To poke or not to poke; that is the question.
May 8, 2012 3:35 PM
To poke or not to poke; that is the question...poked with acupuncture needles, that is.
I have a messed up back and neck from a fall in 2003 when I was in the Army, resulting in constant pain. The VA I go to outside Chicago just started up an acupuncture unit, and I was referred there by my pain clinic. When I was with the pain doctor we talked about stuff like rib mobilization (I have a separate upcoming appointment for this) and myofascial release, so I assumed this new acupuncture clinic was going to be less woo and more something physiological like dry needling (which I also have not had before).
My first appointment was today, though, and I'm not exactly confident. For the first round the doctor had me lie on my back and she placed needles on the inside of both of my Achilles tendons, the insides of both my knees, both my elbows, the backs of my hands near my pinky knuckle, and a single needle on the outside of my left foot. When she first stuck my right Achilles tendon my foot jerked as if I had banged a funny bone down there. Then she hooked up that needle and the two inner left leg needles to a TENS unit kind of thing and zapped those areas for ~10 minutes.
My first real misgivings started when she was setting up the above-mentioned needles. When I asked her what the needles would do she said that the points were channels connected to my organs and body parts and we were draining the pain energy through them. No, really.
The second round of needles was at the base of my skull and down my traps, none on my back, no TENS unit, for about 20 minutes.
Afterward she seemed honestly surprised that my neck didn't feel at least a little better, but acknowledged that this was the beginning of a long process.
So, balancing chakras and all that aside, and YANAD, how effective could this be? Was the needle that hit funny bone in my ankle a signal that this isn't exactly the best idea? I figure that at least the needles are sterile and I get travel pay for each of my appointments at the VA, and I'm really desperate for anything that might work, but don't want to bother if it's still just pixie dust.
I have a messed up back and neck from a fall in 2003 when I was in the Army, resulting in constant pain. The VA I go to outside Chicago just started up an acupuncture unit, and I was referred there by my pain clinic. When I was with the pain doctor we talked about stuff like rib mobilization (I have a separate upcoming appointment for this) and myofascial release, so I assumed this new acupuncture clinic was going to be less woo and more something physiological like dry needling (which I also have not had before).
My first appointment was today, though, and I'm not exactly confident. For the first round the doctor had me lie on my back and she placed needles on the inside of both of my Achilles tendons, the insides of both my knees, both my elbows, the backs of my hands near my pinky knuckle, and a single needle on the outside of my left foot. When she first stuck my right Achilles tendon my foot jerked as if I had banged a funny bone down there. Then she hooked up that needle and the two inner left leg needles to a TENS unit kind of thing and zapped those areas for ~10 minutes.
My first real misgivings started when she was setting up the above-mentioned needles. When I asked her what the needles would do she said that the points were channels connected to my organs and body parts and we were draining the pain energy through them. No, really.
The second round of needles was at the base of my skull and down my traps, none on my back, no TENS unit, for about 20 minutes.
Afterward she seemed honestly surprised that my neck didn't feel at least a little better, but acknowledged that this was the beginning of a long process.
So, balancing chakras and all that aside, and YANAD, how effective could this be? Was the needle that hit funny bone in my ankle a signal that this isn't exactly the best idea? I figure that at least the needles are sterile and I get travel pay for each of my appointments at the VA, and I'm really desperate for anything that might work, but don't want to bother if it's still just pixie dust.
Acupuncture is neat, but a lot of the theory behind it is stuff that isn't backed up by scientific study. If that's going to bother you significantly, you might as well not have acupuncture done.
If you're OK with the idea that "This might help, even if we're not sure why," I'd go for it. It can be really helpful. And like you said, you get travel pay, and it's not going to actually make you feel worse, right?
Lastly, the fact that your ankle twinged doesn't mean anything other than she probably hit a nerve with the needle.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:46 PM on May 8, 2012
If you're OK with the idea that "This might help, even if we're not sure why," I'd go for it. It can be really helpful. And like you said, you get travel pay, and it's not going to actually make you feel worse, right?
Lastly, the fact that your ankle twinged doesn't mean anything other than she probably hit a nerve with the needle.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:46 PM on May 8, 2012
Did you not know what acupuncture is?
I did, but as I said, I was hoping that since it was a program at an actual hospital they might have stripped out the woo parts and kept the working parts.
posted by Evilspork at 3:47 PM on May 8, 2012
I did, but as I said, I was hoping that since it was a program at an actual hospital they might have stripped out the woo parts and kept the working parts.
posted by Evilspork at 3:47 PM on May 8, 2012
I think acupuncture works great for some people, probably by stimulating/ over-stimulating nerves. I don't think acupuncturists have the faintest how it works though, they just follow the manual and tell you what they were told which is basically a nice story from the medieval period. If it works, good. If not, no loss.
posted by fshgrl at 3:47 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by fshgrl at 3:47 PM on May 8, 2012
The mass of evidence still indicates that there is no statistically significant difference between the pain relief of real acupuncture and sham / placebo acupuncture. This leads one to the conclusion that real acupuncture isn't a useful treatment. Now, the TENS treatment has somewhat more positive supporting evidence, but its use in back pain is still very controversial. Digging up the literature on TENS was pretty easy when I did so last year.
posted by introp at 3:57 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by introp at 3:57 PM on May 8, 2012
I was hoping that since it was a program at an actual hospital they might have stripped out the woo parts and kept the working parts.
These "parts" are unidentifiable and inseparable. That's what acupuncture is, I don't know what else to tell you. I mean, it's based on theories of energy meridians in the body. Now, when you're in chronic pain, a lot of people take a "hey it's worth a shot" approach, but as a methodology acupuncture is premised on things that are not really proven. If you're uncomfortable with giving it a crack despite the ambiguity, then I would just drop it and get some remedial massage or something
posted by smoke at 4:24 PM on May 8, 2012
These "parts" are unidentifiable and inseparable. That's what acupuncture is, I don't know what else to tell you. I mean, it's based on theories of energy meridians in the body. Now, when you're in chronic pain, a lot of people take a "hey it's worth a shot" approach, but as a methodology acupuncture is premised on things that are not really proven. If you're uncomfortable with giving it a crack despite the ambiguity, then I would just drop it and get some remedial massage or something
posted by smoke at 4:24 PM on May 8, 2012
> I'm really desperate for anything that might work, but don't want to bother if it's still just pixie dust
Well, the pixie dust might make you feel better, but yeah, that's pretty much all acupuncture is.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:25 PM on May 8, 2012
Well, the pixie dust might make you feel better, but yeah, that's pretty much all acupuncture is.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:25 PM on May 8, 2012
I don't know, I have thought it was all woo, until a friend had a dog undergo acupuncture and the dog seemed in noticeably less pain. Or at least moved better.
I've known two people that were also helped by acupuncture and would be inclined to give it a shot myself. I was against all woo as a young person, but I've become more open to it over the years.
posted by readery at 4:32 PM on May 8, 2012
I've known two people that were also helped by acupuncture and would be inclined to give it a shot myself. I was against all woo as a young person, but I've become more open to it over the years.
posted by readery at 4:32 PM on May 8, 2012
My husband has a messed-up back and neck too. His orthopedist (an MD) recommended acupuncture, as, according to him, neck pain is one of the few things that acupucture is proven to help. And it has been helpful--my husband's gone weekly for a year, feels better after every session, and is slowly getting better. He's not a woo person, so he just accepted that it might help and at the very least feels good (she combines the acu with massage). Good luck!
posted by Ollie at 4:44 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by Ollie at 4:44 PM on May 8, 2012
from readery's "pixie dust" link above: "Unanimously positive conclusions from more than one high-quality systematic review existed only for neck pain." This may be where the ortho got his information. So for us it was worth a shot, might be for you too.
posted by Ollie at 4:47 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by Ollie at 4:47 PM on May 8, 2012
I've gone to a low-woo acupuncturist (he does science research on acupuncture at the local uni) and have gotten good results in the beginning. It seemed to mostly help loosen muscles that had been over-used most of my life (lower back/hips for me). My guy, though, did a lot more needles/areas than what you got, but did not hook them up to anything. He did places like the ear, but also did right where my knots/problem spots were.
Can you try someone else? Perhaps different people have different techniques. Or can you go elsewhere (not sure how the VA coverage works)? It is fairly easy to research acupunture places online to see how woo they go.
posted by evening at 4:56 PM on May 8, 2012
Can you try someone else? Perhaps different people have different techniques. Or can you go elsewhere (not sure how the VA coverage works)? It is fairly easy to research acupunture places online to see how woo they go.
posted by evening at 4:56 PM on May 8, 2012
If you have pain and the VA is willing to pay for it, why wouldn't try acupuncture for awhile? It's been really helpful for lots of people and centuries of Chinese people.
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 6:45 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 6:45 PM on May 8, 2012
I was hoping that since it was a program at an actual hospital they might have stripped out the woo parts and kept the working parts.
Some non-western medicine practitioners are not afraid of the science. The latest on acupuncture is that it does indeed work, but that the particular sites don't make much difference. So accupuncture pretty much anywhere works about the same, although the "woo" can by itself have a strong and measurable benefit. Call it placebo, but hey placebos are the most effective medicine there is, factoring for risk vs benefit.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:57 PM on May 8, 2012
Some non-western medicine practitioners are not afraid of the science. The latest on acupuncture is that it does indeed work, but that the particular sites don't make much difference. So accupuncture pretty much anywhere works about the same, although the "woo" can by itself have a strong and measurable benefit. Call it placebo, but hey placebos are the most effective medicine there is, factoring for risk vs benefit.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:57 PM on May 8, 2012
Was the needle that hit funny bone in my ankle a signal that this isn't exactly the best idea?
This is likely de qi -- it's expected (and considered desirable). (The link is an abstract from those wild and crazy pixie dust purveyors at the Martinos Center for Biomedical Imaging, Department of Radiology, Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School). IANA(Acupuncturist) -- ask your practitioner about it if you have concerns.
posted by Wordwoman at 8:21 PM on May 8, 2012
This is likely de qi -- it's expected (and considered desirable). (The link is an abstract from those wild and crazy pixie dust purveyors at the Martinos Center for Biomedical Imaging, Department of Radiology, Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School). IANA(Acupuncturist) -- ask your practitioner about it if you have concerns.
posted by Wordwoman at 8:21 PM on May 8, 2012
I thought the latest on accupuncture boiled down to: the better the study, the less likely an effect. (For instance, you have to make sure the practitioner is not aware of whether they're in the sham condition, so they don't accidentally differ in their degree of woo-woo.)
posted by spbmp at 8:22 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by spbmp at 8:22 PM on May 8, 2012
YMMV but I've heard that acupuncture is something of a placebo, similar to an ineffective, "anti-aging," paraffin wax facial.
posted by lotusmish at 8:40 PM on May 8, 2012
posted by lotusmish at 8:40 PM on May 8, 2012
I am an acupuncturist (but IANYA) and where you described the needles (very well I might add) going in is a very standard treatment for neck pain - including the electric stimulation. On occasion, a needle bothers a skin pore or is placed too close to a nerve or is irritating on insertion. If that feeling does not go away quickly, please tell the acupuncturist so they can make the necessary adjustments. The needle will be taken out and another one inserted (just a millimeter away can make all the difference) to a less irritating point. An irritating needle does not ruin a treatment, especially if it is taken care of right away. And a response like a muscle jump or a funny bone feeling in your ankle does not indicate whether or not acupuncture will help with your neck pain.
I hope that the acupuncturist was open with you about progress - it is a 2000 year old medicine with lots of options. Your feedback can be helpful (I could move my head more side-to-side, the pain decreased for a couple days, or there was no change in my pain) as it can help the acupuncturist to determine what the next treatment will be (more of the same, a different technique, one area is better so it is time to move onto the next). After 3-4 treatments, most acupuncturists should be able to give you an estimate of how long you will need to be seen (or if this is not a good option for you). If an effective strategy is determined, the treatments have a cumulative effect and your acupuncturist is the best one to determine how often and how long. It is impossible for us on the internet to assess your neck (although almost 10 years of unresolved neck pain is not typically a one treatment fix) and make any comments about your healing process.
One of the confusing parts of acupuncture is that is an old medical paradigm that uses different words, philosophy, and ideas to describe the body, including this idea of meridians/channels that connect throughout your body. Keep in mind that these old words are being directly translated and that is how you get "draining out the pain." Now, this (like most descriptions of the body) can be re-explained in many different "western" style analogies that will be more limited in scope but perhaps more familiar? For example, instead of channels, think of your body as a bio-tensegritous system (from Buckminster Fuller's tensional integrity): if your neck is compensated it is pulling on your back muscles, bones and tendons in a certain way which the kink can then transfer through your hips, then legs, then feet. So you can put needles through out the kinks to "untwist" or "reset" the tension component/muscles and tendons. Most human bodies will make one of a couple similar "twist" patterns, there is logic to why your acupuncturist started you with that particular standard treatment.
There is nothing you, the patient, need to think, believe or be woo woo about to make acupuncture effective. My recommendation would be to go at least 3 more times to determine if this is a good pain treatment option for you.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 1:27 AM on May 9, 2012
I hope that the acupuncturist was open with you about progress - it is a 2000 year old medicine with lots of options. Your feedback can be helpful (I could move my head more side-to-side, the pain decreased for a couple days, or there was no change in my pain) as it can help the acupuncturist to determine what the next treatment will be (more of the same, a different technique, one area is better so it is time to move onto the next). After 3-4 treatments, most acupuncturists should be able to give you an estimate of how long you will need to be seen (or if this is not a good option for you). If an effective strategy is determined, the treatments have a cumulative effect and your acupuncturist is the best one to determine how often and how long. It is impossible for us on the internet to assess your neck (although almost 10 years of unresolved neck pain is not typically a one treatment fix) and make any comments about your healing process.
One of the confusing parts of acupuncture is that is an old medical paradigm that uses different words, philosophy, and ideas to describe the body, including this idea of meridians/channels that connect throughout your body. Keep in mind that these old words are being directly translated and that is how you get "draining out the pain." Now, this (like most descriptions of the body) can be re-explained in many different "western" style analogies that will be more limited in scope but perhaps more familiar? For example, instead of channels, think of your body as a bio-tensegritous system (from Buckminster Fuller's tensional integrity): if your neck is compensated it is pulling on your back muscles, bones and tendons in a certain way which the kink can then transfer through your hips, then legs, then feet. So you can put needles through out the kinks to "untwist" or "reset" the tension component/muscles and tendons. Most human bodies will make one of a couple similar "twist" patterns, there is logic to why your acupuncturist started you with that particular standard treatment.
There is nothing you, the patient, need to think, believe or be woo woo about to make acupuncture effective. My recommendation would be to go at least 3 more times to determine if this is a good pain treatment option for you.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 1:27 AM on May 9, 2012
Both of my grandparents get acupuncture for pain- my grandfather for back/shoulder/knee pain, my grandmother for extensive back pain. No one actually believed they were really getting acupuncture at first. They're not woo woo at all, and my grandfather can be a little grumpy about "weird medicine." But man, the difference between them before and after is incredible!
The acupuncturist did say that it usually takes about 4 or 5 sessions before you see markable improvement. My grandmother was all ready to give up on it after her 6th session when something just "clicked" while she was on the table. She actually jumped down from the table herself and could drive herself home! For a lady that has several compressed vertebre and extensive bone damage in her back, that's incredible. And my grandfather can now move his shoulders much better than he used to be able to.
I would remain slightly skeptical, go for a few more sessions and see how it works for you.
posted by shesaysgo at 3:42 AM on May 9, 2012
The acupuncturist did say that it usually takes about 4 or 5 sessions before you see markable improvement. My grandmother was all ready to give up on it after her 6th session when something just "clicked" while she was on the table. She actually jumped down from the table herself and could drive herself home! For a lady that has several compressed vertebre and extensive bone damage in her back, that's incredible. And my grandfather can now move his shoulders much better than he used to be able to.
I would remain slightly skeptical, go for a few more sessions and see how it works for you.
posted by shesaysgo at 3:42 AM on May 9, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Why do you sound so surprised? Did you not know what acupuncture is?
I'm not against the idea of it -- I know lots of people who seem to benefit from it, and I've always wanted to try it -- but it's not medicine in the way we typically think of medicine.
posted by hermitosis at 3:39 PM on May 8, 2012