I don't want to be a sleazy landlord but I will need to withhold some $$
July 15, 2015 8:44 AM
What would be considered normal wear and tear in a rental property to deduct from a security deposit after 6 years? The place looks pretty bad.
My tenant of 6 years moved out of my condo in Denver, CO last week. She had several kids and a dog. What would I be able to consider as wear and tear after this period of time?
The place looks terrible and she made little effort to clean so I will be hiring a cleaning service and deduct that cost from her deposit.
The carpet is ten years old and looks good in some spots but in others there are stains, marker marks and one giant perfectly round rainbow colored stain. There is one tear in the carpet where the living room joins the master bedroom. That maybe from a poor carpet install and on me. There are lots of scuffs, liquid spills and general grime like darkening of the wall where the kids probably played and I believe need to be cleaned before any repainting can begin. There are holes, picture hangers, screws and thumbtacks still stuck in the walls and numerous paint chips. I am going to count but I would guess that there are up to 50-100 of these little holes. There are no large holes in the walls, but two spots where a poor patch job was done. The window sills are damaged with the paint chipping a curling from the windows being open during rain. The window screens have holes and have been pushed out of the window partially. The blinds are all bent and filthy.
Strangely, I received another rent check after she left. I’m not sure what to do with it.
What I feel are fair deductions:
Cleaning including the refrigerator, oven and fireplace.
Window blinds
Window sills
Window screens
Fixing the little holes in the walls which will take time.
Keeping in mind that she has been a long term renter; what would be reasonable wear and tear in a case like this? Is it fair to deduct anything for replacing the carpet and repainting? Her deposit is only $800 and wouldn’t go very far.
My tenant of 6 years moved out of my condo in Denver, CO last week. She had several kids and a dog. What would I be able to consider as wear and tear after this period of time?
The place looks terrible and she made little effort to clean so I will be hiring a cleaning service and deduct that cost from her deposit.
The carpet is ten years old and looks good in some spots but in others there are stains, marker marks and one giant perfectly round rainbow colored stain. There is one tear in the carpet where the living room joins the master bedroom. That maybe from a poor carpet install and on me. There are lots of scuffs, liquid spills and general grime like darkening of the wall where the kids probably played and I believe need to be cleaned before any repainting can begin. There are holes, picture hangers, screws and thumbtacks still stuck in the walls and numerous paint chips. I am going to count but I would guess that there are up to 50-100 of these little holes. There are no large holes in the walls, but two spots where a poor patch job was done. The window sills are damaged with the paint chipping a curling from the windows being open during rain. The window screens have holes and have been pushed out of the window partially. The blinds are all bent and filthy.
Strangely, I received another rent check after she left. I’m not sure what to do with it.
What I feel are fair deductions:
Cleaning including the refrigerator, oven and fireplace.
Window blinds
Window sills
Window screens
Fixing the little holes in the walls which will take time.
Keeping in mind that she has been a long term renter; what would be reasonable wear and tear in a case like this? Is it fair to deduct anything for replacing the carpet and repainting? Her deposit is only $800 and wouldn’t go very far.
I think that in the long term situation, you need to take into account pretty significant wear and tear. I think that painting and reasonable hole patching shouldn't be deducted. If the carpet wear and small stains merit replacement, own their own (without the large rainbow stain) then that also sounds like normal wear and tear.
I think the broken blinds are the only thing that is clearly her fault.
Also, some of this might be covered by statute, case law, or regulation where you live, so you should check.
posted by mercredi at 8:56 AM on July 15, 2015
I think the broken blinds are the only thing that is clearly her fault.
Also, some of this might be covered by statute, case law, or regulation where you live, so you should check.
posted by mercredi at 8:56 AM on July 15, 2015
Definitely familiarize yourself with local landlord/tenant code. That will determine what you can charge to the tenant and what you can't. People on the Internet can't tell you what you can take out of the deposit.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:00 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:00 AM on July 15, 2015
The extra rent check is separate from the deposit situation. Void it and send it back, even if - overall - you are left out of pocket. If you mix that in, then I'd kinda argue that you are being the sleazy landlord you don't want to be.
Onto what should be deducted. If the tenant didn't clean, then seems more than reasonable to charge for that. Same as the broken and dirty blinds. The same for cleaning the refrigerator, oven and fireplace. If I didn't do this, I'd expect to lose a related chunk of my deposit.
However, the carpet - it's been six years now, and allowing for reasonable wear and tear, that one is on you.
Everything else seems subjective and, as others have said, down to the interpretation of the local code. You may also want to take time-stamped pictures of everything that is debatable, in case there's any quibbling.
posted by Wordshore at 9:04 AM on July 15, 2015
Onto what should be deducted. If the tenant didn't clean, then seems more than reasonable to charge for that. Same as the broken and dirty blinds. The same for cleaning the refrigerator, oven and fireplace. If I didn't do this, I'd expect to lose a related chunk of my deposit.
However, the carpet - it's been six years now, and allowing for reasonable wear and tear, that one is on you.
Everything else seems subjective and, as others have said, down to the interpretation of the local code. You may also want to take time-stamped pictures of everything that is debatable, in case there's any quibbling.
posted by Wordshore at 9:04 AM on July 15, 2015
After six years the carpets need to be replaced and the place does need to be repainted, it's just a cost of doing business if you want to be a landlord.
posted by Oktober at 9:05 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by Oktober at 9:05 AM on July 15, 2015
Unfortunately, AskMe can't give you an answer that you can rely on for how to protect your legal interests related to the security deposit, because AskMe can't provide legal advice for your specific situation. However, there are legal resources online that may be able to help you figure out how to document the damage, how much time you have to return the security deposit and/or an itemized list of deductions, and what damage is reasonable to claim under the laws that apply in your area.
Information about how to find an attorney and legal information online for your state is available at the MeFi Wiki Get a lawyer page. A brief consultation with an attorney who is familiar with landlord/tenant law will likely help answer your questions quickly.
posted by Little Dawn at 9:05 AM on July 15, 2015
Information about how to find an attorney and legal information online for your state is available at the MeFi Wiki Get a lawyer page. A brief consultation with an attorney who is familiar with landlord/tenant law will likely help answer your questions quickly.
posted by Little Dawn at 9:05 AM on July 15, 2015
Every apartment I've rented has required me to patch any holes I made in the walls as part of the standard cleaning procedure, and it's usually been written into the lease.
This might be kind of obvious, but what does their lease say they're responsible for? Anything specifically mentioned?
posted by dinty_moore at 9:12 AM on July 15, 2015
This might be kind of obvious, but what does their lease say they're responsible for? Anything specifically mentioned?
posted by dinty_moore at 9:12 AM on July 15, 2015
For such a long rental, you'll need to keep in mind the concept of "useful life": household furnishings wear out after a certain amount of time, and that you should only charge for their replacement if they were replaced before the end of their useful life. Moreover, you should only charge the tenant for the fraction of the useful life that was unused.
For some examples: the city of Longmont, CO has a depreciation schedule in its landlord/tenant handbook (see p. 66). According to them, the useful life of carpeting is about 10 years; so that's your responsibility to replace, since its normal useful life had been used up. "Curtain rods and hardware" have a useful life of 8 years, so if the blinds were brand-new when the tenant moved in, you could charge for 1/4 (25%) of their cost to compensate for the 2 years of useful life you didn't get out of them. Similarly, "door and window hardware" has a useful life of 15 years, so if the screens were brand-new upon move-in, then you could charge for up to 3/5 (60%) of the cost to account for the 9 years you didn't get out of them.
You may find different opinions on how long the useful life of some of these items are, of course; consult your local rental advisory board and ask them if they have any advice about depreciation schedules.
posted by Johnny Assay at 9:13 AM on July 15, 2015
For some examples: the city of Longmont, CO has a depreciation schedule in its landlord/tenant handbook (see p. 66). According to them, the useful life of carpeting is about 10 years; so that's your responsibility to replace, since its normal useful life had been used up. "Curtain rods and hardware" have a useful life of 8 years, so if the blinds were brand-new when the tenant moved in, you could charge for 1/4 (25%) of their cost to compensate for the 2 years of useful life you didn't get out of them. Similarly, "door and window hardware" has a useful life of 15 years, so if the screens were brand-new upon move-in, then you could charge for up to 3/5 (60%) of the cost to account for the 9 years you didn't get out of them.
You may find different opinions on how long the useful life of some of these items are, of course; consult your local rental advisory board and ask them if they have any advice about depreciation schedules.
posted by Johnny Assay at 9:13 AM on July 15, 2015
Here is the law.
“Normal wear and tear” is defined by state law as: “that deterioration which
occurs based upon the use for which the rental unit is intended, without
negligence, carelessness, accident or abuse of the premises or equipment or
chattel by the tenant or members of his household or their invitee or guests,”
posted by Che boludo! at 9:15 AM on July 15, 2015
“Normal wear and tear” is defined by state law as: “that deterioration which
occurs based upon the use for which the rental unit is intended, without
negligence, carelessness, accident or abuse of the premises or equipment or
chattel by the tenant or members of his household or their invitee or guests,”
posted by Che boludo! at 9:15 AM on July 15, 2015
Of course you should check your local codes, but here's my sense as a tenant:
The cleaning and fixing holes in the wall are very standard things that tenants should expect to do upon moving out. As a tenant, I would absolutely expect to pay for these items upon moving out of an apartment if I didn't do them myself. Definitely take pictures and save receipts.
The screens and blinds also feel like fair deductions to me depending on their condition when the tenant moved in. If they were in perfect condition back then, I think you can deduct at least something here, because while some wear and tear is normal, failing to clean and pushing holes in a screen is not. If they were already in sort of bad shape when she moved in, I do not think it's fair to deduct. I would feel sort of annoyed as a tenant if I lost part of my deposit for these things, but if I'd caused the damage I wouldn't think it was the end of the world.
Repainting and replacing the carpet are probably not things I would deduct for, since they're likely things you'd end up needing to replace/redo between tenants anyway. The previous items may take up her whole deposit anyway, so it's sort of a moot point.
I'm not clear on the rent check. Is the check for a previous month when she occupied the unit or for late rent or anything like that? If it's clearly an error, void the check and don't cash it.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:24 AM on July 15, 2015
The cleaning and fixing holes in the wall are very standard things that tenants should expect to do upon moving out. As a tenant, I would absolutely expect to pay for these items upon moving out of an apartment if I didn't do them myself. Definitely take pictures and save receipts.
The screens and blinds also feel like fair deductions to me depending on their condition when the tenant moved in. If they were in perfect condition back then, I think you can deduct at least something here, because while some wear and tear is normal, failing to clean and pushing holes in a screen is not. If they were already in sort of bad shape when she moved in, I do not think it's fair to deduct. I would feel sort of annoyed as a tenant if I lost part of my deposit for these things, but if I'd caused the damage I wouldn't think it was the end of the world.
Repainting and replacing the carpet are probably not things I would deduct for, since they're likely things you'd end up needing to replace/redo between tenants anyway. The previous items may take up her whole deposit anyway, so it's sort of a moot point.
I'm not clear on the rent check. Is the check for a previous month when she occupied the unit or for late rent or anything like that? If it's clearly an error, void the check and don't cash it.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:24 AM on July 15, 2015
A 10-year old carpet has probably reached the life expectancy set by the manufacturer. I'd check on that first, but don't think it would be fair to charge for carpet expenses for carpet that old.
posted by megancita at 9:29 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by megancita at 9:29 AM on July 15, 2015
I am a landlord. I own several properties. Every state is different, and I am not in your state. That said, these things rarely go to court, and in reality, it is a matter of negotiation.
I am also a business owner in my small town. For the sake of my business, I do want to create bad blood between former tenants and myself. Going forward, you should spell out exact costs in your lease, and how and when the security deposit will be used.
Personally, I think blinds, window damage, hole repair, and general cleaning are all perfectly legit. Paint on the wall and carpet should be general wear and tear.
But, what you need to do is talk to this person. You talk to the person - not a lawyer. Do not hire a lawyer unless you need one, they are expensive. (Ask Mefi's default answer to so many questions is hire a lawyer).
You need to write out your expected expenses, and meet with your former tenant. Get them to understand that there is a reason the law allows landlords to hold a security deposit. Explain to them that you want to be fair, and negotiate an agreement that you both can live with. Then get the tenant to sign something saying that they understand x amount is being kept for x,y,z items, and that they received back y amount as remainder of the deposit.
There is no formula answer to your question. Hiring a lawyer is ridiculous waste of money advice. You are not going to be sued in court over this. You need to come to an agreement person-to-person, talk it out and resolve it.
posted by Flood at 9:33 AM on July 15, 2015
I am also a business owner in my small town. For the sake of my business, I do want to create bad blood between former tenants and myself. Going forward, you should spell out exact costs in your lease, and how and when the security deposit will be used.
Personally, I think blinds, window damage, hole repair, and general cleaning are all perfectly legit. Paint on the wall and carpet should be general wear and tear.
But, what you need to do is talk to this person. You talk to the person - not a lawyer. Do not hire a lawyer unless you need one, they are expensive. (Ask Mefi's default answer to so many questions is hire a lawyer).
You need to write out your expected expenses, and meet with your former tenant. Get them to understand that there is a reason the law allows landlords to hold a security deposit. Explain to them that you want to be fair, and negotiate an agreement that you both can live with. Then get the tenant to sign something saying that they understand x amount is being kept for x,y,z items, and that they received back y amount as remainder of the deposit.
There is no formula answer to your question. Hiring a lawyer is ridiculous waste of money advice. You are not going to be sued in court over this. You need to come to an agreement person-to-person, talk it out and resolve it.
posted by Flood at 9:33 AM on July 15, 2015
There may be local or county laws that also apply, so this may not be a complete answer, but according to the Colorado Attorney General's Office:
posted by Little Dawn at 9:41 AM on July 15, 2015
C.R.S. 38-12-103 regulates the return of security deposits. The statute requires that a landlord return a security deposit within one month after the lease has been terminated or the surrender of the premises, whichever occurs last, unless a longer time has been specified in the lease (not longer than 60 days). The landlord may retain part of the security deposit for damages, however he or she may not retain any of the deposit for normal wear and tear.This is not legal advice and is not intended to provide a definitive answer to your questions. To obtain legal advice, you can consult with a lawyer. Consulting with a lawyer doesn't have to be a significant expense, because the answers may be relatively straightforward and may also be helpful for revising your lease and handling these issues in the future. There may be legal clinics open to the public in your area that offer brief consultations, and you may be able to get a free consultation from an attorney who wants to promote their services to landlords, so they can be the first lawyer called if you need help in the future with things like an eviction. An ounce of prevention may be worth a pound of cure in situations like this.
If a landlord believes there is cause to retain part of the deposit a written notice must be given to the tenant listing the exact reasons for the retention of the deposit or the portion. The landlord must send the notice and return the portion of the deposit that will not be retained to the tenant's last known address.
If the landlord fails to provide the notice during the specified time outlined above, the landlord forfeits his right to retain any portion of the deposit. If the landlord unlawfully retains any portion of the security the deposit, the tenant may have the right to sue for triple damages in small claims court.
posted by Little Dawn at 9:41 AM on July 15, 2015
Hiring cleaners and the damaged blinds should definitely be her responsibility.
The IRS guidelines allow a landlord to depreciate carpet in a rental on a 5-year cycle. As 10-year-old carpet, it's beyond that and likely at the end of the manufacturer's lifetime.
As a data point, the last apartment I rented counted repainting as 'normal wear and tear' for any tenancy 3 years or longer. Any pushpin-sized holes I'd probably include in prep for repainting.
If the only damage to the window sills is to the paint, then include that in repainting.
I'm on the fence about the screens - the fiberglass screens were at least 10 years old in my house when I moved in and basically disintegrated if you touched them.
posted by bookdragoness at 9:42 AM on July 15, 2015
The IRS guidelines allow a landlord to depreciate carpet in a rental on a 5-year cycle. As 10-year-old carpet, it's beyond that and likely at the end of the manufacturer's lifetime.
As a data point, the last apartment I rented counted repainting as 'normal wear and tear' for any tenancy 3 years or longer. Any pushpin-sized holes I'd probably include in prep for repainting.
If the only damage to the window sills is to the paint, then include that in repainting.
I'm on the fence about the screens - the fiberglass screens were at least 10 years old in my house when I moved in and basically disintegrated if you touched them.
posted by bookdragoness at 9:42 AM on July 15, 2015
Is it fair to deduct anything for replacing the carpet and repainting?
Not after six years, no. The carpet wasn't new when she moved in.
posted by soelo at 9:43 AM on July 15, 2015
Not after six years, no. The carpet wasn't new when she moved in.
posted by soelo at 9:43 AM on July 15, 2015
The idea that you are willing to actually count the number of small holes in the wall makes it sound like you are really taking the sleazy landlord approach here. I would be very disappointed in a landlord who tried to do that to me. I think you need to really reevaluate your expectations here.
posted by grog at 9:56 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by grog at 9:56 AM on July 15, 2015
If your painters routinely fill the small holes in the walls, I would not deduct for those.
Also, as the owner of a rental, I'd think you'd expect to repaint for each new tenant, and to recarpet after ten years (although high-quality hard floors would be easier to clean and maybe last longer, I don't know).
posted by amtho at 9:56 AM on July 15, 2015
Also, as the owner of a rental, I'd think you'd expect to repaint for each new tenant, and to recarpet after ten years (although high-quality hard floors would be easier to clean and maybe last longer, I don't know).
posted by amtho at 9:56 AM on July 15, 2015
It sounds like over 6 years you did zero maintenance, and now you want to deduct for that. Who are you kidding?
Deduct for cleaning.
Screens, fixtures (ex: blinds get replaced every 4 to 6 years, generally), painting and wall prep (spackling nail holes, scraping & sanding peeling paint), replacing the carpet (10 years my jurisdiction, check yours) are ALL your responsibility.
Return this person's deposit minus the cleaning AND the erroneous rent check (she's moved out and you don't know what to do with a check her bank likely sent you in error? really??) and be done with this.
Next time, do yearly inspections and keep painting, carpet cleaning, and general maintenance tasks up to date so that the condition of your property doesn't shock you. You own it. You're supposed to maintain it.
Wear and tear is much higher in units where you do not provide general maintenance. That's a fact.
Source: former landlord.
posted by jbenben at 9:58 AM on July 15, 2015
Deduct for cleaning.
Screens, fixtures (ex: blinds get replaced every 4 to 6 years, generally), painting and wall prep (spackling nail holes, scraping & sanding peeling paint), replacing the carpet (10 years my jurisdiction, check yours) are ALL your responsibility.
Return this person's deposit minus the cleaning AND the erroneous rent check (she's moved out and you don't know what to do with a check her bank likely sent you in error? really??) and be done with this.
Next time, do yearly inspections and keep painting, carpet cleaning, and general maintenance tasks up to date so that the condition of your property doesn't shock you. You own it. You're supposed to maintain it.
Wear and tear is much higher in units where you do not provide general maintenance. That's a fact.
Source: former landlord.
posted by jbenben at 9:58 AM on July 15, 2015
Seconding what jbenben said.
Also, if you're not charging enough in rent to cover the costs of maintenance, you should adjust that for your next tenant. Maintenance, and routine wear and tear are not what the security deposit is for. Normal homeowner costs should be covered by rent - they are not the responsibility of the renter.
posted by mercredi at 10:00 AM on July 15, 2015
Also, if you're not charging enough in rent to cover the costs of maintenance, you should adjust that for your next tenant. Maintenance, and routine wear and tear are not what the security deposit is for. Normal homeowner costs should be covered by rent - they are not the responsibility of the renter.
posted by mercredi at 10:00 AM on July 15, 2015
Every apartment I've rented has required me to patch any holes I made in the walls as part of the standard cleaning procedure, and it's usually been written into the lease.
The cleaning and fixing holes in the wall are very standard things that tenants should expect to do upon moving out.
A different answer: in NYC at least, I've only ever seen that stipulated in one lease I've signed, and I've always heard nail holes from pictures held up as a classic example of what is considered normal wear and tear, and thus the landlord's responsibility. Holes larger than nail holes are reasonably the tenant's responsibility, but if I were the tenant and a landlord was trying to charge me to spackle nail holes in an apartment I had lived in for 6 years, I would totally push back.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:08 AM on July 15, 2015
The cleaning and fixing holes in the wall are very standard things that tenants should expect to do upon moving out.
A different answer: in NYC at least, I've only ever seen that stipulated in one lease I've signed, and I've always heard nail holes from pictures held up as a classic example of what is considered normal wear and tear, and thus the landlord's responsibility. Holes larger than nail holes are reasonably the tenant's responsibility, but if I were the tenant and a landlord was trying to charge me to spackle nail holes in an apartment I had lived in for 6 years, I would totally push back.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:08 AM on July 15, 2015
I generally agree with those above who say that replacing the carpet and re-painting would be considered "usual wear and tear" remediation that landlords are 100% responsible for after 6+ years in every place I've rented. The cleaning cost is a bit of gray area, I think, and I'd definitely take lots of pictures to document the filth in case the tenant disputes this in small-claims court. I think this Nolo list of regular wear-and-tear versus actual damage is a useful document for gauging whether your expectations are reasonable, as well as the Longmont depreciation guide someone else linked to above.
IANAL but I have been a Colorado tenant with a parent who was a landlord in Denver for years, and I'd like to particularly underline what Little Dawn pointed out above: Colorado has treble-damages protection for tenants whose landlords withhold security deposits without meeting various documentation requirements. That means that in the worst-case scenario (where you withhold her entire security deposit and don't provide her with the appropriate documentation within the required time frame, which as I recall is 30 days), you are setting yourself up to potentially lose $2400 and not just the $800 deposit. If you are going to withhold any of the deposit make sure you do it correctly so you don't end up more in the hole than you already are.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:44 AM on July 15, 2015
IANAL but I have been a Colorado tenant with a parent who was a landlord in Denver for years, and I'd like to particularly underline what Little Dawn pointed out above: Colorado has treble-damages protection for tenants whose landlords withhold security deposits without meeting various documentation requirements. That means that in the worst-case scenario (where you withhold her entire security deposit and don't provide her with the appropriate documentation within the required time frame, which as I recall is 30 days), you are setting yourself up to potentially lose $2400 and not just the $800 deposit. If you are going to withhold any of the deposit make sure you do it correctly so you don't end up more in the hole than you already are.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:44 AM on July 15, 2015
Nail holes also strike me as a textbook example of normal wear and tear. Think of it this way, is it normal for tenants to hang things with nails or pins? Sure, and it's not something that happens through negligence or fault. It then seems to follow that repairing those holes are the landlord's responsibility to patch, unless the lease says differently.
posted by craven_morhead at 10:44 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by craven_morhead at 10:44 AM on July 15, 2015
Cleaning as well as screens and blinds damaged to that degree are the only areas where I'd feel OK charging something (full charge for cleaning and partial for screen and blind damage if they were in new condition when you rented the place out). The rest is pretty iffy. Consider putting more detail into your lease and move-in/move-out inspection requirements if you want to put certain condition responsibilities on your renter. It's also advisable to do a yearly walk-through to check on conditions and damage even if you continue to renew the lease.
posted by quince at 10:45 AM on July 15, 2015
posted by quince at 10:45 AM on July 15, 2015
As a landlord: The carpet and the paint is probably on you. In every list I've ever looked at, paint has at most a 5 year lifespan and carpet has at most a 10 year lifespan. So replacing them falls under normal wear and tear. Of course, you should check your local law and the standards that they enforce (but typically, it's about how fast you deduct it).
Is the place generally clean? Does it just need a deep cleaning or is it gross all over? I generally do not charge my tenants if my cleaner takes 2 hours or less. If it's over 2 hours, I charge them for the whole thing because it means that it's pretty filthy. But that's my personal choice. I feel that you are entitled to charge the whole thing if you'd like.
Window sills and window screens may or may not fall under normal wear and tear. Look it up.
You sound like you want the tenant to maintain the house, but that's not how it works. It's the landlord's job to pay for the house maintenance, and yes, that means new carpets and new paint, fixing the furnace, replacing the water heater, etc. etc. All these costs should be factored into the cost of rent already, and if it is not, you need to raise the rent this time around.
posted by ethidda at 10:52 AM on July 15, 2015
Is the place generally clean? Does it just need a deep cleaning or is it gross all over? I generally do not charge my tenants if my cleaner takes 2 hours or less. If it's over 2 hours, I charge them for the whole thing because it means that it's pretty filthy. But that's my personal choice. I feel that you are entitled to charge the whole thing if you'd like.
Window sills and window screens may or may not fall under normal wear and tear. Look it up.
You sound like you want the tenant to maintain the house, but that's not how it works. It's the landlord's job to pay for the house maintenance, and yes, that means new carpets and new paint, fixing the furnace, replacing the water heater, etc. etc. All these costs should be factored into the cost of rent already, and if it is not, you need to raise the rent this time around.
posted by ethidda at 10:52 AM on July 15, 2015
Screens, fixtures (ex: blinds get replaced every 4 to 6 years, generally)
What? No. I have screens and blinds that are decades old and are nearly pristine (well, the blinds could stand a bit of cleaning, but they work just fine). Unless the screens were damaged by hail or some other natural phenomenon, both should come out of the deposit.
I'm also a former landlord, and the short answer is: your list is just fine.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:58 AM on July 15, 2015
What? No. I have screens and blinds that are decades old and are nearly pristine (well, the blinds could stand a bit of cleaning, but they work just fine). Unless the screens were damaged by hail or some other natural phenomenon, both should come out of the deposit.
I'm also a former landlord, and the short answer is: your list is just fine.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:58 AM on July 15, 2015
In some areas a security deposit cannot be used for cleaning. The landlord is required to specify a cleaning fee or cleaning deposit separate from the security deposit. If none is specified, then cleaning cannot come out of the security deposit.
And, as mentioned above, in some jurisdictions landlords are required to repaint and/or replace carpet after specified periods.
So you need to see if the laws governing the location of your unit say anything beyond "wear and tear" so you don't keep something you're not legally entitled to. If you can't figure it out on your own, then you should consult a lawyer if the cost of that is less than you want to withhold.
My opinion only, I think charging to replace a ten-year-old carpet and repaint walls that haven't been painted in at least six years is absurd. If a landlord tried to charge me for that I'd fight it all the way. Same with cleaning after six years. That's just the cost of doing business (unless a cleaning fee was specified).
A decent paint job should include pre-cleaning of walls as part of the prep, and also include patching of minor holes such as tack and nail holes. Really, unless you have knock-down texture or some other hard-to-patch surface texture filling even 100 tack holes is nothing.
You should only charge for things that are actually damaged, and only within what the law allows. Going forward you should maintain and inspect more frequently as advised in an earlier comment.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 11:05 AM on July 15, 2015
And, as mentioned above, in some jurisdictions landlords are required to repaint and/or replace carpet after specified periods.
So you need to see if the laws governing the location of your unit say anything beyond "wear and tear" so you don't keep something you're not legally entitled to. If you can't figure it out on your own, then you should consult a lawyer if the cost of that is less than you want to withhold.
My opinion only, I think charging to replace a ten-year-old carpet and repaint walls that haven't been painted in at least six years is absurd. If a landlord tried to charge me for that I'd fight it all the way. Same with cleaning after six years. That's just the cost of doing business (unless a cleaning fee was specified).
A decent paint job should include pre-cleaning of walls as part of the prep, and also include patching of minor holes such as tack and nail holes. Really, unless you have knock-down texture or some other hard-to-patch surface texture filling even 100 tack holes is nothing.
You should only charge for things that are actually damaged, and only within what the law allows. Going forward you should maintain and inspect more frequently as advised in an earlier comment.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 11:05 AM on July 15, 2015
Here's a couple of examples of not normal wear and tear:
Divorcing couple has argument; husband kicks through bedroom door, wife breaks bedroom window to get out.
Partying students decide to rappel off deck from railing; railing gives way (fortunately everyone is okay).
posted by warriorqueen at 11:27 AM on July 15, 2015
Divorcing couple has argument; husband kicks through bedroom door, wife breaks bedroom window to get out.
Partying students decide to rappel off deck from railing; railing gives way (fortunately everyone is okay).
posted by warriorqueen at 11:27 AM on July 15, 2015
We were tenants in a place for 7 years with small children and pets and a landlord tried to keep our security deposit for carpets, paint and blinds among other things. We took that landlord to small claims get our deposit back and won.
As a landlord, this is how I would evaluate the situation. Every time you turn over a tenant, there is a cost associated with that, even if the tenant scrubs the hell out of the place and leaves it pristine. There's the time vacant, fixing the "normal wear and tear" damage, advertising, leasing costs. With twelve month leases, you should be prepared to bear those costs every year and those costs should be part of your annual budget. Since your tenant renewed for six years, you have been able to avoid six years of those costs. Add those costs to the amount that should be in your annual budget for standard maintenance for the past six years and see how they compare to your cost to refresh the place for a new tenant. You'll probably find out that your still coming out ahead.
posted by rekrap at 11:48 AM on July 15, 2015
As a landlord, this is how I would evaluate the situation. Every time you turn over a tenant, there is a cost associated with that, even if the tenant scrubs the hell out of the place and leaves it pristine. There's the time vacant, fixing the "normal wear and tear" damage, advertising, leasing costs. With twelve month leases, you should be prepared to bear those costs every year and those costs should be part of your annual budget. Since your tenant renewed for six years, you have been able to avoid six years of those costs. Add those costs to the amount that should be in your annual budget for standard maintenance for the past six years and see how they compare to your cost to refresh the place for a new tenant. You'll probably find out that your still coming out ahead.
posted by rekrap at 11:48 AM on July 15, 2015
From your list:
Charging for fridge, oven and fireplace cleaning sounds insane to me, unless she truly left them shockingly filthy (like to the point where if you were visiting a friend's house and saw their appliances in that state, you'd be appalled and maybe even comment on it). Especially after 6 years of use, do you really think it's "negligence, carelessness, accident or abuse" to have dirty appliances??
That goes for all the cleaning in general, though to a lesser degree. Unless she did something really bad like leave piles of garbage around, unplug the fridge so it gets moldy, or otherwise do anything besides "not clean to your standards". Without pictures, we can't really say whether it's bad enough to warrant charging. The fact that you're mentioning scuffs and fingerprints on the walls (and plan to count the number of pin-pricks) suggests to me that your standards are quite high and/or you have a grudge of some kind against this tenant. Possible exception if your rental agreement specifies that the apartment and appliances need to be spotless when leaving.
Blinds and screens might be reasonable, depending on the extent of the damage and how reparable it is (do "bent and filthy" blinds really need replacement, or just repair and cleaning? are the screen holes from someone putting a fist through it, or tiny ones that can happen without a big accident? )
Window sills not reasonable. If water comes in when it rains, that's a landlord thing you need to deal with. I'd be shocked if paint hadn't peeled after 6 years, no matter how careful you are to close all the windows (can you honestly say you've never left your own windows open in the rain in the last 6 years?). Having windows open is a pretty normal part of window use.
As others have covered, pin-pricks and nail holes (and paint chips, and anything else that painters will take care of) should not be charged after 6 years (presumably) without you repainting in that entire time! Paint doesn't last forever, you would have needed repainting anyway. Big holes (like 1/2 inch or more) and similar damage should be charged, though.
Based on this, she should get the vast majority of her 800$ back, unless she left major biological hazards in the house that warranted professional deep cleaning.
posted by randomnity at 11:53 AM on July 15, 2015
Charging for fridge, oven and fireplace cleaning sounds insane to me, unless she truly left them shockingly filthy (like to the point where if you were visiting a friend's house and saw their appliances in that state, you'd be appalled and maybe even comment on it). Especially after 6 years of use, do you really think it's "negligence, carelessness, accident or abuse" to have dirty appliances??
That goes for all the cleaning in general, though to a lesser degree. Unless she did something really bad like leave piles of garbage around, unplug the fridge so it gets moldy, or otherwise do anything besides "not clean to your standards". Without pictures, we can't really say whether it's bad enough to warrant charging. The fact that you're mentioning scuffs and fingerprints on the walls (and plan to count the number of pin-pricks) suggests to me that your standards are quite high and/or you have a grudge of some kind against this tenant. Possible exception if your rental agreement specifies that the apartment and appliances need to be spotless when leaving.
Blinds and screens might be reasonable, depending on the extent of the damage and how reparable it is (do "bent and filthy" blinds really need replacement, or just repair and cleaning? are the screen holes from someone putting a fist through it, or tiny ones that can happen without a big accident? )
Window sills not reasonable. If water comes in when it rains, that's a landlord thing you need to deal with. I'd be shocked if paint hadn't peeled after 6 years, no matter how careful you are to close all the windows (can you honestly say you've never left your own windows open in the rain in the last 6 years?). Having windows open is a pretty normal part of window use.
As others have covered, pin-pricks and nail holes (and paint chips, and anything else that painters will take care of) should not be charged after 6 years (presumably) without you repainting in that entire time! Paint doesn't last forever, you would have needed repainting anyway. Big holes (like 1/2 inch or more) and similar damage should be charged, though.
Based on this, she should get the vast majority of her 800$ back, unless she left major biological hazards in the house that warranted professional deep cleaning.
posted by randomnity at 11:53 AM on July 15, 2015
As I read this I'm wondering if you were difficult to get a hold of during those 6 years or absentee? I'm a renter in New York and I've been in my apartment for 8+ years. My landlady lives on site so we communicate on the regular. They are fully aware of general wear and tear and I make sure they know about things that could come back on me. I absolutely consider the flooring and the sills and the screens normal wear and tear and they have never implied otherwise.
When the screens started to disintegrate to the point that squirrels were hopping inside the apt in search of a snack I said to my landlady - hey - my screens are broken. She said I will pay for the supplies if you fix them yourself. She considered the screens her responsibility but she's an elderly woman so it would have been hard for her to do. Worked for me.
When I said to the landlady's son - hey - the linoleum in the kitchen is cracking and peeling and I'm worried that the sub flooring will get damaged or something. He took a look and said - yeah okay. And every time he comes to fix something more urgent he promises me he'll get to it. I'm not holding my breath but when he does eventually replace the flooring - I'm not going to be billed for that. I'm just hoping I get some halfway decent tile out of it - something f'ing durable.
When the kitchen window sills (which were already in bad shape) started to get even more warped from the weather - I said to my landlady's son - this doesn't look so good. He took a look at the sills and he said - ok - thanks for letting me know - if it gets worse we'll do something about it. In no way have they ever implied that the sills were my responsibility to fix. Sometimes you just can't plan for the weather.
I mean not everyone can be such a perfect tenant as myself ;) but unless you manage 100's or 1000's of apartments I wonder how these things could be such a surprise. It implies to me that you weren't too involved in the maintenance of the apt these past 6 years.
posted by rdnnyc at 1:23 PM on July 15, 2015
When the screens started to disintegrate to the point that squirrels were hopping inside the apt in search of a snack I said to my landlady - hey - my screens are broken. She said I will pay for the supplies if you fix them yourself. She considered the screens her responsibility but she's an elderly woman so it would have been hard for her to do. Worked for me.
When I said to the landlady's son - hey - the linoleum in the kitchen is cracking and peeling and I'm worried that the sub flooring will get damaged or something. He took a look and said - yeah okay. And every time he comes to fix something more urgent he promises me he'll get to it. I'm not holding my breath but when he does eventually replace the flooring - I'm not going to be billed for that. I'm just hoping I get some halfway decent tile out of it - something f'ing durable.
When the kitchen window sills (which were already in bad shape) started to get even more warped from the weather - I said to my landlady's son - this doesn't look so good. He took a look at the sills and he said - ok - thanks for letting me know - if it gets worse we'll do something about it. In no way have they ever implied that the sills were my responsibility to fix. Sometimes you just can't plan for the weather.
I mean not everyone can be such a perfect tenant as myself ;) but unless you manage 100's or 1000's of apartments I wonder how these things could be such a surprise. It implies to me that you weren't too involved in the maintenance of the apt these past 6 years.
posted by rdnnyc at 1:23 PM on July 15, 2015
It baffles me to hear so many people suggest that yes, you should bill for the cost of cleaning. In my jurisdiction landlords are 100% NOT ALLOWED to do this. Dirt is not damage and cannot be deducted from a damage deposit. If, once the cleaning is done, there are stains and tears that can't be cleaned away - THAT is damage and can be deducted.
Just one more voice saying you have to learn your local legal responsibilities, as they vary wildly.
posted by arcticwoman at 2:13 PM on July 15, 2015
Just one more voice saying you have to learn your local legal responsibilities, as they vary wildly.
posted by arcticwoman at 2:13 PM on July 15, 2015
Another consideration: some places the landlord can charge for cleaning only if they'd done a walk-through with the renter before they moved in.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:14 PM on July 15, 2015
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:14 PM on July 15, 2015
Nail holes are normal and expected, unless there are a lot of them. The tiny holes that are described sound like thumbtacks or pushpins for things mounted by or for the kids. They are not normal but the effort and cost to fill them in as part of the repainting process is negligible. You will of course have to repaint. I would not bother with the pinholes.
(After review - that point was made above as well)
posted by megatherium at 5:48 PM on July 15, 2015
(After review - that point was made above as well)
posted by megatherium at 5:48 PM on July 15, 2015
200+ holes and she hung curtains and shelves in several places. I'd say that was excessive and the only reason I counted them. The painter estimated it would take a couple hours to fill them all.
posted by Che boludo! at 9:58 AM on July 17, 2015
posted by Che boludo! at 9:58 AM on July 17, 2015
Were the curtains hung in places that traditionally have curtains, e.g. windows to cover blinds? That seems like a reasonable thing to want to have. But if they were hung... uh... I can't think of where else a curtain might be placed, but if some odd places was where they were hung, then maybe charge her for the few minutes it'll take a painter to slap some spackle on them.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:15 AM on July 17, 2015
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:15 AM on July 17, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
You're using the term "normal wear and tear" - those are the things you SHOULDN'T deduct from a security deposit. Those things will happen no matter how careful a tenant is, and fixing them up is just the cost of being a landlord. Same with cleaning the apartment - if you are replacing carpet and painting anyway, it will need to be cleaned up a bit when the workers are done even if it were spotless now. So don't charge for cleaning.
Things like the broken screens and window blinds, if they need to be replaced, should come out of the deposit, but based on your descriptions, that's about it.
posted by trivia genius at 8:52 AM on July 15, 2015