Generational impact of incest and intermarriage between cousins
October 23, 2014 7:02 PM Subscribe
My mother is convinced she is the product of an incentious relationship by her mother and her grandfather. Genetic testing proved inconclusice due to the poor quality of the samples available from her grandfather (my greatgrandfather) and her mother (my grandmother) as both were deceased by the time the testing was done.
My parents are first cousins (my maternal and my paternal grandmothers are sisters).
I have a child by my SO (not a relative). I constantly worry for his long-term health. This whole issue was extremly worrying to me during pregnancy, but I expected my worries to decrease once he is older, and especially as he continues to develop fine physically and mentally, developing right on target. He will soon turn 6 and I worry more than ever, every little quirk gives me sleepless nights.
Do you know of online resources on the effects this history of inbreeding might have on my son in the long term? Is my worry justified? Should I just let it go?
I live in Europe, in a predominately Catholic country were marriage among cousins was legal when my parents married.
I have adult siblings, one of which has very obvious mental issues (he lives in a home), and some physical problems but I am not legally entitled to know his diagnosis and he refuses to tell me. My guess is a spectrum disorder, some form of autism (I mention this only to give you an idea what my fears are).
The other sibling prefers not to be involved in any way, some mild social issues are obvious but they might just be from growing up in a dysfunctional family.
I myself have some social problems, fears, but no physical or mental issues (if I say so myself) at least not more than the average mother of a young child. I did some years in therapy for depression (about 10 yrs ago) and dealing with growing up in a dysfunctional family.
My mother claims that she herself was conceived from an incestous relationship her grandfather supposedly had with his adult daughter (my mother's mother). My mother attempted to have this proven by genetic testing several years ago but the difficulty is that the genetic material available was not of sufficient quality, so the result was ambigous. Both her mother and grandfather passed away decades ago so it is not possible to obtain better samples and repeat this.
The year in question is 1937 and no family member is alive anymore who was an adult then and might know. My father, who passed away some years ago, did believe her but not based on any fact, only his feeling (he did not know the grandfather in question).
So this whole angle might be rubbish. My mother is a very egocentric person and styling herself the product of incest serves a purpose in her personal life. She nver considered how this might make us, her children feel. She definitely does have some mental problems and is in treatment for those.
What worries me very much are my mother's claims that she herself has an autistic spectrum disorder ( I cannot find out if her treating doctors and therapists agree - the information is confidential) and her assertion that "all the men in our family have it too, including your dad and your son". During my pregnancy she predicted my son would turn out to be autistic. She keeps telling me that if she had known about her origin at the time of marriage she would not have married her cousin and how this is going to ruin my sons life now.
My son is not on the spectrum (I trust our pediatrian in this judgement), but I cannot seem to shake this nagging feeling that maybe something is wrong with him after all. When he turned four I was frantic, so fearful and noticed for the first time how it affects my attitue towards him. I am so afraid I see hints of mental illness in just normal behaviour.
I have considered having him tested against the advice of the pediatrician and will of his dad, but so far I decided against it as where we live such testing is not readily available privately and the pediatrician sees no need to put it in motion. She feels it would be too stressful and unjustified. My SO thinks I am hysterical. He knows my family background but is not worried by it. For example our son loves numbers, has always loved them and I only worry as I see his love for numbers as a bad sign instead of enjoying his pleasure. His maths skills are just right for his age, so it is just a preference not unusual talent.
I think what I need to do is to educate myself in order to put the demons at rest. I spend so much time observing our son and sleepless nights overthinking him, googling, interpreting, and I need to stop. Also, is this something I need to tell my son once he is old enough to father children? Would you tell him?
The internet is so full of information but I feel lost in sorting the chaff from the wheat and this is why I ask for your help.
What i am looking for are online resources or real books which help me understand the impact of close relative /first cousin parentage on the resulting children, and their children - with the possible addition of second generation inbreeding (if my mother's claims are true which no one knows).
I have no scientific background, scientific articles I found on Google Scholar were to difficult to comprehend. So I get stuck with the kitchen psychology and pseudo science.
I believe I have read just about any forum on autism or spectrum disorders - this is not helping me as it only feeds my fears.
So what I am looking for is something written for the lay person but by a reputable scholar - that would be fantastic.
PS - to anyone who feels I ought not to have had the child: he was unplanned and a total but very welcome surprise.
Do you know of online resources on the effects this history of inbreeding might have on my son in the long term? Is my worry justified? Should I just let it go?
I live in Europe, in a predominately Catholic country were marriage among cousins was legal when my parents married.
I have adult siblings, one of which has very obvious mental issues (he lives in a home), and some physical problems but I am not legally entitled to know his diagnosis and he refuses to tell me. My guess is a spectrum disorder, some form of autism (I mention this only to give you an idea what my fears are).
The other sibling prefers not to be involved in any way, some mild social issues are obvious but they might just be from growing up in a dysfunctional family.
I myself have some social problems, fears, but no physical or mental issues (if I say so myself) at least not more than the average mother of a young child. I did some years in therapy for depression (about 10 yrs ago) and dealing with growing up in a dysfunctional family.
My mother claims that she herself was conceived from an incestous relationship her grandfather supposedly had with his adult daughter (my mother's mother). My mother attempted to have this proven by genetic testing several years ago but the difficulty is that the genetic material available was not of sufficient quality, so the result was ambigous. Both her mother and grandfather passed away decades ago so it is not possible to obtain better samples and repeat this.
The year in question is 1937 and no family member is alive anymore who was an adult then and might know. My father, who passed away some years ago, did believe her but not based on any fact, only his feeling (he did not know the grandfather in question).
So this whole angle might be rubbish. My mother is a very egocentric person and styling herself the product of incest serves a purpose in her personal life. She nver considered how this might make us, her children feel. She definitely does have some mental problems and is in treatment for those.
What worries me very much are my mother's claims that she herself has an autistic spectrum disorder ( I cannot find out if her treating doctors and therapists agree - the information is confidential) and her assertion that "all the men in our family have it too, including your dad and your son". During my pregnancy she predicted my son would turn out to be autistic. She keeps telling me that if she had known about her origin at the time of marriage she would not have married her cousin and how this is going to ruin my sons life now.
My son is not on the spectrum (I trust our pediatrian in this judgement), but I cannot seem to shake this nagging feeling that maybe something is wrong with him after all. When he turned four I was frantic, so fearful and noticed for the first time how it affects my attitue towards him. I am so afraid I see hints of mental illness in just normal behaviour.
I have considered having him tested against the advice of the pediatrician and will of his dad, but so far I decided against it as where we live such testing is not readily available privately and the pediatrician sees no need to put it in motion. She feels it would be too stressful and unjustified. My SO thinks I am hysterical. He knows my family background but is not worried by it. For example our son loves numbers, has always loved them and I only worry as I see his love for numbers as a bad sign instead of enjoying his pleasure. His maths skills are just right for his age, so it is just a preference not unusual talent.
I think what I need to do is to educate myself in order to put the demons at rest. I spend so much time observing our son and sleepless nights overthinking him, googling, interpreting, and I need to stop. Also, is this something I need to tell my son once he is old enough to father children? Would you tell him?
The internet is so full of information but I feel lost in sorting the chaff from the wheat and this is why I ask for your help.
What i am looking for are online resources or real books which help me understand the impact of close relative /first cousin parentage on the resulting children, and their children - with the possible addition of second generation inbreeding (if my mother's claims are true which no one knows).
I have no scientific background, scientific articles I found on Google Scholar were to difficult to comprehend. So I get stuck with the kitchen psychology and pseudo science.
I believe I have read just about any forum on autism or spectrum disorders - this is not helping me as it only feeds my fears.
So what I am looking for is something written for the lay person but by a reputable scholar - that would be fantastic.
PS - to anyone who feels I ought not to have had the child: he was unplanned and a total but very welcome surprise.
The unsettling fact is we probably all have some family tree branches that are going straight up, which is both good news and bad news: Incest is taboo because in some cases it's related to child sexual abuse (as might have been the case if your mother's assertion is correct, even if the conception occured when she was an adult), and in ALL cases it can lead to genetic disorders as it happens generation after generation. But that doesn't mean that one incestuous conception renders everyone down the line highly suspect for genetic disorders.
And here's another thing that's really common, especially as the diagnosis seems to keep broadening: autism spectrum disorders. Not to get into all the politics about that, but it's called the autism spectrum precisely because most of us (and yeah, I think I'm somewhere on it myself, as is my wife and one of my sons) are highly functioning members of society.
I think your biggest problems are:
- your mother is gas-lighting you and preying on/feeding on your anxieties about your son,
- your chances of analyzing all this and doing the math and figuring out your son's percentage chances of having some problem are nil,
- and if your son is 6 and not showing any signs, well, I'm sorry but he may be neurotypical.
OK, that's a joke, but he's more likely to have anxiety over your anxiety than he is to develop problems because of incest between his grandmother and GREAT-grandfather. I know it's easier said than done, but please stop worrying about the genetics and concentrate on providing a nurturing environment - probably best one with minimal contact with his grandmother?
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:23 PM on October 23, 2014 [7 favorites]
And here's another thing that's really common, especially as the diagnosis seems to keep broadening: autism spectrum disorders. Not to get into all the politics about that, but it's called the autism spectrum precisely because most of us (and yeah, I think I'm somewhere on it myself, as is my wife and one of my sons) are highly functioning members of society.
I think your biggest problems are:
- your mother is gas-lighting you and preying on/feeding on your anxieties about your son,
- your chances of analyzing all this and doing the math and figuring out your son's percentage chances of having some problem are nil,
- and if your son is 6 and not showing any signs, well, I'm sorry but he may be neurotypical.
OK, that's a joke, but he's more likely to have anxiety over your anxiety than he is to develop problems because of incest between his grandmother and GREAT-grandfather. I know it's easier said than done, but please stop worrying about the genetics and concentrate on providing a nurturing environment - probably best one with minimal contact with his grandmother?
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:23 PM on October 23, 2014 [7 favorites]
I'm so sorry that you are going through this.
There are two separate issues here, and I would encourage you to address both of them.
For your specific questions about the possibility of genetic problems in your son, you should speak with a genetic counselor. This is a specific medical specialty. They will understand the statistical likelihood of problems from the scenario you are describing. They might also be able to recommend genetic testing for your son if they think that is warranted.
For your general anxiety, it sounds like you could benefit from therapy. As you report, your son is growing and healthy and developing in all the right ways. You expected your anxieties to diminish with time and yet they aren't. This is something that a therapist can help you with.
I would recommend taking both of these steps. Perhaps start with the therapist, to lay the groundwork and ensure that your conversations with the genetic counselor are done well and in a way that you can absorb.
Best of luck to you and to your son.
posted by alms at 7:23 PM on October 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
There are two separate issues here, and I would encourage you to address both of them.
For your specific questions about the possibility of genetic problems in your son, you should speak with a genetic counselor. This is a specific medical specialty. They will understand the statistical likelihood of problems from the scenario you are describing. They might also be able to recommend genetic testing for your son if they think that is warranted.
For your general anxiety, it sounds like you could benefit from therapy. As you report, your son is growing and healthy and developing in all the right ways. You expected your anxieties to diminish with time and yet they aren't. This is something that a therapist can help you with.
I would recommend taking both of these steps. Perhaps start with the therapist, to lay the groundwork and ensure that your conversations with the genetic counselor are done well and in a way that you can absorb.
Best of luck to you and to your son.
posted by alms at 7:23 PM on October 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
Being on the spectrum, as it were, is not all that uncommon--it's just we didn't have a name for it previously. The same is true of many mental health conditions. Both run in my family despite none of the genetic problems that you seem to be worried about. I have sensory integration problems but not an official diagnosis... and tend not to worry about it because I learned how to deal with most of the sensory stuff early. My sibling has significant social issues but has a good job and a wife and is perfectly happy. I have other mental health issues that have been a little tougher to deal with over time, but that would have probably not had a significant impact on my life if I'd been able to get proper treatment for them when they started getting bad in early adolescence. It's really not a big deal.
Tons and tons and tons of people have ASD, have bipolar, have depression, have anxiety, have all kinds of things like this and neither have any particularly questionable genetic history nor any particular problem functioning in the world with proper treatment. The thing you need to remember to keep the demons at rest is that pretty much everybody at some point in their life is going to end up with some physical or mental condition that causes them problems; you don't generally life to 100, healthy as a horse, then suddenly drop dead. If he turns out to have problems that seem to indicate mental health issues, take him to the doctor--just like you'd take him to the doctor if he had a temperature and an earache that wasn't going away.
Autism is occasionally significantly disabling, but if he's 6 and there's no sign of real problems yet then you're out of the woods on anything severe enough to be worried about. (Sibling had noticeable issues by elementary school and the worst I can say now is that he doesn't have many friends but seems fine with that.) Anxiety/depression/bipolar can show up later in life but are really quite common. Schizophrenia tends to wait until adulthood but I think if your brother was schizophrenic, you'd know. To be honest, what you sound like is a person with an anxiety problem, and you might yourself find help from therapy and medication? This doesn't seem much different than if you found yourself losing sleep over germs. The problem isn't going to be solved by reassuring you that your kid is safe; you need to talk to someone.
posted by Sequence at 7:24 PM on October 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Tons and tons and tons of people have ASD, have bipolar, have depression, have anxiety, have all kinds of things like this and neither have any particularly questionable genetic history nor any particular problem functioning in the world with proper treatment. The thing you need to remember to keep the demons at rest is that pretty much everybody at some point in their life is going to end up with some physical or mental condition that causes them problems; you don't generally life to 100, healthy as a horse, then suddenly drop dead. If he turns out to have problems that seem to indicate mental health issues, take him to the doctor--just like you'd take him to the doctor if he had a temperature and an earache that wasn't going away.
Autism is occasionally significantly disabling, but if he's 6 and there's no sign of real problems yet then you're out of the woods on anything severe enough to be worried about. (Sibling had noticeable issues by elementary school and the worst I can say now is that he doesn't have many friends but seems fine with that.) Anxiety/depression/bipolar can show up later in life but are really quite common. Schizophrenia tends to wait until adulthood but I think if your brother was schizophrenic, you'd know. To be honest, what you sound like is a person with an anxiety problem, and you might yourself find help from therapy and medication? This doesn't seem much different than if you found yourself losing sleep over germs. The problem isn't going to be solved by reassuring you that your kid is safe; you need to talk to someone.
posted by Sequence at 7:24 PM on October 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
Eh, I wouldn't worry about it. Even if your mom was the product of incest, you weren't (unless your mom married a relative, but I'm guessing not). Then your child is also outcrossed with a family who probably has a whole slew of mostly uncomplementary genetic issues.
I honestly can't remember exactly how it was said in genetics class, but I walked away assured that it would take dedication to not branching the family tree for the really horrible effects to start piling up.
Here's you an article that might help put your mind at ease, though.
Kissing Cousins OK
Also, sounds more like your issue is with your mother than with potential genetic issues...
posted by Trifling at 7:26 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I honestly can't remember exactly how it was said in genetics class, but I walked away assured that it would take dedication to not branching the family tree for the really horrible effects to start piling up.
Here's you an article that might help put your mind at ease, though.
Kissing Cousins OK
Also, sounds more like your issue is with your mother than with potential genetic issues...
posted by Trifling at 7:26 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
Sorry, one more thing - as has been pointed out, cousins marrying is a "mild" form of incest, with very little risk, which is why it was tolerated in so many cultures (not just Europe) for so long. With mobility being what it was in a lot of small towns in the 1800s and back, it would have been hard to find someone who was really no relation at all. IOW, if you have some cousins married up in your family tree, congrats, you're exactly like everyone else, ever. Humans are kinda/sorta tolerant or resistant to bad effects from this as long as there is some fresh blood entering the system.
It got very bad and led to a lot of problems in royal families because it was so concentrated and doubled-back on itself so much, due to the small number of candidates who were considered "worthy" to marry a royal in the old days. It took generations and generations of this to cause problems. Here's an article about one example.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:30 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
It got very bad and led to a lot of problems in royal families because it was so concentrated and doubled-back on itself so much, due to the small number of candidates who were considered "worthy" to marry a royal in the old days. It took generations and generations of this to cause problems. Here's an article about one example.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:30 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
Anecdata: I have a friend who has an Uncle Dad and he's mostly fine except for some low testosterone weirdness that may have nothing to do with him being the product of sibling incest. Given that the possible incest in your family occurred two generations back and thus would only affect ~25% of your son's genetic heritage (vs. 100% for my friend), I wouldn't worry about it too much.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:52 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 7:52 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm not geneticist, and hopefully a geneticist will come in and reassure you. However, my very very basic understanding of the issue with incest is that it makes it more likely that both partners will carry rare recessive genes. If both partners carry it and both pass them on to their children, then their children will get whatever those recessive genes cause, be it blue eyes or genetic disorders. So, given this, it would seem that your mother (by virtue of her own origins) and maybe you (by virtue of your mildly incestuous origins) would be at risk of having inherited two copies of a recessive gene. However, even if you did inherit two copies of some deadly recessive gene, you can only pass one copy on to your child. Your SO is not a relative, so it seems like your son is as unlikely to have a genetic disorder as any random person with no known incestuous origins.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:55 PM on October 23, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:55 PM on October 23, 2014 [8 favorites]
Oh, and your mother is messing with your head. I know she's your mom. I know you probably love her. But she's messing with your head, for her own reasons, whatever those are.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:56 PM on October 23, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:56 PM on October 23, 2014 [20 favorites]
Hoping you find peace with this, I want to emphasize that as long as you and your son's father are not related in any way to any degree, then your son is not the product of incest by common definitions. He also is not at high risk for the conditions typically related to incest, especially if he is "normal" at age 6 yrs.
Consider seeing a genetic counselor/geneticist now to review your concerns for your son and also to think about what screenings/tests* might be of interest to you prior to your next pregnancy if that's a consideration. Europe does not have nearly as many genetic counselors as in the USA so it might be more difficult to make a counseling appt. Your pedi should be able to refer you to one but if not Geneclinics has a clickable map to try to find local clinic. https://www.genetests.org/clinics/ if the link doesn't work. Tell them you want preconceptual counseling-this might get you in sooner with a RN or GC and then an appt with an MD for your son can be set up if needed. There is at least one telephone based genetic counseling service in the USA but I don't know if they accept European clients.
* There are a few of preconceptual screens that have become available in the last 6 yrs that assess a couple's risk for the more common genetic conditions. This is the most common one in the USA but it's an ever growing market. I'm not sure what's available in Europe.
posted by beaning at 7:59 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Consider seeing a genetic counselor/geneticist now to review your concerns for your son and also to think about what screenings/tests* might be of interest to you prior to your next pregnancy if that's a consideration. Europe does not have nearly as many genetic counselors as in the USA so it might be more difficult to make a counseling appt. Your pedi should be able to refer you to one but if not Geneclinics has a clickable map to try to find local clinic. https://www.genetests.org/clinics/ if the link doesn't work. Tell them you want preconceptual counseling-this might get you in sooner with a RN or GC and then an appt with an MD for your son can be set up if needed. There is at least one telephone based genetic counseling service in the USA but I don't know if they accept European clients.
* There are a few of preconceptual screens that have become available in the last 6 yrs that assess a couple's risk for the more common genetic conditions. This is the most common one in the USA but it's an ever growing market. I'm not sure what's available in Europe.
posted by beaning at 7:59 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have a genetic disease and a terrible family. Echoing the two separate issues thing. It may seem impossible to make these things two separate issues; one springs from the other! But, in fact, the narrative you're given about your genes and the scientific data about your genes are two WAY different things. You need to make two ways different decisions on how to deal with them. You can't make a decision about treating your son or having more children based on your mother's word or hearsay about family history that is (at best) filtered through deep trauma. Happily, you do not have to.
In my own family, I was fed a belief that I was defective for various reasons that were terribly abusive to say to a young kid - that my mother had discovered she was pregnant only after drinking heavily a couple times in the first trimester, just for one of many examples. Later, my family has denied that I am ill at all and reacted with immense hostility when contacted for genetic counseling (the counselor had never witnessed such vitriol).
You will never know your mother's parentage. That knowledge is not within your control or your mother's control. I suspect that's a subject of deep anxiety and that it makes her feel uncertain as well. Your mother should not be asking you to carry that burden for her or foisting it onto her grandson - that's horrifying and I can see why it would be upsetting. She is asking you to parent her and it sounds like she has for most of your life. That is not normal - it is also not an acceptable thing to do as a parent. She should have been shielding you from these concerns, not amplifying them. That is abuse, right there. I'd firm up boundaries about that -- and perhaps recognize the need for them. She is sucker punching you with the anxiety about autism. I get it - my mother was the exact same way, right along with adding shame to getting an answer (centering the talk of incest). I bet she would not be receptive to learning of actual genetic defects.
Finally, if you're gunshy about genetic issues of any kind, see a genetic counselor. They can give you information your mother has no access to, with no emotional abuse. It might resolve your anxiety. Think of it this way: many people wind up at genetic counselors because they were adopted or one birth parent is absent. You don't need the cooperation of anybody to test yourself, your partner and your son if you want to. That data is right there if you decide you want it.
posted by sweltering at 8:05 PM on October 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
In my own family, I was fed a belief that I was defective for various reasons that were terribly abusive to say to a young kid - that my mother had discovered she was pregnant only after drinking heavily a couple times in the first trimester, just for one of many examples. Later, my family has denied that I am ill at all and reacted with immense hostility when contacted for genetic counseling (the counselor had never witnessed such vitriol).
You will never know your mother's parentage. That knowledge is not within your control or your mother's control. I suspect that's a subject of deep anxiety and that it makes her feel uncertain as well. Your mother should not be asking you to carry that burden for her or foisting it onto her grandson - that's horrifying and I can see why it would be upsetting. She is asking you to parent her and it sounds like she has for most of your life. That is not normal - it is also not an acceptable thing to do as a parent. She should have been shielding you from these concerns, not amplifying them. That is abuse, right there. I'd firm up boundaries about that -- and perhaps recognize the need for them. She is sucker punching you with the anxiety about autism. I get it - my mother was the exact same way, right along with adding shame to getting an answer (centering the talk of incest). I bet she would not be receptive to learning of actual genetic defects.
Finally, if you're gunshy about genetic issues of any kind, see a genetic counselor. They can give you information your mother has no access to, with no emotional abuse. It might resolve your anxiety. Think of it this way: many people wind up at genetic counselors because they were adopted or one birth parent is absent. You don't need the cooperation of anybody to test yourself, your partner and your son if you want to. That data is right there if you decide you want it.
posted by sweltering at 8:05 PM on October 23, 2014 [4 favorites]
My initial thought was also to see a genetic counselor to be reassured. But to be honest, after thinking about it a little, I think this is not the right answer.
The fact is that no one can tell you that your son will not have mental health problems some day. Even people with zero history of incest in generations and zero family history of mental health issues can have them someday. Be honest with yourself, even if you read a scientific article that assured you that only 5% (or 0.5%) of children with a history of consanguinity in their great-grandparents had any kind of problem related to that fact, would that be enough to banish your fear? I suspect you'd just focus on the fact that your son might still have a problem. Because that's just a risk that people run by being born, none of us are exempt from the possibility, and I feel like nothing less than a zero probability is going to satisfy your worries.
It sounds like this really falls under the category of a fear/anxiety that goes beyond what you can rationalize yourself out of - not surprising given your mother's behavior over the years, which I'm so sorry you had to endure. I really think the ultimate answer is to treat your own anxiety and to seek therapy, rather than to try to find a scientific answer to this question when there likely isn't one that will be satisfying.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:06 PM on October 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
The fact is that no one can tell you that your son will not have mental health problems some day. Even people with zero history of incest in generations and zero family history of mental health issues can have them someday. Be honest with yourself, even if you read a scientific article that assured you that only 5% (or 0.5%) of children with a history of consanguinity in their great-grandparents had any kind of problem related to that fact, would that be enough to banish your fear? I suspect you'd just focus on the fact that your son might still have a problem. Because that's just a risk that people run by being born, none of us are exempt from the possibility, and I feel like nothing less than a zero probability is going to satisfy your worries.
It sounds like this really falls under the category of a fear/anxiety that goes beyond what you can rationalize yourself out of - not surprising given your mother's behavior over the years, which I'm so sorry you had to endure. I really think the ultimate answer is to treat your own anxiety and to seek therapy, rather than to try to find a scientific answer to this question when there likely isn't one that will be satisfying.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:06 PM on October 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
As a hopefully reassuring anecdote, I do my (not-genetics) research on a small island with a population of under 60 people, who are all descended from the same group of four people: one man and his three wives, two of whom were sisters. They have a very small gene pool. They have generally intermarried within the group, and it's been seven generations now. There is also a fair bit of direct incest within the nuclear families. And yet the islanders are mostly healthy and with few obvious genetic problems. Many of them have stutters and some vision problems (minor, correctable), and there is one instance of autism or similar (undiagnosed due to lack of doctor), which in a population of 50 is not that unlikely by pure coincidence.
I have asked various geneticists about this, because I was curious about how they "got away with it", and they've all said some version of what If only I had a penguin said above. Basically incest makes it more likely for bad genes to cause havoc, because kids inherit more copies of them, but if you don't have the bad genes int he first place, it's not such a problem. And if you do have genetic disorders, but they aren't recessive, then you are still likely to pass them on to your child even without the incest, so it's not the incest itself that is the problem. (Genetically speaking. Obviously it can be a problem psychologically or socially.)
posted by lollusc at 8:15 PM on October 23, 2014 [18 favorites]
I have asked various geneticists about this, because I was curious about how they "got away with it", and they've all said some version of what If only I had a penguin said above. Basically incest makes it more likely for bad genes to cause havoc, because kids inherit more copies of them, but if you don't have the bad genes int he first place, it's not such a problem. And if you do have genetic disorders, but they aren't recessive, then you are still likely to pass them on to your child even without the incest, so it's not the incest itself that is the problem. (Genetically speaking. Obviously it can be a problem psychologically or socially.)
posted by lollusc at 8:15 PM on October 23, 2014 [18 favorites]
It's more likely that your behavior in regard to this will be a problem than it is that the genetics themselves will be a problem... if researching on your own doesn't sort this out quickly, seek counseling, for your peace of mind and mental health.
posted by stormyteal at 9:22 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by stormyteal at 9:22 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, talk to a genetic counselor.
Please.
It'll be OK. I promise!!
posted by jbenben at 9:27 PM on October 23, 2014
Please.
It'll be OK. I promise!!
posted by jbenben at 9:27 PM on October 23, 2014
I was kind of with you in terms of feeling concern and then If I only had a penguin... reminded me that your son only gets one gene copy from you. So the fact that you might have two of some gene that was shared between your mom and her cousin, or that your mom might have two of some gene that was shared between her parents, actually is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to your son's genes. He only got one copy from you.
"Incest-related disease" doesn't pass down through generations like some great shadow following you. You're free! Your mom is haunted by the idea of all this 'inbreeding' but it actually doesn't work that way - as soon as you married out, you got your kids one set of genes from your family, and one set of genes from another family, just like every other person in the world.
posted by Lady Li at 9:35 PM on October 23, 2014 [9 favorites]
"Incest-related disease" doesn't pass down through generations like some great shadow following you. You're free! Your mom is haunted by the idea of all this 'inbreeding' but it actually doesn't work that way - as soon as you married out, you got your kids one set of genes from your family, and one set of genes from another family, just like every other person in the world.
posted by Lady Li at 9:35 PM on October 23, 2014 [9 favorites]
Even IF your mother was the product of incest, by the time it comes to your son the impact of those particular genes is diluted: you're talking about your son's double-great grandfather, after all. Now add in the fact that you actually have NOTHING but the word of your drama-queen mother about the whole thing, and the best thing I can recommend to you is to cut your mother out of your life, and talk to a therapist because she's come perilously close to the edge of emotionally abusing you.
Unless your mother is a medical professional and an expert on autism, WITH an official diagnosis on each person she's talking about, her claims about it "running in the family" are pure bullshit. Perhaps your sibling does have it, perhaps they don't: but even if --- and that's one huge "if"! --- they do, that proves nothing about anyone else. And your mother's long-after-the-fact claims about her grandfather.... Sheesh. It all sounds like your mother likes the attention she gets by making these claims, and how it keeps you chained to her.
Your son's love of numbers JUST means he loves numbers, nothing more --- heck, maybe you're raising the next Einstein! Math skills do NOT equal autism, it just indicates he has math skills. Listen to your pediatrician for medical info, not your drama-queen mother.
posted by easily confused at 4:23 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Unless your mother is a medical professional and an expert on autism, WITH an official diagnosis on each person she's talking about, her claims about it "running in the family" are pure bullshit. Perhaps your sibling does have it, perhaps they don't: but even if --- and that's one huge "if"! --- they do, that proves nothing about anyone else. And your mother's long-after-the-fact claims about her grandfather.... Sheesh. It all sounds like your mother likes the attention she gets by making these claims, and how it keeps you chained to her.
Your son's love of numbers JUST means he loves numbers, nothing more --- heck, maybe you're raising the next Einstein! Math skills do NOT equal autism, it just indicates he has math skills. Listen to your pediatrician for medical info, not your drama-queen mother.
posted by easily confused at 4:23 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think your mind and your family might be dealing with three different mental burdens here.
Europe has lots of cultural myths and stories about incest being wrong, wrong, wrong. ("It's a sin against God! The people who do it are depraved! The children will turn out corrupted and it will ruin their family as it ought to!") These cultural stores about incest follow us around today. Look at things like Game of Thrones, or historical dramas. It would be hard for you to escape this idea that your family might be tainted, when our culture tells so many stories about this.
We also have two modern stories about incest: There's the sociological/psychological, which says that incest is a bad because it screws up family structures and often allows the abuse of children or vulnerable family members. And this sociological/psychological story tells us that incest can cause family dysfunction even unto future generations. There's also the genetic/scientific story, which tells us the genetic mechanisms of incestuous reproduction, and which we often interpret as "Oh my god, children produced by incest will have all these bad genes!"--even though, as people above have pointed out, actual science tells us these risks are usually small.
Now, I don't know whether your anxiety has a cultural/religious component--but I do think that it's one possible piece of this, just because of European cultural history over the last few hundred years. Your P.S. assumes that people on the internet will say "Your child is tainted! You ought never to have had him!" and you need to reassure us that you didn't have him on purpose! Please believe me, you have not done anything wrong by having him--not to us, not to him.
It does sound to me, from your question, like your family has some dysfunctional ways of relating to one another. Whether this is from incest, none of us here can really say. And I think you may be unconsciously taking these cultural and social stories about incest, and perhaps extrapolating them into a genetic story--that if two apply, the third must also. (You say that your mother has mental issues, and perhaps some of your genetic anxiety might also be about that--no incest required, to worry about passing these things along.)
I'm not saying "oh, you've bought these stories and it's all in your head"--I'm offering a suggestion as to why this can be a difficult mental burden.
I think you should talk to a psychological counselor and a genetic counselor. You can get some really good, science-based reassurance from the genetic counselor, and the psychological counselor can help you with the dreadful anxiety and how to navigate this relationship with your mother (especially when you may never know "the truth" about her parentage). Sleepless nights, endless googling--you are right that you need to end this pattern. Please get some help with this. You have experienced the ways this kind of anxiety can affect a parent-child relationship, but you can learn healthy ways to cope and have a joyful relationship with your son.
posted by Hypatia at 5:37 AM on October 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Europe has lots of cultural myths and stories about incest being wrong, wrong, wrong. ("It's a sin against God! The people who do it are depraved! The children will turn out corrupted and it will ruin their family as it ought to!") These cultural stores about incest follow us around today. Look at things like Game of Thrones, or historical dramas. It would be hard for you to escape this idea that your family might be tainted, when our culture tells so many stories about this.
We also have two modern stories about incest: There's the sociological/psychological, which says that incest is a bad because it screws up family structures and often allows the abuse of children or vulnerable family members. And this sociological/psychological story tells us that incest can cause family dysfunction even unto future generations. There's also the genetic/scientific story, which tells us the genetic mechanisms of incestuous reproduction, and which we often interpret as "Oh my god, children produced by incest will have all these bad genes!"--even though, as people above have pointed out, actual science tells us these risks are usually small.
Now, I don't know whether your anxiety has a cultural/religious component--but I do think that it's one possible piece of this, just because of European cultural history over the last few hundred years. Your P.S. assumes that people on the internet will say "Your child is tainted! You ought never to have had him!" and you need to reassure us that you didn't have him on purpose! Please believe me, you have not done anything wrong by having him--not to us, not to him.
It does sound to me, from your question, like your family has some dysfunctional ways of relating to one another. Whether this is from incest, none of us here can really say. And I think you may be unconsciously taking these cultural and social stories about incest, and perhaps extrapolating them into a genetic story--that if two apply, the third must also. (You say that your mother has mental issues, and perhaps some of your genetic anxiety might also be about that--no incest required, to worry about passing these things along.)
I'm not saying "oh, you've bought these stories and it's all in your head"--I'm offering a suggestion as to why this can be a difficult mental burden.
I think you should talk to a psychological counselor and a genetic counselor. You can get some really good, science-based reassurance from the genetic counselor, and the psychological counselor can help you with the dreadful anxiety and how to navigate this relationship with your mother (especially when you may never know "the truth" about her parentage). Sleepless nights, endless googling--you are right that you need to end this pattern. Please get some help with this. You have experienced the ways this kind of anxiety can affect a parent-child relationship, but you can learn healthy ways to cope and have a joyful relationship with your son.
posted by Hypatia at 5:37 AM on October 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
It doesn't hurt to go talk to a genetic counselor, but I do believe your son is far enough removed that it wouldn't be any issue.
In my father's family, it was common for cousins to marry each other many moons ago, which I found out through extensive searches on my ancestry years ago, but had already known just through family members.
Does your mom have any medical issues steming from her suspected ancestry?
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 5:42 AM on October 24, 2014
In my father's family, it was common for cousins to marry each other many moons ago, which I found out through extensive searches on my ancestry years ago, but had already known just through family members.
Does your mom have any medical issues steming from her suspected ancestry?
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 5:42 AM on October 24, 2014
When he turned four I was frantic, so fearful and noticed for the first time how it affects my attitue towards him. I am so afraid I see hints of mental illness in just normal behaviour. ... He will soon turn 6 and I worry more than ever, every little quirk gives me sleepless nights.
Regardless of any genetic testing or genetic counselling outcomes, you must independently seek help to manage your anxiety. Your reactions here are disproportionate; appear to be affecting your parenting; and your attitude will affect your son.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:11 AM on October 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
Regardless of any genetic testing or genetic counselling outcomes, you must independently seek help to manage your anxiety. Your reactions here are disproportionate; appear to be affecting your parenting; and your attitude will affect your son.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:11 AM on October 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
Your son is fine. If you're planning on having more kids then seek genetic counseling. When your son is ready to have kids he can seek genetic counseling; by then such testing will be even better than it is today.
In the meantime, it sounds like your mother is toxic. You need to stand up to her and tell her you don't want to hear about this stuff any more, and that you do not want her talking about it to or near your son. If she cannot abide by that then you should consider cutting her off for a while.
You could use some help with your anxiety, I hope you will see a therapist.
posted by mareli at 7:08 AM on October 24, 2014
In the meantime, it sounds like your mother is toxic. You need to stand up to her and tell her you don't want to hear about this stuff any more, and that you do not want her talking about it to or near your son. If she cannot abide by that then you should consider cutting her off for a while.
You could use some help with your anxiety, I hope you will see a therapist.
posted by mareli at 7:08 AM on October 24, 2014
IANAD, but speaking as someone who's dealt with a lot of anxiety in my life, it sounds to me like you could benefit from going back to therapy.
Even if your fears turned out to be justified (which, for the reasons others have given above, doesn't seem too likely) you would still need to deal with your anxiety about it in order to take care of your child - you;ve already noticed yourself that it's affecting your relationship.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:10 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Even if your fears turned out to be justified (which, for the reasons others have given above, doesn't seem too likely) you would still need to deal with your anxiety about it in order to take care of your child - you;ve already noticed yourself that it's affecting your relationship.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:10 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Take a deep breath. Relax. Go find a professional to work with on your anxiety.
And don't tell your mother anything about it.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:42 PM on October 24, 2014
And don't tell your mother anything about it.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:42 PM on October 24, 2014
I don't think you have anything to worry about on the genetic front, but talking to a genetic counselor would probably be useful in helping arrange your thoughts on this question.
It definitely sounds like your mom is troubled, and is trying to trouble you. ("I'm sure your unborn son will be on the spectrum" is high level drama provoking behavior.) Once you've talked to a genetic counselor and gotten your factual fears assuaged -- shoot, even if you don't get them assuaged -- I think it'd be good to start working on how to get mental boundaries with your mom, so she is less able to press your buttons, because it sounds like she's a button-smasher. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Good luck with it.
posted by feets at 9:42 PM on October 24, 2014
It definitely sounds like your mom is troubled, and is trying to trouble you. ("I'm sure your unborn son will be on the spectrum" is high level drama provoking behavior.) Once you've talked to a genetic counselor and gotten your factual fears assuaged -- shoot, even if you don't get them assuaged -- I think it'd be good to start working on how to get mental boundaries with your mom, so she is less able to press your buttons, because it sounds like she's a button-smasher. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Good luck with it.
posted by feets at 9:42 PM on October 24, 2014
p.s. : things your mom doesn't know with certainty:
1. That she was the child of her mother and grandfather.
2. If she really IS on the autism spectrum, that the cause of that was genetic. (There are non-genetic causes.)
3. That the genetic cause was somehow amplified or "turned on" by the incest and intermarrying.
4. That all the men in your family "have it too." Your siblings won't tell you what their doctors say, I bet they certainly won't tell her.
5. That your son has it, despite showing no sign of it.
6. That it would ruin his life if he did have it.
What you CAN know with certainty is that she is causing you a lot of pain for no good reason.
posted by feets at 9:54 PM on October 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
1. That she was the child of her mother and grandfather.
2. If she really IS on the autism spectrum, that the cause of that was genetic. (There are non-genetic causes.)
3. That the genetic cause was somehow amplified or "turned on" by the incest and intermarrying.
4. That all the men in your family "have it too." Your siblings won't tell you what their doctors say, I bet they certainly won't tell her.
5. That your son has it, despite showing no sign of it.
6. That it would ruin his life if he did have it.
What you CAN know with certainty is that she is causing you a lot of pain for no good reason.
posted by feets at 9:54 PM on October 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
So, I'd read those things to learn more. That said, from an outsider's perspective your mom has put The Fear in you and the level of anxiety that you are having about this seems outside the range of "I'm just nervous" The medical experts think your son is okay. You think he's okay. The level of worrying you are trying to manage is out of scale to the actual problem. Many people live totally fulfilled lives on the autism spectrum. You seem to be perseverating on this to a degree that it's affecting your relationship with your son. In addition to this research I'd like to gently suggest stress management for yourself because whatever your son's life turns out to be like, he'll do better with a mother who can be supportive and less fearful about whatever the world has in store. Your mom seems to be a toxic element in this equation, seek to minimize her effects on your mental well being.
posted by jessamyn at 7:16 PM on October 23, 2014 [40 favorites]