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June 24, 2012 7:31 PM Subscribe
How do I get over my mainstream ideals and let this friendship be its awesome self?
I'm 23 years old, male and gay. The friend in question, Rachel, is 21 years old, female and bi.
Rachel and I met 1.5 years ago at her boyfriend's birthday celebration (he and I were friends first). Since then, we've become incredibly close to the point that our friends joke about us being married and random strangers call us "platonic soulmates". We understand each other incredibly well - I can tell if she's upset from a 2 word text message, whenever we sleep over at the other's home we just stay up talking the entire time, we have similar philosophies on a whole bunch of issues, etc. - and are generally very excited to have someone that fits that niche in our lives. This is compounded by the fact that we each have very few friends who are into science and scientific discoveries the way we are, so we tend to "save" those discussions for each other. We also have very little in the way of local family - her mother and sister are overseas, no father in the picture; I have no parents, my brother is across the province and my sister is still "little" in my mind - so I guess we're both looking for that close platonic connection. I trust her immensely, she's the only person I trusted to take care of me after surgery this spring, and she opens up to me about things she has a very hard time talking about.
However, I've found myself wanting to do things that are perceived as romantic in order to make her happy. On my way to her house, I'll stop by the supermarket to pick up ingredients for supper and I'll see flowers then decide to buy them for her to make her feel appreciated. If she's stressed out about something, I'll set an alarm and wake up early to text her good luck or remind her how awesome she is. I want to snuggle/cuddle her a lot, or kiss her on the forehead, in an "I want you to see how much you mean to me" kind of way. When her boyfriend drops the ball/ignores her feelings and she's sad, I find myself wanting to pick up the slack so that she still feels appreciated. She's remarked on a few occasions that "if [I'm] trying to make [Ben] look bad, [I'm] doing a good job" which is not my intent (even though I think she can do sooo much better). She also does things like getting me memorabilia I love (a Thor comic! a specialty coin!) out of the blue. When presenting me with the coin, she had a whole mock proposal planned out but felt too awkward doing it in public so she told me about it afterward (something along the lines of "will you be my platonic soulmate? in surgery and in health? through dungeons and dances...").
I also find myself wanting to do domestic couple-y things for her, like having dinner ready for her when she gets home from work/school, or setting aside my plans on a night when she feels bad so we can watch sappy movies. We're moving in together (with another mutual friend) in August/September and I can easily imagine myself becoming a "live-in boyfriend" of sorts (which I am OK with and do not feel used by at all).
I really really like the dynamic we have. I become easily exhausted by social contact but for some reason, she doesn't bring out this exhaustion. I want to do the things I do, I don't feel obligated, and I think she likes that she isn't obligated to respond in any way (I certainly have no expectations of this).
So my problems are:
1. I feel like I'm struggling with some internalized something that makes me believe I should feel bad about our friendship's structure or that I'm fooling myself into thinking it's non-romantic. I think it might have something to do with a mutual friend's insistent jokes that we should "just marry each other already". Other friends have taken to referring to her as my wife or girlfriend (when her boyfriend isn't around, anyway).
2. I also have trouble seeing two sexual people agreeing to be in a primary relationship (we're both poly) that isn't sexual even though I could see it working. I brought this up jokingly to her as "when you're older, or if you ever decide you don't want to have sex in your primary relationship, we should get common law married and talk about science all the time". She gently chided me about being tainted by mainstream ideals, which is what prompted this post.
3. I also sometimes feel very resentful towards my sexual orientation for not including her in it. I mean, she and I are a wonderful match in every conceivable way I can think of: compatible relationship styles, we never run out of things to talk about, we communicate well, we're not afraid to negotiate boundaries with each other, we both want kids in the long term, we have compatible ethics/morals, our life goals line up, and so on. But my sexuality just won't get on board with this plan. I guess, in a way, I worry that I won't be able to find someone else I'm as compatible with.
I then feel really bad for even thinking about of this because it presumes she would be into me if I was straight which makes me feel... kind of like a jerk/presumptuous ass. We discussed us having sex a bit and she pointed out that we'd likely get distracted halfway through sex and just talk anyway which I can totally see happening.
I know that most of these would likely go away if I was less romantically lonely or if she was dating someone who consistently/actually made her feel loved... but that isn't likely to change soon/isn't something I can control so I'm looking for alternative ways of dealing with this (on my end) in the interim.
To clarify, my ideal is that we stay platonic soulmates and I stop feeling so guilty about it.
I'm 23 years old, male and gay. The friend in question, Rachel, is 21 years old, female and bi.
Rachel and I met 1.5 years ago at her boyfriend's birthday celebration (he and I were friends first). Since then, we've become incredibly close to the point that our friends joke about us being married and random strangers call us "platonic soulmates". We understand each other incredibly well - I can tell if she's upset from a 2 word text message, whenever we sleep over at the other's home we just stay up talking the entire time, we have similar philosophies on a whole bunch of issues, etc. - and are generally very excited to have someone that fits that niche in our lives. This is compounded by the fact that we each have very few friends who are into science and scientific discoveries the way we are, so we tend to "save" those discussions for each other. We also have very little in the way of local family - her mother and sister are overseas, no father in the picture; I have no parents, my brother is across the province and my sister is still "little" in my mind - so I guess we're both looking for that close platonic connection. I trust her immensely, she's the only person I trusted to take care of me after surgery this spring, and she opens up to me about things she has a very hard time talking about.
However, I've found myself wanting to do things that are perceived as romantic in order to make her happy. On my way to her house, I'll stop by the supermarket to pick up ingredients for supper and I'll see flowers then decide to buy them for her to make her feel appreciated. If she's stressed out about something, I'll set an alarm and wake up early to text her good luck or remind her how awesome she is. I want to snuggle/cuddle her a lot, or kiss her on the forehead, in an "I want you to see how much you mean to me" kind of way. When her boyfriend drops the ball/ignores her feelings and she's sad, I find myself wanting to pick up the slack so that she still feels appreciated. She's remarked on a few occasions that "if [I'm] trying to make [Ben] look bad, [I'm] doing a good job" which is not my intent (even though I think she can do sooo much better). She also does things like getting me memorabilia I love (a Thor comic! a specialty coin!) out of the blue. When presenting me with the coin, she had a whole mock proposal planned out but felt too awkward doing it in public so she told me about it afterward (something along the lines of "will you be my platonic soulmate? in surgery and in health? through dungeons and dances...").
I also find myself wanting to do domestic couple-y things for her, like having dinner ready for her when she gets home from work/school, or setting aside my plans on a night when she feels bad so we can watch sappy movies. We're moving in together (with another mutual friend) in August/September and I can easily imagine myself becoming a "live-in boyfriend" of sorts (which I am OK with and do not feel used by at all).
I really really like the dynamic we have. I become easily exhausted by social contact but for some reason, she doesn't bring out this exhaustion. I want to do the things I do, I don't feel obligated, and I think she likes that she isn't obligated to respond in any way (I certainly have no expectations of this).
So my problems are:
1. I feel like I'm struggling with some internalized something that makes me believe I should feel bad about our friendship's structure or that I'm fooling myself into thinking it's non-romantic. I think it might have something to do with a mutual friend's insistent jokes that we should "just marry each other already". Other friends have taken to referring to her as my wife or girlfriend (when her boyfriend isn't around, anyway).
2. I also have trouble seeing two sexual people agreeing to be in a primary relationship (we're both poly) that isn't sexual even though I could see it working. I brought this up jokingly to her as "when you're older, or if you ever decide you don't want to have sex in your primary relationship, we should get common law married and talk about science all the time". She gently chided me about being tainted by mainstream ideals, which is what prompted this post.
3. I also sometimes feel very resentful towards my sexual orientation for not including her in it. I mean, she and I are a wonderful match in every conceivable way I can think of: compatible relationship styles, we never run out of things to talk about, we communicate well, we're not afraid to negotiate boundaries with each other, we both want kids in the long term, we have compatible ethics/morals, our life goals line up, and so on. But my sexuality just won't get on board with this plan. I guess, in a way, I worry that I won't be able to find someone else I'm as compatible with.
I then feel really bad for even thinking about of this because it presumes she would be into me if I was straight which makes me feel... kind of like a jerk/presumptuous ass. We discussed us having sex a bit and she pointed out that we'd likely get distracted halfway through sex and just talk anyway which I can totally see happening.
I know that most of these would likely go away if I was less romantically lonely or if she was dating someone who consistently/actually made her feel loved... but that isn't likely to change soon/isn't something I can control so I'm looking for alternative ways of dealing with this (on my end) in the interim.
To clarify, my ideal is that we stay platonic soulmates and I stop feeling so guilty about it.
There's a heck of a lot about how you feel here but I think the real question is how she feels. If she's into you in a non-platonic way, this could be torture for her.
posted by unSane at 7:51 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by unSane at 7:51 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sounds like you two should start a commune.
Enjoy your friendship.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:52 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Enjoy your friendship.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:52 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I swear on my life I am not trying to be trite here or in any way dismissive of the thought and concern you're expending here, but... have you really never seen Will & Grace?
In other words, the structure of your #2 friendship is actually pretty common. It is recognised as different things in different combinations but certainly I have had friendships like that in my life, both with a gay man and with straight or not straight women. "I wish you were straight / were a guy / were gay, I'd totally marry you" is a very common lament. Then you get over it and go paint someone's toenails.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:56 PM on June 24, 2012 [14 favorites]
In other words, the structure of your #2 friendship is actually pretty common. It is recognised as different things in different combinations but certainly I have had friendships like that in my life, both with a gay man and with straight or not straight women. "I wish you were straight / were a guy / were gay, I'd totally marry you" is a very common lament. Then you get over it and go paint someone's toenails.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:56 PM on June 24, 2012 [14 favorites]
Yeah, enjoy what you have! It's a beautiful thing. Just for the record when my besty Dave and I lived together it was as close and caring a friendship as you guys have. Even as two hetros we never wanted to bed each other (ew!). We kidded we were siblings separated as babies.
posted by Kerasia at 7:57 PM on June 24, 2012
posted by Kerasia at 7:57 PM on June 24, 2012
Sounds like you are a wonderful, giving, affectionate person and you are directing all this affection to your girlfriend because you don't have a boyfriend to direct it to. Go with it, but once you find guy to shower with wonderful thoughtful gestures, your girl will sure miss you.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:00 PM on June 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:00 PM on June 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
I think this kind of deep platonic connection is common during formative adult years; I know I had a few intense friendships in my early 20's that have been unmatched since then.
You're correct, I think, that a friendship wouldn't take up so much space in your life if you had a romantic partner and if she had a better romantic partner.
As much as I would like to say that you will be 'platonic soulmates' forever, your friendship will likely take a different and less intense form as you each develop primary romantic relationships.
My advice would be to just enjoy this while it lasts. It's a great way of figuring out what you want in a partner!
posted by cranberrymonger at 8:00 PM on June 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
You're correct, I think, that a friendship wouldn't take up so much space in your life if you had a romantic partner and if she had a better romantic partner.
As much as I would like to say that you will be 'platonic soulmates' forever, your friendship will likely take a different and less intense form as you each develop primary romantic relationships.
My advice would be to just enjoy this while it lasts. It's a great way of figuring out what you want in a partner!
posted by cranberrymonger at 8:00 PM on June 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
What stood out to me the most about your letter was your ages. You are 23 and 21. You, sir, definitely have time to meet a man you feel this way about, and it sounds like her current relationship is not going to last long-term. I have a feeling that things will just....change. Wait and see where you are 1.5 years from now.
I agree with the poster who said that you should check in with her about her feelings, but as long as you both enjoy your friendship, what's there to fix? You don't need to feel guilty about being someone's best friend.
But I can't emphasize this enough - you will meet a guy someday (next year, next decade, but someday) with whom you will want to build a life, including a great sexual relationship. Don't worry about that. Get out there, date some cute guys, and enjoy telling Rachel about all the dating drama. Have fun!
posted by Pearl67 at 8:11 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I agree with the poster who said that you should check in with her about her feelings, but as long as you both enjoy your friendship, what's there to fix? You don't need to feel guilty about being someone's best friend.
But I can't emphasize this enough - you will meet a guy someday (next year, next decade, but someday) with whom you will want to build a life, including a great sexual relationship. Don't worry about that. Get out there, date some cute guys, and enjoy telling Rachel about all the dating drama. Have fun!
posted by Pearl67 at 8:11 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Re: Her Feelings, I'm as certain as I can be. I mean, I'm pretty sure she'd tell me considering that we've had discussions about things like "hey maybe we should get married later on in life" and "assuming I were into women and you were into me, do you think us having sex could work?" (she's the one who proposed no in that situation, fwiw). That said, I'm well aware that I can't read her mind and that's why I focused on my feelings in this post.
posted by buteo at 8:23 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by buteo at 8:23 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is me and my best friend totally. We met at about the ages you and your friend are now. Lovers can come and go, but Paul and I have "been together" for more than 25 years now. We don't live in the same state now, but the love can last. Just enjoy it!
posted by cyndigo at 8:24 PM on June 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by cyndigo at 8:24 PM on June 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
I've been where you are now. Though the sexual dynamic was different, the result was the same. Two people acted like they were a couple - practically an old married couple - but they weren't a couple at all.
It's dangerous territory because it can easily interfere with either or both of you finding and developing a real relationship elsewhere, and bad things can happen if one of you tries to change the dynamic in any way, even when trying to not hurt the other.
Enjoy the friendship, but never forget that it isn't a marriage, and never let it playfully appear that it is more than it is.
posted by 2oh1 at 8:28 PM on June 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
It's dangerous territory because it can easily interfere with either or both of you finding and developing a real relationship elsewhere, and bad things can happen if one of you tries to change the dynamic in any way, even when trying to not hurt the other.
Enjoy the friendship, but never forget that it isn't a marriage, and never let it playfully appear that it is more than it is.
posted by 2oh1 at 8:28 PM on June 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is so cliche, you might as well be movie characters. Get a boyfriend so she's not eating up all your emotional energy, but other than that, just go with what your feelings are telling you. I have had female friends who had sex with their 'best gay friends', btw, and it didn't fuck anything up for their relationship, but ymmv, obviously.
posted by empath at 8:36 PM on June 24, 2012
posted by empath at 8:36 PM on June 24, 2012
I had a similar relationship at a later age when a friend and I were going through different sorts of tough times and needed to care for someone while being cared for ourselves. It was weird, and pushed boundaries, and was the occasion for a lot of introspection on my part, and then our situations changed and so did our relationship. We still adore each other, but we're no longer at risk of being taken for or teased about being "a couple." (A certain amount of that teasing, I'm pretty sure, came from a place of envy -- largely affectionate envy, but keep in mind that what people are saying to you may say more about them than about you.)
I feel like I'm struggling with some internalized something that makes me believe I should feel bad about our friendship's structure or that I'm fooling myself into thinking it's non-romantic.
You shouldn't feel bad about a relationship that's based on respect, trust and good communication, which it sounds like this is. If you love each other and want each other to be happy, you'll work through this. Keep being a good friend to her, but keep looking for people who have a chance of being as good an emotional match for you who you're sexually compatible with. You've got time to find them, don't worry!
posted by EvaDestruction at 8:39 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
I feel like I'm struggling with some internalized something that makes me believe I should feel bad about our friendship's structure or that I'm fooling myself into thinking it's non-romantic.
You shouldn't feel bad about a relationship that's based on respect, trust and good communication, which it sounds like this is. If you love each other and want each other to be happy, you'll work through this. Keep being a good friend to her, but keep looking for people who have a chance of being as good an emotional match for you who you're sexually compatible with. You've got time to find them, don't worry!
posted by EvaDestruction at 8:39 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sounds a bit like the relationship my best friend and I (two straight women) had when we were in our mid-twenties: staying up all night talking, sharing things we don't share with anyone else, taking care of each other, having similar worldviews and goals. I miss that so much (we live in different cities now, she's married and has two small children, we've grown apart), so all I can say is: enjoy this! It's so rare and wonderful and it can be fleeting.
Try not to regret what you can't have or worry about what the future will bring, but it's understandable if you do. Think of how many straight women say they wish they could be lesbian or bi so they could date their best friends - that's basically what you're experiencing.
I guess, in a way, I worry that I won't be able to find someone else I'm as compatible with.
My perspective on this: the relationship you have is not special just because you're compatible, but because of the deep emotional bond you've forged. Being able to forge a bong like this is a key to finding a satisfying romantic relationship, so it bodes well for your romantic future that you've formed this relationship with her.
posted by the essence of class and fanciness at 8:49 PM on June 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
Try not to regret what you can't have or worry about what the future will bring, but it's understandable if you do. Think of how many straight women say they wish they could be lesbian or bi so they could date their best friends - that's basically what you're experiencing.
I guess, in a way, I worry that I won't be able to find someone else I'm as compatible with.
My perspective on this: the relationship you have is not special just because you're compatible, but because of the deep emotional bond you've forged. Being able to forge a bong like this is a key to finding a satisfying romantic relationship, so it bodes well for your romantic future that you've formed this relationship with her.
posted by the essence of class and fanciness at 8:49 PM on June 24, 2012 [5 favorites]
I actually have a very similar friendship, although a little bit different, but there are many, many commonalities. I met my friend when he was in his 20s and we are still very close 20 years later. It has been one of the closest friendships of my life. There were also (and occasionally still are) people who make the couple comment.
I'm going to step back and just say a few things that spring to mind from reading your questions and my own experiences: Appreciate it for what it is. There are few friendships in your life that are this. It is a one in a million friendship (for me). In addition, not having sex (FWIW my friend is a gay male, so sex won't enter the equation) can actually make the friendship stronger. Why? Because he can give support and helpful opinions on relationships and crushes (and I can do the same)- you truly wish the best for the other person, know the other person well, etc. There is absolutely no competition or jealousy, which seeps into other types of friendships.
Actually, when I read your question, I almost do feel as if you are letting society define what you should feel and do. "Fooling yourself into thinking it is non-romantic." Why is it even romantic? Unless you have desires to sleep with her or it is crossing over those boundaries, it isn't. You can support a friend and be intellectually and emotionally close. Also, FWIW, when I get the "you are a couple" type comments, I put a stop to them and tell people that my friend is gay so it is not that kind of relationship. There are occasional judgey people who don't get to hear that explanation because they can't accept different gender orientations in the 21st century, but ...stop the comments and realize that society is trying to superimpose how you are supposed to relate and put a definition on it.If you hang out with someone a lot, why is assumed that you are a couple?
From reading your description, I think that your friend will also be a life-long friend. It's rare. Hold on to it and value it. Don't let society define it.
posted by Wolfster at 9:17 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm going to step back and just say a few things that spring to mind from reading your questions and my own experiences: Appreciate it for what it is. There are few friendships in your life that are this. It is a one in a million friendship (for me). In addition, not having sex (FWIW my friend is a gay male, so sex won't enter the equation) can actually make the friendship stronger. Why? Because he can give support and helpful opinions on relationships and crushes (and I can do the same)- you truly wish the best for the other person, know the other person well, etc. There is absolutely no competition or jealousy, which seeps into other types of friendships.
Actually, when I read your question, I almost do feel as if you are letting society define what you should feel and do. "Fooling yourself into thinking it is non-romantic." Why is it even romantic? Unless you have desires to sleep with her or it is crossing over those boundaries, it isn't. You can support a friend and be intellectually and emotionally close. Also, FWIW, when I get the "you are a couple" type comments, I put a stop to them and tell people that my friend is gay so it is not that kind of relationship. There are occasional judgey people who don't get to hear that explanation because they can't accept different gender orientations in the 21st century, but ...stop the comments and realize that society is trying to superimpose how you are supposed to relate and put a definition on it.If you hang out with someone a lot, why is assumed that you are a couple?
From reading your description, I think that your friend will also be a life-long friend. It's rare. Hold on to it and value it. Don't let society define it.
posted by Wolfster at 9:17 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
You guys seem to have a totally awesome, honest, fun friendship/relationship. You're a thoughtful person to pose these questions and I respect you for asking. At the end of the day, though, it's just all good. So, you have permission (from me!) to stop feeling guilty and fully enjoy and appreciate every little thing about it!
posted by hapax_legomenon at 9:21 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by hapax_legomenon at 9:21 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Hmm. It does seem like you've been the one to float out more romantic-type arrangements and raising the issue of sex--and she's shot you down ("she's the one who proposed no in that situation, fwiw"), so part of me wonders if maybe you want things to be more Kinsey 4 with her than Kinsey 6. It happens sometimes--there was even a Degrassi episode about a gay guy and his straight BFF having sex and realizing they had feelings for each other after years of friendship. It's just something to consider. If something like that happened, you could still stand under my queer umbrella--though honestly, it sounds like this girl isn't into that, right now.
For what it's worth, I've had a few friendships like these. They're awesome! They do tend to be fairly transitory. Typically a year or so of super intensity and then less so, as life situations change. But I'm still friends with all of these people. They're great! Yay friends!
Of my three BFFs, one is another bi woman, one is a gay guy, and one is a straight guy. None of us have ever talked about having sex, FWIW. So that really stands out to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:42 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, I've had a few friendships like these. They're awesome! They do tend to be fairly transitory. Typically a year or so of super intensity and then less so, as life situations change. But I'm still friends with all of these people. They're great! Yay friends!
Of my three BFFs, one is another bi woman, one is a gay guy, and one is a straight guy. None of us have ever talked about having sex, FWIW. So that really stands out to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:42 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
I suspect this is not as weird as you think it is. I saw some talk show eons ago (I am 47) that talked about "couples" (for lack of a better word) like this, such as a gay man and straight woman raising kids together and taking vacations together and so on such that she had trouble trying to establish a sexual relationship with a hetero male.
I think a lot of people who live unconventionally try to hide that fact or downplay it. I read a book many years ago called "Mayflower Madam", written by a woman who ran a call girl service. Some of their clients were gay men who needed a faux girlfriend to take to weddings and other family events. In one case, the family liked the call girl so much they began pressuring the gay guy to marry her (he always hired the same woman for these events, so it looked like he had a steady girlfriend). They finally had to fake an emotional break up.
I have also read articles about private agreements made by married couples. One woman found out her husband was actually gay and chose to stay but never had sex with him again. Some married couples where one person is bi allow for same sex affairs to satisfy that side of the person, but they expect discretion.
People very often do their best to appear to conform, whether they really do or not. It is a means to avoid trouble. Maybe you should hit the library (or something)?
posted by Michele in California at 9:48 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of people who live unconventionally try to hide that fact or downplay it. I read a book many years ago called "Mayflower Madam", written by a woman who ran a call girl service. Some of their clients were gay men who needed a faux girlfriend to take to weddings and other family events. In one case, the family liked the call girl so much they began pressuring the gay guy to marry her (he always hired the same woman for these events, so it looked like he had a steady girlfriend). They finally had to fake an emotional break up.
I have also read articles about private agreements made by married couples. One woman found out her husband was actually gay and chose to stay but never had sex with him again. Some married couples where one person is bi allow for same sex affairs to satisfy that side of the person, but they expect discretion.
People very often do their best to appear to conform, whether they really do or not. It is a means to avoid trouble. Maybe you should hit the library (or something)?
posted by Michele in California at 9:48 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @PhoBWanKenobi, I will agree with you on that assessment, especially with the me initiating "romantic" behaviour. I'm fairly certain that she's less prone to overt gestures whereas it's very important to me that my loved ones feel appreciated. Your phrasing makes me feel like I should check in with her to make sure I'm not overstepping/making her feel like I'm making romantic overtures, so I'll make sure to talk to her about that!
Me bringing up sex was prompted by the same questions I am asking here; a confused exploration of how to categorize our relationship. I don't find her sexually attractive - well, objectively I guess I do, but I am a pretty solid Kinsey 6 - and my past attempts at being sexual with women ended up being very... boring for me (I just focused on them, didn't want to be touched, wasn't aroused, etc). Despite this, I feel this pressure (from myself? from others? I don't know) to normalize our relationship - which for some reason leads to feeling we should have sex.
posted by buteo at 11:05 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Me bringing up sex was prompted by the same questions I am asking here; a confused exploration of how to categorize our relationship. I don't find her sexually attractive - well, objectively I guess I do, but I am a pretty solid Kinsey 6 - and my past attempts at being sexual with women ended up being very... boring for me (I just focused on them, didn't want to be touched, wasn't aroused, etc). Despite this, I feel this pressure (from myself? from others? I don't know) to normalize our relationship - which for some reason leads to feeling we should have sex.
posted by buteo at 11:05 PM on June 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
More anecdata that you're not alone. I was your girlfriend and my best friend Phil was you. Near the end of our twenties, we each partnered up and moved to different states. We're still very close and I cherish him.
I know the relationship you're having can be kind of painful and anxty. It's a little difficult and confusing to be in love with someone you just don't want to fuck. And make no mistakes about it, you're in love with this girl.
Enjoy it, it's a lovely thing, but protect your heart. It's good that you're involved in the poly community. Go find someone who will buy you flowers and make you dinner.
posted by dchrssyr at 11:08 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
I know the relationship you're having can be kind of painful and anxty. It's a little difficult and confusing to be in love with someone you just don't want to fuck. And make no mistakes about it, you're in love with this girl.
Enjoy it, it's a lovely thing, but protect your heart. It's good that you're involved in the poly community. Go find someone who will buy you flowers and make you dinner.
posted by dchrssyr at 11:08 PM on June 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is she going to feel hurt if you start dating someone and suddenly the flowers and extra attention don't seem to come her way quite as often?
Wait, let me answer that for you: yes she is. At least a wee tiny bit, but maybe a big ol' bit.
Can feeling that way lead to her "disapproving" of your romantic partners or otherwise inserting herself as a wedge between you, consciously or otherwise?
Again, my answer: this happens A LOT, with any kind of close friendship, regardless of the genders involved.
You have this deep bond, you've put in the hard work, you've made your point to her and the world. Now take that excess energy that results in you putting her boyfriend to shame into finding a boyfriend of your own. Your friendship with her will be better off in the long run if you don't set her up to depend on you as a surrogate lover whose happiness depends on your loneliness.
posted by hermitosis at 12:17 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wait, let me answer that for you: yes she is. At least a wee tiny bit, but maybe a big ol' bit.
Can feeling that way lead to her "disapproving" of your romantic partners or otherwise inserting herself as a wedge between you, consciously or otherwise?
Again, my answer: this happens A LOT, with any kind of close friendship, regardless of the genders involved.
You have this deep bond, you've put in the hard work, you've made your point to her and the world. Now take that excess energy that results in you putting her boyfriend to shame into finding a boyfriend of your own. Your friendship with her will be better off in the long run if you don't set her up to depend on you as a surrogate lover whose happiness depends on your loneliness.
posted by hermitosis at 12:17 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
When I was in my 20's, I learned to appreciate that I had not enough sexual interest in women for it to matter, and that I was completely capable of falling in love with one. The Will & Grace trope wasn't as strong in those days. It seemed odd.
But I think someone is out there looking for you, and is going to be seriously happy when he finds you. You are a sweetheart. Expect the best. Maybe show your friend what it's like to have a good boyfriend by getting yourself one.
posted by Goofyy at 3:29 AM on June 25, 2012
But I think someone is out there looking for you, and is going to be seriously happy when he finds you. You are a sweetheart. Expect the best. Maybe show your friend what it's like to have a good boyfriend by getting yourself one.
posted by Goofyy at 3:29 AM on June 25, 2012
Building on what Goofyy said, do you understand that at least some of us fall in love with our friends exactly the same way we fall in love with our partners, just without the sexual attraction? It really isn't as off-piste as you are making it out to be. People can have life partners who are not sexual partners; it is not uncommon.
A bunch of people in this thread are repeatedly saying to you "this relationship is normal" and you are repeatedly replying "But I feel compelled to normalise it... by having sex!" I think your actual problem is that you have a mistaken, binary definition of love. There are several major theories of love, but the one you may be most interested in is Robert Sternberg's triarchic theory of love; what you are describing is companionate love vs. consummate love; it has everything but sexual passion.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:03 AM on June 25, 2012 [7 favorites]
A bunch of people in this thread are repeatedly saying to you "this relationship is normal" and you are repeatedly replying "But I feel compelled to normalise it... by having sex!" I think your actual problem is that you have a mistaken, binary definition of love. There are several major theories of love, but the one you may be most interested in is Robert Sternberg's triarchic theory of love; what you are describing is companionate love vs. consummate love; it has everything but sexual passion.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:03 AM on June 25, 2012 [7 favorites]
how to categorize our relationship
Sounds to me like you're "chosen family" for one another, and/or "companionate lovers". Google these and see if they smell right.
I mean, that is assuming, as you say, that you really want to stick your experiences and relationships in someone else's analytic categories. You may also find your life improves significantly if you can learn to enjoy -- even savour or prefer -- circumstances that defy categorization.
Personally, that is my favourite category.
posted by ead at 8:33 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sounds to me like you're "chosen family" for one another, and/or "companionate lovers". Google these and see if they smell right.
I mean, that is assuming, as you say, that you really want to stick your experiences and relationships in someone else's analytic categories. You may also find your life improves significantly if you can learn to enjoy -- even savour or prefer -- circumstances that defy categorization.
Personally, that is my favourite category.
posted by ead at 8:33 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Me bringing up sex was prompted by the same questions I am asking here; a confused exploration of how to categorize our relationship. I don't find her sexually attractive - well, objectively I guess I do, but I am a pretty solid Kinsey 6 - and my past attempts at being sexual with women ended up being very... boring for me (I just focused on them, didn't want to be touched, wasn't aroused, etc). Despite this, I feel this pressure (from myself? from others? I don't know) to normalize our relationship - which for some reason leads to feeling we should have sex.
I know this is said a lot in metafilter, but: therapy. You really do seem to be . . . hmm, aspiring? to heteronormative relationships. Perhaps you've internalized some of our society's homophobic attitudes and still deep down are want a traditional family structure. Perhaps you're really just a smidgen bi (wanting to pleasure women even if you don't want to be touched isn't the strictest Kinsey 6 I've ever heard of) and would be happier if you integrated that into your self-image. Perhaps you have low self esteem and it's really your fear of not being good enough for a geeky guy who will also want to do you that's getting in your way. It's really hard to tell. But the fact that you've tried sex with women repeatedly, that you've brought up sex with this woman even though you say you don't like it, that you really really seem to want a romantic pairing with her even though you're attracted to men suggests to me that this is something more complex than metafilter can address. I think therapy would help.
Honestly, rather than her getting in the way of your romantic relationships, I could more feasibly see you getting hurt if she found a boyfriend she wanted a more monogamous relationship with. I know you're both poly, but she's also 21, which is really really young and people generally often become a touch more traditional as they move through their twenties. I don't think she would hurt you intentionally, but it does seem like you're putting yourself out there in a big way. Casiotone for the Painfully Alone has a great song about this. Don't be Creedence! Keep dating and exploring new things. Enjoy your friendship, but don't hang every hope on Rachel. She's growing and living and changing, too. You're both young, and you have so much time to find a partner who is everything you desire.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:52 AM on June 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
I know this is said a lot in metafilter, but: therapy. You really do seem to be . . . hmm, aspiring? to heteronormative relationships. Perhaps you've internalized some of our society's homophobic attitudes and still deep down are want a traditional family structure. Perhaps you're really just a smidgen bi (wanting to pleasure women even if you don't want to be touched isn't the strictest Kinsey 6 I've ever heard of) and would be happier if you integrated that into your self-image. Perhaps you have low self esteem and it's really your fear of not being good enough for a geeky guy who will also want to do you that's getting in your way. It's really hard to tell. But the fact that you've tried sex with women repeatedly, that you've brought up sex with this woman even though you say you don't like it, that you really really seem to want a romantic pairing with her even though you're attracted to men suggests to me that this is something more complex than metafilter can address. I think therapy would help.
Honestly, rather than her getting in the way of your romantic relationships, I could more feasibly see you getting hurt if she found a boyfriend she wanted a more monogamous relationship with. I know you're both poly, but she's also 21, which is really really young and people generally often become a touch more traditional as they move through their twenties. I don't think she would hurt you intentionally, but it does seem like you're putting yourself out there in a big way. Casiotone for the Painfully Alone has a great song about this. Don't be Creedence! Keep dating and exploring new things. Enjoy your friendship, but don't hang every hope on Rachel. She's growing and living and changing, too. You're both young, and you have so much time to find a partner who is everything you desire.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:52 AM on June 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Oh, and at the very least: it sounds like she doesn't want to be with you in a committed sense anyway. Maybe some day you'll find a woman with whom to establish your very own Home at the End of the World. But I don't think Rachel is that girl. Sorry!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:55 AM on June 25, 2012
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:55 AM on June 25, 2012
Darling, you're over-fretting!
Last night my best long-term lady friend made a big laborious dinner for me and we watched TV and played videogames and hung out all night and talked about our feelings and then I called my currently-out-of-town husband on my way home. So, welcome!
Life is complicated and interesting and let it be. You're over-interrogating your life and your choices. You're doing what you want and living how you want; how great! Don't drive yourself to distraction and wreckage with this unnecessary navel-gazing, all of which, I would like to point out, I did completely and compulsively at your age. (At your age, my boyfriend was dating one of my best lady friends who was in the process of becoming one of my best boy friends, while I was dating one of his/her best buddies on the side, and some of us were having sex and some of us were having platonic love, and, you know: lots to interrogate at that age, but, try to enjoy the moment.)
PS You having some sex with some fellows would help.
PPS Always go read The Ethical Slut; those ideals work for relations that are not sexual as well.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 10:12 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Last night my best long-term lady friend made a big laborious dinner for me and we watched TV and played videogames and hung out all night and talked about our feelings and then I called my currently-out-of-town husband on my way home. So, welcome!
Life is complicated and interesting and let it be. You're over-interrogating your life and your choices. You're doing what you want and living how you want; how great! Don't drive yourself to distraction and wreckage with this unnecessary navel-gazing, all of which, I would like to point out, I did completely and compulsively at your age. (At your age, my boyfriend was dating one of my best lady friends who was in the process of becoming one of my best boy friends, while I was dating one of his/her best buddies on the side, and some of us were having sex and some of us were having platonic love, and, you know: lots to interrogate at that age, but, try to enjoy the moment.)
PS You having some sex with some fellows would help.
PPS Always go read The Ethical Slut; those ideals work for relations that are not sexual as well.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 10:12 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree with the general consensus that this is all fine and you shouldn't try to make it something else or feel bad about it, but I want to draw attention to this:
When her boyfriend drops the ball/ignores her feelings and she's sad, I find myself wanting to pick up the slack so that she still feels appreciated. She's remarked on a few occasions that "if [I'm] trying to make [Ben] look bad, [I'm] doing a good job" which is not my intent (even though I think she can do sooo much better).
Obviously it's not your conscious intent, but don't you think part of you is trying to show her you're better than "Ben," in fact that you're the best possible partner she could have? That's completely natural, since you're in love with her (apart from the sex thing), but you should think pretty seriously about it, because it could have some unpleasant consequences for both of you. Is it possible that your relationship will make it harder for her to find a man who can be both a sexual and a romantic partner for her, someone she can marry (if she's into formal marriage)? Is it possible that if she did find such a man, you would (unconsciously) resent it, maybe even try to sabotage it? After all, if she did get into such a relationship, it would probably diminish yours to some extent, even if you were still very good friends. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad; this is perfectly normal human stuff, it comes with the territory of being in love. But since you can't actually be her life partner (in that marriage sense), presumably (since you want what's best for her) you will want to head that scenario off at the pass and act in such a way as to be supportive of her no matter what, and that might involve stepping back from your "she can do sooo much better" feelings and asking to what extent you're going to have that reaction to anyone she gets involved with. The more you can analyze this for yourself, the better off both of you will be.
posted by languagehat at 11:07 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
When her boyfriend drops the ball/ignores her feelings and she's sad, I find myself wanting to pick up the slack so that she still feels appreciated. She's remarked on a few occasions that "if [I'm] trying to make [Ben] look bad, [I'm] doing a good job" which is not my intent (even though I think she can do sooo much better).
Obviously it's not your conscious intent, but don't you think part of you is trying to show her you're better than "Ben," in fact that you're the best possible partner she could have? That's completely natural, since you're in love with her (apart from the sex thing), but you should think pretty seriously about it, because it could have some unpleasant consequences for both of you. Is it possible that your relationship will make it harder for her to find a man who can be both a sexual and a romantic partner for her, someone she can marry (if she's into formal marriage)? Is it possible that if she did find such a man, you would (unconsciously) resent it, maybe even try to sabotage it? After all, if she did get into such a relationship, it would probably diminish yours to some extent, even if you were still very good friends. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad; this is perfectly normal human stuff, it comes with the territory of being in love. But since you can't actually be her life partner (in that marriage sense), presumably (since you want what's best for her) you will want to head that scenario off at the pass and act in such a way as to be supportive of her no matter what, and that might involve stepping back from your "she can do sooo much better" feelings and asking to what extent you're going to have that reaction to anyone she gets involved with. The more you can analyze this for yourself, the better off both of you will be.
posted by languagehat at 11:07 AM on June 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wait, I'm confused. You don't want your primary relationship to be non-sexual? THis is what I never got about American society, why the boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife relationship has to be the primary relationship. Most sexual relationships don't last; wouldn't you rather have someone who you are more close to to talk to when your primary sexual relationship ends? I think that's why people get so devastated when they break up with their SO, because it was their "main relationship" when your main relationship should ideally be someone who will still be there even if you're not having sex.
You are damn lucky.
posted by eq21 at 3:39 PM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
You are damn lucky.
posted by eq21 at 3:39 PM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
And you're worried about your "mainstream ideals" getting in the way?
Kids today!
(I kid, I kid.....)
In all honesty, you seem to have something that everyone wants. Lucky you! Friendships like that are one in a million. It's frustrating that it's not "the whole enchilada" in terms of your sexualities....BUT, you have a great thing here.
*There is nothing to feel guilty about. You both sound terrifically honest with each other. Guilt is for when you're being dishonest.
*People will make jokes and dumb comments. Ignore them.
*It's hard to envision a deep primary relationship is non-sexual....but maybe (and I say this gently) it's because you're young. There are lots of ways to be in the world with love and sex and friends. Enjoy this relationship, have boyfriends when you want them, and see where life takes you.
posted by pantarei70 at 7:49 PM on June 24, 2012 [10 favorites]