What's broken: shower, tank, pump, thermostat, boiler, or all??
April 12, 2013 2:34 AM
I live in rented accommodation in the UK. The hot water is scaldingly hot. The radiators burn to touch. The shower temperature is hugely unreliable -- scalding or freezing. The landlord is worried that a plumber will rip him off, based on bad experiences in the past, and unwilling to pay to investigate.
Can you help me understand what's going on? I'd like to put my landlord's mind at rest regarding plumbers, and set his expectations regarding likely diagnoses and solutions -- and hence cost.
I also suspect this situation is wasting energy and hence driving up the cost of heating bills. I'd like to persuade the landlord that fixing it might be a good idea.
Hi all.
First, I fully appreciate that I should most definitely get a plumber. However I'd like to fully understand the situation so I can ensure that appropriate work is carried out. I'd also like to convince the landlord that the situation can be rectified (he prefers to ignore it) and that fixing it may save him money in heating bills.
I'd also like to be able to diagnose what's going on, so if anyone has any debugging tips, that would be greatly appreciated.
Plumbing and heating are typical UK: hot and cold water tanks; mixer tap in the non-electric shower; gas central heating. More details below.
The irritating symptoms of this situation are:
# Hot water that is scaldingly hot -- certainly you can't hold a hand under a running hot water tap. To me, this means that the water is being heated to an unnecessarily high temperature. The temperature seems constant, and unrelated to thermostat settings.
# The central heating radiators are very hot to touch.
# The hot water and central heating only work if *both* are turned on. Neither works in isolation. This doesn't seem right.
# Very unreliable shower temperature. Either scalding or freezing. The mixer tap is certainly touchy, but the water flow is odd. It starts off powerful, then after a minute slows to a trickle of piping hot water. Turning it off then on again restarts this cycle.
# Mixer taps in the ground floor kitchen seem to produce reliable temperature water. The hot is still far, far too hot, but the cold is reliable and so an acceptable temperature mix can be produced. The same cannot be said of bathroom mixer taps upstairs -- the cold water seems to be far too low in pressure.
The hardware:
# Shower upstairs (2nd storey). This is a simple mixer unit with hot and cold pipes. It's not electric. I've noticed that if I take the shower head off the holder and lower it into the bath, the water pressure increases a little.
# Thermostat in the lounge. The plastic dial is broken, but I can get hold of the pin at the centre of the dial and turn it. I can hear it go "click" as I turn it to and fro, which I'd assumed meant it was functional, and detecting temperature accurately. However considering the problems I'm describing, I'm not so sure. It's an old Honeywell, like this.
# Control panel for hot water and central heating timers. This seems to work fine -- if the timers are off, no more hot water is produced. It's an ACL Drayton panel a bit like this, but an older model.
# Boiler? I've no idea where this is. However the gas fire in the lounge makes a dull wooshing noise while the heating is on, so I suspect it's behind there.
# Hot water tank, plus possible thermostat (2nd storey). This is a typical metal cylinder clad with foam insulation. It has some sort of thermostat strapped to it. This was on the outside of the foam cladding, next to a gap in the cladding. I've moved it into that gap, so it's touching the metal surface of the cylinder. This has made no difference to the situation. There's an electric switch next to it, presumably for the immersion heater. I turned this off a few months ago, but it's made no difference.
# Hot water pump for the shower. This is small, noisy unit that takes hot water from the hot water tank, and pumps it into the shower. The pump is above the hot water tank, and the shower is in the room next door. This pump is new -- the previous pump developed a split, probably due to a kink in the piping causing a build-up of back-pressure.
# Cold water tank in the attic (3rd storey).
I think that's everything!
Any thoughts??
:)
Hi all.
First, I fully appreciate that I should most definitely get a plumber. However I'd like to fully understand the situation so I can ensure that appropriate work is carried out. I'd also like to convince the landlord that the situation can be rectified (he prefers to ignore it) and that fixing it may save him money in heating bills.
I'd also like to be able to diagnose what's going on, so if anyone has any debugging tips, that would be greatly appreciated.
Plumbing and heating are typical UK: hot and cold water tanks; mixer tap in the non-electric shower; gas central heating. More details below.
The irritating symptoms of this situation are:
# Hot water that is scaldingly hot -- certainly you can't hold a hand under a running hot water tap. To me, this means that the water is being heated to an unnecessarily high temperature. The temperature seems constant, and unrelated to thermostat settings.
# The central heating radiators are very hot to touch.
# The hot water and central heating only work if *both* are turned on. Neither works in isolation. This doesn't seem right.
# Very unreliable shower temperature. Either scalding or freezing. The mixer tap is certainly touchy, but the water flow is odd. It starts off powerful, then after a minute slows to a trickle of piping hot water. Turning it off then on again restarts this cycle.
# Mixer taps in the ground floor kitchen seem to produce reliable temperature water. The hot is still far, far too hot, but the cold is reliable and so an acceptable temperature mix can be produced. The same cannot be said of bathroom mixer taps upstairs -- the cold water seems to be far too low in pressure.
The hardware:
# Shower upstairs (2nd storey). This is a simple mixer unit with hot and cold pipes. It's not electric. I've noticed that if I take the shower head off the holder and lower it into the bath, the water pressure increases a little.
# Thermostat in the lounge. The plastic dial is broken, but I can get hold of the pin at the centre of the dial and turn it. I can hear it go "click" as I turn it to and fro, which I'd assumed meant it was functional, and detecting temperature accurately. However considering the problems I'm describing, I'm not so sure. It's an old Honeywell, like this.
# Control panel for hot water and central heating timers. This seems to work fine -- if the timers are off, no more hot water is produced. It's an ACL Drayton panel a bit like this, but an older model.
3!qw-,g~~60_35.JPG){kind=link}
# Boiler? I've no idea where this is. However the gas fire in the lounge makes a dull wooshing noise while the heating is on, so I suspect it's behind there.
# Hot water tank, plus possible thermostat (2nd storey). This is a typical metal cylinder clad with foam insulation. It has some sort of thermostat strapped to it. This was on the outside of the foam cladding, next to a gap in the cladding. I've moved it into that gap, so it's touching the metal surface of the cylinder. This has made no difference to the situation. There's an electric switch next to it, presumably for the immersion heater. I turned this off a few months ago, but it's made no difference.
# Hot water pump for the shower. This is small, noisy unit that takes hot water from the hot water tank, and pumps it into the shower. The pump is above the hot water tank, and the shower is in the room next door. This pump is new -- the previous pump developed a split, probably due to a kink in the piping causing a build-up of back-pressure.
# Cold water tank in the attic (3rd storey).
I think that's everything!
Any thoughts??
:)
Firstly, if you get scalded by burning water from a duff heating system/thermostat, your landlord is liable. Your landlord probably is reluctant because of the cost of the plumber and also because you bear the heating bills. This is not acceptable, and a quick call to the CAB should give you enough legalese to make that clear to your landlord, in writing.
Modern boilers are typically situated against an outside wall because it makes installing the flue easier and mitigates the risk of an issues with the flue. Older boilers need a flue, or may be open vented. Look for the flue outside your property. If you can't find one, you've probably got an open vented back boiler, which means it is in your chimney behind your gas fire, as you suspect. Back boilers used to be the standard, but are now rarely fitted.
By law, gas boilers must be inspected each year by a certified engineer. Ask your landlord when this last occurred. This is absolutely critical. If your landlord dicks about on this question they are breaking the law.
I suspect your landlord isn't calling the heating engineer because they know that your thermostats need replacing, the boiler is old (quoted lifespan of a boiler is 15 years, although they can and do last longer) and an engineer is highly likely to recommend a new boiler at a cost of £2k because modern gas boilers are much better, cheaper and safer and practices have moved on. This is not the same as being ripped off. If you were an owner-occupier you'd go for it because it would bring down your heating bills by £250 or so a year. Your back boiler should have an adjustable thermostat. It should be behind your gas fire. Take a look.
In the event that doesn't work, either twist your landlord's arm or consult the CAB. At any rate, you should definitely know if the proper gas inspection has been done.
Apart from that, I can't diagnose from here, nor am I a heating expert. Note, the HSE has a warning out for immersion heaters, one of the warning signs is excessively hot water.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:17 AM on April 12, 2013
Modern boilers are typically situated against an outside wall because it makes installing the flue easier and mitigates the risk of an issues with the flue. Older boilers need a flue, or may be open vented. Look for the flue outside your property. If you can't find one, you've probably got an open vented back boiler, which means it is in your chimney behind your gas fire, as you suspect. Back boilers used to be the standard, but are now rarely fitted.
By law, gas boilers must be inspected each year by a certified engineer. Ask your landlord when this last occurred. This is absolutely critical. If your landlord dicks about on this question they are breaking the law.
I suspect your landlord isn't calling the heating engineer because they know that your thermostats need replacing, the boiler is old (quoted lifespan of a boiler is 15 years, although they can and do last longer) and an engineer is highly likely to recommend a new boiler at a cost of £2k because modern gas boilers are much better, cheaper and safer and practices have moved on. This is not the same as being ripped off. If you were an owner-occupier you'd go for it because it would bring down your heating bills by £250 or so a year. Your back boiler should have an adjustable thermostat. It should be behind your gas fire. Take a look.
In the event that doesn't work, either twist your landlord's arm or consult the CAB. At any rate, you should definitely know if the proper gas inspection has been done.
Apart from that, I can't diagnose from here, nor am I a heating expert. Note, the HSE has a warning out for immersion heaters, one of the warning signs is excessively hot water.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:17 AM on April 12, 2013
The landlord is worried that a plumber will rip him off, based on bad experiences in the past
This is not really your problem.
posted by empath at 3:17 AM on April 12, 2013
This is not really your problem.
posted by empath at 3:17 AM on April 12, 2013
Sounds to me like multiple problems resulting from patching up an old system. Your landlord needs to bite the bullet and get everything serviced and brought up to modern standards, but would obviously rather just patch things up when they go pear-shaped. At the very least I'd want my landlord to get the thermostats working and install TRVs on the radiators.
Your landlord needs to get a plumber involved. Maybe you could help him by getting some recommendations - ask everyone you know who might have dealt with any plumbers in your area. There's a natural tendency to assume that all plumbers will rip you off, but my experience is that most do a good job and try to be competitive. Or if personal recommendations aren't an option, try a site like Rated People.
posted by pipeski at 3:25 AM on April 12, 2013
Your landlord needs to get a plumber involved. Maybe you could help him by getting some recommendations - ask everyone you know who might have dealt with any plumbers in your area. There's a natural tendency to assume that all plumbers will rip you off, but my experience is that most do a good job and try to be competitive. Or if personal recommendations aren't an option, try a site like Rated People.
posted by pipeski at 3:25 AM on April 12, 2013
Oh hello, you could be me 5 years ago. The flat I owned had pretty much exactly the same symptoms you are describing. Especially the having the turn the central heating on to get the water temperature right - classic boiler thermostat problems.
I suffered through but when I put the place up for rent I knew I had to do something. Called in a plumber and had to get the whole boiler replaced. It cost over 2000gbp but as a landlord that is his responsibility and he has to suck it up (also if it's a gas boiler he must show the safety certificate).
(Man, I'm still annoyed at myself that I didn't fix it earlier. Scolding/freezing showers are the worst).
posted by atlantica at 3:34 AM on April 12, 2013
I suffered through but when I put the place up for rent I knew I had to do something. Called in a plumber and had to get the whole boiler replaced. It cost over 2000gbp but as a landlord that is his responsibility and he has to suck it up (also if it's a gas boiler he must show the safety certificate).
(Man, I'm still annoyed at myself that I didn't fix it earlier. Scolding/freezing showers are the worst).
posted by atlantica at 3:34 AM on April 12, 2013
Seconding that this is the landlord's issue to sort out and you need to make sure he knows he has to do it. Find your tenancy agreement and look for anything about keeping heating/water systems in good repair. Quote that back at him. Ask when the boiler was last inspected.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:39 AM on April 12, 2013
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:39 AM on April 12, 2013
A bit more info might yield more specific advice:
You refer to "the boiler", but unless UK systems are very different from US systems, your heating system is completely separate from your hot (tap) water system, i.e., you should have 2 boilers.
Do you have hot water heat or steam heat? It's normal for steam radiators to be very hot to the touch.
EDIT: just noticed the reference to "hot water tank", so I'm assuming that this is in addition to the boiler.
posted by she's not there at 3:47 AM on April 12, 2013
You refer to "the boiler", but unless UK systems are very different from US systems, your heating system is completely separate from your hot (tap) water system, i.e., you should have 2 boilers.
Do you have hot water heat or steam heat? It's normal for steam radiators to be very hot to the touch.
EDIT: just noticed the reference to "hot water tank", so I'm assuming that this is in addition to the boiler.
posted by she's not there at 3:47 AM on April 12, 2013
The hot water is excessively hot. That's why your shower temp is unadjustable (either freezing or scalding.) The shower should have an anti-scald valve because you can get seriously hurt by excessively hot water.
This is validated by your observation that the radiators are too hot to the touch. It sounds like a simple failure of the thermocouple in the hot water heater and/or an excessively high temperate.
How you deal with the politics is your problem, but the tech is brain dead simple to any plumber in the world, including your locale. LL needs to fix. Over here, this would be the start of a story that leads to a pre-trial settlement.
posted by FauxScot at 3:50 AM on April 12, 2013
This is validated by your observation that the radiators are too hot to the touch. It sounds like a simple failure of the thermocouple in the hot water heater and/or an excessively high temperate.
How you deal with the politics is your problem, but the tech is brain dead simple to any plumber in the world, including your locale. LL needs to fix. Over here, this would be the start of a story that leads to a pre-trial settlement.
posted by FauxScot at 3:50 AM on April 12, 2013
You refer to "the boiler", but unless UK systems are very different from US systems, your heating system is completely separate from your hot (tap) water system, i.e., you should have 2 boilers.
In many UK homes, you actually only have one boiler. Our gas-powered boiler heats water for both the central heating system and the hot water for the taps.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:13 AM on April 12, 2013
In many UK homes, you actually only have one boiler. Our gas-powered boiler heats water for both the central heating system and the hot water for the taps.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:13 AM on April 12, 2013
As already noted, your landlord needs to call a pro. Below is my additional 2 cents regarding helping you get a handle on your issues. Note: IANAP, but I was raised by one (in the US) and I've owned homes with both hot water and steam heat.
# Hot water that is scaldingly hot ..
It seems you already know the thermostat isn't working. In the US, hot water tanks have a lifespan of about 12 years - how old is your tank? BTW - water temp above 120 F is dangerous for kids and people with sensitive skin.
# The central heating radiators are very hot to touch.
This is normal for steam heat, i.e., radiators in a properly functioning system may burn sensitive skin. In contrast, hot water systems heat water to about 180 F.
If your landlord is neglecting a steam system, it's a safe bet that the gas bills are unnecessarily high.
# The hot water and central heating only work if *both* are turned on. Neither works in isolation. This doesn't seem right.
This is a real puzzler because the heating system is separate from the hot water system. Perhaps this some glitch in the the gas supply lines?
# Very unreliable shower temperature.
# Mixer taps in the ground floor kitchen seem to produce reliable temperature water. ... The same cannot be said of bathroom mixer taps upstairs -- the cold water seems to be far too low in pressure.
Based on what I've just learned via google, the kitchen taps are probably connected directly to the house water supply, rather than the cold water tank, which explains the difference in performance. The cold water tank likely supplies your shower and toilet—do you lose cold water pressure in the shower when the toilet is flushed?
# Thermostat in the lounge. The plastic dial is broken, but I can get hold of the pin at the centre of the dial and turn it. I can hear it go "click" as I turn it to and fro, which I'd assumed meant it was functional, and detecting temperature accurately. However considering the problems I'm describing, I'm not so sure. It's an old Honeywell, like this.
That Honeywell cycles the boiler based on the temp detected at the thermostat, but it has nothing to do with the temp of the water in the radiator—that is controlled by the boiler. (This assumes hot water, rather than steam, heat.)
# Boiler? I've no idea where this is. However the gas fire in the lounge makes a dull wooshing noise while the heating is on, so I suspect it's behind there.
Can you find and follow your gas supply line?
Also, check out heatinghelp.com—those folks know all there is to know re hot water and steam heat.
posted by she's not there at 5:18 AM on April 12, 2013
# Hot water that is scaldingly hot ..
It seems you already know the thermostat isn't working. In the US, hot water tanks have a lifespan of about 12 years - how old is your tank? BTW - water temp above 120 F is dangerous for kids and people with sensitive skin.
# The central heating radiators are very hot to touch.
This is normal for steam heat, i.e., radiators in a properly functioning system may burn sensitive skin. In contrast, hot water systems heat water to about 180 F.
If your landlord is neglecting a steam system, it's a safe bet that the gas bills are unnecessarily high.
# The hot water and central heating only work if *both* are turned on. Neither works in isolation. This doesn't seem right.
This is a real puzzler because the heating system is separate from the hot water system. Perhaps this some glitch in the the gas supply lines?
# Very unreliable shower temperature.
# Mixer taps in the ground floor kitchen seem to produce reliable temperature water. ... The same cannot be said of bathroom mixer taps upstairs -- the cold water seems to be far too low in pressure.
Based on what I've just learned via google, the kitchen taps are probably connected directly to the house water supply, rather than the cold water tank, which explains the difference in performance. The cold water tank likely supplies your shower and toilet—do you lose cold water pressure in the shower when the toilet is flushed?
# Thermostat in the lounge. The plastic dial is broken, but I can get hold of the pin at the centre of the dial and turn it. I can hear it go "click" as I turn it to and fro, which I'd assumed meant it was functional, and detecting temperature accurately. However considering the problems I'm describing, I'm not so sure. It's an old Honeywell, like this.
That Honeywell cycles the boiler based on the temp detected at the thermostat, but it has nothing to do with the temp of the water in the radiator—that is controlled by the boiler. (This assumes hot water, rather than steam, heat.)
# Boiler? I've no idea where this is. However the gas fire in the lounge makes a dull wooshing noise while the heating is on, so I suspect it's behind there.
Can you find and follow your gas supply line?
Also, check out heatinghelp.com—those folks know all there is to know re hot water and steam heat.
posted by she's not there at 5:18 AM on April 12, 2013
Thanks for all the info!
The landlord isn't a dick, he's a very nice guy I've known for many years. However, he is new to the landlording game. He and I are both working through the issues this throws up :) We're both well aware of legality, and contract details. Realistically, he's going to spend the minimum amount (of course) and he's going to want to shop around for a cheap and reputable plumber, while ensuring safety and legality. He lives here too, he won't want anything unsafe.
I simply want to facilitate this happening quickly, and a clear picture of the work that needs doing (or a way of diagnosing likely candidates for repair) will give he and I confidence that we know what to do.
Does anyone have any thoughts about the cold water pressure? Is there anything I can do to investigate if this is a contributing factor to the upstairs mixer-taps temperature issues? I don't really know where to start. Is there a blockage somewhere? Air-lock in a radiator....?? There's nothing leaking.
Specific comments:
@Gilgongo: Carbon monoxide detector, good call. I'll also talk to him about his legal responsibilities, which I'm sure he's aware of.
@she's not there: I suspect US and UK systems are, indeed, very different. One single boiler is the norm over here as I understand it, and yep that's for both heating and hot water in small domestic residences. I've never heard of steam radiators.
@FauxScot: Wow, I am certainly nowhere near thinking about pre-trial settlements but thanks for the info about the thermocouple, and reassurance that the hot water temperature at least is probably a simple problem to fix.
Thanks again everyone.
posted by ajp at 5:20 AM on April 12, 2013
The landlord isn't a dick, he's a very nice guy I've known for many years. However, he is new to the landlording game. He and I are both working through the issues this throws up :) We're both well aware of legality, and contract details. Realistically, he's going to spend the minimum amount (of course) and he's going to want to shop around for a cheap and reputable plumber, while ensuring safety and legality. He lives here too, he won't want anything unsafe.
I simply want to facilitate this happening quickly, and a clear picture of the work that needs doing (or a way of diagnosing likely candidates for repair) will give he and I confidence that we know what to do.
Does anyone have any thoughts about the cold water pressure? Is there anything I can do to investigate if this is a contributing factor to the upstairs mixer-taps temperature issues? I don't really know where to start. Is there a blockage somewhere? Air-lock in a radiator....?? There's nothing leaking.
Specific comments:
@Gilgongo: Carbon monoxide detector, good call. I'll also talk to him about his legal responsibilities, which I'm sure he's aware of.
@she's not there: I suspect US and UK systems are, indeed, very different. One single boiler is the norm over here as I understand it, and yep that's for both heating and hot water in small domestic residences. I've never heard of steam radiators.
@FauxScot: Wow, I am certainly nowhere near thinking about pre-trial settlements but thanks for the info about the thermocouple, and reassurance that the hot water temperature at least is probably a simple problem to fix.
Thanks again everyone.
posted by ajp at 5:20 AM on April 12, 2013
Does anyone have any thoughts about the cold water pressure?
What are the supply pipes made of -- copper, plastic, galvanized iron?
posted by jon1270 at 5:37 AM on April 12, 2013
What are the supply pipes made of -- copper, plastic, galvanized iron?
posted by jon1270 at 5:37 AM on April 12, 2013
Call British Gas and get details for three plumbers. Get all three to come in and give you repair quotes. At least two of the three should say similar things about what the issues are. That's all you can do because you know nothing about plumbing, down to where the boiler even is in this house or if it is a conventional or combi boiler. That is unfortunate because the scalding water is very likely simply the boiler set too high, which is yes wasting enormous energy. The plumber visits will be educational for your household.
And no disrespect to our American friends but they are not going to be that useful in troubleshooting here.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:44 AM on April 12, 2013
And no disrespect to our American friends but they are not going to be that useful in troubleshooting here.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:44 AM on April 12, 2013
I used to use a cheap guy, but I found that using a licensed plumber from a nationally known firm was a better way to go. Sure the prices were a bit higher, but the pros know what they're doing and there's no "Well, let's use some spit and bailing wire here, and some bubble gum there, it should hold for a while," shit. They come in, the quote, they do the work, it takes exactly as long as they quote, there are no surprises once they get started. If they quote $200 to fix a thermostat, that's what it costs.
So hire a nationally known plumber and bite the bullet. You won't regret it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:45 AM on April 12, 2013
So hire a nationally known plumber and bite the bullet. You won't regret it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:45 AM on April 12, 2013
@she's not there -- goodness, this looks like a great starting point..!
"It seems you already know the thermostat isn't working."
Yep, that's my suspicion.
"In the US, hot water tanks have a lifespan of about 12 years - how old is your tank?"
Excellent question, no idea, I'll find out.
"If your landlord is neglecting a steam system, it's a safe bet that the gas bills are unnecessarily high."
My thoughts exactly. I'm hoping this will help him feel better about the cost of a plumber to fix it all.
# The hot water and central heating only work if *both* are turned on. Neither works in isolation. This doesn't seem right.
"This is a real puzzler because the heating system is separate from the hot water system. Perhaps this some glitch in the the gas supply lines?"
I'm not sure about the reasoning here. Why a fault with the gas supply? As far as I know, the gas supply is intact and functioning -- the boiler clearly heats water, the gas fire works. But yep -- it's a puzzler to me too.
In more detail -- I noticed over winter that the radiators were cold unless the hot water was being heated. I've not actually tested whether the reverse is true, the hot water only working if the heating is on. Debugging this would take a solid few hours -- emptying the hot water tank, running the hot water and the heating each in isolation for long enough to note if one works without the other. Is this exercise even going help me work out what the issues are?
"Based on what I've just learned via google the kitchen taps are probably connected directly to the house water supply, rather than the cold water tank, which explains the difference in performance. The cold water tank likely supplies your shower and toilet—do you lose cold water pressure in the shower when the toilet is flushed?
Yep, I suspected similar. I've tried this a few months ago but idly, before this issue really started bugging me. I don't recall the outcome. I'll try again when I'm home later. This test would simply confirm the plumbing of the shower -- so might highlight an issue with cold water pressure...?
"That Honeywell cycles the boiler based on the temp detected at the thermostat, but it has nothing to do with the temp of the water in the radiator—that is controlled by the boiler.
Let me see if I understand this. The Honeywell thermostat (if it's working) detects when the ambient temperature is below its setting, and signals the boiler to turn on. Presumably it also signals a central heating pump to turn on, sending heated water into the radiators? However the Honeywell thermostat does NOT dictate the temperature of heated water. That is set elsewhere -- at the boiler itself?
The ACL Drayton control panel has no settings for temperature -- neither hot water, nor central heating.
The hot water tank is the only hot water tank -- and it also has no temperature settings. It has some ancient device strapped to it, that looks like a thermostat. But there's no dial on it.
Hmm.
"Can you find and follow your gas supply line?"
Interesting question. I'll check later.
"Also, check out heatinghelp.com—those folks know all there is to know re hot water and steam heat."
Thanks for the recommendation, and for all the suggestions.
posted by ajp at 5:54 AM on April 12, 2013
"It seems you already know the thermostat isn't working."
Yep, that's my suspicion.
"In the US, hot water tanks have a lifespan of about 12 years - how old is your tank?"
Excellent question, no idea, I'll find out.
"If your landlord is neglecting a steam system, it's a safe bet that the gas bills are unnecessarily high."
My thoughts exactly. I'm hoping this will help him feel better about the cost of a plumber to fix it all.
# The hot water and central heating only work if *both* are turned on. Neither works in isolation. This doesn't seem right.
"This is a real puzzler because the heating system is separate from the hot water system. Perhaps this some glitch in the the gas supply lines?"
I'm not sure about the reasoning here. Why a fault with the gas supply? As far as I know, the gas supply is intact and functioning -- the boiler clearly heats water, the gas fire works. But yep -- it's a puzzler to me too.
In more detail -- I noticed over winter that the radiators were cold unless the hot water was being heated. I've not actually tested whether the reverse is true, the hot water only working if the heating is on. Debugging this would take a solid few hours -- emptying the hot water tank, running the hot water and the heating each in isolation for long enough to note if one works without the other. Is this exercise even going help me work out what the issues are?
"Based on what I've just learned via google the kitchen taps are probably connected directly to the house water supply, rather than the cold water tank, which explains the difference in performance. The cold water tank likely supplies your shower and toilet—do you lose cold water pressure in the shower when the toilet is flushed?
Yep, I suspected similar. I've tried this a few months ago but idly, before this issue really started bugging me. I don't recall the outcome. I'll try again when I'm home later. This test would simply confirm the plumbing of the shower -- so might highlight an issue with cold water pressure...?
"That Honeywell cycles the boiler based on the temp detected at the thermostat, but it has nothing to do with the temp of the water in the radiator—that is controlled by the boiler.
Let me see if I understand this. The Honeywell thermostat (if it's working) detects when the ambient temperature is below its setting, and signals the boiler to turn on. Presumably it also signals a central heating pump to turn on, sending heated water into the radiators? However the Honeywell thermostat does NOT dictate the temperature of heated water. That is set elsewhere -- at the boiler itself?
The ACL Drayton control panel has no settings for temperature -- neither hot water, nor central heating.
The hot water tank is the only hot water tank -- and it also has no temperature settings. It has some ancient device strapped to it, that looks like a thermostat. But there's no dial on it.
Hmm.
"Can you find and follow your gas supply line?"
Interesting question. I'll check later.
"Also, check out heatinghelp.com—those folks know all there is to know re hot water and steam heat."
Thanks for the recommendation, and for all the suggestions.
posted by ajp at 5:54 AM on April 12, 2013
Just an FYI. Because of the way they are compensated, British Gas engineers will, near as certainty, recommend a new boiler.
The back boiler should have its own thermostat that controls the temperature the water is heated to.
Most boilers, even if they are old, have a separate setting for heating and hot water. If you have to have both switched on for one to work, the most likely fault is the switch itself IMHO. Take the actual plastic switch off and see what the metal bit underneath is pointing to.
Your profile indicates you are in Camden. In the event you are in west/south London I can thoroughly recommend WPJ Heating. I've used them for heating and plumbing. I once also rang them up to see if they had expanded into electricals and they hadn't but recommended a guy who fixed the issue where two others had failed before him.
I've also, in other places, used Pimlico Plumbers and PGS. Both turned up when they said they would and did good jobs. But they are £90/hour and then add VAT.
posted by MuffinMan at 6:23 AM on April 12, 2013
The back boiler should have its own thermostat that controls the temperature the water is heated to.
Most boilers, even if they are old, have a separate setting for heating and hot water. If you have to have both switched on for one to work, the most likely fault is the switch itself IMHO. Take the actual plastic switch off and see what the metal bit underneath is pointing to.
Your profile indicates you are in Camden. In the event you are in west/south London I can thoroughly recommend WPJ Heating. I've used them for heating and plumbing. I once also rang them up to see if they had expanded into electricals and they hadn't but recommended a guy who fixed the issue where two others had failed before him.
I've also, in other places, used Pimlico Plumbers and PGS. Both turned up when they said they would and did good jobs. But they are £90/hour and then add VAT.
posted by MuffinMan at 6:23 AM on April 12, 2013
I'm not sure about the reasoning here. Why a fault with the gas supply? Wild-ass guess, based on my apparently erroneous assumption that both the hot water tank and the boiler were heated by gas.
However the Honeywell thermostat does NOT dictate the temperature of heated water. That is set elsewhere -- at the boiler itself? That's been my experience. Lowering the temp would mean that the boiler runs longer to bring the house up to the thermostat setting, of course. However, given what I've learned here, I'm not confident that this will apply with your system.
Plumbworld may be more useful to you than heatinghelp.com. The link takes you to an illustration of 2 types of hot water tanks, neither of which has a thermostat.
At this point, I'm lost. I can't figure out a one boiler could serve the heating system and provide hot tap water—in the US, there's about a 50 degree difference between the temp of the water in the heating system and the temp of hot water at the tap.
posted by she's not there at 6:38 AM on April 12, 2013
However the Honeywell thermostat does NOT dictate the temperature of heated water. That is set elsewhere -- at the boiler itself? That's been my experience. Lowering the temp would mean that the boiler runs longer to bring the house up to the thermostat setting, of course. However, given what I've learned here, I'm not confident that this will apply with your system.
Plumbworld may be more useful to you than heatinghelp.com. The link takes you to an illustration of 2 types of hot water tanks, neither of which has a thermostat.
At this point, I'm lost. I can't figure out a one boiler could serve the heating system and provide hot tap water—in the US, there's about a 50 degree difference between the temp of the water in the heating system and the temp of hot water at the tap.
posted by she's not there at 6:38 AM on April 12, 2013
I can't figure out a one boiler could serve the heating system and provide hot tap water
Combi boilers.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:52 AM on April 12, 2013
Combi boilers.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:52 AM on April 12, 2013
With the low cold water pressure, you probably should poke your head into the attic and check the integrity of your water tank. It's probably nothing, but there are horror stories of old tanks becoming open to the environment, and upon closer inspection there's a dead pigeon decomposing on the bottom.
posted by penguinicity at 7:07 AM on April 12, 2013
posted by penguinicity at 7:07 AM on April 12, 2013
I can't figure out a one boiler could serve the heating system and provide hot tap water
Another system in many UK homes, different from combi boilers, has the boiler pumping hot water through a closed loop that heats the water tank via a heat exchanger. In other words, the boiler water doesn't directly come out of the tap. Instead it heats a "radiator" inside the hot water tank. The advantage of this system is that the tank then serves as a store of heat if you're e.g. turning the central heat off during the day and on at night.
posted by penguinicity at 7:11 AM on April 12, 2013
Another system in many UK homes, different from combi boilers, has the boiler pumping hot water through a closed loop that heats the water tank via a heat exchanger. In other words, the boiler water doesn't directly come out of the tap. Instead it heats a "radiator" inside the hot water tank. The advantage of this system is that the tank then serves as a store of heat if you're e.g. turning the central heat off during the day and on at night.
posted by penguinicity at 7:11 AM on April 12, 2013
Hi again.
Wow, excellent comments all round.
@she's not there -- top marks for effort, especially considering you're not even in the UK :) Like you, I am somewhat stumped regarding thermostats in this situation. I very much appreciate your thoughts, and I shall trace all piping/supply conduits.
Yep the difference in heating water temp and tap water temp is a major problem in my situation -- they're both way too hot.
My house appears to use a boiler in the chimney flu, behind the gas fire, and a hot water tank. The tank appears to be a typical heat-exchange unit (typical for the UK anyway) which works as described by penguinicity -- the "indirect cylinder" from the link above. I'm concerned that the boiler is working way harder than necessary. To me, this suggests that a feedback mechanism appears to be broken. But which feedback mechanism? Should there be a thermostat on the hot water tank, telling the boiler to switch off? Possibly not -- if the "indirect cylinder" produces hot water as byproduct of the central heating.
This makes me think that there will be only one thermostat, and one temperature control. The temp control will set the central heating temperature (the hot tap water being a byproduct of the heat exchange, and stored in the hot water tank). The thermostat will simply switch off the boiler once the ambient temperature reaches the target.
This suggests to me that the thermostat is broken, and that I need to find the temp control on the boiler!!
Excellent -- I'm sensing some resolution :) And now I'm getting the feeling that this might be a cheap job: a replacement thermostat, and possibly nothing else. If I can find the boiler temp control, and can set it, then the only remaining issue is the cold water pressure. I may live with that being low if the hot water can be reduced to a tolerable constant temperature.
I'm still unsure why the hot water and central heating only seem to work together. I'm going to have to debug this when I'm home and have a spare couple of hours to tinker with it.
@jon1270 Which pipes, those from the cold water tank? Out of curiosity, what difference would it make? Every exposed pipe I've found has been copper, other than those from the hot water tank to the shower pump. They're flexible but very sturdy, some sort of fibre-reinforced rubber I'd guess. And they're new (a few months), and not kinked or leaking.
@penguinicity Yep I'll have a look at the cold water tank. I don't suspect leaking, but a nose around the tank can't hurt. Do you have any particular suspicions? What else could cause low cold water pressure, other than simple deficiency in gravity??
posted by ajp at 7:56 AM on April 12, 2013
Wow, excellent comments all round.
@she's not there -- top marks for effort, especially considering you're not even in the UK :) Like you, I am somewhat stumped regarding thermostats in this situation. I very much appreciate your thoughts, and I shall trace all piping/supply conduits.
Yep the difference in heating water temp and tap water temp is a major problem in my situation -- they're both way too hot.
My house appears to use a boiler in the chimney flu, behind the gas fire, and a hot water tank. The tank appears to be a typical heat-exchange unit (typical for the UK anyway) which works as described by penguinicity -- the "indirect cylinder" from the link above. I'm concerned that the boiler is working way harder than necessary. To me, this suggests that a feedback mechanism appears to be broken. But which feedback mechanism? Should there be a thermostat on the hot water tank, telling the boiler to switch off? Possibly not -- if the "indirect cylinder" produces hot water as byproduct of the central heating.
This makes me think that there will be only one thermostat, and one temperature control. The temp control will set the central heating temperature (the hot tap water being a byproduct of the heat exchange, and stored in the hot water tank). The thermostat will simply switch off the boiler once the ambient temperature reaches the target.
This suggests to me that the thermostat is broken, and that I need to find the temp control on the boiler!!
Excellent -- I'm sensing some resolution :) And now I'm getting the feeling that this might be a cheap job: a replacement thermostat, and possibly nothing else. If I can find the boiler temp control, and can set it, then the only remaining issue is the cold water pressure. I may live with that being low if the hot water can be reduced to a tolerable constant temperature.
I'm still unsure why the hot water and central heating only seem to work together. I'm going to have to debug this when I'm home and have a spare couple of hours to tinker with it.
@jon1270 Which pipes, those from the cold water tank? Out of curiosity, what difference would it make? Every exposed pipe I've found has been copper, other than those from the hot water tank to the shower pump. They're flexible but very sturdy, some sort of fibre-reinforced rubber I'd guess. And they're new (a few months), and not kinked or leaking.
@penguinicity Yep I'll have a look at the cold water tank. I don't suspect leaking, but a nose around the tank can't hurt. Do you have any particular suspicions? What else could cause low cold water pressure, other than simple deficiency in gravity??
posted by ajp at 7:56 AM on April 12, 2013
"Hot water and central heating only work together" -- meaning that there are separate controls for both on the Drayton control panel, but that unless both are "on", neither seems to be working.
posted by ajp at 8:26 AM on April 12, 2013
posted by ajp at 8:26 AM on April 12, 2013
Okay I'm going to spend some time watching these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDIYDoctor/videos?query=boiler
Thinking through all the components in the system and getting some thoughts on here gave me a clearer notion of what to look for in Google and YouTube. In addition to all the above, I'm going to find the diverting valve; hot water tank thermostat; cold feed pipe and expansion tank. Fun times.
If I get the chance to look into things over the next few days, I may report back on findings in case it's useful for anyone who finds this question another time.
Apparently there may be temp controls for the back-boiler on the gas fire somewhere. I'll have a good look later when I get home. I've never noticed them; apparently they may be behind a cover that can be removed.
posted by ajp at 9:28 AM on April 12, 2013
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDIYDoctor/videos?query=boiler
Thinking through all the components in the system and getting some thoughts on here gave me a clearer notion of what to look for in Google and YouTube. In addition to all the above, I'm going to find the diverting valve; hot water tank thermostat; cold feed pipe and expansion tank. Fun times.
If I get the chance to look into things over the next few days, I may report back on findings in case it's useful for anyone who finds this question another time.
Apparently there may be temp controls for the back-boiler on the gas fire somewhere. I'll have a good look later when I get home. I've never noticed them; apparently they may be behind a cover that can be removed.
posted by ajp at 9:28 AM on April 12, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
However, it sounds like there is a significant problem, and that your heating system is (very) un-maintained. This puts you at significant risk and your landlord has a legal responsibility to take immediate action.
You should be able to see the annual certificate of gas safety. I strongly suspect, based on your landlord's reluctance to spend money on a plumber, that your gas equipment has not been checked. Regardless of other problems it should be. Any rented property must have a check every year.
You should go out now (today) and buy a carbon monoxide detector. You can buy one from most DIY shops - here's one from B&Q for about £20. One of these saved my life when I was living in rented acomodation - it could save yours.
posted by Gilgongo at 2:54 AM on April 12, 2013