talking about gender in short term dating relationship
May 4, 2013 9:23 AM Subscribe
Any advice on how to discuss emotionally loaded social issues without pushing buttons?
I met a guy on an online dating site a couple months ago and we've been pretty tight since then. He is mid thirties, I am early 40's, woman. He is moving away from this area at the end of the summer, so we agreed from the outset that we would just have a good summer together.
He is mostly on the same page as I am politically, but there are wide gaps in our social beliefs. Most of these we have filed as "problem we don't need to fix" because he's leaving and this isn't a long term thing. This works spectacularly well for things like hunting, but things like gender dynamics are maybe too close to home for this principle to serve.
I understand that he was raised in an abusive family (his characterization, not mine) and that he has had little contact with anyone who is ethnically dissimilar to himself. His go-to reaction to many things is "white males are victimized by society." Things that have, objectively, nothing to do with race or gender, he sees through this lens. An example: the meme of a diver with a shark, where the caption read something like "here we see the most ruthless predator on Earth, beside it a Great White Shark swims peacefully." He presented this picture to me as evidence of a woman on Facebook "hating white men". It struck me as deeply paranoid and weird, and I explained that it's a comment on humanity being more dangerous to an ecosystem than the predator animals we demonize, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't see it that way and said that "they use the word 'white,'" I thought that was, frankly, batshit insane, since the word "white" is part of the name of the species in the photo. But he has stuck to his interpretation, that the word was used to make "white males" feel bad.
He had a rough day yesterday and last night came over for dinner while he was having what he called anger about an article in the NYT on gender ratios and study habits among undergrads. He had sent me the link earlier, and asked if I'd read it. I said I had and that, while I wasn't super impressed with the article, I didn’t think it was something we should talk about because we likely had strong disagreements. Again, trying to shove this into the "problems we don't need to solve" file. But talk about it we did. He ended up leaving because he said he was too mad to stay.
I feel like we need to find a way of talking about this kind of thing without pushing each others' buttons, but I have no idea what that way might look like.
My feminism includes the idea that patriarchy hurts everyone in society; I am angry about how men are portrayed in cold medicine commercials too. However, I am very uneasy with war of the sexes terminology, and with the idea that men and women are two different kinds of things.
Any ideas or advice on how we could best accomplish a balance of supportiveness and avoidance of topic for the rest of the summer? Anything that has worked for other people in similar close quarters at odds scenarios?
I met a guy on an online dating site a couple months ago and we've been pretty tight since then. He is mid thirties, I am early 40's, woman. He is moving away from this area at the end of the summer, so we agreed from the outset that we would just have a good summer together.
He is mostly on the same page as I am politically, but there are wide gaps in our social beliefs. Most of these we have filed as "problem we don't need to fix" because he's leaving and this isn't a long term thing. This works spectacularly well for things like hunting, but things like gender dynamics are maybe too close to home for this principle to serve.
I understand that he was raised in an abusive family (his characterization, not mine) and that he has had little contact with anyone who is ethnically dissimilar to himself. His go-to reaction to many things is "white males are victimized by society." Things that have, objectively, nothing to do with race or gender, he sees through this lens. An example: the meme of a diver with a shark, where the caption read something like "here we see the most ruthless predator on Earth, beside it a Great White Shark swims peacefully." He presented this picture to me as evidence of a woman on Facebook "hating white men". It struck me as deeply paranoid and weird, and I explained that it's a comment on humanity being more dangerous to an ecosystem than the predator animals we demonize, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't see it that way and said that "they use the word 'white,'" I thought that was, frankly, batshit insane, since the word "white" is part of the name of the species in the photo. But he has stuck to his interpretation, that the word was used to make "white males" feel bad.
He had a rough day yesterday and last night came over for dinner while he was having what he called anger about an article in the NYT on gender ratios and study habits among undergrads. He had sent me the link earlier, and asked if I'd read it. I said I had and that, while I wasn't super impressed with the article, I didn’t think it was something we should talk about because we likely had strong disagreements. Again, trying to shove this into the "problems we don't need to solve" file. But talk about it we did. He ended up leaving because he said he was too mad to stay.
I feel like we need to find a way of talking about this kind of thing without pushing each others' buttons, but I have no idea what that way might look like.
My feminism includes the idea that patriarchy hurts everyone in society; I am angry about how men are portrayed in cold medicine commercials too. However, I am very uneasy with war of the sexes terminology, and with the idea that men and women are two different kinds of things.
Any ideas or advice on how we could best accomplish a balance of supportiveness and avoidance of topic for the rest of the summer? Anything that has worked for other people in similar close quarters at odds scenarios?
If you are both wired such that you're able to spend time diligently avoiding conflict points, then, by all means, DO THAT. There are people who enjoy multi-decade marriages while studiously avoiding a host of topics.
Some people aren't wired that way. They can't help picking the scab.
So it's less an issue of who believes what, and more an issue of which sort of person you both are. If you can both let certain things go and not bring them up, I'd urge you not to sell short the strategy of conversational repression (and I say this as a type 2 scab-picker).
posted by Quisp Lover at 9:33 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Some people aren't wired that way. They can't help picking the scab.
So it's less an issue of who believes what, and more an issue of which sort of person you both are. If you can both let certain things go and not bring them up, I'd urge you not to sell short the strategy of conversational repression (and I say this as a type 2 scab-picker).
posted by Quisp Lover at 9:33 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
he has stuck to his interpretation
He ended up leaving because he said he was too mad to stay
Differing ideological stances are not necessarily a bad thing in themselves. Personally I love a good old heated debate. The problem is when someone can't handle someone else having a different opinion, and that to me seems the issue here. He doesn't seem mature enough to handle an adult conversation about these things which could make sense if he comes from an abusive background, and for various reasons is stuck in a childlike/adolescent state.
IMO your choices are to accept that you either bite your tongue for the next few months around anything contentious and tiptoe around his views, or accept that you have the whole summer to spend looking for someone who is more compatible with you. I'd choose the latter.
posted by billiebee at 9:33 AM on May 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
He ended up leaving because he said he was too mad to stay
Differing ideological stances are not necessarily a bad thing in themselves. Personally I love a good old heated debate. The problem is when someone can't handle someone else having a different opinion, and that to me seems the issue here. He doesn't seem mature enough to handle an adult conversation about these things which could make sense if he comes from an abusive background, and for various reasons is stuck in a childlike/adolescent state.
IMO your choices are to accept that you either bite your tongue for the next few months around anything contentious and tiptoe around his views, or accept that you have the whole summer to spend looking for someone who is more compatible with you. I'd choose the latter.
posted by billiebee at 9:33 AM on May 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
we agreed from the outset that we would just have a good summer together.
Assuming that would follow a good spring together, this looks unlikely. He's already "too mad to stay" and insisting on talking about things you don't want to talk about ... I think you will have a much better summer apart than together.
posted by headnsouth at 9:34 AM on May 4, 2013 [13 favorites]
Assuming that would follow a good spring together, this looks unlikely. He's already "too mad to stay" and insisting on talking about things you don't want to talk about ... I think you will have a much better summer apart than together.
posted by headnsouth at 9:34 AM on May 4, 2013 [13 favorites]
This sounds like an awful way to spend a summer. Already you're posting to MeFi about how you can walk on eggshells without setting off his weird ravings? Bleh.
Look, this stuff is important to him, as evidenced that he sees it everywhere, even in an environmentalist portrait of a shark. He wants to talk about it. He's angry if you disagree. You are always going to disagree. He is never going to be ok with that.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:34 AM on May 4, 2013 [31 favorites]
Look, this stuff is important to him, as evidenced that he sees it everywhere, even in an environmentalist portrait of a shark. He wants to talk about it. He's angry if you disagree. You are always going to disagree. He is never going to be ok with that.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:34 AM on May 4, 2013 [31 favorites]
He seems to want to fight about this; you clearly do not. You have expressed your desire to not do so, which he is ignoring in favour of pushing an agenda. I think your best bet is to not waste any more time on this situation.
posted by elizardbits at 9:35 AM on May 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 9:35 AM on May 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
It sounds like this guy is pretty preoccupied with distorted and ignorant thinking. If he's not able to put his issues aside, then it probably isn't going to be possible for you to have that good summer. I would put it on him to keep these issues out of conversation, assuming you can still stomach being with someone who thinks like that at all. If he keeps doing it, though, and you keep seeing him, your actions are teaching him that it isn't that big of a deal to you.
posted by alphanerd at 9:35 AM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by alphanerd at 9:35 AM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I sort of dated someone like this - I say sort of because I liked other things about him, but the men's rights stuff really rubs me the wrong way so he said a lot of stuff that just left me cold. In my experience with this guy, talking about it did nothing but annoy me and if he couldn't counter something I said he just shut down.
I think you have to look at it as whether or not you can ignore this and enjoy him in other ways because talking about it is most likely going to just give you a headache and/or high blood pressure.
posted by fromageball at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you have to look at it as whether or not you can ignore this and enjoy him in other ways because talking about it is most likely going to just give you a headache and/or high blood pressure.
posted by fromageball at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, you've already had an early warning sign that he can't or won't just avoid certain topics in favor of fun and sexytimes. This does not bode well.
I'd say maybe have one more discussion about hey, let's not talk about topics we have conflict over, we have lots of other thing to talk about and do together, and if he really can't get on board with that, then cut him loose.
posted by rtha at 9:38 AM on May 4, 2013
I'd say maybe have one more discussion about hey, let's not talk about topics we have conflict over, we have lots of other thing to talk about and do together, and if he really can't get on board with that, then cut him loose.
posted by rtha at 9:38 AM on May 4, 2013
This seems like it is way to much effort to be justified as a summer fling. Cut your losses and move on.
posted by thank you silence at 9:54 AM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by thank you silence at 9:54 AM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: His go-to reaction to many things is "white males are victimized by society."
You look at him skeptically, and you say, "No."
And then you change the subject.
More specifically about the examples you mention, you just... change the subject. If he's sending you articles to read about things you know bother him and which you know you disagree with, just... don't engage on that. Remind him that you guys decided to not have political arguments, and that includes this subject.
If it comes up organically, just, "Hm, that's not really how I see the situation/this picture's caption/whatever." And then change the subject.
I have to say, though, the fact that he was SO ANGRY about this random NYT article about undergrad study habits that he needed to come over and have a debate about it (despite previous agreements to take politics off the table), and then he remained SO ANGRY that he had to go home rather than spend a nice evening with you is a red flag for me. I can't explain why -- and god knows I have political stuff that gets in my craw and that I can't be sane about at all. But usually I can retain composure and control my emotions enough to put it away and enjoy myself. His behavior last night sounds really odd to me and not entirely OK.
posted by Sara C. at 9:55 AM on May 4, 2013 [15 favorites]
You look at him skeptically, and you say, "No."
And then you change the subject.
More specifically about the examples you mention, you just... change the subject. If he's sending you articles to read about things you know bother him and which you know you disagree with, just... don't engage on that. Remind him that you guys decided to not have political arguments, and that includes this subject.
If it comes up organically, just, "Hm, that's not really how I see the situation/this picture's caption/whatever." And then change the subject.
I have to say, though, the fact that he was SO ANGRY about this random NYT article about undergrad study habits that he needed to come over and have a debate about it (despite previous agreements to take politics off the table), and then he remained SO ANGRY that he had to go home rather than spend a nice evening with you is a red flag for me. I can't explain why -- and god knows I have political stuff that gets in my craw and that I can't be sane about at all. But usually I can retain composure and control my emotions enough to put it away and enjoy myself. His behavior last night sounds really odd to me and not entirely OK.
posted by Sara C. at 9:55 AM on May 4, 2013 [15 favorites]
I agree that you're best course of action would be to end the relationship. I couldn't put up with that sort of thing for more than one date.
But if you're determined to stay in it, you could just 100% not fight. That is, every time he says something you disagree with, respond with, "Oh, yeah, I see what you're saying." You don't have to agree with him, but you can't disagree with him. (You cannot sound at all sarcastic or dismissive, though. And it should be a true statement, as in, you do see what he's saying, though you may not agree.) It will likely end the arguments, and it'll either get him to calm down pretty quickly and move on, or he'll take it as encouragement and rant even more, which would make me even more angry in about 30 seconds of tongue-biting, but I'm not you.
You've asked him to stop and he hasn't. You can't control him. You can control you.
posted by jaguar at 9:58 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
But if you're determined to stay in it, you could just 100% not fight. That is, every time he says something you disagree with, respond with, "Oh, yeah, I see what you're saying." You don't have to agree with him, but you can't disagree with him. (You cannot sound at all sarcastic or dismissive, though. And it should be a true statement, as in, you do see what he's saying, though you may not agree.) It will likely end the arguments, and it'll either get him to calm down pretty quickly and move on, or he'll take it as encouragement and rant even more, which would make me even more angry in about 30 seconds of tongue-biting, but I'm not you.
You've asked him to stop and he hasn't. You can't control him. You can control you.
posted by jaguar at 9:58 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is the way he wants to see the world - and he's angry about the way the world is. This is really important, because his experience of the world is propped up by these beliefs. He will fight tooth and nail to defend his truth - it makes up a substantial part of Who He Is.
I just got out of a relationship with someone who had a deep underlying belief that "women are only interested in a man's money". Intellectually he could say he knew it wasn't true, but over and over again it kept coming up. Two and half years later, after being in a relationship that completely defied this idea, he seems to recognize this is not true. I didn't argue or discuss his beliefs, but gradually became more vocal about how I saw things and I think he finally, begrudingly admitted to himself that his belief wasn't a universal truth after all - but this was over two years, and it was hard to deal with, and we broke up anyways!
This is sore spot for him, and if this is a short-term thing, I wouldn't even talk about it! Listen to him, make non-committal noises and let him just get it off his chest. You don't have to agree with him, and he doesn't have to know that you disagree. There is no talking about this, there is no helping him understand things differently, no satisfying exchange of ideas. Just let him have his crazy, and understand that feeling like this is really important to him.
Then, when he moves, look for someone who isn't holding on to such rigid and limiting ideas about The Way Things Are.
posted by Locochona at 10:04 AM on May 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
I just got out of a relationship with someone who had a deep underlying belief that "women are only interested in a man's money". Intellectually he could say he knew it wasn't true, but over and over again it kept coming up. Two and half years later, after being in a relationship that completely defied this idea, he seems to recognize this is not true. I didn't argue or discuss his beliefs, but gradually became more vocal about how I saw things and I think he finally, begrudingly admitted to himself that his belief wasn't a universal truth after all - but this was over two years, and it was hard to deal with, and we broke up anyways!
This is sore spot for him, and if this is a short-term thing, I wouldn't even talk about it! Listen to him, make non-committal noises and let him just get it off his chest. You don't have to agree with him, and he doesn't have to know that you disagree. There is no talking about this, there is no helping him understand things differently, no satisfying exchange of ideas. Just let him have his crazy, and understand that feeling like this is really important to him.
Then, when he moves, look for someone who isn't holding on to such rigid and limiting ideas about The Way Things Are.
posted by Locochona at 10:04 AM on May 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Maybe watch movies with him from the other perspective. (E.g. documentaries about women's issues.)
Maybe send him some other articles, that have impacted you.
And when he's being ridiculous (the white shark thing), don't hesitate in calling him out firmly. "Occasionally you do have a point about this, but here you are being ridiculous. You have misinterpreted this to see it from your own bias, when there is actually an obvious other interpretation which the artist intended."
I will dissent with some of the comments that say you should 100% ignore it all. This guy is a human being, and also your sex partner. It's okay to meet him where he is at emotionally and engage, as long as you can find some healthy, productive, mutually-beneficial way to do so.
posted by htid at 10:41 AM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Maybe send him some other articles, that have impacted you.
And when he's being ridiculous (the white shark thing), don't hesitate in calling him out firmly. "Occasionally you do have a point about this, but here you are being ridiculous. You have misinterpreted this to see it from your own bias, when there is actually an obvious other interpretation which the artist intended."
I will dissent with some of the comments that say you should 100% ignore it all. This guy is a human being, and also your sex partner. It's okay to meet him where he is at emotionally and engage, as long as you can find some healthy, productive, mutually-beneficial way to do so.
posted by htid at 10:41 AM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also this other AskMefi might be useful.
Though, if he's really a troll who you can't engage with at all on this, he's not the right sex partner. If you're willing to have a summer's worth of NSA sex, you have other options.
posted by htid at 10:45 AM on May 4, 2013
Though, if he's really a troll who you can't engage with at all on this, he's not the right sex partner. If you're willing to have a summer's worth of NSA sex, you have other options.
posted by htid at 10:45 AM on May 4, 2013
Best answer: I have a friend who occasionally lets on that he's holding onto a lot of fear and resentment about "men's place in the world." I eventually came to understand that this is a feeling, not a sociological analysis. It's the aftermath of his own upbringing and experiences.
When these doubts arise he's feeling scared and lonely and inadequate. What helps is to demonstrate to him that he's loved and valued, regardless of any social and familial roles he is or isn't playing. It also helps me to remind myself that he isn't a bad guy for having these feelings; my own insecurities occasionally pop up in the form of discreditable feelings, too.
Sounds like my friend is a little more sophisticated and self-aware than this guy you've been dating. But I bet the underlying layers are similar.
Also: this may or may not be helpful, but in general, when someone makes a statement I don't agree with, don't want to let pass, but don't want to hash out in detail, my standard response is "That doesn't correspond with my experience." Per jaguar above, you could add something like "...but I hear what you're saying;" if you think even that is compromising your sense of truth, then maybe it's time to walk away.
posted by tangerine at 10:47 AM on May 4, 2013 [13 favorites]
When these doubts arise he's feeling scared and lonely and inadequate. What helps is to demonstrate to him that he's loved and valued, regardless of any social and familial roles he is or isn't playing. It also helps me to remind myself that he isn't a bad guy for having these feelings; my own insecurities occasionally pop up in the form of discreditable feelings, too.
Sounds like my friend is a little more sophisticated and self-aware than this guy you've been dating. But I bet the underlying layers are similar.
Also: this may or may not be helpful, but in general, when someone makes a statement I don't agree with, don't want to let pass, but don't want to hash out in detail, my standard response is "That doesn't correspond with my experience." Per jaguar above, you could add something like "...but I hear what you're saying;" if you think even that is compromising your sense of truth, then maybe it's time to walk away.
posted by tangerine at 10:47 AM on May 4, 2013 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, I think the 'that is nutso, stop seeing him' angle is pretty well-covered, let's stick to offering answers to the actual question of 'what are some helpful strategies if OP does keep seeing him'. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:17 AM on May 4, 2013
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:17 AM on May 4, 2013
Send him this: Louis CK - I Enjoy Being White
posted by rhizome at 11:19 AM on May 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:19 AM on May 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
You value him as a friend, so listen, really stop judging and listen. Ask him what it's like to feel the way he does. Ask him to talk about it, and don't argue. You may learn something about what makes a guy like him think the way he does. And being listened to might help him really hear himself. Maybe you can change his mind a little bit by helping him see the emotional basis for his beliefs, probably not. Maybe being really heard would help him grow a little, and let go of some of his resentment and bitterness. You don't have to agree, that would be a lie. I'm honestly not optimistic. But it would be a genuinely compassionate response.
posted by theora55 at 12:14 PM on May 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 12:14 PM on May 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
He's a blame-the-world loser.
Blame-the-world losers who happen to be white guys always have these views to some greater or lesser extent, because whatever white male privilege is, it's not advertised and in any event they haven't been able to make anything of it, while government, business and social efforts to help women and minorities are very explicitly advertised.
I suppose I'd rather date a blame-the-world loser than a blame-yourself loser (nothing less attractive than self-loathing), but that's a pretty poor set of options.
posted by MattD at 12:34 PM on May 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
Blame-the-world losers who happen to be white guys always have these views to some greater or lesser extent, because whatever white male privilege is, it's not advertised and in any event they haven't been able to make anything of it, while government, business and social efforts to help women and minorities are very explicitly advertised.
I suppose I'd rather date a blame-the-world loser than a blame-yourself loser (nothing less attractive than self-loathing), but that's a pretty poor set of options.
posted by MattD at 12:34 PM on May 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
Best answer: You have a chance, in a safe, time-limited way, to give a lot of help to a man who sounds pretty wounded. If you can give up the idea of a carefree interlude with this man, perhaps you can be the one who helps him learn to face the fears and old pain he carries around. This anger is the way he deals with those old wounds because he is afraid of the pain.
If you can begin to hear the anger as his old pain and fear, I know that very wonderful things can happen in short term relationships with people who are, in many ways, mismatched. I believe the intimacy can be very intense and healing without regard to its expiration date. It gives a person in pain a safe place to talk about old pain and what happened to them. It also gives them a safe place to try new attitudes, to begin to take a chance.
This would take a complete change of your idea of a summer relationship; you might not want to assume the role of 'wise older woman' with this guy. It might even turn you off completely to think of your relationship this way. But if nurturing, mentoring, and teaching are things you do with people, you might not only help him in a truly life-changing way but also create a lifelong happy memory for yourself, or even a lifelong friendship.
posted by Anitanola at 12:44 PM on May 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you can begin to hear the anger as his old pain and fear, I know that very wonderful things can happen in short term relationships with people who are, in many ways, mismatched. I believe the intimacy can be very intense and healing without regard to its expiration date. It gives a person in pain a safe place to talk about old pain and what happened to them. It also gives them a safe place to try new attitudes, to begin to take a chance.
This would take a complete change of your idea of a summer relationship; you might not want to assume the role of 'wise older woman' with this guy. It might even turn you off completely to think of your relationship this way. But if nurturing, mentoring, and teaching are things you do with people, you might not only help him in a truly life-changing way but also create a lifelong happy memory for yourself, or even a lifelong friendship.
posted by Anitanola at 12:44 PM on May 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I don't necessarily share your boyfriend's political views, but I can have similarly argumentative/obsessive tendencies when I see a frustrating news article, etc. In my case, as tangerine wisely notes, it's usually around 80% anxious energy from other, more concrete stresses in my life. (Doesn't mean the political opinions themselves aren't real, or that I don't have rational grounds for them, but generally obsessing about the distant big picture is a convenient distraction from still more worrisome real-life stuff.)
I'm sorry to say that I don't know how effective the half-assed non-argument approach is likely to be-- saying, "No" or "Well, you know I disagree" or whatever before changing the subject. When someone's feeling anxious and fighty and eager to combat This Big Unreasonable Thing, positioning yourself on the side of that thing, then attempting to disengage, is likely to act as a red flag. You don't have to lie about your views, but you might have better luck finding a more neutral way to avoid the subject-- "Yeah, I know, the world is so f*cked up, right? But it totally depresses me to talk about this stuff. Can I tell you about this funny thing that happened at the supermarket?" Or, "Ugh, you know the New York Times is such a rag, half that stuff is just spun to grab page clicks so they can increase ad revenue. Can we figure out what movie we're going to see later?"
Basically, if you can find some way to briefly agree on a much larger scale (yes, things are unfair (in general!), these articles are annoying (for whatever reason!), it is kind of a shitty time to be alive right now (for everyone!)), that can help give you the ethos to then immediately dismiss the specific discussion and turn things to a more cheerful subject.
posted by Bardolph at 12:53 PM on May 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry to say that I don't know how effective the half-assed non-argument approach is likely to be-- saying, "No" or "Well, you know I disagree" or whatever before changing the subject. When someone's feeling anxious and fighty and eager to combat This Big Unreasonable Thing, positioning yourself on the side of that thing, then attempting to disengage, is likely to act as a red flag. You don't have to lie about your views, but you might have better luck finding a more neutral way to avoid the subject-- "Yeah, I know, the world is so f*cked up, right? But it totally depresses me to talk about this stuff. Can I tell you about this funny thing that happened at the supermarket?" Or, "Ugh, you know the New York Times is such a rag, half that stuff is just spun to grab page clicks so they can increase ad revenue. Can we figure out what movie we're going to see later?"
Basically, if you can find some way to briefly agree on a much larger scale (yes, things are unfair (in general!), these articles are annoying (for whatever reason!), it is kind of a shitty time to be alive right now (for everyone!)), that can help give you the ethos to then immediately dismiss the specific discussion and turn things to a more cheerful subject.
posted by Bardolph at 12:53 PM on May 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Scalzi had a great post comparing life as a straight white male to playing a videogame at the lowest difficulty setting there is.
posted by Sophont at 1:31 PM on May 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Sophont at 1:31 PM on May 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
He had a rough day yesterday and last night came over for dinner while he was having what he called anger about an article in the NYT on gender ratios and study habits among undergrads.
I want you to think back when you were 16 years old, dreaming of what your future significant other would be like. Now imagine telling that 16-year-old that the sentence above would be something you would write, and actually, seriously consider whether that person was right for you.
"Yeah, your boyfriend is going to come to your place for dinner, and it's going to be awkward because he's angry about an article he read in the New York Times about gender ratios and study habits among undergrads."
"Angry about what now?"
"Gender ratios and study habits among undergrads."
"And I'm going to cook him dinner?"
"Yep."
"He must be quite the catch in all other respects."
"No, not really. After dinner, you're going to describe him to a bunch of strangers with words like 'deeply paranoid and weird.'"
"And I'm still going to date him?"
"In fact, you're going to ask these strangers about the best way to stay with him."
"Wow. Future me needs some perspective."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:32 PM on May 4, 2013 [55 favorites]
I want you to think back when you were 16 years old, dreaming of what your future significant other would be like. Now imagine telling that 16-year-old that the sentence above would be something you would write, and actually, seriously consider whether that person was right for you.
"Yeah, your boyfriend is going to come to your place for dinner, and it's going to be awkward because he's angry about an article he read in the New York Times about gender ratios and study habits among undergrads."
"Angry about what now?"
"Gender ratios and study habits among undergrads."
"And I'm going to cook him dinner?"
"Yep."
"He must be quite the catch in all other respects."
"No, not really. After dinner, you're going to describe him to a bunch of strangers with words like 'deeply paranoid and weird.'"
"And I'm still going to date him?"
"In fact, you're going to ask these strangers about the best way to stay with him."
"Wow. Future me needs some perspective."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:32 PM on May 4, 2013 [55 favorites]
Honestly, I'm reminded of this thread more than anything else.
Obviously it's not the exact same situation, but go read that nonetheless. something like that is your future.
Why put up with someone like this? He's a human shit toilet. As I said in that thread, I lived with a guy who would constantly get mad at pictures like that, and stand strong on MRA type viewpoints. To give a tl;dr a lot of people quietly hated him, a few not so quietly... And he drove away a lot of our lady friends for a while.
Expect, if you're hanging out with this guy for people not to want to hang out with you, or not invite you to things simply because they don't want him there.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't waste your life on toiletman.
posted by emptythought at 1:42 PM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Obviously it's not the exact same situation, but go read that nonetheless. something like that is your future.
Why put up with someone like this? He's a human shit toilet. As I said in that thread, I lived with a guy who would constantly get mad at pictures like that, and stand strong on MRA type viewpoints. To give a tl;dr a lot of people quietly hated him, a few not so quietly... And he drove away a lot of our lady friends for a while.
Expect, if you're hanging out with this guy for people not to want to hang out with you, or not invite you to things simply because they don't want him there.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't waste your life on toiletman.
posted by emptythought at 1:42 PM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you might try being a bit more forceful about nonconfontation.
I said I had and that, while I wasn't super impressed with the article, I didn’t think it was something we should talk about because we likely had strong disagreements.
Instead of thinking it's something you shouldn't talk about, maybe explain that these fights or talks make you upset and you refuse to go down that path? And then if persists, refuse to engage; walk away if need be.
That said, I think this relationship has run its course and is no longer fun, and you should call things off ahead of schedule.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:51 PM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I said I had and that, while I wasn't super impressed with the article, I didn’t think it was something we should talk about because we likely had strong disagreements.
Instead of thinking it's something you shouldn't talk about, maybe explain that these fights or talks make you upset and you refuse to go down that path? And then if persists, refuse to engage; walk away if need be.
That said, I think this relationship has run its course and is no longer fun, and you should call things off ahead of schedule.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:51 PM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
The Noble Goofy Elk, I am honestly worried for you. Your description of this guy made me feel extremely tense as I was reading it. You sound like a very supportive and reasonable person, who believes that if you find the right way to be supportive and reasonable towards this guy, he will behave the same way towards you and in general. Because of this, my stab in the dark of a guess is that you haven't experienced any type of abuse in your life. I just don't think that's how it works with people who exhibit this type of behavior. I am worried that you haven't been in this particular situation enough times to pick up on the very scary warning signs.
1. This guy clearly wanted to pick a fight with you. No matter how you tried to avoid and deflect it, he forced the fight on you because you ended up having it. This guy sees you as his opponent and he wants to fight you. He can't fight everyone in the world who has wronged him, but you're in front of him and he can fight you on it.
2. He (at least during the fight you had) used you as a stand-in for everyone who has wronged him, and he has major uncontrollable rage towards the people who have wronged him. Not good...
3. His thinking is paranoid and delusional, even you admit this. This is not a person whose beliefs are going to respond at all to logic.
His rage is irrational, he wants to use you as a stand-in for the target of his rage, and he has already shown he is determined to fight you whether you want to fight or not.
4. He has rage that is so severe he can't keep it under control for a quiet evening at home with a friend. That's not normal at all.
5. When he has a "bad day" his rage gets worse. Luckily, that last bad day will be the worst bad day he will ever have right? In fact, it'll be the last bad day he'll ever have all summer, right?
6. When he has a bad day he feels even more entitled to take his rage out on people.
I think you don't realize, OP, that this is not a safe situation. You're thinking, how can I get him to act reasonable and stop fighting me so we can just have a nice time? You're not realizing that he is fundamentally NOT reasonable, doesn't wish to be reasonable, he WANTS to fight you, and he is definitely going to continue doing just that for as long as you interact with him. I am very scared and nervous for you OP. I think this is only going to get worse, way worse.
posted by cairdeas at 2:04 PM on May 4, 2013 [22 favorites]
1. This guy clearly wanted to pick a fight with you. No matter how you tried to avoid and deflect it, he forced the fight on you because you ended up having it. This guy sees you as his opponent and he wants to fight you. He can't fight everyone in the world who has wronged him, but you're in front of him and he can fight you on it.
2. He (at least during the fight you had) used you as a stand-in for everyone who has wronged him, and he has major uncontrollable rage towards the people who have wronged him. Not good...
3. His thinking is paranoid and delusional, even you admit this. This is not a person whose beliefs are going to respond at all to logic.
His rage is irrational, he wants to use you as a stand-in for the target of his rage, and he has already shown he is determined to fight you whether you want to fight or not.
4. He has rage that is so severe he can't keep it under control for a quiet evening at home with a friend. That's not normal at all.
5. When he has a "bad day" his rage gets worse. Luckily, that last bad day will be the worst bad day he will ever have right? In fact, it'll be the last bad day he'll ever have all summer, right?
6. When he has a bad day he feels even more entitled to take his rage out on people.
I think you don't realize, OP, that this is not a safe situation. You're thinking, how can I get him to act reasonable and stop fighting me so we can just have a nice time? You're not realizing that he is fundamentally NOT reasonable, doesn't wish to be reasonable, he WANTS to fight you, and he is definitely going to continue doing just that for as long as you interact with him. I am very scared and nervous for you OP. I think this is only going to get worse, way worse.
posted by cairdeas at 2:04 PM on May 4, 2013 [22 favorites]
Response by poster: There is so much insightful advice here, and lots of ways it hadn't occurred to me to look at this situation. I'm so grateful, thank you all so much!
Just to prevent any potential worry, I do want to clarify a smitch. I don't think this is headed toward abuse territory. I wasn't super specific in describing last night, but that conversation was not abusive. He did listen to me and agree with some of the things I said, even though he kept his initial reaction to the article pretty much intact. The fact that we discussed it at all after I had said I didn't want to was just as much my fault as his - I tried to talk for a minute about objections to journalism styles in general, but it wound back around to "how can they say such hateful things about white males?" pretty quickly. I believe he left not because he was angry at me over the argument, but because he wasn't able to shake his residual anger from whatever had unglued him earlier in the day.
I realize that just because he hasn't turned his anger toward me doesn't mean he never would, certainly. But I'm not seeing any red or yellow flags for abuse at this time.
Also, not exactly on topic or anything, but please don't call my boyfriend a human shit toilet. It's not that I don't appreciate the input overall, but that language is pretty hurtful.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 2:36 PM on May 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
Just to prevent any potential worry, I do want to clarify a smitch. I don't think this is headed toward abuse territory. I wasn't super specific in describing last night, but that conversation was not abusive. He did listen to me and agree with some of the things I said, even though he kept his initial reaction to the article pretty much intact. The fact that we discussed it at all after I had said I didn't want to was just as much my fault as his - I tried to talk for a minute about objections to journalism styles in general, but it wound back around to "how can they say such hateful things about white males?" pretty quickly. I believe he left not because he was angry at me over the argument, but because he wasn't able to shake his residual anger from whatever had unglued him earlier in the day.
I realize that just because he hasn't turned his anger toward me doesn't mean he never would, certainly. But I'm not seeing any red or yellow flags for abuse at this time.
Also, not exactly on topic or anything, but please don't call my boyfriend a human shit toilet. It's not that I don't appreciate the input overall, but that language is pretty hurtful.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 2:36 PM on May 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yea, I apologize for that. I just have a very visceral reaction to people who are super aggressive about this type of thing, and have had repeated terrible experiences with them that all started out about like this, with just occasional "oh, hmm, why is he arguing so much about this or so upset about this?"
Like cairdeas, I was emphatically sounding the red alert. I may have gotten a bit overenthusiastic with that.
That said, your update doesn't make me all that much less concerned. You basically posted saying "so I just got home and there's smoke pouring out all of my windows, and I can see a red glow inside. What do you guys think?" And we were going, in our own ways, "oh god, it sounds like your house is on fire! Get away and call the fire dept from a neighbors" to which you essentially came back and said "well, it could look like it was on fire but I don't think it really is".
Splitting hairs and adding in modifiers of "well this situation wasnt XYZ if I put it in this really specific way" isn't all that convincing to people who have seen dudes like your guy. Just because you may have prompted the conversation doesn't make his responses normal adult stuff, nor does it excuse him using you as a lightning rod for his residual anger from someone else.
What I'm saying is that, yea, it still sounds like your house is on fire. That's part of the reason I practically screamed "GET BACK IT'S GONNA BLOW" in the first place.
and I apologize again for what I said. I, myself was taking out residual anger from someone else on your description of him, I suppose. That was definitely out of like for the standards of discourse here, or anywhere you'd have a conversation on something like this.
posted by emptythought at 3:17 PM on May 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Like cairdeas, I was emphatically sounding the red alert. I may have gotten a bit overenthusiastic with that.
That said, your update doesn't make me all that much less concerned. You basically posted saying "so I just got home and there's smoke pouring out all of my windows, and I can see a red glow inside. What do you guys think?" And we were going, in our own ways, "oh god, it sounds like your house is on fire! Get away and call the fire dept from a neighbors" to which you essentially came back and said "well, it could look like it was on fire but I don't think it really is".
Splitting hairs and adding in modifiers of "well this situation wasnt XYZ if I put it in this really specific way" isn't all that convincing to people who have seen dudes like your guy. Just because you may have prompted the conversation doesn't make his responses normal adult stuff, nor does it excuse him using you as a lightning rod for his residual anger from someone else.
What I'm saying is that, yea, it still sounds like your house is on fire. That's part of the reason I practically screamed "GET BACK IT'S GONNA BLOW" in the first place.
and I apologize again for what I said. I, myself was taking out residual anger from someone else on your description of him, I suppose. That was definitely out of like for the standards of discourse here, or anywhere you'd have a conversation on something like this.
posted by emptythought at 3:17 PM on May 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
To me it sounds like the problem isn't that you have opposing viewpoints, but that you (as a couple) don't know how to discuss them. I don't think that he wants to "discuss", so much as he wants to be "right." I'm getting this from your comment that "His go-to reaction to many things is "white males are victimized by society." Things that have, objectively, nothing to do with race or gender, he sees through this lens."
You framed this question as "I feel like we need to find a way of talking about this kind of thing without pushing each others' buttons." Does he share this sentiment? If not, if you want to keep dating this guy, then I think you have to shut these types of conversations down. Remind him that you want to have a "fun summer" and that you don't see eye to eye on these things and likely never will. I think it'd be a waste of time trying to get him to a point where he can objectively "agree to disagree." This is what I've done in my own "at odds" type of relationships and the only other alternative I see is to "mmhmm, I see" and deflect.
posted by sm1tten at 3:27 PM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
You framed this question as "I feel like we need to find a way of talking about this kind of thing without pushing each others' buttons." Does he share this sentiment? If not, if you want to keep dating this guy, then I think you have to shut these types of conversations down. Remind him that you want to have a "fun summer" and that you don't see eye to eye on these things and likely never will. I think it'd be a waste of time trying to get him to a point where he can objectively "agree to disagree." This is what I've done in my own "at odds" type of relationships and the only other alternative I see is to "mmhmm, I see" and deflect.
posted by sm1tten at 3:27 PM on May 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
You know, having known a few people who wanted to be constantly right about this issue, it has always manifested itself very negatively in the end.
If you do with to keep hanging with him, emphasize your desire to have fun over the other stuff - you're there to have fun, let's have fun, summer fun!
[But, really, this is all a bit too much effort for funsexytimes]
posted by heyjude at 6:59 PM on May 4, 2013
If you do with to keep hanging with him, emphasize your desire to have fun over the other stuff - you're there to have fun, let's have fun, summer fun!
[But, really, this is all a bit too much effort for funsexytimes]
posted by heyjude at 6:59 PM on May 4, 2013
You know, having known a few people who wanted to be constantly right about this issue, it has always manifested itself very negatively in the end.
This is true of both sexes.
If someone's worldview is about figuring out what the hierarchy of people and their relative freedoms and oppressions are, they aren't going to be happy unless they can continue to see the world that way.
"[my group] is constantly trod upon" is in the eye of the beholder. It's a negative worldview, no matter who the group is. Either agree to exclude this type of conversation, or go your separate ways. Two people set upon convincing the other that they have the moral high ground for their opinions is never going to work. Unless angry sex is your thing.
posted by gjc at 7:12 PM on May 4, 2013
This is true of both sexes.
If someone's worldview is about figuring out what the hierarchy of people and their relative freedoms and oppressions are, they aren't going to be happy unless they can continue to see the world that way.
"[my group] is constantly trod upon" is in the eye of the beholder. It's a negative worldview, no matter who the group is. Either agree to exclude this type of conversation, or go your separate ways. Two people set upon convincing the other that they have the moral high ground for their opinions is never going to work. Unless angry sex is your thing.
posted by gjc at 7:12 PM on May 4, 2013
Do this. Call him or whatever, do it when you're not in the middle of a fight, and say unto him:
"Hey, listen. I know it sucks to have to talk about things, but: Politics. There are things we don't agree on. I know this. You know this. We both know this. We also both know that our minds aren't really going to change on these, and they seem to be leading to fights. I'm calling a truce. I'm not gonna bring up feminist stuff around you, and you don't bring up anything about how white males are oppressed. Okay? I don't want to fight and we don't really seem to be able to not fight whenever this comes up. There are a million other things we can talk about, and I'm looking forward to talking about that. I just want to enjoy our time together and not fight. Deal?"
And then: Be prepared to repeat that in the gentlest way you can, maybe a couple times, and if he's cool he'll get the hint (it may take a few tries).
Please be advised that this would be disastrous in a long-term thing, but it should get you through the summer.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:20 PM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Hey, listen. I know it sucks to have to talk about things, but: Politics. There are things we don't agree on. I know this. You know this. We both know this. We also both know that our minds aren't really going to change on these, and they seem to be leading to fights. I'm calling a truce. I'm not gonna bring up feminist stuff around you, and you don't bring up anything about how white males are oppressed. Okay? I don't want to fight and we don't really seem to be able to not fight whenever this comes up. There are a million other things we can talk about, and I'm looking forward to talking about that. I just want to enjoy our time together and not fight. Deal?"
And then: Be prepared to repeat that in the gentlest way you can, maybe a couple times, and if he's cool he'll get the hint (it may take a few tries).
Please be advised that this would be disastrous in a long-term thing, but it should get you through the summer.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:20 PM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
There is a very crude, misogynist and neuronormative saying along the lines of "don't [have sex with] [people who have unresolved or untreated mental disorders]." As crude as the original saying is, it is a pretty good policy if you don't want to get caught up in drama or be someone's enabler. The time between relationships is a pretty good time for people to think about the message that they need to get their s#it together.
It may very well be that OP's significant other is consciously or subconsciously processing some of his own beliefs. That might not even be a very productive process, but I do believe that people are capable of change and that bumping your beliefs up against other real humans that you know in real life is the only thing that ever gets people to change.
This also seems like a variation on the "Partner A wants someone to listen and sympathize" and "Partner B want to fix and give solutions" paradigm. When I read an upsetting article or get twisted about an Internet discussion on gender issues, sometimes I just need to spill my guts and have someone touch me on the shoulder and say, "I can see this is really upsetting to you. What can we do to find some peace of mind for you?"
OP wants to have a fling and also wants someone who respects OP's ideas. SO wants to have a fling and also have someone to inflict his ideas on. Ignoring this conflict isn't going to make it go away and it sure isn't letting anyone live up to their own ideals.
I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits of this relationship, but I am kind of a strange bird who seeks relationships (short or long term) that can lead to personal growth and discovery and not everybody is looking for that. Another piece of advice I've heard frequently is, "are you getting what you need?"
posted by Skwirl at 12:07 AM on May 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
It may very well be that OP's significant other is consciously or subconsciously processing some of his own beliefs. That might not even be a very productive process, but I do believe that people are capable of change and that bumping your beliefs up against other real humans that you know in real life is the only thing that ever gets people to change.
This also seems like a variation on the "Partner A wants someone to listen and sympathize" and "Partner B want to fix and give solutions" paradigm. When I read an upsetting article or get twisted about an Internet discussion on gender issues, sometimes I just need to spill my guts and have someone touch me on the shoulder and say, "I can see this is really upsetting to you. What can we do to find some peace of mind for you?"
OP wants to have a fling and also wants someone who respects OP's ideas. SO wants to have a fling and also have someone to inflict his ideas on. Ignoring this conflict isn't going to make it go away and it sure isn't letting anyone live up to their own ideals.
I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits of this relationship, but I am kind of a strange bird who seeks relationships (short or long term) that can lead to personal growth and discovery and not everybody is looking for that. Another piece of advice I've heard frequently is, "are you getting what you need?"
posted by Skwirl at 12:07 AM on May 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've been around people who have some delusions about the world - not misogyny necessarily but say something along the lines of "people are out to get me." And when every now and then someone does something shitty it seems like they are almost happy about it and almost satisfied, despite the hurt. "See, I WAS RIGHT. Everyone is an asshole who hates me! HAH."
I imagine it's sort of like the satisfaction of picking at a scab. There's this deep deep hurt and anger from another time, where they *were* profoundly wronged by people who should have loved and helped them, a hurt that they don't know how to heal themselves and is impossible to ignore, and isn't easily understood, but if other people could just GET it then somehow it would be ok.
And yet, whether you argue, or whether you agree, it never seems to help them.
Playing therapist has NOT worked.
Trying to prove them wrong with logic has not worked.
Being kind but not overly involved and creating boundaries is the only thing that seems to help - though it only helps me, and not them.
I agree with above commenters that your happiness is probably better served by finding another source of NSA sex for the summer, but since this angle has been covered ...
It sounds like your attempts to not discuss these things haven't worked out so well. I suppose you could adopt a kink for gagging your partner? (sorry). You could also try simple honesty. "I care about you and it's hard to see this belief that seems to hurt you so much, and I feel [your feeling here] when we go around and around on this the way that we do. To me this isn't 'enjoying the summer together.' I need our time together to be enjoyable and not fraught with tension, and for me this is going to mean not having this argument every time I see you."
And then, when the argument starts again, just leave. Or ask him to leave.
Or you could ask questions like "Why do you think we keep having this conversation? Do you want to change my mind? What would it mean to you if I agreed with you and said yes, life is terrible for white men?" But god knows where THAT line of questioning might go.
posted by bunderful at 11:57 AM on May 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I imagine it's sort of like the satisfaction of picking at a scab. There's this deep deep hurt and anger from another time, where they *were* profoundly wronged by people who should have loved and helped them, a hurt that they don't know how to heal themselves and is impossible to ignore, and isn't easily understood, but if other people could just GET it then somehow it would be ok.
And yet, whether you argue, or whether you agree, it never seems to help them.
Playing therapist has NOT worked.
Trying to prove them wrong with logic has not worked.
Being kind but not overly involved and creating boundaries is the only thing that seems to help - though it only helps me, and not them.
I agree with above commenters that your happiness is probably better served by finding another source of NSA sex for the summer, but since this angle has been covered ...
It sounds like your attempts to not discuss these things haven't worked out so well. I suppose you could adopt a kink for gagging your partner? (sorry). You could also try simple honesty. "I care about you and it's hard to see this belief that seems to hurt you so much, and I feel [your feeling here] when we go around and around on this the way that we do. To me this isn't 'enjoying the summer together.' I need our time together to be enjoyable and not fraught with tension, and for me this is going to mean not having this argument every time I see you."
And then, when the argument starts again, just leave. Or ask him to leave.
Or you could ask questions like "Why do you think we keep having this conversation? Do you want to change my mind? What would it mean to you if I agreed with you and said yes, life is terrible for white men?" But god knows where THAT line of questioning might go.
posted by bunderful at 11:57 AM on May 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not going to be a "good summer" if you have to constantly repress conflicts over your incompatible beliefs. Meanwhile, time wasted dating a guy that a) is going away and b) you're not compatible with is time that you're not available to meet Mr. Right. I think you would be better off ending things with him and focusing your time and energy on meeting someone with whom you won't have these conflicts.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:26 PM on May 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacqueline at 6:26 PM on May 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: You guys are awesome, thank you all so much!
We had a talk, he emphatically agrees with tangerine (I actually read him part of the answer, while characterizing it as something I 'read on the internet') that this response is a feeling and not a sociological analysis. I strongly suspected that was the case, because, as I said to him:
(1) "you aren't Rush Limbaugh at all, you're very left wing, so it's very strange to hear this kind of (what I experience as, because of its usual context) vitriol coming from you."
(2) the NYT article was about something he is experiencing a huge amount of personal stress and insecurity about - academic performance. He read it and felt that some random journalist was predicting his failure in upcoming graduate school.
So, the deal is, when he feels this stuff, we can talk about it until the cows come home, but we can only talk primary source, not resulting MRA babble. He said like he felt a giant weight was lifted off his shoulders and that it felt so good to see that he anger was a manifestation of anxiety. He's going to his therapist with this particular topic this week.
To round up some various questions, I would not characterize this as NSA or a fling, he is definitely Boyfriend and we have some pretty serious feelings. I just don't want a long distance relationship, and I don't want to move, so it's going to end. And it's going to break both our hearts and we justify this by realizing either of us could get hit by a truck tomorrow. A recipe for heartbreak for sure, and, as a friend so lovingly told me "Keep it up, The Noble Goofy Elk. You're on the highway to hell."
I always wanted to be the person who could remain detached and casual, but I am NOT that person. I love this relationship because it's not something I ever would've given a chance before, due to, well, due to that he hunts and I find that awful. But I think letting someone in who isn't within my usual parameters has made me grow in really positive ways. AND, I think all the answers to this question have made me grow in really positive ways.
Oh, and while I'm abusing this comment privilege, CPB, I love your comment so much, because at 16 I spent a great deal of time truly and deeply upset about the characterization of gender differences in the media. 16 year old me would've been like "what's his number, let's get started early" because of my own righteous feminist rage.
Is it threadsitting if the thread is over?
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 1:00 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
We had a talk, he emphatically agrees with tangerine (I actually read him part of the answer, while characterizing it as something I 'read on the internet') that this response is a feeling and not a sociological analysis. I strongly suspected that was the case, because, as I said to him:
(1) "you aren't Rush Limbaugh at all, you're very left wing, so it's very strange to hear this kind of (what I experience as, because of its usual context) vitriol coming from you."
(2) the NYT article was about something he is experiencing a huge amount of personal stress and insecurity about - academic performance. He read it and felt that some random journalist was predicting his failure in upcoming graduate school.
So, the deal is, when he feels this stuff, we can talk about it until the cows come home, but we can only talk primary source, not resulting MRA babble. He said like he felt a giant weight was lifted off his shoulders and that it felt so good to see that he anger was a manifestation of anxiety. He's going to his therapist with this particular topic this week.
To round up some various questions, I would not characterize this as NSA or a fling, he is definitely Boyfriend and we have some pretty serious feelings. I just don't want a long distance relationship, and I don't want to move, so it's going to end. And it's going to break both our hearts and we justify this by realizing either of us could get hit by a truck tomorrow. A recipe for heartbreak for sure, and, as a friend so lovingly told me "Keep it up, The Noble Goofy Elk. You're on the highway to hell."
I always wanted to be the person who could remain detached and casual, but I am NOT that person. I love this relationship because it's not something I ever would've given a chance before, due to, well, due to that he hunts and I find that awful. But I think letting someone in who isn't within my usual parameters has made me grow in really positive ways. AND, I think all the answers to this question have made me grow in really positive ways.
Oh, and while I'm abusing this comment privilege, CPB, I love your comment so much, because at 16 I spent a great deal of time truly and deeply upset about the characterization of gender differences in the media. 16 year old me would've been like "what's his number, let's get started early" because of my own righteous feminist rage.
Is it threadsitting if the thread is over?
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 1:00 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
Wow, if I didn't know any better I'd think I wrote this. I had an eerily similar experience recently, and have realized for my best interests, to no longer pursue the friendship. It initially started out really great with fantastic communication and intellectual conversation. However, the more I got to know them, the less I liked them and the less I wanted to socialize with that person. Sprinkled with condescending remarks about gender, ethnicity, and feminism and especially my gender, ethnicity, and my views on feminism. But it wasn't only that, it was a clusterfudge of a whole bunch of little things that I eventually realized keeping the peace and avoiding miscommunication was more trouble than the friendship was worth.
Now, I completely and wholeheartedly subscribe to the school of "you can still like people regardless of their differences" being physical, differences of opinion, etc. But some people are just closed-minded and believe their way of thinking and behaving is correct regardless. This was accompanied by a touch of arrogance and superiority and feigned hurt and misunderstanding too many times. That person felt entitled for sure, but I couldn't handle the superiority complex and the not meeting each other halfway even if it was only intellectually.
I am a firm believer that who you choose to socialize and have as a significant part of your life is conducive to the internal environment you create for yourself. Eventually this person will drain you. Your social efforts could be better spent on someone who will reciprocate the friendship in a positive way and still not necessarily needing to agree with you on multiple subjects. Agreeing to disagree can only go so far, especially when those values and beliefs really are offensive and chucking them into the "oh but they're still a nice person and maybe I'm being too sensitive" bin will only end up causing strife in the long run. That is a long road to wasted time and you will only feel crappy about yourself at the end of the day due to the emotional taxing.
It could turn out different, but that was my experience, and I couldn't be happier that I cut that person out of my life. I don't let anyone into my life that causes me any sort of unpleasant feelings on a daily or normal interaction basis.
posted by lunastellasol at 11:12 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Now, I completely and wholeheartedly subscribe to the school of "you can still like people regardless of their differences" being physical, differences of opinion, etc. But some people are just closed-minded and believe their way of thinking and behaving is correct regardless. This was accompanied by a touch of arrogance and superiority and feigned hurt and misunderstanding too many times. That person felt entitled for sure, but I couldn't handle the superiority complex and the not meeting each other halfway even if it was only intellectually.
I am a firm believer that who you choose to socialize and have as a significant part of your life is conducive to the internal environment you create for yourself. Eventually this person will drain you. Your social efforts could be better spent on someone who will reciprocate the friendship in a positive way and still not necessarily needing to agree with you on multiple subjects. Agreeing to disagree can only go so far, especially when those values and beliefs really are offensive and chucking them into the "oh but they're still a nice person and maybe I'm being too sensitive" bin will only end up causing strife in the long run. That is a long road to wasted time and you will only feel crappy about yourself at the end of the day due to the emotional taxing.
It could turn out different, but that was my experience, and I couldn't be happier that I cut that person out of my life. I don't let anyone into my life that causes me any sort of unpleasant feelings on a daily or normal interaction basis.
posted by lunastellasol at 11:12 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, and the person I tried having a friendship with was a white male who characterizes your boyfriend to the T in the way you have described him.
I suggest finding someone who cares about what you have to say. Not, "I care about what you have to say but..." or "that's nice except I still feel exactly the same way". It doesn't sound like the basis of a good relationship in the long run. Just advice for the future since this guy is moving away. Learn from this relationship, you will come across people like this in your life. It's up to you if it matters and is worth the effort.
Please don't let that come at your expense and happiness.
posted by lunastellasol at 11:24 AM on May 7, 2013
I suggest finding someone who cares about what you have to say. Not, "I care about what you have to say but..." or "that's nice except I still feel exactly the same way". It doesn't sound like the basis of a good relationship in the long run. Just advice for the future since this guy is moving away. Learn from this relationship, you will come across people like this in your life. It's up to you if it matters and is worth the effort.
Please don't let that come at your expense and happiness.
posted by lunastellasol at 11:24 AM on May 7, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you still enjoy being around him when these issues don't come up, I would say plainly "I like spending time with you but I don't like discussing X issues. Can we agree to just not discuss it?" If the answer is no, then the relationship is over.
Honestly I would want to end the relationship already anyway, but I know some people have higher tolerances for these kinds of things.
posted by telegraph at 9:28 AM on May 4, 2013 [41 favorites]