Which shelter dog: quiet four year old or eager puppy?
July 27, 2013 1:48 AM
We have narrowed down our choices to two dogs from a good shelter and would like dog advice. We are a big family with a toddler living in a flat next to a park, with one cat. We have had dogs always, but our last four all passed away and it's been a year without a dog in the house. One of our dogs was an abused rescue and bit children and was miserable a lot, so we really don't want to deal with another rehab dog. We did and will do obedience training and walks and plenty of time with the dog as there's always someone at home. The shelter is okay with either choice for us.
The first choice is about four years old, medium sized and has been at the shelter for two years plus now. He s clearly a favorite with the staff and affectionate to them, but he was pretty reserved with us. I walked him and he didn't pull and he also didn't flinch from being petted, but he didn't want to make eye contact. He was good with the toddler, even with food around (adults supervising closely of course), and he is apparently a very laid back and beta dog, preferring to avoid fights or confrontation with other dogs.
The other choice is one of a pair of four month old puppies. The other one is smart and stubborn and the boss of the pair, this one was more eager to get petted and please people. They were fostered and their fosterer had pet rabbits they had taught the puppies to ignore. Se had taught them some commands and they were very people friendly and cheerful. But they were also very energetic as puppies are.
Advice on how to decide much appreciated. Also, my kids are asking why we don't get the pair of puppies. We had three siblings rescue dogs who were amazing pets previously, but the thought of two puppies in a house makes me think I must be mad to even consider that. Should we?
How long would the puppy period of training last? The older dog has not really been trained either and would need to be potty trained and obedience trained too.
We want a dog that will be happy with us, a busy lively family, for the next 10-15 years.
The first choice is about four years old, medium sized and has been at the shelter for two years plus now. He s clearly a favorite with the staff and affectionate to them, but he was pretty reserved with us. I walked him and he didn't pull and he also didn't flinch from being petted, but he didn't want to make eye contact. He was good with the toddler, even with food around (adults supervising closely of course), and he is apparently a very laid back and beta dog, preferring to avoid fights or confrontation with other dogs.
The other choice is one of a pair of four month old puppies. The other one is smart and stubborn and the boss of the pair, this one was more eager to get petted and please people. They were fostered and their fosterer had pet rabbits they had taught the puppies to ignore. Se had taught them some commands and they were very people friendly and cheerful. But they were also very energetic as puppies are.
Advice on how to decide much appreciated. Also, my kids are asking why we don't get the pair of puppies. We had three siblings rescue dogs who were amazing pets previously, but the thought of two puppies in a house makes me think I must be mad to even consider that. Should we?
How long would the puppy period of training last? The older dog has not really been trained either and would need to be potty trained and obedience trained too.
We want a dog that will be happy with us, a busy lively family, for the next 10-15 years.
He s clearly a favorite with the staff and affectionate to them, but he was pretty reserved with us.
Here is why I think that is not necessarily a big deal.
I walked him and he didn't pull and he also didn't flinch from being petted, but he didn't want to make eye contact.
Refusing to make eye contact is a sign of submission. My dog is afraid of cats, he won't make eye contact with them and slides along the wall if he has to pass one in a hallway. To me that's a positive, or at least neutral sign.
My dog makes a lot of eye contact on walks (I almost always walk him off leash so I think he does this to make sure he's following my lead and staying with me). And when I am holding food he wants! But when we're just inside and I am petting him or something, a lot of the time he'll start refusing to make eye contact. It's okay.
posted by cairdeas at 2:22 AM on July 27, 2013
Here is why I think that is not necessarily a big deal.
I walked him and he didn't pull and he also didn't flinch from being petted, but he didn't want to make eye contact.
Refusing to make eye contact is a sign of submission. My dog is afraid of cats, he won't make eye contact with them and slides along the wall if he has to pass one in a hallway. To me that's a positive, or at least neutral sign.
My dog makes a lot of eye contact on walks (I almost always walk him off leash so I think he does this to make sure he's following my lead and staying with me). And when I am holding food he wants! But when we're just inside and I am petting him or something, a lot of the time he'll start refusing to make eye contact. It's okay.
posted by cairdeas at 2:22 AM on July 27, 2013
As a genera; rule, when you are chosing between two things and there is nothing particularly to choose between them, choose the greater good. It is IMHO a greater good to home the mature dog who has been there for two years than it is to home the puppy they'll have no issues finding a new owner for.
It is very likely the adult dog will perk up in a family home. Shelters are enormously stressful for dogs. It is not unusual for them to exhibit indifference at the shelter. Ours did, but within 24 hours had perked up and as she gained confidence in her new home, her personality emerged. She is still obedient and biddable and entirely aggressiveness but she's also became fun and silly and playful.
On a purely practical basis, while both dogs will need to be housetrained, house training a puppy is an every two-hours, months long endeavour due to bladder size. House training a fully-grown dog can take a week if you are a good trainer.
The joyous experience of others aside, you could not pay me to care for both a toddler and a puppy at the same time. A pair of puppies? Ha ha ha ha. No.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:45 AM on July 27, 2013
It is very likely the adult dog will perk up in a family home. Shelters are enormously stressful for dogs. It is not unusual for them to exhibit indifference at the shelter. Ours did, but within 24 hours had perked up and as she gained confidence in her new home, her personality emerged. She is still obedient and biddable and entirely aggressiveness but she's also became fun and silly and playful.
On a purely practical basis, while both dogs will need to be housetrained, house training a puppy is an every two-hours, months long endeavour due to bladder size. House training a fully-grown dog can take a week if you are a good trainer.
The joyous experience of others aside, you could not pay me to care for both a toddler and a puppy at the same time. A pair of puppies? Ha ha ha ha. No.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:45 AM on July 27, 2013
You have a cat?
Get the puppy. There's a chance the mature 'very laid back and beta dog' may just, one day, kill your cat.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:57 AM on July 27, 2013
Get the puppy. There's a chance the mature 'very laid back and beta dog' may just, one day, kill your cat.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:57 AM on July 27, 2013
My heart goes out to the good dog who has spent half his life in the shelter! Everyone else has passed him up for a younger dog too - don't make the same mistake.
I had a puppy once and now have sworn to myself that I would only adopt adult dogs or cats because I have realized how huge a plus it is to be able to have their personality be a known quantity (my cute puppy turned into quite a terror during her juvenile years, although she eventually calmed down and after much strife turned into a calm and sweet older dog).
Especially having a toddler on your hands I think you definitely want a dog that isn't going to make any unpredictable moves - meaning, not a puppy.
Also, just adding this although it was cats - we were making a similar choice between two kittens and two adult cats at the shelter, and I convinced my husband to go with the adult cats who had been at the shelter almost a year although he was "not sure about them." They would let us pet them but didn't seem overly friendly. Now they are the light of his life, and they are the best cats either one of us has ever had (and we've had a lot of cats between the two of us). Bottom line, it's true what the shelters say: their real personalities come out when they get to their forever home.
On preview, I don't see how getting a puppy ensures against some random unexpected act of violence.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 3:05 AM on July 27, 2013
I had a puppy once and now have sworn to myself that I would only adopt adult dogs or cats because I have realized how huge a plus it is to be able to have their personality be a known quantity (my cute puppy turned into quite a terror during her juvenile years, although she eventually calmed down and after much strife turned into a calm and sweet older dog).
Especially having a toddler on your hands I think you definitely want a dog that isn't going to make any unpredictable moves - meaning, not a puppy.
Also, just adding this although it was cats - we were making a similar choice between two kittens and two adult cats at the shelter, and I convinced my husband to go with the adult cats who had been at the shelter almost a year although he was "not sure about them." They would let us pet them but didn't seem overly friendly. Now they are the light of his life, and they are the best cats either one of us has ever had (and we've had a lot of cats between the two of us). Bottom line, it's true what the shelters say: their real personalities come out when they get to their forever home.
On preview, I don't see how getting a puppy ensures against some random unexpected act of violence.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 3:05 AM on July 27, 2013
DarlingBri has it.
It is IMHO a greater good to home the mature dog who has been there for two years than it is to home the puppy they'll have no issues finding a new owner
This, and:
house training a puppy is an every two-hours, months long endeavour due to bladder size.
I would love to have a puppy, but my husband and I both work outside the home, and one of us can only get to the house at lunchtime. It would be cruel to think a puppy could handle that (or another similarly busy schedule). Never mind adding in a toddler to the mix.
And anecdotally, we adopted our dog from a shelter. She was taken there by an older woman who could not continue to care for her b/c her family was moving her into a nursing home. When I went to pick up Tinker to take her home, she was very reserved. I wasn't positive that she was a good match, but now, she will not leave my side. She's the most loyal, eager to please, happy little doggy I know. She was older too (7), but I cannot express how awesome our choice to adopt an older dog has been.
posted by Kronur at 3:52 AM on July 27, 2013
It is IMHO a greater good to home the mature dog who has been there for two years than it is to home the puppy they'll have no issues finding a new owner
This, and:
house training a puppy is an every two-hours, months long endeavour due to bladder size.
I would love to have a puppy, but my husband and I both work outside the home, and one of us can only get to the house at lunchtime. It would be cruel to think a puppy could handle that (or another similarly busy schedule). Never mind adding in a toddler to the mix.
And anecdotally, we adopted our dog from a shelter. She was taken there by an older woman who could not continue to care for her b/c her family was moving her into a nursing home. When I went to pick up Tinker to take her home, she was very reserved. I wasn't positive that she was a good match, but now, she will not leave my side. She's the most loyal, eager to please, happy little doggy I know. She was older too (7), but I cannot express how awesome our choice to adopt an older dog has been.
posted by Kronur at 3:52 AM on July 27, 2013
If I were a single person or coupled without kids, I'd take the older dog for all the "greater good" arguments above. But since you have a toddler, I'd go with the puppy. You're in the world of poop and toilet training anyway, there's always someone home at your place right now, and the pup and kid can grow up together. You stand a much greater chance of getting 10-15 years with the dog when you start with a puppy.
The puppy is also less likely to have had a lurking traumatic incident surface. I know it doesn't happen often; I've known a lot of wonderful dogs adopted as adults from shelters. But I've also encountered one who went from a sweet little mush to a snarling cujo whenever she was in a car that was being fueled at a gas station. The thought of a toddler buckled into a car seat next to that dog is terrifying. A 4 year old dog who's been "in the system" for two years is sadly more likely to have triggers like that, and since you have another good option, I'd take it.
posted by apparently at 4:34 AM on July 27, 2013
The puppy is also less likely to have had a lurking traumatic incident surface. I know it doesn't happen often; I've known a lot of wonderful dogs adopted as adults from shelters. But I've also encountered one who went from a sweet little mush to a snarling cujo whenever she was in a car that was being fueled at a gas station. The thought of a toddler buckled into a car seat next to that dog is terrifying. A 4 year old dog who's been "in the system" for two years is sadly more likely to have triggers like that, and since you have another good option, I'd take it.
posted by apparently at 4:34 AM on July 27, 2013
Wow, lot of weird "dog will kill your kid/pet " responses here.... I'm absolutely with darlingbri and others. All things being equal with the 2 choices, then try to serve the world a little. Take the 4 year old. Congrats and good luck!
posted by chasles at 4:35 AM on July 27, 2013
posted by chasles at 4:35 AM on July 27, 2013
My instinct is that the older dog is going to be a better fit for your family, but I'll leave others to address that more expertly.
What I really came in to say, though, is that you should probably not adopt two puppies. My in-laws did this last year, and guess what? My husband and I now have a dog. I'll give you one guess where it came from. We love our little Bandit dearly and couldn't be happier that things worked out this way, but it was not the plan, and if we hadn't been willing and able to take her, my in-laws would still have needed to re-home one of the two pups.
(After adopting the pair, my mother-in-law started doing research on training and found that the general wisdom about adopting two puppies at once is "don't." One of the things she read essentially said, "If you're stupid enough to have done this..." We all had a good laugh about that one for a while. But my point is that it's not just as simple as having one extra around. You really do need to train them separately—and one puppy is already quite enough work. You also run the risk of their not getting along, as happened with this pair after they were spayed, for whatever reason.)
Good luck!
posted by cellar door at 5:10 AM on July 27, 2013
What I really came in to say, though, is that you should probably not adopt two puppies. My in-laws did this last year, and guess what? My husband and I now have a dog. I'll give you one guess where it came from. We love our little Bandit dearly and couldn't be happier that things worked out this way, but it was not the plan, and if we hadn't been willing and able to take her, my in-laws would still have needed to re-home one of the two pups.
(After adopting the pair, my mother-in-law started doing research on training and found that the general wisdom about adopting two puppies at once is "don't." One of the things she read essentially said, "If you're stupid enough to have done this..." We all had a good laugh about that one for a while. But my point is that it's not just as simple as having one extra around. You really do need to train them separately—and one puppy is already quite enough work. You also run the risk of their not getting along, as happened with this pair after they were spayed, for whatever reason.)
Good luck!
posted by cellar door at 5:10 AM on July 27, 2013
My vote is for the older dog. I have to think that a dog who's been at a shelter for the last 2 years of his life is one that isn't going to immediately fall in love with every family who looks at him. Given that he's affectionate (and not aloof, I'm assuming) with the staff people he knows, odds are very good that once he's been with you for a while - maybe a few weeks, maybe a few months - and knows he's really home, he will be just as affectionate with you and your family.
Good luck either way (and I hope you post pictures once you've made your decision!). It sounds like you really can't go wrong with either of these options.
posted by DingoMutt at 5:21 AM on July 27, 2013
Good luck either way (and I hope you post pictures once you've made your decision!). It sounds like you really can't go wrong with either of these options.
posted by DingoMutt at 5:21 AM on July 27, 2013
I vote for the 4 year old. I find that adopting older pets gives you more "known quantities." And already being good with your toddler is excellent.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 6:04 AM on July 27, 2013
posted by Ms Vegetable at 6:04 AM on July 27, 2013
I have been in this situation and the older dog did not work for us. It bit my child in the face. Despite doing EVERYTHING right - really, truly vetting the situation, the dog had been around kids before, etc. Dogs can be unpredictable, and toddlers are super unpredictable. I respectfully disagree on the above posters saying you should take the 4 year old for the greater good. I understand the sentiment, but when you have a young child in the home, the dynamic changes considerably. It would be worse for the dog to have a bite record and be returned (our above dog lives with my inlaws, so happy ending there). Older couples, childless couples, those are great homes for dogs who have been in shelters half their lives. Heck, if he's such a favorite, a volunteer may end up taking him home. Why haven't they?
In the end, we did get a puppy, despite our many previous older dog rescues. Shelters really only wanted to give us a puppy because of the kids, anyway (I didn't expect that going in). It worked out because the puppy grew up with the cats, and the kids, was trained, and I trust him implicitly. I dreaded, DREADED, toilet training the dog, but they grow up VERY quickly and it was a blip on the radar. And we have two kids, who were 3 and 1 when we got the pup. The kids are now old enough to help with the dog (letting him in/out of the house, feeding him, etc).
posted by kpht at 6:06 AM on July 27, 2013
In the end, we did get a puppy, despite our many previous older dog rescues. Shelters really only wanted to give us a puppy because of the kids, anyway (I didn't expect that going in). It worked out because the puppy grew up with the cats, and the kids, was trained, and I trust him implicitly. I dreaded, DREADED, toilet training the dog, but they grow up VERY quickly and it was a blip on the radar. And we have two kids, who were 3 and 1 when we got the pup. The kids are now old enough to help with the dog (letting him in/out of the house, feeding him, etc).
posted by kpht at 6:06 AM on July 27, 2013
We've adopted many dogs and my wife is a trained behaviourist who's worked in many animal shelters doing assessments. We have always had small children around the dogs.
We always take puppies if we can. It is FAR easier to train an unwanted behaviour out of a puppy than a 4 yr old dog, and you are not faced with a black hole of experiences that could trigger undesirable or dangerous behaviours out of the blue.
House training puppies is no big deal if you do it right, especially if you have another dog who is already house trained.
posted by unSane at 6:37 AM on July 27, 2013
We always take puppies if we can. It is FAR easier to train an unwanted behaviour out of a puppy than a 4 yr old dog, and you are not faced with a black hole of experiences that could trigger undesirable or dangerous behaviours out of the blue.
House training puppies is no big deal if you do it right, especially if you have another dog who is already house trained.
posted by unSane at 6:37 AM on July 27, 2013
A toddler and a puppy? You are nuts to consider that. I've done it before and it only takes a few times of your child crawling through a puddle of pee or a poop pile, having the pup over enthusiastically knock your kid off its feet or into the furniture for a bloody nose, or having your kid nipped in the face because it screamed near the pup or pulled the pups ear or stuck a crayon in its nose, before you are kicking yourself in the butt with deep regret for the next year while your puppy grows up.
I also wouldn't go with the older dog, you don't want to take chances with your child and an unknown older dog. Someone mentioned submissive dogs reacting unpredictably when provoked and this is absolutely correct.
In this situation, your best bet is to do some breed specific research and either wait until your child is older and get a puppy or adopt a dog between 9 months-2 years that has come from a family with young kids already.
I brought home an 18 month old pug/Boston mix I found on Kijiji who had been in a home with kids the same age as mine, but who's family regrettably couldn't keep him due to a divorce. He's awesome and seamlessly transitioned from their family pet to our family pet. Look for a dog like that.
posted by tenaciousmoon at 7:34 AM on July 27, 2013
I also wouldn't go with the older dog, you don't want to take chances with your child and an unknown older dog. Someone mentioned submissive dogs reacting unpredictably when provoked and this is absolutely correct.
In this situation, your best bet is to do some breed specific research and either wait until your child is older and get a puppy or adopt a dog between 9 months-2 years that has come from a family with young kids already.
I brought home an 18 month old pug/Boston mix I found on Kijiji who had been in a home with kids the same age as mine, but who's family regrettably couldn't keep him due to a divorce. He's awesome and seamlessly transitioned from their family pet to our family pet. Look for a dog like that.
posted by tenaciousmoon at 7:34 AM on July 27, 2013
I'd recommend the older dog, but with one big reservation.
Why has he been in the shelter for two years?
That's a really long time. A long enough time that it's not about being an adult dog rather than a puppy, or "black dog syndrome", or something else innocuous you can blame on clueless sheeple who don't understand how awesome this dog is.
FWIW I agree that adopting an older dog might be more of a known quantity, and that the dog would probably perk up at home. I have a three year old shelter dog, myself, and don't find training away unwanted behaviors to be that difficult.
But I'm just left with that lingering thought of why this dog has been in a shelter for half its life.
posted by Sara C. at 7:37 AM on July 27, 2013
Why has he been in the shelter for two years?
That's a really long time. A long enough time that it's not about being an adult dog rather than a puppy, or "black dog syndrome", or something else innocuous you can blame on clueless sheeple who don't understand how awesome this dog is.
FWIW I agree that adopting an older dog might be more of a known quantity, and that the dog would probably perk up at home. I have a three year old shelter dog, myself, and don't find training away unwanted behaviors to be that difficult.
But I'm just left with that lingering thought of why this dog has been in a shelter for half its life.
posted by Sara C. at 7:37 AM on July 27, 2013
Ask how the dogs each behave in the evenings after long and busy days. Find out how you can introduce your cat to each dog before you take them home. Be there at feed time and go and take food away from each dog, if not outright get in the way of the dog and their food bowl.
You want to place each dog in a situation where they are weakened and they have to show that they retain their obedience. Some days, my dog gets cranky in the evening. This is somewhat okay for me to deal with, but is absolutely unacceptable for navigating with a toddler. On days like that, my dog is on the opposite side of the fence as my toddler and preschooler. Likewise, any of my children can walk up to my dog stand in the way of his food bowl, or even take a treat from his mouth and their isn't even a tiny response.
Toddlers don't understand their personal safety. Make sure you know how the dog will react to toddler torment - otherwise, throw a half dozen steak knives on the floor, unlock your medicine cabinet, and let your toddler play with the stove. A dog that is aggressive in situations where they are used to being in control can be dangerous and best to understand before building an emotional connection.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:22 AM on July 27, 2013
You want to place each dog in a situation where they are weakened and they have to show that they retain their obedience. Some days, my dog gets cranky in the evening. This is somewhat okay for me to deal with, but is absolutely unacceptable for navigating with a toddler. On days like that, my dog is on the opposite side of the fence as my toddler and preschooler. Likewise, any of my children can walk up to my dog stand in the way of his food bowl, or even take a treat from his mouth and their isn't even a tiny response.
Toddlers don't understand their personal safety. Make sure you know how the dog will react to toddler torment - otherwise, throw a half dozen steak knives on the floor, unlock your medicine cabinet, and let your toddler play with the stove. A dog that is aggressive in situations where they are used to being in control can be dangerous and best to understand before building an emotional connection.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:22 AM on July 27, 2013
I'd get the older dog and here's why: someone will get the puppy. Puppies are popular, they don't stick around shelters for long. A four-year-old who's been at the shelter for two years, that makes me sad, even if the staff love him and he loves them. If it's all the same to you on paper, pick the dog who needs you most.
posted by mibo at 8:57 AM on July 27, 2013
posted by mibo at 8:57 AM on July 27, 2013
Another vote for the older dog.
I can't speak to which dog is likely to be best with a toddler, but I can speak a little (at least offer an anecdote) regarding the eye contact. We rescued an older dog (8-10 years old at the time) several years ago who wouldn't make any eye contact with us. It was really just a sign of initial timidity and the fact that it was going to take him a bit to trust us. Once he felt comfortable with us (it took him a few weeks to settle in, but from the sounds of it the dog you're considering might very well assimilate even faster), he started making eye contact and his whole personality opened up -- and he was a very sweet, gentle, funny little guy.
posted by scody at 9:37 AM on July 27, 2013
I can't speak to which dog is likely to be best with a toddler, but I can speak a little (at least offer an anecdote) regarding the eye contact. We rescued an older dog (8-10 years old at the time) several years ago who wouldn't make any eye contact with us. It was really just a sign of initial timidity and the fact that it was going to take him a bit to trust us. Once he felt comfortable with us (it took him a few weeks to settle in, but from the sounds of it the dog you're considering might very well assimilate even faster), he started making eye contact and his whole personality opened up -- and he was a very sweet, gentle, funny little guy.
posted by scody at 9:37 AM on July 27, 2013
I would get neither of the dogs. The puppy, clearly no because it sounds like it will be lot of work. And I would not get the older dog because after 2 years in the shelter he's still not potty trained. That alone is surely why no one has adopted him, I would worry that he has some issue that means he will never be fully potty trained. It is so hard to love and care for an animal with behavioral issues.
posted by florencetnoa at 9:37 AM on July 27, 2013
posted by florencetnoa at 9:37 AM on July 27, 2013
I adopted an older(@ 7) dog when my son was @ 6. There were often lots of kids of varying ages around, and the dog was always incredibly well behaved. We had a cat, and she was quite able to defend herself, though she never got over being annoyed about the dog in the house. She felt the same way when I had the child, so, whatever. He was not fully house-trained, picked it up in a month or so. With busy lives including a toddler, house-training puppies would be a pain. I'm biased, as my current dog was @ 1 year old when I adopted him, and he's a great dog.
4 year old medium-sized dog Pros: leash-trained, socialized, good manners, known history, not aggressive, nice size, grown dogs are much harder to place so he gets a home, likely to come out of his shell once he's with the family for a bit.
Cons: not fully house-trained
The less aggressive puppy Pros: puppies are cute, okay with rabbits, will probably adapt to cat who's used to dogs.
Cons: needs all sorts of training, puppy care, will need neutering, time-consuming
2 puppies Pros: puppies are cute, okay with rabbits, will probably adapt to cat who's used to dogs, you sound like you enjoy having more than 1 dog
Cons: what are you, crazy? I'd hate having puppy poop in a home with a toddler. needs all sorts of training, puppy care, will need neutering, doubly time-consuming
I would probably get the older dog, depending on breed and intelligence. Golden retriever, collie, or poodle mixes would sway my opinion. With kids who like to throw a ball, a breed that likes to fetch is fun. Beagle or other hounds, or aggressive breeds or breeds that cause significant harm if they attack, would dissuade me.
posted by theora55 at 9:50 AM on July 27, 2013
4 year old medium-sized dog Pros: leash-trained, socialized, good manners, known history, not aggressive, nice size, grown dogs are much harder to place so he gets a home, likely to come out of his shell once he's with the family for a bit.
Cons: not fully house-trained
The less aggressive puppy Pros: puppies are cute, okay with rabbits, will probably adapt to cat who's used to dogs.
Cons: needs all sorts of training, puppy care, will need neutering, time-consuming
2 puppies Pros: puppies are cute, okay with rabbits, will probably adapt to cat who's used to dogs, you sound like you enjoy having more than 1 dog
Cons: what are you, crazy? I'd hate having puppy poop in a home with a toddler. needs all sorts of training, puppy care, will need neutering, doubly time-consuming
I would probably get the older dog, depending on breed and intelligence. Golden retriever, collie, or poodle mixes would sway my opinion. With kids who like to throw a ball, a breed that likes to fetch is fun. Beagle or other hounds, or aggressive breeds or breeds that cause significant harm if they attack, would dissuade me.
posted by theora55 at 9:50 AM on July 27, 2013
My vote would be for the older dog, but you also need to take onto consideration their breeds/mixes to see of they would be a good fit.
posted by Vaike at 11:13 AM on July 27, 2013
posted by Vaike at 11:13 AM on July 27, 2013
Will the shelter let you foster-to-adopt? If so, I would go with the older dog. It's better for the dog rather than being in the shelter, and you'll have time to get to know the dog then and see how comfortable you feel.
A puppy, even a puppy from a breeder, is absolutely no guarantee against having aggression or other issues as an adolescent or adult.
posted by cairdeas at 11:23 AM on July 27, 2013
A puppy, even a puppy from a breeder, is absolutely no guarantee against having aggression or other issues as an adolescent or adult.
posted by cairdeas at 11:23 AM on July 27, 2013
Knowing the breeds would be somewhat helpful in answering the question.
posted by Dansaman at 11:29 AM on July 27, 2013
posted by Dansaman at 11:29 AM on July 27, 2013
The breed would make a difference to me, particularly with a toddler. I have known more than a dozen wonderful pit bulls, but I would not get one with a toddler. I have not known very many wonderful rottweilers or chows, and I would not get one of those with or without a toddler. I expect lots of contrary opinions to the above, but can only speak from my own experience and several years volunteering in shelters.
But I would suggest an older dog even if it's not this dog, for one reason or another. And of course a toddler should never be left unsupervised with a dog. ANY dog. I am very sorry to hear the difficult stories from this thread, but the OP clearly has lots of dog experience and knows the risks.
Heck, if he's such a favorite, a volunteer may end up taking him home. Why haven't they?
I have to respond to this as well, because it is a horrible thing to say. I still think about a pit/boxer mix called Gypsy, a pit called Jenny whose pups were all adopted but she was not, and a dozen others who deserved a happy life I was in no position to provide at the time. Please don't make assumptions about why a dog is still at the shelter.
posted by Glinn at 11:59 AM on July 27, 2013
But I would suggest an older dog even if it's not this dog, for one reason or another. And of course a toddler should never be left unsupervised with a dog. ANY dog. I am very sorry to hear the difficult stories from this thread, but the OP clearly has lots of dog experience and knows the risks.
Heck, if he's such a favorite, a volunteer may end up taking him home. Why haven't they?
I have to respond to this as well, because it is a horrible thing to say. I still think about a pit/boxer mix called Gypsy, a pit called Jenny whose pups were all adopted but she was not, and a dozen others who deserved a happy life I was in no position to provide at the time. Please don't make assumptions about why a dog is still at the shelter.
posted by Glinn at 11:59 AM on July 27, 2013
Heck, if he's such a favorite, a volunteer may end up taking him home. Why haven't they?
May I answer this for the OP?
The San Francisco ACC (public kill shelter) takes in close to 10,000 animals per year. Say just 1% of those animals are "favorites." That requires the shelter to have at least 100 volunteers, and for every volunteer to adopt an animal this year. Next year, there will ALSO need to be 100 volunteers, and each of them will need to adopt an animal that year too.
In shelters, there are so many favorites. That's because shelters overflowing with wonderful dogs. The percentage of dogs who could be described as wonderful far outweighs dogs that could be described as anything else.
And you will find, in an animal shelter, so many of the volunteers and employees DO adopt. Some of them have 3, 4, 5 dogs. Way more than the "average" person. So many of them do everything they possibly can. They just do not have enough resources to take them all home.
So OP, please don't think that just because an animal is a shelter favorite, yet continues to sit in the shelter, there must be something wrong with the animal because no volunteer has taken him or her home. There are countless "favorites" who get the needle, and that causes extreme amounts of grief among many of the humans. They just can't save them all alone.
posted by cairdeas at 12:42 PM on July 27, 2013
May I answer this for the OP?
The San Francisco ACC (public kill shelter) takes in close to 10,000 animals per year. Say just 1% of those animals are "favorites." That requires the shelter to have at least 100 volunteers, and for every volunteer to adopt an animal this year. Next year, there will ALSO need to be 100 volunteers, and each of them will need to adopt an animal that year too.
In shelters, there are so many favorites. That's because shelters overflowing with wonderful dogs. The percentage of dogs who could be described as wonderful far outweighs dogs that could be described as anything else.
And you will find, in an animal shelter, so many of the volunteers and employees DO adopt. Some of them have 3, 4, 5 dogs. Way more than the "average" person. So many of them do everything they possibly can. They just do not have enough resources to take them all home.
So OP, please don't think that just because an animal is a shelter favorite, yet continues to sit in the shelter, there must be something wrong with the animal because no volunteer has taken him or her home. There are countless "favorites" who get the needle, and that causes extreme amounts of grief among many of the humans. They just can't save them all alone.
posted by cairdeas at 12:42 PM on July 27, 2013
I adopted two older dogs. The first of the two didn't seem at all interested in me when I went to meet her. I talked to the rescue volunteers and they assured me that she would be a good fit for my lifestyle. They were able to talk about her personality with me. I took a chance on her despite the lack of interest in me when we first met. She has turned out to be an incredibly loving dog! She just needed to get to know me and that I was her person before she was interested.
posted by parakeetdog at 12:51 PM on July 27, 2013
posted by parakeetdog at 12:51 PM on July 27, 2013
He s clearly a favorite with the staff and affectionate to them, but he was pretty reserved with us. I walked him and he didn't pull and he also didn't flinch from being petted, but he didn't want to make eye contact. He was good with the toddler, even with food around (adults supervising closely of course), and he is apparently a very laid back and beta dog, preferring to avoid fights or confrontation with other dogs.
These are good signs. My childhood dog Bandit was an adult dog who stayed at the shelter for years and became best bros with the staff (the only reason he wasn't euthanized was because he was so cute and so friendly to the staff). When my folks went to the shelter to look for a dog, he wasn't really into them. And he was super quiet and shy when we eventually adopted him. But he ended up being just as friendly to us as he was to the staff, and he was a great dog overall. Seriously, he was so in love with my dad that he would stand and wait with his nose pressed to the door whenever my dad was away on a business trip, and jump into his freaking arms when he finally came back.
Think about it as if the dog was a little kid. Little kids are sometimes shy with strangers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're shy with their families.
posted by topoisomerase at 1:37 PM on July 27, 2013
These are good signs. My childhood dog Bandit was an adult dog who stayed at the shelter for years and became best bros with the staff (the only reason he wasn't euthanized was because he was so cute and so friendly to the staff). When my folks went to the shelter to look for a dog, he wasn't really into them. And he was super quiet and shy when we eventually adopted him. But he ended up being just as friendly to us as he was to the staff, and he was a great dog overall. Seriously, he was so in love with my dad that he would stand and wait with his nose pressed to the door whenever my dad was away on a business trip, and jump into his freaking arms when he finally came back.
Think about it as if the dog was a little kid. Little kids are sometimes shy with strangers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're shy with their families.
posted by topoisomerase at 1:37 PM on July 27, 2013
IMO, older dogs are best for families without children, or for farms, because you never know what history an older dog has, and what triggers it might react to.
Right now we are finally training the puppy we've dreamed of for years, and I'm amazed at how fast he is learning to deal with all the difficult things - including a two-year old who is staying here for a while. He's almost good with the potty training, after less than a month in a house, and I'd say with you living in an apartment, with small children, that must be a very important requirement.
At the kennel, I chose him because he was the most enthusiastic and people-friendly one in the litter, going against the breeders, who tried to sell me a sweet and shy puppy they loved, and really wanted to have a good home. I figured his enthusiasm would be put to good use when we started puppy training, and I feel I was right - he is so eager to please and to participate, though obviously, I can never know how the other puppy would have responded.
posted by mumimor at 2:54 PM on July 27, 2013
Right now we are finally training the puppy we've dreamed of for years, and I'm amazed at how fast he is learning to deal with all the difficult things - including a two-year old who is staying here for a while. He's almost good with the potty training, after less than a month in a house, and I'd say with you living in an apartment, with small children, that must be a very important requirement.
At the kennel, I chose him because he was the most enthusiastic and people-friendly one in the litter, going against the breeders, who tried to sell me a sweet and shy puppy they loved, and really wanted to have a good home. I figured his enthusiasm would be put to good use when we started puppy training, and I feel I was right - he is so eager to please and to participate, though obviously, I can never know how the other puppy would have responded.
posted by mumimor at 2:54 PM on July 27, 2013
Of course a mature dog is capable of doing damage to any smaller animal, including children and cats. This is why you do not leave a dog and cat alone together for any significant length of time until it has been well established that this will not happen.
And never, NEVER without supervision, for children too young to know Dog Rules: don't tug the tail, don't poke the eyes, don't pounce while asleep, etc. I cannot emphasize this enough. If the two are hanging out together, even if they seem to be the bestest pals in the world, an adult must be nearby and paying attention.
One other thing to note about the adult: adults from shelters take a while to acclimate and show their real selves. The behavior they show at a shelter is not necessarily the true dog, since shelters are scary stressful places and dogs all react to that in different ways. They take a while to trust that this new home is not just another pit-stop, so again they may be more fearful, submissive, etc, than they will be once their trust has been earned and they feel secure in their new home. That process takes time. So the adult dog may have behaviors that you need to untangle and clear out, which can be a long difficult process.
I don't know which dog to advocate here - my heart says the adult, because puppies are very easy to place -- but thought I'd throw in my two cents for you.
posted by cmyk at 3:54 PM on July 27, 2013
And never, NEVER without supervision, for children too young to know Dog Rules: don't tug the tail, don't poke the eyes, don't pounce while asleep, etc. I cannot emphasize this enough. If the two are hanging out together, even if they seem to be the bestest pals in the world, an adult must be nearby and paying attention.
One other thing to note about the adult: adults from shelters take a while to acclimate and show their real selves. The behavior they show at a shelter is not necessarily the true dog, since shelters are scary stressful places and dogs all react to that in different ways. They take a while to trust that this new home is not just another pit-stop, so again they may be more fearful, submissive, etc, than they will be once their trust has been earned and they feel secure in their new home. That process takes time. So the adult dog may have behaviors that you need to untangle and clear out, which can be a long difficult process.
I don't know which dog to advocate here - my heart says the adult, because puppies are very easy to place -- but thought I'd throw in my two cents for you.
posted by cmyk at 3:54 PM on July 27, 2013
As another person who adopted an adult dog, I highly recommend that route, especially if you are busy.
Can you do a foster-to-adopt program through the shelter? I understand the reluctance to commit to an animal who may be too laid-back and reserved with you right now. In two weeks, when the stress hormones from the shelter have worn off, the four year old may be a wonderful dog or a terrible dog (or anything between). Fostering first could help you make up your mind with the guarantee of a take-back if it's not a good fit.
posted by bookdragoness at 9:08 PM on July 27, 2013
Can you do a foster-to-adopt program through the shelter? I understand the reluctance to commit to an animal who may be too laid-back and reserved with you right now. In two weeks, when the stress hormones from the shelter have worn off, the four year old may be a wonderful dog or a terrible dog (or anything between). Fostering first could help you make up your mind with the guarantee of a take-back if it's not a good fit.
posted by bookdragoness at 9:08 PM on July 27, 2013
Op posting with obligatory photograph of Jessie.
We spent another two hours at the shelter today playing and walking with the dogs, and ended up taking the puppy's sister. We will be sponsoring some of the costs of the older dog who is happy and relaxed at the shelter, and it turned out that the other puppy is very likely to be taken permanently by her fosterer now that one of them has been placed.
All these dogs are mongrel mixes, former street dogs. Jessie is a brindle coloured mutt - basically a doggy dingo. I think she's lovely, but she's not cute at all.
The older dog did not warm up to us at all, and was difficult to walk off his usual route - he just sat down and wouldn't move or respond, and my husband was already worried about his size. He would be a great dog with 4-5 months of gentle training, but we weren't sure we could risk spending 4-5 months with a non-potty trained dog that was slow to warm up and according to the shelter staff, didn't respond to food/treats training, rather obeying only if he liked the volunteer.
The puppy I thought was a good match yesterday turned out to be skittish around the toddler when she was on a leash and couldn't move away easily. After a good long run and play though, the more assertive sister was far more mellow and interested in people. She was paper trained by her fosterer, so we'll see.
Jessie (Tzh-tzhu something in chinese originally that I can't pronounce, so she is being renamed as closely as possible) is the calmest dog I have ever met. Our cat is not as delighted but Jessie at four months can sit, give her paw, lets us take her food bowl away during meals, knows fetch, and basically just wants to be next to someone to cuddle quietly.
I have done the rehab of a difficult-to-place shelter dog, taken in difficult-to-home older cats etc, rescued strays, etc and this dog was the best choice for our family. I am very grateful that Darwin is so clearly happy and well taken care of that we could chose on what fit us best this time.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:22 AM on July 28, 2013
We spent another two hours at the shelter today playing and walking with the dogs, and ended up taking the puppy's sister. We will be sponsoring some of the costs of the older dog who is happy and relaxed at the shelter, and it turned out that the other puppy is very likely to be taken permanently by her fosterer now that one of them has been placed.
All these dogs are mongrel mixes, former street dogs. Jessie is a brindle coloured mutt - basically a doggy dingo. I think she's lovely, but she's not cute at all.
The older dog did not warm up to us at all, and was difficult to walk off his usual route - he just sat down and wouldn't move or respond, and my husband was already worried about his size. He would be a great dog with 4-5 months of gentle training, but we weren't sure we could risk spending 4-5 months with a non-potty trained dog that was slow to warm up and according to the shelter staff, didn't respond to food/treats training, rather obeying only if he liked the volunteer.
The puppy I thought was a good match yesterday turned out to be skittish around the toddler when she was on a leash and couldn't move away easily. After a good long run and play though, the more assertive sister was far more mellow and interested in people. She was paper trained by her fosterer, so we'll see.
Jessie (Tzh-tzhu something in chinese originally that I can't pronounce, so she is being renamed as closely as possible) is the calmest dog I have ever met. Our cat is not as delighted but Jessie at four months can sit, give her paw, lets us take her food bowl away during meals, knows fetch, and basically just wants to be next to someone to cuddle quietly.
I have done the rehab of a difficult-to-place shelter dog, taken in difficult-to-home older cats etc, rescued strays, etc and this dog was the best choice for our family. I am very grateful that Darwin is so clearly happy and well taken care of that we could chose on what fit us best this time.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:22 AM on July 28, 2013
PUPPY!!!!!! Cute PUPPY!!!!
Congratulations on your new family member! I'm glad you were able to adopt the pet that is right for you. :-)
posted by Ms Vegetable at 6:29 AM on July 28, 2013
Congratulations on your new family member! I'm glad you were able to adopt the pet that is right for you. :-)
posted by Ms Vegetable at 6:29 AM on July 28, 2013
I marked the most helpful answers to our decision, but all the comments were good!
Also to address some notes: purebreed dogs in shelters here usually get snapped up immediately because only certain breeds are allowed in some housing. Mongrel/mixed dogs, even puppies, sit in shelters here for a long time. This shelter does do foster-to-adopt, but I know that I would bond too fast, even with a difficult dog and we wanted to avoid that trauma.
The shelters here that we visited don't do paper training - the dogs are in big kennels and get walked, but they don't have the staff or volunteers for proper training. Some places use fosterers to give the dogs a better chance. Darwin not being potty trained wasn't a sign of a problem with him at all, and I think with the right owner bonded to him, he would get the hang of it pretty fast.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:35 AM on July 28, 2013
Also to address some notes: purebreed dogs in shelters here usually get snapped up immediately because only certain breeds are allowed in some housing. Mongrel/mixed dogs, even puppies, sit in shelters here for a long time. This shelter does do foster-to-adopt, but I know that I would bond too fast, even with a difficult dog and we wanted to avoid that trauma.
The shelters here that we visited don't do paper training - the dogs are in big kennels and get walked, but they don't have the staff or volunteers for proper training. Some places use fosterers to give the dogs a better chance. Darwin not being potty trained wasn't a sign of a problem with him at all, and I think with the right owner bonded to him, he would get the hang of it pretty fast.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:35 AM on July 28, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
What breed or mix are the puppies?
Even with a park next door, your lifestyle (busy) does not sound suited to canine ownership at the moment.
Two months ago my friend's mid sized rescue attacked her other dog and sent it to the hospital. These dogs have lived together for 5 years with no prior incident.
Sure it usually works out fine, but I would not bring ANY unknown animal into my home right now, we're waiting for our toddler to get a bit older to add any new pets of any species.
Think it through fully. Don't do this right now.
posted by jbenben at 2:08 AM on July 27, 2013