Can you mix chlorine with juice mix without any problems?
November 10, 2011 10:51 PM Subscribe
We are creating a tablet that purifies water and delivers a nutritious "juice". However we are designers, not chemists, and we need some basic guidance.
Would it be problematic to combine chlorine (or preferably, a safer purification chemical) with a vitamin-based juice powder or liquid? Are there any health dangers to consider with this mixture?
The tablet will be geared towards children living in the slums of underdeveloped countries that often drink soda since potable water is inconvenient.
The tablet will be geared towards children living in the slums of underdeveloped countries that often drink soda since potable water is inconvenient.
If you're asking this question, you've got no business attempting to do what you describe.
posted by smcameron at 11:02 PM on November 10, 2011 [97 favorites]
posted by smcameron at 11:02 PM on November 10, 2011 [97 favorites]
Yeah, you've got to provide more details on what the hell it is you're doing.
Is the goal to make something that purifies the water and is also tasty for them to drink? Because, sorry, that is exactly the role that soda fits. I'm having a hard time seeing a situation where the health risks from the purification chemical are less than those of soda.
If we're talking about slum kids, they're drinking water that is sufficiently dirty that basically chemical purification is not going to cut it. You need filtration.
posted by Deathalicious at 11:13 PM on November 10, 2011
Is the goal to make something that purifies the water and is also tasty for them to drink? Because, sorry, that is exactly the role that soda fits. I'm having a hard time seeing a situation where the health risks from the purification chemical are less than those of soda.
If we're talking about slum kids, they're drinking water that is sufficiently dirty that basically chemical purification is not going to cut it. You need filtration.
posted by Deathalicious at 11:13 PM on November 10, 2011
However we are designers, not chemists, and we need some basic guidance.
Hire people who are trained in the thing you want to do.
Can you mix chlorine with juice mix without any problems?
Before you harm someone.
posted by secret about box at 11:17 PM on November 10, 2011 [10 favorites]
Hire people who are trained in the thing you want to do.
Can you mix chlorine with juice mix without any problems?
Before you harm someone.
posted by secret about box at 11:17 PM on November 10, 2011 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Citric acid, the basis of orange juice, combines with chlorine to produce all manner of mutagens and carcinogens.
posted by fake at 11:21 PM on November 10, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by fake at 11:21 PM on November 10, 2011 [7 favorites]
Response by poster:
Hire people who are trained in the thing you want to do.
This is a student design project; we are not actually producing these tablets, but we're trying to get a better understanding of what problems we might encounter. Hiring chemists or water purification experts is way in the future.
Right now, we're using off-the-shelf chlorine purification tablets (though they're way too expensive for the people who need them) and wondering if we mix in some juice or kool-aid type powder if there are any obvious problems that would arise that would make it impossible to continue developing this idea.
Citric acid, the basis of orange juice, combines with chlorine to produce all manner of mutagens and carcinogens.
Ixnay on the OJ. Thanks.
posted by thebigpoop at 11:28 PM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hire people who are trained in the thing you want to do.
This is a student design project; we are not actually producing these tablets, but we're trying to get a better understanding of what problems we might encounter. Hiring chemists or water purification experts is way in the future.
Right now, we're using off-the-shelf chlorine purification tablets (though they're way too expensive for the people who need them) and wondering if we mix in some juice or kool-aid type powder if there are any obvious problems that would arise that would make it impossible to continue developing this idea.
Citric acid, the basis of orange juice, combines with chlorine to produce all manner of mutagens and carcinogens.
Ixnay on the OJ. Thanks.
posted by thebigpoop at 11:28 PM on November 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, hikers already use iodine tablets to purify water. Vitamin C (like you might find in powdered gatorade) conveniently combines with the iodine neutralizing the iodine taste.
Potential problems:
For the iodine to effectively kill any bugs in the water, you have to wait 15-30 minutes before adding the Vit C, which may be problematic for a simple packet you mix with water.
I don't know what the long term health effects of consuming iodine daily are.
A small percentage of the population is allergic to iodine.
posted by justkevin at 11:52 PM on November 10, 2011
Potential problems:
For the iodine to effectively kill any bugs in the water, you have to wait 15-30 minutes before adding the Vit C, which may be problematic for a simple packet you mix with water.
I don't know what the long term health effects of consuming iodine daily are.
A small percentage of the population is allergic to iodine.
posted by justkevin at 11:52 PM on November 10, 2011
Chlorine is not going to help you kill parasites like Cryptosporidium but it has been shown to be effective in many settings. It's not clear what your design project goals are, but you might consider solar disinfection--there have been studies that show that a simple system using plastic bottles on rooftops in sunny climates can provide adequate disinfection to substantially improve public health. Check out this nice (if a bit old) review article on point-of-use water treatment, and the accompanying PubMed search that led me there.
I'm not sure why you want to add flavor--as Deathalicious pointed out, they are already getting that function from the soda. There's a lot to be said for just providing clean water for drinking.
posted by gubenuj at 11:53 PM on November 10, 2011
I'm not sure why you want to add flavor--as Deathalicious pointed out, they are already getting that function from the soda. There's a lot to be said for just providing clean water for drinking.
posted by gubenuj at 11:53 PM on November 10, 2011
Adding certain kinds of fruit juice cordial to the water can prevent some tummy bugs. Here's an article about it.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 12:33 AM on November 11, 2011
posted by obiwanwasabi at 12:33 AM on November 11, 2011
If you're wanting to kill bacteria and not get into the chemical equivalent of that "I see you are using Bonetti's Defense against me" bit from The Princess Bride (e.g. Antibiotics) you pretty much have to use some flavor of blunt trauma - heat, UV and either reactive chemicals like chlorine, sodium hydroxide or peroxide, or chemicals which create an extreme environment like 40% alcohol. These are going to react with anything that might resemble nutritious and tasty in a not good way.
A two step system would be a much better alternative.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:51 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
A two step system would be a much better alternative.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:51 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hey! Iodine just came up here a couple of days ago. This hasn't been widely circulated for all that long, but apparently people who can't eat shellfish aren't actually allergic to the iodine. (More elsewhere in that thread, but it's kinda grar.)
Two problems with iodine are that 1) too much of will make you produce too much thyroid hormone and that 2) it doesn't do anything about Cryptosporidium (among other bugs) either. Oh, and 3) pregnant women should have even less of it. (But not too little.)
It seems like you're addressing an imaginary problem where there's already a way to chemically purify incredibly dirty water effectively and cheaply, and the kids just aren't drinking it because it doesn't taste as good as soda. But that disinfection method doesn't exist. The major innovation in the scenario you're describing would be the purification agent itself, not the additives.
posted by Adventurer at 12:58 AM on November 11, 2011
Two problems with iodine are that 1) too much of will make you produce too much thyroid hormone and that 2) it doesn't do anything about Cryptosporidium (among other bugs) either. Oh, and 3) pregnant women should have even less of it. (But not too little.)
It seems like you're addressing an imaginary problem where there's already a way to chemically purify incredibly dirty water effectively and cheaply, and the kids just aren't drinking it because it doesn't taste as good as soda. But that disinfection method doesn't exist. The major innovation in the scenario you're describing would be the purification agent itself, not the additives.
posted by Adventurer at 12:58 AM on November 11, 2011
anecdata re: iodine: i'm topically sensitive to iodine - can't be used on me. weirdly, this has meant some strange skin reactions to fresh seaweed, too. not allergic to shellfish.
in otherwords, iodine sensitivity does exist, although the population is small enough that might not be a concern.
posted by batmonkey at 4:29 AM on November 11, 2011
in otherwords, iodine sensitivity does exist, although the population is small enough that might not be a concern.
posted by batmonkey at 4:29 AM on November 11, 2011
Are you very attached to using chlorine? Forward osmosis methods such as HTI's Hydropack purify water using a sugar 'draw solution' to pull water through a very fine membrane (fine enough that bacteria, etc., cannot get through). You end up with a pouch full of orange flavored 'sports drink'. The drawback is that it takes a while for this process to work.
posted by Comrade_robot at 4:44 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Comrade_robot at 4:44 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, when you wrote ixnay on the OJ I was thinking more along the lines IxNay on the chlorine tablets.
Imagine you are handing these candy-shaped tablets out to kids and telling them a) they taste just as good as soda and b) they have to follow a specific set of steps including letting them sit in water so the chlorine gas can escape or otherwise it will make them sick. Which of the two statements will they pay the most attention to? What are the odds of at least one child popping one in their mouths? What will happen then?
posted by Deathalicious at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Imagine you are handing these candy-shaped tablets out to kids and telling them a) they taste just as good as soda and b) they have to follow a specific set of steps including letting them sit in water so the chlorine gas can escape or otherwise it will make them sick. Which of the two statements will they pay the most attention to? What are the odds of at least one child popping one in their mouths? What will happen then?
posted by Deathalicious at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Actually, my suggestion would be to find some literature on the topic; this is actually abundant, and if it's a student project, you'll need it for your report. Eliminating the poor taste of chemically disinfected water is a field that is fairly well studied. The following is from
Wilkerson, Medicine for Mountaineering and Other Wilderness Activities.
On iodine:
Artificial flavorings added to hide the taste usually contain ascorbic acid, which reacts with iodine and impairs its antimicrobial activity. Potable-Aqua(R) is now supplied with ascorbic acid tablets -- to be added after disinfection is complete -- to eliminate the iodine taste. A less convenient technique is to convert the iodine to tasteless sodium iodide with an equal weight of sodium thiosulfate. The water can be filtered through activated charcoal, which, by adsorption, physically removes the iodine (and some odors, inorganic materials, and microorganisms, but not enough to make the water suitable for consumption)...
He follows with a warning about using iodine if you have known thyroid dysfunction. He also recommends that people who are allergic to iodine use a filtration system to remove bacteria followed by chlorine to kill viruses.
The effectiveness of chlorine for water disinfection is well documented. However, the disinfectant action of chlorine is pH sensitive, and if organic residues are present, chlorine combines with ammonia ions and amino acids to form chloramines, which release chlorine slowly and inconsistently ... although most municipal water systems in North America use chlorine as a disinfectant, free chlorine levels in the water must be constantly monitored ... [this is] not practical in the wilderness or developing countries. Furthermore, chlorine compounds that have been advocated for wilderness water disinfection, such as Halazone(R) or chlorine bleaches are unstable and of questionable reliabilit ... Preparations such as SafeAqua and the Sierra Water Purifier use a granulated calcium hypochlorite based system that ... intiially [adds] far more chlorine ... than is needed for disinfection ... after the water has been disinfected, the chlorine is driven off ... [using] thirty percent hydrogen peroxide ... [which] is caustic.
[Chlorine] is more expensive than iodine based systems but still is relatively cheap ... Chlorine is a much slower disinfectant than iodine.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:32 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wilkerson, Medicine for Mountaineering and Other Wilderness Activities.
On iodine:
Artificial flavorings added to hide the taste usually contain ascorbic acid, which reacts with iodine and impairs its antimicrobial activity. Potable-Aqua(R) is now supplied with ascorbic acid tablets -- to be added after disinfection is complete -- to eliminate the iodine taste. A less convenient technique is to convert the iodine to tasteless sodium iodide with an equal weight of sodium thiosulfate. The water can be filtered through activated charcoal, which, by adsorption, physically removes the iodine (and some odors, inorganic materials, and microorganisms, but not enough to make the water suitable for consumption)...
He follows with a warning about using iodine if you have known thyroid dysfunction. He also recommends that people who are allergic to iodine use a filtration system to remove bacteria followed by chlorine to kill viruses.
The effectiveness of chlorine for water disinfection is well documented. However, the disinfectant action of chlorine is pH sensitive, and if organic residues are present, chlorine combines with ammonia ions and amino acids to form chloramines, which release chlorine slowly and inconsistently ... although most municipal water systems in North America use chlorine as a disinfectant, free chlorine levels in the water must be constantly monitored ... [this is] not practical in the wilderness or developing countries. Furthermore, chlorine compounds that have been advocated for wilderness water disinfection, such as Halazone(R) or chlorine bleaches are unstable and of questionable reliabilit ... Preparations such as SafeAqua and the Sierra Water Purifier use a granulated calcium hypochlorite based system that ... intiially [adds] far more chlorine ... than is needed for disinfection ... after the water has been disinfected, the chlorine is driven off ... [using] thirty percent hydrogen peroxide ... [which] is caustic.
[Chlorine] is more expensive than iodine based systems but still is relatively cheap ... Chlorine is a much slower disinfectant than iodine.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:32 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Are you tied to a chemical disinfectant process? What about a filter-based system with a filter fine enough that it actually filters out viruses > 15nanometers?
posted by suedehead at 6:02 AM on November 11, 2011
posted by suedehead at 6:02 AM on November 11, 2011
nthing the fact that you need a better view of iodine tables and how they work as they already exist. I think that's your solution. Iodine treatment --> neutralizer --> flavor, in that order. You just need the instruction pack/delivery platform.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:25 AM on November 11, 2011
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:25 AM on November 11, 2011
Oh, that sounds good. If you were trying to simplify this for children, you could encapsulate the vitamin C and possibly the flavoring in a time-release coating. So then you drop the big pill in the bottle, iodine dissolves, 30 minutes later vitamin C is realeased after the time-release coating dissolves. You just have to make sure they wait long enough (as will be true for any chemical disinfectant).
I have used chewable vitamin C tablets to neutralize the flavor in iodized water on backpacking trips. Works like a charm.
posted by huckit at 11:21 AM on November 11, 2011
I have used chewable vitamin C tablets to neutralize the flavor in iodized water on backpacking trips. Works like a charm.
posted by huckit at 11:21 AM on November 11, 2011
What did your instructor give you as guidance for how to begin this process?
It seems odd you'd get an assignment like this without some pretty clear instructions?
posted by winna at 11:41 AM on November 11, 2011
It seems odd you'd get an assignment like this without some pretty clear instructions?
posted by winna at 11:41 AM on November 11, 2011
I think the military already has a tablet that does this.
posted by TheRedArmy at 2:16 PM on November 11, 2011
posted by TheRedArmy at 2:16 PM on November 11, 2011
here.
No flavor, but seems like that's the easy part.
posted by TheRedArmy at 2:19 PM on November 11, 2011
No flavor, but seems like that's the easy part.
posted by TheRedArmy at 2:19 PM on November 11, 2011
Here's another filter system: http://www.htiwater.com/divisions/humanitarian/about.html
posted by at at 2:39 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by at at 2:39 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by empath at 11:01 PM on November 10, 2011