H like Humor and Hurt
May 4, 2012 1:05 PM Subscribe
Hello Mefites. I need your perspective about my boyfriend's sense of humor and mine.
We met through our laughters. Laughing, jokes are a huge part of our relationship.
However :
He often says things like "you can't do a thing right" for example when I break a glass, or "you're a failure, I knew it" if I don't manage to carry something heavy.
He says this most of the time with a tone that is … I don't know… that says "I'm gently kidding you", and I laugh along with him.
But some other times I don't notice this tone -well, I'm deaf, it doesn't help :), and I get hurt.
When I got hurt I told him. This led to "you're overreacting", etc. Maybe was he honestly kidding me? How can I know? Should I totally trust him when he says such things?
I guess I must change. I wonder if I can get to the point I won't get upset by his comments.
When I feel good / strong, I say to myself : hey, this is a good opportunity to improve myself, to learn to let go of his comments, however fair they are / seem to be. After X years together I'll be a champion at letting go of stupid comments / half-funny comments / mockery (or what they seem to be to me).
It's maybe a good opportunity to build my self-esteem (which is low low low right now). Because of course when he tells me "you're a failure", it doesn't do good to me and, well, I guess it shouldn't. When I'll know, inside my heart, I'm not a failure despite him saying this (meaning it or not), well, I'll be in a pretty good place :)
Is this a good way to think? Or am I tricking myself somewhere?
I remember a Mefite saying a wonderful thing about having a calm, centered self so other people's behavior doesn't throw one into chaos. I guess I fail at this… Or is what he is saying obviously hurting?
My questions are :
- when I am hurt by what he says, should I tell him? Or should I think the best of what he said, and accept it was gentle kidding with no harm?
- is it a good strategy to bite the bullet and work on not getting upset anymore? Or am I doing myself more harm? (should I set boundaries to what he can say?)
thank you in advance for your answers!
We met through our laughters. Laughing, jokes are a huge part of our relationship.
However :
He often says things like "you can't do a thing right" for example when I break a glass, or "you're a failure, I knew it" if I don't manage to carry something heavy.
He says this most of the time with a tone that is … I don't know… that says "I'm gently kidding you", and I laugh along with him.
But some other times I don't notice this tone -well, I'm deaf, it doesn't help :), and I get hurt.
When I got hurt I told him. This led to "you're overreacting", etc. Maybe was he honestly kidding me? How can I know? Should I totally trust him when he says such things?
I guess I must change. I wonder if I can get to the point I won't get upset by his comments.
When I feel good / strong, I say to myself : hey, this is a good opportunity to improve myself, to learn to let go of his comments, however fair they are / seem to be. After X years together I'll be a champion at letting go of stupid comments / half-funny comments / mockery (or what they seem to be to me).
It's maybe a good opportunity to build my self-esteem (which is low low low right now). Because of course when he tells me "you're a failure", it doesn't do good to me and, well, I guess it shouldn't. When I'll know, inside my heart, I'm not a failure despite him saying this (meaning it or not), well, I'll be in a pretty good place :)
Is this a good way to think? Or am I tricking myself somewhere?
I remember a Mefite saying a wonderful thing about having a calm, centered self so other people's behavior doesn't throw one into chaos. I guess I fail at this… Or is what he is saying obviously hurting?
My questions are :
- when I am hurt by what he says, should I tell him? Or should I think the best of what he said, and accept it was gentle kidding with no harm?
- is it a good strategy to bite the bullet and work on not getting upset anymore? Or am I doing myself more harm? (should I set boundaries to what he can say?)
thank you in advance for your answers!
Ok, you don't have to change. If his tone or his style is not working for you, you've expressed this to him and he won't quit, you need to get a new boyfriend.
I was close to thirty before I really truly internalized that no one but me could accurately gauge if I was "overreacting" to something.
posted by stormygrey at 1:09 PM on May 4, 2012 [25 favorites]
I was close to thirty before I really truly internalized that no one but me could accurately gauge if I was "overreacting" to something.
posted by stormygrey at 1:09 PM on May 4, 2012 [25 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, tell him it bothers you!
He often says things like "you can't do a thing right" for example when I break a glass, or "you're a failure, I knew it"
I have a sarcastic sense of humor, but I would *never* say something like that to someone if I thought they might take it even a little seriously. Let alone a girlfriend!!
There's a time and a place for everything. I have said some of the most filthy, offensive jokes possible in my life, but I said them in a room full of close friends or professional comedy people.
It's very possible he assumes everyone "knows" he is "just kidding." Let him know it's hard for you to tell, and hopefully he'll be willing to change.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2012
He often says things like "you can't do a thing right" for example when I break a glass, or "you're a failure, I knew it"
I have a sarcastic sense of humor, but I would *never* say something like that to someone if I thought they might take it even a little seriously. Let alone a girlfriend!!
There's a time and a place for everything. I have said some of the most filthy, offensive jokes possible in my life, but I said them in a room full of close friends or professional comedy people.
It's very possible he assumes everyone "knows" he is "just kidding." Let him know it's hard for you to tell, and hopefully he'll be willing to change.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2012
Best answer: When he does it, call him on it, tell him you don't like it, and tell him not to do it again. If he persists or tells you you're too sensitive or that it's your fault, this book is for you: The Verbally Abusive Relationship: : How to Recognize It and How to Respond.
Oh, and by the way:
When I'll know, inside my heart, I'm not a failure despite him saying this (meaning it or not), well, I'll be in a pretty good place :)
The much more likely outcome is that by hearing again and again that you are a failure, you will internalize it and become even more insecure.
posted by Wordwoman at 1:12 PM on May 4, 2012 [19 favorites]
Oh, and by the way:
When I'll know, inside my heart, I'm not a failure despite him saying this (meaning it or not), well, I'll be in a pretty good place :)
The much more likely outcome is that by hearing again and again that you are a failure, you will internalize it and become even more insecure.
posted by Wordwoman at 1:12 PM on May 4, 2012 [19 favorites]
He often says things like "you can't do a thing right" for example when I break a glass, or "you're a failure, I knew it"
Sorry, your boyfriend is an asshole.
It sounds to me like he is simultaneously indulging his need to abuse you, and trying to cover it with a tone of gentle kidding. It's a pretty cowardly way of being aggressive and avoiding the "costs" of being uncivilized and cruel.
posted by jayder at 1:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [11 favorites]
Sorry, your boyfriend is an asshole.
It sounds to me like he is simultaneously indulging his need to abuse you, and trying to cover it with a tone of gentle kidding. It's a pretty cowardly way of being aggressive and avoiding the "costs" of being uncivilized and cruel.
posted by jayder at 1:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [11 favorites]
Best answer: When my partner says things like this, I ask him if he believes that.
Then I ask him why he would say things to me that he doesn't believe.
The comments that I find hurtful are almost nonexistent now, because he can see why I find them confusing and hurtful. I want to believe everything he says about me. If he says unkind things but doesn't mean them, how does that change the validity of the kind things he says?
The psychology/sociology term you're looking for is Cognitive Dissonance. You know, currently, that you are not a failure.
But, hearing it repeatedly from someone you love and trust is either going to erode your love and trust in that person, or it's going to erode your self esteem.
And a great deal of the time, it's the self esteem that goes out the window, while the love and trust actually gets built up. And that building up of love and trust in a person who started with seemingly innocuous statements leads slowly to situations where far worse things are said in far more hurtful tones.
This innocuous "you're a failure" bullshit is often a testing ground/groomingi tactic for the really truly insidious and dangerous behavior that we think of when we hear about domestic violence.
Please, do not tolerate this crap.
posted by bilabial at 1:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [34 favorites]
Then I ask him why he would say things to me that he doesn't believe.
The comments that I find hurtful are almost nonexistent now, because he can see why I find them confusing and hurtful. I want to believe everything he says about me. If he says unkind things but doesn't mean them, how does that change the validity of the kind things he says?
The psychology/sociology term you're looking for is Cognitive Dissonance. You know, currently, that you are not a failure.
But, hearing it repeatedly from someone you love and trust is either going to erode your love and trust in that person, or it's going to erode your self esteem.
And a great deal of the time, it's the self esteem that goes out the window, while the love and trust actually gets built up. And that building up of love and trust in a person who started with seemingly innocuous statements leads slowly to situations where far worse things are said in far more hurtful tones.
This innocuous "you're a failure" bullshit is often a testing ground/groomingi tactic for the really truly insidious and dangerous behavior that we think of when we hear about domestic violence.
Please, do not tolerate this crap.
posted by bilabial at 1:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [34 favorites]
Look, if you have to "learn to let go" or let it roll off or develop a thicker skin with your boyfriend, that's not a great sign.
I mean, from your weird boss, or your mean cousin, or your irritating neighbor who you sometimes have to deal with if there's a noise issue? Sure. Thicker skin, water off a duck's back, whatever. There's nothing you can do but put up with such people.
But your boyfriend is supposed to love you. It's one thing if you guys have an occasional misunderstanding about tone, but all in all he's supposed to be loving toward you. If he can't be, to the extent that this is a major issue in your relationship, why is he still your boyfriend?
posted by Sara C. at 1:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [10 favorites]
I mean, from your weird boss, or your mean cousin, or your irritating neighbor who you sometimes have to deal with if there's a noise issue? Sure. Thicker skin, water off a duck's back, whatever. There's nothing you can do but put up with such people.
But your boyfriend is supposed to love you. It's one thing if you guys have an occasional misunderstanding about tone, but all in all he's supposed to be loving toward you. If he can't be, to the extent that this is a major issue in your relationship, why is he still your boyfriend?
posted by Sara C. at 1:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Whether it is meant as a joke or not, your discomfort is real.
Asking him to stop it should be enough for him to stop it. His 'joke' doesn't make you feel good, and that's enough reason for him to stop.
Whether or not the 'joke' is objectively funny or not is totally irrelevant.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:18 PM on May 4, 2012 [17 favorites]
Asking him to stop it should be enough for him to stop it. His 'joke' doesn't make you feel good, and that's enough reason for him to stop.
Whether or not the 'joke' is objectively funny or not is totally irrelevant.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:18 PM on May 4, 2012 [17 favorites]
I took my husband's teasing kind of personally when I first met him (and it's not even as direct as this). It's not like I don't have a sense of humor, and a sometimes a self-deprecating one - and some teasing I don't mind, but some just feels mean. Anyway, I tell him when it bothers me. After a while, he began to tease me less (and more mindfully) and I began to take it less seriously. Also as you continue dating for a while you probably won't be trying so hard to be funny to the other person, so maybe he will quit cracking jokes all the time.
posted by beyond_pink at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2012
posted by beyond_pink at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2012
Hmm.
Maybe I'm off base, but this kind of "you're a failure/I'm a failure" joking is pretty common in today's humor landscape. Assuming good faith, I would hazard to guess that the boyfriend is just joking and doesn't realize when something he says hurts. It's a pretty common hazard in relationships and it takes some time to work out what is and isn't okay.
Tell him when you're upset, he'll learn to be a bit more careful.
posted by Think_Long at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm off base, but this kind of "you're a failure/I'm a failure" joking is pretty common in today's humor landscape. Assuming good faith, I would hazard to guess that the boyfriend is just joking and doesn't realize when something he says hurts. It's a pretty common hazard in relationships and it takes some time to work out what is and isn't okay.
Tell him when you're upset, he'll learn to be a bit more careful.
posted by Think_Long at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If you say to him "When you tease me like that, it hurts my feelings, and I wish you wouldn't do it" and his response is basically "Suck it up, buttercup," that's kind of shitty, isn't it?
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:21 PM on May 4, 2012 [16 favorites]
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:21 PM on May 4, 2012 [16 favorites]
There was something here about this new French psychological abuse law.
One of the "crimes" it identifies is "repeated denigration in a domestic situation."
There is something to this. By domestic situation, it means inside your home, or your bedroom. These are sacred places, and special rules apply there, like the common law "castle doctrine" that permits extraordinary measures to preserve your right of privacy and territory within your home.
To hear a non-specific and repeated phrase, like, "this is why you will always be a loser," in the context of your most intimate space, can be very insidiously damaging.
Tell him to stop it, or go away.
posted by StickyCarpet at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
One of the "crimes" it identifies is "repeated denigration in a domestic situation."
There is something to this. By domestic situation, it means inside your home, or your bedroom. These are sacred places, and special rules apply there, like the common law "castle doctrine" that permits extraordinary measures to preserve your right of privacy and territory within your home.
To hear a non-specific and repeated phrase, like, "this is why you will always be a loser," in the context of your most intimate space, can be very insidiously damaging.
Tell him to stop it, or go away.
posted by StickyCarpet at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
To be more clear about my earlier comment:
I don't think people who are loving to each other, ever say "you're a failure," or "you can't do anything right."
Some people, when they get frustrated by something another person does, want to punish that person. They know they shouldn't do it, but punishing the other person is an outlet for their rage. It's an impulse control thing.
What I see happening in his comments is two impulses at war: (1) his rage and his consequent desire to punish you for frustrating him; and (2) his sense of social boundaries and decorum. Trust me, he KNOWS it hurts you to hear that you are a failure and can't do anything right. And he is TRYING to hurt you. But he is protecting himself from accusations of being cruel or having poor impulse control by couching it as humor.
posted by jayder at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
I don't think people who are loving to each other, ever say "you're a failure," or "you can't do anything right."
Some people, when they get frustrated by something another person does, want to punish that person. They know they shouldn't do it, but punishing the other person is an outlet for their rage. It's an impulse control thing.
What I see happening in his comments is two impulses at war: (1) his rage and his consequent desire to punish you for frustrating him; and (2) his sense of social boundaries and decorum. Trust me, he KNOWS it hurts you to hear that you are a failure and can't do anything right. And he is TRYING to hurt you. But he is protecting himself from accusations of being cruel or having poor impulse control by couching it as humor.
posted by jayder at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Tell him when you're upset, he'll learn to be a bit more careful.
Sounds like the OP has done exactly that, and the boyfriend has responded with "You're just overreacting." Hurting someone's feelings by accident is one thing; being told you're hurting someone's feelings and turning it back on them is quite another.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sounds like the OP has done exactly that, and the boyfriend has responded with "You're just overreacting." Hurting someone's feelings by accident is one thing; being told you're hurting someone's feelings and turning it back on them is quite another.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Also -- it doesn't matter if his intent is humorous if you are hurt by what he says. Maybe he is "just kidding!" when he puts you down. Doesn't matter -- if you don't like it, you are entitled to ask him to stop. If he persists, it's not "just kidding!" anymore. It means he's okay with hurting you.
posted by Wordwoman at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Success story: I personally find this humor kinda funny. Tee hee!
My lovely SO doesn't like it as much. She told me, and I felt like a jerk, because in reality, she's great! Then I did it again, and she told me she didn't like it again. And then maybe one more time, by which point I felt like a super-jerk, because not only is she great, she told me not to do this repeatedly. So I stopped!
Now we are getting married.
If you tell him you don't like it, and he doesn't stop, you should stop liking him.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:29 PM on May 4, 2012 [28 favorites]
My lovely SO doesn't like it as much. She told me, and I felt like a jerk, because in reality, she's great! Then I did it again, and she told me she didn't like it again. And then maybe one more time, by which point I felt like a super-jerk, because not only is she great, she told me not to do this repeatedly. So I stopped!
Now we are getting married.
If you tell him you don't like it, and he doesn't stop, you should stop liking him.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:29 PM on May 4, 2012 [28 favorites]
Here's your script:
"You're a failure, I knew it."
"You know what? You need to get some new material."
"I'm just trying to be funny."
"I know. But the first time, it was funny. Now it's boring. Mix it up. Think of something else."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:30 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
"You're a failure, I knew it."
"You know what? You need to get some new material."
"I'm just trying to be funny."
"I know. But the first time, it was funny. Now it's boring. Mix it up. Think of something else."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:30 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
You can' do a thing right! Do you mean that applies also to when you became my boyfriend?
posted by Postroad at 1:33 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 1:33 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: when you tell someone that something they say or do hurts you and rather than discontinuing the behavior that hurts you, they dismiss it and tell you that you are over-reacting, that is, at best, disrespectful, and at worst, asshole-ish. only you can decide which it is.
posted by violetk at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by violetk at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
Best answer: There are people in the world who express their love for each other by teasing. There are other people for whom this does not work. It doesn't necessarily make him a bad person for being part of group A, or you oversensitive for being part of group B. It's just how it is.
But at the same time, just because he really only means to tease (assuming the best here), that doesn't mean you have to just take it. In a relationship, both people need to compromise. So I think you should sit down some time when you're not already upset, when he hasn't said anything like that recently, and have an honest conversation with him.
You say "Hey, it hurts my feelings when you tease like that. I know you're just kidding and you don't mean it, but it still hurts. Could you try not to do that? And while you're trying not to do it, I'll try not to let it get to me so much."
And if he's a good guy, he'll say, "I'm really sorry for hurting your feelings. I didn't mean it seriously, at all. I will try not to tease you so much." He probably won't get perfect about this right away, but you'll be able to tell if he's trying.
And if he blows you off or seems to humor you but then doesn't change his ways, then I think you should start thinking about whether you're really compatible as a couple. Maybe your styles are just too different. Maybe he can't change.
(FWIW, my partner and I are like you, and try really hard to never say anything critical about each other even in a teasing way. I don't think I could handle a partner who was the teasing type, even if they loved me very much. But who knows? Maybe if you tell him how much it's bothering you, you'll be able to work your way to a compromise.)
posted by marginaliana at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
But at the same time, just because he really only means to tease (assuming the best here), that doesn't mean you have to just take it. In a relationship, both people need to compromise. So I think you should sit down some time when you're not already upset, when he hasn't said anything like that recently, and have an honest conversation with him.
You say "Hey, it hurts my feelings when you tease like that. I know you're just kidding and you don't mean it, but it still hurts. Could you try not to do that? And while you're trying not to do it, I'll try not to let it get to me so much."
And if he's a good guy, he'll say, "I'm really sorry for hurting your feelings. I didn't mean it seriously, at all. I will try not to tease you so much." He probably won't get perfect about this right away, but you'll be able to tell if he's trying.
And if he blows you off or seems to humor you but then doesn't change his ways, then I think you should start thinking about whether you're really compatible as a couple. Maybe your styles are just too different. Maybe he can't change.
(FWIW, my partner and I are like you, and try really hard to never say anything critical about each other even in a teasing way. I don't think I could handle a partner who was the teasing type, even if they loved me very much. But who knows? Maybe if you tell him how much it's bothering you, you'll be able to work your way to a compromise.)
posted by marginaliana at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Sarcastic people often need to be reminded that the risk of sarcasm is being taken seriously.
posted by rhizome at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [15 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [15 favorites]
Best answer: > When I got hurt I told him. This led to "you're overreacting", etc.
This is a bad sign. I don't like this kind of "teasing" myself (and to my mind it is always hostile, no matter what excuses the teasers use) and would never be involved with someone who habitually interacted that way, but if two people both enjoy it and neither gets hurt, more power to them. But your situation is not like that; you are being told to put up with something that is making an already bad situation ("my self-esteem ... is low low low right now") worse, and there's no reason why you should have to. Tell him to stop; if he doesn't react by stopping, as Admiral Haddock did, you should leave. You deserve better.
posted by languagehat at 1:43 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
This is a bad sign. I don't like this kind of "teasing" myself (and to my mind it is always hostile, no matter what excuses the teasers use) and would never be involved with someone who habitually interacted that way, but if two people both enjoy it and neither gets hurt, more power to them. But your situation is not like that; you are being told to put up with something that is making an already bad situation ("my self-esteem ... is low low low right now") worse, and there's no reason why you should have to. Tell him to stop; if he doesn't react by stopping, as Admiral Haddock did, you should leave. You deserve better.
posted by languagehat at 1:43 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
Seconding Wordwoman's recommendation of The Verbally Abusive Relationship. What you're experiencing is textbook verbal abuse, which is why explaining that it hurts you doesn't make it stop. Don't explain. The instant he says something like this, tell him sharply to stop it. Then leave, and do something fun without him.
posted by jon1270 at 1:44 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 1:44 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
There are people who would find that funny. Possibly your boyfriend is among them. But you're not, and the person you come home to shouldn't be there making remarks that hurt you, even if those remarks wouldn't hurt them. Maybe you need a thicker skin in general for other things, but this is not the way to get it.
He could just really not get that this upsets you or he could be doing this because it upsets you.
You should tell him. Each time. Then if it doesn't stop, you should walk away from him.
Your script can be something like:
"Please don't say that. It upsets me."
"You're overreacting. I'm just kidding."
"Please don't say that even as a joke."
He should then work on saying it less, and catching it and apologising for saying it when he slips up.
posted by jeather at 1:44 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
He could just really not get that this upsets you or he could be doing this because it upsets you.
You should tell him. Each time. Then if it doesn't stop, you should walk away from him.
Your script can be something like:
"Please don't say that. It upsets me."
"You're overreacting. I'm just kidding."
"Please don't say that even as a joke."
He should then work on saying it less, and catching it and apologising for saying it when he slips up.
posted by jeather at 1:44 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Okay, what I *think* is going on here... is your boyfriend "hearing"? (Do we still use that phrase?) If so, I think you're having a gulf of communication that's pretty common in all kinds of people, including deaf and hearing. Irony (when things mean the opposite of what they explicitly say) and sarcasm are incredibly reliant upon tone of voice, etc. You know this, I bet!
I am *pretty sure* that your boyfriend is not actually suggesting that you are a failure or the worst. I am *pretty sure* this is a "kidding habit" that he has. It sounds like an annoying one to you, and you should probably smack him down on it, because you don't like it.
But I'm concerned that it's leading you into a maelstrom of self-doubt? And I'm concerned that he's not understanding that he's miscommunicating (at best)? It's time to sit down and hash this out. He may literally not understand that you don't know he's joking. (He also may not be joking, we can't rule that out.)
Going forward, when a man upsets you or irritates you, I hope you'll let him know in no uncertain terms. I bet if he loves you, he'll be upset that he hurt you. If he is not upset by that, well... that's bad.
Finally: You would not BELIEVE the rude, vulgar, sarcastic things I say to my partner. He knows that I am a loudmouth and that I am kidding and that I think this is funny (sometimes it is) and that I love him. We understand each other. (And when we don't, we talk about it.) People are all different across this spectrum, but this is NOT an issue for you to conform to HIM. It's an issue for you two to work out together.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 1:50 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
I am *pretty sure* that your boyfriend is not actually suggesting that you are a failure or the worst. I am *pretty sure* this is a "kidding habit" that he has. It sounds like an annoying one to you, and you should probably smack him down on it, because you don't like it.
But I'm concerned that it's leading you into a maelstrom of self-doubt? And I'm concerned that he's not understanding that he's miscommunicating (at best)? It's time to sit down and hash this out. He may literally not understand that you don't know he's joking. (He also may not be joking, we can't rule that out.)
Going forward, when a man upsets you or irritates you, I hope you'll let him know in no uncertain terms. I bet if he loves you, he'll be upset that he hurt you. If he is not upset by that, well... that's bad.
Finally: You would not BELIEVE the rude, vulgar, sarcastic things I say to my partner. He knows that I am a loudmouth and that I am kidding and that I think this is funny (sometimes it is) and that I love him. We understand each other. (And when we don't, we talk about it.) People are all different across this spectrum, but this is NOT an issue for you to conform to HIM. It's an issue for you two to work out together.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 1:50 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I dated someone with this kind of humor for a long time. At the beginning, when our relationship was shiny and new, he didn't make such mean jokes at my expense. Know why? Because he probably knew they MIGHT not go over so well, and when you've just started dating someone you like, you're really careful not to do anything that might offend them.
The jokes really began after we'd both fallen off our respective pedestals and settled in to the relationship and were living together. And at first I objected when he answered some observation of mine with, "Yes, but that's because you're a little bit crazy," or when he said, "You're scatterbrained," or whatever. And he would protest that of course he didn't mean it seriously, jeez, wasn't it obvious that he loved me and liked me? Why couldn't I have some faith in him?
And so I tried to wrestle down my own hurt feelings and really trust him as I knew you NEED to trust your partner in order to have a healthy relationship.
Thing is: his little jokes here and there eroded my ability to do that.
(People above are recommending you look at books on verbal abuse. I have read the one most recommended on here. Some of it did feel very familiar. That said, I would never characterize our relationship, or him, as abusive. And to this day, I believe he did love me. But -- and here's the important part -- he didn't love me in the way I needed. And he would no doubt say the same about me. Sharing the same sense of humor? That's damned important.)
Summary: If the jokes don't feel funny to you, your boyfriend should stop making these jokes with you and save them for his buds who DO find that kind of humor funny. Otherwise, it will damage your relationship. And that is far more important than his "right" to exercise this aspect of his sense of humor.
By the way, I'm now with someone who is very, very funny, sometimes professionally. But I've never heard him crack a joke that was mean, and I can't tell you how attractive I find that. It's just...lovely to feel so *safe* that way with him.
posted by artemisia at 1:56 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
The jokes really began after we'd both fallen off our respective pedestals and settled in to the relationship and were living together. And at first I objected when he answered some observation of mine with, "Yes, but that's because you're a little bit crazy," or when he said, "You're scatterbrained," or whatever. And he would protest that of course he didn't mean it seriously, jeez, wasn't it obvious that he loved me and liked me? Why couldn't I have some faith in him?
And so I tried to wrestle down my own hurt feelings and really trust him as I knew you NEED to trust your partner in order to have a healthy relationship.
Thing is: his little jokes here and there eroded my ability to do that.
(People above are recommending you look at books on verbal abuse. I have read the one most recommended on here. Some of it did feel very familiar. That said, I would never characterize our relationship, or him, as abusive. And to this day, I believe he did love me. But -- and here's the important part -- he didn't love me in the way I needed. And he would no doubt say the same about me. Sharing the same sense of humor? That's damned important.)
Summary: If the jokes don't feel funny to you, your boyfriend should stop making these jokes with you and save them for his buds who DO find that kind of humor funny. Otherwise, it will damage your relationship. And that is far more important than his "right" to exercise this aspect of his sense of humor.
By the way, I'm now with someone who is very, very funny, sometimes professionally. But I've never heard him crack a joke that was mean, and I can't tell you how attractive I find that. It's just...lovely to feel so *safe* that way with him.
posted by artemisia at 1:56 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Oh, dear. Sometimes, these things are hard to judge without being. Personally, I don't like that kind of teasing in romantic relationships and close friendships, and though I think sarcasm is awesome and rely on it all the time, I don't think it should ever be used in a way that attacks who someone is. An example:
Setting: He is working on a project in the backyard. Immediately after declaring it a success, a pipe, previously unknown to all present, bursst. A geyser begins shooting up from behind the pentunias.
Bad Joke: "Shows what you know, honeykins! Looks like you can't get a thing right."
Better Joke:* "Ack! Water from the ground! A sign of the apocalypse like the bees and the blood and the horses! Quick - where'd you put the wrench and the bible!"
I don't see the utility of making a jab at him, even if the situation is pretty funny. That said, I know some people kinda differ on this, and have different tolerances for what is funny or acceptable. However, this: When I got hurt I told him. This led to "you're overreacting."
I don't like this.
Try to really reflect back: did you react in a dramatic, accusatory way? Did you yell? In that case, maybe you did put him on the spot. But if you just said, "please don't" or "oh no! that hurt my feelings," then the only response that I can think of that would be appropriate is: "It wasn't my intent; I'm sorry!"
Followed by him not making that joke again.
* This may not work if someone is a pious Christian. Sorry for any offense.
posted by vivid postcard at 1:56 PM on May 4, 2012
Setting: He is working on a project in the backyard. Immediately after declaring it a success, a pipe, previously unknown to all present, bursst. A geyser begins shooting up from behind the pentunias.
Bad Joke: "Shows what you know, honeykins! Looks like you can't get a thing right."
Better Joke:* "Ack! Water from the ground! A sign of the apocalypse like the bees and the blood and the horses! Quick - where'd you put the wrench and the bible!"
I don't see the utility of making a jab at him, even if the situation is pretty funny. That said, I know some people kinda differ on this, and have different tolerances for what is funny or acceptable. However, this: When I got hurt I told him. This led to "you're overreacting."
I don't like this.
Try to really reflect back: did you react in a dramatic, accusatory way? Did you yell? In that case, maybe you did put him on the spot. But if you just said, "please don't" or "oh no! that hurt my feelings," then the only response that I can think of that would be appropriate is: "It wasn't my intent; I'm sorry!"
Followed by him not making that joke again.
* This may not work if someone is a pious Christian. Sorry for any offense.
posted by vivid postcard at 1:56 PM on May 4, 2012
A family member of mine is very sarcastic, but he would NEVER say "you're a failure, I knew it" if I struggled to lift something. Most people wouldn't do this. This is wrong even if someone does it for laughs.
The reality is that there is truth behind sadness and there is also truth behind laughter. So, his comments might reflect how he really feels.
Because, the common reaction if you see someone struggling is to ask them if they need help, tell them that they can put the box down and that you'll both carry it, or the most sarcastic response should be "that's a light load!" but even that would result in annoyance from the other person.
This is just an example of what I'm assuming are several other incidents. You shouldn't change who you are. You don't need to develop a thicker skin. You need to have an honest and serious conversation with very limited laughter. Tell him exactly how you feel, don't hold back. Relationships require open and honest communication.
And the next time he says something upsetting, don't laugh with him. By laughing with him, you are overriding the times when you got upset because he thinks that it's okay to say these jokes since he sees that you are laughing and what he assumes is WITH him. When internally, you still feel upset and understandably so. Respond with a comment like: "You know, it really hurts my feelings when you say comments like that. Comments that are used to make fun of me. Personally, I know that they are not true, but they might reflect how you feel about me. This is not okay. Please stop saying jokes like these."
And, if he still can't respect your feelings then it's time to get a new partner. You will find someone that can make you laugh, that supports you, and understands you much better than he does.
posted by livinglearning at 1:57 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
The reality is that there is truth behind sadness and there is also truth behind laughter. So, his comments might reflect how he really feels.
Because, the common reaction if you see someone struggling is to ask them if they need help, tell them that they can put the box down and that you'll both carry it, or the most sarcastic response should be "that's a light load!" but even that would result in annoyance from the other person.
This is just an example of what I'm assuming are several other incidents. You shouldn't change who you are. You don't need to develop a thicker skin. You need to have an honest and serious conversation with very limited laughter. Tell him exactly how you feel, don't hold back. Relationships require open and honest communication.
And the next time he says something upsetting, don't laugh with him. By laughing with him, you are overriding the times when you got upset because he thinks that it's okay to say these jokes since he sees that you are laughing and what he assumes is WITH him. When internally, you still feel upset and understandably so. Respond with a comment like: "You know, it really hurts my feelings when you say comments like that. Comments that are used to make fun of me. Personally, I know that they are not true, but they might reflect how you feel about me. This is not okay. Please stop saying jokes like these."
And, if he still can't respect your feelings then it's time to get a new partner. You will find someone that can make you laugh, that supports you, and understands you much better than he does.
posted by livinglearning at 1:57 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: There is teasing and there is what your boyfriend is saying. It doesn't really sound like gentle affectionate teasing to me. I would draw his attention to the fact that it hurts you every time he does it. You don't have to cry or get angry, just say something calmly. Affection shouldn't make the other person feel bad.
Also I'm a sarcastic person so I'd probably reply with something like "Well you fail at being a supportive boyfriend so we are perfect for each other."
posted by wwax at 1:58 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
Also I'm a sarcastic person so I'd probably reply with something like "Well you fail at being a supportive boyfriend so we are perfect for each other."
posted by wwax at 1:58 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
Best answer: P.S. As some are pointing out, teasing is a common way to establish and maintain intimacy in a relationship. I'd like to point out that while I'm game to be teased, I'm not game to be mocked or derided, and the difference between the two is the presence or absence of affection. Teasing can feel like mockery when affection seems to be lacking in other ways. Is he consistently showing you love in ways that you recognize? If not, you may want to work on that. Here, a book called The Five Love Languages -- another Mefi favorite -- can be very useful.
posted by artemisia at 1:59 PM on May 4, 2012
posted by artemisia at 1:59 PM on May 4, 2012
I don't like teasing. It doesn't sound like you do either. You've told our boyfriend you don't like it and yet he still does it, even says you're the one with the problem. Next time it happens:
Jerk: Look, you failed.
You: Look, you're an asshole.
I'd do it every, single time until he stopped "teasing" you.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:08 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Jerk: Look, you failed.
You: Look, you're an asshole.
I'd do it every, single time until he stopped "teasing" you.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:08 PM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I would call him on it and try to get him to stop, and seriously consider walking if he doesn't wise up to the effect this is having on you. You're not overreacting.
The script is basically:
Him: "I'm only kidding."
You: "Okay. Then by asking you to stop, I'm not asking you to change an essential part of yourself, because all it is TO YOU is a joke, while TO ME, it's something extremely hurtful."
or
You: "Why is it more important to you to make these jokes than to treat me in a way that I feel respected and loved?"
It would really bother me to be with someone whose idea of humor places something with even a whiff of denigration so close to the forefront of their mind, and I personally can't think of a less imaginative form of humor than insulting people when they make mistakes.
But in any case, any time you tell your partner they're doing something that hurts you, and they put the blame on you instead of engaging in a constructive conversation, or stopping the behavior (especially if they're the one who's saying the behavior is insignificant--that should mean it should be easy for them to stop), it's a bad sign.
posted by alphanerd at 2:11 PM on May 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
The script is basically:
Him: "I'm only kidding."
You: "Okay. Then by asking you to stop, I'm not asking you to change an essential part of yourself, because all it is TO YOU is a joke, while TO ME, it's something extremely hurtful."
or
You: "Why is it more important to you to make these jokes than to treat me in a way that I feel respected and loved?"
It would really bother me to be with someone whose idea of humor places something with even a whiff of denigration so close to the forefront of their mind, and I personally can't think of a less imaginative form of humor than insulting people when they make mistakes.
But in any case, any time you tell your partner they're doing something that hurts you, and they put the blame on you instead of engaging in a constructive conversation, or stopping the behavior (especially if they're the one who's saying the behavior is insignificant--that should mean it should be easy for them to stop), it's a bad sign.
posted by alphanerd at 2:11 PM on May 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
My ex was like your boyfriend, making disparaging comments and them claiming she was just teasing. Right before she broke up with me she alluded that there was in fact some truth in what she said. I was very surprised. Apparently she was frustrated in our relationship and ended up channeling it in this subtly passive-aggressive way. So make sure your issues are about differences in sense of humor and not about the relationship itself.
posted by Orchestra at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Orchestra at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
>- when I am hurt by what he says, should I tell him?
Yes.
Or should I think the best of what he said, and accept it was gentle kidding with no harm?
No.
Think of it this way-- if he's saying this reflexively, as he seems to be doing... and you're no longer enjoying it (if indeed you ever did)... he's being really lazy.
As CPB suggested upthread, he needs to work a little harder; it's as though he's expecting canned studio laughter and a ha-ha musical cue, from a 50s sitcom.
posted by darth_tedious at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2012
Yes.
Or should I think the best of what he said, and accept it was gentle kidding with no harm?
No.
Think of it this way-- if he's saying this reflexively, as he seems to be doing... and you're no longer enjoying it (if indeed you ever did)... he's being really lazy.
As CPB suggested upthread, he needs to work a little harder; it's as though he's expecting canned studio laughter and a ha-ha musical cue, from a 50s sitcom.
posted by darth_tedious at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2012
I do a lot of sarcastic teasing. I say a lot of things (for humor!) that I absolutely am NOT serious about, and most of the time it works out fine (i.e. the other person does it right back at me, everyone knows it's a joke, everyone giggles and moves on).
I have dated two people who were not OK with this.
One of them didn't tell me it bothered him, and would instead go off and sulk. It took me a long time to figure out that these were connected (since he was sarcastic, too...he could dish it out but not take it, apparently). His feelings got hurt, and I ended up annoyed, because damnit, I don't want to actually hurt anyone's feelings. If he just talked to me instead of getting all mopey, it would have been fine.
The other one told me he didn't like it pretty quickly. He said something like, "please don't say [that thing I said]...it makes me feel bad," short and simple, and that was totally fine. (It was kind of a drag, though, because I had to tamp down a personality trait of mine that's pretty well ingrained, but that's a call your boyfriend will have to make.)
Long story short, if you don't like it, for chrissakes SAY something. Say something now, don't wait for a joking opportunity to come up. Just say what's on your mind. I promise, if he cares about you at all, that it will be OK.
But I do want to say...if you joke this way with him, cut it out NOW. It's not fair for one person to be sarcastic if the other one can't be. The couple that snarks together stays together.
posted by phunniemee at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
I have dated two people who were not OK with this.
One of them didn't tell me it bothered him, and would instead go off and sulk. It took me a long time to figure out that these were connected (since he was sarcastic, too...he could dish it out but not take it, apparently). His feelings got hurt, and I ended up annoyed, because damnit, I don't want to actually hurt anyone's feelings. If he just talked to me instead of getting all mopey, it would have been fine.
The other one told me he didn't like it pretty quickly. He said something like, "please don't say [that thing I said]...it makes me feel bad," short and simple, and that was totally fine. (It was kind of a drag, though, because I had to tamp down a personality trait of mine that's pretty well ingrained, but that's a call your boyfriend will have to make.)
Long story short, if you don't like it, for chrissakes SAY something. Say something now, don't wait for a joking opportunity to come up. Just say what's on your mind. I promise, if he cares about you at all, that it will be OK.
But I do want to say...if you joke this way with him, cut it out NOW. It's not fair for one person to be sarcastic if the other one can't be. The couple that snarks together stays together.
posted by phunniemee at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
At best, a joke made at the expense of someone else is a lower form of humor. If he says he's not being mean, inform him he's not being funny either.
posted by klarck at 2:19 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by klarck at 2:19 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yeah, the important thing is that you told him that he's hurting your feelings and he said you're overreacting.
In my house, if *I* broke a glass, *I* would say, "Gee, this is why we can't have nice things." My boyfriend would say something like, "Let me get the broom."
Before this, I've been in relationships where awful, awful, horrible things were said followed by, "I'm only joking." Sometimes I still hear his voice say, "You're so dumb. You're so stupid. Don't be such a baby. I'm going to hit you. I'm going to beat you until you're black and blue. You're such a retard. And you're overreacting and you're stupid / dumb / immature for overreacting. I'm only joking." And I don't have to fake laugh anymore, yay!
Show him this thread -- if he realizes he's wrong to disregard your stated feelings, then he's a keeper.
posted by mibo at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2012
In my house, if *I* broke a glass, *I* would say, "Gee, this is why we can't have nice things." My boyfriend would say something like, "Let me get the broom."
Before this, I've been in relationships where awful, awful, horrible things were said followed by, "I'm only joking." Sometimes I still hear his voice say, "You're so dumb. You're so stupid. Don't be such a baby. I'm going to hit you. I'm going to beat you until you're black and blue. You're such a retard. And you're overreacting and you're stupid / dumb / immature for overreacting. I'm only joking." And I don't have to fake laugh anymore, yay!
Show him this thread -- if he realizes he's wrong to disregard your stated feelings, then he's a keeper.
posted by mibo at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2012
Best answer: I'll quote myself from a not-very-similar situation:
It makes me sad when people ask if they're overreacting to something because it tells me that they cannot trust themselves - almost always, it turns out they were betrayed by someone else when they were young. [...] It doesn't matter what you call it [...] your feelings are real and valid, and the result it has had on your life is real. You do not need to justify your reaction. Your feelings - whatever they are - are OKAY.
and
Argh, it just makes me sad when women are afraid others will think they're overreacting. You're not. You have your personal boundaries and you are perfectly entitled to them. You're also perfectly entitled to enforce them in a tactful manner. I'd say what olinerd suggested, and if he doesn't stop, ratchet it up a notch to "gee, I really feel uncomfortable when you say/do X and that's why I don't hang out with you as much anymore." This way he knows that if he wants to hang out with you, he has to stop that behavior. If he gets upset he gets upset. Who cares. Your feelings are more important than his right to say icky* stuff.
posted by desjardins at 2:32 PM on May 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
It makes me sad when people ask if they're overreacting to something because it tells me that they cannot trust themselves - almost always, it turns out they were betrayed by someone else when they were young. [...] It doesn't matter what you call it [...] your feelings are real and valid, and the result it has had on your life is real. You do not need to justify your reaction. Your feelings - whatever they are - are OKAY.
and
Argh, it just makes me sad when women are afraid others will think they're overreacting. You're not. You have your personal boundaries and you are perfectly entitled to them. You're also perfectly entitled to enforce them in a tactful manner. I'd say what olinerd suggested, and if he doesn't stop, ratchet it up a notch to "gee, I really feel uncomfortable when you say/do X and that's why I don't hang out with you as much anymore." This way he knows that if he wants to hang out with you, he has to stop that behavior. If he gets upset he gets upset. Who cares. Your feelings are more important than his right to say icky* stuff.
posted by desjardins at 2:32 PM on May 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
He's not calling you a failure because he thinks that's funny, he's trying to create a space where you can express your feelings of low self-esteem in a safe, unserious environment. Guys do this all the time - they broach touchy subjects and work through them with humor. If you joke about what you're ashamed about, it can help you take it less seriously.
posted by AlsoMike at 2:45 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by AlsoMike at 2:45 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
tl;dr but your boyfriend's an Invalidator. Read Nasty People by Jay Carter and then DTMF.
posted by Rash at 2:48 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Rash at 2:48 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I was in a relationship with someone who made jokes like that as well. It really got to me, and I told him so, and he always said that I was overreacting, that it was just a joke, etc. I tried to remind myself that every time he made these jokes but the truth was, I just really wasn't comfortable with it. It just went a bit too far, and started to feel like he was doing it on purpose to push my buttons despite knowing that it made me uncomfortable.
So finally I told him to cut it out. He wasn't happy about that, and made a HUGE fuss about how I was a killjoy and he couldn't be himself around me and WTF was really wrong with me, anyway? That was when I knew we just weren't compatible communicators. Years down the line we broke up for very different reasons, but looking back I can say I am so freaking glad that I don't have to deal with that joking behavior anymore, but I wish I had acted on it sooner and more directly. I should have paid more attention to his protestations when I told him to stop.
All of this to say: I totally agree with others that you need to tell him to quit it, and you need to evaluate how he reacts to it. If he really loves and respects you, he WILL get that you telling him stop means that the joke is absolutely not welcome anymore. If he doesn't love and respect you, he will complain that your demand is unreasonable or he will say you're still taking him too seriously or he will try to shift the blame to you in some other way, and that is when you need to walk away.
posted by joan_holloway at 3:04 PM on May 4, 2012
So finally I told him to cut it out. He wasn't happy about that, and made a HUGE fuss about how I was a killjoy and he couldn't be himself around me and WTF was really wrong with me, anyway? That was when I knew we just weren't compatible communicators. Years down the line we broke up for very different reasons, but looking back I can say I am so freaking glad that I don't have to deal with that joking behavior anymore, but I wish I had acted on it sooner and more directly. I should have paid more attention to his protestations when I told him to stop.
All of this to say: I totally agree with others that you need to tell him to quit it, and you need to evaluate how he reacts to it. If he really loves and respects you, he WILL get that you telling him stop means that the joke is absolutely not welcome anymore. If he doesn't love and respect you, he will complain that your demand is unreasonable or he will say you're still taking him too seriously or he will try to shift the blame to you in some other way, and that is when you need to walk away.
posted by joan_holloway at 3:04 PM on May 4, 2012
I agree with AlsoMike. This probably isn't serious to him in the least, but if you bring it up the way some have recommended, it will become a big deal.
Either accept that he is the way he is or don't accept it and break up. Those are basically your choices.
posted by tacodave at 3:24 PM on May 4, 2012
Either accept that he is the way he is or don't accept it and break up. Those are basically your choices.
posted by tacodave at 3:24 PM on May 4, 2012
Best answer: I guess I must change.
Well, no. I find teasing a drain to be around constantly. Other people love it (banter).
You tell him it offends you, you see what his response is. If it's reasonable (i.e. he will stop calling you a failure) then fine; but if he teases you more, mocks you for asking him to do something fairly basic (considering your feelings), then reevaluate your relationship.
The guys who I hear teasing their girlfriends about how much of an idiot they are also have no problems teasing their girlfriends about their weight or their emotional problems in public (same jokey tone). I personally feel that consistently calling someone a failure, even in a joking way, does undermine a person and a relationship in the long run because it's trying to control a relationship in a very childish kind of way.
The other thing is your SO should be your "safe house" from all the other people out there - you need to be on the same team and not constantly having to emotionally buffer yourself against your own SO.
posted by mleigh at 3:47 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Well, no. I find teasing a drain to be around constantly. Other people love it (banter).
You tell him it offends you, you see what his response is. If it's reasonable (i.e. he will stop calling you a failure) then fine; but if he teases you more, mocks you for asking him to do something fairly basic (considering your feelings), then reevaluate your relationship.
The guys who I hear teasing their girlfriends about how much of an idiot they are also have no problems teasing their girlfriends about their weight or their emotional problems in public (same jokey tone). I personally feel that consistently calling someone a failure, even in a joking way, does undermine a person and a relationship in the long run because it's trying to control a relationship in a very childish kind of way.
The other thing is your SO should be your "safe house" from all the other people out there - you need to be on the same team and not constantly having to emotionally buffer yourself against your own SO.
posted by mleigh at 3:47 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: My husband and I tease each other a lot. It's very playful and often very sarcastic. There are times when his sarcasm is too much or too harsh, or I'm in an emotionally sensitive space and his "jokes" hurt.
I've found that it goes much better for both of us when I tell him "ouch, that hurt" rather than "you're being mean." Focusing on I statements rather than You statements keeps him from getting defensive with the "I didn't mean it that way why can't you take a joke" thing. And when my comments are too much for him he tells me the same thing.
However we never call each other idiots, or stupid, or failures.
posted by rhapsodie at 4:45 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I've found that it goes much better for both of us when I tell him "ouch, that hurt" rather than "you're being mean." Focusing on I statements rather than You statements keeps him from getting defensive with the "I didn't mean it that way why can't you take a joke" thing. And when my comments are too much for him he tells me the same thing.
However we never call each other idiots, or stupid, or failures.
posted by rhapsodie at 4:45 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: > Either accept that he is the way he is or don't accept it and break up. Those are basically your choices.
This is nonsense. In this very thread you have seen examples of people who have changed their behavior because their partners didn't like it. And as for AlsoMike:
> He's not calling you a failure because he thinks that's funny, he's trying to create a space where you can express your feelings of low self-esteem in a safe, unserious environment. Guys do this all the time - they broach touchy subjects and work through them with humor.
No, guys say they're doing that when most of the time they're just being jerks. Don't try to give false reassurance.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
This is nonsense. In this very thread you have seen examples of people who have changed their behavior because their partners didn't like it. And as for AlsoMike:
> He's not calling you a failure because he thinks that's funny, he's trying to create a space where you can express your feelings of low self-esteem in a safe, unserious environment. Guys do this all the time - they broach touchy subjects and work through them with humor.
No, guys say they're doing that when most of the time they're just being jerks. Don't try to give false reassurance.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]
In my world, saying something like, "You can never do anything right can you?" to someone who has just dropped something is a way of saying, "Hey, don't worry about it. It's really no big deal" without having to be earnest or sincere or something. Which would be totally awkward. Your boyfriend isn't a New Zealander is he?
posted by sarahw at 5:45 PM on May 4, 2012
posted by sarahw at 5:45 PM on May 4, 2012
Best answer: - when I am hurt by what he says, should I tell him? Or should I think the best of what he said, and accept it was gentle kidding with no harm?
You know, you being hurt and him kidding aren't mutually exclusive.
My wife has a shirt that I would always make the same joke when she wore it. She recently told me she didn't like the joke and it hurt her feelings. It wasn't a particularly nasty joke, and we tease each other all the time, but it still bugged her. So I stopped.
So yes, you should tell him, it sounds like you have already. Keep doing it (sometimes people take a little while to get a message). If he keeps saying "you're over sensitive" you should ask yourself, "do I like him enough to put up with the fact that he likes being able to make stupid jokes more than he likes not hurting me?" because that's the choice he'll have made.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
You know, you being hurt and him kidding aren't mutually exclusive.
My wife has a shirt that I would always make the same joke when she wore it. She recently told me she didn't like the joke and it hurt her feelings. It wasn't a particularly nasty joke, and we tease each other all the time, but it still bugged her. So I stopped.
So yes, you should tell him, it sounds like you have already. Keep doing it (sometimes people take a little while to get a message). If he keeps saying "you're over sensitive" you should ask yourself, "do I like him enough to put up with the fact that he likes being able to make stupid jokes more than he likes not hurting me?" because that's the choice he'll have made.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:35 PM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
No, guys say they're doing that when most of the time they're just being jerks. Don't try to give false reassurance.
Most of the time? Or always, no matter what?
The fact is that male-dominated spaces are full of this kind of thing. Just go to Reddit and you'll see threads all about venting shameful things like "What's the worst thing you ever did? What do you secretly do that you should have grown out of? What's the most embarrassing thing you were ever caught doing? What's the worst date you've been on?" Mostly men, mocking and being mocked for their own social awkwardness, loneliness, being losers and other weaknesses.
Doesn't mean the OP's boyfriend should just continue doing that. But if you can't imagine why someone with good intentions would say stuff like that, that says more about your skill as an observer of the range of human behavior that it does about anything else.
posted by AlsoMike at 6:42 PM on May 4, 2012
Most of the time? Or always, no matter what?
The fact is that male-dominated spaces are full of this kind of thing. Just go to Reddit and you'll see threads all about venting shameful things like "What's the worst thing you ever did? What do you secretly do that you should have grown out of? What's the most embarrassing thing you were ever caught doing? What's the worst date you've been on?" Mostly men, mocking and being mocked for their own social awkwardness, loneliness, being losers and other weaknesses.
Doesn't mean the OP's boyfriend should just continue doing that. But if you can't imagine why someone with good intentions would say stuff like that, that says more about your skill as an observer of the range of human behavior that it does about anything else.
posted by AlsoMike at 6:42 PM on May 4, 2012
Yeah, it doesn't mean he's being a secret abusive asshole. I'm a woman with four sisters and we grew up being total dicks to each other for laughs. We're extremely close and loyal to one another to this day. Similarly, my boyfriend and I have the same sense of humor, and we just roll with being pretend assholes to each other, complete with "man, I knew you were a fuck-up, just not how bad" style jabs. BUT, if it bothers you and it's not a behavior you want to get used to, you have every right to talk to him about it or draw a line in the sand.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:54 PM on May 4, 2012
posted by stoneandstar at 9:54 PM on May 4, 2012
Best answer: As someone with more than a couple exes who proclaimed "You're overreacting!" when I objected to their borderline humor, I'm really alarmed at some of the dismissive attitudes being exhibited here. The phrase "You're overreacting!" is the ultimate, horrible, do not pass go, do not collect $200 meanie trump card. Because any protests you make to prove otherwise - that you are acting rationally - plays right into the screechy harpy framework that the "You're overreacting!" canard provides the foundation for.
If the teaser truly thinks the other person is overreacting AND also values the relationship, they could go about it by saying, "Hmm, you reacted more strongly to this than I expected or I'm used to. What gives?" That opens the option to further discussion, rather than shutting it down with one-way declarations on what the standard of humor shall be in the relationship.
posted by mostly vowels at 10:53 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
If the teaser truly thinks the other person is overreacting AND also values the relationship, they could go about it by saying, "Hmm, you reacted more strongly to this than I expected or I'm used to. What gives?" That opens the option to further discussion, rather than shutting it down with one-way declarations on what the standard of humor shall be in the relationship.
posted by mostly vowels at 10:53 PM on May 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
When I got hurt I told him. This led to "you're overreacting", etc. Maybe was he honestly kidding me? How can I know? Should I totally trust him when he says such things?
It's hard to know what the situation is from your write up, whether he's a decent sort of guy with a bit of stupid banter who is trying to use it just then to reinforce the pair bond or a guy who's going to be an abusive husband. Some couples use use obscenities as casual endearments so this stuff tricky to diagnose remotely.
When you've got an hour for some clear thinking, and you're not hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, spend a while analyzing your relationship on a sheet of paper:
* does he support your goals?
* does he keep up his side of the partnership regarding housework, laundry, etc?
* is he generally respectful and compassionate when he's interacting with other people, like waiters, peers, etc.
* is he controlling / distant / etc?
...
* does he demonstrate contempt for you other situations, through words, actions, or omissions?
This last one's the important one. If he's cutting you down when you finish a painting / tell him about your day / make plans for a nice outing / etc. then he's a jerk and you need to leave him. But if he's not demonstrating contempt for you with this stuff, then the "you just broke a glass -> you're a failure" nonsense is just inane banter; a pattern of habit that he's in that happens to be cutting you off at the knees.
Still needs clearing up, mind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell him / write him this: "Honey, I know you like teasing me, but you've been doing that by making statements that imply you feel contempt for me. Do you feel contempt for me? Because contempt is like acid for relationships. I love you right now, but if you keep making these little contemptuous digs, there's a chance we might not be together in five years.
Could you think about this, and decide if you're going to keep telling me I'm a failure? The joke isn't very funny any more."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Try keeping a small paper notebook. Every time he says "you're a failure" add a tickmark to the "you're a failure" entry, which is right above the "you're overreacting" entry. He should catch on quickly.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:09 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's hard to know what the situation is from your write up, whether he's a decent sort of guy with a bit of stupid banter who is trying to use it just then to reinforce the pair bond or a guy who's going to be an abusive husband. Some couples use use obscenities as casual endearments so this stuff tricky to diagnose remotely.
When you've got an hour for some clear thinking, and you're not hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, spend a while analyzing your relationship on a sheet of paper:
* does he support your goals?
* does he keep up his side of the partnership regarding housework, laundry, etc?
* is he generally respectful and compassionate when he's interacting with other people, like waiters, peers, etc.
* is he controlling / distant / etc?
...
* does he demonstrate contempt for you other situations, through words, actions, or omissions?
This last one's the important one. If he's cutting you down when you finish a painting / tell him about your day / make plans for a nice outing / etc. then he's a jerk and you need to leave him. But if he's not demonstrating contempt for you with this stuff, then the "you just broke a glass -> you're a failure" nonsense is just inane banter; a pattern of habit that he's in that happens to be cutting you off at the knees.
Still needs clearing up, mind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell him / write him this: "Honey, I know you like teasing me, but you've been doing that by making statements that imply you feel contempt for me. Do you feel contempt for me? Because contempt is like acid for relationships. I love you right now, but if you keep making these little contemptuous digs, there's a chance we might not be together in five years.
Could you think about this, and decide if you're going to keep telling me I'm a failure? The joke isn't very funny any more."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Try keeping a small paper notebook. Every time he says "you're a failure" add a tickmark to the "you're a failure" entry, which is right above the "you're overreacting" entry. He should catch on quickly.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:09 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: BUT, if it bothers you and it's not a behavior you want to get used to, you have every right to talk to him about it or draw a line in the sand.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:54 AM on May 5 [+] [!]
Right. The OP has done that.
The jabs between your sisters and you are mutually understood as allowable and funny. The situation is not parallel. He's already been informed that it's hurtful to his partner.
Nobody here is guaranteeing that he's headed down the secret abusive asshole slope at this moment. But enough of us have tumbled down that hill to say, "hmmm, sure has a lot in common with the beginning of the relationships where I found myself getting smacked around. Please be careful with your heart."
I was lucky enough to have a woman friend point the pattern out to me when it started, so when it got bad I didn't think I was crazy. not to put too fine a point on it, but everyone else was telling me he was a great guy and we were lucky to have each other. If not for the one person who told me I deserve as much respect in a relationship as I want, I'd still be with a guy who started w jabs about my clumsiness and ended up 8 months later with much worse.
posted by bilabial at 4:14 AM on May 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 12:54 AM on May 5 [+] [!]
Right. The OP has done that.
The jabs between your sisters and you are mutually understood as allowable and funny. The situation is not parallel. He's already been informed that it's hurtful to his partner.
Nobody here is guaranteeing that he's headed down the secret abusive asshole slope at this moment. But enough of us have tumbled down that hill to say, "hmmm, sure has a lot in common with the beginning of the relationships where I found myself getting smacked around. Please be careful with your heart."
I was lucky enough to have a woman friend point the pattern out to me when it started, so when it got bad I didn't think I was crazy. not to put too fine a point on it, but everyone else was telling me he was a great guy and we were lucky to have each other. If not for the one person who told me I deserve as much respect in a relationship as I want, I'd still be with a guy who started w jabs about my clumsiness and ended up 8 months later with much worse.
posted by bilabial at 4:14 AM on May 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: > But if you can't imagine why someone with good intentions would say stuff like that, that says more about your skill as an observer of the range of human behavior that it does about anything else.
Oh, please. I can imagine more human behavior than you can possibly imagine. But you seem to have forgotten that we're not talking about a "male-dominated space" or Reddit, we're talking about a particular relationship, one where the male is saying unpleasant, insulting things and when called on it saying "you're overreacting." To many of us, this is a very familiar pattern that bodes ill for the relationship. You're free to disagree and take the guy's side, but don't pretend that you know this is just guys horsin' around and bein' guys, because you don't. The boyfriend is not on Reddit or in the corner bar when he does this, he is with the woman he supposedly loves, and he is treating her badly. If he won't stop, he's a jerk, end of story. (Which does not mean he's some kind of Evil Psychopathic Abuser, for pete's sake, it just means he's not right for this woman.)
posted by languagehat at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh, please. I can imagine more human behavior than you can possibly imagine. But you seem to have forgotten that we're not talking about a "male-dominated space" or Reddit, we're talking about a particular relationship, one where the male is saying unpleasant, insulting things and when called on it saying "you're overreacting." To many of us, this is a very familiar pattern that bodes ill for the relationship. You're free to disagree and take the guy's side, but don't pretend that you know this is just guys horsin' around and bein' guys, because you don't. The boyfriend is not on Reddit or in the corner bar when he does this, he is with the woman he supposedly loves, and he is treating her badly. If he won't stop, he's a jerk, end of story. (Which does not mean he's some kind of Evil Psychopathic Abuser, for pete's sake, it just means he's not right for this woman.)
posted by languagehat at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
niak, I don't know your boyfriend. All I can say is that he might be picking up on your low self-esteem, and is trying to get you to joke about it, which is a common way that guys help each other with their own weaknesses. So for him, it might be a way of caring. If this is his motivation, knowing this might change how you feel about his comments, but if not, then by all means ask him to stop.
As rhapsodie says, if he feels he has good intentions, and you tell him (or imply) he's a cruel person, he's going to focus on defending himself and not on how you are feeling. This can come out as "You're overreacting!"
Some people believe that only an abuser would say that. As advice givers, we sleep better at night believing that our advice is "scientific" -- he said X, therefore he's a criminal or an abuser and you should leave -- but this is paternalistic. You should use your judgment.
posted by AlsoMike at 12:24 PM on May 5, 2012
As rhapsodie says, if he feels he has good intentions, and you tell him (or imply) he's a cruel person, he's going to focus on defending himself and not on how you are feeling. This can come out as "You're overreacting!"
Some people believe that only an abuser would say that. As advice givers, we sleep better at night believing that our advice is "scientific" -- he said X, therefore he's a criminal or an abuser and you should leave -- but this is paternalistic. You should use your judgment.
posted by AlsoMike at 12:24 PM on May 5, 2012
I'm like you, and my boyfriend has this sense of humor. I eventually resorted to "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Now, for me it's like on the Sims game? Banter grows comfortable and builds warmth regardless of content.
This all assumes that the undercurrent here is love. If it is, then I'm at least one person who used to think this was the worst form of humor and now doesn't mind it. You might try some sarcastic rejoinders and see if you like it. Someone above offered "well you fail at being sportive, so we're perfect for each other." I'd add "I successfully smashed this glass, didn't I?"
posted by salvia at 4:25 PM on May 5, 2012
This all assumes that the undercurrent here is love. If it is, then I'm at least one person who used to think this was the worst form of humor and now doesn't mind it. You might try some sarcastic rejoinders and see if you like it. Someone above offered "well you fail at being sportive, so we're perfect for each other." I'd add "I successfully smashed this glass, didn't I?"
posted by salvia at 4:25 PM on May 5, 2012
Best answer: I'm really sorry - but for your own benefit I think you should consider the possibility that your boyfriend is deliberately trying to upset you. It's extremely common for women with 'low low low' self-esteem to end up in relationships with men who treat them badly. Those men are secretly insecure too, and they're tearing down the woman's self-esteem to try to boost up their own (not that the whole thing couldn't occur with the genders reversed).
It's not as though you haven't told him how you feel - you have and he accused you of 'overreacting'. I think how a partner responds when you bring up a concern in the relationship can often be hugely indicative of the extent to which they actually have your best interests at heart. If your partner always dismisses or ridicules your concerns, that's not a good sign.
I think the fact that you appear to be hesistant in even considering setting boundaries probably makes you more likely to be taken advantage of. You shouldn't just blindly accept that your boyfriend's behaviour was 'gentle kidding with no harm' - since this may well not be the case! Lots of women unconsciously perpetuate abusive relationships by continually excusing away the guy's behaviour in their own head, and convincing themselves it was nothing despite mounting evidence.
What worries me most of all is that you seem to be viewing your boyfriend's behaviour as some kind of challenge from life about how to develop a thicker skin. You're making your reaction the problem when the problem is actually his behaviour.
You're essentially saying 'I'm being treated badly so I guess it's my responsibility to train myself not to feel pain, even if it takes years'. You could just go out with a guy who doesn't continually cause you pain in the first place!
Coping with horrible behaviour for years on end doesn't normally boost your self-esteem, it normally does the opposite!
posted by Fairisle at 10:58 AM on May 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
It's not as though you haven't told him how you feel - you have and he accused you of 'overreacting'. I think how a partner responds when you bring up a concern in the relationship can often be hugely indicative of the extent to which they actually have your best interests at heart. If your partner always dismisses or ridicules your concerns, that's not a good sign.
I think the fact that you appear to be hesistant in even considering setting boundaries probably makes you more likely to be taken advantage of. You shouldn't just blindly accept that your boyfriend's behaviour was 'gentle kidding with no harm' - since this may well not be the case! Lots of women unconsciously perpetuate abusive relationships by continually excusing away the guy's behaviour in their own head, and convincing themselves it was nothing despite mounting evidence.
What worries me most of all is that you seem to be viewing your boyfriend's behaviour as some kind of challenge from life about how to develop a thicker skin. You're making your reaction the problem when the problem is actually his behaviour.
You're essentially saying 'I'm being treated badly so I guess it's my responsibility to train myself not to feel pain, even if it takes years'. You could just go out with a guy who doesn't continually cause you pain in the first place!
Coping with horrible behaviour for years on end doesn't normally boost your self-esteem, it normally does the opposite!
posted by Fairisle at 10:58 AM on May 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Folks please take comments directed only at other users to MeMail please, thank you
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:35 PM on May 7, 2012
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:35 PM on May 7, 2012
Response by poster: Wow, you gave me perspective… very different from the one I had! I'm so thankful for all your answers, insights, comments.
Thank you Admiral Haddock for sharing the point of view of a-boyfriend-who-likes-this-kind-of-humour-but-whose-girlfriend-doesn't-like.
I was crying while reading all your answers… Knowing I was right to feel hurt by this kind of "teasing", discovering that it might lead to more dangerous behavior…
Because we're so supportive to each other, because he takes the broom after telling me "you're a failure" when I break a glass, because he tells me he loves me 3 times a day and because he would help me no matter what, I'm tempted to think that, for now, his hurtful comments were a lack of carefulness.
Yesterday I told him calmly and firmly that some of his "jokes" hurt me. He was sorry this could really hurt me, that he could hurt me, and told me he would make a big effort to stop this. I'm feeling much better now.
Having all your comments in mind will hopefully help me have a healthier relationship with my boyfriend, but will also help me take the best decision if he doesn't change his behavior.
posted by niak at 3:50 AM on May 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
Thank you Admiral Haddock for sharing the point of view of a-boyfriend-who-likes-this-kind-of-humour-but-whose-girlfriend-doesn't-like.
I was crying while reading all your answers… Knowing I was right to feel hurt by this kind of "teasing", discovering that it might lead to more dangerous behavior…
Because we're so supportive to each other, because he takes the broom after telling me "you're a failure" when I break a glass, because he tells me he loves me 3 times a day and because he would help me no matter what, I'm tempted to think that, for now, his hurtful comments were a lack of carefulness.
Yesterday I told him calmly and firmly that some of his "jokes" hurt me. He was sorry this could really hurt me, that he could hurt me, and told me he would make a big effort to stop this. I'm feeling much better now.
Having all your comments in mind will hopefully help me have a healthier relationship with my boyfriend, but will also help me take the best decision if he doesn't change his behavior.
posted by niak at 3:50 AM on May 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
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yes.
Or should I think the best of what he said, and accept it was gentle kidding with no harm?
also yes. these are not mutually exclusive things. he probably doesn't mean anything by it (though no doubt some people will be along shortly to tell you he's 'gaslighting' you), but that doesn't mean you're wrong to be hurt by it. tell him. if you tell him and he still does it, then you've got a more difficult decision to make.
posted by modernnomad at 1:09 PM on May 4, 2012 [4 favorites]