I promise I don't bite . . .
April 27, 2013 5:25 PM
What causes social rejection absent a glaring personality flaw?
Here's the scenario: you have a group of friends, colleagues, classmates, etc. You're in their city and free to hang out, so you call or message several of them asking if they want to meet up. You mention a specific time and place. No one calls back or shows up.
Scenario #2: You are in a new social situation - maybe a committee at work or a tour group while traveling. You socialize with people in the group and are perfectly friendly. When an opportunity arises for socializing outside the confines of the shared activity, others in the group hang out together and you are not invited. This is not out of malice or hatred; if you happen to be around when the plans are announced, no one minds if you tag along. But no one seems to care whether you are there or not. Bonus points if someone in the group rather obviously, but silently, finds you completely annoying.
Obviously the person in the scenarios is me, and "Find new friends" or "They're just being jerks" does not really apply. I have a few good friends with whom this isn't a problem and the people I meet are not overwhelmingly jerky. But despite being friendly and positive, I find that these two scenarios happen to me over and over again. I have to assume that it is some sort of quality of my personality, so out of curiosity . . . what is it? I'm not, like, despondent (OMG NO ONE LIKES MEEEEEEEEEE), since I do have people in my life that I click with. But I've always been curious as to what motivates people to pick up the phone and invite THAT person out and not THIS one. So . . . What would make you not want to include them?
Here's the scenario: you have a group of friends, colleagues, classmates, etc. You're in their city and free to hang out, so you call or message several of them asking if they want to meet up. You mention a specific time and place. No one calls back or shows up.
Scenario #2: You are in a new social situation - maybe a committee at work or a tour group while traveling. You socialize with people in the group and are perfectly friendly. When an opportunity arises for socializing outside the confines of the shared activity, others in the group hang out together and you are not invited. This is not out of malice or hatred; if you happen to be around when the plans are announced, no one minds if you tag along. But no one seems to care whether you are there or not. Bonus points if someone in the group rather obviously, but silently, finds you completely annoying.
Obviously the person in the scenarios is me, and "Find new friends" or "They're just being jerks" does not really apply. I have a few good friends with whom this isn't a problem and the people I meet are not overwhelmingly jerky. But despite being friendly and positive, I find that these two scenarios happen to me over and over again. I have to assume that it is some sort of quality of my personality, so out of curiosity . . . what is it? I'm not, like, despondent (OMG NO ONE LIKES MEEEEEEEEEE), since I do have people in my life that I click with. But I've always been curious as to what motivates people to pick up the phone and invite THAT person out and not THIS one. So . . . What would make you not want to include them?
Sometimes it's really just that people aren't looking to make new friends. Every friendship costs some amount of time and energy, and if I currently have a big enough group and enough close friends, I probably won't make the extra effort to connect with someone new. It could just be that the people you're trying to make friends with have rather settled and busy social lives. If you're recently out of school, you may find that it's just flat-out harder to make friends once everyone has their own stuff going on and you're not culturally primed to always be hunting for new friends. It's very possible, even likely, that it's not you — the success rate really is kind of low.
posted by you're a kitty! at 5:36 PM on April 27, 2013
posted by you're a kitty! at 5:36 PM on April 27, 2013
Scenario 1 sounds like you called people at the last minute. People can have other things to do or other plans or not be by their phones or not be into what you suggested or just not feel like hanging out at that time. You might have more luck if you give them more advance notice.
About scenario 2, it's really impossible to say why someone in the group silently, obviously finds you really annoying. I'm trying to think of times when I've done that (been silently and OBVIOUSLY annoyed by someone) to remember what caused it. The only thing that comes to mind is when someone has a serious case of what I think of as a "perform-ey" personality. This person is talking really loud, maybe saying kind of outrageous things, being really silly, singing, jumping on things, maybe grabbing or tickling people. They just want to entertain everyone! But it comes off as being really selfishly desperate for that attention. And I resent it when I am out with my friends and I want to enjoy them and someone else is making that impossible. I find talking to my friends more interesting than being a captive audience to this person's one-man show. The other version of this is when it's a woman who is super super flirty. And turns the vibe of the outing from "we're all friends hanging out" to "every male here needs to appreciate how sexy I am and all eyes need to stay on me!!"
These are only two possibilities though, out of an endless number of possibilities. It's impossible to really say. And while I obviously think the things that annoy me are "legitimate" things to be annoyed by, I've also been on the flip side of this in my life where someone is acting annoyed by me for things like being too much of a geek, or even just breathing air, if they're the type to take their bad mood out on whoever is around. It's hard to say if there's anything you should be concerned with changing, or if it's a situation where that person just has something going on that's their own problem.
posted by cairdeas at 5:46 PM on April 27, 2013
About scenario 2, it's really impossible to say why someone in the group silently, obviously finds you really annoying. I'm trying to think of times when I've done that (been silently and OBVIOUSLY annoyed by someone) to remember what caused it. The only thing that comes to mind is when someone has a serious case of what I think of as a "perform-ey" personality. This person is talking really loud, maybe saying kind of outrageous things, being really silly, singing, jumping on things, maybe grabbing or tickling people. They just want to entertain everyone! But it comes off as being really selfishly desperate for that attention. And I resent it when I am out with my friends and I want to enjoy them and someone else is making that impossible. I find talking to my friends more interesting than being a captive audience to this person's one-man show. The other version of this is when it's a woman who is super super flirty. And turns the vibe of the outing from "we're all friends hanging out" to "every male here needs to appreciate how sexy I am and all eyes need to stay on me!!"
These are only two possibilities though, out of an endless number of possibilities. It's impossible to really say. And while I obviously think the things that annoy me are "legitimate" things to be annoyed by, I've also been on the flip side of this in my life where someone is acting annoyed by me for things like being too much of a geek, or even just breathing air, if they're the type to take their bad mood out on whoever is around. It's hard to say if there's anything you should be concerned with changing, or if it's a situation where that person just has something going on that's their own problem.
posted by cairdeas at 5:46 PM on April 27, 2013
Generally people in friendship groups serve particular roles, more or less. I have a friend who can always be counted on for staying out the latest, loudest and wildest. Another one is the planner/organiser, rallyer of people and all around support. Another just makes me laugh like hell. And on and on. These people aren't strictly those character traits, and things change as life happens. But more or less I think of those people when deciding what kind of experience I want to have and who would mutually enjoy such a thing.
What's your role or personality tendency in your social groups? What do you offer them? And is that what these particular groups are looking for? Does somebody already fill that role and they're maybe full-up right now?
These are the sorts of things that factor into invite and show up decisions for people, I think. I am reminded of a friend I have right now who our social circle isn't all that thrilled about. She's fine...nothing wrong with her at all, but there's nothing she brings to the group either. Not much to say and she's a bit of a follower. It's the sort of thing that is apparent, say, when you're with a group of people and everybody gets into mini-conversations. If you're left talking to her you're kind of wondering what other people are talking about and either wish you were in that conversation or go so far as to actively try to bring you both into it. Those experiences add up and eventually, if given the choice, you go with no in having them along.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:47 PM on April 27, 2013
What's your role or personality tendency in your social groups? What do you offer them? And is that what these particular groups are looking for? Does somebody already fill that role and they're maybe full-up right now?
These are the sorts of things that factor into invite and show up decisions for people, I think. I am reminded of a friend I have right now who our social circle isn't all that thrilled about. She's fine...nothing wrong with her at all, but there's nothing she brings to the group either. Not much to say and she's a bit of a follower. It's the sort of thing that is apparent, say, when you're with a group of people and everybody gets into mini-conversations. If you're left talking to her you're kind of wondering what other people are talking about and either wish you were in that conversation or go so far as to actively try to bring you both into it. Those experiences add up and eventually, if given the choice, you go with no in having them along.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:47 PM on April 27, 2013
Arnicae said what I was going to say- and better. The first one, yes, probably was too broad of an invite, people are busy and assume if x number of people are invited then it doesn't really matter if one flakes or not. Take arnicae's advice re next time.
Secondly, same again, casual plans are casual. Also some people 'click' better than others. Don't stress it too much. Although I know it's hard.
Also, your age matters, younger groups more flexible, the older you are the more difficult it is to make random new friend groups. Not impossible, just harder as other responsibilities etc get in the way.
Hope this helps but really just saying 'read arnicae's advice again'.
(Also, maybe you are just highly attuned to this- I do group things and often it's me walking in the other direction so I don't see who's meeting who for lunch. Well, I notice but I'm trying to decompress so it's fine!
Also good friends ARE hard to find so when you do 'click' that makes it even more amazing.)
posted by bquarters at 5:51 PM on April 27, 2013
Secondly, same again, casual plans are casual. Also some people 'click' better than others. Don't stress it too much. Although I know it's hard.
Also, your age matters, younger groups more flexible, the older you are the more difficult it is to make random new friend groups. Not impossible, just harder as other responsibilities etc get in the way.
Hope this helps but really just saying 'read arnicae's advice again'.
(Also, maybe you are just highly attuned to this- I do group things and often it's me walking in the other direction so I don't see who's meeting who for lunch. Well, I notice but I'm trying to decompress so it's fine!
Also good friends ARE hard to find so when you do 'click' that makes it even more amazing.)
posted by bquarters at 5:51 PM on April 27, 2013
You're in their city and free to hang out, so you call or message several of them asking if they want to meet up.
Classic organizational communication issue: it's everybody's problem, so it's nobody's problem.
Next time, don't send a bulk email. Send it to one person - the best organized or most-missed of the bunch - and say, I'll be in town and I'd like to meet up with you specifically. And if they say yes, great, say it would be good to meet X and Y too, and do you think they're available.
Otherwise, everyone will assume somebody else is doing something about it, and like magic, nothing happens.
Protip: systemic problems are very impersonal, but very real.
posted by mhoye at 6:18 PM on April 27, 2013
Classic organizational communication issue: it's everybody's problem, so it's nobody's problem.
Next time, don't send a bulk email. Send it to one person - the best organized or most-missed of the bunch - and say, I'll be in town and I'd like to meet up with you specifically. And if they say yes, great, say it would be good to meet X and Y too, and do you think they're available.
Otherwise, everyone will assume somebody else is doing something about it, and like magic, nothing happens.
Protip: systemic problems are very impersonal, but very real.
posted by mhoye at 6:18 PM on April 27, 2013
I have those same feelings a lot, and to some extent, I think I may be a tad annoying, which gets me left out of some things, when the person who is centrally organizing it is someone who thinks I'm annoying. But I'm not super annoying, I'm pretty sure, and no more annoying than some of the other people in my social group so I struggle sometimes to explain it.
I think often group plans come about because a couple of people have really clicked as friends and they make things happen and then the other people who get included are just the people who are around at the time. And if you miss one or two early events by not being around, then you become not part of the core group by a sort of unconscious process. People talk about things to do later at one event and since you weren't part of that conversation they don't necessarily think of you when it's time for the next one.
So, it could be somewhat you, and somewhat your acquaintances, and somewhat just sort of the nature of casual gatherings. It's impossible for the internet to pinpoint the you-related parts of this because a) we don't know you and b) we don't know what annoys your acquaintances.
You can to some extent counteract the scenario 2 stuff by being the driving force behind a few social activities so that you work your way back into the core group.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:27 PM on April 27, 2013
I think often group plans come about because a couple of people have really clicked as friends and they make things happen and then the other people who get included are just the people who are around at the time. And if you miss one or two early events by not being around, then you become not part of the core group by a sort of unconscious process. People talk about things to do later at one event and since you weren't part of that conversation they don't necessarily think of you when it's time for the next one.
So, it could be somewhat you, and somewhat your acquaintances, and somewhat just sort of the nature of casual gatherings. It's impossible for the internet to pinpoint the you-related parts of this because a) we don't know you and b) we don't know what annoys your acquaintances.
You can to some extent counteract the scenario 2 stuff by being the driving force behind a few social activities so that you work your way back into the core group.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:27 PM on April 27, 2013
Hmm, so are you inviting friends, colleagues and classmates all to the same thing? These groups might find it awkward to interact and be put off by that. But it seems like your invite might just be to casual and impersonal.
In the second situation, it seems that these are spur of the moment plans and in a group of new people, they overlook you. Do you like to spend a lot of time on work/touring by yourself? Its easy to be forgotten that way, or also just thought not interested in hanging out.
posted by florencetnoa at 6:30 PM on April 27, 2013
In the second situation, it seems that these are spur of the moment plans and in a group of new people, they overlook you. Do you like to spend a lot of time on work/touring by yourself? Its easy to be forgotten that way, or also just thought not interested in hanging out.
posted by florencetnoa at 6:30 PM on April 27, 2013
Whoops, cairdeas hit way close to home there. I don't think I'm outrageous but I would say I perform when I'm in a group. I'm kinda introverted by nature (florencetnoa hit another nail on the head) and so when I'm with people I feel like I'm "on".
This has been very enlightening! I thought I was getting over the "bulk email" issue by picking a specific time and place (so we wouldn't just all say, "Oh yeah that sounds like a good idea!" and then trust someone else to make concrete plans), but I'll try one at a time next time. Thanks!
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:38 PM on April 27, 2013
This has been very enlightening! I thought I was getting over the "bulk email" issue by picking a specific time and place (so we wouldn't just all say, "Oh yeah that sounds like a good idea!" and then trust someone else to make concrete plans), but I'll try one at a time next time. Thanks!
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:38 PM on April 27, 2013
It doesn't have to be a glaring personality flaw. Sometimes just a different way of operating. I'm an introvert, and I like people with whom I feel comfortable chatting without feeling like my social ineptitude leaves awkward silences. But on the other hand I hate perfectly nice, well-meaning, decent, kind people who just will not shut up. I have actively dialed back my interactions with folks who chatter on and on and on.
I'm not suggesting that's you - or that you're in my shoes either - but it could easily be something specific like that that makes a clash.
posted by Occula at 7:50 PM on April 27, 2013
I'm not suggesting that's you - or that you're in my shoes either - but it could easily be something specific like that that makes a clash.
posted by Occula at 7:50 PM on April 27, 2013
Maybe you're just trying too hard and it shows. Try smiling and listening and just easing up, getting comfortable in the group instead of counting how many people seem to be "liking" you vs how many don't. Just a thought.
posted by aryma at 8:33 PM on April 27, 2013
posted by aryma at 8:33 PM on April 27, 2013
Here are a couple of possibilities: what if you have a physical problem that you're perhaps not aware of, like chronic halitosis? It might be worth a little time and effort to find out.
Or what if you tend to float around the fringes of the group rather than getting close to anyone (with sincerity and openness?) If you haven't formed any close friendships, and if you're bulk-mailing invites, then people might simply be assuming (individually) that you're more an acquaintance than a friend. How about, instead of inviting a bunch of people or waiting to be invited to something, you reach out to a specific person and ask them specifically to do something with you?
posted by davejay at 11:53 PM on April 27, 2013
Or what if you tend to float around the fringes of the group rather than getting close to anyone (with sincerity and openness?) If you haven't formed any close friendships, and if you're bulk-mailing invites, then people might simply be assuming (individually) that you're more an acquaintance than a friend. How about, instead of inviting a bunch of people or waiting to be invited to something, you reach out to a specific person and ask them specifically to do something with you?
posted by davejay at 11:53 PM on April 27, 2013
Ignoring everything but the first sentence of your post, I will say "empathy". I mean this in the sense of knowing how your presence, action, and words directly affect other people. Absent a flaw, perhaps there is simply a gap, something you don't see.
posted by Area Control at 6:44 AM on April 28, 2013
posted by Area Control at 6:44 AM on April 28, 2013
I find people are more likely to gravitate to you if you show interest in them. Basically, if you think they're cool, they'll think you're cool. People like to feel special and important. If you make people feel special and important, they'll think to invite you to things, and they'll want to show up to your things.
posted by crunchysalty at 7:19 AM on April 28, 2013
posted by crunchysalty at 7:19 AM on April 28, 2013
I think scenarios like that happen to most people now and then, and some people (less socially-anxious than me) are better at rolling on past it than others. It's not necessarily anything to do with you personally, but once you start seeing it as a pattern, it's hard to stop noticing it. And no matter how pleasant you are to be around, you're never going to click with everyone, and that's okay too.
posted by songs about trains at 10:03 AM on April 28, 2013
posted by songs about trains at 10:03 AM on April 28, 2013
Some people have a gift for being social. They're easy to be around and others gravitate toward them. Some people don't have that gift, so they compensate by trying too hard, but that makes them exhausting to be around.
"I've always been curious as to what motivates people to pick up the phone and invite THAT person out and not THIS one. So . . . What would make you not want to include them?"
It's really very simple. If you click, you want to hang out. If you don't click, you don't. Ah, but the other person has to feel the same way.
If you're always on the outside looking in among a group of friends, you probably need to find new friends - people who click with you as much as you click with them.
posted by 2oh1 at 12:42 PM on April 28, 2013
"I've always been curious as to what motivates people to pick up the phone and invite THAT person out and not THIS one. So . . . What would make you not want to include them?"
It's really very simple. If you click, you want to hang out. If you don't click, you don't. Ah, but the other person has to feel the same way.
If you're always on the outside looking in among a group of friends, you probably need to find new friends - people who click with you as much as you click with them.
posted by 2oh1 at 12:42 PM on April 28, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
FRIEND I'm going to be in PLACE Monday through Wednesday of next week, I'd love to catch up - want to get together? When would work for you?
Scenario #2: This socialization was likely planned on the fly, e.g. four folks in the bar after the tour finishes for the afternoon saying "What are we going to have for dinner? Want to go walk around the waterfront and see if we can find something awesome? Hey X [sitting adjacent], want to come? Ok let's go!" They're not excluding you, they just aren't going out of their way to include you. As long as we're talking about acquaintances, that seems entirely normal. Probably the way to get included is to (as you suggest) be hanging out then go along with them.
Person who silently dislikes you? They're a new acquaintance, right? Maybe they're just super duper shy (I have a good friend that I thought hated me for months because she is just that shy). Maybe they hate your perfume/hat/eye color, maybe they resent you for your job, maybe they think you're hot and don't know how to approach you or think you're cuter than they are. Their reasons are inscrutable and not worth plumbing.
I would continue doing what you're doing. If you want to be closer friends with people, start spending time with them one on one. Invite them to the farmer's market/book fair/Greek food celebration tomorrow! If possible, I would try not to dwell on this kind of stuff as much, because you're making your own social outings a lot less fun by infusing it with all this anxiety. I can't help you there, I totally do the same thing. But both of these examples look kinda normal to me.
posted by arnicae at 5:35 PM on April 27, 2013