Somebody wants my domain name
May 8, 2015 3:58 AM Subscribe
A young, fast-growing insurance and financial services company in the EU (note: not an insurance agency, but an actual insurance company) has the same name as a .com domain I registered more than 5 years ago. How should I proceed?
I was approached by a domain name broker about selling a .com domain name I registered in 200X. I think the domain name is ace, anyway (mefi helped me pick it). I haven't really done anything with it yet, other than build a snazzy parking site for it. I wasn't at all motivated to sell it, but after a little research, I realized the name is shared by a young, fast-growing insurance and financial services company in the EU.
This company already owns the domain under most of the major tlds, as well as the twitter account, facebook page, etc.
I have a couple of questions about how to proceed.
First, I'm listed as the registrant with my address in the EU. Is there any danger this company could force me to give them the name under EU laws? I'm pretty sure I registered the name before they were on the map. If there's a danger of being forced to give it up in the EU, I wonder whether I'd have more legal protection if I transferred ownership of the domain to someone in the US who'd hold it for me.
Second, how should I go about negotiating a price for the domain? I have the impression that the company in question has deep enough pockets and a strong motivation to pay a substantial sum for the name, especially considering what they've likely already spent on branding with that name. There may be competitors who'd be interested in taking ownership of the domain, as well.
I'd like to maximize my return if I decide to sell the domain, but I want to be ethical about it.
I was approached by a domain name broker about selling a .com domain name I registered in 200X. I think the domain name is ace, anyway (mefi helped me pick it). I haven't really done anything with it yet, other than build a snazzy parking site for it. I wasn't at all motivated to sell it, but after a little research, I realized the name is shared by a young, fast-growing insurance and financial services company in the EU.
This company already owns the domain under most of the major tlds, as well as the twitter account, facebook page, etc.
I have a couple of questions about how to proceed.
First, I'm listed as the registrant with my address in the EU. Is there any danger this company could force me to give them the name under EU laws? I'm pretty sure I registered the name before they were on the map. If there's a danger of being forced to give it up in the EU, I wonder whether I'd have more legal protection if I transferred ownership of the domain to someone in the US who'd hold it for me.
Second, how should I go about negotiating a price for the domain? I have the impression that the company in question has deep enough pockets and a strong motivation to pay a substantial sum for the name, especially considering what they've likely already spent on branding with that name. There may be competitors who'd be interested in taking ownership of the domain, as well.
I'd like to maximize my return if I decide to sell the domain, but I want to be ethical about it.
Response by poster: I registered the .com domain one year and 362 days before they registered any of theirs, and I did perform searches before I registered the name to see whether there were any existing entities using it. I didn't find anything, IIRC.
I do have / have had plans for the domain, but haven't had time to implement them. I'd be interested in knowing what sort of documentation I'd need to have of those plans.
More info: The domain name is a Latin word, and I own the .com name for a second declension of the same Latin word.
Would it be at all helpful if I set up a legal entity in the US with that name right now and started doing business with it?
Would it be helpful if I registered the trademark in the US (it's not registered in the US as of this time)?
I certainly purchased the domain in good faith, and with the intention of using it for my own business purposes. It appears that I thought up and registered the name before they made it public.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 4:47 AM on May 8, 2015
I do have / have had plans for the domain, but haven't had time to implement them. I'd be interested in knowing what sort of documentation I'd need to have of those plans.
More info: The domain name is a Latin word, and I own the .com name for a second declension of the same Latin word.
Would it be at all helpful if I set up a legal entity in the US with that name right now and started doing business with it?
Would it be helpful if I registered the trademark in the US (it's not registered in the US as of this time)?
I certainly purchased the domain in good faith, and with the intention of using it for my own business purposes. It appears that I thought up and registered the name before they made it public.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 4:47 AM on May 8, 2015
The fact that you registered before theirs is a very strong sign that it's not in bad faith. Possibly by itself a winner (but IANYL, I don't practice trademark law)
My thinking on documentation for plans were essentially that you can articulate plans - you have a reason for the domain name, rather than just "I bought it and am going to sit on it with no good reason." Not actual budgets and planning docs or anything.
On the US actions - my feelings that it's not worth doing unless you're actually going to do something with it. Don't set up a dummy corp just to get partial proof that you're using it, because that's just as likely to backfire as to help. You registered it in good faith before knowing about them, you haven't used it because you've been too busy to set it up, that's reasonable. If it turns out that you don't expect to have time to develop your website and offer it to them for a reasonable amount of profit (and you don't threaten to fuck them with your domain if they don't accept, which I'm sure you wouldn't do but has happened), nobody's gonna think twice about that.
posted by Lemurrhea at 5:11 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
My thinking on documentation for plans were essentially that you can articulate plans - you have a reason for the domain name, rather than just "I bought it and am going to sit on it with no good reason." Not actual budgets and planning docs or anything.
On the US actions - my feelings that it's not worth doing unless you're actually going to do something with it. Don't set up a dummy corp just to get partial proof that you're using it, because that's just as likely to backfire as to help. You registered it in good faith before knowing about them, you haven't used it because you've been too busy to set it up, that's reasonable. If it turns out that you don't expect to have time to develop your website and offer it to them for a reasonable amount of profit (and you don't threaten to fuck them with your domain if they don't accept, which I'm sure you wouldn't do but has happened), nobody's gonna think twice about that.
posted by Lemurrhea at 5:11 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: One other note - I have some documentation of the fact that I came up with the name 'on my own' via a creative process that didn't involve poaching an existing name from someone else, if that might be helpful to my case.
I picked the name because I like the meaning of the word, and my plans were never to offer insurance or financial services under the name. I planned to use it for selling marketing and sales consulting services. The meaning of the word, in and of itself, is attractive, and the two main components of the word are very relevant / meaningful for a company offering marketing and sales consulting services. Probably moreso than they are for an insurance company.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 5:16 AM on May 8, 2015
I picked the name because I like the meaning of the word, and my plans were never to offer insurance or financial services under the name. I planned to use it for selling marketing and sales consulting services. The meaning of the word, in and of itself, is attractive, and the two main components of the word are very relevant / meaningful for a company offering marketing and sales consulting services. Probably moreso than they are for an insurance company.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 5:16 AM on May 8, 2015
Response by poster: buoys:
1. Yes and no. I did start a company at roughly the same time I purchased this domain, but it has a completely different name (say 'acme' is my company's name and 'vici' is the domain in question). My plans were and have been to sell technical services under the rubric of 'acme' and more business, sales and marketing consulting services under the rubric of 'vici'. My brother and I have also started two companies in the US with variations on the name 'acme', and we have been doing business under those names for more than five years. What has happened is that we've been selling both sorts of services under the 'acme' rubric, but the plan has always been to eventually move the less technical services under the 'vici' rubric.
2. Most of my customers are in the US, and that's where I plan to continue doing most of my business. Edit: The owners of the other 'vici' domain names do business in the EU and, as far as I can tell, have not registered that trademark in the US. Which is one reason I'm considering registering it now, before anyone files a formal dispute.
So the answer to 1 is 'yes and no' and the answer to 2 seems to be 'no' as of this time.
A broker has communicated an offer of $1000 to me. I'm honestly not motivated to sell at that price - I think it's a very good domain name / brand name for the things we plan to use it for.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 5:33 AM on May 8, 2015
1. Yes and no. I did start a company at roughly the same time I purchased this domain, but it has a completely different name (say 'acme' is my company's name and 'vici' is the domain in question). My plans were and have been to sell technical services under the rubric of 'acme' and more business, sales and marketing consulting services under the rubric of 'vici'. My brother and I have also started two companies in the US with variations on the name 'acme', and we have been doing business under those names for more than five years. What has happened is that we've been selling both sorts of services under the 'acme' rubric, but the plan has always been to eventually move the less technical services under the 'vici' rubric.
2. Most of my customers are in the US, and that's where I plan to continue doing most of my business. Edit: The owners of the other 'vici' domain names do business in the EU and, as far as I can tell, have not registered that trademark in the US. Which is one reason I'm considering registering it now, before anyone files a formal dispute.
So the answer to 1 is 'yes and no' and the answer to 2 seems to be 'no' as of this time.
A broker has communicated an offer of $1000 to me. I'm honestly not motivated to sell at that price - I think it's a very good domain name / brand name for the things we plan to use it for.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 5:33 AM on May 8, 2015
$1000 seems off by at least an order of magnitude, maybe a couple of orders of magnitude.
I have a coworker who owned a 3-letter .com that was not a word, just three random letters with no particular association. He just sold it for $15K. Previously he had an offer for $10K.
posted by alms at 6:19 AM on May 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have a coworker who owned a 3-letter .com that was not a word, just three random letters with no particular association. He just sold it for $15K. Previously he had an offer for $10K.
posted by alms at 6:19 AM on May 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
There may be competitors who'd be interested in taking ownership of the domain.
There is a lot of existing domain case law re. companies diverting online traffic to themselves via a competing trademark. This is considered a form of cybersquatting and these cases are always settled in favor of the trademark owner. Forget the competitor angle.
Is there any danger this company could force me to give them the name under EU laws?
These cases have traditionally been decided on a case-by-case basis - what you have going for you here is that courts have typically been less likely to take away ownership for non "household name" trademarks (this company certainly does not sound like a household name to me); and what you have going against you is that you do not have a history of commercial activity associated with your domain.
How should I go about negotiating a price for the domain?
On balance, you are in a good position. Given how expensive it would be for them to after you and how much they've invested into branding, I would expect that you can settle on a fair price long before it goes to court. I would stop focusing on the legal side of things or doing anything special for the sake of the negotiation - just find an an experienced domain negotiator and follow their guidance. Alternatively, you could register yourself on domainer forums and see what people think is reasonable.
As far as pricing, I am a bit confused by these two seemingly contradictory statements:
A young, fast-growing insurance and financial services company in the EU has the same name as a .com domain I registered more than 5 years ago.
The domain name is a Latin word, and I own the .com name for a second declension of the same Latin word.
So do you own the exact domain name, or a variation? The price would vary hugely depending on the answer. If it's a declension, $1,000 may be not that far off.
posted by rada at 6:33 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is a lot of existing domain case law re. companies diverting online traffic to themselves via a competing trademark. This is considered a form of cybersquatting and these cases are always settled in favor of the trademark owner. Forget the competitor angle.
Is there any danger this company could force me to give them the name under EU laws?
These cases have traditionally been decided on a case-by-case basis - what you have going for you here is that courts have typically been less likely to take away ownership for non "household name" trademarks (this company certainly does not sound like a household name to me); and what you have going against you is that you do not have a history of commercial activity associated with your domain.
How should I go about negotiating a price for the domain?
On balance, you are in a good position. Given how expensive it would be for them to after you and how much they've invested into branding, I would expect that you can settle on a fair price long before it goes to court. I would stop focusing on the legal side of things or doing anything special for the sake of the negotiation - just find an an experienced domain negotiator and follow their guidance. Alternatively, you could register yourself on domainer forums and see what people think is reasonable.
As far as pricing, I am a bit confused by these two seemingly contradictory statements:
A young, fast-growing insurance and financial services company in the EU has the same name as a .com domain I registered more than 5 years ago.
The domain name is a Latin word, and I own the .com name for a second declension of the same Latin word.
So do you own the exact domain name, or a variation? The price would vary hugely depending on the answer. If it's a declension, $1,000 may be not that far off.
posted by rada at 6:33 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: rada:
The name is certainly not a household brand name anywhere outside of the one EU country where they're based, although it may be reasonably well-known in that country by now. I'm not based in that country, nor have I conducted any business there.
I own the exact name of the insurance company in question - 100% the same as their brand name and the other tld domains they own. That name is one declension of a Latin verb. I also picked up a second .com domain at the same time, which is another declension of the same Latin verb. May be completely irrelevant, but it may also show that I was interested in the name and word on its own, rather than having poached it from someone else.
I still wonder whether it might make sense to register the trademark in the US before someone else does / before someone decides to file a dispute. I know an attorney who'd do it for around $500, and it would protect my right to use the name in the US, should I decide to keep the name. On the other hand, I could also offer to transfer my US trademark along with the domain name to a potential buyer, which might make the whole proposition more valuable to them.
alms:
I tend to agree with you. I've done a little more research and learned that the company is a subsidiary of a medium-sized bank in the wealthy EU country where they're based / where they do most of their business. So it's not a charity I'm dealing with, and I think they should pay a fair price for the name.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 6:45 AM on May 8, 2015
The name is certainly not a household brand name anywhere outside of the one EU country where they're based, although it may be reasonably well-known in that country by now. I'm not based in that country, nor have I conducted any business there.
I own the exact name of the insurance company in question - 100% the same as their brand name and the other tld domains they own. That name is one declension of a Latin verb. I also picked up a second .com domain at the same time, which is another declension of the same Latin verb. May be completely irrelevant, but it may also show that I was interested in the name and word on its own, rather than having poached it from someone else.
I still wonder whether it might make sense to register the trademark in the US before someone else does / before someone decides to file a dispute. I know an attorney who'd do it for around $500, and it would protect my right to use the name in the US, should I decide to keep the name. On the other hand, I could also offer to transfer my US trademark along with the domain name to a potential buyer, which might make the whole proposition more valuable to them.
alms:
I tend to agree with you. I've done a little more research and learned that the company is a subsidiary of a medium-sized bank in the wealthy EU country where they're based / where they do most of their business. So it's not a charity I'm dealing with, and I think they should pay a fair price for the name.
posted by Strumpf Marionette at 6:45 AM on May 8, 2015
Mod note: OP, please go easy on the in-thread responses -- fine for the odd clarification or essential followup but Ask MeFi isn't really geared towards conversation or discussion. So no big deal but maybe not so much with the back-and-forth responses, thanks.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 7:02 AM on May 8, 2015
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 7:02 AM on May 8, 2015
The fact that they're offering to buy at all suggests they know they can't pry it from you in court or whatever. These days a URL is gonna be the lifeblood of their business. Squeeze them for more.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:59 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Itaxpica at 8:59 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I owned a spiffy domain name in the .com tld. It was a real word, and applied to several companies. Sell it in good faith for serious profit. The buyer tried to use godaddy to transfer the domain, and they were unable to accomplish the transfer, so we used my domain registrar.
The hard part is assessing the value. They want the name without undue hassle. But if you ask for 15 million euro, they may choose to litigate as being worth the hassle. There are valuation sites, you will get a wild range of values. When you start to think you sold the domain name too cheaply, remind yourself: you had a smart idea, invested pennies, reaped thousands. Great investment.
posted by theora55 at 9:18 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
The hard part is assessing the value. They want the name without undue hassle. But if you ask for 15 million euro, they may choose to litigate as being worth the hassle. There are valuation sites, you will get a wild range of values. When you start to think you sold the domain name too cheaply, remind yourself: you had a smart idea, invested pennies, reaped thousands. Great investment.
posted by theora55 at 9:18 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are domain auction sites that should at least give an idea on how much your domain name is worth. Most of that is junk stats, but pick a couple big ones, type in your domain name, and see what results they spit out. At least you'll know how much it's worth.
Try to get them to offer you a pretty serious amount. 10-15K is more like the proper amount, without actually seeing the domain. There are even domain brokers that'll take a cut in exchange of saving you the headache.
posted by kschang at 10:47 AM on May 8, 2015
Try to get them to offer you a pretty serious amount. 10-15K is more like the proper amount, without actually seeing the domain. There are even domain brokers that'll take a cut in exchange of saving you the headache.
posted by kschang at 10:47 AM on May 8, 2015
Not sure if you know this, but the trademark process in the US can take months--I think 6 months is the minimum, could be a year or more if there are any problems with your application. So depending on how quickly you think this matter might go, registering for a trademark might not do you much good.
Also, I think $1k is crazy low. Even 10k seems low for a prime .com. I'd try to consult with someone in the industry, but if it were me I'd throw 25k out there and see what they said.
posted by Bella Sebastian at 11:43 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, I think $1k is crazy low. Even 10k seems low for a prime .com. I'd try to consult with someone in the industry, but if it were me I'd throw 25k out there and see what they said.
posted by Bella Sebastian at 11:43 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Domain appraisal sites and domain auction sites will consistently undervalue a domain in this type of a scenario. Appraisal sites calculate domain worth mostly based on traffic so you will not get a fair valuation for a domain whose main value is in branding that's too new to produce natural traffic, and auctions attract domainers looking for a good deal or businesses looking to brand based on what dot com they can get.
I recommend you find an experienced domain negotiator, this situation really needs a human touch. Here is a link to get you started, or search for "domain seller broker".
posted by rada at 11:58 AM on May 8, 2015
I recommend you find an experienced domain negotiator, this situation really needs a human touch. Here is a link to get you started, or search for "domain seller broker".
posted by rada at 11:58 AM on May 8, 2015
It's unlikely that a trademark registration would help you very much. As said, it'll take you a bunch of time, and there are some other concerns. If you're planning to sell it off, then you don't really have an intention to use the mark in commerce, now do you? It's likely not worth it. Plus your potential use would be different than theirs, since your services are different.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:20 PM on May 8, 2015
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:20 PM on May 8, 2015
I will suggest you consider getting your own domain name broker. Come up with a price you would be willing to sell it for and suggest your broker contact that company you think is the most likely candidate for purchasing it. If they won't meet your price, continue with your plans to develop it for your own use at some point.
I have never done this but I have read up a little on someone else who did do this. It took time for them to sell it and get a price they liked. They had their own representation in the process, who was looking to sell it on their behalf, not a broker that was looking to buy it out from under them for a song.
posted by Michele in California at 1:21 PM on May 8, 2015
I have never done this but I have read up a little on someone else who did do this. It took time for them to sell it and get a price they liked. They had their own representation in the process, who was looking to sell it on their behalf, not a broker that was looking to buy it out from under them for a song.
posted by Michele in California at 1:21 PM on May 8, 2015
Best answer: They are SERIOUSLY lowballing you. I know of several similar stories to alms in my network, in which some valley startup wanted a domain or something. Everyone got WAY more than this.
I would say 25k would be lowballing. Add another zero. 100k would not be out of line. This is a corporation that banks millions, if not in insurance billions. And this is basically the frontend of their brand in the 21st century. This domain is worth at least a reasonable portion of what they'd spend on an ad campaign.
You really need a lawyer or someone who is experienced in this field to advise you. They're REALLY hoping they can roll you for $1000 here.
The other thing is, if you've had this domain since before that company was even really operating under that name... you probably have a pretty ironclad ownership of it, unless you tried to misrepresent yourself as them or something. If they didn't exist when you registered it, "i wanted a domain with this name" is a totally legitimate reason. It's not like that changes because someone else comes along later, the vast majority of the time.
I know of people changing their business name to avoid having to buy a domain from someone like this because that shit is very hard to overcome.
posted by emptythought at 1:36 PM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would say 25k would be lowballing. Add another zero. 100k would not be out of line. This is a corporation that banks millions, if not in insurance billions. And this is basically the frontend of their brand in the 21st century. This domain is worth at least a reasonable portion of what they'd spend on an ad campaign.
You really need a lawyer or someone who is experienced in this field to advise you. They're REALLY hoping they can roll you for $1000 here.
The other thing is, if you've had this domain since before that company was even really operating under that name... you probably have a pretty ironclad ownership of it, unless you tried to misrepresent yourself as them or something. If they didn't exist when you registered it, "i wanted a domain with this name" is a totally legitimate reason. It's not like that changes because someone else comes along later, the vast majority of the time.
I know of people changing their business name to avoid having to buy a domain from someone like this because that shit is very hard to overcome.
posted by emptythought at 1:36 PM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you are getting bad advice here. The domain is yours and there is no issue with you owning it. You are free to sell it to whomever. Do not take $1,000 for it.
In a similar situation, Teamwork sat around for literally years negotiating the purchase of their .com domain and finally bought it for €500,000. I don't think you'll get that much any time soon, but I'd hold out for another 0 at least.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:30 PM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
In a similar situation, Teamwork sat around for literally years negotiating the purchase of their .com domain and finally bought it for €500,000. I don't think you'll get that much any time soon, but I'd hold out for another 0 at least.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:30 PM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
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Essentially for the UDRP proceeding itself, the three things that the insurance company would need to prove are:
1) your domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights - that is probably made out. You can't win there.
AND
2) you have no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name - that may or may not be. Why did you pick the name? Does it have an articulable link to you? (Things like: "this is actually my name" or "I carry on business under this name" are good examples. Let's assume you don't, but you might.
AND
3)your domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith. This is the tough question. Did you register the domain name before the company existed? Did you register it before they bought a lot of the other tlds? That helps show you're not acting in bad faith. On the other hand, the fact that you've owned it for 5+ years and not done anything with it is less good for you - if you have plans for it, you should be able to document those plans and why they haven't been implemented at all. If you don't have plans for it - why keep it?
Can't speak very far to your second point. No competitor would touch that domain with a ten-foot pole, I would think. They'd definitely get caught by a UDRP action, right?
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:17 AM on May 8, 2015 [5 favorites]