basically, cultures that use future language (tomorrow I'll do X) save LESS money than those that don't have future language. I think this relates in a ton of ways to change as a person too. Like "Tomorrow I'll go to the gym." He's using the same paradox here. He'll change "When the baby gets here - in the future."
Then, on top of this there's the whole issue that you can't change him. He needs to change on his own. That can mean there's incentives, such as you need to see that change in order to consider a child with him. I think that's totally valid.
I think YOU need to decide - isolated from your husband's opinion - what you want as far as children and when. Completely discount his opinion while deciding. I definitely think a therapist would be very useful for this. Hell, as cliche as it sounds, journaling or talking aloud to yourself can even help. Also information from a doctor may help your decision.
I also definitely agree with the posters that say you should NOT be pressured into a child. The worst thing I can imagine is a child who isn't 100000% wanted with parents who aren't on the same page about parenting and labor.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:31 PM on September 2, 2015
One huge thing I see is that he's promising to be different when the kid comes. He should start being different NOW! There's an interesting thing on Ted Radio Hour called The Money Paradox which I think relates to this. Basically, cultures that use future language (tomorrow I'll do X) save LESS money than those that don't have future language. I think this relates in a ton of ways to change as a person too. Like "Tomorrow I'll go to the gym." He's using the same paradox here. He'll change "When the baby gets here - in the future."
Then, on top of this there's the whole issue that you can't change him. He needs to change on his own. That can mean there's incentives, such as you need to see that change in order to consider a child with him. I think that's totally valid.
I think YOU need to decide - isolated from your husband's opinion - what you want as far as children and when. Completely discount his opinion while deciding. I definitely think a therapist would be very useful for this. Hell, as cliche as it sounds, journaling or talking aloud to yourself can even help. Also information from a doctor may help your decision.
I also definitely agree with the posters that say you should NOT be pressured into a child. The worst thing I can imagine is a child who isn't 100000% wanted with parents who aren't on the same page about parenting and labor.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:31 PM on September 2, 2015
It's not just having a kid, though that's definitely longer-term commitment. But even a healthy, much-wanted pregnancy can be difficult, exhausting, and deeply alienating, especially for people who have had issues with depression or had to fight to accept their bodies in their pre-pregnancy state.
In addition, the whole rigamorale of trying and not succeeding can be fucking horrible, especially if one partner is rigid and controlling and has firm ideas about How Things Ought to Go. I mean, your husband seems to be a high-pressure person -- which in and of itself isn't a bad thing. I'm a high-pressure person, too. Some people are. Some people aren't. But is your husband ready for the months or even years of failure that can come with even starting RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT NOW? Have the two of you talked about what will happen if you can't get pregnant "naturally"? Do you think that he'll blame you, either out loud or inside his head?
What happens if you ask him to delay a year, you end up delaying a year, and it's hard to conceive? How do you feel? How does he feel?
None of this is to say that you shouldn't have a kid, or have a kid with this dude. But I did want to highlight some aspects that have been pretty emotionally difficult for me.
In my case, we ended up waiting about 18 months in my early thirties because I wasn't ready, and because my husband recognized that even if he was willing to be the stay-at-home-parent and the primary caregiver, having biological kids meant I had to get pregnant and carry the kids and probably produce milk for the kids for a while and then deal with the potential long-term health effects on top of all the changes to our lives that came with having a kids. Consequently, he basically spent the next 18 months showing me that he was ready to hold up his end of the bargain. Which meant not only showing that he was ready to be an equal partner in the household by making me coffee-rubbed venison loin on a gently wilted bed of greens for lunch (this is not even a joke), but making clear that he respected my emotional needs -- he let me know, in the ways that matter most deeply to me, that he understood why I needed time to process and work through my feelings, and that even with the delay I'd asked for, he would never, ever, ever blame me if we couldn't have biological children or if I miscarried.
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:54 PM on September 2, 2015
In addition, the whole rigamorale of trying and not succeeding can be fucking horrible, especially if one partner is rigid and controlling and has firm ideas about How Things Ought to Go. I mean, your husband seems to be a high-pressure person -- which in and of itself isn't a bad thing. I'm a high-pressure person, too. Some people are. Some people aren't. But is your husband ready for the months or even years of failure that can come with even starting RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT NOW? Have the two of you talked about what will happen if you can't get pregnant "naturally"? Do you think that he'll blame you, either out loud or inside his head?
What happens if you ask him to delay a year, you end up delaying a year, and it's hard to conceive? How do you feel? How does he feel?
None of this is to say that you shouldn't have a kid, or have a kid with this dude. But I did want to highlight some aspects that have been pretty emotionally difficult for me.
In my case, we ended up waiting about 18 months in my early thirties because I wasn't ready, and because my husband recognized that even if he was willing to be the stay-at-home-parent and the primary caregiver, having biological kids meant I had to get pregnant and carry the kids and probably produce milk for the kids for a while and then deal with the potential long-term health effects on top of all the changes to our lives that came with having a kids. Consequently, he basically spent the next 18 months showing me that he was ready to hold up his end of the bargain. Which meant not only showing that he was ready to be an equal partner in the household by making me coffee-rubbed venison loin on a gently wilted bed of greens for lunch (this is not even a joke), but making clear that he respected my emotional needs -- he let me know, in the ways that matter most deeply to me, that he understood why I needed time to process and work through my feelings, and that even with the delay I'd asked for, he would never, ever, ever blame me if we couldn't have biological children or if I miscarried.
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:54 PM on September 2, 2015
I think this was actually good advice:
Instead of leaving your purse hanging on the chair, upend the contents all over the floor, and then grab a banana, two candles and a stapler and add them to the mix. Refuse to put any of it away for no particular reason.
I'm picking up on what you are saying about yourself and what you are saying about your husband - and I think you are putting way too much of this on yourself. I don't think you aren't ready for children, actually. I think you know that your husband isn't. And I think that is a scary thing.
posted by Toddles at 5:10 PM on September 2, 2015
Instead of leaving your purse hanging on the chair, upend the contents all over the floor, and then grab a banana, two candles and a stapler and add them to the mix. Refuse to put any of it away for no particular reason.
I'm picking up on what you are saying about yourself and what you are saying about your husband - and I think you are putting way too much of this on yourself. I don't think you aren't ready for children, actually. I think you know that your husband isn't. And I think that is a scary thing.
posted by Toddles at 5:10 PM on September 2, 2015
You said you have already done some reading on the childfree life. One book you might want to look at on the other side of things is called Waiting for Daisy by Peggy Orenstein, about a woman who went through infertility. I'd say she comes off as pretty neurotic in the book, but you definitely get a look at another extreme and some of her reflections are thought provoking.
I'm also amongst those who delayed childbearing and then struggled with infertility (I started trying at age 29, got pregnant with assisted reproductive technology at 31). So I definitely would encourage getting your own situation examined (including a semen analysis for him) rather than relying on statistics. As maiamaia wisely points out, statistics and anecdotes don't matter really, you are an N of 1.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2015
I'm also amongst those who delayed childbearing and then struggled with infertility (I started trying at age 29, got pregnant with assisted reproductive technology at 31). So I definitely would encourage getting your own situation examined (including a semen analysis for him) rather than relying on statistics. As maiamaia wisely points out, statistics and anecdotes don't matter really, you are an N of 1.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2015
If I were him, I'd be wondering what exactly will be different a year from now. Is there some big life adventure that you want to have before getting pregnant? If so, plan it! Do you want to have saved more money? Decide on an amount, and tell him that as a deadline instead of time. I'm with him that the time deadline just sounds so arbitrary that it's hard to imagine why you would feel differently then.
In your shoes I'd be much more interested in asking him to work on some stuff before being willing to commit to children. For example, maybe he needs to see a therapist a few times about his body image issues and rigidity. Maybe you decide he needs some hands-on child experience. Can you offer to babysit for your friends a few times? Preferably for a full day or two? And then see if your husband can step up to do his share?
I've always said if I were to have kids, I would need my husband to commit to reading a bunch of parenting books before I even got pregnant. Women are saturated with information about childcare and babies and child development. They tend to help out more with siblings, they are closer confidants of friends who have babies, they babysit, their mothers tell them about childcare, etc. That makes them the default person with the knowledge once a baby is born, and it's a fundamental imbalance in the parenting situation. Also it means women are often more able to be realistic about what children will mean for their day to day life. If I were you, I'd need him to get to that same level of knowledge and realism as you before I could trust that he is really up for all the challenges.
posted by lollusc at 7:02 PM on September 2, 2015
In your shoes I'd be much more interested in asking him to work on some stuff before being willing to commit to children. For example, maybe he needs to see a therapist a few times about his body image issues and rigidity. Maybe you decide he needs some hands-on child experience. Can you offer to babysit for your friends a few times? Preferably for a full day or two? And then see if your husband can step up to do his share?
I've always said if I were to have kids, I would need my husband to commit to reading a bunch of parenting books before I even got pregnant. Women are saturated with information about childcare and babies and child development. They tend to help out more with siblings, they are closer confidants of friends who have babies, they babysit, their mothers tell them about childcare, etc. That makes them the default person with the knowledge once a baby is born, and it's a fundamental imbalance in the parenting situation. Also it means women are often more able to be realistic about what children will mean for their day to day life. If I were you, I'd need him to get to that same level of knowledge and realism as you before I could trust that he is really up for all the challenges.
posted by lollusc at 7:02 PM on September 2, 2015
Having known people with infertility issues that took forever to find and solve, I don't think you can just say "great, his sperm checks out, and my hormones check out, so we're good! We can plan on conception happening quickly!" as perhaps (?) some comments here might imply. You'd have to go down a whole long route of increasingly invasive tests to rule out something that medical science can detect, and it could still be something amorphous that they can help with but would probably not have forecast. (At least in my non professional observation of people's lives.) I'd plan on the whole trying-to-conceive thing taking a while regardless.
I'm not trying to scare you or anything. I just want to point out that life is unpredictable. You might take a year to get pregnant, or it might happen immediately. It's not uncommon for people to have early miscarriages (may you be fortunate enough not to), which can extend the time. Also, how many children do you want? Are you thinking "One and Done," or do you want siblings? How far apart do you want them to be spaced? It's worth counting the months and considering that things might not go according to plan.
I'm just throwing all of this out as things to think about. I know a lot of people who started much later than 32, overcame challenges, and still created the family they want. I'm not at all trying to fearmonger. But I think your life will be lower stress if you start trying to have kids with the up-front awareness that it's a process you can't entirely predict or control.
posted by salvia at 7:09 PM on September 2, 2015
I'm not trying to scare you or anything. I just want to point out that life is unpredictable. You might take a year to get pregnant, or it might happen immediately. It's not uncommon for people to have early miscarriages (may you be fortunate enough not to), which can extend the time. Also, how many children do you want? Are you thinking "One and Done," or do you want siblings? How far apart do you want them to be spaced? It's worth counting the months and considering that things might not go according to plan.
I'm just throwing all of this out as things to think about. I know a lot of people who started much later than 32, overcame challenges, and still created the family they want. I'm not at all trying to fearmonger. But I think your life will be lower stress if you start trying to have kids with the up-front awareness that it's a process you can't entirely predict or control.
posted by salvia at 7:09 PM on September 2, 2015
First, I would say that you already have a family. You have a family home and family dynamics. You don't talk here about what is driving your husband's baby timeline, but I wonder if it comes from a place of feeling that a family doesn't count until it has children.
I did not feel ready to have children at 32, and I recently became pregnant at the age of 35. I feel a lot more ready than I think I would have three years ago. For me, this shift in attitude has been about meeting specific career goals (so I'm much more stable if I take time off) and seeing several close friends have kids in the past few years (and seeing how they've survived it). Also I have changed and matured in that time. My thirties have really been time of personal growth, so your ideas here about feeling differently in another year strike me as totally legitimate.
It seems a bit unfortunate that a year ago you said you would start trying now, instead of saying something like that you will consider it seriously now. But here we are. And I doubt you made a solemn vow about it, so I don't quite understand why your husband is reacting this way. I would expect him to be focusing on what you want and need to feel fulfilled and certain about this. It feels to me like your husband is putting The Plan and your perceived deviation from it ahead of the needs of your current actual family.
posted by ewok_academy at 7:29 PM on September 2, 2015
I did not feel ready to have children at 32, and I recently became pregnant at the age of 35. I feel a lot more ready than I think I would have three years ago. For me, this shift in attitude has been about meeting specific career goals (so I'm much more stable if I take time off) and seeing several close friends have kids in the past few years (and seeing how they've survived it). Also I have changed and matured in that time. My thirties have really been time of personal growth, so your ideas here about feeling differently in another year strike me as totally legitimate.
It seems a bit unfortunate that a year ago you said you would start trying now, instead of saying something like that you will consider it seriously now. But here we are. And I doubt you made a solemn vow about it, so I don't quite understand why your husband is reacting this way. I would expect him to be focusing on what you want and need to feel fulfilled and certain about this. It feels to me like your husband is putting The Plan and your perceived deviation from it ahead of the needs of your current actual family.
posted by ewok_academy at 7:29 PM on September 2, 2015
It's probably not too late, no-- but as others pointed out, if you are absolutely sure you want children then you need to consider the risk that one of you has a problem. 33 if all is normal is more than enough time. 33 if you have an issue can be a challenge. You have to both decide for yourself how much you can live with the risk that it doesn't happen and still have the life you want.
I started trying earlier than you, and it didn't work out for me. My marriage was a casualty, because biological children turned out to be a deal breaker for my ex. (I understand this, even though it left me in a bad position.)
I have a great life without children. There is nothing wrong with a life without children. I am happy and fulfilled and have people around me who I love and I am not frightened of dying old alone. However, I wish very much that my ex and I had really examined this when I was much much younger because being left left for something over 40 which is not in your control is really not a lot of fun. And tbh there was a history of pregnancy related problems in my family, so it was not inconceivable that it wouldn't work.
What leaps out at me is that he's considering leaving you now for the delay. What will he do if you try and you can't make it work? Can you trust him to stand by you?
posted by frumiousb at 9:59 PM on September 2, 2015
I started trying earlier than you, and it didn't work out for me. My marriage was a casualty, because biological children turned out to be a deal breaker for my ex. (I understand this, even though it left me in a bad position.)
I have a great life without children. There is nothing wrong with a life without children. I am happy and fulfilled and have people around me who I love and I am not frightened of dying old alone. However, I wish very much that my ex and I had really examined this when I was much much younger because being left left for something over 40 which is not in your control is really not a lot of fun. And tbh there was a history of pregnancy related problems in my family, so it was not inconceivable that it wouldn't work.
What leaps out at me is that he's considering leaving you now for the delay. What will he do if you try and you can't make it work? Can you trust him to stand by you?
posted by frumiousb at 9:59 PM on September 2, 2015
Having a child will take over a woman's life. Definitely takes over her body, probably takes over most of her life on a good day, in ways that it just won't with a man. It's easier for a man to want kids, and even if you agree ahead of time he'll be a SAHD, it may not happen. Heck, you may end up parenting the kid he wanted so badly alone while he pulls a flake n' bail. Women can't really be "the dad" in a heterosexual relationship, sadly. (I wish.)
If you don't 100% passionately want kids, you shouldn't be having them, and it's entirely possible that your marriage should break up over this. (Much as people bitch about Eat, Pray, Love, the start of it is features exactly your problem right there.) All of the work can and most likely will be all on you alone, and if you're not 100% down with that, then you really shouldn't be having them--see the examples in this thread as to why not.
Remember, he can probably find someone else to have a child with ASAP if he wants, but once you've had his baby you're stuck in the situation, like it or not.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:05 PM on September 2, 2015
If you don't 100% passionately want kids, you shouldn't be having them, and it's entirely possible that your marriage should break up over this. (Much as people bitch about Eat, Pray, Love, the start of it is features exactly your problem right there.) All of the work can and most likely will be all on you alone, and if you're not 100% down with that, then you really shouldn't be having them--see the examples in this thread as to why not.
Remember, he can probably find someone else to have a child with ASAP if he wants, but once you've had his baby you're stuck in the situation, like it or not.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:05 PM on September 2, 2015
I dont think your husband is great father material nor do I think he honestly even gets what being a father or husband is about. You're going to be putting yourself, your health, your body on the line to gestate a kid he's going to inevitably yell at for being messy or crying or just being a kid. Then he'll make the family dynamic worse, and it sounds miserable.
Do not have a child with this man. Bottom line. He's not decent father material yet and he's not even trying to think about what being a good father means.
posted by discopolo at 4:30 AM on September 3, 2015
Do not have a child with this man. Bottom line. He's not decent father material yet and he's not even trying to think about what being a good father means.
posted by discopolo at 4:30 AM on September 3, 2015
He keeps changing the rules, doesn't he? First he doesn't want them, now he does. How can you keep up?
Start living your life how you want to live it. Leave your purse on the table like a normal person. If he moves it, start a huge fight. Wear him down. Break him in. Living life as yourself, instead of the person your husband demands that you be, will decide if the two of you have a real chance of co-parenting successfully. Right now, it sounds like you have very little personal space that he doesn't control. Having a baby will take away that tiny bit of you that you still have. Having babies and family is wonderful but, having babies and a family with a controlling partner is incredibly lonely. Being pregnant with a controlling partner is incredibly lonely. Will he rub your feet? Will he bring you your cravings? Will he be gentle with you and not make you cry? Will he bring you fast food because that is what your body wants or will he hassle you about your every diet choice because you are his incubator? Therapy can help all of this. Someone needs to step in and wake him up a little. And you need to be honest with him on all things, otherwise, nothing is going to work out well.
posted by myselfasme at 5:54 AM on September 3, 2015
Start living your life how you want to live it. Leave your purse on the table like a normal person. If he moves it, start a huge fight. Wear him down. Break him in. Living life as yourself, instead of the person your husband demands that you be, will decide if the two of you have a real chance of co-parenting successfully. Right now, it sounds like you have very little personal space that he doesn't control. Having a baby will take away that tiny bit of you that you still have. Having babies and family is wonderful but, having babies and a family with a controlling partner is incredibly lonely. Being pregnant with a controlling partner is incredibly lonely. Will he rub your feet? Will he bring you your cravings? Will he be gentle with you and not make you cry? Will he bring you fast food because that is what your body wants or will he hassle you about your every diet choice because you are his incubator? Therapy can help all of this. Someone needs to step in and wake him up a little. And you need to be honest with him on all things, otherwise, nothing is going to work out well.
posted by myselfasme at 5:54 AM on September 3, 2015
I don't think you should have a baby if you're not ready, but if he does then perhaps a separation is best. That being said, I just had a baby with a man who is a fitness buff with no baby experience and he's an amazing dad to our baby- so tender and attentive that it brings tears to my eyes. Before our baby I worked out to and I know he values having an active spouse BUT he's been very kind about my chubby post partum body and he really understood that having a baby was hard and put me through the wringer. In terms of tidiness its not that hard to keep things relatively clean and we've taken turns making dinner etc. Having a baby is full on, but it doesn't have to kill all the things you hold dear. We still go out for dinner and he gets to cycle and he watches the baby if I want to go wander around the shops.
posted by pairofshades at 8:03 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by pairofshades at 8:03 AM on September 3, 2015
You shouldn't be focusing on how he says he would treat a baby. You should focus on how he treats YOU.
My current husband seemed to have zero interest when I started getting a little baby-obsessed. (For me, that involved wanting to babysit friends' kids because anything more than snuggling kind of frightened me and I needed to get used to it.) I would say, "Hold the baby! I want to see you do it!" and he'd say, "I've held a baby before! There, are you happy?"
But the way he treats ME showed what kind of father he would be. He is tender and kind; he listens to me when I am frustrated and don't know how to describe what is upsetting me. He takes pleasure in little moments and enjoys the time we spend together at home without needing to be distracted by entertainment or having things a particular way.
He is the best father I could imagine. Hell, he's almost certainly a better parent than I am. He puts our daughter's needs first, but he keeps things simple in case of (inevitable) change and doesn't lose his own identity as my partner. We laugh about the stupid stuff. There's a lot of stupid stuff. And MOST IMPORTANTLY he trades off with me, and we don't "keep a tally" except to try to to be fair to the other person.
My first husband constantly berated me about my own inabilities to do things the way they should be, even though his own choices were dragging him into the ground. He actually said that he didn't think he would want to be a father after all, because he felt like he had parented me. Think about that.
Until i met my current husband, I never wanted kids. I was frightened of having a baby, uncomfortable around kids and the idea of watching them all the time because it would dig into my time to do what I wanted to do (which was often nothing, but it was MY CHOICE).
I got into that kind of thinking because my mom, the oldest of nine very wanted children of a very put-upon mom, is living in her own nightmare even today (I'm 35) of bemoaning the choices she didn't have, and making me feel bad about my behavior throughout my life because I wanted very simple things and courtesies. She is inflexible when things are "wrong" and at the same time never gives us a static bar of what IS acceptable in her world. So that kind of sucks, too.
You will never be completely ready for a kid. That's okay! Nobody is! We all muddle through together. Every kid is different. To be honest, I actually like the complications of having a kid because sometimes there's just no choice for what you have to do. Kid is dirty? Clean her up before she makes everything else dirty. End of story.
But if your husband can't give you the kind of responsibility sharing, tenderness, gratitude for what you bring to the marriage and all that NOW, what makes you think he will flip a switch when you become parents? Because let me tell you, you'll have enough change in your life without having to reprogram your brain to be a nicer and more caring human.
posted by St. Hubbins at 12:04 PM on September 3, 2015
My current husband seemed to have zero interest when I started getting a little baby-obsessed. (For me, that involved wanting to babysit friends' kids because anything more than snuggling kind of frightened me and I needed to get used to it.) I would say, "Hold the baby! I want to see you do it!" and he'd say, "I've held a baby before! There, are you happy?"
But the way he treats ME showed what kind of father he would be. He is tender and kind; he listens to me when I am frustrated and don't know how to describe what is upsetting me. He takes pleasure in little moments and enjoys the time we spend together at home without needing to be distracted by entertainment or having things a particular way.
He is the best father I could imagine. Hell, he's almost certainly a better parent than I am. He puts our daughter's needs first, but he keeps things simple in case of (inevitable) change and doesn't lose his own identity as my partner. We laugh about the stupid stuff. There's a lot of stupid stuff. And MOST IMPORTANTLY he trades off with me, and we don't "keep a tally" except to try to to be fair to the other person.
My first husband constantly berated me about my own inabilities to do things the way they should be, even though his own choices were dragging him into the ground. He actually said that he didn't think he would want to be a father after all, because he felt like he had parented me. Think about that.
Until i met my current husband, I never wanted kids. I was frightened of having a baby, uncomfortable around kids and the idea of watching them all the time because it would dig into my time to do what I wanted to do (which was often nothing, but it was MY CHOICE).
I got into that kind of thinking because my mom, the oldest of nine very wanted children of a very put-upon mom, is living in her own nightmare even today (I'm 35) of bemoaning the choices she didn't have, and making me feel bad about my behavior throughout my life because I wanted very simple things and courtesies. She is inflexible when things are "wrong" and at the same time never gives us a static bar of what IS acceptable in her world. So that kind of sucks, too.
You will never be completely ready for a kid. That's okay! Nobody is! We all muddle through together. Every kid is different. To be honest, I actually like the complications of having a kid because sometimes there's just no choice for what you have to do. Kid is dirty? Clean her up before she makes everything else dirty. End of story.
But if your husband can't give you the kind of responsibility sharing, tenderness, gratitude for what you bring to the marriage and all that NOW, what makes you think he will flip a switch when you become parents? Because let me tell you, you'll have enough change in your life without having to reprogram your brain to be a nicer and more caring human.
posted by St. Hubbins at 12:04 PM on September 3, 2015
> My husband promises that tidiness and the way my body looks won't be issues when the baby comes along.
I'm going to second this:
> Then he should start by not mind untidiness now. :)
Except without the smiley. You should tell him you'll know he's ready for a baby when he can deal with the much less serious untidiness he has to deal with now. Let him put his behavior where his mouth is.
posted by languagehat at 12:53 PM on September 3, 2015
I'm going to second this:
> Then he should start by not mind untidiness now. :)
Except without the smiley. You should tell him you'll know he's ready for a baby when he can deal with the much less serious untidiness he has to deal with now. Let him put his behavior where his mouth is.
posted by languagehat at 12:53 PM on September 3, 2015
Yes, I agree with others that you may indeed want kids, but just not with him. You have completely valid concerns about his capacity to parent -- and certainly, I would not want to have kids with someone who insisted that I work out 3-4 times a week or could not accept my body as it is right now. His neat-freak tendencies raise red flags for you and his lip-service on this point ("I will change when the baby comes") is not believable in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.
The reservations you express aren't just about whether he can parent -- they seem to also touch on your compatibility and functioning as a couple. You say you're in love with the life you have -- but are you also in love with him?
I want to also express kudos for being honest and up front about your feelings with him. That's not an easy thing to do when it comes to the kid thing, so congrats on being true to yourself and respecting your intuition.
posted by Gray Skies at 1:38 PM on September 3, 2015
The reservations you express aren't just about whether he can parent -- they seem to also touch on your compatibility and functioning as a couple. You say you're in love with the life you have -- but are you also in love with him?
I want to also express kudos for being honest and up front about your feelings with him. That's not an easy thing to do when it comes to the kid thing, so congrats on being true to yourself and respecting your intuition.
posted by Gray Skies at 1:38 PM on September 3, 2015
Oh I will add this:
As someone who is not particularly interested in having kids (yet open to it), the single most important thing that has made me potentially more interested is observing how my partner behaves with me and in our everyday life together. When shit hits the fan, she remains calm, cool and collected. She's great with managing stressful situations and she's consistently loving and kind. All of these qualities reassure me that she'd be a great parent -- because she's a great partner now. St. Hubbins nailed it. Look at how your husband treats you now and use that as a barometer for how he will behave as a father.
Think about it this way: Things are pretty easy now, but he's very rigid and neurotic. Things would be chaotic with a kid and he's still not demonstrated that he can hold it together when things are relatively calm.
The more I consider your situation, the more I think you should explain to him that some of his behavior patterns could be deal breakers for you when it comes to building a family together. A couples counselor might be able to mediate the conversation.
posted by Gray Skies at 2:30 PM on September 3, 2015
As someone who is not particularly interested in having kids (yet open to it), the single most important thing that has made me potentially more interested is observing how my partner behaves with me and in our everyday life together. When shit hits the fan, she remains calm, cool and collected. She's great with managing stressful situations and she's consistently loving and kind. All of these qualities reassure me that she'd be a great parent -- because she's a great partner now. St. Hubbins nailed it. Look at how your husband treats you now and use that as a barometer for how he will behave as a father.
Think about it this way: Things are pretty easy now, but he's very rigid and neurotic. Things would be chaotic with a kid and he's still not demonstrated that he can hold it together when things are relatively calm.
The more I consider your situation, the more I think you should explain to him that some of his behavior patterns could be deal breakers for you when it comes to building a family together. A couples counselor might be able to mediate the conversation.
posted by Gray Skies at 2:30 PM on September 3, 2015
Sounds like you have the resources to freeze your eggs and/or embryos. Maybe that is a compromise position you two should explore. It would greatly increase the likelihood that you'll be able to have kids when you're both ready.
posted by Doc_Sock at 4:22 PM on September 3, 2015
posted by Doc_Sock at 4:22 PM on September 3, 2015
Any time I hear that someone's significant other has a thing about them exercising I get my hackles up. Same with messiness. These are red flags that should not be ignored.
I am afraid that with the massive stress of a new baby he will not be able to help himself
Yeah, so: this right here is the problem. If he does not have the ability to "help himself" from essentially being an asshole - because policing someone else the way your husband does in relation to your exercise and where you put your damn purse is asshole behavior and I just can't see it any other way - that's a problem. He needs to learn how to control himself instead of trying to control you (and your currently hypothetical children) before he is ready to be a father. This is why therapy is needed.
posted by sockermom at 6:00 AM on September 4, 2015
I am afraid that with the massive stress of a new baby he will not be able to help himself
Yeah, so: this right here is the problem. If he does not have the ability to "help himself" from essentially being an asshole - because policing someone else the way your husband does in relation to your exercise and where you put your damn purse is asshole behavior and I just can't see it any other way - that's a problem. He needs to learn how to control himself instead of trying to control you (and your currently hypothetical children) before he is ready to be a father. This is why therapy is needed.
posted by sockermom at 6:00 AM on September 4, 2015
Rather, he talks about kids in terms of being able to show them the constellations in the sky, and having people to cherish and care about us in our old age.
Oh no. Sorry, but that first part about the constellations, that old romantic notion about having children, and imparting your wisdom. There's no guarantee with children that they'll even be interested in your wisdom, as much as there's no guarantee they'll be cherishing and caring about you when you're old.
I like that you acknowledged at the beginning that this doesn't seem a matter of right or wrong, but I can't help but be strongly on your side. It does seem that he wants things exactly his way - to be trying for pregnancy yesterday already, and for you to be thrilled about it. And it is certainly more of a sacrifice for you.
32 also isn't old at all, and it worries me that he thinks that by one more year, he'll already be too old for a second child; have you even discussed having more than one?
posted by NatalieWood at 9:21 PM on September 4, 2015
Oh no. Sorry, but that first part about the constellations, that old romantic notion about having children, and imparting your wisdom. There's no guarantee with children that they'll even be interested in your wisdom, as much as there's no guarantee they'll be cherishing and caring about you when you're old.
I like that you acknowledged at the beginning that this doesn't seem a matter of right or wrong, but I can't help but be strongly on your side. It does seem that he wants things exactly his way - to be trying for pregnancy yesterday already, and for you to be thrilled about it. And it is certainly more of a sacrifice for you.
32 also isn't old at all, and it worries me that he thinks that by one more year, he'll already be too old for a second child; have you even discussed having more than one?
posted by NatalieWood at 9:21 PM on September 4, 2015
While I agree with almost all of the other posters that you have a lot to think about I just wanted to offer a slightly alternate viewpoint. One commenter said that for her, "70% sure was as good as it gets, for me" - I think that's useful to think about. I have one child who is almost 2, so the decision to have a kid is still pretty vivid. I think for me, I was never going to be 100% sure. I am definitely not the "motherly" type, I'm sure no one would have been surprised if I had never had children. But I decided it was something I wanted. I don't really like babies at all - I like my baby but I'm really happy she's not a little baby anymore. I am not generally enthused about newborns, and very happy that my kid is out of the stage. I'm not eager to return to that stage if I have another. My point is that I think your husband has a point, thinking about the idea of kids when they are older and when you are older. Yeah, there's no guaruntees but odds are you'll have a lifelong relationship with your kids. Think about the adults your kid(s) would become, and do you want that in your life? I do, so I have a kid. And I like her a lot now too, so win-win. But it's not like I was super psyched about having a baby, specifically. I was excited about the idea of a child/the relationship over time. I guess it just seems like you're really focused on the BABY stage, and maybe losing sight of the bigger picture?
posted by annie o at 9:52 PM on September 4, 2015
posted by annie o at 9:52 PM on September 4, 2015
The way I read his promises to 'not be like that' when you have kids remind me of how I am when I really want to do/buy something. Like, ifi buy X gadget It will be totally worthwhile cause I'll get up at 5am and go jogging and then eat kale smoothies and clean the house and life will be super awesome! But I'm me and while people can change its bloody hard work and exhausting and requires tonnes of emotional energy. All things in short supply when you are doing the incredibly hard work of raising a child. Hard for anyone - I've babysat a tonne - but going to be so much harder for you as the one dealing physically, hormonally etc.
I feel like to him kids are the life changing gadget. I think a person needs enough insight into themselves to honestly say if the 'gadget' will change them or not. The examples above, of husbands promising an equal role and then dumping it all on the mom, yeah, they didnt change. Life from their perspective got to stay the same but better cause all their partners hard work on junior reflects wonderfully on them. Kids do change some people for the better but its a big gamble especially if you don't feel ready. Not only is there the risk you get to do it all 100% alone but to do so after years of tension and stress first.
My advice is lots of family therapy. I think you guys really need to dig through the motivations and possible futures. If he's going to be cool with mess etc in the future he needs to demonstrate it now. Kids aren't customised dolls who will be what you want to be. I learned this as an 12 year old big sister : baby sis had a personality and I had to deal with that. Pointing out constellations and someone to care for you in old age, OMG, that perspective is scary. What if kid is blind, doesn't give a toss, is flat out rude about it ? And old age, even in the happiest of families plenty of people end up living far away from their parents and dont help at all so the oldies are both alone AND get to feel abandoned because they aren't getting the care they expected. Or kid could have the best of intentions but kids spouse also has family and might have the stronger claim to time with them. Who knows what will happen, its not a reason to have kids. He might just have trouble articulating his desire but i think its worth unpicking in therapy. I would've loved to have kids if I got got the 1950's TV husband's life but its not reality.
All the best to you.
posted by kitten magic at 9:58 PM on September 4, 2015
I feel like to him kids are the life changing gadget. I think a person needs enough insight into themselves to honestly say if the 'gadget' will change them or not. The examples above, of husbands promising an equal role and then dumping it all on the mom, yeah, they didnt change. Life from their perspective got to stay the same but better cause all their partners hard work on junior reflects wonderfully on them. Kids do change some people for the better but its a big gamble especially if you don't feel ready. Not only is there the risk you get to do it all 100% alone but to do so after years of tension and stress first.
My advice is lots of family therapy. I think you guys really need to dig through the motivations and possible futures. If he's going to be cool with mess etc in the future he needs to demonstrate it now. Kids aren't customised dolls who will be what you want to be. I learned this as an 12 year old big sister : baby sis had a personality and I had to deal with that. Pointing out constellations and someone to care for you in old age, OMG, that perspective is scary. What if kid is blind, doesn't give a toss, is flat out rude about it ? And old age, even in the happiest of families plenty of people end up living far away from their parents and dont help at all so the oldies are both alone AND get to feel abandoned because they aren't getting the care they expected. Or kid could have the best of intentions but kids spouse also has family and might have the stronger claim to time with them. Who knows what will happen, its not a reason to have kids. He might just have trouble articulating his desire but i think its worth unpicking in therapy. I would've loved to have kids if I got got the 1950's TV husband's life but its not reality.
All the best to you.
posted by kitten magic at 9:58 PM on September 4, 2015
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You need to keep repeating this as often and as firmly as necessary. I can sort of understand his over-the-top feelings, but I am shocked that he would pressure you the way he's doing. He needs to back off and take you and what you say seriously.
posted by languagehat at 11:33 AM on September 2, 2015