Can father be legally required or encouraged to improve housing?

November 24, 2013 1:33 PM

Asking for a friend. She is wondering if anything can be done to get her ex-husband to move into larger accommodations and stop sharing a bed with her protesting children.

My friend and her husband's marriage ended a few years ago. Her ex-husband still lives in the very tiny apartment he first rented. Their kids are much older now and the 9yo is complaining that he and his younger sibling have to share the one bed for with their dad. One of the kids also has multiple disabilities that result in serious aggression and the family's health care professionals feel that giving the kids more space would be helpful. Sometimes, the kids aren't even allowed to be in the same household when the younger one is being aggressive, so having to share a bed seems over the top.

My friend has repeatedly broached the subject with her ex-husband. When she upgraded the kids' beds at her home, she even gave him the old beds, but the kids say their dad has never used them. (We assume because it is too difficult for one person to do or because there is no space.) She has asked her ex husband to move to a bigger space, so that the kids have more room and so that they do not continue to have boundary issues. She has also asked him to respect the children's wishes, especially that of the 9yo, to not share a bed with him or with one another. Her ex husband repeatedly states that he does not have enough money. He is in a very high income bracket and works as a senior executive. The kids did not share a bed with the parents in the original family home, have always had their own beds and a kids' room. And her ex husband did not grow up sharing a bed with his parents.

My friend's lawyer is on mat leave for a while yet, so she wondered if I might know of what she could do. She is very concerned that her ex is not respecting the boundaries of the 9yo, who finds that there is not enough space, safety (aggressive sibling), comfort and so on. And, given the complex medical problems of the other child and the recommendations of the health care team, she feels that this is fast becoming an issue.

Is there anything she can do? This is in Canada. Does she have to get legal help? She's not trying to get her ex into trouble. She just wants the problem solved.

Please do not reply to attack the mother's position. This is based on the concerns of both her older child and the health care team for the younger child. The mom practices attachment parenting, but believes co-sleeping should end whenever a child asks to stop and also if there are other mitigating factors, such as safety and sleep issues.

posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats to Law & Government (37 answers total)

She could make a report to social services. If CPS finds that the children do not have beds of their own, he may not be allowed to have them for overnight visits.
posted by fancyoats at 1:40 PM on November 24, 2013 [8 favorites]

In my county of Pennsylvania, there is a (sometimes ineffective) organization called Children & Youth that you can call to report these sorts of things. Perhaps calling the local police department (not 911) and asking if there is an organization that you can call to report concerns you have about a child's welfare would help. I am a teacher and deal often with child welfare types of issues and have had extensive child abuse reporting training, I am not sure this would be breaking the law here, but I am almost certain C&Y would investigate this situation which might be enough to scare the holy bejeezus out of that dad.
posted by mzwz at 1:41 PM on November 24, 2013

Best answer: I'm in the US, but can she contact the attorney's staff/secretary and see who they are referring people to? It seems strange to me that an attorney would go on maternity leave with no cover whatsoever. Things like this should absolutely be written into custody agreements, and she should seek legal help.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:41 PM on November 24, 2013 [17 favorites]

Asking nicely is an okay first step, but when there's a divorce involved it's not unusual or overly aggressive to involve an attorney when asking nicely fails, at least not in the US, and I'm not under the impression that it's different there. A man who is not impoverished who is insisting over the wishes of his sons and their mother that the two of them share his bed has problems, at best, with the idea of where his priorities should be.

The attorney on maternity leave should be able to provide a referral to someone to handle this, who should at that point be able to advise about next steps.
posted by Sequence at 1:41 PM on November 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

What is the ex's response when she does talk to him about it? It may be time tell him that she is concerned enough to take him to family court over it if the sleeping arrangements have not changed by such-and-such date. And between now and that date she needs to track down a new lawyer to call the day after that date if necessary. It's an unpleasant thought, but I think that's where she's at in this situation right now.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 2:10 PM on November 24, 2013

Best answer: This is very obviously within the purview of the family court system. Get a referral from the lawyer on mat leave and figure out how to approach the court about it (whether it's modifying the visitation pending the dad getting the kids decent beds, or what.) Making recalcitrant parents prioritize their kids' welfare is exactly what the family court is for.
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:11 PM on November 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

Best answer: I do not know Canada law, but was a family law paralegal here in the US, in Arizona a few years back. This type of situation came up fairly frequently and was often addressed in the custody and visitation paperwork and decrees - that the children must have their own beds (at least - and sometimes it was worded that they must have their own room outside of the parent's room) at each parent's home in order for the parent to have custody and/or visitation. So, this is nothing new and any family law attorney should be familiar with the issue and be able to address is successfully. Contact the attorney to get the ball rolling.
posted by Sassyfras at 2:14 PM on November 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

This is crazy. Parents don't get to force kids to share their beds against their will. Stop sending the kids there until this is resolved.
posted by alms at 2:22 PM on November 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

This guy sounds like a monster. I would absolutely suggest contacting child protective services.
posted by oceanjesse at 2:23 PM on November 24, 2013

Best answer: Ex husband here (not the one from the question, just to make it perfectly clear). First off, the info in the question has been filtered through an ex spouse, then the ex spouse's friend, so I am not inclined to be overly harsh on dad without hearing both sides of the story. Having said that, this situation is exactly why there are divorce lawyers. Details vary from state to state and even more between countries, but the starting point in this issue should be to review the divorce papers and see what (if any) stipulations there are regarding living arrangements. Then moms lawyer, or her office staff, or partner, or a colleague can draft a bluntly worded letter explaining why things need to change. This sort of letter is a big part of what lawyers do and may well solve the problem withou further action. In any event, if the father is not providing the best environment he can for his kids, mom isn't getting him in trouble by pointing that out.
posted by TedW at 2:38 PM on November 24, 2013 [8 favorites]

Disclaimer: I am a mandatory reporter in my state but not an expert in any respect. That said: I think it's unlikely that this is the kind of thing CPS will deem cause for intervention. Regardless of whether you and I think it's appropriate for two children to share a bed with a parent, if they're fed, clothed, and have a place to sleep, they're not in imminent danger.

It may not jibe with a middle-class, 21st century Western mindset but recall it wasn't uncommon in decades past for numerous family members to share a bed, and civilization has marched on.

I echo the advice above to get a referral from the lawyer and take this matter to family court for review. Best wishes.
posted by trunk muffins at 2:49 PM on November 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

If the mother's lawyer is on maternity leave and doesn't have a partner/associate handling existing cases, it's time for a new lawyer.
posted by headnsouth at 2:52 PM on November 24, 2013 [13 favorites]

An adult sharing a bed with their nine-year-old child when the child doesn't want to is not generally considered acceptable practice. If Mom doesn't believe Dad's claim that this is out of financial necessity, she should absolutely get her attorney and/or social services involved. I would recommend that Mom call social services for immediate help, and then call her attorney's office and find out what help is available while her attorney is on leave. Even if it's not her children's safety at issue, only her children's comfort and happiness, that still shouldn't have to be put on hold for months.
posted by epj at 3:02 PM on November 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Contact CFS and report this. She may not want to get him in trouble, but it looks like getting him in trouble will be the only effective means of creating a change. They need to investigate this anyhow, it's inappropriate.

There are also laws regulating how many people can reside per square footage of a dwelling. This varies by province and city, but it's pretty possible that this is actually illegal.

It's possible that just having CFS investigate will scare him straight, but if not, it's a good start to the forthcoming legal battle. He needs to provide appropriate and safe housing for his children. If he can't, he shouldn't get overnights with them. And she very well may need to take him to court over this- how hard is it for him to sleep on a couch, a cot, or the floor while they're there? Not hard at all. This guy is being a douche.
posted by windykites at 3:03 PM on November 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

I don't understand this "doesn't want to get the ex in trouble" business. It sounds like she has made it clear that the sleeping situation is both unacceptable to her and unacceptable to the children. She should issue an ultimatum: the kids get their own beds or there will be no more overnight visits. Since she has already supplied the beds, it should be easy enough for him to set up the beds by the next visit. He can set them up in the living room if he has no other space.

I think that's the minimum action required in order to have the kids sleep over. If she shows up and the beds aren't ready with appropriate bedding then everyone goes home. And she should request a certain date by which he'll have an appropriate second bedroom available for the kids. The 9-year-old is going to want some privacy eventually. If the kids can't share a room then he'll need to figure it out -- maybe he gets a sleeper sofa in the living room and sleeps on that when the kids are over so they can each have their own room.

But, no matter what, your friend needs to talk to her counsel or her counsel's stand-in while she is on leave right away.
posted by amanda at 3:31 PM on November 24, 2013

It is my understanding that in Ontario, child welfare services would expect a 9 year old to have his or her own bed. and not share a room with children of another gender. Call the relevant Children's Aid - they can have a talk with dad without apprehension.
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 3:46 PM on November 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I agree with everyone else to ratchet this up to CPS and/or lawyers.

However, temporarily, could a couple of high quality, pack-able, camping mattresses + sleeping bags be a stopgap solution? That would get around the claims of space/money issues.
posted by tinymegalo at 3:46 PM on November 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I would think that the ex husband would be quick to correct these inadequate sleeping arrangements just to cut off even the appearance of impropriety with regards to molestation or similar issues. It seems strange to me that he is a senior executive in a high income bracket insisting on sleeping with his two mature children, where his children do not want him to do this. Kids do often feel reluctant to report impropriety in these situations, feeling guilt and blame where the adult has all the fault. I hope that's not happening to them and that the ex husband is just being inconsiderate rather than predatory. I understand the ex wife's desire not to get the ex in trouble, but I do think if the ex husband won't fix things on his own after her repeated attempts to make him, it is time to get her lawyer involved.
posted by onlyconnect at 3:51 PM on November 24, 2013 [9 favorites]

I'm a mandated reporter for child abuse in the US, and I'd feel compelled to report this to Children & Family Services if I heard it in a professional capacity. I sometimes get conflicted with how we equate "poverty" with "neglect," but this doesn't sound like a situation where the father absolutely cannot afford to solve the problem -- which means he's either neglecting the children's needs, since children each having a bed is very much a cultural expectation today; actively deciding he wants to be in bed with them even though they don't like it, which raises red flags for sexual abuse; or actually poor because he's spending money elsewhere, and that much spending would raise red flags of a gambling or drug addiction.

Someone needs to go investigate what's going on.
posted by jaguar at 4:14 PM on November 24, 2013 [17 favorites]

IANAL This needs to be addressed, and she is right to be concerned. Visitation requires that a parent maintain an appropriate, safe home. She should look at her custody agreement which probably specifies this in standard boilerplate. She can have the lawyer's office write a letter stating that he is in violation of the custody agreement, and that the children need appropriate arrangements when they visit him, with a copy of the relevant parts of the original agreement. If the current custody agreement doesn't specify that his home must be appropriate, etc., she can go to court to request a new custody agreement that specifies minimum standards. The local office of Legal Aid (you can find them in the paper version of the phone book) may have helpful literature or be willing to assist her by phone, or more, depending.

This is not that difficult for him to resolve. He could give 1 kid the bed, another the couch, and he could sleep on the floor with a sleeping bag and pad. As her friend, I'd suggest she pay close attention to any possibility of any other inappropriate behavior. I've seen a person accuse an ex- of molestation unjustly; it's ugly, so she should be cautious and fair, but asking how things are going with Daddy, is there any other reason you don't feel good about Daddy's house, etc., is in order. (My son got weird about going to Daddy's house - turned out they'd been a little too ferocious talking about stranger danger at school, and he was worried about Daddy's roommate. sheesh.)

Calling Child Protective Services - I don't think they're the best resource. If she needs a professional to check out any concerns about Dad's behavior, they would have referrals. Also, they often have a backlog.
posted by theora55 at 4:38 PM on November 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Just a thought, does contacting CYS or whatever the local agency set in motion actions that result in the children seeing a policeman sort of person visiting their house and asking their dad questions? Please consider the ramifications - for all I can see an innocent although perhaps not "culturally standard" sleeping situation - as well as the intended purpose of these agencies to prevent abusive situations. I hope the route of communication directly or through lawyers can bypass bringing in officials. Best of luck. This is a difficult situation and we all want the best for these children foremost.
posted by RoadScholar at 5:04 PM on November 24, 2013

In ontario, a CFS visit is just a normal-looking person in regular clothes looking around the house and possibly talking to the kids. It's not a police thing unless there's a reason for it to be, and it's not a big hairy deal unless the parent frames it that way. Please don't refrain from encouraging your friend to have this dealt with by the appropriate agency because of fear that it might upset the children. in fact, it's totally possible to call CFS anonymously and ask how they would deal with this situation "hypothetically".
posted by windykites at 5:20 PM on November 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks. I think I'll suggest she find out who's covering for her lawyer and see about getting a firmly worded letter. We both think it's that he has really poor social thinking skills and trouble understanding boundaries, so he doesn't understand how important it is to take his 9yo's concerns seriously and that he sees the input from the medical team as "noise". She didn't want to call CPS or fan the flames in the courts, but maybe talking to her lawyer's team will come up with a nice way to write a letter. She just wants her kids to be okay and have their space managed, as the younger one has really serious aggression issues too. To be clear, she doesn't suspect abuse toward the kids and everyone has their own therapist, so she feels this is all being managed. It's just she wasn't sure if there was a step in between this and seeing a lawyer or CPS. She's had to report the ex to CPS before and really would prefer to solve this through other means first, as she really strives for an amiable relationship with her ex and he does too when his mental health is good.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 5:39 PM on November 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Next time they go to stay at Dad's send them with sleeping bags, even if she has to borrow some. Most of my vacations were spent on the floor in a sleeping bag because the option was sleep with Dad or pull up a chunk of floor and I didn't like sleeping with my Dad either. No sexual abuse, just snoring and making such a dent in the mattress that I always rolled into him and because he was "old" and hairy and just ewwwwwwwwwwwwww, rather sleep on the floor, thank you! Doesn't have to be a lot of drama just "No thanks, Dad, we've got our sleeping bags". Or let the younger one sleep in Dad's bed and the older one gets the floor.
posted by BoscosMom at 5:42 PM on November 24, 2013 [12 favorites]

This is strange behavior and doesn't seem healthy. If someone in a high-income bracket is not letting his kids have their own beds, it makes me worry about sexual abuse or just abuse where he doesn't care about the kids generally. She should try to get full custody as I am sure he would be considered an unfit parent to have partial custody. Your friend is being way too lax about this and could be turning a blind eye to some real issues with her ex. Your followup makes it sound like he has mental stability issues -- why is she OK with this very unusual behavior that raises major red flags?
posted by AppleTurnover at 5:47 PM on November 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

Echoing BoscosMom. It might be the only option for dealing with this situation immediately. The kids could also bring a thermarest. I slept on one as a student in my first apartment and found it to be quite comfortable.
posted by alusru at 7:20 PM on November 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Step 1 = Camping Gear

Step 2 = Please Take Steps To Cease Normalizing Abnormal Behavior.

My mother was mentally ill. Even when I was very very young, I knew mom wasn't "right" and having other adults try to explain away her fucked up behaviors always made me angry and/or distrustful.

I could tell I was being sold a load of horse shit about my mom. Your friend's kids know the same about their dad. I promise.

Is it really OK to have the children go overnight with a mentally ill caregiver? Because living in a hovel unnecessarily and foisting poverty conditions on your kids is beyond a lifestyle choice and into mental illness territory and I think it is Past Time for a new visitation agreement.

Lastly.

My mentally ill mother did not want to hurt me, but she was sick, so she hurt me A LOT.

Your Friend is misguided. The kindness she can do her ex here is preventing him opportunities to subtly but with lasting effect fuck up his children's heads.

Her kids need protection from their father. It's worse for everyone if she does too little in this regard.

Sorry, but I know first hand this is true.
posted by jbenben at 7:43 PM on November 24, 2013 [10 favorites]

Response by poster: Whoa, there's a wide range of mental illnesses and no reason to think this guy is unsafe if he's on meds, in intensive therapy, under the care of a medical team, functioning well and the kids are not reporting any abuse and all the people who've investigated are okay with it. There are lots of professionals involved. Their mom is really on top of things and has got every professional under the sun looking at this. She doesn't think any abuse is happening toward the kids and neither do any of the other professionals. He kid just says there is not enough room in the bed and that his brother is aggressive.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 7:55 PM on November 24, 2013

If you are in a position to do so, you might want to point out to her that this:

really strives for an amiable relationship with her ex

is not the correct priority for her to have. Her priority needs to be her kids' well-being. Having a good relationship with the ex may be part of that, but the MORE important part is to protect them from his bizarreness. This is going to mean standing up to him and doing what needs to be done to make sure that he isn't harming them. Not giving them a decent place to sleep IS harm.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:59 PM on November 24, 2013 [10 favorites]

Response by poster: Fingersandtoes, I think that, when she asked this of me, she meant the most effective and least aggressive way to accomplish things, not a way to avoid keeping her kids safe. She just told me that she talked to CPS and they said they can't force separate sleeping arrangements, absent abuse, but that the courts can. So she's going to talk to the lawyer.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 8:11 PM on November 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

What do all the professionals -- the father's therapists, the kids' therapists -- say about it, then? If they don't all (especially the father's medical team) know about this, there's an even bigger problem.

And seriously, "my brother is so aggressive we cannot always be in the same house but my father makes us share a bed" isn't safe. Neither is ignoring your child's doctors' advice.

Your friend should consult whichever lawyer is taking over for her lawyer; failing that, she should be consulting with the appropriate family services for her province. If her husband is indeed a wealthy and functional executive who is not abusing his kids (beyond the possible neglect/emotional abuse that the bed situation may be), he's not actually going to be sent to prison, though this might -- and probably should -- impact custody arrangements.
posted by jeather at 8:11 PM on November 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Just wanted to nth sleeping bags.

My sister and I slept on the floor a LOT when we were kids. I still prefer a super-firm mattress and when we have company, I give them the bed and sleep on the floor.

Sleeping bags in the living room is a great way to bunk out for the night when sleeping away from home.

It's also the easiest, least drama-filled way of dealing with the issue.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:00 AM on November 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Any chance the dad has trouble with aggressive kid and imagines that keeping him on a short leash - that is, right there in the same bed - is a strategy?

Has dad been involved with aggressive kid's issues? Is he patenting with advice from docs therapists and so forth?
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:07 AM on November 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

As someone who grew up having to share a room with a physically violent sibling, I urge you to contact the necessary authorities (ie: your divorce lawyer) so that the children get adequate sleeping arrangements at the fathers' home.

If the ex-husband is truly in dire straights, as it pertains to money, lawyers should be contacted so that his financial obligations can be adjusted. They might've demanded he pay too much of his income for support, which may have left him without a liveable income that allows him to acquire a larger apartment or new furniture for the children.

Regardless, be nice, but don't be afraid to get him in trouble. From the childrens' perspective, it's probably a nightmare having to stay the night at the fathers'. I shared a room with a violent sibling---I couldn't imagine having had to share a bed with them too.
posted by stubbehtail at 12:24 PM on November 25, 2013

Response by poster: Just a quick update to say that the child's father apparently didn't understand that this was such a serious issue until their mom said that she's going to her lawyer. (Remember the poor social thinking skills and empathy issues.) He has now committed to sleeping on the floor and separating the kids and says that he will devote himself to a housing search, within blocks of the children's mother, over the coming month, so that they have something different in place for the new year. He generally sticks to these decisions when she has escalated to authorities, so she feels he will more than likely be okay with following this. She tends to be the kind of parent who comes down hard when agreements aren't followed and I think she was just checking to see if there were any alternatives to the lawyer, but it seems that simply mentioning the lawyer was enough to get him to move on this.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 6:34 PM on November 25, 2013 [12 favorites]

Response by poster: The dad has secured new housing. Guess we can close this up.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 11:32 PM on December 12, 2013 [7 favorites]

Thank you for the updates. It's great to hear that this has worked out.
posted by alms at 7:14 AM on December 13, 2013 [3 favorites]