GoT/Red Wedding question (SPOILERS)
June 6, 2013 1:02 PM Subscribe
Two Game of Thrones questions re: Roose Bolton. (SPOILERS for viewers who haven't yet watched this season; would like to AVOID SPOILERS regarding events that happen in the books beyond the Red Wedding)
I am a GoT viewer but not a GoT reader. I am mainly interested in ascertaining if these particular points are ambiguous or unambiguous at the point where the Red Wedding happens in A Storm of Swords.
1) When Jaime leaves Harrenhal (ep. 7), he tells Bolton to send the Lannisters' regards to Robb when Bolton attends Edmure's wedding. So when Bolton stabs Robb and says "the Lannisters send their regards," is this just a little ironic callback to that? Or are we meant to infer that Bolton indeed let Jaime in on Tywin's plan while Jaime was at Harrenhal?
In other words, when he gives Brienne his word that he'll try to deliver Arya and Sansa back to their mother (as he's leaving Harrenhal but before he returns for her), does he already know that Catelyn's going to be dead soon?
2) I take the Flayed Man sigil as a signal that Theon's being tortured at Bolton's behest. Is it only hinted at in the book at this point as well, or is it made clear?
Again, I would like to restrict this to what information is available to readers only through the Red Wedding chapter in the book. (I realize that it's possible that the books' events may take place in a different sequence or with some different characters -- for example, I'm aware that Robb's wife isn't actually present at the Red Wedding in the book -- so that answering what goes on in the books might be a more complex issue. It's fine if that's the case, as long as you think you can explain it without spoiling future events.)
Thanks!
I am a GoT viewer but not a GoT reader. I am mainly interested in ascertaining if these particular points are ambiguous or unambiguous at the point where the Red Wedding happens in A Storm of Swords.
1) When Jaime leaves Harrenhal (ep. 7), he tells Bolton to send the Lannisters' regards to Robb when Bolton attends Edmure's wedding. So when Bolton stabs Robb and says "the Lannisters send their regards," is this just a little ironic callback to that? Or are we meant to infer that Bolton indeed let Jaime in on Tywin's plan while Jaime was at Harrenhal?
In other words, when he gives Brienne his word that he'll try to deliver Arya and Sansa back to their mother (as he's leaving Harrenhal but before he returns for her), does he already know that Catelyn's going to be dead soon?
2) I take the Flayed Man sigil as a signal that Theon's being tortured at Bolton's behest. Is it only hinted at in the book at this point as well, or is it made clear?
Again, I would like to restrict this to what information is available to readers only through the Red Wedding chapter in the book. (I realize that it's possible that the books' events may take place in a different sequence or with some different characters -- for example, I'm aware that Robb's wife isn't actually present at the Red Wedding in the book -- so that answering what goes on in the books might be a more complex issue. It's fine if that's the case, as long as you think you can explain it without spoiling future events.)
Thanks!
You may safely assume that Theon is in a hell of a lot of trouble.
posted by Elly Vortex at 1:13 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Elly Vortex at 1:13 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I can speak to point 1.
In the books, Bolton doesn't say "The Lannisters send their regards." He actually says "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." However, there is no evidence that Jaime knew anything about Bolton's plans in advance. You can probably predict how well that line of defense would fly with anyone who heard Bolton speak, though.
posted by Justinian at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
In the books, Bolton doesn't say "The Lannisters send their regards." He actually says "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." However, there is no evidence that Jaime knew anything about Bolton's plans in advance. You can probably predict how well that line of defense would fly with anyone who heard Bolton speak, though.
posted by Justinian at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Alas, poor Theon; I know he was untrustworthy but he doesn't deserve this, Horatio. (We can't even watch the Theon torture-porn scenes at this point.)
And thanks for the confirmation re: Jaime. I keep feeling I should be skeptical of his evolution from villain into tortured soul, so am glad to know that he wasn't at least lying to Brienne's face.
posted by scody at 1:20 PM on June 6, 2013
And thanks for the confirmation re: Jaime. I keep feeling I should be skeptical of his evolution from villain into tortured soul, so am glad to know that he wasn't at least lying to Brienne's face.
posted by scody at 1:20 PM on June 6, 2013
I agree that I can't see Roose Bolton giving away a secret plan like that willy-nilly, and I think the lack of honor in the plan would outrage Jaime had he known.
I think the show just added the line "The Lannisters send their regards" to make it clear who was behind the plan, for people that missed the hint of the band playing "Rains of Castamere."
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:21 PM on June 6, 2013
I think the show just added the line "The Lannisters send their regards" to make it clear who was behind the plan, for people that missed the hint of the band playing "Rains of Castamere."
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:21 PM on June 6, 2013
None of the Theon torture stuff is in Storm of Swords at all. All of those scenes are from book 5, way way after the Red Wedding as measured in pure number of pages. In the book, I believe the reader knows it's a Bolton doing the torturing long before you even know who's getting tortured, which is a big mystery/reveal that wouldn't have worked on film.
posted by theodolite at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
If #1 was intended in the books, then I missed it. My impression was that Jaime left Harrenhall not knowing of Frey's planned treachery, only that Bolton was allied with the Freys.
None of the Theon torture stuff is in Storm of Swords at all.
I was about to post the same thing, but I just looked it up on the Wiki (spoilers!) and apparantly Theon's fate is discussed in detail just prior to the fateful chapter. I must have blanked it out.
posted by muddgirl at 1:24 PM on June 6, 2013
None of the Theon torture stuff is in Storm of Swords at all.
I was about to post the same thing, but I just looked it up on the Wiki (spoilers!) and apparantly Theon's fate is discussed in detail just prior to the fateful chapter. I must have blanked it out.
posted by muddgirl at 1:24 PM on June 6, 2013
But, in the books, I don't think it's clear that Roose is behind the Theon torture, merely that it's a Bolton of some flavor.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2013
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2013
Just a little further clarification on point 1: in the books, it doesn't explicitly say that Bolton is the one that stabs Robb last and says the line. Technically it says, "A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood", but we infer that it's Bolton from the pink sigil of the flayed man.
posted by bluecore at 1:28 PM on June 6, 2013
posted by bluecore at 1:28 PM on June 6, 2013
Best answer: 1. Jaime didn't know the plans for the Red Wedding, but one could argue that he did know Bolton was trying to ally with the Lannisters. Here's the part about Jaime sending his regards:
Bolton: "You will give my warm regards to your father?"
Jaime: "So long as you give mine to Robb Stark."
2. Theon is mentioned briefly in Storm of Swords, but the scenes are described in book 5. Before the Red Wedding we learn that Theon is captured and being tortured when some of Theon's skin is presented to Catelyn. We also learn who is torturing him.
posted by trueluk at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Bolton: "You will give my warm regards to your father?"
Jaime: "So long as you give mine to Robb Stark."
2. Theon is mentioned briefly in Storm of Swords, but the scenes are described in book 5. Before the Red Wedding we learn that Theon is captured and being tortured when some of Theon's skin is presented to Catelyn. We also learn who is torturing him.
posted by trueluk at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
Remember, people, scody does not want any spoilers that take place after the Red Wedding in the books.
posted by mlis at 1:31 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mlis at 1:31 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
I haven't read the books, so this is just newbie speculation regarding point 1:
It would be reasonable for Jamie to ask Bolton to "give his regards" to Robb even without knowing of the plot beforehand. Jamie meant it to be kind of a sarcastic jab though -- not an actual jab, with a knife, in the baby.
So, I think Roose was just riffing on his own groove when he made what we see as a callback. I'm looking forward to more Roose Bolton Goes Rogue in the episodes to come.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND....
am glad to know that he wasn't at least lying to Brienne's face.
Jamie's precise words to Brienne were: "I will return the Stark girls to their mother."
Who's to say that he doesn't just intend to kill them (besides those of us who believe in his redemption arc, I guess)?
posted by sparklemotion at 1:41 PM on June 6, 2013
It would be reasonable for Jamie to ask Bolton to "give his regards" to Robb even without knowing of the plot beforehand. Jamie meant it to be kind of a sarcastic jab though -- not an actual jab, with a knife, in the baby.
So, I think Roose was just riffing on his own groove when he made what we see as a callback. I'm looking forward to more Roose Bolton Goes Rogue in the episodes to come.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND....
am glad to know that he wasn't at least lying to Brienne's face.
Jamie's precise words to Brienne were: "I will return the Stark girls to their mother."
Who's to say that he doesn't just intend to kill them (besides those of us who believe in his redemption arc, I guess)?
posted by sparklemotion at 1:41 PM on June 6, 2013
Response by poster: Since some of the events take place in a different order in the TV series vs. the books, I'm OK with discussing (in broad terms) what's happening to Theon, since the info seems to be loaded into the books so much later than they've loaded it into the series. (Also, since my boyfriend and I don't even watch those scenes anymore because they're so revolting, I feel pretty uninvested in the storyline at this point except a vague curiosity about the identity of the mysterious torturer -- who I had guessed was a Bolton of some stripe, though obviously he's not Roose himself.)
posted by scody at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2013
posted by scody at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2013
Best answer: In the books, his fate is made explicit, as Roose Bolton hands Robb a chunk of Theon's flayed skin before the Wedding.
"The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy's left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. [Flaying was outlawed in the North by the late Ned Stark, but only in the show canon AFAIK] And yet... what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this... small token of revenge?"
So lots of things are more obvious from this exchange, given that Roose is handing out flayed-skin party favours.
However, it is uncertain if Roose and Ramsay (his bastard) keep Theon alive at this point in the books, as they explicitly discuss BEFORE the Wedding that "Whoever wins the Seastone Chair [King of the Iron Islands, where Theon's family is from] will want Theon Greyjoy dead. Even in chains, he has a better claim than any of his uncles. Hold him, I say, and demand concessions from the ironborn as the price of his execution."
The mystery of Theon Greyjoy's fate lasted 10 years for book readers (ASOS to ADWD).
posted by flibbertigibbet at 1:44 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
"The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy's left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. [Flaying was outlawed in the North by the late Ned Stark, but only in the show canon AFAIK] And yet... what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this... small token of revenge?"
So lots of things are more obvious from this exchange, given that Roose is handing out flayed-skin party favours.
However, it is uncertain if Roose and Ramsay (his bastard) keep Theon alive at this point in the books, as they explicitly discuss BEFORE the Wedding that "Whoever wins the Seastone Chair [King of the Iron Islands, where Theon's family is from] will want Theon Greyjoy dead. Even in chains, he has a better claim than any of his uncles. Hold him, I say, and demand concessions from the ironborn as the price of his execution."
The mystery of Theon Greyjoy's fate lasted 10 years for book readers (ASOS to ADWD).
posted by flibbertigibbet at 1:44 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Also, I don't believe that Catelyn was meant to be killed when considering the plot. So even if Jaime knew about the Red Wedding, he might still imagine the girls could be returned to their mother.
The women of the losing side are incredibly valuable. In their patriarchal society they have no claim to rule, but their marriage would help soothe the anger of the losers. Catelyn would provide legitimacy to whoever claims Riverrun, and Arya/Sansa to Winterfell.
posted by politikitty at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
The women of the losing side are incredibly valuable. In their patriarchal society they have no claim to rule, but their marriage would help soothe the anger of the losers. Catelyn would provide legitimacy to whoever claims Riverrun, and Arya/Sansa to Winterfell.
posted by politikitty at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
That's true, but I think it's important to reiterate that there is no reason to think Jaime knew anything at all about Bolton's plans at the wedding. Any such suspicion would be completely extra-textutal. Or possibly even contra-textual.
posted by Justinian at 5:24 PM on June 6, 2013
posted by Justinian at 5:24 PM on June 6, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by KathrynT at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2013