What books or movies are as explicitly philosophy oriented as Waking Life?
October 2, 2005 3:13 PM Subscribe
What books or movies are as explicitly philosophy oriented as 'Waking Life'?
I realize that if it's philosophy I want I could go straight to the source and read a book about philosophy, but theres something to be said I think for the little nuggets of wisdom or ideas we pick up from a story or a well-turned phrase. And Waking Life just seemed to be jammed full of these as it seemed to be a movie about philosophy! Any others? Im trying to get at philosophy basically from outside of the discipline of philosophy, so any books on 'philosophy from people without PhD's' is good too.
I realize that if it's philosophy I want I could go straight to the source and read a book about philosophy, but theres something to be said I think for the little nuggets of wisdom or ideas we pick up from a story or a well-turned phrase. And Waking Life just seemed to be jammed full of these as it seemed to be a movie about philosophy! Any others? Im trying to get at philosophy basically from outside of the discipline of philosophy, so any books on 'philosophy from people without PhD's' is good too.
Maybe the excellent film I [heart] Huckabees?
Sophie's World, absolutely.
posted by Marquis at 3:29 PM on October 2, 2005
Sophie's World, absolutely.
posted by Marquis at 3:29 PM on October 2, 2005
What the *#%! Do We Know?
A Brief History of Time
Run, Lola, Run (contextually speaking - which path do we take? kharma, etc)
The Lathe of Heaven - preferably the 1980 version (about concept of effective dreaming, ie dreaming something into being)
Brainstorm
posted by ArsncHeart at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2005
A Brief History of Time
Run, Lola, Run (contextually speaking - which path do we take? kharma, etc)
The Lathe of Heaven - preferably the 1980 version (about concept of effective dreaming, ie dreaming something into being)
Brainstorm
posted by ArsncHeart at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2005
My Dinner With Andre?
posted by starman at 3:34 PM on October 2, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by starman at 3:34 PM on October 2, 2005 [1 favorite]
Just about anything directed by Hal Hartley.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 3:39 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 3:39 PM on October 2, 2005
Response by poster: Ok so we've got some options here. Now my follow-up question is: when I first saw Waking Life I was blown away and I know I wasnt the only one. Are any of these blower-awayers?
posted by dino terror at 3:48 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by dino terror at 3:48 PM on October 2, 2005
Sliding Doors is sort of like Run, Lola, Run, in that it's about "which path do we take?" It's not explicitely philosophy oriented, but it certainly raises a number of philosophical issues, like what constitutes a "best" path through life. It happened to be the only movie my school's philosophy club showed that I managed to go see.
posted by Godbert at 3:53 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by Godbert at 3:53 PM on October 2, 2005
Really, a lot of Woody Allen films are. Crimes and Misdemeanors comes to mind. I wasn't blown away (I wasn't blown away by Waking Life either) but it was a really, really good take on morality with some excellent dialogue from a rabbi I believe, shown through video reels. It's considered one of his best, people who aren't Woody Allen fans seem to like it.
American Psycho (the book, not the movie) is really, really good in that it explores Kant's notion that civilization and morality do not necessarily go hand -in-hand. It is often compared Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov and is a lot more accessible.
Camus is fairly easy to pick up, especially The Stranger, even though my understanding is that Sartre and exestentialism has fallen out of fashion with the academics.
I'd personally stay away from actual philosophers for now, especially if you were thrown back by Waking Life (it's pretty much a freshman philosophy course). Kant can be especially hard to understand and without guides you probably won't "get" what philosophers are really trying to say unfortunately. I would go with the more popular works and just go after what interests you. Unless you're really serious about studying Western philosophy, don't really listen to what the intellectuals say and just go with what you like. To me most philosophy books give me that "whoa dude" kind of rush, I'm reading Neitzsche's aphorisms right now and it is pretty easy to get through but I've had several years of formal logic and other philosophy courses.
posted by geoff. at 4:02 PM on October 2, 2005
American Psycho (the book, not the movie) is really, really good in that it explores Kant's notion that civilization and morality do not necessarily go hand -in-hand. It is often compared Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov and is a lot more accessible.
Camus is fairly easy to pick up, especially The Stranger, even though my understanding is that Sartre and exestentialism has fallen out of fashion with the academics.
I'd personally stay away from actual philosophers for now, especially if you were thrown back by Waking Life (it's pretty much a freshman philosophy course). Kant can be especially hard to understand and without guides you probably won't "get" what philosophers are really trying to say unfortunately. I would go with the more popular works and just go after what interests you. Unless you're really serious about studying Western philosophy, don't really listen to what the intellectuals say and just go with what you like. To me most philosophy books give me that "whoa dude" kind of rush, I'm reading Neitzsche's aphorisms right now and it is pretty easy to get through but I've had several years of formal logic and other philosophy courses.
posted by geoff. at 4:02 PM on October 2, 2005
about your "blown away" followup:
Personally, I almost fell asleep during "Waking Life" but have friends who are "blown away" by the DaVinci code. So, to each his own I suppose.
Philosophically, the films that have blown me away include both My Dinner with Andre (recommended above) and Ingmar Bergman's Persona. Both question the nature of experience and identity.
These are films that really got into my head. Not sure if that fits what you're looking for though.
posted by vacapinta at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2005
Personally, I almost fell asleep during "Waking Life" but have friends who are "blown away" by the DaVinci code. So, to each his own I suppose.
Philosophically, the films that have blown me away include both My Dinner with Andre (recommended above) and Ingmar Bergman's Persona. Both question the nature of experience and identity.
These are films that really got into my head. Not sure if that fits what you're looking for though.
posted by vacapinta at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2005
I thought Waking Life was a little heavy-handed, to be honest.
What the [BLEEP] Do We Know? was a big disappointment- it promoted a very solipsistic view of the world in which *you* were all that really mattered- not how you treated people, not whether you made a positive contribution to the world. That kind of thinking, where you get to say "well, I feel all right with myself, that's all that matters!" is very dangerous. [end rant]
I think if you liked the philosophizin' in Waking Life, you'll love I ♥ Huckabees. Big thumbs up to that.
posted by elisabeth r at 4:19 PM on October 2, 2005
What the [BLEEP] Do We Know? was a big disappointment- it promoted a very solipsistic view of the world in which *you* were all that really mattered- not how you treated people, not whether you made a positive contribution to the world. That kind of thinking, where you get to say "well, I feel all right with myself, that's all that matters!" is very dangerous. [end rant]
I think if you liked the philosophizin' in Waking Life, you'll love I ♥ Huckabees. Big thumbs up to that.
posted by elisabeth r at 4:19 PM on October 2, 2005
Response by poster: Yeah, I was a freshman when I saw Waking Life. Maybe 'pop philosophy' is a good way to describe what Im looking for in retrospect.
posted by dino terror at 4:26 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by dino terror at 4:26 PM on October 2, 2005
You're looking for fiction that deals with philosophical topics as part of the narrative? Georges Perec's books are good in that regard. AS Byatt, also. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, too, sorta.
posted by holgate at 4:28 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by holgate at 4:28 PM on October 2, 2005
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
Also -- The Matrix has inspired a number of books examining philosophy and religion in the movie trilogy: Taking the Red Pill: Science, Philosophy and Religion in The Matrix and The Matrix and Philosophy among many.
BTW - you might enjoy Philosophy Through Film and Philosophy Goes to the Movies.
posted by ericb at 4:31 PM on October 2, 2005
Also -- The Matrix has inspired a number of books examining philosophy and religion in the movie trilogy: Taking the Red Pill: Science, Philosophy and Religion in The Matrix and The Matrix and Philosophy among many.
BTW - you might enjoy Philosophy Through Film and Philosophy Goes to the Movies.
posted by ericb at 4:31 PM on October 2, 2005
holgate and I are on the same wavelength -- what he/she said!
posted by ericb at 4:32 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by ericb at 4:32 PM on October 2, 2005
There's a guy named Timothy Speed Levitch who is in Waking Life (and is the only reason I watched it). He's the subject (ie, in every shot) of the terrific documentary, The Cruise. Hunt it down. I don't think it's on DVD yet but it's the first film by Bennett Miller, who directed the upcoming (and hugely plauded) film, Capote, so I don't doubt it will hit DVD very soon.
Also, yes, Hal Hartley's Surviving Desire (especially) and the short films that accompany it's dvd/video is excellent. To a lesser extent his film Trust is may also fit the bill.
Hurlyburly may also be worth a watch for you, especially Kevin Spacey's character, Micky.
Kieslowski's Dekalog (aka decalogue) might also fit.
What about Fight Club or is that to oblique?
Many of Jon Jost's films would fit as well--start with All the Vermeers in New York if you can find it.
You could also watch a movie like Panic Room and examine the three bad guys as Id, Ego, and Super Ego. Works very well.
Mulholland Drive is *very* oblique but in my opinion is terrific for examining or thinking about personal responsibility.
For Woody Allen I agree that C&M would be good. Stardust Memories maybe, also.
posted by dobbs at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2005
Also, yes, Hal Hartley's Surviving Desire (especially) and the short films that accompany it's dvd/video is excellent. To a lesser extent his film Trust is may also fit the bill.
Hurlyburly may also be worth a watch for you, especially Kevin Spacey's character, Micky.
Kieslowski's Dekalog (aka decalogue) might also fit.
What about Fight Club or is that to oblique?
Many of Jon Jost's films would fit as well--start with All the Vermeers in New York if you can find it.
You could also watch a movie like Panic Room and examine the three bad guys as Id, Ego, and Super Ego. Works very well.
Mulholland Drive is *very* oblique but in my opinion is terrific for examining or thinking about personal responsibility.
For Woody Allen I agree that C&M would be good. Stardust Memories maybe, also.
posted by dobbs at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2005
Depending on how you decide to watch/take in the movie, Donnie Darko gets pretty philosophical...
posted by twiggy at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by twiggy at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2005
About that "What The Bleep": It's not so much philosophical as anti-science, an insipid film put out by a cult.
posted by johngoren at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by johngoren at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2005
Response by poster: Yeah I rented The Cruise, twas good. After just watching the I Heart Huckabees trailer it certainly does seem explicitly philosophical, i may have to go rent that.
posted by dino terror at 4:48 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by dino terror at 4:48 PM on October 2, 2005
I second both Sophie's World (one of my favourite books!) and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
posted by easternblot at 4:56 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by easternblot at 4:56 PM on October 2, 2005
Response by poster: I think what I liked about Waking Life was the conversational nature of it. I see there are some movies along similar lines in here...
posted by dino terror at 5:05 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by dino terror at 5:05 PM on October 2, 2005
"All Men are Mortal" a novel by Simone de Beauvoir.
posted by slow, man at 5:21 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by slow, man at 5:21 PM on October 2, 2005
conversational nature of it
Then you might indeed enjoy (as mentioned above) My Dinner With Andre -- a film depicting a conversation over dinner between Andre Gregory and Wallace Shawn (who, in addition to being a prolific character actor, is the son of the late William Shawn, the renowned editor of "The New Yorker" magazine).
posted by ericb at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2005
Then you might indeed enjoy (as mentioned above) My Dinner With Andre -- a film depicting a conversation over dinner between Andre Gregory and Wallace Shawn (who, in addition to being a prolific character actor, is the son of the late William Shawn, the renowned editor of "The New Yorker" magazine).
posted by ericb at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2005
Also the above-mentioned movie Mindwalk fits the bill.
posted by vacapinta at 5:27 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by vacapinta at 5:27 PM on October 2, 2005
An article detailing the connection between "What the [bleep] do we know" and the Ramtha cult can be found here.
posted by jtron at 5:56 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by jtron at 5:56 PM on October 2, 2005
Definitely I [heart] Huckabee's, and I would also say Harold And Maude. which is, not coincidentally, probably my favorite film ever.
Also: Being There, to a certain extent Fight Club, A.I., and Blade Runner.
And the granddaddy of all philosophical movies has to be The Holy Mountain.
posted by BoringPostcards at 6:17 PM on October 2, 2005
Also: Being There, to a certain extent Fight Club, A.I., and Blade Runner.
And the granddaddy of all philosophical movies has to be The Holy Mountain.
posted by BoringPostcards at 6:17 PM on October 2, 2005
Being John Malkovich comes to mind right away.
Here's a resource I stumbled across that lists many more.
posted by Pseudonumb at 6:33 PM on October 2, 2005
Here's a resource I stumbled across that lists many more.
posted by Pseudonumb at 6:33 PM on October 2, 2005
The last time I watched Waking Life, I thought that the writer/director might be pointing out the frustrating nature of pop philosophy, in that the main character is going through various streams of philosophy and trying to escape/wake up, becoming increasingly frustrated/nervous as he finds himself unable to escape the system. Maybe he was trying to capture a modern experience of the basics of philosophy, and a feeling of disillusionment.
Or maybe I'm just projecting the eye-rolling that I feel when I encounter frosh who are enthralled with the "maybe we're just sitting in a vat and scientists are poking at our brain and making us think these things are happening, maaaaaaan" idea onto the desperation of the main character. (Ugh, what a mess of a sentence.)
Anyways, if you're looking for books that muse about life, I suggest Annie Dillard. For the Time Being and Holy The Firm in particular. Lots of thoughts about the nature of individuality and time and meaning and God (more as a symbol than anything).
posted by heatherann at 6:41 PM on October 2, 2005
Or maybe I'm just projecting the eye-rolling that I feel when I encounter frosh who are enthralled with the "maybe we're just sitting in a vat and scientists are poking at our brain and making us think these things are happening, maaaaaaan" idea onto the desperation of the main character. (Ugh, what a mess of a sentence.)
Anyways, if you're looking for books that muse about life, I suggest Annie Dillard. For the Time Being and Holy The Firm in particular. Lots of thoughts about the nature of individuality and time and meaning and God (more as a symbol than anything).
posted by heatherann at 6:41 PM on October 2, 2005
What the [BLEEP] Do We Know? was a big disappointment
Agreed. It had some interesting segments on how you can condition your cells to *want* unhealthy stimuli, but was otherwise all based on this very ill-explained "experiment" whereby someone "caused" water molecules to stack differently by thinking different words. They made way too much of the leap from that poorly-supported experiment to positive-thinking as self-help. Yeah yeah, we're mostly water. We get it. It's just dumb.
Waking Life isn't so much about philosophy as it is about people talking about philosophy. In that regard, the second Matrix movie definitely qualifies. As I recall, Pulp Fiction was also full of slang-talking, off-the-cuff philosopher characters. The Hal Hartley suggestion is also a good one in this regard.
Ayn Rand's works are also thinly-disguised philosophy essays. I'm pretty sure there is a film of Atlas Shrugged.
posted by scarabic at 7:21 PM on October 2, 2005
Agreed. It had some interesting segments on how you can condition your cells to *want* unhealthy stimuli, but was otherwise all based on this very ill-explained "experiment" whereby someone "caused" water molecules to stack differently by thinking different words. They made way too much of the leap from that poorly-supported experiment to positive-thinking as self-help. Yeah yeah, we're mostly water. We get it. It's just dumb.
Waking Life isn't so much about philosophy as it is about people talking about philosophy. In that regard, the second Matrix movie definitely qualifies. As I recall, Pulp Fiction was also full of slang-talking, off-the-cuff philosopher characters. The Hal Hartley suggestion is also a good one in this regard.
Ayn Rand's works are also thinly-disguised philosophy essays. I'm pretty sure there is a film of Atlas Shrugged.
posted by scarabic at 7:21 PM on October 2, 2005
I second Iris Murdoch.
A.I. takes on Kant's Categorical Imperative--albeit not altogether successfully.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:32 PM on October 2, 2005
A.I. takes on Kant's Categorical Imperative--albeit not altogether successfully.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:32 PM on October 2, 2005
Nobody has mentioned Colin Wilson - early Colin Wilson......The Outsider is a classic - it is non-fiction, but an easy read. However, I am a fan of Wilson's early "Outsider" novels which are all very philosophical. These would include, Ritual In The Dark, Necessary Doubt, Adrift in Soho, The Violent World of Hugh Green, Lingard, The Glass Cage and Man Without a Shadow.
Later in life, Colin Wilson became fascinated with the paranormal and his later works almost all deal with that kind of thing. Not for me, though many enjoy his later books. He is nothing if not prolific. One book that any Wilson fan should read is his new autobiography, Dreaming To Some Purpose.
Wikipedia has a good introduction to Colin Wilson.
-
posted by Independent Scholarship at 7:48 PM on October 2, 2005
Later in life, Colin Wilson became fascinated with the paranormal and his later works almost all deal with that kind of thing. Not for me, though many enjoy his later books. He is nothing if not prolific. One book that any Wilson fan should read is his new autobiography, Dreaming To Some Purpose.
Wikipedia has a good introduction to Colin Wilson.
-
posted by Independent Scholarship at 7:48 PM on October 2, 2005
I've never seen anything quite like Waking Life, but Ghost in the Shell: Innocence had a lot of talky scenes that would of fit right in to that movie (which was noticed by some reviewers)... and my recollection is a little hazy, but Mike Leigh's Naked had a really dark portrait of the wandering intellectual in a sort of anti-Waking Life way.
posted by bobo123 at 8:18 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by bobo123 at 8:18 PM on October 2, 2005
Check out Mindwalk. Entire movie is a few "characters" slowly walking around Mont. St. Michael in France, talking about physics and "New Age" stuff. Very interesting and compelling. Some pretty big actors for a plotless movie.
posted by zardoz at 8:18 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by zardoz at 8:18 PM on October 2, 2005
The Sibyl by Par Lagerkviist
Woman in the Dunes (the film is as good as the book)
I read reams of SF as a kid and many authors were exploring issues of consciousness and morality and so on.
Theodore Sturgeon, Phillip K. Dick to name two.
It seems that it is somewhat a question of perspective also. I suppose "Groundhog Day" might qualify.
posted by pointilist at 8:20 PM on October 2, 2005
Woman in the Dunes (the film is as good as the book)
I read reams of SF as a kid and many authors were exploring issues of consciousness and morality and so on.
Theodore Sturgeon, Phillip K. Dick to name two.
It seems that it is somewhat a question of perspective also. I suppose "Groundhog Day" might qualify.
posted by pointilist at 8:20 PM on October 2, 2005
Response by poster: I guess the difference between Waking Life and Groundhog days is that with Groundhog Day, there are philosophical 'themes'. But in Waking Life the people are 'talking philosophy'. The latter is what Im looking for in particular.
If Waking Life is like a freshman course in philosophy, I wonder what I can expose myself to in order to take it to the next level... Ive taken 1st through 3rd yr courses in philosophy but...
posted by dino terror at 9:12 PM on October 2, 2005
If Waking Life is like a freshman course in philosophy, I wonder what I can expose myself to in order to take it to the next level... Ive taken 1st through 3rd yr courses in philosophy but...
posted by dino terror at 9:12 PM on October 2, 2005
MindWalk bored the shit out of me, and I have a B.A. in philosophy. I recommend I Heart Huckabee's, although the special effects were unnecessary and a bit goofy.
I thought Fearless has some good stuff in it. I also recently saw Crash and enjoyed that one. I wish I kept a list of movies that really made me think. It would be short but worth keeping around.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 9:35 PM on October 2, 2005
I thought Fearless has some good stuff in it. I also recently saw Crash and enjoyed that one. I wish I kept a list of movies that really made me think. It would be short but worth keeping around.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 9:35 PM on October 2, 2005
is Slacker too obvious?
or, is it just so obvious...
posted by hellbient at 9:45 PM on October 2, 2005
or, is it just so obvious...
posted by hellbient at 9:45 PM on October 2, 2005
I've seen a lot of the films mentioned and and you're right that many of them (such as Groundhog Day) just deal with philosophical themes and are not explicity philisophical. GITS: Innocence at least talks about Descartes, though it's nowhere near as talky as Waking Life, it's more about the visuals.
posted by bobo123 at 10:12 PM on October 2, 2005
posted by bobo123 at 10:12 PM on October 2, 2005
I guess the difference between Waking Life and Groundhog days is that with Groundhog Day, there are philosophical 'themes'. But in Waking Life the people are 'talking philosophy'. The latter is what Im looking for in particular.
Most if not all of the movies listed above fall more into the 'philosophical themes' camp than the 'talking philosophy' camp. (Any good movie will end up having philosophical themes!) I can't think of any other movie that's as explicitly philosophy-talk-centered as is Waking Life. Maybe Derek Jarman's Wittgenstein movie, but while it's kind of fun, you probably won't get much useful philosophy out of it. What The [Bleep] Do We Know doesn't count as philosophy; it's spiritual gobbledegook.
If you're interested in hearing people explicitly talk about philosophy, I'm not sure why you want to approach philosophy "from the outside", as you put it. Waking Life and its literary partner Sophie's World do not have any more "little nuggets of wisdom or ideas we pick up from a story or a well-turned phrase" than a good text by a philosopher. It sounds like you're thinking of "inside the discipline of philosophy" as a world of textbooks and dry scholarship, but it really does not have to be that way. If you're looking for the kind of discussion that's in Waking Life, then I recommend testing the waters of philosophy proper.
I think that something you really might want to look into is a book called The Mind's I, edited by Daniel Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter. It's a collection of short stories and fanciful philosophy papers, each of which features a philosophical discussion following it. Many people find it to be entertaining. And because many of the stories and excerpts are by non-philosophers, it sort of meets your criteria.
posted by painquale at 11:18 PM on October 2, 2005
Most if not all of the movies listed above fall more into the 'philosophical themes' camp than the 'talking philosophy' camp. (Any good movie will end up having philosophical themes!) I can't think of any other movie that's as explicitly philosophy-talk-centered as is Waking Life. Maybe Derek Jarman's Wittgenstein movie, but while it's kind of fun, you probably won't get much useful philosophy out of it. What The [Bleep] Do We Know doesn't count as philosophy; it's spiritual gobbledegook.
If you're interested in hearing people explicitly talk about philosophy, I'm not sure why you want to approach philosophy "from the outside", as you put it. Waking Life and its literary partner Sophie's World do not have any more "little nuggets of wisdom or ideas we pick up from a story or a well-turned phrase" than a good text by a philosopher. It sounds like you're thinking of "inside the discipline of philosophy" as a world of textbooks and dry scholarship, but it really does not have to be that way. If you're looking for the kind of discussion that's in Waking Life, then I recommend testing the waters of philosophy proper.
I think that something you really might want to look into is a book called The Mind's I, edited by Daniel Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter. It's a collection of short stories and fanciful philosophy papers, each of which features a philosophical discussion following it. Many people find it to be entertaining. And because many of the stories and excerpts are by non-philosophers, it sort of meets your criteria.
posted by painquale at 11:18 PM on October 2, 2005
Making Names is a pretty nice introduction to metaphysics.
posted by Gyan at 5:15 AM on October 3, 2005
posted by Gyan at 5:15 AM on October 3, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by null terminated at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2005 [1 favorite]