Personal loan gone bad - what to do
February 9, 2013 8:04 PM Subscribe
I've just found out from my wife that she lent a party $2k who was wanting money for their day trading enterprise. I don't know the details of the arrangement, all I know is that the money never came back, my wife is mortified and been unable to tell me this until now.
She was involved with a church at the time, and met this person there. He's still heavily involved with the church as I can see his posts on their Facebook page. This debt is between one and two years old at this point.
So, while I initially started to lose my well being about this, I'm now looking at this with some perspective. I can contact the church and let them know this person's been exploiting his relationship with my wife and possibly others to fund his dicey trading schemes. It may be I should take him to small claims court in order to get the tax write-off from this loss. Then there's the initial impulse to take a personal confrontation approach. That's not really on the menu, but certainly I've had the 'horse head in the bed' fantasy already.
Okay, on the spiritual level, this deal's done. No one forced my wife to make this agreement, the money's gone, it's not coming back and no amount of hand wringing and interpersonal hassling will change that. I'm definitely concerned that this person has exploited someone in order to avoid the risk their enterprise entailed and should not be allowed to get away with that without some form of censure or payment. For example, I could post on this church's Facebook a pithy comment about this scenario. Perhaps I should let sleeping dogs lie. What sayeth the hive-mind?
She was involved with a church at the time, and met this person there. He's still heavily involved with the church as I can see his posts on their Facebook page. This debt is between one and two years old at this point.
So, while I initially started to lose my well being about this, I'm now looking at this with some perspective. I can contact the church and let them know this person's been exploiting his relationship with my wife and possibly others to fund his dicey trading schemes. It may be I should take him to small claims court in order to get the tax write-off from this loss. Then there's the initial impulse to take a personal confrontation approach. That's not really on the menu, but certainly I've had the 'horse head in the bed' fantasy already.
Okay, on the spiritual level, this deal's done. No one forced my wife to make this agreement, the money's gone, it's not coming back and no amount of hand wringing and interpersonal hassling will change that. I'm definitely concerned that this person has exploited someone in order to avoid the risk their enterprise entailed and should not be allowed to get away with that without some form of censure or payment. For example, I could post on this church's Facebook a pithy comment about this scenario. Perhaps I should let sleeping dogs lie. What sayeth the hive-mind?
Response by poster: Yes, mine too. That's exactly how I look at it, never loan money you are not willing to lose or give away.
posted by diode at 8:09 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by diode at 8:09 PM on February 9, 2013
I don't see that there has been any effort made to recover the money, or that he has refused to repay it. Why not send him a letter asking for a repayment of the loan.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to send something to the church leadership saying this guy exploited your family and you're worried he may do it someone else.
posted by pseudonick at 8:14 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
It wouldn't be unreasonable to send something to the church leadership saying this guy exploited your family and you're worried he may do it someone else.
posted by pseudonick at 8:14 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Here's what you should do, in order.
Go to see this person with your wife and talk to him about paying the loan back. If he promises to pay it back, make him put his promise and his payment schedule in writing. If he then pays it back, problem solved.
If he refuses to pay it back outright, or says he will but won't sign an IOU, or does sign an IOU and then doesn't honour it, you look into small claims court.
And if this man won't repay the loan of his own accord when you ask him, then you have a quiet word with the church officials and tell them about the situation, and ask them to be on their guard about him so they can take steps to protect others from him, or perhaps speak to him about his behaviour. Do not post a note on any Facebook page and do not badmouth him to others who know him. Public shaming and stirring up some public brouhahaha is no way to resolve problems.
posted by orange swan at 8:17 PM on February 9, 2013 [30 favorites]
Go to see this person with your wife and talk to him about paying the loan back. If he promises to pay it back, make him put his promise and his payment schedule in writing. If he then pays it back, problem solved.
If he refuses to pay it back outright, or says he will but won't sign an IOU, or does sign an IOU and then doesn't honour it, you look into small claims court.
And if this man won't repay the loan of his own accord when you ask him, then you have a quiet word with the church officials and tell them about the situation, and ask them to be on their guard about him so they can take steps to protect others from him, or perhaps speak to him about his behaviour. Do not post a note on any Facebook page and do not badmouth him to others who know him. Public shaming and stirring up some public brouhahaha is no way to resolve problems.
posted by orange swan at 8:17 PM on February 9, 2013 [30 favorites]
Take it as a lesson.
I lost, exactly, $2000 [which was worth a lot more back then, in both meanings] when I was 16 from something like this with someone who I thought was a friend (who ended up burglering my home in-between giving him the money and when I was supposed to get a return).
But don't "over-learn" and not altruistically help out friends and those in need.
But, yeah, do have a private conversation with your church leader - they may have heard other accounts of this shyster's activities, or at least this may make someone else aware of a potential pattern of activity.
I still occasionally feel poorly about an incident more than half a lifetime ago, so, I'd be gentle to your wife about this. No need to potentially add to any negative feelings she already probably is suffering right now.
I have a tiny little bit of levity when recounting this experience because the person in question continued his life of petty-ish crime and as a consequence has been fitted for and has worn prison dentures out of necessity for several stretches of his life.
posted by porpoise at 8:30 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I lost, exactly, $2000 [which was worth a lot more back then, in both meanings] when I was 16 from something like this with someone who I thought was a friend (who ended up burglering my home in-between giving him the money and when I was supposed to get a return).
But don't "over-learn" and not altruistically help out friends and those in need.
But, yeah, do have a private conversation with your church leader - they may have heard other accounts of this shyster's activities, or at least this may make someone else aware of a potential pattern of activity.
I still occasionally feel poorly about an incident more than half a lifetime ago, so, I'd be gentle to your wife about this. No need to potentially add to any negative feelings she already probably is suffering right now.
I have a tiny little bit of levity when recounting this experience because the person in question continued his life of petty-ish crime and as a consequence has been fitted for and has worn prison dentures out of necessity for several stretches of his life.
posted by porpoise at 8:30 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Does your wife actually want or need your intervention/help/involvement in this matter? (It's not clear from your post that she does.) Or are you being outraged on her (or your) behalf and feeling as if you simply have to do something?
Unless your wife actually wants to pursue this, I'd suggest that you stay out of it. It's her lesson, and the fact that she delayed so long in telling you suggests to me that she felt embarassed about it or was concerned about how you might react/overreact to the news of the debt.
If she wants to pursue recovering her money, it seems to me that first contacting the debtor (perhaps via mail, if in person seems too confrontational to your wife) to remind him of the debt and that repayment is expected would be the way to go. Formally give the person the opportunity to make good. If he doesn't repay, then your wife can pursue other options,like small claims court, or contacting the church officials and warning them about this person.
posted by skye.dancer at 8:56 PM on February 9, 2013
Unless your wife actually wants to pursue this, I'd suggest that you stay out of it. It's her lesson, and the fact that she delayed so long in telling you suggests to me that she felt embarassed about it or was concerned about how you might react/overreact to the news of the debt.
If she wants to pursue recovering her money, it seems to me that first contacting the debtor (perhaps via mail, if in person seems too confrontational to your wife) to remind him of the debt and that repayment is expected would be the way to go. Formally give the person the opportunity to make good. If he doesn't repay, then your wife can pursue other options,like small claims court, or contacting the church officials and warning them about this person.
posted by skye.dancer at 8:56 PM on February 9, 2013
Warning the people at the church - privately - might protect other like-minded kind people.
Once you've done that, let it go. I have lent people money. I have never gotten any of it back. I both was and was not disappointed. I hoped for better, but I did not expect it. Lending money almost invariably ends a friendship. By letting it go, I mean, try not to hold it over your wife's head, which would be tempting and easy to do.
posted by clarkstonian at 8:57 PM on February 9, 2013
Once you've done that, let it go. I have lent people money. I have never gotten any of it back. I both was and was not disappointed. I hoped for better, but I did not expect it. Lending money almost invariably ends a friendship. By letting it go, I mean, try not to hold it over your wife's head, which would be tempting and easy to do.
posted by clarkstonian at 8:57 PM on February 9, 2013
Why don't you know the details of the arrangement -- is your wife not being forthcoming? If she's withholding info, why? What sort of relationship did they have?
I'm not suggesting anything untoward was going on; I'm just wondering why she can't/won't pursue repayment with the guy. Even something token, like 20 bucks a month, is better than nothing, right?
posted by nacho fries at 9:02 PM on February 9, 2013
I'm not suggesting anything untoward was going on; I'm just wondering why she can't/won't pursue repayment with the guy. Even something token, like 20 bucks a month, is better than nothing, right?
posted by nacho fries at 9:02 PM on February 9, 2013
My previous answer to a similar question is applicable, I think.
posted by flabdablet at 9:18 PM on February 9, 2013
posted by flabdablet at 9:18 PM on February 9, 2013
I think Orange Swan has it, you need to confront the person to tell them that you still expect them to pay the money owed. If they refuse, than you involve the law by bringing them into small claims court.
Do not spread rumors or talk about this publicly. From what you have said, you don't know all of the details, and until you have confronted the person who owes you money to get their side of the story, you don't know exactly what's going on.
There is no reason to let this go, but there is also no reason to possibly cause a lot of harm for something that could be a simple misunderstanding.
posted by markblasco at 9:20 PM on February 9, 2013
Do not spread rumors or talk about this publicly. From what you have said, you don't know all of the details, and until you have confronted the person who owes you money to get their side of the story, you don't know exactly what's going on.
There is no reason to let this go, but there is also no reason to possibly cause a lot of harm for something that could be a simple misunderstanding.
posted by markblasco at 9:20 PM on February 9, 2013
A friend of mine had something similar to this happen to him. Upon investigation, it turned out that his wife actually had had an affair with the other man, and after she called it off, he started blackmailing her into keeping the affair a secret (which is what the "loan" actually was).
While you shouldn't necessarily assume the worst, I don't think taking your wife's explanation at face value is the best idea either. If $2k of my money disappeared with only a bizarre explanation from my S/O about a loan that that she somehow didn't feel I needed to know about at the time, I believe my default approach would be "trust but verify."
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:26 PM on February 9, 2013
While you shouldn't necessarily assume the worst, I don't think taking your wife's explanation at face value is the best idea either. If $2k of my money disappeared with only a bizarre explanation from my S/O about a loan that that she somehow didn't feel I needed to know about at the time, I believe my default approach would be "trust but verify."
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:26 PM on February 9, 2013
Further to lending out money the good way: here's a spreadsheet I made to help keep track of one such loan. It calculates interest daily, capitalises it monthly, and allows the interest rate to be altered at any time, all of which works pretty much the same way a bank savings account would do.
If the creditor keeps something like that up to date as payments arrive (or fail to), and the debtor has read access to it, much misunderstanding and bad feeling can be avoided.
posted by flabdablet at 9:32 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
If the creditor keeps something like that up to date as payments arrive (or fail to), and the debtor has read access to it, much misunderstanding and bad feeling can be avoided.
posted by flabdablet at 9:32 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Everything that orange swan says is correct EXCEPT: if nothing else works and the guy is making 0 amends for it (even sending you a Starbucks gift card, anything) then it is your right to make a public stink about it. I'd even say you have a responsibility to do so if this person is a scammer rather than a fuckup.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:58 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:58 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why in the world would anyone let it go if someone failed to pay back $2,000? Even if this isn't a lot of money to you, the person who borrowed this money must face consequences. Otherwise he will just continue to do this to others.
I don't think public bad-mouthing is the way to go, both because it potentialy makes you look bad (immature, negative, can't handle your own problems) and because it may get you into legal trouble.
Speaking privately with church officials is a good idea, as is taking the borrower to small claims court. Presuming that what your wife told you is true, and that this is clearly a loan and not a gift, I am puzzled as to why you presume you won't get this money back. Even if the borrower doesn't have it now, the court will work out a payment plan for him, and punish him if he doesn't follow it. They have the ability to garnish his wages or place a lien. Unless the borrower is so destitute that he has no job and no money at all, you can likely collect.
posted by parrot_person at 11:17 PM on February 9, 2013
I don't think public bad-mouthing is the way to go, both because it potentialy makes you look bad (immature, negative, can't handle your own problems) and because it may get you into legal trouble.
Speaking privately with church officials is a good idea, as is taking the borrower to small claims court. Presuming that what your wife told you is true, and that this is clearly a loan and not a gift, I am puzzled as to why you presume you won't get this money back. Even if the borrower doesn't have it now, the court will work out a payment plan for him, and punish him if he doesn't follow it. They have the ability to garnish his wages or place a lien. Unless the borrower is so destitute that he has no job and no money at all, you can likely collect.
posted by parrot_person at 11:17 PM on February 9, 2013
Move on.
As for talking to others about it? I dunno, seems like it's none of their business. Also seems icky somehow.
posted by mattoxic at 2:59 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
As for talking to others about it? I dunno, seems like it's none of their business. Also seems icky somehow.
posted by mattoxic at 2:59 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Honestly I agree with Potomac ave, there's a social stigma around publicly shaming people like this, but it often allows them to fly under the radar and keep being crappy people.
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that if they're running within the general group of people you still regularly hang out with, they did this, and they're just trying to walk away from it like it doesn't matter anymore then yes you should bring it up to close friends, or anyone else it seems relevant too.
This is assuming you tried several other ways mentioned here of trying to settle this with them and they completely blew you off. But I am very much not in the "eh, write it off and let them walk away" camp. You don't just let someone walk away from something like this. That's what you do when it's $20 for gas or something. You don't do it again, and you have their "number" so to speak. They might be an ok person and flaky with cash. This is different.
$2000 is a lot of money to a lot of people. And some sort of accountability needs to happen. Public shaming, in the sense of at least discussing this with people with whom it seems relevant(and im not just saying behind closed doors with church officials, etc) is a fairly mature way of doing that. This is of course assuming your wife is on board with trying to get some kind of resolution on this. It also bugs me that discussing this type of thing with anyone is seen as public shaming, as if its something as private as some sort of sexual relation that isn't ever to be discussed even when it reflects on their character, and honestly worth as a friend quite a lot.
This is coming from someone who's lent money in good faith to several people. Sometimes it went ok, sometimes they were mooches who rode away on the assumption that I'd look like a "lameass" or some such for calling them out. Assuming he's trying to pretend this didn't really happen, your best outcome would probably be him suddenly disappearing when he realizes this has come to light and more people than just you have noticed.
You probably won't get your money back, in my experience, but getting him to hit the eject button on the group of people you know is at least some type of improvement. And once again in my experience these scheming types seem to choose that fairly quickly after any attempt is made to make them take responsibility for actions of theirs that didn't turn out how they planned.
posted by emptythought at 4:30 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that if they're running within the general group of people you still regularly hang out with, they did this, and they're just trying to walk away from it like it doesn't matter anymore then yes you should bring it up to close friends, or anyone else it seems relevant too.
This is assuming you tried several other ways mentioned here of trying to settle this with them and they completely blew you off. But I am very much not in the "eh, write it off and let them walk away" camp. You don't just let someone walk away from something like this. That's what you do when it's $20 for gas or something. You don't do it again, and you have their "number" so to speak. They might be an ok person and flaky with cash. This is different.
$2000 is a lot of money to a lot of people. And some sort of accountability needs to happen. Public shaming, in the sense of at least discussing this with people with whom it seems relevant(and im not just saying behind closed doors with church officials, etc) is a fairly mature way of doing that. This is of course assuming your wife is on board with trying to get some kind of resolution on this. It also bugs me that discussing this type of thing with anyone is seen as public shaming, as if its something as private as some sort of sexual relation that isn't ever to be discussed even when it reflects on their character, and honestly worth as a friend quite a lot.
This is coming from someone who's lent money in good faith to several people. Sometimes it went ok, sometimes they were mooches who rode away on the assumption that I'd look like a "lameass" or some such for calling them out. Assuming he's trying to pretend this didn't really happen, your best outcome would probably be him suddenly disappearing when he realizes this has come to light and more people than just you have noticed.
You probably won't get your money back, in my experience, but getting him to hit the eject button on the group of people you know is at least some type of improvement. And once again in my experience these scheming types seem to choose that fairly quickly after any attempt is made to make them take responsibility for actions of theirs that didn't turn out how they planned.
posted by emptythought at 4:30 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Before doing anything, I'd get all the specific details. Specifically, are you sure this was a loan (a promise to pay it back was made)? Or did he tell your wife he'd invest it and she was sure to make money back?
I say this because "money for their day trading enterprise" sounds like it wasn't a loan. When you invest your money, a return is not guaranteed. You could lose it all. If it turns out that it wasn't a loan but just an investment gone really bad, I'd not say anything to him or his church leaders.
posted by Houstonian at 5:47 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I say this because "money for their day trading enterprise" sounds like it wasn't a loan. When you invest your money, a return is not guaranteed. You could lose it all. If it turns out that it wasn't a loan but just an investment gone really bad, I'd not say anything to him or his church leaders.
posted by Houstonian at 5:47 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: IAAL, IANYL, TINLA.
Several people have said "small claims court". It's a popular thing to say on AskMeFi, right behind "therapy". I do not think you have a legal claim. Your wife put nothing in writing before lending the money. People will say "oral contract!" but what where the terms? If it was just "I'll pay you back one day" then you don't have a contract because he had no obligation to pay back so you could never show breach.
On the spiritual side, there are a number of accounts in the sayings of the Desert Fathers of saints being robbed. In one, the monk is robbed of everything but a small bottle that the thieves over looked, so he runs down the road to give it to them, which causes the robbers to repent and return everything. In another story, a hermit returns to his home to find it being robbed and he, without telling the thieves he is the owner, helps the robbers clear out the house. I hope the message has been conveyed.
In this case, you haven't been robbed. Your wife made a foolish choice regarding money without involving you. Your problem is really with your wife, not this man. Fortunately, she seems repentant and unlikely to repeat this error again. I say let it go and say nothing to anyone about it. And most importantly, forgive your wife and this man. Your treasure will be in the coming kingdom.
posted by Tanizaki at 5:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Several people have said "small claims court". It's a popular thing to say on AskMeFi, right behind "therapy". I do not think you have a legal claim. Your wife put nothing in writing before lending the money. People will say "oral contract!" but what where the terms? If it was just "I'll pay you back one day" then you don't have a contract because he had no obligation to pay back so you could never show breach.
On the spiritual side, there are a number of accounts in the sayings of the Desert Fathers of saints being robbed. In one, the monk is robbed of everything but a small bottle that the thieves over looked, so he runs down the road to give it to them, which causes the robbers to repent and return everything. In another story, a hermit returns to his home to find it being robbed and he, without telling the thieves he is the owner, helps the robbers clear out the house. I hope the message has been conveyed.
In this case, you haven't been robbed. Your wife made a foolish choice regarding money without involving you. Your problem is really with your wife, not this man. Fortunately, she seems repentant and unlikely to repeat this error again. I say let it go and say nothing to anyone about it. And most importantly, forgive your wife and this man. Your treasure will be in the coming kingdom.
posted by Tanizaki at 5:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've just found out from my wife that she lent a party $2k who was wanting money for their day trading enterprise.
Was he telling her that he was going to make money for her or something?
A lot of people use church to make business (or "business") contacts. I would be surprised if your wife is the only one. I vote for telling a church official, the type who would hear if it happens to other people in the group.
posted by BibiRose at 6:08 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Was he telling her that he was going to make money for her or something?
A lot of people use church to make business (or "business") contacts. I would be surprised if your wife is the only one. I vote for telling a church official, the type who would hear if it happens to other people in the group.
posted by BibiRose at 6:08 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Let the church know.
Unfortunately, sometimes "wolves" join a flock for the sole purpose to fleece some sheep. Not saying necessarily that this fellow is a wolf but he needs to be on someone's radar.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, sometimes "wolves" join a flock for the sole purpose to fleece some sheep. Not saying necessarily that this fellow is a wolf but he needs to be on someone's radar.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, you need to ask your wife directly if this man was investing the money for her and would give her the earnings (of which there have been none) or if she was lending him $2000 and he said he would pay her back (and when exactly did he say he would pay her back). I suspect that she invested the $2K with him, in which case she is out $2k and has learned a great, but pricey lesson, but if she did in fact lend him the money than one of you (preferably her, since she lent the money) needs to confront him, and alert church officials to the fact that he may be scamming other church members.
posted by echo0720 at 7:38 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by echo0720 at 7:38 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Is a small claims judgment public? If you get an IOU, and don't get repaid, please do go to small claims court, because the guy will just find a new church and any record is better than none.
Talk to your wife about how you 2 should handle money. Maybe she needs to have more responsibility so she'll learn needed skills. It sounds like she made this mistake out of compassion, which is probably why you love her. She might need you to let her know that.
posted by theora55 at 9:03 AM on February 10, 2013
Talk to your wife about how you 2 should handle money. Maybe she needs to have more responsibility so she'll learn needed skills. It sounds like she made this mistake out of compassion, which is probably why you love her. She might need you to let her know that.
posted by theora55 at 9:03 AM on February 10, 2013
you need to ask your wife what she wants to do. she's a grown woman and it was probably very difficult for you to tell her. you respond by having horse head fantasies and facebook stalking and thinking about making pubic accusations. you might want to pull back, refocus on her, figure out why it took two years to tell you (probably a lot of embarrassment, maybe some trepidation that you'd react exactly like you're reacting). then, support her in the actions she wants to take. if she wants to drop it entirely, maybe suggest that at least quietly informing the church might save people who really can't afford to lose the money,
posted by nadawi at 9:06 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 9:06 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Churches have some unique vulnerabilities when it comes to dealing with fraudsters - they tend to serve vulnerable populations, they cultivate atmospheres of trust and belief in "christian brotherhood." Google searches will get you plenty of stories about church officials who have embezzled from their churches, or congregants who have exploited the trust of their fellow parishioners.
I think it's important to tell the church leaders. Think how you and your wife would feel if you learn that the same individual "borrowed" money from several other congregants without repaying any of them.
They might also be able to mediate a discussion with this individual about the loan and why it has not been repayed. It's hard to know whether that's a good idea in this situation, but if this went down as described it doesn't seem at all right for it to be swept under the rug.
posted by bunderful at 9:19 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think it's important to tell the church leaders. Think how you and your wife would feel if you learn that the same individual "borrowed" money from several other congregants without repaying any of them.
They might also be able to mediate a discussion with this individual about the loan and why it has not been repayed. It's hard to know whether that's a good idea in this situation, but if this went down as described it doesn't seem at all right for it to be swept under the rug.
posted by bunderful at 9:19 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
This so common in churches there ought to be a required course in seminary about recognizing it and dealing with the aftermath (if there isn't already).
Tell your pastor, then the elders or board, if such exist.
Then sit back and watch this guy disappear and reappear in a new congregation.
Tell the authorities at the new church too, and repeat as many times as necessary to make yourself feel a little better about the whole thing.
posted by jamjam at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Tell your pastor, then the elders or board, if such exist.
Then sit back and watch this guy disappear and reappear in a new congregation.
Tell the authorities at the new church too, and repeat as many times as necessary to make yourself feel a little better about the whole thing.
posted by jamjam at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh, and don't bother trying to get your money back.
A normal person would be so ashamed of himself by now he wouldn't be setting foot in your wife's church anymore.
His brazenness virtually guarantees that he's a con and this is a way of life for him.
posted by jamjam at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2013
A normal person would be so ashamed of himself by now he wouldn't be setting foot in your wife's church anymore.
His brazenness virtually guarantees that he's a con and this is a way of life for him.
posted by jamjam at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks for all these comments. They are all thoughtful responses to this. When I posted, I was in reaction having just found out about this just an hour or two previously. I've learned from experience to take no action until I can act without anger or attachment toward this individual as I will only create more problems. So, no angry Facebook posts or other acts of public shaming.
I've since found out this was 3 years ago, not one to two, but the debt still exists. My picture is that this was a loan, not an investment, until the trader's 'ship came in' to so speak. I've avoided hurling thunderbolts and causing emotional ruckus about this. My wife was embarrassed and mortified at the time, and this person was coming into her space about the debt. She wanted out of this scenario and basically told them to only contact her with the loan repayment. Then she left the church and has not returned.
Yes, there's a question there about money, relationship and how we communicate about this. Not creating a big drama about this would be my first step so I don't close off the communication. More work to be done there.
At a minimum, I will contact the church, perhaps anonymously, but in some fashion, either in person or via letters to one or more parties relaying this scenario. They should have no avenue of plausible denial I think. This person is prominent on their Facebook page with several posts so very involved with their church.
As for pursuing a payback scenario of the loan, that's very germane. So, it's a tossup now between having purchased a somewhat expensive lesson in the value of money and moving on, or acting to recover this money in whatever means is available to me following some of the excellent suggestions I've seen on this thread.
posted by diode at 10:05 AM on February 10, 2013
I've since found out this was 3 years ago, not one to two, but the debt still exists. My picture is that this was a loan, not an investment, until the trader's 'ship came in' to so speak. I've avoided hurling thunderbolts and causing emotional ruckus about this. My wife was embarrassed and mortified at the time, and this person was coming into her space about the debt. She wanted out of this scenario and basically told them to only contact her with the loan repayment. Then she left the church and has not returned.
Yes, there's a question there about money, relationship and how we communicate about this. Not creating a big drama about this would be my first step so I don't close off the communication. More work to be done there.
At a minimum, I will contact the church, perhaps anonymously, but in some fashion, either in person or via letters to one or more parties relaying this scenario. They should have no avenue of plausible denial I think. This person is prominent on their Facebook page with several posts so very involved with their church.
As for pursuing a payback scenario of the loan, that's very germane. So, it's a tossup now between having purchased a somewhat expensive lesson in the value of money and moving on, or acting to recover this money in whatever means is available to me following some of the excellent suggestions I've seen on this thread.
posted by diode at 10:05 AM on February 10, 2013
Response by poster: As a footnote to this, I have no way to determine whether this debt is recoverable via small claims. I don't have a model of how the law would work in this regard. I can certainly contact the individual, ask for an IOU, or written agreement as to how they plan to make us whole. If he refuses, or does not cooperate, whether a loan of this type is recoverable isn't clear to me. The law has a stringent set of rules. If I have no written agreement, it was a personal loan, the money is gone, how would I show the court the loan even exists, much less is due us. At the moment, it seems like I would be visiting this person at the church, pointing out that I plan to contact the church about this, and give him the opportunity to keep his agreement. Then if I have no further recourse, move on.
posted by diode at 10:17 AM on February 10, 2013
posted by diode at 10:17 AM on February 10, 2013
Hey, why not leverage every tool you have to get the money back, since after all, the debtor leveraged the church relationship to get the loan in the first place. Have a talk with the fellow about a written repayment plan and if he doesn't cooperate, what do you have to lose by talking to the church officers about this person having leverage a church relationship to engage in questionable behavior.
posted by Dansaman at 10:31 AM on February 10, 2013
posted by Dansaman at 10:31 AM on February 10, 2013
I have no way to determine whether this debt is recoverable via small claims.
This is sort of the point of small claims courts in states where they cater to pro se plaintiffs. They expect that you won't know any of this, and are there to adjudicate that dispute anyway. If you don't know how the rules would go together, don't do yourself the disservice of attempting to (pessimistically) try the case in your head.
Look into what it would cost to do it as a last resort in terms of filing fees, time, etc. and ask yourself whether the risk of losing the time and fees is worth getting your $2k back (or being able to write it off). If it is, go give it a shot.
posted by toomuchpete at 10:33 AM on February 10, 2013
This is sort of the point of small claims courts in states where they cater to pro se plaintiffs. They expect that you won't know any of this, and are there to adjudicate that dispute anyway. If you don't know how the rules would go together, don't do yourself the disservice of attempting to (pessimistically) try the case in your head.
Look into what it would cost to do it as a last resort in terms of filing fees, time, etc. and ask yourself whether the risk of losing the time and fees is worth getting your $2k back (or being able to write it off). If it is, go give it a shot.
posted by toomuchpete at 10:33 AM on February 10, 2013
Contact the church both in writing and in person. Do not do so anonymously, particularly if this person has some standing in the church community.
posted by canine epigram at 1:29 PM on February 10, 2013
posted by canine epigram at 1:29 PM on February 10, 2013
I would be careful also not to accidentally walk into blackmailing the person. For example, if you were to say, "pay back the loan or else I will [whatever it is you'd do]...." then you should think about whether you've crossed the line from settling your contract into blackmail. (After all, one of the classic Mob movie scenarios is all about using threats to ensure the payment of off-the-books loans.)
Of course, this kind of determination isn't something AskMeFi or I could answer based on the facts you've presented, nor would it be appropriate for us to do so. Just thought a word of caution was in order as it sounds like you want to be sure to deal with this in an upright fashion.
posted by Nx at 3:21 PM on February 10, 2013
Of course, this kind of determination isn't something AskMeFi or I could answer based on the facts you've presented, nor would it be appropriate for us to do so. Just thought a word of caution was in order as it sounds like you want to be sure to deal with this in an upright fashion.
posted by Nx at 3:21 PM on February 10, 2013
Do NOT make a Facebook comment. One person's pithy is another person's pissy.
posted by maryr at 4:39 PM on February 10, 2013
posted by maryr at 4:39 PM on February 10, 2013
Best answer: As for pursuing a payback scenario of the loan, that's very germane.
I once worked for a firm that employed a secretary who proved vague and scatterbrained and almost completely useless until she was assigned the task of recovering long-standing unpaid bills, many of them for several thousands of dollars - which is where she proved to be a Viking.
Her technique was basically the same one she used to get herself employed in the first place: being extremely personable, friendly and persistent by telephone. She'd sit down with this week's list of deadbeats and just start calling them up, engage them in friendly conversation, work the conversation around to making it perfectly clear that she thought they'd probably just overlooked this debt, and then ask if there was anything she could do to help them pay it off in a way that was convenient. Her recovery rate was something like 90%.
If I were in your shoes, I'd be contacting the debtor and taking basically that attitude. Remind him that it's now been three years since he was lent the money and ask what you can do to help the loan start to get repaid in a timely fashion. Bear in mind at all times that (a) your waiting three years before asking for repayment of a $2000 loan has done the debtor a large favour, which fact you can reasonably expect him to be aware of and (b) if you're going to get repaid, the most likely way that's going to happen is regularly in small convenient chunks. So instead of opening negotiations at "When are we going to see our $2k again?" start with "How would you feel about paying that off at, say, $20/week with a 6% APR applying from today?"
The point of asking for a 6% APR starting from today is that (a) this gives you a rather higher rate of return than you'd get if you had the $2000 in your hand today and banked it, plus (b) it's a rather lower rate than your debtor would be charged if he needed to take out a personal loan to pay you off in one hit. It's win-win.
If you can agree on a reasonable APR, then from a straight investment point of view it simply stops mattering how small the weekly repayments are provided they actually continue to happen and are slightly larger than needed to cover interest alone.
Check your grievance at the door, treat this as strictly business, stay businesslike and friendly and you might actually get somewhere. Just make sure you end each conversation with a clear understanding that specific action X will happen on specific future date D, so that if that doesn't happen you've got a clear reason for a followup call.
Log all those calls, confirm anything agreed to via email, and log all those as well. Because if this guy is the kind of immature dickhead who will agree to stuff just to get you off his back, and then not follow through on what's agreed to, six months worth of that in paper trail form gives you a hell of a lot more to take to small claims than what you have now.
posted by flabdablet at 5:00 PM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
I once worked for a firm that employed a secretary who proved vague and scatterbrained and almost completely useless until she was assigned the task of recovering long-standing unpaid bills, many of them for several thousands of dollars - which is where she proved to be a Viking.
Her technique was basically the same one she used to get herself employed in the first place: being extremely personable, friendly and persistent by telephone. She'd sit down with this week's list of deadbeats and just start calling them up, engage them in friendly conversation, work the conversation around to making it perfectly clear that she thought they'd probably just overlooked this debt, and then ask if there was anything she could do to help them pay it off in a way that was convenient. Her recovery rate was something like 90%.
If I were in your shoes, I'd be contacting the debtor and taking basically that attitude. Remind him that it's now been three years since he was lent the money and ask what you can do to help the loan start to get repaid in a timely fashion. Bear in mind at all times that (a) your waiting three years before asking for repayment of a $2000 loan has done the debtor a large favour, which fact you can reasonably expect him to be aware of and (b) if you're going to get repaid, the most likely way that's going to happen is regularly in small convenient chunks. So instead of opening negotiations at "When are we going to see our $2k again?" start with "How would you feel about paying that off at, say, $20/week with a 6% APR applying from today?"
The point of asking for a 6% APR starting from today is that (a) this gives you a rather higher rate of return than you'd get if you had the $2000 in your hand today and banked it, plus (b) it's a rather lower rate than your debtor would be charged if he needed to take out a personal loan to pay you off in one hit. It's win-win.
If you can agree on a reasonable APR, then from a straight investment point of view it simply stops mattering how small the weekly repayments are provided they actually continue to happen and are slightly larger than needed to cover interest alone.
Check your grievance at the door, treat this as strictly business, stay businesslike and friendly and you might actually get somewhere. Just make sure you end each conversation with a clear understanding that specific action X will happen on specific future date D, so that if that doesn't happen you've got a clear reason for a followup call.
Log all those calls, confirm anything agreed to via email, and log all those as well. Because if this guy is the kind of immature dickhead who will agree to stuff just to get you off his back, and then not follow through on what's agreed to, six months worth of that in paper trail form gives you a hell of a lot more to take to small claims than what you have now.
posted by flabdablet at 5:00 PM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
Discuss the issue with church officials.
If it's not too late, file in small claims court for recovery. You may not get any money back, but the issue is ethics, not dollars.
If he's a habitual scammer, these two actions will do what's necessary, namely applying sunlight to germs. If this was a one-time thing, it may serve as a wake-up call.
No horse's head stuff, no personal confrontations for the purpose of letting him know what a low-life turkey you think he is. That's for the primary fantasy, to get it out of your system. Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to your kids, is my motto. I applaud your restraint.
posted by mule98J at 5:18 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
If it's not too late, file in small claims court for recovery. You may not get any money back, but the issue is ethics, not dollars.
If he's a habitual scammer, these two actions will do what's necessary, namely applying sunlight to germs. If this was a one-time thing, it may serve as a wake-up call.
No horse's head stuff, no personal confrontations for the purpose of letting him know what a low-life turkey you think he is. That's for the primary fantasy, to get it out of your system. Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to your kids, is my motto. I applaud your restraint.
posted by mule98J at 5:18 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks all, these are all very useful. My next step is to contact the church. I plan to ask the pastor to simply sit in with me when I meet with the person. All above board. I plan to be friendly, ask for a repayment plan, be polite and persistent and follow through until such time I can determine whether the person will keep their agreements and start paying the debt down or avoid this, in which case off to small claims. I plan to ask the pastor to simply witness and not moderate and then keep them informed of the outcome.
posted by diode at 3:46 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by diode at 3:46 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
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