My husband is driving me nuts (is it just me?)
September 2, 2013 12:14 PM Subscribe
I've been married to my husband for almost 22 years. We are in our mid-forties. We have 3 kids, a 15 1/2 yo son and 10 yo b-g twins. I am being driven crazy by a certain aspect of my husband's behavior/personality. For example, earlier today I noticed a scratch on the lower part of our refrigerator door. The fridge is black and about a year and half old. I mentioned it to my husband. He inspected it and immediately called our children in to the kitchen to ask who did the damage. (More...)
My twins both said, "Not me!" My oldest said, "I don't know." My husband got angry and said that until they could figure it out they were banned from watching t.v. They all started to leave when my husband specifically stopped my oldest son. He angrily told him that saying, "I don't know won't cut it in the real world." He continued saying, "Try saying that to a police officer if you're questioned about something."
After some investigation my husband and I figured out the source of the sctratch. It turned out that the twins had been playing "cars" in the kitchen. The metal pole that was used to make a steering wheel holder for the plastic plate had struck the door. My husband brought the two of them back after we'd figured out the source of the scratch. The two of them filled in the details. It was a complete accident. They weren't even aware it had happened.
I talked to my husband about his reponse to our older son. This wasn't the first time he, in my opinion, overreacted to our oldest. When I say that to him I usually get one of a couple of responses: he says I am polarizing against him or he storms off saying,"I'm not talking to you anymore."
Some pertinent info: We are an African American family, living in the South. We are both professionals, we live in the suburbs, we are articulate, law abiding citizens. Our children are all well behaved and smart kids. My husband works as upper management for a large company. He has two offices: one is in an affluent, mostly white area of town, the other (his primary office), is, well, the opposite. He has noticed the disparity of police treatment, in regards to minorities, in the two areas his offices are located in.
In terms of his coveying his experiences of what it means to be an African American male in our society, I defer to him, when it comes to our sons. I do, however, wonder if he is being a little bit crazy at times. Like today, when discussing this incidence of our son saying, "I don't know." I explained that I feel like our son's response was normal, especially for a teenager, who we later found out, REALLY didn't know what had happened to cause the scratch! My husband turned the coversation to my son being questioned by the police or a boss in the future and how the, "I don't know" response could possibly get him thrown in jail or fired! WTF?! I understand his concern about our sons and possible police harrassment in the future, although, truthfully, I do think it is such a remote possibility that I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it.
I cannot really tell if my husband is feeling anxious about something unspoken or if he is just physically unable to see that he is overracting and (gasp) could possibly admit he is wrong! I am getting tired of trying to figure this out. I need outside perspective of what is going on here. Thanks in advance.
My twins both said, "Not me!" My oldest said, "I don't know." My husband got angry and said that until they could figure it out they were banned from watching t.v. They all started to leave when my husband specifically stopped my oldest son. He angrily told him that saying, "I don't know won't cut it in the real world." He continued saying, "Try saying that to a police officer if you're questioned about something."
After some investigation my husband and I figured out the source of the sctratch. It turned out that the twins had been playing "cars" in the kitchen. The metal pole that was used to make a steering wheel holder for the plastic plate had struck the door. My husband brought the two of them back after we'd figured out the source of the scratch. The two of them filled in the details. It was a complete accident. They weren't even aware it had happened.
I talked to my husband about his reponse to our older son. This wasn't the first time he, in my opinion, overreacted to our oldest. When I say that to him I usually get one of a couple of responses: he says I am polarizing against him or he storms off saying,"I'm not talking to you anymore."
Some pertinent info: We are an African American family, living in the South. We are both professionals, we live in the suburbs, we are articulate, law abiding citizens. Our children are all well behaved and smart kids. My husband works as upper management for a large company. He has two offices: one is in an affluent, mostly white area of town, the other (his primary office), is, well, the opposite. He has noticed the disparity of police treatment, in regards to minorities, in the two areas his offices are located in.
In terms of his coveying his experiences of what it means to be an African American male in our society, I defer to him, when it comes to our sons. I do, however, wonder if he is being a little bit crazy at times. Like today, when discussing this incidence of our son saying, "I don't know." I explained that I feel like our son's response was normal, especially for a teenager, who we later found out, REALLY didn't know what had happened to cause the scratch! My husband turned the coversation to my son being questioned by the police or a boss in the future and how the, "I don't know" response could possibly get him thrown in jail or fired! WTF?! I understand his concern about our sons and possible police harrassment in the future, although, truthfully, I do think it is such a remote possibility that I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it.
I cannot really tell if my husband is feeling anxious about something unspoken or if he is just physically unable to see that he is overracting and (gasp) could possibly admit he is wrong! I am getting tired of trying to figure this out. I need outside perspective of what is going on here. Thanks in advance.
To me there are several issues here that not only involve your son, but you.
As an example, This wasn't the first time he, in my opinion, overreacted to our oldest. When I say that to him I usually get one of a couple of responses: he says I am polarizing against him or he storms off saying,"I'm not talking to you anymore."
I tend to be a person who withdraws and needs time to process an emotion or reaction, so I can understand initial withdrawal. But I think that it is unfair that he makes the blanket statement "I'm not talking to you" and does not resolve it. I think that this is not helpful to you nor your child if you want to raise the kids as a team.
I think it would be okay for him to temporarily walk away, but agree to sit down with you at a day, week, or whatever time point in the future.
Now the other aspect. A conversation that I think your husband should address with you is: How would he want his son to respond if he is not guilty and truly knows nothing about the incident. Unfortunately, there are numerous cases in the news even of young teenagers and adults of (any) color confessing to crimes that they did not commit and some of them end up in jail. So A) is that truly how he wants his son to behave, to confess knowledge or doing an act that he did not do? If his answer is yes, then B) what should happen when society/the police/court make the wrong decision (i.e. put a person in jail for something that they did not do)? If the answer is apologize, then why not begin to make that change at home and apologize to his son for being wrong? Or let's say that your husband truly wants to prepare your son for the outside world. Does he truly want this to continue at a societal level every single day? If not, why not make this change at home?
posted by Wolfster at 12:36 PM on September 2, 2013 [9 favorites]
As an example, This wasn't the first time he, in my opinion, overreacted to our oldest. When I say that to him I usually get one of a couple of responses: he says I am polarizing against him or he storms off saying,"I'm not talking to you anymore."
I tend to be a person who withdraws and needs time to process an emotion or reaction, so I can understand initial withdrawal. But I think that it is unfair that he makes the blanket statement "I'm not talking to you" and does not resolve it. I think that this is not helpful to you nor your child if you want to raise the kids as a team.
I think it would be okay for him to temporarily walk away, but agree to sit down with you at a day, week, or whatever time point in the future.
Now the other aspect. A conversation that I think your husband should address with you is: How would he want his son to respond if he is not guilty and truly knows nothing about the incident. Unfortunately, there are numerous cases in the news even of young teenagers and adults of (any) color confessing to crimes that they did not commit and some of them end up in jail. So A) is that truly how he wants his son to behave, to confess knowledge or doing an act that he did not do? If his answer is yes, then B) what should happen when society/the police/court make the wrong decision (i.e. put a person in jail for something that they did not do)? If the answer is apologize, then why not begin to make that change at home and apologize to his son for being wrong? Or let's say that your husband truly wants to prepare your son for the outside world. Does he truly want this to continue at a societal level every single day? If not, why not make this change at home?
posted by Wolfster at 12:36 PM on September 2, 2013 [9 favorites]
I'm a white guy living in the North, so my life circumstances are very different from your family's. But I am also a trans guy and a parent of a child of color, and I do empathize with the difficulties of negotiating different parenting styles while trying to raise children who are both decent human beings, and prepared for the fact that they may be presumed by biased others not to be good people.
I think you might want to try to disentangle the issues being raised here in a talk with your spouse. One issue is differing parenting styles, in which it seems his style is more punitive/authoritarian than yours. Another is how negative a picture of the dangers of bigotry you wish to paint for your children (and perhaps, more deeply, how threatened you yourselves feel by figures of authority who are often white). Yes, as an African American man, your husband will have experiences that differ from yours as a woman, and it is worth talking about that, but there's more here--you're different people, with your own ways of seeing the world and of conceiving of the best way to prepare your children to flourish in it.
It does sound like you're going through a rough patch in your marriage, with you feeling your husband is overreacting in a crazy manner, and him saying he doesn't want to talk to you. So you might want to consider talking things out with the help of a professional. I'd suggest that professional be someone who can understand the context, so someone who is African American themselves, or at least a person of color or someone experienced in marginalization. (This can help not just with their comprehension, but with your husband's and your feeling of trust in their input.)
posted by DrMew at 12:40 PM on September 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think you might want to try to disentangle the issues being raised here in a talk with your spouse. One issue is differing parenting styles, in which it seems his style is more punitive/authoritarian than yours. Another is how negative a picture of the dangers of bigotry you wish to paint for your children (and perhaps, more deeply, how threatened you yourselves feel by figures of authority who are often white). Yes, as an African American man, your husband will have experiences that differ from yours as a woman, and it is worth talking about that, but there's more here--you're different people, with your own ways of seeing the world and of conceiving of the best way to prepare your children to flourish in it.
It does sound like you're going through a rough patch in your marriage, with you feeling your husband is overreacting in a crazy manner, and him saying he doesn't want to talk to you. So you might want to consider talking things out with the help of a professional. I'd suggest that professional be someone who can understand the context, so someone who is African American themselves, or at least a person of color or someone experienced in marginalization. (This can help not just with their comprehension, but with your husband's and your feeling of trust in their input.)
posted by DrMew at 12:40 PM on September 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
When I say that to him I usually get one of a couple of responses: he says I am polarizing against him or he storms off saying,"I'm not talking to you anymore."
This is unreasonable and not how adults interact with one another.
They all started to leave when my husband specifically stopped my oldest son. He angrily told him that saying, "I don't know won't cut it in the real world." He continued saying, "Try saying that to a police officer if you're questioned about something."
Was your son supposed to lie or pretend he was involved or something? Whatever "lesson" your husband is trying to teach, it is not being transmitted clearly and your son is probably feeling intimidated and confused.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 12:44 PM on September 2, 2013 [22 favorites]
This is unreasonable and not how adults interact with one another.
They all started to leave when my husband specifically stopped my oldest son. He angrily told him that saying, "I don't know won't cut it in the real world." He continued saying, "Try saying that to a police officer if you're questioned about something."
Was your son supposed to lie or pretend he was involved or something? Whatever "lesson" your husband is trying to teach, it is not being transmitted clearly and your son is probably feeling intimidated and confused.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 12:44 PM on September 2, 2013 [22 favorites]
Your husband has some issues, and we could speculate on them from now until the cows come home and we're not going to be able to tell you, with any certainty, what they are. His responses to you indicate someone who could use some therapy, that will be a decision he'll have to make.
Yes, being a black male in this culture is difficult, discrimination is widespread, black males are targeted in so many ways, there's no doubt your husband wants your son to be careful and protect himself. The question becomes how much is too much in terms of trying to teach your son these lessons.
You've not described him as being abusive, you've not described a situation which might be cause for alarm or concern, and you've not described actions or words on his part that are hateful or sound dangerous...
If I were you... I would be the balance in the family in terms of what is communicated to the kids, make sure he understands that you're doing this thoughtfully and because you love him and the children. I would also encourage him to seek some therapy for himself to sort out some of the anger and angry responses, and I would encourage both of you to do some couples/parenting classes to bring some consistency into the manner in which the kids are raised...
Hang in there, I suspect he's basically a good guy that wants the best for his kids but is doing it a bit poorly.
posted by HuronBob at 1:03 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, being a black male in this culture is difficult, discrimination is widespread, black males are targeted in so many ways, there's no doubt your husband wants your son to be careful and protect himself. The question becomes how much is too much in terms of trying to teach your son these lessons.
You've not described him as being abusive, you've not described a situation which might be cause for alarm or concern, and you've not described actions or words on his part that are hateful or sound dangerous...
If I were you... I would be the balance in the family in terms of what is communicated to the kids, make sure he understands that you're doing this thoughtfully and because you love him and the children. I would also encourage him to seek some therapy for himself to sort out some of the anger and angry responses, and I would encourage both of you to do some couples/parenting classes to bring some consistency into the manner in which the kids are raised...
Hang in there, I suspect he's basically a good guy that wants the best for his kids but is doing it a bit poorly.
posted by HuronBob at 1:03 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think this has to be discussed in a neutral time and place, and maybe should be approached as you asking him about his perspective and goals so the two of you can find a way to be a united front along with some compromise and more clarity.
I think he means well, it just doesn't seem like he's expressing it very well.
If that means you guys need to get a counselor for the express purpose of coming together and being on-message about this one thing, it can't hurt.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think he means well, it just doesn't seem like he's expressing it very well.
If that means you guys need to get a counselor for the express purpose of coming together and being on-message about this one thing, it can't hurt.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's not helpful to tell someone that they are doing something wrong without also telling them how to do it right. So your husband can object to the "I don't know" response for whatever reasons he has. But he also needs to coach your son on what a better response would be and why that is better. Similarly, if you want to express concerns about your husband's reaction to your son, also coach him on how to more effectively word his concerns so that your son knows what to say the next time and why that is a better response.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2013 [9 favorites]
I think your husband is probably legitimately fearful about the stats for young black males, which are not great. Your husband may see more of these outcomes through his job, which may be augmenting his fears.
I'd try to get to the root of this and find out what, exactly, he's aiming for with this tough love approach. Is your husband afraid? Is your husband trying to teach your son to deal protectively with the police? Is he trying to somehow inoculate your son against them?
If this is what he's doing, I'd make the point that blame-based parenting isn't doing that; it's just alienating your son from one of the key indicators for good outcomes (present father) in some kind of weird Oewellian setup where he literally can't win.
Maybe take a look at this. The information Levar Burton gave his son is indicative of the practicalities your son needs to know. Your husband needs to find a better way to educate your son about this, if that's what's going on here. I'd also consider find a (black!) criminal lawyer who will spend an hour with your son and maybe your husband talking very, very concretely about what to do when faced with various situations that endanger young black males - either a family friend or a paid consult.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:25 PM on September 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
I'd try to get to the root of this and find out what, exactly, he's aiming for with this tough love approach. Is your husband afraid? Is your husband trying to teach your son to deal protectively with the police? Is he trying to somehow inoculate your son against them?
If this is what he's doing, I'd make the point that blame-based parenting isn't doing that; it's just alienating your son from one of the key indicators for good outcomes (present father) in some kind of weird Oewellian setup where he literally can't win.
Maybe take a look at this. The information Levar Burton gave his son is indicative of the practicalities your son needs to know. Your husband needs to find a better way to educate your son about this, if that's what's going on here. I'd also consider find a (black!) criminal lawyer who will spend an hour with your son and maybe your husband talking very, very concretely about what to do when faced with various situations that endanger young black males - either a family friend or a paid consult.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:25 PM on September 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
In my experience it makes people a bit irate if you commit an act of sociology on them, but after the initial upset it's a lot easier for everybody to discuss. With that in mind, I recommend finding a copy of Unequal Childhoods: Class, Race, and Family Life, as this sounds like a good place to commit said act of sociology; see if he's willing to read it and talk about his parenting viewed through that lens.
posted by kmennie at 1:29 PM on September 2, 2013
posted by kmennie at 1:29 PM on September 2, 2013
I can't speak to the race part of this equation. But I will say that when I was a child and adolescent and I screwed up in some way, and my father became angry, the following interaction took place over and over:
me: I'm sorry!
Dad: SORRY DOESN'T CUT IT!
There is no possible response to that kind of feedback from a parent, and I immediately identified with your son in this story. I actually WAS sorry, and your son actually DIDN'T know, and to get a sort of "that's not good enough" rant in response was extremely stressful for me well into my twenties.
Now that I've lived longer and learned to understand my father better, I know that what he was actually trying to say was "Daughter, when you fail to follow instructions, think before you act, or think of other people, I feel disrespected and I worry about your ability to see beyond the end of your nose. These behaviors are forming a pattern that could easily become a problem in your future life, and there will come a point when you are an adult that small mistakes will become much larger ones, and feeling bad about them after the fact will not do you any good once actual consequences are looming. Let's talk about how to develop new practices for fulfilling your household responsibilities."
Here's the thing-- I could have really used the conversation that he wasn't having with me (just like it might actually be good for your husband to start talking to your son about endemic racism and developing an appropriate strategy/affect/response style for future situations when the stakes will be much higher). But that conversation never happened for me, and "SORRY DOESN'T CUT IT" did nothing to help me fix the problems my father correctly but incoherently and therefore ineffectively predicted would cause problems in my adult years.
Have you tried validating your husband's concerns, but pointing out that your son is unlikely to respond constructively to his current approach? Your son might well experience a future of people assuming he's up to no good (thanks, racism), but I'm not sure that having his father begin performing that style of interaction will train him for how to respond to it with anything other than sheer resentment. A calm and collected conversation about where his worries are coming from and how your son can begin thinking about his future experiences would probably be better for both of them.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:34 PM on September 2, 2013 [54 favorites]
me: I'm sorry!
Dad: SORRY DOESN'T CUT IT!
There is no possible response to that kind of feedback from a parent, and I immediately identified with your son in this story. I actually WAS sorry, and your son actually DIDN'T know, and to get a sort of "that's not good enough" rant in response was extremely stressful for me well into my twenties.
Now that I've lived longer and learned to understand my father better, I know that what he was actually trying to say was "Daughter, when you fail to follow instructions, think before you act, or think of other people, I feel disrespected and I worry about your ability to see beyond the end of your nose. These behaviors are forming a pattern that could easily become a problem in your future life, and there will come a point when you are an adult that small mistakes will become much larger ones, and feeling bad about them after the fact will not do you any good once actual consequences are looming. Let's talk about how to develop new practices for fulfilling your household responsibilities."
Here's the thing-- I could have really used the conversation that he wasn't having with me (just like it might actually be good for your husband to start talking to your son about endemic racism and developing an appropriate strategy/affect/response style for future situations when the stakes will be much higher). But that conversation never happened for me, and "SORRY DOESN'T CUT IT" did nothing to help me fix the problems my father correctly but incoherently and therefore ineffectively predicted would cause problems in my adult years.
Have you tried validating your husband's concerns, but pointing out that your son is unlikely to respond constructively to his current approach? Your son might well experience a future of people assuming he's up to no good (thanks, racism), but I'm not sure that having his father begin performing that style of interaction will train him for how to respond to it with anything other than sheer resentment. A calm and collected conversation about where his worries are coming from and how your son can begin thinking about his future experiences would probably be better for both of them.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:34 PM on September 2, 2013 [54 favorites]
how the, "I don't know" response could possibly get him thrown in jail or fired! WTF?!
The phrase, "I don't know," can be perceived in so many ways, and many of them are negative. It can come across as sullen, uncooperative, thoughtless, ignorant, hostile, etc. etc. At best, it's an incomplete answer. When he asked your son about the scratch on the refrigerator, your son could have said, "I don't know where that mark came from. I hadn't noticed it before, and I can't think of anything I've done that could have caused it." Responding with a bare minimum of words is both a really common teenage way of communicating, and (I find) a really irritating way of communicating.
But, all that said, I think I see a bigger picture. It sounds like maybe your husband has lost some ground with your kids--they're used to him overreacting to small things and imposing angry punishments, so they have an attitude of, "Oh, this again," and shuffle off instead of giving him the satisfaction of an argument he's guaranteed to win ('cause he's the dad, whether or not he's right about this particular thing). So as they're shuffling off, maybe your husband gets even madder about his apparent lack of influence over them, and then he lashes out at your eldest because, for one thing, teenagers can be easier to blame than younger kids, and for another, parenting a teenager means watching your kid get closer and closer to being on his own. Your teenager is less than three years away from being out in a world where he'll be surrounded by people who don't love him, many of whom will make (often negative) assumptions (big and small) about him based on his status as a young black man. In that context, his sullen teenager act takes on bigger, scarier meaning.
So, I think the conversation to have with your husband has to be along the lines of, "When everything is crisis-level anger and punishment, the kids take your anger and punishments less seriously. I think you need to choose your battles, and figure out how to talk to the kids about minor things that bother you without getting angry and yelling." I also think that it would be worth explicitly strategizing with your husband about what you want your teenage son to know about staying safe and succeeding in a society that is, in some ways, rigged against him.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2013 [8 favorites]
The phrase, "I don't know," can be perceived in so many ways, and many of them are negative. It can come across as sullen, uncooperative, thoughtless, ignorant, hostile, etc. etc. At best, it's an incomplete answer. When he asked your son about the scratch on the refrigerator, your son could have said, "I don't know where that mark came from. I hadn't noticed it before, and I can't think of anything I've done that could have caused it." Responding with a bare minimum of words is both a really common teenage way of communicating, and (I find) a really irritating way of communicating.
But, all that said, I think I see a bigger picture. It sounds like maybe your husband has lost some ground with your kids--they're used to him overreacting to small things and imposing angry punishments, so they have an attitude of, "Oh, this again," and shuffle off instead of giving him the satisfaction of an argument he's guaranteed to win ('cause he's the dad, whether or not he's right about this particular thing). So as they're shuffling off, maybe your husband gets even madder about his apparent lack of influence over them, and then he lashes out at your eldest because, for one thing, teenagers can be easier to blame than younger kids, and for another, parenting a teenager means watching your kid get closer and closer to being on his own. Your teenager is less than three years away from being out in a world where he'll be surrounded by people who don't love him, many of whom will make (often negative) assumptions (big and small) about him based on his status as a young black man. In that context, his sullen teenager act takes on bigger, scarier meaning.
So, I think the conversation to have with your husband has to be along the lines of, "When everything is crisis-level anger and punishment, the kids take your anger and punishments less seriously. I think you need to choose your battles, and figure out how to talk to the kids about minor things that bother you without getting angry and yelling." I also think that it would be worth explicitly strategizing with your husband about what you want your teenage son to know about staying safe and succeeding in a society that is, in some ways, rigged against him.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2013 [8 favorites]
My reaction is your husband is heavy-handed and lacks finesse. "I don't know" could be interpreted several ways but your husband only seems to have interpreted it one way: evasive. That, and his not wanting to talk to you, are things that would bother me a lot if I were in your shoes. So I don't think you are overreacting. I think you rightly expect better of him and are disappointed.
posted by Dansaman at 2:11 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dansaman at 2:11 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Husband seems to live in two worlds according to his offices. Could he be genuinely worried that the boy does not realize that he might be mistreated in the 'real' world? Even a university president in a nice care can be stopped by police. It is called DWB - driving while black - and it does happen.
Could husband have been humiliated by racial treatment recently, so that his nerves are a bit on edge? Could it simply be the old stag reacting to the (perceived) young stag?
posted by Cranberry at 2:19 PM on September 2, 2013
Could husband have been humiliated by racial treatment recently, so that his nerves are a bit on edge? Could it simply be the old stag reacting to the (perceived) young stag?
posted by Cranberry at 2:19 PM on September 2, 2013
Response by poster: I believe my son's tone was respectful. I believe my husband, normally, comes to a conclusion about how/why something happened. THEN he looks for evidence that backs up his conclusion. I am kind of a "facts" person. I will speculate, to a point, I am open to the possibility that I don't know something, especially in regards to human behavior. That is where my husband and I rub each other wrong. I have, over the years, learned to pick my battles.
I have tried discussing his nuclear response to some of the things our children do. I worry about his health. And, in his defense, he doesn't respond like that all of the time. It just seems that when he does it's over something seemingly small and my oldest son seems to be "the target."
posted by getyourlife at 2:44 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have tried discussing his nuclear response to some of the things our children do. I worry about his health. And, in his defense, he doesn't respond like that all of the time. It just seems that when he does it's over something seemingly small and my oldest son seems to be "the target."
posted by getyourlife at 2:44 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your husband's behavior sounds rather post-traumatic from his own unfairly negative experiences from being on the "wrong" side of the racial lens. Also, it sounds like he's acting out his trauma on his son, recreating the heated moments in which he was judged punitively at that age. IANAT, but I don't see how racially-based intergenerational trauma can be much different from other forms of trauma (it's certainly acknowledged among the minority indigenous population in Canada and, as I understand it, is applicable to any once-indigenous population that has been displaced via colonialism). Maybe your oldest son's age is unconsciously triggering for your husband bad memories of experiences he had at that age.
Perhaps your husband would greatly benefit from the help and support of other men to detangle the racial baggage forced upon him in his youth. This idea might be somewhat airy-fairy, but would it be possible to coax him into (or start) a support group focused on delineating experiences of racism for minority men? I think your husband's anxious fears could use some real life affirmation from other men going through similar anxieties. It sounds like he's probably doing the best he can to balance his emotional luggage with his responsibilities. However, push come to shove, he could use some help in ways which he himself was shortchanged by fellow men. A support network for figuring out more transcendent outcomes/responses to model for one's children may prove especially useful as your younger children reach the same age. Just my two cents.
posted by human ecologist at 3:42 PM on September 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Perhaps your husband would greatly benefit from the help and support of other men to detangle the racial baggage forced upon him in his youth. This idea might be somewhat airy-fairy, but would it be possible to coax him into (or start) a support group focused on delineating experiences of racism for minority men? I think your husband's anxious fears could use some real life affirmation from other men going through similar anxieties. It sounds like he's probably doing the best he can to balance his emotional luggage with his responsibilities. However, push come to shove, he could use some help in ways which he himself was shortchanged by fellow men. A support network for figuring out more transcendent outcomes/responses to model for one's children may prove especially useful as your younger children reach the same age. Just my two cents.
posted by human ecologist at 3:42 PM on September 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Your husband sounds a fairly typical grumpy-dad. How much downtime does he get? How much playtime do you and your family engage in? How much alone time do you and your husband get together?
It sounds a little like he might be stressed out about something, and it is rubbing off on the family.
posted by gjc at 3:49 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
It sounds a little like he might be stressed out about something, and it is rubbing off on the family.
posted by gjc at 3:49 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
There is probably a lot going on here, but one thing to consider is your role in calling his attention to the problem. You say you "mentioned it?" How did you mention it? What other things do you mention in a similar way? I'm not pointing fingers here. As I said, there are probably a number of things happening, but this is one thing you might be able to exert some direct influence over.
posted by Good Brain at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Good Brain at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Would it help if you approached your husband about it in a different way and at a different time?
Like say while going through other household logistical stuff, say "I was thinking, now that he's almost got his driver's license [or whatever milestone is on point] that it might be a good idea for you to have a chat with Junior about what to say if he ever gets pulled over by cops." And have a calm conversation about what he thinks the right responses are, framed as "let's figure out the right wisdom to share with Junior." Maybe this would work better than trying to deal with this obviously fraught subject at times when he's upset and the boys are sulky.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:06 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Like say while going through other household logistical stuff, say "I was thinking, now that he's almost got his driver's license [or whatever milestone is on point] that it might be a good idea for you to have a chat with Junior about what to say if he ever gets pulled over by cops." And have a calm conversation about what he thinks the right responses are, framed as "let's figure out the right wisdom to share with Junior." Maybe this would work better than trying to deal with this obviously fraught subject at times when he's upset and the boys are sulky.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:06 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
For a father, "I don't know" can be three of the most frustrating words in the English language. While one can say "I don't know" and be perfectly genuine - as was likely the case here - it is more common that "I don't know" is a way out for a child or teen, that they are either being evasive (and effectively ending the discussion without resolution) or are being passive (and just taking whatever comes).
Here's a question: did your oldest look your husband in his eyes when he said "I don't know"? If not, your husband may have a genuine concern about your oldest being too passive when confronted with an accusation. That kind of passivity will, at some point in your son's life, come off as suspect when the son is directly accused of something by a boss or a police officer. If your son happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, looking away while saying "I don't know" to a police officer might well get him searched or taken to the station, while if he was assertive but respectful, and presented a clear alibi, the situation might not escalate. I strongly suspect that this is what your husband is trying to say.
This specific situation is low stakes, and it sounds like a massive overreaction. But if your oldest is passive and not assertive in other matters, this may be a long-time sticking point with your husband as the son grows older and needs to be more independent; your husband may be reacting to all of his similar experiences with the son rather than just this single occurrence.
You may want to ask your husband what he thinks the son should say in a situation like this, and then, so long as it seems reasonable, ask him to coach the son on what he feels the son should say rather than merely criticize him for what he's saying.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Here's a question: did your oldest look your husband in his eyes when he said "I don't know"? If not, your husband may have a genuine concern about your oldest being too passive when confronted with an accusation. That kind of passivity will, at some point in your son's life, come off as suspect when the son is directly accused of something by a boss or a police officer. If your son happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, looking away while saying "I don't know" to a police officer might well get him searched or taken to the station, while if he was assertive but respectful, and presented a clear alibi, the situation might not escalate. I strongly suspect that this is what your husband is trying to say.
This specific situation is low stakes, and it sounds like a massive overreaction. But if your oldest is passive and not assertive in other matters, this may be a long-time sticking point with your husband as the son grows older and needs to be more independent; your husband may be reacting to all of his similar experiences with the son rather than just this single occurrence.
You may want to ask your husband what he thinks the son should say in a situation like this, and then, so long as it seems reasonable, ask him to coach the son on what he feels the son should say rather than merely criticize him for what he's saying.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
This is actually kind of a stereotype of some fathers, by the way; see this article from the satirical "fake news" magazine The Onion, for example.
Humor about how ridiculous it can get aside, though, it can be extremely damaging to grow up with someone who becomes so explosively and abusively angry seemingly at random. A particularly hurtful thing in my own experience is that I've never seen my relative who behaves like this treat anyone outside the family, or even in our extended family, this way. It's like he reserves the shittiest treatment for those closest to him.
(And I'm a white Northerner too, BTW, so this is by no means restricted to black or Southern culture IMO, if indeed it's an American thing in particular. The unbridled rage over a scratch on a refrigerator, I mean - racial discrimination from the police and elsewhere is obviously a very real and severe problem.)
posted by XMLicious at 5:54 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Humor about how ridiculous it can get aside, though, it can be extremely damaging to grow up with someone who becomes so explosively and abusively angry seemingly at random. A particularly hurtful thing in my own experience is that I've never seen my relative who behaves like this treat anyone outside the family, or even in our extended family, this way. It's like he reserves the shittiest treatment for those closest to him.
(And I'm a white Northerner too, BTW, so this is by no means restricted to black or Southern culture IMO, if indeed it's an American thing in particular. The unbridled rage over a scratch on a refrigerator, I mean - racial discrimination from the police and elsewhere is obviously a very real and severe problem.)
posted by XMLicious at 5:54 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
These kinds of situations (especially the ones that have become a pattern) are almost always a case of like, eight or nine different "things" happening at once. He's probably not being super intentional about it, anyway.
Also, most dads of teenage boys pretty much take almost the whole entirety of their kids' adolescence to start getting it right, as far as I can tell. I don't think I know a pair (guy and dad) who both agree they were getting it consistently right before the kid was in his early twenties at best. And eldest kids, and eldest boys especially, have all kinds of expectations on their shoulders on top of all of the rest of it. They're born the designated target, honestly - cf. the whole of human history.
Anyway, he's almost certainly really frustrated and doesn't feel like things are going the way he wants them to - probably because he just doesn't have the kind of power he wants or the power he has isn't getting him the results it "should" be (this is often especially bad when a guy is the king at the office and comes home to family members who don't have to agree with him in order to stick around.) No way to tell from this question to what extent the rest of the family (interactions between/amongst you all) have played into this dynamic as it stands now, but the odds are in favor of him not being the contributor.
Family counseling is pretty much the gold standard for "help us figure out what's going on here from an outside perspective, and help us make it better" type stuff.
posted by SMPA at 6:12 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, most dads of teenage boys pretty much take almost the whole entirety of their kids' adolescence to start getting it right, as far as I can tell. I don't think I know a pair (guy and dad) who both agree they were getting it consistently right before the kid was in his early twenties at best. And eldest kids, and eldest boys especially, have all kinds of expectations on their shoulders on top of all of the rest of it. They're born the designated target, honestly - cf. the whole of human history.
Anyway, he's almost certainly really frustrated and doesn't feel like things are going the way he wants them to - probably because he just doesn't have the kind of power he wants or the power he has isn't getting him the results it "should" be (this is often especially bad when a guy is the king at the office and comes home to family members who don't have to agree with him in order to stick around.) No way to tell from this question to what extent the rest of the family (interactions between/amongst you all) have played into this dynamic as it stands now, but the odds are in favor of him not being the contributor.
Family counseling is pretty much the gold standard for "help us figure out what's going on here from an outside perspective, and help us make it better" type stuff.
posted by SMPA at 6:12 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Another factor may be that your husband is in upper management at work. My brother is also in upper management at his job, and at work, if he so much as suggests that someone might need to jump, a whole lot of people are clamoring to be first in line to ask "how high?". However, he doesn't leave this at work, and will come to family events and expect everyone to defer to him.
When someone "scratches the refrigerator" at work (whatever that may be in his particular line of business), your husband probably asks his direct reports to figure out how it happened and who's responsible, and they all say, "Oh goodness, a scratched refrigerator, how terrible! We'll get to the bottom of this!", and they scurry off to handle it.
But personal relationships don't work that way. At work, "I don't know" isn't a great answer when something goes wrong with a project your subordinate is responsible for. But unless your son has been specifically put in charge of enameled surfaces and major appliances, "I don't know" is a totally reasonable answer from someone who genuinely... didn't do it and doesn't know.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:10 PM on September 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
When someone "scratches the refrigerator" at work (whatever that may be in his particular line of business), your husband probably asks his direct reports to figure out how it happened and who's responsible, and they all say, "Oh goodness, a scratched refrigerator, how terrible! We'll get to the bottom of this!", and they scurry off to handle it.
But personal relationships don't work that way. At work, "I don't know" isn't a great answer when something goes wrong with a project your subordinate is responsible for. But unless your son has been specifically put in charge of enameled surfaces and major appliances, "I don't know" is a totally reasonable answer from someone who genuinely... didn't do it and doesn't know.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:10 PM on September 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
You might want to read some of Barbara Coloroso's works on parenting. What you describe here sounds like "brick wall" parenting. She advocates a flexible "backbone" approach instead.
posted by Biblio at 7:33 PM on September 2, 2013
posted by Biblio at 7:33 PM on September 2, 2013
I actually think it's a good lesson not to say, "I don't know," without elaborating, for a variety of reasons. I know professionally if I ask one of my developers how something broke and they just say "I don't know," instead of, "I'm not sure yet, but I am still investigating," it really feels unprofessional like I'm being shirked off instead of informed. I think the issue isn't so much that he didn't accept the I don't know, but that he didn't articulate what your son should say instead to help him learn. I would wait until this is calmer (not right after a reprimand) and ask that he think of your son's needs to understand the correct behavior, not the behavior that's incorrect, and to explain why he shouldn't say something and give him a better example.
posted by itsonreserve at 6:51 AM on September 3, 2013
posted by itsonreserve at 6:51 AM on September 3, 2013
I'm a 46 year old white male, with two teenage step-kids from my wife's previous marriage. She divorced when her kids were both very young, and she has full custody other than a few three-day weekends and a few weeks in the summer, so I have been their main father-figure for most of their lives. And I try to be the World's Greatest Step-dad, I really do.
But the situation you described above with the refrigerator scratch, that's EXACTLY what used to happen with me sometimes. This completely irrational burning anger at the kids over something small, along with a hard-line insistence on RESPECT. And stonewalling my wife when she would call me out on it. And that's the way my father brought me up, the way he acted with my mother and my brothers and me. And through therapy and marriage counseling, I was able to come to the realization that I was pretty much channeling my own father because he provided my main example of how to be a father. And so I'm going to second Biblio's recommendation of the Barbara Coloroso books, which helped my family a great deal.
I'm sure that your family being African American and living in the South complicates things beyond my own experience. Like, I'm not real worried about what will happen if one of my kids gets confronted by a cop, because it's unlikely to happen because white kids in the South aren't automatically treated with suspicion. So my heart goes out to you for having that be a potential problem in your family. But I hope that the Coloroso books, and maybe some counseling, can help out with these other issues like it did with my family. Be blessed.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
But the situation you described above with the refrigerator scratch, that's EXACTLY what used to happen with me sometimes. This completely irrational burning anger at the kids over something small, along with a hard-line insistence on RESPECT. And stonewalling my wife when she would call me out on it. And that's the way my father brought me up, the way he acted with my mother and my brothers and me. And through therapy and marriage counseling, I was able to come to the realization that I was pretty much channeling my own father because he provided my main example of how to be a father. And so I'm going to second Biblio's recommendation of the Barbara Coloroso books, which helped my family a great deal.
I'm sure that your family being African American and living in the South complicates things beyond my own experience. Like, I'm not real worried about what will happen if one of my kids gets confronted by a cop, because it's unlikely to happen because white kids in the South aren't automatically treated with suspicion. So my heart goes out to you for having that be a potential problem in your family. But I hope that the Coloroso books, and maybe some counseling, can help out with these other issues like it did with my family. Be blessed.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Can you ask your husband to talk to your son(s) about ways to deal with authority and racial profiling at neutral times so he can refrain from giving them the same auto-antagonistic experience in their home?
posted by WeekendJen at 8:56 AM on September 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by WeekendJen at 8:56 AM on September 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I had mentioned up above that the over-the-top anger over a scratched refrigerator thing matches a cross-cultural stereotype of some fathers, but it's evidently even more widespread and timeless than I'd thought: I just stumbled across the senex iratus, a Latin term from Classical theatre for a category of stock character—the father who is "manifesting himself through his rages and threats, his obsessions and his gullibility".
posted by XMLicious at 1:16 AM on June 29, 2014
posted by XMLicious at 1:16 AM on June 29, 2014
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Talk to him about it. I definitely think he overreacted and should sit down to talk with your son and apologize. He really didn't know, and your son was probably hurt by his reaction. But your husband may not even be seeing it from that angle right now.
posted by fireandthud at 12:33 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]