How do I move on?
October 11, 2014 9:07 AM Subscribe
I'm at a crossroads in my long-term relationship. We've been dating for 2.5 years. He's been trustworthy and I've been extremely happy in this relationship. I'm 30 f, he's 31 m. We live together.
Things changed a few weeks back...
A few weeks ago, I looked through his phone (intuition is really the only solid reason I can tie it to. He'd been traveling for a few weeks and I wanted to see what he'd been up to). In his group chats with his guy friends, they are all exchanging images & links to x-rated photos (porn, celebrity nudes and such). The conversations from him and his friends were jarring to me.
I confronted him, since I felt that I can't trust him anymore. I admitted to looking at his phone, etc. After a few days of fighting and anger, we talked about the issues:
1) his trust in me, and why I felt the need to snoop. He said that he can look past it and that he will trust me to not look through his phone etc. I think we both feel this is resolved.
2) my trust in him: he apologized for me having to read those conversations. I was (am still) so shocked to find out this is what goes on (and has been long before I met him). His stance since has been: all my friends' wives/gfs accept this. Why don't you? This is what all guys do...
We spent a few days apart out of town. I spent the time reflecting and thinking. In talking to my gfs, I was told 'yeah, guys are pigs, this is what they do', along with 'you can snoop but you pretty much can't do anything 99% of the time, so you stop'. Fundamentally, I feel like I can look past this and deal with it. Now that we're back at home, I am having a hard time feeling any love or warmth towards him. It's been 2 weeks and I'm walking around yoying between numbness and anger. I told him that I need time.
This is my first real and serious relationship. There have been no fundamental issues up till now. I need help putting this in perspective. I prefer to try to work this out. I don't want to be controlling nor feel like I'm settling. I generally have low emotional eq.
Please help give me some perspective.
A few weeks ago, I looked through his phone (intuition is really the only solid reason I can tie it to. He'd been traveling for a few weeks and I wanted to see what he'd been up to). In his group chats with his guy friends, they are all exchanging images & links to x-rated photos (porn, celebrity nudes and such). The conversations from him and his friends were jarring to me.
I confronted him, since I felt that I can't trust him anymore. I admitted to looking at his phone, etc. After a few days of fighting and anger, we talked about the issues:
1) his trust in me, and why I felt the need to snoop. He said that he can look past it and that he will trust me to not look through his phone etc. I think we both feel this is resolved.
2) my trust in him: he apologized for me having to read those conversations. I was (am still) so shocked to find out this is what goes on (and has been long before I met him). His stance since has been: all my friends' wives/gfs accept this. Why don't you? This is what all guys do...
We spent a few days apart out of town. I spent the time reflecting and thinking. In talking to my gfs, I was told 'yeah, guys are pigs, this is what they do', along with 'you can snoop but you pretty much can't do anything 99% of the time, so you stop'. Fundamentally, I feel like I can look past this and deal with it. Now that we're back at home, I am having a hard time feeling any love or warmth towards him. It's been 2 weeks and I'm walking around yoying between numbness and anger. I told him that I need time.
This is my first real and serious relationship. There have been no fundamental issues up till now. I need help putting this in perspective. I prefer to try to work this out. I don't want to be controlling nor feel like I'm settling. I generally have low emotional eq.
Please help give me some perspective.
I have a lot of questions about your question.
What exactly was jarring to you about the conversations he was having with his guy friends? Were they remarking that naked women are hot or did it go beyond that into "wrecking bitches" territory? Some porn or pornographic images may be okay--or okay with you anyway--and some may be wildly not okay with you. Where do you draw the line?
What are the real issues here? You seem to have discovered that your man is a misogynist and you have trust issues in your relationship. Is that right? Are either of those deal-breakers for you? (Honestly, I'd try to stay and work through the trust issues, but blatant misogyny would send me packing.)
Your question, "How do I move on?" has two meanings, doesn't it? It can mean "How do I move on from this relationship?" or "How do I move on from this incident?" (If it's the latter, I wonder why you didn't ask, "How can I get past this?") So is your question in this case really your answer. Do you want to move on from this relationship?
posted by GoLikeHellMachine at 9:21 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
What exactly was jarring to you about the conversations he was having with his guy friends? Were they remarking that naked women are hot or did it go beyond that into "wrecking bitches" territory? Some porn or pornographic images may be okay--or okay with you anyway--and some may be wildly not okay with you. Where do you draw the line?
What are the real issues here? You seem to have discovered that your man is a misogynist and you have trust issues in your relationship. Is that right? Are either of those deal-breakers for you? (Honestly, I'd try to stay and work through the trust issues, but blatant misogyny would send me packing.)
Your question, "How do I move on?" has two meanings, doesn't it? It can mean "How do I move on from this relationship?" or "How do I move on from this incident?" (If it's the latter, I wonder why you didn't ask, "How can I get past this?") So is your question in this case really your answer. Do you want to move on from this relationship?
posted by GoLikeHellMachine at 9:21 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I know the easiest thing emotionally might be to try to accept it because you don't want to lose a guy who makes you feel good 80% of the time and a guy you've invested in...
BUT
All guys don't share/discuss their porn habits with their guy friends. Really immature and obnoxious guys do. He's going to insist he's right and it's normal but he's not right.
You don't like it, you don't have to like it. You have to do what contributes to you feeling good.
I feel like I can look past this and deal with it. Now that we're back at home, I am having a hard time feeling any love or warmth towards him
I don't blame you. I think there you have it. This secret side of him he never shared with you voluntarily because he knows it's weird and you wouldn't like it---so he hid it from you.
He'll probably hide a lot of things he does that he knows you would disrespect and then do them anyway. He's not trustworthy.
(Btw, the sharing x rated images----the guys who I've met who do this are extremely immature and self-righteous about it.)
Take some time away from him and decide if you can still love him, if you're still comfortable sleeping with him, if you can respect him. If you can't, that's okay.
posted by discopolo at 9:23 AM on October 11, 2014 [49 favorites]
BUT
All guys don't share/discuss their porn habits with their guy friends. Really immature and obnoxious guys do. He's going to insist he's right and it's normal but he's not right.
You don't like it, you don't have to like it. You have to do what contributes to you feeling good.
I feel like I can look past this and deal with it. Now that we're back at home, I am having a hard time feeling any love or warmth towards him
I don't blame you. I think there you have it. This secret side of him he never shared with you voluntarily because he knows it's weird and you wouldn't like it---so he hid it from you.
He'll probably hide a lot of things he does that he knows you would disrespect and then do them anyway. He's not trustworthy.
(Btw, the sharing x rated images----the guys who I've met who do this are extremely immature and self-righteous about it.)
Take some time away from him and decide if you can still love him, if you're still comfortable sleeping with him, if you can respect him. If you can't, that's okay.
posted by discopolo at 9:23 AM on October 11, 2014 [49 favorites]
1) Good. Hopefully it is resolved and you can move past this part. You know that snooping was wrong, he forgives you, great.
2) Did you know he looked at porn? The conversations clearly were a surprise; how do you feel about the things he said to his friends? Certain things would be deal breakers for me but without getting into specifics (which I don't think you need to do here), it's hard to say. Again, not all guys do this, so if it's not okay with you, it's just not and you don't really need to justify yourself to him. My kneejerk reaction to "all my friends' wives/gfs accept this" is to be all "yeah, well, if they all wanted to jump off a bridge I wouldn't be okay with that, either." For me, porn and the resulting conversations (which, again, I can only imagine but to me seem disturbing to you) would be and is a deal breaker.
The blanket "guys are pigs" is such a disgusting trope. No, they aren't all pigs and you know that or you wouldn't be asking this question. There are perfectly wonderful men out there who don't approve of porn and who do not, under any circumstances, talk about porn with their friends. You have to decide if you're okay with it because your guy does do this and apparently sees it as no big deal.
posted by cooker girl at 9:25 AM on October 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
2) Did you know he looked at porn? The conversations clearly were a surprise; how do you feel about the things he said to his friends? Certain things would be deal breakers for me but without getting into specifics (which I don't think you need to do here), it's hard to say. Again, not all guys do this, so if it's not okay with you, it's just not and you don't really need to justify yourself to him. My kneejerk reaction to "all my friends' wives/gfs accept this" is to be all "yeah, well, if they all wanted to jump off a bridge I wouldn't be okay with that, either." For me, porn and the resulting conversations (which, again, I can only imagine but to me seem disturbing to you) would be and is a deal breaker.
The blanket "guys are pigs" is such a disgusting trope. No, they aren't all pigs and you know that or you wouldn't be asking this question. There are perfectly wonderful men out there who don't approve of porn and who do not, under any circumstances, talk about porn with their friends. You have to decide if you're okay with it because your guy does do this and apparently sees it as no big deal.
posted by cooker girl at 9:25 AM on October 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
I am not sure on reading this what your problem is. Is it that he looks at porn? Is it that he looks at porn without telling you? Is it that he talks to his friends about porn?
I believe it's true that most people look at porn. (I don't think this is wrong or makes someone 'a pig'.) So if this is not something you're OK with, you'd need to state that up front when dating or be prepared for your partner to not be OK with not looking at porn.
Be warned though, that it is very unusual for an American man to not look at porn, even when in a relationship.
If your problem is their attitude towards women, or if the celebrity nudes were the hacked ones recently in the news... I would be seiouslu questioning the ethics and morality of this person and seriously consider if I am willing to date someone who's willing to think/treat/fantasize about another human being that way.
posted by ethidda at 9:27 AM on October 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
I believe it's true that most people look at porn. (I don't think this is wrong or makes someone 'a pig'.) So if this is not something you're OK with, you'd need to state that up front when dating or be prepared for your partner to not be OK with not looking at porn.
Be warned though, that it is very unusual for an American man to not look at porn, even when in a relationship.
If your problem is their attitude towards women, or if the celebrity nudes were the hacked ones recently in the news... I would be seiouslu questioning the ethics and morality of this person and seriously consider if I am willing to date someone who's willing to think/treat/fantasize about another human being that way.
posted by ethidda at 9:27 AM on October 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
Not all guys share porn with their buddies. I certainly don't, but wouldn't be surprised if some do. Many/most men do view pornography, relationship or otherwise, and don't consider that a form of infidelity. Many men and women masturbate to thoughts of someone or something other than their SO, even if they don't view pornography. People (men/women) have sexual fantasies, which they may or may not share with their partners. Is any/all of that jarring for you? As a matter of perspective these things are probably quite common, and I strongly disagree with the above comment that this is a de facto sign of not being trustworthy.
But whether you're comfortable with these things or not is really up to you to contemplate and decide. What other people accept and are ok with is really not very relevant. If this relationship isn't for you, and you have clearly defined issues with any of the above, then you will need a strategy to address these issues sooner rather than later in future potential relationships.
posted by drpynchon at 9:28 AM on October 11, 2014 [9 favorites]
But whether you're comfortable with these things or not is really up to you to contemplate and decide. What other people accept and are ok with is really not very relevant. If this relationship isn't for you, and you have clearly defined issues with any of the above, then you will need a strategy to address these issues sooner rather than later in future potential relationships.
posted by drpynchon at 9:28 AM on October 11, 2014 [9 favorites]
And let me emphasize: my understanding of your question is that you're okay with him looking at porn but the rude/gross conversations and sharing/engaging in chats about it are what really bother you about this.
Is that what you mean? Because using/looking at porn isn't in itself bad but the discussion and sharing with friends/having macho gross "I'd do her" is nasty.
posted by discopolo at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Is that what you mean? Because using/looking at porn isn't in itself bad but the discussion and sharing with friends/having macho gross "I'd do her" is nasty.
posted by discopolo at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: His stance since has been: all my friends' wives/gfs accept this. Why don't you? This is what all guys do...
Regardless of what all of his friends’ partners think (or what your bf’s friends choose to believe), that argument is bullshit. This isn’t ABOUT his friends’ partners, it’s about what YOU (his partner) think and feel. And this is what should matter to him in this discussion. The fact that he's not responding to your worries concerns me.
Also, FWIW, the whole sharing of porn thing grosses me out, too. There's something really objectifying about the whole thing, as if women could/should be shared around amongst friends. Ugh!
posted by twill at 9:30 AM on October 11, 2014 [40 favorites]
Regardless of what all of his friends’ partners think (or what your bf’s friends choose to believe), that argument is bullshit. This isn’t ABOUT his friends’ partners, it’s about what YOU (his partner) think and feel. And this is what should matter to him in this discussion. The fact that he's not responding to your worries concerns me.
Also, FWIW, the whole sharing of porn thing grosses me out, too. There's something really objectifying about the whole thing, as if women could/should be shared around amongst friends. Ugh!
posted by twill at 9:30 AM on October 11, 2014 [40 favorites]
Is he initiating these conversations? Is he sending the pictures or receiving them? The way email works for me is that I cannot control what my friends send me. When I am on a chain email with my male friends, I can follow the conversation and not participate.
posted by 724A at 9:35 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by 724A at 9:35 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Are you saying that the "jarring" nature of the conversations you snooped is what affected your trust in him? I don't think I've ever seen "jarring" and "trust" set up in opposition like this before, are you sure you aren't rationalizing your trust-breaking snooping?
posted by rhizome at 9:35 AM on October 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 9:35 AM on October 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
My read on the situation is that the text conversations are probably the most disturbing aspect, since they likely reveal a whole side to his personality that was previously hidden, forcing you to imagine if he's always like that when women aren't around. And that feels a lot more potentially intractable than negotiating whether you are or aren't comfortable with him looking at the images themselves.
Also, while it might be true that his friends' partners accept that his friends look at porn, it seems less likely that they've seen those sorts of conversations and, after seeing them, that they have no problem with them. It feels like he's trying to conflate the two issues.
posted by nobody at 9:38 AM on October 11, 2014 [7 favorites]
Also, while it might be true that his friends' partners accept that his friends look at porn, it seems less likely that they've seen those sorts of conversations and, after seeing them, that they have no problem with them. It feels like he's trying to conflate the two issues.
posted by nobody at 9:38 AM on October 11, 2014 [7 favorites]
Best answer: It may be common for men to look at porn. All the men I've dated have, and it was never a sticking point in our relationships. YMMV.
Trading porn with your friends like baseball cards and group chatting about it is gross, objectifying, and childish, and I do not think it's acceptable behavior. That kind of casual misogyny can't help but bleed over into other aspects of his life, including your relationship. Your feelings are valid.
posted by fireandthud at 9:38 AM on October 11, 2014 [50 favorites]
Trading porn with your friends like baseball cards and group chatting about it is gross, objectifying, and childish, and I do not think it's acceptable behavior. That kind of casual misogyny can't help but bleed over into other aspects of his life, including your relationship. Your feelings are valid.
posted by fireandthud at 9:38 AM on October 11, 2014 [50 favorites]
Your decision to snoop was an egregious violation of trust, and, in my opinion, a far more serious transgression than his looking at porn and having lewd conversations with his guy friends.
Trust me, most guys look at porn and talk to their male friends differently than they would talk to their partners. Of course, there are exceptions and who knows, you might find one. But if that's going to be the standard you set, be prepared for a lot of disappointment. Good men have the decency not to bring that sort of thing home or otherwise deliberately expose their partners to it.
The best thing you can do for yourself is to not snoop on him or future partners, unless you have concrete reasons to suspect actual infidelities or worse.
posted by seymourScagnetti at 9:38 AM on October 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
Trust me, most guys look at porn and talk to their male friends differently than they would talk to their partners. Of course, there are exceptions and who knows, you might find one. But if that's going to be the standard you set, be prepared for a lot of disappointment. Good men have the decency not to bring that sort of thing home or otherwise deliberately expose their partners to it.
The best thing you can do for yourself is to not snoop on him or future partners, unless you have concrete reasons to suspect actual infidelities or worse.
posted by seymourScagnetti at 9:38 AM on October 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm ok with him watching porn. We watch it together sometimes. I didn't know that him and his friends shared that. That's where my trust has been shaken. What was jarring about the conversations were the comments being made about the photos (photos of porn were shared along with the stolen celebrity photos).
To clarify my issue: I did not know he and his friends talked/ shared porn.
To be clear: I want some perspective from impartial parties so I can decide what I would like to do: work on this relationship or end it.
I apologize for over generalizing with 'all guys are pigs' because I know that is not true.
Thank you all for your responses so far.
posted by KB.Boston_implant.By way of NY at 9:40 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
To clarify my issue: I did not know he and his friends talked/ shared porn.
To be clear: I want some perspective from impartial parties so I can decide what I would like to do: work on this relationship or end it.
I apologize for over generalizing with 'all guys are pigs' because I know that is not true.
Thank you all for your responses so far.
posted by KB.Boston_implant.By way of NY at 9:40 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Teenage boys share porn, and might even "enjoy" it together...
Adult men who do this deserve to be shamed and dumped. Grow up!
posted by General Tonic at 9:44 AM on October 11, 2014 [8 favorites]
Adult men who do this deserve to be shamed and dumped. Grow up!
posted by General Tonic at 9:44 AM on October 11, 2014 [8 favorites]
Okay, so that's good to know. I would be disgusted by the sharing and the comments, too. He didn't seem remorseful or willing to stop? That would be breakup time for me. It's okay for this to be a deal breaker for you, regardless of what he says or what your friends say. You don't have to stay in a relationship that makes you uncomfortable because other people don't seem to have a problem with what he's doing. You do, and that's all that matters.
Now, if he wants to keep the relationship and work on it, fine. If your ultimatum is that he no longer shares porn/nudes with his friends and he's okay with that, great. You've worked through it. If, however, he refuses...well....I would leave the relationship because it would be clear to me that he valued this part of his life (the sharing, etc.) over your perfectly valid feelings about it.
posted by cooker girl at 9:48 AM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
Now, if he wants to keep the relationship and work on it, fine. If your ultimatum is that he no longer shares porn/nudes with his friends and he's okay with that, great. You've worked through it. If, however, he refuses...well....I would leave the relationship because it would be clear to me that he valued this part of his life (the sharing, etc.) over your perfectly valid feelings about it.
posted by cooker girl at 9:48 AM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm having trouble seeing the sharing of porn (which I personally do not do with my friends) as a trust issue. Did he tell his friends details about what you watch together, or anything about you at all? That is, is it really all about just the act of sharing divorced from everything but the porn aspect?
For the record, not knowing about something that your SO talks to his friends about, or the way that they do it, to me this is not in and of itself a breach of trust.
posted by rhizome at 9:50 AM on October 11, 2014 [14 favorites]
For the record, not knowing about something that your SO talks to his friends about, or the way that they do it, to me this is not in and of itself a breach of trust.
posted by rhizome at 9:50 AM on October 11, 2014 [14 favorites]
I looked through his phone (intuition is really the only solid reason I can tie it to. He'd been traveling for a few weeks and I wanted to see what he'd been up to).
This is the only violation of trust I see in your question. I second seymourScagnetti. Your boyfriend has not shown that he is not trustworthy.
I am still confused after reading your follow-up. You don't mind if she watches pornography, but he isn't allowed to talk about it with his friends? What else is he not allowed to discuss with his friends? I've been married 13 years but it would never occur to me to police what my wife discusses with her friends. It's none of my business.
Regardless of what I might think of the actual behavior, your boyfriend was being discreet and keeping it out of your view. I was expecting to find that you were suspicious of an affair, but you were admittedly just were keeping tabs on him. That is remarkably controlling behavior, more especially towards his sexuality. Enjoying pornography in this way is a part of his sexuality and I see no reason why he should be shamed for it. Of course, if you are not comfortable being with a man who enjoys pornography in this way, that is fine. However, the pickings will probably be very slim from now on if you insist on that condition.
posted by Tanizaki at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2014 [21 favorites]
This is the only violation of trust I see in your question. I second seymourScagnetti. Your boyfriend has not shown that he is not trustworthy.
I am still confused after reading your follow-up. You don't mind if she watches pornography, but he isn't allowed to talk about it with his friends? What else is he not allowed to discuss with his friends? I've been married 13 years but it would never occur to me to police what my wife discusses with her friends. It's none of my business.
Regardless of what I might think of the actual behavior, your boyfriend was being discreet and keeping it out of your view. I was expecting to find that you were suspicious of an affair, but you were admittedly just were keeping tabs on him. That is remarkably controlling behavior, more especially towards his sexuality. Enjoying pornography in this way is a part of his sexuality and I see no reason why he should be shamed for it. Of course, if you are not comfortable being with a man who enjoys pornography in this way, that is fine. However, the pickings will probably be very slim from now on if you insist on that condition.
posted by Tanizaki at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2014 [21 favorites]
If it involves the stolen celebrity photos, that would be a huge red flag. Jennifer Lawrence has referred to the theft as a sex crime, and for a guy not to get why sharing those images is skeevy as hell, it would be hard to believe he respects women.
posted by alphanerd at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2014 [37 favorites]
posted by alphanerd at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2014 [37 favorites]
A few weeks ago, I looked through his phone (intuition is really the only solid reason I can tie it to. He'd been traveling for a few weeks and I wanted to see what he'd been up to)
You've been dating for 2.5 years, everything has been great, yet rather than talk to him about what he's been up to, you go behind his back to read conversations he's having with his friends.
There are some fundamental issues with either you, him or the relationship when your choice is to go snooping rather than talking. I would suggest putting serious thought into why you felt the need to do this. Is he not trustworthy on some level? Do you have low self esteem issues? What?
We watch it together sometimes. I didn't know that him and his friends shared that. That's where my trust has been shaken.
Can you clarify here? Is the problem that your boyfriend is sharing the fact that you two watch porn and the specific movies you watch? Or is it just a matter that he and friends are sharing porn links and tidbits and that is something you thought only y'all did together? If the latter, do you ever sit and discuss your relationship with girlfriends?
Overall, I'd say it's fairly common that heterosexual men and women talk smack about the other sex when with their same sex friends, where smack can encompass a wide areas, from porn to discussing what movie stars you'd love to sex with to actual relationship problem. This doesn't mean everyone does it or is comfortable with it occurring, but it tends to happen.
It's completely ok if you don't like and/or don't want to do that. But if so, you need to have a discussion with your boyfriend about your feelings and whether he's on board. There's a line that you didn't know existed, so you have to figure out where it is now and why it's there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2014 [7 favorites]
You've been dating for 2.5 years, everything has been great, yet rather than talk to him about what he's been up to, you go behind his back to read conversations he's having with his friends.
There are some fundamental issues with either you, him or the relationship when your choice is to go snooping rather than talking. I would suggest putting serious thought into why you felt the need to do this. Is he not trustworthy on some level? Do you have low self esteem issues? What?
We watch it together sometimes. I didn't know that him and his friends shared that. That's where my trust has been shaken.
Can you clarify here? Is the problem that your boyfriend is sharing the fact that you two watch porn and the specific movies you watch? Or is it just a matter that he and friends are sharing porn links and tidbits and that is something you thought only y'all did together? If the latter, do you ever sit and discuss your relationship with girlfriends?
Overall, I'd say it's fairly common that heterosexual men and women talk smack about the other sex when with their same sex friends, where smack can encompass a wide areas, from porn to discussing what movie stars you'd love to sex with to actual relationship problem. This doesn't mean everyone does it or is comfortable with it occurring, but it tends to happen.
It's completely ok if you don't like and/or don't want to do that. But if so, you need to have a discussion with your boyfriend about your feelings and whether he's on board. There's a line that you didn't know existed, so you have to figure out where it is now and why it's there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2014 [7 favorites]
so I can decide what I would like to do: work on this relationship or end it.
It sounds like you did try to work on it and he dismissed your concerns as not valid and "all the other girls are cool girlfriends, why aren't you?" Unless you missed a telling a more nuanced conversation, that he did something outside your value system is one problem, that he dismissed your concerns as not valid is another, deeper problem. The first problem is surmountable but the second is a deal breaker for most people. I would try one more conversation where the porn-sharing is not the topic; his dismissal of your concerns is, and see if he can see your point of view. Otherwise this is going to keep coming up, differing expectations and values are par for the course in any relationship. But each time he will assume his expectation/value is the "correct" one and see no reason to have to consider you may be different. You *really* don't want this to come up about parenting, or prioritizing one person's career, or deeper involvement with families of origin.
posted by saucysault at 10:06 AM on October 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
It sounds like you did try to work on it and he dismissed your concerns as not valid and "all the other girls are cool girlfriends, why aren't you?" Unless you missed a telling a more nuanced conversation, that he did something outside your value system is one problem, that he dismissed your concerns as not valid is another, deeper problem. The first problem is surmountable but the second is a deal breaker for most people. I would try one more conversation where the porn-sharing is not the topic; his dismissal of your concerns is, and see if he can see your point of view. Otherwise this is going to keep coming up, differing expectations and values are par for the course in any relationship. But each time he will assume his expectation/value is the "correct" one and see no reason to have to consider you may be different. You *really* don't want this to come up about parenting, or prioritizing one person's career, or deeper involvement with families of origin.
posted by saucysault at 10:06 AM on October 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
Most guys do not do this.
I don't know what your boyfriend is talking about with that.
posted by jbenben at 10:09 AM on October 11, 2014 [8 favorites]
I don't know what your boyfriend is talking about with that.
posted by jbenben at 10:09 AM on October 11, 2014 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Like you, I would not be comfortable knowing my partner regularly engaged in whoo-I'd-do-her conversations with a bunch of guys over porn for a whole bunch of reasons stemming from living in the work of casual sexism and every day misogyny.
But what would make me REALLY uncomfortable would be the "Every body else's girlfriend is cool with it" response to mentioning my discomfort. To my mind, that heightens the casual sexism of the whole thing. It divides women into sex objects, women who are totally cool with being and accepting women as sex objects (and trading cards) and women who are wrong.
Perhaps that's not your partner's thinking. Either way, "everybody else does it" is no way to respond to your statement that something bothers you and what can we do to work through it.
By the way, in my relationship, there would be no violation of trust in my husband picking up my phone and thumbing through the pictures or texts--although he would pretty much ask first, because that's polite. (He might have an actual reason to do so--he was looking for the one picture or some information in a text. "Curiosity" or "intuition" would not really be a reason to do so, but in any event, neither of us feels OMG TRUST VIOLATION because one or the other of us looked at the other's phone.) Anyway. If that was a violation of a boundary in your relationship and you were, as you've indicated, able to work through it, you should be able to work through this, too.
If you can't, it may just be a dealbreaker for you, which sucks and is going to be tough, but is not going to make you Wrong or a Bad Person, just one who realized she's not interested in a partner who objectifies women through the sorts of conversations you saw. That's okay and I don't think it's unusual. I don't think it's at all unusual for men to like porn and naked ladies without being demeaning about it, either.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:09 AM on October 11, 2014 [50 favorites]
But what would make me REALLY uncomfortable would be the "Every body else's girlfriend is cool with it" response to mentioning my discomfort. To my mind, that heightens the casual sexism of the whole thing. It divides women into sex objects, women who are totally cool with being and accepting women as sex objects (and trading cards) and women who are wrong.
Perhaps that's not your partner's thinking. Either way, "everybody else does it" is no way to respond to your statement that something bothers you and what can we do to work through it.
By the way, in my relationship, there would be no violation of trust in my husband picking up my phone and thumbing through the pictures or texts--although he would pretty much ask first, because that's polite. (He might have an actual reason to do so--he was looking for the one picture or some information in a text. "Curiosity" or "intuition" would not really be a reason to do so, but in any event, neither of us feels OMG TRUST VIOLATION because one or the other of us looked at the other's phone.) Anyway. If that was a violation of a boundary in your relationship and you were, as you've indicated, able to work through it, you should be able to work through this, too.
If you can't, it may just be a dealbreaker for you, which sucks and is going to be tough, but is not going to make you Wrong or a Bad Person, just one who realized she's not interested in a partner who objectifies women through the sorts of conversations you saw. That's okay and I don't think it's unusual. I don't think it's at all unusual for men to like porn and naked ladies without being demeaning about it, either.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:09 AM on October 11, 2014 [50 favorites]
The porn thing may be a red herring. You had your reasons – things he said, tones of voice, stuff you've noticed – to look in his phone. It's there you should be looking, not at your feelings about different kinds of porn. Something is not quite right and you knew it. Something's off. Look there.
posted by zadcat at 10:10 AM on October 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by zadcat at 10:10 AM on October 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
This isn't what all guys do. My husband doesn't do this - he doesn't have any porn habit at all. Let alone one he shares with his friends.
Some men will tell you that "all guys do this" as a way to shut you down and shame you for your valid thoughts and opinions. That's what he did. If you've been with this guy for 2.5 years and this was a completely hidden side of his personality that seems insanely out of character from the person he presents himself as - that's a problem. He's hiding things from you, for one reason or another. If you really didn't have a clue this sort of thing was part of his personality, that'd worry me.
I realize that people have different expectations out of their partners, but I would have never married my husband if he thought this was an okay way for a grown man to act. Pretty sure he wouldn't have married me if I were up to something similar.
This is part of how your partner views women, that you were not aware of. It's okay to be upset that someone is not who you thought he was. I'd be truly alarmed if I found out my husband were engaging with the fappening bullshit (if that's what you mean by "celebrity nudes").
Also, the phone snooping is a red herring. No, it's not good to snoop through a person's private stuff. I disagree that it is a worse "crime" than being the kind of douchebag who hur-hurs about naked ladies with his buddies when he's 31 fucking years old - and then tries to pull that disrespectful "whatever, MOM, all men do this so shove it" bullshit.
On preview, seconding crush-onastick and zadcat.
posted by Coatlicue at 10:11 AM on October 11, 2014 [34 favorites]
Some men will tell you that "all guys do this" as a way to shut you down and shame you for your valid thoughts and opinions. That's what he did. If you've been with this guy for 2.5 years and this was a completely hidden side of his personality that seems insanely out of character from the person he presents himself as - that's a problem. He's hiding things from you, for one reason or another. If you really didn't have a clue this sort of thing was part of his personality, that'd worry me.
I realize that people have different expectations out of their partners, but I would have never married my husband if he thought this was an okay way for a grown man to act. Pretty sure he wouldn't have married me if I were up to something similar.
This is part of how your partner views women, that you were not aware of. It's okay to be upset that someone is not who you thought he was. I'd be truly alarmed if I found out my husband were engaging with the fappening bullshit (if that's what you mean by "celebrity nudes").
Also, the phone snooping is a red herring. No, it's not good to snoop through a person's private stuff. I disagree that it is a worse "crime" than being the kind of douchebag who hur-hurs about naked ladies with his buddies when he's 31 fucking years old - and then tries to pull that disrespectful "whatever, MOM, all men do this so shove it" bullshit.
On preview, seconding crush-onastick and zadcat.
posted by Coatlicue at 10:11 AM on October 11, 2014 [34 favorites]
A fair number of men I know share porn with each other; I know this because once in a while one of them will include me on some mass email forward, but never with any comment other than "check this out," and if people reply they aren't hitting reply-all. It's only older men who do this to me (the younger ones might just be more careful about who to include in their forwards; I have definitely seen the younger guys where I work showing each other photos etc on their phones, for example).
So yeah, sharing porn is reasonably common but not at all universal, and I'll agree with the people above who have said that the conversations sound like they could be way more gross and uncomfortable (and at least in my experience, a lot more unusual). Is it just sort of "hey check this out" with a bit of "I'd hit that," or is it really misogynistic stuff?
celebrity nudes and such
Personally I'd have a different reaction to screenshots of nude scenes from movies (i.e. nudity meant to be public, more or less) versus hacked or upskirt photos. My own thoughts on the hacked images were really changed by the discussion here and in some articles I read that week – if they were sharing those images weeks later, after the ethics of it were completely clear, I'd think a lot worse of them than if they were swapping the photos the day the release happened.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:13 AM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
So yeah, sharing porn is reasonably common but not at all universal, and I'll agree with the people above who have said that the conversations sound like they could be way more gross and uncomfortable (and at least in my experience, a lot more unusual). Is it just sort of "hey check this out" with a bit of "I'd hit that," or is it really misogynistic stuff?
celebrity nudes and such
Personally I'd have a different reaction to screenshots of nude scenes from movies (i.e. nudity meant to be public, more or less) versus hacked or upskirt photos. My own thoughts on the hacked images were really changed by the discussion here and in some articles I read that week – if they were sharing those images weeks later, after the ethics of it were completely clear, I'd think a lot worse of them than if they were swapping the photos the day the release happened.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:13 AM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Everybody's going to draw and quarter you for snooping in his phone as if that is the most important thing by far in this situation, and tell you that in punishment for snooping you should stay with him and put up with it even if you are not happy with what you know now.
An alternate perspective: My husband and I do not do things behind each other's backs that we wouldn't be willing to own up to to each other's faces. Because we don't want to be garbage humans.
There *are* things we leave alone - he doesn't read any of my writing unless it's a) published, or b) given to him to read. When he goes in his office to shoot a video (comedy stuff, usually) I turn a fan up in my office because it makes him hideously self-conscious to think I can hear him. But if I was in a coma and he had to go through my computer to find my insurance information, I'd be mortified by my bad writing but perfectly proud to stand up for having written it, if you get the difference.
But I know that anything I do in my email or text messages, or in the bathroom or alone in my car or at work, those things are not secured and he could see them deliberately or accidentally, or have to come across them for emergency purposes. If they're so unpleasant that I know he'd not be comfortable with them...I shouldn't do them. For the good of the relationship.
It is fine to not be okay with his behavior, and to additionally not be okay with his response. But unfortunately the outcome of not being okay is you being willing to leave. It doesn't give you any free pass to force him to change.
(And I have a standing invitation to hang out in his groupme with his dude friends. I find chat makes me cranky and distracted so I almost never do, but mostly they talk about clothes and video games and web accessibility and philosophy. The most embarrassing thing to see in there are the really bad puns. Not all guys masturbate socially, it's not something you are obligated to be okay with.)
posted by Lyn Never at 10:13 AM on October 11, 2014 [37 favorites]
An alternate perspective: My husband and I do not do things behind each other's backs that we wouldn't be willing to own up to to each other's faces. Because we don't want to be garbage humans.
There *are* things we leave alone - he doesn't read any of my writing unless it's a) published, or b) given to him to read. When he goes in his office to shoot a video (comedy stuff, usually) I turn a fan up in my office because it makes him hideously self-conscious to think I can hear him. But if I was in a coma and he had to go through my computer to find my insurance information, I'd be mortified by my bad writing but perfectly proud to stand up for having written it, if you get the difference.
But I know that anything I do in my email or text messages, or in the bathroom or alone in my car or at work, those things are not secured and he could see them deliberately or accidentally, or have to come across them for emergency purposes. If they're so unpleasant that I know he'd not be comfortable with them...I shouldn't do them. For the good of the relationship.
It is fine to not be okay with his behavior, and to additionally not be okay with his response. But unfortunately the outcome of not being okay is you being willing to leave. It doesn't give you any free pass to force him to change.
(And I have a standing invitation to hang out in his groupme with his dude friends. I find chat makes me cranky and distracted so I almost never do, but mostly they talk about clothes and video games and web accessibility and philosophy. The most embarrassing thing to see in there are the really bad puns. Not all guys masturbate socially, it's not something you are obligated to be okay with.)
posted by Lyn Never at 10:13 AM on October 11, 2014 [37 favorites]
I (male) would find it distasteful to the point of wanting to end friendships with male friends who related to pornography this way. It's one thing for someone to occasionally use it in the context of sexual fantasy, but collecting, trading and discussing as regular social behavior -- especially if it included material stolen from some celebrity's personal life -- represents a level of casual sexual objectification I wouldn't want to hang around with.
posted by ead at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2014 [44 favorites]
posted by ead at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2014 [44 favorites]
I don't know what exactly is disturbing about this for you because you've not been very specific. For me, it would depend on the tone of the conversation. I personally have zero issue with pornography but I would not want to share my body or my life with a man who's talk about women in any context was disrespectful, reductionist, fratty, bro cultued denigration of women. I would be shocked and feel betrayed on a deep and irretriveable level to discover my partner indulged in that.
So again, I don't know if that is what is going on here, but if it is I can assure you it is not okay with "all their wives/gfs." Individual women may indeed be fine with porn consumption, but I very much doubt your partner is in a position to say how those women feel about the tone and content of private conversations around porn consumption to which they are not privvy.
Anyway, if the above was indeed the scenario discovered, I'd be out of there. I'm very sorry.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
So again, I don't know if that is what is going on here, but if it is I can assure you it is not okay with "all their wives/gfs." Individual women may indeed be fine with porn consumption, but I very much doubt your partner is in a position to say how those women feel about the tone and content of private conversations around porn consumption to which they are not privvy.
Anyway, if the above was indeed the scenario discovered, I'd be out of there. I'm very sorry.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
(Which is to say: none of my male friends do this)
posted by ead at 10:20 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by ead at 10:20 AM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, the discussion about the phone snooping should have gone like "Woah, what's going on in our relationship that made you feel so uncomfortable that you needed to look at my phone? Let's talk about this."
If it was more like "Damn it, why were you poking around on my phone? Don't you know that is wrong?", that isn't good and you aren't being heard. (Yes, snooping isn't great, but the danger to the relationship is in feeling uncomfortable, not in the snooping itself. Once you get to the point of snooping, the trust is long gone.)
posted by Dip Flash at 10:31 AM on October 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
If it was more like "Damn it, why were you poking around on my phone? Don't you know that is wrong?", that isn't good and you aren't being heard. (Yes, snooping isn't great, but the danger to the relationship is in feeling uncomfortable, not in the snooping itself. Once you get to the point of snooping, the trust is long gone.)
posted by Dip Flash at 10:31 AM on October 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
Everybody's going to draw and quarter you for snooping in his phone as if that is the most important thing by far in this situation...
That instance of snooping is important in this case because rather than talk to him or ask, she simply went looking. It's also clear from her post that he's not comfortable with her going through his phone on whims and had trusted her not to do so. That may not be the case in every relationship, but it was the case in theirs.
Whether his lack of comfort level with this is a sign of something else is definitely a question worth considering though.
For the record, I've been married 15 years and I'm not crazy about my wife just picking up my phone and going through it because I tend to be a private person. This doesn't mean she doesn't occasionally do it, 1.) just to amuse herself by messing with me or 2.) she's looking for info that one of our friends texted just to me or something completely reasonable. Still it bugs me, and she knows it, so she tells or asks me and I'm like "sure, whatever" because she had the courtesy to recognize my boundary, so cool. Plus we have been together for years, so it's not a big deal. Yes, the boundary applies in reverse, where if she asks or tells me to get something out of her purse, I'll usually just bring it to her, 'cause hey, why the hell should be rooting around through her purse? Marriage doesn't mean a person has to give up any expectation of privacy or boundaries.
But obviously, this is what works for us, which may be different from the OP and that's totally fine. But I do think it's important to take both parties requests/boundaries in consideration, as in any relationship.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:42 AM on October 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
That instance of snooping is important in this case because rather than talk to him or ask, she simply went looking. It's also clear from her post that he's not comfortable with her going through his phone on whims and had trusted her not to do so. That may not be the case in every relationship, but it was the case in theirs.
Whether his lack of comfort level with this is a sign of something else is definitely a question worth considering though.
For the record, I've been married 15 years and I'm not crazy about my wife just picking up my phone and going through it because I tend to be a private person. This doesn't mean she doesn't occasionally do it, 1.) just to amuse herself by messing with me or 2.) she's looking for info that one of our friends texted just to me or something completely reasonable. Still it bugs me, and she knows it, so she tells or asks me and I'm like "sure, whatever" because she had the courtesy to recognize my boundary, so cool. Plus we have been together for years, so it's not a big deal. Yes, the boundary applies in reverse, where if she asks or tells me to get something out of her purse, I'll usually just bring it to her, 'cause hey, why the hell should be rooting around through her purse? Marriage doesn't mean a person has to give up any expectation of privacy or boundaries.
But obviously, this is what works for us, which may be different from the OP and that's totally fine. But I do think it's important to take both parties requests/boundaries in consideration, as in any relationship.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:42 AM on October 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
I think his behavior is distasteful, but I also don't really see it as an automatic dumping situation for a relationship that has generally been good. In your situation, I would look into some short term counseling to sort out my own feelings about what happened, and then ask the boyfriend to do a few sessions of couples counselling. Just frame it as "look, this upset me a lot more than maybe you think it should have, but it still upset me and I have to deal with that."
If he didn't know this would be an issue for you, AND if he shows a willingness to work with you and move past this, it may not be the end of the world. Again, I wouldn't be saying this if you guys hadn't already had a good relationship prior to this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
If he didn't know this would be an issue for you, AND if he shows a willingness to work with you and move past this, it may not be the end of the world. Again, I wouldn't be saying this if you guys hadn't already had a good relationship prior to this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
end the relationship. you deserve a guy who doesn't look at porn, if that's your pleasure (and you get to unilaterally define your pleasures in a relationship) and he deserves a nice lady who won't spy on him. you said he forgave you for that, but you know he's thinking about better infosec, two-factor authentication and other means to keep his private secrets secret. a good SO will never lie to you, but he does get to reserve some matters behind the veil of discretion, just as you do.
posted by bruce at 11:04 AM on October 11, 2014
posted by bruce at 11:04 AM on October 11, 2014
I'd like to see a social norm where your email, phone, etc is expected to be shared with your SO once you get serious. But unless and until that happens, snooping is a significant violation of trust. People are right to scold you on that.
Not all dudes share porn, but it's not that uncommon either. I have people in my circle of friends that every once in a while have a weekend where they get ripped on cheap beer, play splatter video games and watch porn clips together. These are all 40ish guys, most with families.
I don't think sharing porn is a problem in itself, but if your boyfriend is presenting a false face to you about what kind of person he is, that is a big problem.
From the fact that you have watched porn together, he did not rush to explain it away or promise never to do it again, and you describe yourself as low emotional eq, it sounds to me like he has not been deceiving you, and you just assumed he wouldn't do something like this because ew yuk.
I don't see that your boyfriend has done anything wrong, and wanting to break up over this seems like an overreaction to me. But you do know him better now than you used to, and it appears that at least in some ways you didn't know him that well. I'd at least give it a couple more weeks to settle in your mind before breaking up, if that's the way you're leaning.
If this ends up being a deal breaker for you, I think you should address it specifically sooner in your next relationship.
posted by mattu at 11:10 AM on October 11, 2014
Not all dudes share porn, but it's not that uncommon either. I have people in my circle of friends that every once in a while have a weekend where they get ripped on cheap beer, play splatter video games and watch porn clips together. These are all 40ish guys, most with families.
I don't think sharing porn is a problem in itself, but if your boyfriend is presenting a false face to you about what kind of person he is, that is a big problem.
From the fact that you have watched porn together, he did not rush to explain it away or promise never to do it again, and you describe yourself as low emotional eq, it sounds to me like he has not been deceiving you, and you just assumed he wouldn't do something like this because ew yuk.
I don't see that your boyfriend has done anything wrong, and wanting to break up over this seems like an overreaction to me. But you do know him better now than you used to, and it appears that at least in some ways you didn't know him that well. I'd at least give it a couple more weeks to settle in your mind before breaking up, if that's the way you're leaning.
If this ends up being a deal breaker for you, I think you should address it specifically sooner in your next relationship.
posted by mattu at 11:10 AM on October 11, 2014
I think people are a little confused by the idea of the trust issue. The way I read this, OP feels that porn is something that belongs within the confines of a romantic relationship, or at least the confine's of one's own sexual fantasy. The sharing of porn and commenting on it with friends represents a weird breach of porn's place in the world for the boyfriend and a window perhaps into how he views women. Now OP feels like she doesn't really know her significant other as well as she thought she did and she can't trust him.
I don't have much experience with men since I am a lesbian, but this doesn't sound like something "all" men do. Particularly that they were trading the stolen celebrities photos, I know many men have agreed that it's abhorrent anyone would violate these women's privacy like that.
Anyway, I think probably more important is the response. You said something made you uncomfortable and he seemed more interested in telling you to get over it than trying to work through some sort of resolution. I understand that maybe he got defensive because he was embarrassed by his boorish behavior, but it's also possible he may really not see it as a big deal and maybe he thinks you're the one who has the problem. I would talk to him again about it and be honest about what you are feeling. He should care that this bothers you. He should be able to see why it does bother you. And he should want to reassure you. See what he says and how that goes. Either you'll come away feeling worse or better about the situation.
For what it's worth, I really don't think "snooping" is that big of a deal.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:17 AM on October 11, 2014 [8 favorites]
I don't have much experience with men since I am a lesbian, but this doesn't sound like something "all" men do. Particularly that they were trading the stolen celebrities photos, I know many men have agreed that it's abhorrent anyone would violate these women's privacy like that.
Anyway, I think probably more important is the response. You said something made you uncomfortable and he seemed more interested in telling you to get over it than trying to work through some sort of resolution. I understand that maybe he got defensive because he was embarrassed by his boorish behavior, but it's also possible he may really not see it as a big deal and maybe he thinks you're the one who has the problem. I would talk to him again about it and be honest about what you are feeling. He should care that this bothers you. He should be able to see why it does bother you. And he should want to reassure you. See what he says and how that goes. Either you'll come away feeling worse or better about the situation.
For what it's worth, I really don't think "snooping" is that big of a deal.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:17 AM on October 11, 2014 [8 favorites]
I don't find any of Husbunny's hobbies or interests disgusting. FWIW, neither he, nor any of his buddies are into porn, naked celebrities or anything that degrades women. In fact, all of the men that I'm friends with respect women and would never speak disparaging about women or to women or objectify women.
The doesn't preclude porn BTW, there are women making porn (Annie Sprinkles) and some genuinely erotic and fun porn.
You don't have to settle for this kind of man, if you don't like this behavior. I wouldn't. I'd shake his hand and tell him, "you're a good guy over all, and I wish you nothing but the best. I'm just looking for something different in a partner."
And with nothing but happiness in my heart, I'd be off on my next romantic adventure.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:58 AM on October 11, 2014 [7 favorites]
The doesn't preclude porn BTW, there are women making porn (Annie Sprinkles) and some genuinely erotic and fun porn.
You don't have to settle for this kind of man, if you don't like this behavior. I wouldn't. I'd shake his hand and tell him, "you're a good guy over all, and I wish you nothing but the best. I'm just looking for something different in a partner."
And with nothing but happiness in my heart, I'd be off on my next romantic adventure.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:58 AM on October 11, 2014 [7 favorites]
My first reaction is that if he says "all the other wives and girlfriends are okay with it"- how on earth he knows this, and why couldn't he be open and honest with you, assuming all the other partners involved accept this sort of thing? Anyway, I can't think of a time my partner or I ever used the excuse "all the other X are okay with Y, therefore what the hell is your problem?" That's not part of a mature conversation, and to be fair, neither is looking through his phone instead of just asking outright what he's been up to. In my experience, my worst behavior toward other partners came about as sort of a joint exercise in crappiness to each other that was part of a bigger problem. Maybe step back and look at the larger picture, and see if you can figure out why neither one of you is treating the other with the respect they should.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:13 PM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by oneirodynia at 12:13 PM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
This kind of "porn sharing" is something that many men do. It's a "guy thing", like poker night, locker room talk, guy's night out, and so forth.
The kind of "porn" they are sharing should be distinguished from the kind of porn that your guy truly finds erotic. In my experience, the vast majority of men won't share the porn they really like with their friends. They don't want their friends to give them grief about having an Enormous Breast fetish, etc.
It sounds like you ran across some discussion of pics from the recent "Fappening" incident. Did you find any discussions of motorcycles, sports cars, or sports-related crap? Maybe not, but again in my experience (and I'm old, BTW), I'd bet they're in there somewhere[1]. it's a very similar thing: the content of the photos means less than the witty banter between the guys. Did they make rough, X-rated jokes amongst themselves? One-upping each other? Welcome to guys hanging out with other guys.
The question is: do you want a guy who acts like this? That's up to you. But in case you're wondering: he's almost stunningly normal in this regard. You can ask him not to do it anymore, but frankly, that's a move that's really not going to make you look good. You were happy with the guy for 2.5 years not knowing about this. If you can, I'd advise forgetting about this as best you can and just let him have his little virtual man-cave time with his buddies.
Consider this: if you ask him to stop it, you're inviting in a whole gobby mess of future problems with secrecy and privacy, he'll get an email from his pals and think "Damn, I've got to delete this before she catches me with it!" etc. Is that how you want it to be?
[1] No, don't go looking for them. Geez, if you guys are together in a month and he hasn't put a passcode on his phone, then you may be dating a saint.
posted by doctor tough love at 12:17 PM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
The kind of "porn" they are sharing should be distinguished from the kind of porn that your guy truly finds erotic. In my experience, the vast majority of men won't share the porn they really like with their friends. They don't want their friends to give them grief about having an Enormous Breast fetish, etc.
It sounds like you ran across some discussion of pics from the recent "Fappening" incident. Did you find any discussions of motorcycles, sports cars, or sports-related crap? Maybe not, but again in my experience (and I'm old, BTW), I'd bet they're in there somewhere[1]. it's a very similar thing: the content of the photos means less than the witty banter between the guys. Did they make rough, X-rated jokes amongst themselves? One-upping each other? Welcome to guys hanging out with other guys.
The question is: do you want a guy who acts like this? That's up to you. But in case you're wondering: he's almost stunningly normal in this regard. You can ask him not to do it anymore, but frankly, that's a move that's really not going to make you look good. You were happy with the guy for 2.5 years not knowing about this. If you can, I'd advise forgetting about this as best you can and just let him have his little virtual man-cave time with his buddies.
Consider this: if you ask him to stop it, you're inviting in a whole gobby mess of future problems with secrecy and privacy, he'll get an email from his pals and think "Damn, I've got to delete this before she catches me with it!" etc. Is that how you want it to be?
[1] No, don't go looking for them. Geez, if you guys are together in a month and he hasn't put a passcode on his phone, then you may be dating a saint.
posted by doctor tough love at 12:17 PM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
You know, I disagree that "all men do this" or "all men are like this" or "it's what men do, get used to it." My husband doesn't, and it isn't a case of "oh, RogueTech is just delusional and he just hides it really well." No. He doesn't do it. He's not into rough, crude X rated jokes and although I've heard him discuss porn with his male friends, it more along the lines of what do you prefer or what sites do you like or do you store stuff on your computer vs. searching out something new every time or hey, you know in some cases I prefer hentai for my more hardcore stuff because at least that way, it's not a real live human being potentially being exploited.
I would be really upset if I'd found what you found, OP. And I would be doubly upset if my husband said something along the lines of, "everybody else is ok with it, why aren't you?" because that is shaming you and silencing you. Also, I would be worried that maybe those attitudes he expressed bled over into how he views me - like maybe he views me as a thing and not a person. And if he doesn't view me as a thing and not a person, then I'd be worried about being with a guy who could separate women out so easily - this group of women get to be people, but this group of women get to be demeaned and objectified is also not a cool approach to life.
I'm putting myself in your shoes and it's just an icky feeling all the way around. I really sympathize with you, OP, and you have an internet stranger's permission to break it off.
posted by RogueTech at 12:30 PM on October 11, 2014 [21 favorites]
I would be really upset if I'd found what you found, OP. And I would be doubly upset if my husband said something along the lines of, "everybody else is ok with it, why aren't you?" because that is shaming you and silencing you. Also, I would be worried that maybe those attitudes he expressed bled over into how he views me - like maybe he views me as a thing and not a person. And if he doesn't view me as a thing and not a person, then I'd be worried about being with a guy who could separate women out so easily - this group of women get to be people, but this group of women get to be demeaned and objectified is also not a cool approach to life.
I'm putting myself in your shoes and it's just an icky feeling all the way around. I really sympathize with you, OP, and you have an internet stranger's permission to break it off.
posted by RogueTech at 12:30 PM on October 11, 2014 [21 favorites]
2) my trust in him: he apologized for me having to read those conversations. I was (am still) so shocked to find out this is what goes on (and has been long before I met him). His stance since has been: all my friends' wives/gfs accept this. Why don't you? This is what all guys do...
It seems hard for the hive here to read what exactly is your issue. Maybe because you don’t know yourself, because of the low emotional eq so you can't convey it any better in the ask. You are feeling distant though, and neither you nor your guy (maybe also low e-iq) ask the all-important question: why be suspicious in the first place?
For how long has he been gone on the trip? Was it the first time in your relationship that you’ve been apart for this amount of time? Was there a specific reason why he was traveling but not with you, and how did you feel about that etc? You say you don’t mind the watching of porn, but you find it shocking that he did this even long before he met you, with others.
Did you snoop on his phone before? Or just this time, because you were feeling anxious, and then more distrust/anxiousness/distance because you discovered your intimate thing (watching porn) was not and had not been exclusive between you. I get the feeling you lost the feeling of intimacy by some events, maybe the trip, maybe the way he kept contact during the trip. What were you scared or convinced to find in the first place by snooping? Evidence of him cheating?
The porn itself doesn’t seem to bother you, you make mention of being bothered by the groupconversation (jarring) but it's not clear if that's because he is discussing this with others or something else (misogynist way of conversing). In your ask you do write out exactly the way he responded pushing your feelings aside. He did apologize for you having to read that, but he is going to continue. I agree with above that there are two things both revolving around trust/feeling of connection. You don’t know exactly what about the incident bothers you but it does, it makes you feel numb/no love in a strong way! And second, you are not addressing (not reading yourself emotionally?) what it was that made you feel insecure before snooping.
What else happened between extremely happy in the relationship and distrust (you) and anger and not being too empathic (your guy)?
I second the therapy, even if not for the relationship but for you to learn how to read yourself better in general. If you snoop all the time, then why? And if you never snoop then why this time? Or as an alternative to therapy you could talk more with one or more trustworthy girlfriends with high e-iq to do some emotional tracking.
posted by Dutchmeisje at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2014
It seems hard for the hive here to read what exactly is your issue. Maybe because you don’t know yourself, because of the low emotional eq so you can't convey it any better in the ask. You are feeling distant though, and neither you nor your guy (maybe also low e-iq) ask the all-important question: why be suspicious in the first place?
For how long has he been gone on the trip? Was it the first time in your relationship that you’ve been apart for this amount of time? Was there a specific reason why he was traveling but not with you, and how did you feel about that etc? You say you don’t mind the watching of porn, but you find it shocking that he did this even long before he met you, with others.
Did you snoop on his phone before? Or just this time, because you were feeling anxious, and then more distrust/anxiousness/distance because you discovered your intimate thing (watching porn) was not and had not been exclusive between you. I get the feeling you lost the feeling of intimacy by some events, maybe the trip, maybe the way he kept contact during the trip. What were you scared or convinced to find in the first place by snooping? Evidence of him cheating?
The porn itself doesn’t seem to bother you, you make mention of being bothered by the groupconversation (jarring) but it's not clear if that's because he is discussing this with others or something else (misogynist way of conversing). In your ask you do write out exactly the way he responded pushing your feelings aside. He did apologize for you having to read that, but he is going to continue. I agree with above that there are two things both revolving around trust/feeling of connection. You don’t know exactly what about the incident bothers you but it does, it makes you feel numb/no love in a strong way! And second, you are not addressing (not reading yourself emotionally?) what it was that made you feel insecure before snooping.
What else happened between extremely happy in the relationship and distrust (you) and anger and not being too empathic (your guy)?
I second the therapy, even if not for the relationship but for you to learn how to read yourself better in general. If you snoop all the time, then why? And if you never snoop then why this time? Or as an alternative to therapy you could talk more with one or more trustworthy girlfriends with high e-iq to do some emotional tracking.
posted by Dutchmeisje at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2014
You don't have to bottle up discomfort with your intimate partner's casual disregard of women, like the kind exemplified by gleefully sharing stolen photos with one's friends. You feel a certain way, and you are entitled to have those emotions, beliefs, and opinions, even if all the other girls truly are way "cooler" about it. Hell, read the Cool Girl speech from Gone Girl and see if it resonates.
No man has to participate in this kind behavior. If he participated in the text exchanges, he chose to participate. Both I and my spouse saw a few of the stolen files, and as it turns out, we both feel weird for having done so, like we'd seen something we really weren't supposed to see. A sinking, sick kind of feeling. We certainly didn't share the files with other people like they were prizes or treasures we'd found. Personally, I would really question the value of keeping someone like that in my intimate life, especially if I felt the sinking, sick feeling and they did not.
posted by theraflu at 1:55 PM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
No man has to participate in this kind behavior. If he participated in the text exchanges, he chose to participate. Both I and my spouse saw a few of the stolen files, and as it turns out, we both feel weird for having done so, like we'd seen something we really weren't supposed to see. A sinking, sick kind of feeling. We certainly didn't share the files with other people like they were prizes or treasures we'd found. Personally, I would really question the value of keeping someone like that in my intimate life, especially if I felt the sinking, sick feeling and they did not.
posted by theraflu at 1:55 PM on October 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
You don't need permission to break up with someone. You don't need a reason to stop being with them. Simply being unhappy is enough.
It's not important what other people "put up with" or consider normal in their relationship. What is important is the boundaries that you set within your relationship.
On the one hand, yeah, dudes are going to look at porn and the like, and while I'd find it offputting to discover that my boyfriend had constant ongoing crass conversations about women's bodies (especially if it pertained to any of the celebrity nude hacking scandal, which frankly would be getting into red flag territory for me), to me, that's a problem on par with the problem of me snooping on my boyfriend's phone. He fucked up, I fucked up, let's figure out where our boundaries are about these things and be better to each other in the future.
But if, for you, the crass porn talk is way over the line, or if for your boyfriend, phones are a completely inviolable space, you might not be able to talk it out and move forward. If that's the case, you have my permission to move on with your life. Even if you don't need anyone's permission.
posted by Sara C. at 2:55 PM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's not important what other people "put up with" or consider normal in their relationship. What is important is the boundaries that you set within your relationship.
On the one hand, yeah, dudes are going to look at porn and the like, and while I'd find it offputting to discover that my boyfriend had constant ongoing crass conversations about women's bodies (especially if it pertained to any of the celebrity nude hacking scandal, which frankly would be getting into red flag territory for me), to me, that's a problem on par with the problem of me snooping on my boyfriend's phone. He fucked up, I fucked up, let's figure out where our boundaries are about these things and be better to each other in the future.
But if, for you, the crass porn talk is way over the line, or if for your boyfriend, phones are a completely inviolable space, you might not be able to talk it out and move forward. If that's the case, you have my permission to move on with your life. Even if you don't need anyone's permission.
posted by Sara C. at 2:55 PM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
There's nothing wrong with your boyfriend's porn-sharing, and there's nothing wrong with your not liking it. The porn isn't a trust issue, but if it's abhorrent to you, that's valid.
I wouldn't like hearing, "everybody else thinks it's fine, and you should, too." With that statement, he tries to change the subject, instead of talking about your feelings. I have no idea how the exchange went between you, but if you were both angry, you both might have said things that weren't helpful. I suggest you bring it up again, not making it about who's wrong, and instead talk about HE feels at first. Listen really well, and let him talk till he's done. After that, you tell him your feelings, and ask him if he can see your point of view, even if he doesn't agree with it.
I wonder if you'd be considering breaking up with him if your overall relationship were better. You've been with him two and a half years -- do you feel like he's a good match for you in other ways?
posted by wryly at 2:56 PM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't like hearing, "everybody else thinks it's fine, and you should, too." With that statement, he tries to change the subject, instead of talking about your feelings. I have no idea how the exchange went between you, but if you were both angry, you both might have said things that weren't helpful. I suggest you bring it up again, not making it about who's wrong, and instead talk about HE feels at first. Listen really well, and let him talk till he's done. After that, you tell him your feelings, and ask him if he can see your point of view, even if he doesn't agree with it.
I wonder if you'd be considering breaking up with him if your overall relationship were better. You've been with him two and a half years -- do you feel like he's a good match for you in other ways?
posted by wryly at 2:56 PM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
OP, I would be more concerned of what else is or could he potentially be hiding? I discovered something in a relationship that most people would have considered a huge red flag and a Big Deal. I chose to look past it and move forward by practicing forgiveness and giving the benefit of the doubt and moving on. Believing that it was something about *me* that I needed to be more accepting of or more comfortable about. I struggled with why it was a big deal to me and if it was worth continuing the relationship. As it turns out years later, it was a tip-of-the-iceberg situation and I wish I had taken note when I first discovered an inkling to go with my gut feeling and follow my instincts.
Years later, after all of the emotional investment and time spent together, it was a lot harder to move on once I decided that *yes* this is a dealbreaker for me and *yes* this is a boundary in any relationship I will have moving forward. OP, it did not end well and I could have saved a lot of time, money, and heartache and probably had a helluva lot less baggage if I listened to that voice in the back of my head the first time saying, "hey this isn't right". Hindsight truly is 20/20 and there were so many red flags I could've been playing a game of minesweeper.
3 years isn't too long to decide that you want to turn back and make a U-turn out of this one-way street. It doesn't seem like he gets it and isn't willing to understand where you're coming from and it doesn't seem like you have that great of communication which are really important things to have in a serious LTR with someone you're living with. Cut your losses and move on, you don't seem compatible in the long run and trying to fit that puzzle piece by jamming it in doesn't mean you got the right piece and it's gonna wear you out in the long run.
posted by lunastellasol at 3:30 PM on October 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
Years later, after all of the emotional investment and time spent together, it was a lot harder to move on once I decided that *yes* this is a dealbreaker for me and *yes* this is a boundary in any relationship I will have moving forward. OP, it did not end well and I could have saved a lot of time, money, and heartache and probably had a helluva lot less baggage if I listened to that voice in the back of my head the first time saying, "hey this isn't right". Hindsight truly is 20/20 and there were so many red flags I could've been playing a game of minesweeper.
3 years isn't too long to decide that you want to turn back and make a U-turn out of this one-way street. It doesn't seem like he gets it and isn't willing to understand where you're coming from and it doesn't seem like you have that great of communication which are really important things to have in a serious LTR with someone you're living with. Cut your losses and move on, you don't seem compatible in the long run and trying to fit that puzzle piece by jamming it in doesn't mean you got the right piece and it's gonna wear you out in the long run.
posted by lunastellasol at 3:30 PM on October 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
You know, btw, I was at a dinner about a month ago with my friend and her two guy friends were there and these assholes started talking to each other about downloading McKayla Maroney naked pictures. I interrupted and said,"You know she's underaged in those pictures and that's child pornography and it's not okay" and they both started howling about how I was being obnoxious by bringing it up. They were both practicing lawyers and clearly sick in the fucking head, getting off to pictures no one intended for a public audience when there's a vast amount of legal porn for them to consume, and thinking they were right to see them. They were clearly embarrassed and obviously ashamed when I called them out and they realized they can't defend how sickening they are to normal people with healthy sexual appetites and intentions who don't get off on degrading women.
If he acts one way with you and another way with his bros, you can't trust knowing the real him. I mean, that he's successfully kept this gross part of him hidden for 2 plus years---who knows what else he hides about his sexual preferences. You could feasibly end up being the wife of a guy into taking upskirts or viewing rape/torture porn or getting off on illegal porn.
The real issue is that after all this time, he hid this from you and is one way with you and another way with his brosephs. That's not a safe situation for you. He's clearly hiding things he does that he knows are wrong and that you wouldn't like. And he's been successful at it.
The only guy worth being with is someone who would be uneasy hiding things from their partner. Don't end up being with someone who could end up doing devious stuff and hiding it from you just to strengthen his homosocial relationships.
posted by discopolo at 4:12 PM on October 11, 2014 [13 favorites]
If he acts one way with you and another way with his bros, you can't trust knowing the real him. I mean, that he's successfully kept this gross part of him hidden for 2 plus years---who knows what else he hides about his sexual preferences. You could feasibly end up being the wife of a guy into taking upskirts or viewing rape/torture porn or getting off on illegal porn.
The real issue is that after all this time, he hid this from you and is one way with you and another way with his brosephs. That's not a safe situation for you. He's clearly hiding things he does that he knows are wrong and that you wouldn't like. And he's been successful at it.
The only guy worth being with is someone who would be uneasy hiding things from their partner. Don't end up being with someone who could end up doing devious stuff and hiding it from you just to strengthen his homosocial relationships.
posted by discopolo at 4:12 PM on October 11, 2014 [13 favorites]
Listen, if this is enough to break up this relationship it is enough.
But I think you ought to think about this.
First, did you ask him not to look at porn? Not to exchange porn with others? While I keep this stuf to myself, some guys share it.
Second, do you expect him not to find other women sexually attractive? To not look? To not read erotica about persons other than you?
Third, do you expect to find someone who doesn't do this? Who isn't reading erotica about other people, or sharing fantasies about celebrities with his friends?
Fourth, do you do any of this? I'm assuming from your question that you don't look at porn. But do you discuss attractive men with your friends? Do you discuss sexy celebrities with them? Do you masturbate to someone other than your boyfriend? Because, in my experience, most people do thins.
Finally, has he ever stepped out of this relationship? Do you have any evidence that he's hooked up, kissed, made out with or had sex with anyone else?
these are the questions you should ask yourself.
The snooping is fine, it happens, you apologize.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2014
But I think you ought to think about this.
First, did you ask him not to look at porn? Not to exchange porn with others? While I keep this stuf to myself, some guys share it.
Second, do you expect him not to find other women sexually attractive? To not look? To not read erotica about persons other than you?
Third, do you expect to find someone who doesn't do this? Who isn't reading erotica about other people, or sharing fantasies about celebrities with his friends?
Fourth, do you do any of this? I'm assuming from your question that you don't look at porn. But do you discuss attractive men with your friends? Do you discuss sexy celebrities with them? Do you masturbate to someone other than your boyfriend? Because, in my experience, most people do thins.
Finally, has he ever stepped out of this relationship? Do you have any evidence that he's hooked up, kissed, made out with or had sex with anyone else?
these are the questions you should ask yourself.
The snooping is fine, it happens, you apologize.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2014
Do you think, if you broke up, he might ever share images of you?
posted by bq at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
In his group chats with his guy friends, they are all exchanging images & links to x-rated photos (porn, celebrity nudes and such). The conversations from him and his friends were jarring to me.The content of these exchanges really determines what is a reasonable reaction. What exactly was he talking about in these messages? I mean, were they just trading links to porn sites or making crude sexual jokes? Or were they talking about how they'd like to get with Janet in accounting? In other words, what is distressing about what he said? Did it make you think he had thoughts of infidelity, or that it reflected poorly of his character? I guess I don't know how to read your question without understanding the exact nature of these exchanges.
posted by deathpanels at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't see how this is a trust issue. Did you make him promise to not send a porn link to his friend?
I would consider this odd behavior, and for me, too intimate for friends. But it's juvenile behavior, not untrustworthy- certainly far, far less untrustworthy than spying on his phone.
I can see this being off-putting, but "yoying between numbness and anger". What? The ridiculous comments above trying to link this to rape porn and how he's hiding things? These are frankly bizarre reactions.
Is there something big here that you are leaving out? Because if this is all it's taking you think about leaving him, it's pretty clear you didn't like him to begin with. Break up, and find someone you respect enough not spy on.
posted by spaltavian at 10:24 PM on October 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
I would consider this odd behavior, and for me, too intimate for friends. But it's juvenile behavior, not untrustworthy- certainly far, far less untrustworthy than spying on his phone.
I can see this being off-putting, but "yoying between numbness and anger". What? The ridiculous comments above trying to link this to rape porn and how he's hiding things? These are frankly bizarre reactions.
Is there something big here that you are leaving out? Because if this is all it's taking you think about leaving him, it's pretty clear you didn't like him to begin with. Break up, and find someone you respect enough not spy on.
posted by spaltavian at 10:24 PM on October 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
In my experience, grown men generally don't trade and discuss porn with each other, though I have known a few that did seem to enjoy sharing links to things they found especially "good". I find the idea of that more than a little bit creepy, though.
That said, from your SO's point-of-view, and as far as his circle of friends is concerned, everyone does share porn, so he's not exactly wrong with his assertion. It's a weird world we live in these days. Sites like 4chan were practically built on the premise of men sharing porn, after all. Was he involving your private sex life in these conversations? Sending images with "She really loves it when we do this." as a caption?
The two of you need to have a serious talk. I get the feeling that there's something else going on between the two of you that is the real problem. No one should feel justified in snooping through a partner's phone ever, let alone for some vague feeling of "intuition." He has as much a right to toss that in your face as you feel you do to use the porn sharing as an issue.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2014
That said, from your SO's point-of-view, and as far as his circle of friends is concerned, everyone does share porn, so he's not exactly wrong with his assertion. It's a weird world we live in these days. Sites like 4chan were practically built on the premise of men sharing porn, after all. Was he involving your private sex life in these conversations? Sending images with "She really loves it when we do this." as a caption?
The two of you need to have a serious talk. I get the feeling that there's something else going on between the two of you that is the real problem. No one should feel justified in snooping through a partner's phone ever, let alone for some vague feeling of "intuition." He has as much a right to toss that in your face as you feel you do to use the porn sharing as an issue.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2014
Look, I'm very late to this party, but there are some MAJOR exaggerations going on here. You shouldn't trust him? This reveals inherently dangerous attitudes toward women? How can you be sure he wouldn't send them pictures of you if you broke up? No, no, no.
Sharing with friends is icky, but it's totally within the normal range of behavior. This is the sort of behavior that calls for a conversation between the two of you about what makes you uncomfortable, and which behaviors he'd be willing to stop (if it's sharing hacked photos of celebs, thumbs up. If it's not making sexist conversations with friends, thumbs up. If it's not watching porn, good luck!) This is NOT the sort of offense that's worth breaking up a 2.5 year relationship in which you said you've been "extremely happy." I suspect that this being your first relationship, you haven't yet learned that EVERYBODY is bound to do some shit you REALLY don't like.
And for the usual cries of "My husband doesn't watch porn!!!111" - well, maybe, but unlikely: study after study finds that the majority of men view porn at least once a month. Maybe they're just keeping some semblance of privacy within your relationship by keeping it from you. And everyone's allowed a private world.
posted by namesarehard at 1:17 PM on October 12, 2014 [4 favorites]
Sharing with friends is icky, but it's totally within the normal range of behavior. This is the sort of behavior that calls for a conversation between the two of you about what makes you uncomfortable, and which behaviors he'd be willing to stop (if it's sharing hacked photos of celebs, thumbs up. If it's not making sexist conversations with friends, thumbs up. If it's not watching porn, good luck!) This is NOT the sort of offense that's worth breaking up a 2.5 year relationship in which you said you've been "extremely happy." I suspect that this being your first relationship, you haven't yet learned that EVERYBODY is bound to do some shit you REALLY don't like.
And for the usual cries of "My husband doesn't watch porn!!!111" - well, maybe, but unlikely: study after study finds that the majority of men view porn at least once a month. Maybe they're just keeping some semblance of privacy within your relationship by keeping it from you. And everyone's allowed a private world.
posted by namesarehard at 1:17 PM on October 12, 2014 [4 favorites]
Due to the remarkable nature of the comments on this topic, I shared this with my wife. I thought her response was interesting: "almost always when a woman is randomly snooping through her boyfriend's stuff, she's trying to figure out why he hasn't asked her to marry him yet." And this 'porn-sharing' thing is merely a convenient surface issue that hides the real question: should she stay or move on to someone who is more marriage-friendly?
I thought it was an interesting perspective.
posted by doctor tough love at 8:26 AM on October 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
I thought it was an interesting perspective.
posted by doctor tough love at 8:26 AM on October 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
I am also late to this party, but I strongly disagree with everyone who says this is "normal" behavior for men. It's ok to expect the man you're with to respect women and not share stolen nude celebrity photos. The idea of sharing porn is pretty gross but the fact that they are talking about the stolen celebrity photos, which many people consider a sex crime to even look at, is misogynist. There are better men out there than this.
And you shouldn't feel bad for "snooping" -- my husband and I look at each other's phones sometimes and think nothing of it. If you having a trusting and open relationship it's impossible to snoop.
posted by Librarypt at 11:15 AM on October 13, 2014
And you shouldn't feel bad for "snooping" -- my husband and I look at each other's phones sometimes and think nothing of it. If you having a trusting and open relationship it's impossible to snoop.
posted by Librarypt at 11:15 AM on October 13, 2014
And for the usual cries of "My husband doesn't watch porn!!!111" - well, maybe, but unlikely: study after study finds that the majority of men view porn at least once a month.
Yes, and many women watch porn without their husbands' knowledge. It has to do with trust and respect, not gender.
posted by Librarypt at 11:21 AM on October 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, and many women watch porn without their husbands' knowledge. It has to do with trust and respect, not gender.
posted by Librarypt at 11:21 AM on October 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Without further clarification, we can't really judge these "discussions". But plenty of healthy relationships retain boundaries and it is certainly possible to cross them and "snoop". In this situation it was clearly snooping and is, indeed, by far the biggest problem here. I think it would be sound advice to tell the boyfriend to break up with his spying girlfriend, but he's not asking the question.
posted by spaltavian at 3:49 PM on October 13, 2014
posted by spaltavian at 3:49 PM on October 13, 2014
I also find some of the responses in this thread bizarre. I don't exactly follow how someone sending links to Scarlett Johansson nudie pics makes them a misogynist. A bit juvenile? Sure. But a woman-hating monster? Celeb nude photos are readily available in any search engine, it isn't as if your boyfriend himself hacked into someone's iPhone in order to capture them and humiliate these women. He might not even know the story behind the recent surge in leaked photos and just assume they had been deliberately "leaked" by the celebs in question.
The fact is, your partner is absolutely going to do something you don't like. It may not be a big thing, like cheating. But it will be something. In fact, I'm willing to bet if you were able to snoop on the phone of any random person, you're likely to encounter at least one thing you don't like in there. So if you go looking for that one thing with your partner, that means something.
Food for thought: I snooped on my ex's phone about a year before we broke up. I'm not proud of that fact. At first I justified this with a suspicion of infidelity, but looking back on it, I didn't really have anything solid to go on at the time. I was looking for something to justify my growing distrust of her. The distrust came first; the relationship was eroding. If I had listened to myself, and had the courage to act on my feelings, I would have ended things as soon the trust disappeared from the relationship, rather than being dishonest with my partner.
posted by deathpanels at 4:11 AM on October 14, 2014
The fact is, your partner is absolutely going to do something you don't like. It may not be a big thing, like cheating. But it will be something. In fact, I'm willing to bet if you were able to snoop on the phone of any random person, you're likely to encounter at least one thing you don't like in there. So if you go looking for that one thing with your partner, that means something.
Food for thought: I snooped on my ex's phone about a year before we broke up. I'm not proud of that fact. At first I justified this with a suspicion of infidelity, but looking back on it, I didn't really have anything solid to go on at the time. I was looking for something to justify my growing distrust of her. The distrust came first; the relationship was eroding. If I had listened to myself, and had the courage to act on my feelings, I would have ended things as soon the trust disappeared from the relationship, rather than being dishonest with my partner.
posted by deathpanels at 4:11 AM on October 14, 2014
I'm surprised no one brought up the fact that the "everyone else's wives/girlfriends are fine with it" is almost certainly false as well as irrelevant. I'm guessing not everyone else's wives/girlfriends are any more aware of these goings-on than you were. Again, not that it's relevant. Just noting.
posted by Because at 7:56 AM on October 14, 2014
posted by Because at 7:56 AM on October 14, 2014
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So it might be helpful to frame it as: You had a rule you didn't know you had (no porn) and so didn't tell him about the rule. He did a fairly mainstream thing, and suddenly you discovered you had this rule. No one's really wrong, at that point.
It sounds like he's said he's unwilling to stop, which would be my sticking point. If you're not ok with the pornography going forward and he refuses to change, then that's a fairly good sign that you're incompatible. So I think you need to figure out if you're ok with the pornography going forward (and I suspect you're about to get a bunch of answers telling you why you should be). But it's ok to not be ok with it, too -- you'll just need to be explicit in telling partners that going forward.
posted by jaguar at 9:17 AM on October 11, 2014 [27 favorites]