I fought the law and the law won; the education edition. What now?
May 19, 2015 4:25 PM Subscribe
Last week was a tough week. I had midterms which weren't going well, I lost my wallet, and I was extremely stressed out. The combination of these factors and an absurd series of events ended with me being arrested for refusing to leave my university library. I'm still processing how this is even possible. I want to know what my rights are and how bad this situation is?
Here's the story of how I was arrested for refusing to leave the library:
My school has a policy to check student ID cards after 11pm during midterms or final weeks (when the library is open 24hrs). As somebody who spends most my time in the library, I'm familiar with the policy. I have been in the library dozens of times for this weird ritual, and it's never been a problem before.
So when the student officer did her rounds I explained my situation to her. I told her I'm a student and can log on to our campus website and billing center to prove it. Then, I logged on to show her. She was arrogant and obviously powerhungry though, and completely ignored me. She nsisted that a student ID was the only way to prove I was a student and stay in the library. I explained to her again that I didn't have it because I lost my wallet, and that I was still definitely a student. I tried to reason with her without luck.
"Either leave the library or I'll call the campus police," she threatened me. In shock, I gently asked her if she was serious to which she responded, "Fine. I'll call them."
About 30 minutes later three police officers came to talk to me. I explained to them that I was a student (proving it online) and that I had nowhere to go to finish my exam. They said, "We believe you, but we don't make up the rules. We tried to tell them. The library has its policies and we can't change that." At this point, there were about 300+ people around me watching the scene unfold. I told them I understood but didn't think it was right. I asked what compelled them to blindly follow policies - especially such absurd ones - and if the policy said to kill me would they? Unsure what to do, they sat around for 30 minutes waiting for their boss to show up. He arrived with two other police officers to order me to leave the library. Again, I explained the situation proving I was a student. He said he believed me but that I had to leave anyway because of the library's policy. I think my brain short circuted at this point by how absurd and illogical this was. I was also thinking of my grandparents who suffered under similar blindly followed policies at the hands of authorities in suits. I refused to leave. I said that I was shocked and couldn't believe they'd actually arrest me.
Well, sure enough, they arrested me. I was stripped of all my belongings and searched, then put in jail for three hours while they processed and booked me for trespassing 602(0)PC. I'm still kind of in shock by the whole situation, but I guess they gave me fair warning.
At the time, I felt like a mix between "The Stranger's" Mersault and a Rosa Parks. It was absurd and important all at the same time. And, with 500 pairs of eyes on me, I felt like I had no choice. The situation struck me as everything wrong with our university. It was bureaucratic policies like these, passed from the top down and enforced by unconscious creatures, that destroyed education.
What should I do now? I have a meeting with the dean and a court date for two months from now. A huge number of my friends think this is ridiculous, my parents are confused, and I'm caught awkwardly in-between. That being said, I understand the whole "pick your battles" concept. Given the choice between this and other, more significant causes I'd obviously have not picked. I didn't have a choice though, so seems to be my battle - even if it's an absurd and insignificant one.
Obviously, I will need to meet with an attorney. I just want to get some outside perspective before.
Here's the story of how I was arrested for refusing to leave the library:
My school has a policy to check student ID cards after 11pm during midterms or final weeks (when the library is open 24hrs). As somebody who spends most my time in the library, I'm familiar with the policy. I have been in the library dozens of times for this weird ritual, and it's never been a problem before.
So when the student officer did her rounds I explained my situation to her. I told her I'm a student and can log on to our campus website and billing center to prove it. Then, I logged on to show her. She was arrogant and obviously powerhungry though, and completely ignored me. She nsisted that a student ID was the only way to prove I was a student and stay in the library. I explained to her again that I didn't have it because I lost my wallet, and that I was still definitely a student. I tried to reason with her without luck.
"Either leave the library or I'll call the campus police," she threatened me. In shock, I gently asked her if she was serious to which she responded, "Fine. I'll call them."
About 30 minutes later three police officers came to talk to me. I explained to them that I was a student (proving it online) and that I had nowhere to go to finish my exam. They said, "We believe you, but we don't make up the rules. We tried to tell them. The library has its policies and we can't change that." At this point, there were about 300+ people around me watching the scene unfold. I told them I understood but didn't think it was right. I asked what compelled them to blindly follow policies - especially such absurd ones - and if the policy said to kill me would they? Unsure what to do, they sat around for 30 minutes waiting for their boss to show up. He arrived with two other police officers to order me to leave the library. Again, I explained the situation proving I was a student. He said he believed me but that I had to leave anyway because of the library's policy. I think my brain short circuted at this point by how absurd and illogical this was. I was also thinking of my grandparents who suffered under similar blindly followed policies at the hands of authorities in suits. I refused to leave. I said that I was shocked and couldn't believe they'd actually arrest me.
Well, sure enough, they arrested me. I was stripped of all my belongings and searched, then put in jail for three hours while they processed and booked me for trespassing 602(0)PC. I'm still kind of in shock by the whole situation, but I guess they gave me fair warning.
At the time, I felt like a mix between "The Stranger's" Mersault and a Rosa Parks. It was absurd and important all at the same time. And, with 500 pairs of eyes on me, I felt like I had no choice. The situation struck me as everything wrong with our university. It was bureaucratic policies like these, passed from the top down and enforced by unconscious creatures, that destroyed education.
What should I do now? I have a meeting with the dean and a court date for two months from now. A huge number of my friends think this is ridiculous, my parents are confused, and I'm caught awkwardly in-between. That being said, I understand the whole "pick your battles" concept. Given the choice between this and other, more significant causes I'd obviously have not picked. I didn't have a choice though, so seems to be my battle - even if it's an absurd and insignificant one.
Obviously, I will need to meet with an attorney. I just want to get some outside perspective before.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's request -- restless_nomad
Good grief. I'm not sure what your rights are here, but I am so sorry this happened to you. What an absolute load of crap. Without knowing the jurisdiction you are in and statute you were charged under, I can't say for certain what will happen from here, but I suspect trespassing is a misdemeanor and given these facts you'll probably get out of this with no worse than a fine, and in the best case, a dismissal. My gut feeling is that no county court is going to want to waste time with crap like this.
The former hell-raiser in me wants to tell you to stand your ground when you talk to the dean, but of course that's the dangerous play. The safer route is to be apologetic, explain the lost wallet, how you logged in to the registrar's website, the stress of finals, etc. Again, I'm so sorry. Wow.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 4:37 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The former hell-raiser in me wants to tell you to stand your ground when you talk to the dean, but of course that's the dangerous play. The safer route is to be apologetic, explain the lost wallet, how you logged in to the registrar's website, the stress of finals, etc. Again, I'm so sorry. Wow.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 4:37 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The difference between having a lawyer and not is the difference between having a criminal record and having it dismissed or reduced to the equivalent of a speeding ticket because everyone has better things to do.
My outside perspective is that the people to reason with weren't the student officer or the police officers but whoever supervises the student officer/the librarians. Once the police had been called, the situation was already out of your control.
posted by deanc at 4:37 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
My outside perspective is that the people to reason with weren't the student officer or the police officers but whoever supervises the student officer/the librarians. Once the police had been called, the situation was already out of your control.
posted by deanc at 4:37 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm so sorry this happened. This is terrible.
You may want to ask the mods to anonymize this.
posted by sockermom at 4:37 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
You may want to ask the mods to anonymize this.
posted by sockermom at 4:37 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had nowhere to go to finish my exam.
Can you explain this part a little more? Were you doing a take-home exam that you were required to take in the library, or what? Were you able to finish the exam?
posted by merejane at 4:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can you explain this part a little more? Were you doing a take-home exam that you were required to take in the library, or what? Were you able to finish the exam?
posted by merejane at 4:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Another eponysterical ask!
Talk to your dean, explain with contrition what happened, and prostrate yourself before them for forgiveness. I don't know if they will have the power or the inclination to drop charges, but it will at least keep you in school.
Failing that, according to this, if you're in California (as googling the criminal code suggests), if you can prove that you had the right to be on the property, then you may be able to defend your case.
I would start by finding the library's written policy on proving that you're a student. If it just says that someone "must be a student" or something like that, then there you go. You'd also establish precedent to get the library to enforce sensible enforcement of their own policy.
And, dude, this is not a civil right issue. Students with missing IDs are not an oppressed class of people, nor are people who make a scene at the library during finals.
posted by cmoj at 4:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
Talk to your dean, explain with contrition what happened, and prostrate yourself before them for forgiveness. I don't know if they will have the power or the inclination to drop charges, but it will at least keep you in school.
Failing that, according to this, if you're in California (as googling the criminal code suggests), if you can prove that you had the right to be on the property, then you may be able to defend your case.
I would start by finding the library's written policy on proving that you're a student. If it just says that someone "must be a student" or something like that, then there you go. You'd also establish precedent to get the library to enforce sensible enforcement of their own policy.
And, dude, this is not a civil right issue. Students with missing IDs are not an oppressed class of people, nor are people who make a scene at the library during finals.
posted by cmoj at 4:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm very, very sorry. What a horrid experience. My advice:
1. Breathe deeply. Think of what is good in your life. Do something you find restful.
2. Once you feel calmer, go get your ID replaced. Get all the other wallet stuff replaced too, and make any notifications (e.g. credit cards) you haven't yet.
3. Yes, a calm sympathetic lawyer is a good idea, both for the Dean's office visit and the court appearance. I think you should apologize sincerely for not leaving the library when told to do so, but I also think it is fair to ask the Dean, for one, to look into how to help a student whose ID is stolen/lost and who has to meet academic expectations and 2) this librarian's very inappropriate response to your situation. I also think you might ask about the ID checking policy too, just to find out why it is.
4. If you need more time from any of your profs, calmly explain your loss of ID/lack of full library access and ask for some accommodation.
posted by bearwife at 4:39 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
1. Breathe deeply. Think of what is good in your life. Do something you find restful.
2. Once you feel calmer, go get your ID replaced. Get all the other wallet stuff replaced too, and make any notifications (e.g. credit cards) you haven't yet.
3. Yes, a calm sympathetic lawyer is a good idea, both for the Dean's office visit and the court appearance. I think you should apologize sincerely for not leaving the library when told to do so, but I also think it is fair to ask the Dean, for one, to look into how to help a student whose ID is stolen/lost and who has to meet academic expectations and 2) this librarian's very inappropriate response to your situation. I also think you might ask about the ID checking policy too, just to find out why it is.
4. If you need more time from any of your profs, calmly explain your loss of ID/lack of full library access and ask for some accommodation.
posted by bearwife at 4:39 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a good policy, not a bad one. Because it takes the pressure off of the random students or librarians whose job it is to check IDs, and they should not be the people who the pressure is put on. They should not have to deal with every person trying to convince them that they're a student, and deciding what is enough evidence and what isn't, and making a judgment call. Making that their job is really shitty. The rule is you have to have your ID -- you say that. You didn't. You should have left.
Get a lawyer, and work on how to apologize profusely, because as I see it you were in the wrong both legally and morally here.
posted by brainmouse at 4:42 PM on May 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
Get a lawyer, and work on how to apologize profusely, because as I see it you were in the wrong both legally and morally here.
posted by brainmouse at 4:42 PM on May 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
In addition to the good advice so far, I'd recommend forgetting and never mentioning again the idea that the student worker was "powerhungry." She may have been, but more likely she is someone who has a not very fun job, and bosses who give her policies she has to follow, or otherwise risk losing her job. The policy sounds ridiculous, but if you take it out on the (probably minimum-wage) worker who is stuck enforcing it, you're probably not going to make much progress.
posted by primethyme at 4:42 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 4:42 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
It is absolutely ridiculous that they arrested you, no doubt, but this is not the hill you should die on. Apologize profusely to whoever you have to apologize to, get a lawyer to make sure that this doesn't stick on your permanent record, and chalk it up to dumb things that happen when everyone is stressed and sleep-deprived. You should have left when the police asked you to. They gave you every opportunity to not end this with an arrest and you didn't take it. Like others have mentioned, the reason for the ID rule could be that while it's easy to share a computer login with a friend it's harder to fake matching a photo ID. You should have gone home and emailed the professor letting them know why you couldn't complete the exam if you were unable to finish it on a friend's computer.
posted by MsMolly at 4:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MsMolly at 4:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
She was arrogant and obviously powerhungry though, and completely ignored me.
She is a student employee (which may mean this job is her financial aid) who just wants people to not give her shit when she does the job she's supposed to do. You'd be well-advised to get all the punching down out of your system before you speak to the dean, who will probably have already had a conversation with a young woman who was supposed to secure the library at 11pm and was confronted by another student who refused to leave and probably scared the shit out of her.
If she'd been free to "ignore" you, she would have said, "okay but don't tell anybody" and left you alone.
It's almost impossible to know if bringing a lawyer to the dean's office will improve matters or cause them to close ranks and terminate your enrollment with no further discussion (which is almost certainly within the terms of service you accepted when you enrolled; at most schools, just getting arrested is sufficient to change your status to "former student"). Have that conversation with any lawyer you're considering engaging, about the relative legal benefits of having them involved in your initial dealings with the school versus just having them deal with the criminal case.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
She is a student employee (which may mean this job is her financial aid) who just wants people to not give her shit when she does the job she's supposed to do. You'd be well-advised to get all the punching down out of your system before you speak to the dean, who will probably have already had a conversation with a young woman who was supposed to secure the library at 11pm and was confronted by another student who refused to leave and probably scared the shit out of her.
If she'd been free to "ignore" you, she would have said, "okay but don't tell anybody" and left you alone.
It's almost impossible to know if bringing a lawyer to the dean's office will improve matters or cause them to close ranks and terminate your enrollment with no further discussion (which is almost certainly within the terms of service you accepted when you enrolled; at most schools, just getting arrested is sufficient to change your status to "former student"). Have that conversation with any lawyer you're considering engaging, about the relative legal benefits of having them involved in your initial dealings with the school versus just having them deal with the criminal case.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
As somebody who spends most my time in the library, I'm familiar with the policy. I have been in the library dozens of times for this weird ritual, and it's never been a problem before.
Presumably because you had your ID those times. You're going to be arguing against matters of safety and security and that's not a battle you have any hope of winning.
At the time, I felt like a mix between "The Stranger's" Mersault and a Rosa Parks. It was absurd and important all at the same time. And, with 500 pairs of eyes on me, I felt like I had no choice. The situation struck me as everything wrong with our university. It was bureaucratic policies like these, passed from the top down and enforced by unconscious creatures, that destroyed education.
Seriously? This is not some huge social injustice meant to persecute you. My university library did this at exam time and if I had been there without ID and had been asked to leave, I would have left willingly.
Being right is not important here. Not screwing yourself further is.
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:55 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Presumably because you had your ID those times. You're going to be arguing against matters of safety and security and that's not a battle you have any hope of winning.
At the time, I felt like a mix between "The Stranger's" Mersault and a Rosa Parks. It was absurd and important all at the same time. And, with 500 pairs of eyes on me, I felt like I had no choice. The situation struck me as everything wrong with our university. It was bureaucratic policies like these, passed from the top down and enforced by unconscious creatures, that destroyed education.
Seriously? This is not some huge social injustice meant to persecute you. My university library did this at exam time and if I had been there without ID and had been asked to leave, I would have left willingly.
Being right is not important here. Not screwing yourself further is.
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:55 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
There's probably room for you to argue that the policy ought to take into account situations where the time required to get a new ID clashes with academic timetables. But first, second, and third: you ask for forgiveness, eat a certain amount of shit, and very much don't make it about the other people who were involved here.
posted by holgate at 5:03 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by holgate at 5:03 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
University libraries have policies like this because students being harassed by non students is something they seek to prevent.
I'm unsure why you think a login would prove you are a student - student account credentials get stolen all of the time. For all they knew you could be the big brother of an actual student and trying to use your siblings account. Or something more sinister. Why would they bother with a Student ID at all if just login credentials are good enough ?
I can't believe you didn't leave when asked. That was very stupid. You were in the wrong here. You're not a special snowflake to whom rules don't apply, just because reasons. You were that asshat that made a scene for no good reason. I'm not trying to be mean - I just want to make it plain that you are not some oppressed minority protesting the violence inherent in the system. Come down off the cross, and use the wood to build a bridge and get over yourself.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:03 PM on May 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm unsure why you think a login would prove you are a student - student account credentials get stolen all of the time. For all they knew you could be the big brother of an actual student and trying to use your siblings account. Or something more sinister. Why would they bother with a Student ID at all if just login credentials are good enough ?
I can't believe you didn't leave when asked. That was very stupid. You were in the wrong here. You're not a special snowflake to whom rules don't apply, just because reasons. You were that asshat that made a scene for no good reason. I'm not trying to be mean - I just want to make it plain that you are not some oppressed minority protesting the violence inherent in the system. Come down off the cross, and use the wood to build a bridge and get over yourself.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:03 PM on May 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
You made a series of mistakes here. It is important going forward not to make another by seeing yourself as a victim regardless of the consensus of your social circle.
So first do whatever your lawyer tells you (and get the best lawyer you can possibly afford especially if you don't previously have a criminal record) as far as the arrest goes.
You might want to get some education on dealing with stress. As you've found out it can induce poor decision making and once I learned to recognize when I was excessively stressed to that point I was able to make better decisions under stress.
Going forward in life never argue with cops; you never win and usually it results in harsher punishment (in this case arrest instead of escort from the building). Be glad you didn't get a beat down or shot.
Finally being able to log into a computer system proves nothing; students share passwords with other students and non students like they were bong hits. Don't try to use this ability as proof you are a student. Also the entire security apparatus of the school is going to be hyper aware of your presence. Get a new student ID immediately; most registrar offices will do this for you for little or no cost and without prying questions.
posted by Mitheral at 5:05 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
So first do whatever your lawyer tells you (and get the best lawyer you can possibly afford especially if you don't previously have a criminal record) as far as the arrest goes.
You might want to get some education on dealing with stress. As you've found out it can induce poor decision making and once I learned to recognize when I was excessively stressed to that point I was able to make better decisions under stress.
Going forward in life never argue with cops; you never win and usually it results in harsher punishment (in this case arrest instead of escort from the building). Be glad you didn't get a beat down or shot.
Finally being able to log into a computer system proves nothing; students share passwords with other students and non students like they were bong hits. Don't try to use this ability as proof you are a student. Also the entire security apparatus of the school is going to be hyper aware of your presence. Get a new student ID immediately; most registrar offices will do this for you for little or no cost and without prying questions.
posted by Mitheral at 5:05 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd write a formal letter of apology to the library employee, and one to the school, and bring printed copies of both to your meeting with the dean. Language like:
"In the moment, I was stressed about my exam the next day (as well as the theft of my wallet) and I did not handle it appropriately. I should have left the library to find another place to study, and later, through the library administration, expressed my concern about the inflexible policy and the feedback that perhaps the policy should allow a "backup" way to prove student status in the rare case of ID theft like this one.
I sincerely apologize for my actions and for the disruption I caused at the library during finals week.
I humbly request that the university consider dropping the charges against me. I can assure you that I won't cause an incident like this in the future."
Why should you start kow-towing? Purely for your own self-interest. If you show up with a lawyer and all puffed up, they will instinctively respond in kind and absolutely continue to press charges.
More flies with sugar right now. If they don't respond well to obsequious begging you can bring in the big legal guns.
posted by amaire at 5:09 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
"In the moment, I was stressed about my exam the next day (as well as the theft of my wallet) and I did not handle it appropriately. I should have left the library to find another place to study, and later, through the library administration, expressed my concern about the inflexible policy and the feedback that perhaps the policy should allow a "backup" way to prove student status in the rare case of ID theft like this one.
I sincerely apologize for my actions and for the disruption I caused at the library during finals week.
I humbly request that the university consider dropping the charges against me. I can assure you that I won't cause an incident like this in the future."
Why should you start kow-towing? Purely for your own self-interest. If you show up with a lawyer and all puffed up, they will instinctively respond in kind and absolutely continue to press charges.
More flies with sugar right now. If they don't respond well to obsequious begging you can bring in the big legal guns.
posted by amaire at 5:09 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: You're right, the whole situation is ridiculous, and she absolutely could have used her intelligence and discretion to work out who you were and let you off, she just didn't want to bother (I believe you about her). And you panicked under the pressure and went all romantic, and this is the result.
So now, be practical. Don't get carried away when you talk about this or even think about it. Tell the person you need to speak to (the dean?) you were stressed due to the pressure of the exam etc., and apologize, profusely, for overreacting. (You really should have left, and then immediately emailed your prof, but hey). Be practical.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
So now, be practical. Don't get carried away when you talk about this or even think about it. Tell the person you need to speak to (the dean?) you were stressed due to the pressure of the exam etc., and apologize, profusely, for overreacting. (You really should have left, and then immediately emailed your prof, but hey). Be practical.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:12 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm with the people who say apologize & admit you should have left the library & relocated. Her attitude doesn't matter & you were the one who continued to escalate the situation. After that, I'd ask them if you could help develop a policy for students who face similar situations in the future. Creating an internal online registry of students with pictures sounds like a good place to start.
posted by katemcd at 5:22 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by katemcd at 5:22 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Lawyer Up.
Have you been able to take the exam? Make sure you are given the opportunity to complete your work.
posted by theora55 at 5:23 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Have you been able to take the exam? Make sure you are given the opportunity to complete your work.
posted by theora55 at 5:23 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you recommend I drop all ideas of pursuing this and start cowtowing, it would be great to hear your reasoning.
Because if you do this you might not be expelled.
posted by destructive cactus at 5:27 PM on May 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Because if you do this you might not be expelled.
posted by destructive cactus at 5:27 PM on May 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
The only reasonable outcome here is that they drop the charges, and let you off with no more than a slap on the wrist. I would ask the dean for this outcome, without a lawyer. If you do need to go to court, then I would indeed get a lawyer.
You are not going to be expelled for this, provided it happened as you described.
posted by deadweightloss at 5:32 PM on May 19, 2015
You are not going to be expelled for this, provided it happened as you described.
posted by deadweightloss at 5:32 PM on May 19, 2015
If you recommend I drop all ideas of pursuing this and start cowtowing, it would be great to hear your reasoning.
The reasoning is, it will make your life easier if this all goes away. You lose absolutely nothing by trying to defuse this before it escalates to court. If you fail, you can still fight it in court.
Sticking to bloody minded principle because you are technically in the right is not the smart play.
For the record, I didn't just log onto the website. I showed her my tuition bill for the quarter, which had my name on it, as well as my class enrollments and syllabuses. Sure, it's not perfect. I agree. However, I think anybody with reasonable intelligence and a hint of kind-heartedness could have put the pieces together to figure out who I was.
I understand the policy is there to protect students. However, it's not like I was threatening anybody. I was polite, I was pleading, and I wasn't bothering anybody. We use technology for just about everything and it amazes me that in this day and age it would not be an acceptable way to prove something as basic as that.
NONE OF THIS MATTERS NOW. I get that you feel that the library person was being unreasonable. I agree with you. But you are in this situation now. Go talk to the dean, be calm and reasonable, explain that you were under stress and this was all a misunderstanding, and try and get yourself out of it.
In short, abandon your pride - it's of no use to you here. Play the long game.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:34 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
The reasoning is, it will make your life easier if this all goes away. You lose absolutely nothing by trying to defuse this before it escalates to court. If you fail, you can still fight it in court.
Sticking to bloody minded principle because you are technically in the right is not the smart play.
For the record, I didn't just log onto the website. I showed her my tuition bill for the quarter, which had my name on it, as well as my class enrollments and syllabuses. Sure, it's not perfect. I agree. However, I think anybody with reasonable intelligence and a hint of kind-heartedness could have put the pieces together to figure out who I was.
I understand the policy is there to protect students. However, it's not like I was threatening anybody. I was polite, I was pleading, and I wasn't bothering anybody. We use technology for just about everything and it amazes me that in this day and age it would not be an acceptable way to prove something as basic as that.
NONE OF THIS MATTERS NOW. I get that you feel that the library person was being unreasonable. I agree with you. But you are in this situation now. Go talk to the dean, be calm and reasonable, explain that you were under stress and this was all a misunderstanding, and try and get yourself out of it.
In short, abandon your pride - it's of no use to you here. Play the long game.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:34 PM on May 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Honestly, I don't like your chances, because you've returned here three times to make sure we really truly understand just how right you were. If you take this attitude at all in your meeting with the dean, even a little bit, I think you are toast.
You need to find a way to the place where you admit you were wrong and OWN it. Then maybe you won't have an arrest record from some dumb decision hanging over you when you're trying to get a job some day.
posted by msbubbaclees at 5:34 PM on May 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
You need to find a way to the place where you admit you were wrong and OWN it. Then maybe you won't have an arrest record from some dumb decision hanging over you when you're trying to get a job some day.
posted by msbubbaclees at 5:34 PM on May 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
The way they treated you was bullshit. Send your story to the student newspaper. Embarrass everyone who had a hand in this.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:36 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacqueline at 5:36 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you've already been arrested and already been charged, DO NOT TALK TO YOUR DEAN. Someone needs to, yes, but it should not be you because you have been arrested and charged with a crime and talking to anyone about the events leading to your arrest and charging IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. In fact, you should not be talking to anyone about it.
Have your attorney talk to the dean.
posted by crush-onastick at 5:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Have your attorney talk to the dean.
posted by crush-onastick at 5:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Do not die on this hill, man. It's not worth it. Be gracious and contrite and move past this and laugh about it later.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best case scenario is you sue, get some cash settlement, then anyone who ever hears this tale will think you're a douchebag who doesn't know when to pick his battles.
There are times when you need to take the high road. This is one of them.
I'd apologize, maybe vent a silent complaint, but never speak of it again, lest a potential employer ever hear if what happened. I certainly wouldn't hire someone who made such a stink over this.
posted by Unsomnambulist at 5:49 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are times when you need to take the high road. This is one of them.
I'd apologize, maybe vent a silent complaint, but never speak of it again, lest a potential employer ever hear if what happened. I certainly wouldn't hire someone who made such a stink over this.
posted by Unsomnambulist at 5:49 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can't believe there aren't more responses telling you to talk to a lawyer (several, actually - find a good one!) before doing anything.
1. You were arrested. Lawyer, STAT.
2. You might get expelled, and you could be out tons of money you spent on school and housing if expelled. Lawyer, STAT.
3. Presumably, anything you say to the Dean (OR GOD FORBID PUT IN WRITING HOLY SHIT GET THIS QUESTION DELETED ASAP) could be used in court. Lawyer, STAT.
Do you understand? Stop talking and writing about this. Delete this question and maybe your MeraFilter account. Don't text friends about this. Don't put ANYTHING in writing anywhere. Talk to several lawyers. Find a good one. Save your education and avoid a criminal record.
See a therapist about your feelings. Stop working this out in public.
posted by jbenben at 5:50 PM on May 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
1. You were arrested. Lawyer, STAT.
2. You might get expelled, and you could be out tons of money you spent on school and housing if expelled. Lawyer, STAT.
3. Presumably, anything you say to the Dean (OR GOD FORBID PUT IN WRITING HOLY SHIT GET THIS QUESTION DELETED ASAP) could be used in court. Lawyer, STAT.
Do you understand? Stop talking and writing about this. Delete this question and maybe your MeraFilter account. Don't text friends about this. Don't put ANYTHING in writing anywhere. Talk to several lawyers. Find a good one. Save your education and avoid a criminal record.
See a therapist about your feelings. Stop working this out in public.
posted by jbenben at 5:50 PM on May 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm in the apologize and back down camp. My rationale: If you try apologizing first, at best you can get this resolved now, for free, outside of the system and with no permanent repercussions. At worst it won't work and you'll still have to go to court. If you turn this into a crusade, at best you'll get the case dropped but have spent a lot of money and time and angst on it. You'll have the dubious pleasure of having triumphed but I think your reputation for good judgement - with faculty, the administration, fellow students - will suffer more than gain. At worst you'll have spent the money and time and angst, taken the reputation hit, and have a criminal record.
Sometimes being practical is more important than being right.
posted by peachfuzz at 5:51 PM on May 19, 2015
Sometimes being practical is more important than being right.
posted by peachfuzz at 5:51 PM on May 19, 2015
If you recommend I drop all ideas of pursuing this and start cowtowing, it would be great to hear your reasoning.
Because having to explain to potential employers and landlords why you have a misdemeanor conviction on your record can really suck and may cost you opportunities. Having a criminal record can affect your ability to travel and immigrate. If your attorney is certain that charge can be beat, sure, defend against it. But if there's any likelihood that you'll get convicted, doing whatever cowtowing it takes to avoid it is worth it. We live in an imperfect world and jeopardizing your future over this is not worth it.
Get the charge dismissed, smooth things over with the Dean. Then you can work on getting the library policy changed to something saner.
posted by Candleman at 5:51 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Because having to explain to potential employers and landlords why you have a misdemeanor conviction on your record can really suck and may cost you opportunities. Having a criminal record can affect your ability to travel and immigrate. If your attorney is certain that charge can be beat, sure, defend against it. But if there's any likelihood that you'll get convicted, doing whatever cowtowing it takes to avoid it is worth it. We live in an imperfect world and jeopardizing your future over this is not worth it.
Get the charge dismissed, smooth things over with the Dean. Then you can work on getting the library policy changed to something saner.
posted by Candleman at 5:51 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
If you've already been arrested and already been charged, DO NOT TALK TO YOUR DEAN.
Yes, I agree, I would talk to an attorney before speaking to the school. If you have already been charged, then you need legal advice. Being contrite may work, but there are larger issues at play that may affect your future.
posted by bluefly at 5:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes, I agree, I would talk to an attorney before speaking to the school. If you have already been charged, then you need legal advice. Being contrite may work, but there are larger issues at play that may affect your future.
posted by bluefly at 5:53 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think some commenters are actually attorneys, others are academics, and some (like me) are average Joes. From my scatty memory of who's who (not that I'm keeping track, but you remember the odd thing), the attorneys are advising talking to a lawyer, and I think people with academic experience are suggesting going internally. But it seems to me (an average Joe) that if you've been charged with something, it's worth going with the lawyers.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:54 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:54 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
How does showing your tuition bill and class enrollments prove that you're you and not someone with your login info? Unless there is a picture in there somewhere, it doesn't. You were tired, stressed, and frustrated, and you handled this poorly. I don't think you're stupid or awful, but I do think you're missing the point that you weren't really proving you were you. And a student worker can be rightfully wary of exercising discretion. You need to hire a lawyer who has experience with colleges and seriously consider the possibility that you were wrong. And anonymize this question.
posted by Mavri at 5:54 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 5:54 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Retain a lawyer who has experience dealing with your university. Follow their advice. Do not talk to anyone else before you get the lawyer's advice.
I am an academic. My advice would probably be different if you were not facing criminal charges, but you are.
posted by grouse at 5:56 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I am an academic. My advice would probably be different if you were not facing criminal charges, but you are.
posted by grouse at 5:56 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm an academic, and I recommend going the lawyer route because your attitude here makes me think you'll blow it if you go to your Dean directly. Seriously: However, I think anybody with reasonable intelligence and a hint of kind-heartedness could have put the pieces together to figure out who I was ; It's not the job of the poor night-shift student worker to go all CSI: Cyber on figuring out your identity. It's your job to have the required ID on hand or leave when asked and find a different all-night study space.
posted by TwoStride at 6:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 6:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
Since others have covered a lot of ground here, I want to say that you seem to have zero empathy for the student officer here. When I was in high school, I worked at a grocery store. Police officers would pay 20 year olds to try to buy alcohol from me and my colleagues. If you sold to them once, you lost your job, no discussion. So I checked *every* ID. The guy who had white hair growing out of his ears? ID check. Family friends? ID check. I took a lot of shit from people - "are you serious?" "you're kidding, right?" - but I didn't want to lose my job. And really, you should have an ID. If someone had pulled up a birth certificate on their iPhone (and if they had no ID, how would I know that was them??), I would have said no.
More recently, I've had to verify identities for work events. I've had to smile and tell people, "I'm so sorry but I'm really not allowed to let you in." In the past, people who I have not let in have threatened to email our CEO and board of directors to tell them that I am being a big jerk who won't let them in to the event. That was really stressful. But what was even more stressful was when I let in someone who wasn't supposed to be there and caused problems. Because then people who had paid to attend the event were unhappy and didn't want to come back. But whether I let people in or not, I got grief. It sucked.
I know you think that this student officer is the source of your grief but this situation was entirely preventable and was not her fault. Moreover, she's one of your peers. She probably had her own finals and projects. Maybe her wallet had been stolen and she stayed away from the library until she got a new ID because she knows those are the rules. Maybe someone had come in the night before and said their wallet was stolen and she let them stay in the library and they rewarded her by causing problems. You don't know what her story is and you had an opportunity to back down that you did not take. This may be a crappy rule but you knew it was the rule, you chose to argue it, and now you're facing consequences for those actions. You doubled down multiple times that night in the library. Look where it got you. Maybe you should take the hint.
posted by kat518 at 6:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [31 favorites]
More recently, I've had to verify identities for work events. I've had to smile and tell people, "I'm so sorry but I'm really not allowed to let you in." In the past, people who I have not let in have threatened to email our CEO and board of directors to tell them that I am being a big jerk who won't let them in to the event. That was really stressful. But what was even more stressful was when I let in someone who wasn't supposed to be there and caused problems. Because then people who had paid to attend the event were unhappy and didn't want to come back. But whether I let people in or not, I got grief. It sucked.
I know you think that this student officer is the source of your grief but this situation was entirely preventable and was not her fault. Moreover, she's one of your peers. She probably had her own finals and projects. Maybe her wallet had been stolen and she stayed away from the library until she got a new ID because she knows those are the rules. Maybe someone had come in the night before and said their wallet was stolen and she let them stay in the library and they rewarded her by causing problems. You don't know what her story is and you had an opportunity to back down that you did not take. This may be a crappy rule but you knew it was the rule, you chose to argue it, and now you're facing consequences for those actions. You doubled down multiple times that night in the library. Look where it got you. Maybe you should take the hint.
posted by kat518 at 6:02 PM on May 19, 2015 [31 favorites]
I'm a former academic. As I posted above, you need an attorney to deal with criminal charges brought against you. To elaborate, I've seen lots of smart kids and lots of stupid kids get tangled up in seemingly minor infractions because they tried to negotiate without really having a good lay of the law and land. Some ended up losing scholarships, housing, jobs, etc because they didn't have good legal advice on how to proceed. I'm not saying this to pass judgment on you. Only that you need to consult a lawyer if you want to mitigate any bad things that could happen to you in the future.
posted by bluefly at 6:04 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by bluefly at 6:04 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I haven't read all the responses yet but I feel the need to reiterate the advice that jbenben offered first which is that, at this point, since you have been arrested and charged, speak to a lawyer BEFORE you apologize to anyone or admit to any wrongdoing. You don't need to drag your lawyer to every appointment with the dean, and they may end up advising you to apologize anyway, but at least ASK THEM FIRST before making any (more) statements that could go against your self interest.
Also I would either ask the mods to make this question anonymous or go delete your real name from your mefi user profile ASAP.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 6:09 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also I would either ask the mods to make this question anonymous or go delete your real name from your mefi user profile ASAP.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 6:09 PM on May 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I want to add that I agree with those who are telling you to check how you are expressing yourself about this if you want to de-escalate successfully. Minimal explanation of extenuating circumstances. No finger pointing. A real apology works not because you've explained why you should be forgiven (or worse yet, why you shouldn't really need forgiveness in the first place); it works because you express understanding of what you did wrong and contrition for doing it, and show that you're a good bet for forgiveness this time because you've learned and won't do it again.
This is the tricky part of apologizing - you have to figure out what you really did wrong. It's why "I'm sorry you were offended" or "I'm sorry but we were both wrong" are such classic shitty non-apologies; they show no no understanding or ownership of what you did. They don't inspire faith that you won't do it again. In this case of course you violated a policy but in the dean's eyes what you actually did wrong is demonstrate super bad judgement and disrespect for the school/staff/your fellow students, etc. You may not have meant to, you might have a long list of reasons why it happened or shouldn't have happened, but whenever you're in a position to apologize you have to start with your impact, not your intentions.
posted by peachfuzz at 6:18 PM on May 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is the tricky part of apologizing - you have to figure out what you really did wrong. It's why "I'm sorry you were offended" or "I'm sorry but we were both wrong" are such classic shitty non-apologies; they show no no understanding or ownership of what you did. They don't inspire faith that you won't do it again. In this case of course you violated a policy but in the dean's eyes what you actually did wrong is demonstrate super bad judgement and disrespect for the school/staff/your fellow students, etc. You may not have meant to, you might have a long list of reasons why it happened or shouldn't have happened, but whenever you're in a position to apologize you have to start with your impact, not your intentions.
posted by peachfuzz at 6:18 PM on May 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
If you recommend I drop all ideas of pursuing this and start cowtowing, it would be great to hear your reasoning.
Here is the reasoning: when the police show up, you submit. If you disagree with the reasoning for the police's arresting you, the courtroom is the place to do that. If you do not submit to the police, they will escalate until you submit, are incapacitated, or dead. You probably weren't going to end up dead here, but this is good advice for the future. The cops here escalated when they called for backup. Then you dared them to arrest you. I'm one of the last people to defend police but they seem like patient saints to me. If your grandparents are still alive, ask them if this anything like they experienced.
You still seem to think that you were in the right because you could log into a university web site. I think you figured out that no one cared. This is just like driving with out a license on your person. If you get pulled over, it doesn't matter if you can tell the officer all the traffic laws you know or can recite your license number by heart - if you don't have it on your person, you are in violation of the law.
Now, you are facing criminal charges, so you need a lawyer. You more especially need a lawyer because if you take the attitude you have right now into court this will go badly. You need a lawyer to say that you are very, very sorry. If you give any indication to a judge that you think you were in the right, you are going to have a bad time. Luckily, this is trespassing so maybe with a good lawyer you can see about getting the charges dropped. The prosecutor is probably going ot be annoyed that you made the government incur the cost and time of sending backup, though. This is tough.
posted by Tanizaki at 6:21 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Here is the reasoning: when the police show up, you submit. If you disagree with the reasoning for the police's arresting you, the courtroom is the place to do that. If you do not submit to the police, they will escalate until you submit, are incapacitated, or dead. You probably weren't going to end up dead here, but this is good advice for the future. The cops here escalated when they called for backup. Then you dared them to arrest you. I'm one of the last people to defend police but they seem like patient saints to me. If your grandparents are still alive, ask them if this anything like they experienced.
You still seem to think that you were in the right because you could log into a university web site. I think you figured out that no one cared. This is just like driving with out a license on your person. If you get pulled over, it doesn't matter if you can tell the officer all the traffic laws you know or can recite your license number by heart - if you don't have it on your person, you are in violation of the law.
Now, you are facing criminal charges, so you need a lawyer. You more especially need a lawyer because if you take the attitude you have right now into court this will go badly. You need a lawyer to say that you are very, very sorry. If you give any indication to a judge that you think you were in the right, you are going to have a bad time. Luckily, this is trespassing so maybe with a good lawyer you can see about getting the charges dropped. The prosecutor is probably going ot be annoyed that you made the government incur the cost and time of sending backup, though. This is tough.
posted by Tanizaki at 6:21 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
And on reflection I totally agree with the folks saying to check in with a lawyer first, and be open to thief advice on resolutions that are bigger long-game wins.
posted by peachfuzz at 6:27 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by peachfuzz at 6:27 PM on May 19, 2015
In your last question, you were planning an international road trip, which sounds awesome.
Having a conviction on your record can make crossing borders difficult or impossible. Please consult a lawyer before you speak to anyone else about this.
posted by rtha at 6:31 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Having a conviction on your record can make crossing borders difficult or impossible. Please consult a lawyer before you speak to anyone else about this.
posted by rtha at 6:31 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I used to manage the circulation/access portion of an academic library, so the student worker you dealt with would have reported to someone like me. She would have been paid minimum wage, likely out of a federal workstudy program, and would not have been empowered to make decisions or exceptions in your case. Her response procedure would be to call the cops, as she did. The cops' response would have been to see library security policy (nobody without valid ID in the library after 11pm) enforced. Individual asshole cops aside, they don't do this out of a power trip or whatever - their mandate is to ensure a safe environment for students (which in turn leads to happy tuition-paying parents, happier insurance underwriters, and so on) and they do that by following policy. As pointed out, you had a few outs that you did not take and, in my experience, that has closed some apology doors for you.
I would not suggest talking to a Dean without first talking to a lawyer (who is familiar with your school) and listening to what they have to say. The Dean would certainly talk with other people (library director, police chief, college legal, etc) before speaking with you. I can easily see a picture of a disruptive student in the library while 300+ students were trying to study for exams being painted which will not work out in your favor. Your ideal representative would be someone who not only knows the system but knows the players here - they would be the one to float the idea of apologies or community service or whatever needs to happen to avoid these few stress-filled hours from ruining an academic career. Universities don't like to make waves and picking the right advocate can signal that you're on board with making this whole thing go away.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:31 PM on May 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
I would not suggest talking to a Dean without first talking to a lawyer (who is familiar with your school) and listening to what they have to say. The Dean would certainly talk with other people (library director, police chief, college legal, etc) before speaking with you. I can easily see a picture of a disruptive student in the library while 300+ students were trying to study for exams being painted which will not work out in your favor. Your ideal representative would be someone who not only knows the system but knows the players here - they would be the one to float the idea of apologies or community service or whatever needs to happen to avoid these few stress-filled hours from ruining an academic career. Universities don't like to make waves and picking the right advocate can signal that you're on board with making this whole thing go away.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:31 PM on May 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
As @Cmoj mentioned, the law says that if I can prove I have a rightful reason to be there then I wasn't trespassing. I believe I can prove that, but obviously I'll need to get ahold of the library policies.
First you say what the law says. Then you say that in order to know what the law says, you need to "get ahold of the library policies." This, no offense intended, seems to me to indicate that you have no idea what the "law says" about this.
This is why you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need a lawyer. Immediately.
Do not write anything to anyone. Do not say anything to anyone. Do not apologize to anyone. Get the money together for a good lawyer however you can, then call one immediately.
You have been arrested and charged with a crime. If you are convicted, you will have a criminal record for the rest of your life. This is not something to take lightly.
A lawyer can tell you if you can get out of this somehow by proving that you had the right to be there. A lawyer can tell you what the best course of action is if that's not how it works.
Judging from your responses in this thread (which, of course, are all I have to go on), I believe that this situation is a lot more serious than you seem to think it is. I'm not saying it *should* be that way or that it's fair, but, unfortunately, should doesn't matter when it comes to things like this.
I am honestly not trying to be a jerk here, but (as a university employee and loooong-time university student who has had many problems with the administration), the first things about you/your case that come to my mind here are these:
Again, my point in mentioning all this is not to browbeat you, but to try to convey what I see as the seriousness of this situation and to get you to hire a good lawyer and follow his/her advice to the tee.
Best of luck!
posted by Juffo-Wup at 6:32 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
First you say what the law says. Then you say that in order to know what the law says, you need to "get ahold of the library policies." This, no offense intended, seems to me to indicate that you have no idea what the "law says" about this.
This is why you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need a lawyer. Immediately.
Do not write anything to anyone. Do not say anything to anyone. Do not apologize to anyone. Get the money together for a good lawyer however you can, then call one immediately.
You have been arrested and charged with a crime. If you are convicted, you will have a criminal record for the rest of your life. This is not something to take lightly.
A lawyer can tell you if you can get out of this somehow by proving that you had the right to be there. A lawyer can tell you what the best course of action is if that's not how it works.
Judging from your responses in this thread (which, of course, are all I have to go on), I believe that this situation is a lot more serious than you seem to think it is. I'm not saying it *should* be that way or that it's fair, but, unfortunately, should doesn't matter when it comes to things like this.
I am honestly not trying to be a jerk here, but (as a university employee and loooong-time university student who has had many problems with the administration), the first things about you/your case that come to my mind here are these:
- Why didn't he get his ID card replaced when it was lost?
- What did he mean he "couldn't study at his apartment"?
- Wouldn't a normal person, faced with the choice between getting arrested and going home, even if that means studying in a suboptimal environment, go home?
Again, my point in mentioning all this is not to browbeat you, but to try to convey what I see as the seriousness of this situation and to get you to hire a good lawyer and follow his/her advice to the tee.
Best of luck!
posted by Juffo-Wup at 6:32 PM on May 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
"We believe you, but we don't make up the rules. We tried to tell them. The library has its policies and we can't change that."
I'm sorry, this would be one of the first times ever that police said, "Oh yeah, that guy with no ID, we'll let him stay here on your property even though you just called the police about him." They arrested you. They did not have to arrest you just because the library has a rule. Police who were 100% on your side would have escorted you out. Or, they were on your side until you continued to refuse to leave the library.
It was absurd and important all at the same time. And, with 500 pairs of eyes on me, I felt like I had no choice. The situation struck me as everything wrong with our university. It was bureaucratic policies like these, passed from the top down and enforced by unconscious creatures, that destroyed education.
Based on what you wrote, I can just as easily see you posting about how you got arrested for refusing to leave the library after gently explaining to whomever that it's bullshit that they let people without student IDs stay after hours because one of those strangers just stole your wallet. Those "unconscious creatures" get all of the robbery, mugging, and sexual assault reports that don't even come close to being on your radar.
Get a lawyer, but get one who will advocate for you, not fight for you, someone who will help you talk with the dean about what you can do to make things right. As far as not admitting to things, this isn't a whodunnit. If you can't get a lawyer before the meeting, then do NOT provide any excuses or make anything about you in the meeting. You've already told a number of people why you wouldn't leave the library: the first called the police and the others took you to jail. Ask what you can do to make things right.
posted by good lorneing at 6:33 PM on May 19, 2015
I'm sorry, this would be one of the first times ever that police said, "Oh yeah, that guy with no ID, we'll let him stay here on your property even though you just called the police about him." They arrested you. They did not have to arrest you just because the library has a rule. Police who were 100% on your side would have escorted you out. Or, they were on your side until you continued to refuse to leave the library.
It was absurd and important all at the same time. And, with 500 pairs of eyes on me, I felt like I had no choice. The situation struck me as everything wrong with our university. It was bureaucratic policies like these, passed from the top down and enforced by unconscious creatures, that destroyed education.
Based on what you wrote, I can just as easily see you posting about how you got arrested for refusing to leave the library after gently explaining to whomever that it's bullshit that they let people without student IDs stay after hours because one of those strangers just stole your wallet. Those "unconscious creatures" get all of the robbery, mugging, and sexual assault reports that don't even come close to being on your radar.
Get a lawyer, but get one who will advocate for you, not fight for you, someone who will help you talk with the dean about what you can do to make things right. As far as not admitting to things, this isn't a whodunnit. If you can't get a lawyer before the meeting, then do NOT provide any excuses or make anything about you in the meeting. You've already told a number of people why you wouldn't leave the library: the first called the police and the others took you to jail. Ask what you can do to make things right.
posted by good lorneing at 6:33 PM on May 19, 2015
Look, the lawyers are saying 'get a lawyer', which is to be expected.
However, the academics are also strongly recommending that you get a lawyer before you do anything else.
I thought that the university context would lend itself to non-legal dispute resolution. People in academia are saying that's not the case. On reflection, I must amend my previous advice. Don't talk to the dean until you have retained a lawyer, and then only talk to the dean if you lawyer advises it.
Get a lawyer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
However, the academics are also strongly recommending that you get a lawyer before you do anything else.
I thought that the university context would lend itself to non-legal dispute resolution. People in academia are saying that's not the case. On reflection, I must amend my previous advice. Don't talk to the dean until you have retained a lawyer, and then only talk to the dean if you lawyer advises it.
Get a lawyer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:38 PM on May 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
As a P.S. as another former academic, in my experience the Deans were pretty uniformly on the students' side when they were sympathetic to them and would make sure that university rules got bent or broken. The fact that it's now a legal issue (CA university police are considered state troopers IIRC) makes that way way harder, but the Dean might just play golf with the right person to make the charge go away. Talk to a lawyer first, but try your best to get on the Dean's good side.
Also as a note, you were arrested not just for trespassing but because you took up six police officer's time including a supervisor, time that they could have spent in much better ways than dealing with you repeatedly ignored their orders (that in all likelihood were lawful). As Tanizaki said, in the future, unless you are genuinely in a Rosa Parks situation, if an officer gives you an order, you obey it.
posted by Candleman at 6:47 PM on May 19, 2015
Also as a note, you were arrested not just for trespassing but because you took up six police officer's time including a supervisor, time that they could have spent in much better ways than dealing with you repeatedly ignored their orders (that in all likelihood were lawful). As Tanizaki said, in the future, unless you are genuinely in a Rosa Parks situation, if an officer gives you an order, you obey it.
posted by Candleman at 6:47 PM on May 19, 2015
Working in the university library is a privilege for which the cost is apparently a student ID. It's (probably) private property, they can make any rules they want, stupid or reasonable. It's not a student worker's job to make them, nor is it worth their job to let something slide. I have to be a stickler and back up sticklers all the time at my university job, and I feel you on the arbitrary nature of where the line is, but it sounds like it was, in fact, a brightly marked line.
How I'd deal with it: be contrite. Blame the stress. If it's a conversation and not a dressing-down, go ahead and ask what kind of policy could be put in place for someone in the position you were in, in the future. But that would be absolutely as hard as I would push the fairness angle.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:48 PM on May 19, 2015
How I'd deal with it: be contrite. Blame the stress. If it's a conversation and not a dressing-down, go ahead and ask what kind of policy could be put in place for someone in the position you were in, in the future. But that would be absolutely as hard as I would push the fairness angle.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:48 PM on May 19, 2015
A lot of people seem to feel the need to tell me I was stupid and want to take me down a notch. Message received, thank you for being honest with me. Now, it would be great to focus on more productive advice.
It's not about taking you down a notch. It's about pointing out how you come across to a bunch of impartial strangers. You sound like you behaved like an arrogant jerk, and the consensus seems to be "don't act that way when you talk to anyone about this". And get a lawyer's advice regarding the specific charge against you.
Once the charge is settled, give it some time, then maybe it would be a worthwhile thing for you to approach the right people and ask for an alternative to this procedure. Maybe the registrar's website could provide a backup method of verifying that you are indeed a student? Or perhaps a replacement I.D. could be made easier to obtain? Because you are depending on this school's resources, and if you can't access them, you can't get the most out of your education, and you won't be the best example of a successful graduate down the road, so this really is something mutually beneficial.
See how I did that? State the problem, offer some solutions, close by showing that you're on the same side as they are, and don't insult sometime who's doing a really crucial job for what is likely shitty pay.
posted by disconnect at 6:49 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's not about taking you down a notch. It's about pointing out how you come across to a bunch of impartial strangers. You sound like you behaved like an arrogant jerk, and the consensus seems to be "don't act that way when you talk to anyone about this". And get a lawyer's advice regarding the specific charge against you.
Once the charge is settled, give it some time, then maybe it would be a worthwhile thing for you to approach the right people and ask for an alternative to this procedure. Maybe the registrar's website could provide a backup method of verifying that you are indeed a student? Or perhaps a replacement I.D. could be made easier to obtain? Because you are depending on this school's resources, and if you can't access them, you can't get the most out of your education, and you won't be the best example of a successful graduate down the road, so this really is something mutually beneficial.
See how I did that? State the problem, offer some solutions, close by showing that you're on the same side as they are, and don't insult sometime who's doing a really crucial job for what is likely shitty pay.
posted by disconnect at 6:49 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
What do you think would happen to that girl if she used her own judgement, which she's not being paid to do, and she was wrong? And someone got hurt? If she got hurt? She'd be in way more trouble than you are right now. And you're only in trouble because of your own actions. Be contrite and help them help you dismiss this. You really need to practice putting yourself in other people's shoes and you need to take your outrage all the way down.
posted by bleep at 7:07 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 7:07 PM on May 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Definitely get a lawyer. You really want this charge to go away, and a lawyer can help make that happen. Two months from now is getting on toward next semester, and I've seen plenty of initial hearings where the commissioner/judge's first move was to ban the person from campus for a similar level of alleged misbehavior.
posted by teremala at 7:12 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by teremala at 7:12 PM on May 19, 2015
IAAL. IANYL. TINLA.
I have represented many, many people whose lives have ended up seriously screwed up because they felt the need to stand up against perceived injustice to the point of getting arrested. You getting convicted of a crime will not help to change this policy. You insisting that the policy is the problem will not prevent you from being convicted of a crime.
You need to have this question deleted. That whole "anything you say can be used against you" line in the Miranda warning? What that means is that the text of this question can be used against you. Your responses in this thread can be used against you. The things you say to the Dean, or to your friends, or to your mom about this situation can be used against you.
It is possible that you have a valid defense to the crime of trespassing. However, in this question, you seem to have confessed to that crime multiple times. All of those confessions can be used against you. The people who are trying to convict you of a crime do not care whether the policy is fair; they care that the university filed a report against you and that they have a slam dunk win here that they can add to their records.
Ask to have this question deleted. Do not say another word to anyone about this incident unless and until a criminal defense attorney licensed in your jurisdiction who represents you tells you what to say and who to say it to.
This is not about the library's policy. This is about whether or not you want to be barred from the school campus, suspended or expelled, and/or convicted of a crime. Those civil rights lawyers went to jail fighting policies they believed were unfair. This is not worth going back to jail over, I promise you.
posted by decathecting at 7:15 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have represented many, many people whose lives have ended up seriously screwed up because they felt the need to stand up against perceived injustice to the point of getting arrested. You getting convicted of a crime will not help to change this policy. You insisting that the policy is the problem will not prevent you from being convicted of a crime.
You need to have this question deleted. That whole "anything you say can be used against you" line in the Miranda warning? What that means is that the text of this question can be used against you. Your responses in this thread can be used against you. The things you say to the Dean, or to your friends, or to your mom about this situation can be used against you.
It is possible that you have a valid defense to the crime of trespassing. However, in this question, you seem to have confessed to that crime multiple times. All of those confessions can be used against you. The people who are trying to convict you of a crime do not care whether the policy is fair; they care that the university filed a report against you and that they have a slam dunk win here that they can add to their records.
Ask to have this question deleted. Do not say another word to anyone about this incident unless and until a criminal defense attorney licensed in your jurisdiction who represents you tells you what to say and who to say it to.
This is not about the library's policy. This is about whether or not you want to be barred from the school campus, suspended or expelled, and/or convicted of a crime. Those civil rights lawyers went to jail fighting policies they believed were unfair. This is not worth going back to jail over, I promise you.
posted by decathecting at 7:15 PM on May 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yah, you messed up. Since you have now been arrested, you need an attorney. I can't add anything else to the already excellent advice except to point you towards FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education. An advocacy group who have helped many students in situations like yours. They may be able to assist you, and have even defended (in court) students in similar situations. Good luck! And almost all of us made similar dumb decisions when we were young. In 20 years this will be a funny story.
posted by seasparrow at 7:16 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by seasparrow at 7:16 PM on May 19, 2015
Talk to a lawyer or at least the university ombudsman. Apologize. Keep your mouth shut.
posted by Nevin at 7:17 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by Nevin at 7:17 PM on May 19, 2015
Why is this question still here on the Internet?? Contact the mods to get this deleted.
Because the facts are not at all in dispute, for one. He knows they enforced a policy. They know he doesn't agree with it. He said things in the thread about how he doesn't agree with the policy. He also said things about how he doesn't agree with the policy when they arrested him.
posted by good lorneing at 7:19 PM on May 19, 2015
Because the facts are not at all in dispute, for one. He knows they enforced a policy. They know he doesn't agree with it. He said things in the thread about how he doesn't agree with the policy. He also said things about how he doesn't agree with the policy when they arrested him.
posted by good lorneing at 7:19 PM on May 19, 2015
Oh, and yes, you can expect that at your court date, you may very well be barred from the school campus until your case is over. Talk to a lawyer. Your lawyer is the person who can try to prevent this incident from literally ruining your life.
Do not apologize. Do not talk to the Dean. Do not talk to anyone who works for the university. Do not talk to your best friend or your parent or your life coach or anyone who is not your lawyer.
(And no, FIRE is not going to take your case unless the reason you chose not to leave the library when asked is because you were exercising your First Amendment rights. No civil rights organization is likely to be interested in this case. You need a regular, run-of-the-mill criminal lawyer.)
posted by decathecting at 7:20 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do not apologize. Do not talk to the Dean. Do not talk to anyone who works for the university. Do not talk to your best friend or your parent or your life coach or anyone who is not your lawyer.
(And no, FIRE is not going to take your case unless the reason you chose not to leave the library when asked is because you were exercising your First Amendment rights. No civil rights organization is likely to be interested in this case. You need a regular, run-of-the-mill criminal lawyer.)
posted by decathecting at 7:20 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm working overseas right now and paying off debts as a result. This job required a criminal background check.
posted by mecran01 at 7:21 PM on May 19, 2015
posted by mecran01 at 7:21 PM on May 19, 2015
I thought that the university context would lend itself to non-legal dispute resolution. People in academia are saying that's not the case.
Oh, it does lend itself to non-legal dispute resolution. That's why a couple of us have suggested finding a lawyer experienced with this university. Getting a lawyer's advice does not mean you are going to court. A good lawyer would try to avoid that outcome if possible. A lawyer may advise you on how best to make your case to the dean. This may or may not include the lawyer attending your meeting.
How do you find a lawyer that has experience with your university? At my university you can read anonymized university tribunal decisions, which list the outside lawyers involved. That's pretty rare. There may be a person at your student government office who would know. Or maybe your university ombudsman could. When you talk to these people to get a referral, do not discuss any details of your case, just that you need a lawyer for a discipline matter involving the university. What you tell these people is not privileged and can be used against you.
posted by grouse at 7:23 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh, it does lend itself to non-legal dispute resolution. That's why a couple of us have suggested finding a lawyer experienced with this university. Getting a lawyer's advice does not mean you are going to court. A good lawyer would try to avoid that outcome if possible. A lawyer may advise you on how best to make your case to the dean. This may or may not include the lawyer attending your meeting.
How do you find a lawyer that has experience with your university? At my university you can read anonymized university tribunal decisions, which list the outside lawyers involved. That's pretty rare. There may be a person at your student government office who would know. Or maybe your university ombudsman could. When you talk to these people to get a referral, do not discuss any details of your case, just that you need a lawyer for a discipline matter involving the university. What you tell these people is not privileged and can be used against you.
posted by grouse at 7:23 PM on May 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Because the facts are not at all in dispute, for one. He knows they enforced a policy. They know he doesn't agree with it. He said things in the thread about how he doesn't agree with the policy. He also said things about how he doesn't agree with the policy when they arrested him.
The facts may very well be in dispute. We have no idea what version of the facts the university or the police or the criminal prosecutor are going to present. And even if they aren't, that is absolutely not a good reason to confess to a crime for which you are pending criminal charges.
posted by decathecting at 7:23 PM on May 19, 2015
The facts may very well be in dispute. We have no idea what version of the facts the university or the police or the criminal prosecutor are going to present. And even if they aren't, that is absolutely not a good reason to confess to a crime for which you are pending criminal charges.
posted by decathecting at 7:23 PM on May 19, 2015
(I am an attorney, yes; I used to do criminal work, but not anymore. I also used to work for the Dean of Students at a large university specifically in a capacity of handling student complaints about one specific part of their university experience. For the love of god and any future you hope to have, if you have been arrested and charged and have a court date, talk to no-one about your charges or the events leading up to them who is not an attorney representing you or potentially representing you)
posted by crush-onastick at 7:25 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 7:25 PM on May 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Working in the university library is a privilege for which the cost is apparently a student ID.
Plus of course however many tens of thousands of dollars the university makes off of you.
Unfortunately, the way our society is currently structured, colleges and universities get to make a hell of alot of money off of you without having to treat you with anything like the degree of deference and respect a hundred-thousand-dollar customer would receive in another industry. It's built in to the system that they can patronizingly jerk you around quite a bit without even having to demonstrate any substantial benefit in the service they're supposedly providing, and lots of young people get to mortgage the rest of their lives for the pleasure.
So I would say that your outrage itself is well-founded and doesn't make you a douchebag (though maybe you were rude to the people you were dealing with face-to-face) but you're in a situation that's designed to force you to kneel. So yeah, play it safe and grovel if you have to and fight another day when it's a more level playing field.
posted by XMLicious at 7:28 PM on May 19, 2015
Yeah, sorry, I didn't realize how serious your situation is; you need to find a lawyer and you need to avoid speaking to the dean if possible until you have talked to your lawyer. So I regret making the suggestion you should apologize first. That was bad advice on my part.
It might seem surreal and unfair to you, but unfortunately that doesn't matter at all. In fact, thinking to much about what happened may cause you to make bad choices. Just talk to a lawyer. Nothing else really matters.
posted by Nevin at 7:29 PM on May 19, 2015
It might seem surreal and unfair to you, but unfortunately that doesn't matter at all. In fact, thinking to much about what happened may cause you to make bad choices. Just talk to a lawyer. Nothing else really matters.
posted by Nevin at 7:29 PM on May 19, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
Sincerely apologize, say you were under a lot of stress and did some stupid things, and ask the dean for forgiveness. Don't try to pursue this in a court of law beyond trying to get this expunged from any records (rather than trying to win a court case). Pick other battles.
You are not Rosa Parks.
You made a mistake, violated the law, and now you need to figure out a way to indicate how you were wrong - not how you were right.
posted by saeculorum at 4:34 PM on May 19, 2015 [28 favorites]