Age-Gap Relationships in Europe

August 10, 2013 11:15 PM

I just finished watching Fat Girl (2001) [French: À ma soeur!], I'm currently reading A Certain Age by Rebecca Ray and I previously read and watched An Education. In every one of those films and/or books, an early teen (e.g. In A Certain Age the girl is 14.) has a boyfriend that is at least in his late twenties. In each case, the mother doesn't seem to mind, the father is only a bit annoyed and the man is even allowed to come to the house for dinner. Are these open age-gap relationships anomalies or are they common in Europe?
posted by lrnarabic to Society & Culture (25 answers total)

Are these open age-gap relationships anomalies...

Yes.

...or are they common in Europe?

No. Personally, having lived here since 1997, I've never known of one, and all of the parents of adolescents I know would have a pretty stern chat with the much-older person if they found out something like that was going on. Even relationships between low-20s women and mid-40s men raise an eyebrow, though most people won't say anything about it directly to them. (I've only known of about three or four, and all of them had hushed gossip about the age difference.)

Keep in mind that movies are rarely genuine representations of cultures at large. This goes both ways, I get all sorts of assumptions about Americans from Europeans that are based on American films.
posted by fraula at 12:52 AM on August 11, 2013 [4 favorites]

I have never seen this in the Netherlands.
posted by neushoorn at 12:55 AM on August 11, 2013

I feel they are more easygoing about age in some European countries -- I find that in Italy, ages tend to vary in kids who hang out together. For example, in the US and Australia, people tend to stick to friends in their year-- and year/seniority divisions feel more absolute. But in Europe, my friends ranged from 14-18, depending on the maturity of the younger kids. Some would date within the groups. Generally there was nobody over 18 though. But my cousin dated a 25 year old when she was 18 and never got any flack for it.

But I find the opposite is true, too. I noticed a few men dating women a few years older, and really not thinking about it at all, but it's highly stigmatized here. My Italian friend married a guy 7 years younger than her. They just had a baby two years ago -- she was 37 and he was 30.

But 14-25+ is not the norm at all and would definitely get frowned upon. That said, I feel it's pretty popular to see young girls 17-20 with a bit older men in Europe. It's more tolerated than I feel it is here.
posted by Dimes at 2:17 AM on August 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

I don't know the US attitude towards this kind of relationship, but I do know that such a large age gap would be frowned upon in Dutch society as I know it.

When I was a teen of around 14 years old, a gap of five years was considered too large by some, and worthy of comment by all. My parents would not have allowed me to date someone over 20.

I don't feel that the movies you describe represent reality.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:27 AM on August 11, 2013

The son of a friend of mine dated a 14 year old girl when he was 21. First, this was legal (Germany) and I found the age gap minor but his father (my friend) mad a big fuzz out of it ("child molester"!).
posted by yoyo_nyc at 2:34 AM on August 11, 2013

I don't know about Europe but it's very much class-based here in Oz, in my experience. The socio-economic strata* I grew up in barely batted an eye at 4-6 year gaps from about 13 for the younger participant, and more than one friend had a partner in their twenties. I was considered odd because when I realised that my 10 years older partner knew how young I was, I was horrified. To the people around me it was not at all unsettling to have a 27 year old and a 17 year old together (to make matter worse he was in the Army and I was still in school).

The idea that this would not just be okay, but considered good was less prevalent after I got the hell out of dodge (at 17) and hit something a little more like the middle-class. Age gaps were still around but those big diversities and the lower end of the age range were less extreme.

*Inter-generational welfare, working class if you were lucky, geographically isolated, enormous drug issues.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:39 AM on August 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

In Denmark it would be considered weird if a 20 year-old boy dated a 15 year-old girl (15 is the legal age). 25 year-old man dating a 17 year-old girl? Hugely problematic. I once met an 17 year-old girl who was dating a 33 year-old guy - her parents sent her to school in Britain to get rid of him but the guy would fly in every two weeks to visit her. I have often wondered what the heck that was all about.

I co-sign the "films often paint an unrealistic image" statement.
posted by kariebookish at 2:47 AM on August 11, 2013

No, this is not common in my (UK) experience.

Also - it's been years since I read A Certain Age, but isn't the important factor there that her family is kind of dysfunctional and isn't really paying attention to what's going on with their daughter's life even when it's not good? I read the "ok, bring your older boyfriend round for dinner" attitude in that light (and in the one real-life situation I knew where parents weren't outwardly disapproving of their 16-year-old daughter going out with a much older man, it was much the same.)
posted by Catseye at 4:02 AM on August 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

In Romania it is also pretty class-based and varies across the urban-rural divide, like geek anachronism described for OZ. You can legally marry at 16 (but you need to take a lot of official steps to do so, not just your parents' consent - there are actually meetings organised at a local government level to approve of the marriage, with interviews of all parties involved etc; they are mostly pro forma though), and mostly this tends to be between young girl and older man, sometimes much older. Marriages in villages frequently happen at much younger ages, and often between older men and younger women. The age-gaps are not huge though, ten years is considered noteworthy.

There is definitely a socio-economic element to it though, for example the Roma are mostly those who avail themselves of the permission to marry at 16 (fact from quite a few years back), and the couples are more often than not considered married in their community, might already share a household and just be a normal family since the woman was quite a bit younger (this is from conversations with people, so hearsay). The man is typically older, whilst the woman can be 14, 15.

At the same time, when I had a boyfriend at 22 who was cca. 20 years older than me, I didn't introduce him to my parents - would have done if the relationship progressed past a certain point, but didn't want the inevitable grief for no good reason. They would have been horrified.

Another thing you get is the sugar-daddy thing, as well as the "honest" sugar-daddy thing, by which I mean the couples where both involved are genuinely attracted to each other + care for each other, but where part of the attraction comes from the age gap (and the gap in experience, usually, but not always, finances etc). This is treated with contempt more than frowned on, necessarily, and the women in such couples also tend to be above 16. In some circles this kind of thing is seen as being uber-sophisticated - kind of French art-house cinema like.
posted by miorita at 4:06 AM on August 11, 2013

An Education is set over 50 years ago, a time in which age gaps were more common. (I'm nowhere near that old, but I remember concluding, from my childhood experiences around doctors' families, that mommies are 10 years younger than daddies.) Remember also that she doesn't tell her parents that David's her boyfriend, only that he has proposed (later on the movie). And her teachers don't approve, although her parents are star-struck by class envy into slacking on their duty to "protect her." So if we're specifically talking about her parents' expectations, we're talking about social attitudes forged in the early 1900s. I don't remember whether anything was said in the film of their original social class, but they are such insecure social climbers, it seems reasonable that they started in a lower class and have only precariously reached the middle class they're in at the time of the story. So once you're talking about the expectations of lower class people in the 1920s, you're in a situation similar to that described above in other European countries: girls often marry at 18 or so (because what else do they have to do?) to men who are already "established" economically.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 5:23 AM on August 11, 2013 [6 favorites]

So once you're talking about the expectations of lower class people in the 1920s, you're in a situation similar to that described above in other European countries: girls often marry at 18 or so (because what else do they have to do?) to men who are already "established" economically.

An interesting example of this type of relationship is Marguerite Duras's L'Amant (The Lover). Set in French Indochina in 1929, it tells the story of a 15-year-old French girl who enters into a relationship with a 27-year-old Chinese man. The relationship is tolerated by her family (the man is wealthy but the family is not), but they disapprove of the relationship, more because of the racial aspect than the age difference.

Duras later said that the novel was autobiographical, so there's one example of such a relationship happening. However, she may well have taken liberties with the details, and she did write the novel 55 years after the event.
posted by Johnny Assay at 6:32 AM on August 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Generally there was nobody over 18 though. But my cousin dated a 25 year old when she was 18 and never got any flack for it.

But I find the opposite is true, too. I noticed a few men dating women a few years older, and really not thinking about it at all, but it's highly stigmatized here. My Italian friend married a guy 7 years younger than her. They just had a baby two years ago -- she was 37 and he was 30.

Attitudes toward age gaps like these vary considerably in the US, too. I started dating my husband when I was 18 and he was 24; we're now pregnant at 29 and 35, and I can't remember the last time someone commented on our age difference. Probably back when I was 18, though I hardly got any flak for it then, either.

On the other hand, I also knew men in their 20s who dated girls in their early teens--15 and 16. This was widely seen as creepy, though some of these girls' parents tolerated it more than others, had the men over for dinner, etc.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2013

I don't know about Europe but it's very much class-based here in Oz, in my experience. The socio-economic strata* I grew up in barely batted an eye at 4-6 year gaps from about 13 for the younger participant, and more than one friend had a partner in their twenties.

This is interesting, geek anachronism. I'm also in Australia, and have never really thought of it as being class based, probably because I've never really thought of it at all.

I know that at my high school (private school, and middle class I suppose), having a boyfriend older than school age was severely frowned upon. Like, a 14-year-old could have a 16-year-old boyfriend, but a 15-year-old schoolgirl and an 18-year-old boyfriend who had left school? Things Would Be Said.
posted by Salamander at 6:49 AM on August 11, 2013

UK anecdata. When I was 16 my boyfriend was 21. My parents were not thrilled, but I was 16 and legal and they acknowledged that. Had I been under 16 it would not have been allowed. We were long-distance at first, and they let him stay at our house when he visited but in a different room. His parents were totally fine with it and I stayed in his room when I visited (he still lived with them). I don't remember my friends being weird about it, but he got a bit of side-eye from some of his.
posted by corvine at 6:59 AM on August 11, 2013

Of the films mentioned, I've only seen An Education, but I thought the point was that the parents were being willfully stupid. The commentary isn't on society but the family relationship, and the commentary is that it isn't very good.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:09 AM on August 11, 2013 [4 favorites]

A friend and I were discussing this a few years ago in Germany, where it seemed quite common for women in their late teens to have boyfriends in their late 20s. He had spent a lot of time in both the US and Europe, although he was often much more European in his sensibilities.

I recall that his take was that the US makes a big fuss over ages and age-appropraiteness, not just in dating, but in a lot of other ways. The arbitrary decision that one is ready to drive at 16, ready for sex at 18, and to drink at 21, for example. Broad, blanket proscriptions that are generally applied to everyone. The US invented terms like 'cougar' when there is a large age difference between a man and an older women. That there is a magazine called 'Barely Legal'. That there is a big focus in the US on dating 'age appropriate' partners.

In Europe, it's not that the labels were different or absent, just that the way of thinking was very different. For example, his view was that there was a greater separation in Europe between sex and love, whereas in the US, they were quite closely intertwined. Also, that gender roles were seen differently. It is possible for a man to be both strong and emotional in Europe. It is possible for a women to be both respectable and sexual. Whereas in America, there's generally a greater adherence to stereotypes. A man is either emotional or strong. A woman is either respectable or sexual.

Having lived in the UK for a number of years now, I do see that America has a lot of perceptual boundaries that seem steadfast and universal, but which are in reality just blanket socialisations.

Back to the original question, it would be weird if a 14 year old girl was dating a thirty year old man in most developed societies, because most developed societies recognise that there are children and adults. A 30 year old man is an adult, and a 14 year old girl is closer to a child. That shit is weird and wrong wherever you go.

But then it changes for a few reasons. In the US, there is the adolescent phase, that phase between childhood and adulthood. When someone is 18, they are a 'young adult', with still a lot more time to go before they become a functional adult. In Europe, it largely seems that when you are an adult, you are an adult.

So whilst it would be wrong for a 14 year old girl to be with a 30 year old man, there would be a lot less stigma for an 18 year old woman to be with a 30 year old man. In fact that does seem to be quite common.

So I guess my view is that it's not that there is an appreciation for age-gap culture in Europe, but that often the US seems super-obsessed with age and age-gaps.
posted by nickrussell at 8:25 AM on August 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

In Ireland this would be an anomaly, except sometimes among traditional Travellers, where the expectation would be of little physical contact, absolutely no premarital sex, and marriage to follow shortly. (So: only within very strict and very specific cultural boundaries.)
posted by DarlingBri at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2013

I think it has almost everything to do with the relative maturity and intentions of the partners. If the older partner was predatory in any way, or was somehow treating the younger partner as some kind of trophy, it would be super creepy. But if they were both nice people with good intentions who just happened to be different ages, much more tolerable.

I would certainly rather a child of mine came home with a nice 30 year old, over someone their own age who is a scumbag.

It would also depend on just how mature the younger person is. I've met 14 year olds who are way more mature than sheltered 21 year olds. If the younger partner was childlike, even if they were 30, I would be way more creeped out than if it was some 15 year old who could pass for 25.

Maybe, as a whole, Europe is just a little more open to discussing the idea than us Puritanical Americans.

Also, there is the rule of half your age + 7, which seems to imply that 14 is an absolute cut-off age. Creepy in one sense, but it also makes a sort of biological sense.
posted by gjc at 9:52 AM on August 11, 2013

Co-relation is not causation. But I remember reading a study that found that countries with greater average age difference between husband and wife also had greater pay difference between men and women.
posted by Neekee at 9:55 AM on August 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Is it widely acceptable? No, parents are concerned and friends think it's weird. Whether the parents opt for "stay where I can keep an eye on you" or "I forbid this relationship" depends on the temperament of all players.

Is it common? Eh, it's not uncommon to at least have at least one attempt at a relationship of some sort where there is a notable age gap, even if it doesn't progress all the way to sex and/or is just an ephemeral summer romance.
posted by desuetude at 11:17 AM on August 11, 2013

You can find some interesting (though quite abstract) data at the UNECE Statistical Database for mean age of first marriage by year and country. Just looking at several larger European nations and the US, and limiting it to 10-year intervals, you see a relatively similar trend in all of them for much greater age at first marriage (early 20s in 1980, late 20s or even 30s in 2010), but inasmuch as this is across the whole population, the age gap remains relatively stable -- about 2 years older on average for males.

I think it puts paid to any notion that age-gap relationships are more common in Europe, because the US has the largest age gap of them all -- but only very slightly more (2.7 yrs in 1980, 2.1 years in 2010; France has gone from 2.1 yrs to 1.8 yrs).

So while it may be true that Europeans have greater social acceptance in a way, it doesn't seem like such relationships are really more common on a nationwide scale, and if anything, across all developed countries, more and more people are choosing partners closer to their own age.

For myself -- many years ago, in college, I dated an older woman who was a fellow student (we were both out of place in that particular environment for different reasons). Both my parents and my peers had weird reactions. It ended rather badly.
posted by dhartung at 5:33 PM on August 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

i've noticed this as well in french films and have wondered about it. maybe it's just because in our films we are more familiar with the actors so don't find it as strange to see someone like george clooney or harrison ford with a younger actress. interestingly, both are with younger women irl too. there is one french actor who i've seen in films with several attractive, younger actresses and i'm always wondering why they would be with him as opposed to some hot young french actor.
posted by wildflower at 5:55 PM on August 11, 2013

dhartung makes a great point about the statistics. Keep in mind, it doesn't give statistics for those who are not married though.

But I felt that anecdotally, at least in Italy, people just didn't care as much about age gaps (within reason) either way. Over a certain age, though. Under a certain age, generally under 18, people cared about the gap both ways.

Example. My parents had a 12 year age gap-- they got together when my mother was 20. My grandparents had an 18 (!) year age gap. He was 36 when they got together. My cousin dated this guy I mentioned before, she was 18-- he was 25. She is now married to a guy 6 years older, and her parents never said anything. Of course she was mid twenties by then. And then there is my friend who is 7 years older than her husband, too. He was 26 when they met.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but when I was there (I was 14) I liked an 17 year old, and my mother didn't say much about us, neither did our other friends. We never properly dated though, but we had interest in each other. However, when I was in the US, I dated a guy 4 years younger than me, and all my Australian friends said something about the age difference, even though we were both in our 20s then. I got a lot of, "I could never..." And he also got flack from his family and friends somewhat too. But I never got comments like that from my Italian side. There's a bit of a double standard regarding that, though.

I also never had such a wide age-range of friends in school in Australia-- in Italy, it was like, everyone hung around together within 3-4 years. In Australia, I only hung around people in my year until my first job, and even then. I never noticed a classist division or anything though.

Also the Berlusconi Underage Prostitute scandal didn't result in overwhelming outrage from the media and people in Italy like it would (I'm speculating) in the US or elsewhere. It resulted in quite a lot of criticism, but, not outright condemnation one would assume would follow. Although there's the fact he controls a large portion of media, and there are bans on political messages on the news. He also went to trial for it, and is being punished for it. But nevertheless, he still got 29% of the vote after this scandal, which I found kind of flabbergasting.

There was also a famous case recently, where a 22 year old girl (allegedly) killed her female cousin of 15, presumably because she was jealous. They liked the same guy -- the guy was 26. He maintains nothing romantic ever happened with either of the girls and it was just a crush, but nevertheless, he was at least friends with both of them, and the older cousin saw her as an actual threat somehow, despite her age. (The younger girl mentions in her diary that the older girl gets angry/bullies her for the mutual attention the younger girl and this guy show.) Even when this came out, nobody said much in the media about the age differences.

So I definitely feel people don't emphasize it as much. If it's not more prevalent, then it's at least more socially acceptable. But I mean, I only have anecdotes from one country, of course.
posted by Dimes at 9:52 PM on August 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Remember that the age of consent is lower in some countries - it's 16 in the UK, and when I was that age, it was very easy to go to bars and have drinks bought for you (they're stricter on ID now - they tend to ID anyone who they think looks under 21, even though the drinking age is 18) so some girls do hook up with guys a few years older. However, it's very much context dependent - I went out with someone who was 22 when I was 18, but had I gone out with someone who was 18 when I was 14, my parents would not have been pleased. I was expressly forbidden from going out for a drink with someone who was 24 when I was 16 (probably rightly).

The anomaly was someone we knew as a student who only seemed to date people twice her age, and eventually married one. I'm not sure whether she did so before leaving for university.
posted by mippy at 3:52 AM on August 12, 2013

> You can find some interesting (though quite abstract) data at the UNECE Statistical Database for mean age of first marriage by year and country.

I don't think that age of first marriage is a terribly relevant predictor of age gaps, as there is a whole enormous greater magnitude of social pressure around the importance of marrying someone acceptable in class/age/background -- these factors which are given more of a pass for a young pre-marital romance.
posted by desuetude at 8:02 PM on August 12, 2013