Can I Eat This, #3467

March 8, 2015 7:50 PM

Vacuum-packed smoked trout, unopened, two weeks until expiration, but inadvertently left at room temperature for 8 hours. It says "keep refrigerated", but they must figure on SOME time to get it home from the grocery store and into the fridge — is 8 hours too long?
posted by ubiquity to Food & Drink (15 answers total)

I wouldn't even hesitate.
posted by Bruce H. at 7:55 PM on March 8, 2015 [3 favorites]

Best answer: Eight hours isn't too long for many things, and even for most smoked things, but this is fish, and badly stored fish will fuck you up worse than almost any other food.

This PDF from Oregon State says:

It cannot be overemphasized that most smoked fish products, unless canned and sterilized by retorting, have about the same or slightly longer shelf life than fresh fish. Consequently, smoked fish should be handled, packaged and stored much like fresh fish. It should be kept frozen or under refrigeration just above freezing temperatures. While vacuum-packed smoked fish makes a beautiful package, it has the potential to be hazardous, because the organisms that normally provide visual and odor clues of spoilage are retarded in growth, while certain food-poisoning organisms, if present, are favored in outgrowth.

posted by maudlin at 8:03 PM on March 8, 2015 [8 favorites]

Even still, I would probably go ahead and eat it unless there seemed to be anything "off" about it. Obviously if you are immunocompromised for whatever reason you should be more conservative. I dunno.
posted by boomstick at 8:50 PM on March 8, 2015

Nope. It is garbage. Sorry. 8 hours in the Danger Zone for a non-sterilized product is not worth it at all.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:30 AM on March 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Assuming by room temperature you mean about 20 degrees Celsius, I would eat this without even thinking about it. It's smoked and the expiration date isn't for another two weeks. As you say, allowance for getting the stuff home is built into the system. And anyway, how do you think people lived for thousands of thousands of years before refrigeration?

I wouldn't think about it, at all. The thought process wouldn't be "Is it safe? Yes, it probably is"; the thought would be " " and then I would be eating.
posted by cincinnatus c at 5:13 AM on March 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is it cured and smoked cold or is it hot smoked without a cure. I am guessing it is cured and smoked a la lox and if so I wouldn't hesitate to eat it, assuming it passed a (very unscientific and not at all food safety advised but taste advised) sniff test. If it were hot smoked I would still eat it but with less confidence. Salted smoked meat is how things were stored before refrigeration so all of this talk about "The Danger Zone" and whether you are on or not on the highway to there is a bit irrelevant. Not completely irrelevant because the curing process used to use more salt, but there is less water in the fish than normal so it will slow spoilage. Think of it this way instead would you eat a sandwich that was left over from lunch for dinner?
posted by koolkat at 6:20 AM on March 9, 2015

Best answer: So if food safety expert I linked to is just blowing hot air (sorry), this info from people who MAKE smoked trout might be relevant:

Hot smoked trout, prepared by the method described and kept in a chill below 4°C, will keep in good condition for 1 week. At a temperature of 5-10°C they will remain wholesome and safe to eat for 2-3 days. Smoked trout should always be kept chilled or frozen throughout the distribution chain. Frozen smoked trout, properly wrapped, will keep in good condition for 12 months in cold storage at -30°C.

So IF you keep your house at a chilly 5-10 Celsius (that's 40-50 F), and IF the smoked trout was unwrapped, a sniff test would probably keep you safe. But if you have a typical overheated North American home, 8 hours is probably enough to get some microbes going, and the other ones that alert you that food is going off will have been greatly restrained by the vacuum packaging.

This is a modern hybrid processed food in a modern environment. This is not your great-great-great-grandfather's smoked, dried fish stored in a drafty Scottish hut.
posted by maudlin at 7:18 AM on March 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

Maudlin, that passage doesn't specify any period at all that the trout can go above 10°C, so it doesn't really answer the question.

Me, I would interpret "At a temperature of 5-10°C they will remain wholesome and safe to eat for 2-3 days" as further evidence that eight hours at 20°C will be just fine.
posted by cincinnatus c at 8:00 AM on March 9, 2015

I would not assume any predictable relationship between different time and temperature values as I am not a microbiologist or a food scientist. But my sources are saying KEEP REFRIGERATED and "If storage temperatures rise above 3° C, there is a risk that Clostridium botulinum may grow and produce toxins in some types of smoked fish. By removing air, vacuum or gas packaging can provide a favorable environment for the growth of this organism, while simultaneously suppressing the growth of molds and other aerobic microorganisms that might indicate improper storage."

I'm not saying that eating this fish would be a guaranteed lethal experience. Eating it immediately may cause no real illness, or it could cause the OP to be miserable enough to regret the experience. Storing it in the fridge again or even freezing it immediately may limit the damage or it may be too late. The amount of toxin produced in any of these scenarios may be enough to make one person sick while another may feel no ill effects.

Losing a few bucks worth of food versus going against scientific and commercial consensus warnings and eating it anyway is a decision the OP will have to make. I think it's more risk than a bit of smoked fish is worth, but maybe all the stars will align: the OP is uncommonly robust, the fish is only a little bad, and they feel few or no ill effects. I'd still put the same advice out here for the next person instead of making assumptions that would encourage them to gamble with their health.
posted by maudlin at 8:24 AM on March 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

But my sources are saying KEEP REFRIGERATED and "If storage temperatures rise above 3° C, there is a risk that Clostridium botulinum may grow and produce toxins in some types of smoked fish.

Yes, but according to this logic poor ubiquity would have to actually climb into his fridge to eat his trout just to be on the safe side.

It's usual to have refrigerated food - even foods that your sources say KEEP REFRIGERATED - at room temperature for a period before eating. It could be as little as a few seconds, or a few minutes on a plate. The question here is about what that safe period is.
posted by cincinnatus c at 8:44 AM on March 9, 2015

Best answer: Me, I would interpret "At a temperature of 5-10°C they will remain wholesome and safe to eat for 2-3 days" as further evidence that eight hours at 20°C will be just fine.

Me, I'm a chef and trained in food safety. When it comes to myself I'm pretty cavalier--I know my kitchen and I know my immune system. And this is something even I wouldn't mess with. 'Keep refrigerated' means it is not shelf-stable, and salted/smoked generally means that the moisture content is minimal while the salt content is extremely high, both of which impede bacterial growth.

The safe period for not being refrigerated is much, much less than eight hours for non-shelf-stable products. Much less.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 AM on March 9, 2015

It's usual to have refrigerated food - even foods that your sources say KEEP REFRIGERATED - at room temperature for a period before eating. It could be as little as a few seconds, or a few minutes on a plate. The question here is about what that safe period is.

I'm not recommending that anyone eat their food in the fridge. I'm saying that "smoked" and "vacuum packed" don't override "fish" when it comes to safety. Quoting again from my first source: "Consequently, smoked fish should be handled, packaged and stored much like fresh fish. "

Would you eat raw fish that had been left out at 20C for 8 hours? Probably not. I know that I certainly wouldn't.
posted by maudlin at 8:55 AM on March 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Thanks to everyone for their comments and thoughts. My main takeaway from this is that neither "vacuum-packed" nor "smoked" provide the kind of protection I was hoping they did, and that this fish is not much better than raw fish left out. We can argue about how much, but I wouldn't eat raw fish that had been left out in a warm (72° F/22° C) kitchen for four hours, let alone eight. I tossed it, and chalked the ten bucks up to food science tuition.
posted by ubiquity at 9:27 AM on March 9, 2015 [2 favorites]

Last year I ate half a smoked salmon eggs benny before I realized I wasn't imagining the off taste- the salmon had gone bad to the point of smelling gross. I was 100% totally fine, not even a tummy ache. Just a data point.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:00 AM on March 9, 2015

MeTa
posted by grouse at 5:21 AM on March 10, 2015