Walk like a scam, fast as you can....

April 30, 2012 1:09 PM

I know there are car selling scams. Are there car buying scams? Is this a scam?

My daughter-in-law is selling this car. The car is in Los Angeles.

A man in Seattle contacted her and offered $4500. She said she wouldn't hold the car for him because she wanted to sell it over this last weekend but that didn't happen. He called her today and asked if the car was sold and she said no. He said he would like to find a flight and buy the car tonight. He said he would pay cash.

She called me for advice. I suggested calling the Auto Club and the local police for information on how to make sure this wasn't a scam. I even suggested meeting him in the parking lot of the police station if at all. Two very red flags:

1. I asked if he had a Nigerian accent (no flames please). She said he had an accent and it might be Nigerian (no flames again please!) and he also told her that he was buying his first car.

2. He has asked no questions about the car. None.

Fast forward to: She says she and my son are picking this guy up at LAX tonight at 8:15!

If it looks like a scam, and smells like a scam, it's a scam. Right? But how? What am I missing?

posted by snowjoe to grab bag (60 answers total)

Picking him up? Why not meet him there with the car nearby? He gives cash, you give keys he drives off. If he's just stepped off a plane he's about as safe as a person is going to get (you'd have to see him step off the plane to be sure, I suppose).

I am not aware of any scams buying stuff where the person pays cash. If he wants to pay with a money order or cashier's checks that is probably a scam. I suppose it could be counterfeit money but that's kind of a stretch. Actually, it's kind of a stretch in general if he's willing to fly somewhere and meet you - surely there are cars being sold in the personals wherever he lives.

Looking for nigerian accents is a waste of your time, scams of the "nigerian" type (which is not this... the nigerian scams originated as bank transfer fraud) are now performed by people of all nations.
posted by RustyBrooks at 1:13 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

There are absolutely car buying scams. In general, they rely on the buyer asking to pay with a check or money order that's much larger than the purchase price of the car, and they having the seller reimburse them for the difference. The check is, of course, no good, and so the buyer walks away with both the goods and extra cash. The seller has a bounced check and bank fees.

Contacting the police is definitely not a bad idea, but as long as he does indeed pay her in cash, I have a hard time seeing how it's a scam. But the fact that he's willing to fly from Seattle to LA to purchase a car really does smell like a scam.
posted by duien at 1:15 PM on April 30, 2012 [4 favorites]

Well, one way in which it could be a scam is that the cash could be counterfeit. Or he could show up with a cashier's check or something instead of cash and then try to convince your daughter-in-law to sell the car anyway. Not sure why he'd have to fly across the country, although it might make it harder to catch him if he skips town immediately after the scam.

Not saying that this is what is happening, just trying to think of how this could be a scam. On preview, pretty much what has been said above. It does seem odd that he would fly from Seattle to LA to buy the car sight unseen, no questions asked. She should be careful and she sould make sure that she is willing to walk away from the deal if he proposes any dealst hat seem even slightly fishy.
posted by Scientist at 1:18 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

Just because she's picking him up at LAX doesn't mean he arrived on a plane.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 1:20 PM on April 30, 2012 [30 favorites]

Did she ask anything about him? Did they have a bit of a social interaction? Did she get a feel for example, that he is culturally from Seattle (hipstery, fisherman, etc.) That is where you can get a lot of information from. I would be really leery of picking up a total stranger from the airport, for one thing. If she does it, the car should not be parked at their house. He should not have their address. They should not walk around with the cash. They should not be alone with him and the cash. They should not take a cashier's check because at the last minute, he couldn't get the cash. They should make sure he actually gets off an airplane. They should bring one more scary looking person with them. Etc.

It still sounds very odd, but, like you, I am not sure in what way.
posted by Vaike at 1:20 PM on April 30, 2012

Could be money laundering, which isn't a scam per se, as you'd actually get the money.
posted by griphus at 1:20 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

Scam. No one buys a car without asking questions.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:21 PM on April 30, 2012 [9 favorites]

Who takes the time and the money to fly hours to purchase a $4,500 vehicle? The Avalon is not a car unique to California.
posted by lstanley at 1:23 PM on April 30, 2012 [13 favorites]

If she asked you for advice, I would start off by advising "Do not pick up this person at the airport."

Everything else aside, this is just too weird.
posted by Specklet at 1:24 PM on April 30, 2012 [4 favorites]

I would call it off.
posted by empath at 1:24 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

He may be using the non-local bit to add urgency to the transaction and/or to throw them off his trail if it goes sour; as These Premises said, being a non-local may or may not be true.

If all does look above board and they go through with it:

Make sure she transfers title and takes her plates off. She does not want to be liable for the vehicle after the sale is complete.

(She may want to also have him sign a contract/receipt that clearly indicates that she is selling the car as-is and/or is not providing a warranty for the car. Though most used car sales by a private party are as-is sales anyway.)
posted by vegartanipla at 1:24 PM on April 30, 2012 [3 favorites]

"Oops! I only brought a money order for $1000 too much. My bank is in Seattle, I can't go back there and get a new one. Here, just take this money order, and write me a check for the difference."

The guy lives in LA and took the bus to LAX. No one is desperate for 12-year-old Toyotas with 180k miles.
posted by miyabo at 1:26 PM on April 30, 2012 [11 favorites]

My motto in business, stolen shamelessly from Batman Forever (...what?): "If I have to decide now, I have to say no."

In other words, beware of situations where you are pressured to make a decision. In this case, the pressure is that he (supposedly) came all this way for the car and (supposedly) will have to get right back on the plane if he doesn't buy the car and it's 8:30 at night so the bank is closed so she should just take this cashier's check...

I wouldn't do it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:26 PM on April 30, 2012 [12 favorites]

No one flies 1100 miles to buy a 12-year old car with 184,000 miles on it, sight unseen, for a predetermined price. That would be crazy. No chance.
posted by LowellLarson at 1:27 PM on April 30, 2012 [21 favorites]

he will make an excuse on cash, and try and pay by fake chq or something.
Only accept cash.
posted by dripped at 1:28 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

I have no idea what could be behind this scam, but something is definitely hinky about this entire transaction. He asked no questions about the vehicle but is willing to purchase it in cash, sight unseen, after also paying for two airline tickets?? This is not a Rolls Royce or some other prestige name car, it's a Toyota. Do not go to the airport! Whatever is up the "buyer's" sleeve, it stinks to high heaven.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:29 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

This is absolutely 100% a scam. There is no chance whatsoever that this is not a scam. Best case scenario, they lose the car to a scammer. Worst case scenario, they both die. They need to call it off immediately. I cannot stress this enough.
posted by a_girl_irl at 1:30 PM on April 30, 2012 [5 favorites]

His behavior makes no sense at all, hence this has to be a scam. The only alternative is that he's mentally in, but in that case she shouldn't take advantage of him.
posted by alms at 1:30 PM on April 30, 2012

Nthing all the rest...but just adding in the basic issue of why would a person travel 1,135 miles just to get a Toyota? I mean, they are fine cars and all that, but certainly there is t least one Toyota Avalon XLS available in Seattle.

Doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
posted by lampshade at 1:30 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

Yeah, while it could be money laundering, anything short of cash on the barrelhead -- no checks, no money orders, accept absolutely nothing but green -- and dude can fly himself back to Seattle. In fact, you might want to invest in one of these.
posted by griphus at 1:32 PM on April 30, 2012

Wait, they're picking him up? Jesus, this is scam city. No one who can fly to buy a used car for whatever reason needs to get picked up at the airport.
posted by griphus at 1:33 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

If you have to ask, it is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:38 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

As everyone else has said, this smells rotten.

With all seriousness, she should ABSOLUTELY NOT meet this person.
posted by gnutron at 1:39 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

Don't pick him up. Anything else, I'd say, sure, maybe it's legit. She can definitely confirm if cash is counterfeit.

But she doesn't want to get into a situation where she is in ANY way responsible for this guy. Getting him in her car is being responsible for him. It's not so much the physical danger, as the element of psychological pressure to complete the transaction and to "comply" with him that worries me.

A transaction for a used car has to take place on neutral territory where either of the parties can walk away and immediately terminate all contact with the other party. An arm's length transaction.

If she wants to entertain this possibility, tell her to have the guy meet her at a local bank SHE trusts, let the guy buy a cashier's check made out to her IN HER PRESENCE (she watches him hand the money to the teller, then the teller hands her the check) for the exact amount of the car. I can't see how that scenario can go wrong. Just tell the guy he will have to get a hotel room and cab it to the bank. If he doesn't show, that's her answer.
posted by jayder at 1:42 PM on April 30, 2012 [5 favorites]

Who takes the time and the money to fly hours to purchase a $4,500 vehicle?

I actually did that for a $1000 van that I bought off ebay. It promptly broke down after a mile. Anyways, this sounds like a scam.
posted by drezdn at 1:52 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

Sometimes, I feel it is acceptable and helpful to be honest and say "I am very wary of scams so these are my requirements for completing this transaction. I cannot accept any money orders or cashiers checks if they are not purchased from my bank in my presence for the exact amount of the car. If you already have a check, you will need to cash it yourself and use the proceeds to buy another in my presence. I cannot accept any instrument in an amount greater than the cost of the car. And you will have to sign a document stating you understand the sale is as-is; even if the car breaks down as you are driving it out of the bank parking lot after buying it, you will have no recourse against me. Ok? Ok."

Being TOTALLY UPFRONT about your awareness of scams and the measures you will take to not get scammed will go a long way toward scaring a scammer off.
posted by jayder at 1:53 PM on April 30, 2012 [15 favorites]

Yes, this is most definitely a scam. She should definitely not pick this guy up! I like jayder's suggestion of having him meet her at a local bank of her choosing. There are a number of branches of many major banks near LAX on Sepulveda, though none will be open that late in the evening, so Scammer will have to get a hotel room and meet her tomorrow (or, more likely, he can stay home in L.A. where he probably lives and try to con more people on the internet until tomorrow). That way, if Scammer has counterfeit cash, the bank teller will know, and your daughter-in-law won't be signing over her title for a fake check or counterfeit money. My bet is that Scammer won't show up once these things are suggested.
posted by bedhead at 1:54 PM on April 30, 2012

This sounds so completely scammy that I can't even decide which aspect seems the most deranged.
posted by elizardbits at 1:54 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

This is a very bad idea.

As someone who was on the wrong end of a drama-filled car buying scam many years ago -- I was young, naive, stupid and desperate to sell my car, and almost got the shit beat out of me because of it -- do NOT engage in this.

There is tons of good advice upthread here. Given what you've described, anything that doesn't involve a standard transaction at a bank, with cash handed over the counter (as jayder describes), should be verboten.
posted by liquado at 1:56 PM on April 30, 2012

Nobody has even entertained that the idea that this guy might not arrive alone at the airport to meet your kids. At the simplest, they could be carjacked at gunpoint in the LAX parking lot.

TELL THEM TO BAIL.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:59 PM on April 30, 2012 [3 favorites]

What if dude doesn't show up alone, but rather has a "driver" with him? Or what if he shows up with two other dudes he forgot to mention? I could see that happening.

I hope that she's not leaving her home/apartment empty while she's meeting this stranger... because if I wanted to rob her house, I'd make sure to hold her up at the airport for an hour to give myself more time, you know? I mean, it's weird on so many levels, it's hard to stop thinking of bizarre scenarios where your son and his wife are scammed.

Listen to your gut. Especially when you can't find the angle, but you're reasonably sure things don't sound quite right. And this surely doesn't sound quite right to any of us, eh?
posted by heyho at 2:01 PM on April 30, 2012

I lean toward "sounds weird."

However, I once flew to another city to buy a $3500 Saab convertible (perhaps more rare than an Avalon); but I did ask some questions about it first. The owner picked me up at the airport. I also once drove 700 miles to buy a $1200 Isuzu Trooper on eBay.

All that to say, I wouldn't say 100% it's a scam, but it does sound iffy. Not in a "they-might-die-in-a-carjacking" way, but in a "wouldn't-be-surprised-if-the-buyer-offered-a-check" way.
posted by The Deej at 2:07 PM on April 30, 2012

Being TOTALLY UPFRONT about your awareness of scams and the measures you will take to not get scammed will go a long way toward scaring a scammer off.

Unless you missed the way they were planning on scamming you, and then it's even easier.
posted by empath at 2:09 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

OP: Please do follow up and let us know the outcome as well when you have a chance...
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:15 PM on April 30, 2012 [13 favorites]

I'd say don't go through with it.

But if you do go through with it talk to airport police first, try to have an officer present throughout. Don't leave the airport with the guy, if you are going to do business do it at the airport in the officer's presence.

There are always hundreds of cops walking around at a major airport, let them be useful for something for a change.
posted by pseudonick at 2:47 PM on April 30, 2012

I don't see what's wrong with wanting to fly out to buy a used car. My favorite car is a couple years older than that one, and if I saw one in the condition yours is in, with all those options (hopefully with lower miles, but my brand is less reliable than a Toyota), I'd fly to LAX from Portland in a heartbeat. Especially since the VIN is online; he could have checked carfax before he went over.

Still, hard to ignore all these comments advising you to be wary.
posted by homodachi at 2:59 PM on April 30, 2012

i've thought about flying to LA to look at a used car before, but for a much rarer car. i've never had any luck having the seller take me seriously and assumed i was scamming them.
posted by joshu at 3:06 PM on April 30, 2012

He asked no questions about the vehicle but is willing to purchase it in cash, sight unseen, after also paying for two airline tickets?? This is not a Rolls Royce or some other prestige name car, it's a Toyota. Do not go to the airport! Whatever is up the "buyer's" sleeve, it stinks to high heaven.

Just to throw some experience the other way:

Just last weekend I drove 4 hours to Horse tiny wide spot on the road in BC you've never heard of to buy a 2002 Caravan. The seller had a few pictures on the website (but none of the driver's side) plus a short description that detailed the options so my only question was to confirm the mileage (212K kms) and that the driver's side looked like the passenger's side (IE: essentially undamaged). I emailed the seller on Friday and asked her to hold it for me until 11AM Saturday ('cause you know, 8 hour round trip) which she did. I was there by 11. I verified the van was as repesented in the ad (with bonus cracked taillight and a need for brake pads). I traded cash for the signed transfer forms and was on my way.

If I hadn't managed to finagle a ride I would have asked the seller to meet me at the nearest greyhound station. And in fact on two occasions in the past I have done just that.

Why would I make this trip? The vehicle was exactly what I was looking for at a very competative price. What turned out to be a good road trip in the deal was a bonus. And I hadn't actually paid for the car until after I saw it; if it hadn't been as represented I could have still walked away.

This sort of thing (flying into a location and buying a car at the airport) is fairly common for special interest vehicles. And California is an ideal car buying location because of the climate.

Finally it's possible the purchaser is heading to California for a protracted stay (a couple months say). Flying in and buying a car is less hassle and cheaper than renting a car and you don't have to worry about mileage fees. Even better if you can get the seller to pick you up at the airport.
posted by Mitheral at 3:27 PM on April 30, 2012 [3 favorites]

Just another voice agreeing with all the above.

This guy lives in LA and is having your kids meet him at the airport where he'll play on the idea that 'I came all this way and don't have enough money for a flight home" to get them to accept a personal (rubber) or fake cashiers cheque. Possibly writing it out for too much and looking for bonus cash.
posted by Beacon Inbound at 3:32 PM on April 30, 2012

I once sold a car to a guy who didn't ask any questions. All he did was turn it on -- not even drive it -- and try the stereo (which was broken). Despite my telling him repeatedly that the brakes were lousy, he gave me cash and drove off with it. I think he was going to use it for parts.

So it does happen. Which isn't to say that this isn't a scam, because it sounds weird.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:42 PM on April 30, 2012

Just to add another thought that might point to non-scam: the information and description of the car is very thorough. It sounds great. I don't know if there are really any more questions to be asked. Maybe it just sounds like a nicer car than the buyer has found anywhere else, and it's worth it fly to LA and drive it back.
posted by The Deej at 4:27 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

duien has it nailed, almost. This has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with the transaction. As duien described, "buyer" has a pre-printed check, moneyorder, whatever, that is probably a couple of hundred over and asks for the difference. This is a slick scam because the "buyer" will probably even offer to pick the car up later after their check has cleared. They don't get the car but they will get the cash.

I'd still go with cash or no deal. Gives them a fair shake if they're legit and weeds them out if not.
posted by snsranch at 4:33 PM on April 30, 2012

Just one more reminder that when your bank tells you a check has 'cleared' this means nothing. It can take several more days for them to find out if a check is stolen or forged and you will be on the hook for the amount. The banks say that people want their money to be available quickly so they clear checks before they get the money in hand. This is really not a very helpful service.
posted by InkaLomax at 4:59 PM on April 30, 2012

As someone who has consulted with local and federal government on scams and cons, I can say that there is no scam that starts with "I'm going to come by plane and pay you with cash for the car you're selling." That's not to say this is or isn't a scam, I'm just saying if it is, it's not a standard one.

As far as your red flags

1. Nigerian scammers don't typically do things in person so an accent that "might be Nigerian" is probably not an issue. And, as has been mentioned, you're more likely to have a non-Nigerian running that scam on you in person -- so the accent or lack of one is inconsequential.

2. He didn't ask any questions about the car, but, as you said, he also said this is his first car. Well, maybe he doesn't know what questions to ask. It sounds like he might not be the most savvy car buyer and maybe your daughter's ad answered any questions he would have.

The fact that he wanted to knock $800 off the price of the car is also something we don't typically see with scammers.

So here's my advice, and it's the advice I would give anyone doing ANY craigslist transaction. Only accept cash. Conduct all your business in a public place. Bring along a couple friends. Walk away if the buyer tries to change the agreed upon details of the transaction.
posted by twinight at 5:08 PM on April 30, 2012 [3 favorites]

Southern California cars fetch a premium, because they've been driven in rain/salt-free conditions, typically with lots of highway miles. If I had a bunch of frequent flier miles and lived up the coast, I'd make the trip to buy there.

I mean, I'd sure as heck be really careful about this one, but at some point in the process of selling a car you do need to meet with a stranger to exchange money for goods.
posted by Dr.Enormous at 5:15 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

> Did she get a feel for example, that he is culturally from Seattle (hipstery, fisherman, etc.)

Not everyone in Seattle is "culturally from" here. Please don't presume that the guy doesn't live in Seattle just because he has an accent your daughter didn't recognize. (I have no opinion on if he's scamming her or not.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:16 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

Another vote for scam: as others say, they'll show up with a money order or cashier's check or whatever ("I was scared to fly/go through TSA with that much cash on me") for more than the car's asking price. Anything but 100% cash on the spot, as agreed, is a dealbreaker: any kind of check or money order will probably be a fake.

As far as the buyer flying in from Seattle: yeah, I agree the guy actually lives in LA; one way to check is to wait for him at the passenger pickup area, NOT outside at an exit door or in the parking lot --- watch the people actually coming out the jetway at the gate, and make sure whether he is or is NOT getting off that plane. (And if your daughter-in-law and son can't be absolutely positive? Screw it, go home and find an honest buyer.)
posted by easily confused at 5:20 PM on April 30, 2012

If you do suggest that your son and daughter-in-law meet the buyer at the gate, the only LAX flight I see arriving from Seattle is Virgin 796 at Gate 3 37A.

I assume that your kids have two cars, the one they inherited and the one that's for sale? If that is the case, why the need to pick-up the buyer? Why not drive both cars to LAX, or a neutral public location and have the buyer meet them there?

If there is a scam to this transaction, it would be as others have suggested; the money order is for an amount higher than agreed-upon, and they want your kids to pay the difference. Hopefully, if this happens, your kids will have the strength of will to refuse to continue the deal despite any pleas of "but I don't have a ticket home!"
posted by CancerMan at 5:51 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

If you do suggest that your son and daughter-in-law meet the buyer at the gate, the only LAX flight I see arriving from Seattle is Virgin 796 at Gate 3 37A.

Is this even a thing anymore? I thought that the only way you get out to the gates anymore at US airports is to either be stepping off a plane that just arrived, or to have a boarding pass for a flight about to leave and go through the security screening. Is the TSA's piloting a new relaxed rule set at LAX and I just hadn't heard about it?
posted by radwolf76 at 7:13 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

And as an important flipside to that, don't think that seeing someone exiting the security restricted area of an airport is any kind of guarantee that they just arrived on an airplane. Even if they've managed to close this loophole (and I don't recall ever hearing that they have), there are surely others that could be exploited.
posted by radwolf76 at 7:32 PM on April 30, 2012

...there are surely others that could be exploited.

For example, anyone can buy a fully refundable plane ticket to receive a boarding pass and clear security.
posted by roomwithaview at 7:44 PM on April 30, 2012

OP here with a follow up:

Everyone is alive and the car is sold. This guy flew from Seattle with $4500 cash and bought their car. They checked all of the bills with a counterfeit checker thingy. They took two cars to the airport and one extra friend and the transaction took place at the airport and a Taco Bell close by. My son said this guy was super nice and would be driving back to Seattle tonight because he has to work tomorrow. So I guess I don't know anything about scammers. Go figure.

Thanks for all of the help everyone. I did forward the link to this thread to them and I am sure that it helped them handle this smartly. My faith in humanity is semi-restored.
posted by snowjoe at 10:38 PM on April 30, 2012 [15 favorites]

Oh. It turns out the guy is from Burkina Faso.
posted by snowjoe at 10:43 PM on April 30, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm glad it all worked out for everyone. And that your son and daughter in law took a "trust but verify" stance and enlisted friends' help in case things got weird (which thankfully they didn't!)

Thanks for updating the thread. Yay, happy endings!
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:49 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

Wow. Cool.
posted by jayder at 11:16 PM on April 30, 2012 [1 favorite]

No one flies 1100 miles to buy a 12-year old car with 184,000 miles on it, sight unseen, for a predetermined price. That would be crazy. No chance.

Day late and a dollar short, but: I'd like you to meet my father! Who found a 19-year-old Chevy Blazer for sale in Arizona through an online listing service, and so dearly loved his CURRENT mid-80's Chevy that he was willing to buy another one for parts. He made contact with the guy selling it, bought a one-way fare to Arizona, and drove the car back to his house. In Connecticut.

I think maybe we're all a little too conditioned to suspect shenaniganry from deals that are brokered through the internet. The world is full of mildly quirky people who want to buy things, and most of them are pretty harmless. Glad this went well for you, snowjoe!
posted by Mayor West at 5:14 AM on May 1, 2012

Glad it worked out, but MAN that is weird!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:51 AM on May 1, 2012 [1 favorite]

I have never been so glad to be wrong, but future readers, please note even though this was not a scam, it had all the hallmarks of one, and I would give the same advice to anyone else asking this question in the future.
posted by a_girl_irl at 6:13 AM on May 1, 2012 [4 favorites]

It sounds like what I initially thought -- he's some foreigner who is maybe a little naive about cars who got it in his head that he really wants this type of car, and your daughter-in-laws car was exactly what he wanted, so he was willing to jump through hoops to get it.

Weird, but cool that it worked out.
posted by imagineerit at 6:50 AM on May 1, 2012

I have never been so glad to be wrong, but future readers, please note even though this was not a scam, it had all the hallmarks of one, and I would give the same advice to anyone else asking this question in the future.

I'm not saying that one incident should necessarily change your mind completely, but it should budge your opinion some. Absolutely people should be wary of scams, untrusting of strangers, and aware of things that can happen to them but the level of paranoia is this thread is a little bid sad. As is the degree of "there is NO WAY he is flying from X to do Y!". Certainty is just an emotion.
posted by RustyBrooks at 12:08 PM on May 2, 2012 [1 favorite]