Who coined the term "Red, white and blue"?
May 25, 2011 9:48 AM Subscribe
I'd like to know who or whom first coined the term "red, white and blue" and if there was a purposeful differentiation from "blue, red and white" or any other combination thereof other than linguistic value.
We have an interesting Frenchman working with us on the team and he seems to take offense that Americans have linguistic conventions that defy common sense or reality in relation to how a French person would perceive their reality, such as "World Champs" for sports aside from the only worldwide sport, association football.
We have an interesting Frenchman working with us on the team and he seems to take offense that Americans have linguistic conventions that defy common sense or reality in relation to how a French person would perceive their reality, such as "World Champs" for sports aside from the only worldwide sport, association football.
Best answer: I asked this question about a year ago.
posted by Lucinda at 10:04 AM on May 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Lucinda at 10:04 AM on May 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
It could just be the power of suggestion, but I think red is the dominant color of the American flag, then white, then blue. "Bleu, blanc et rouge" are literally the three colors of the French flag left-to-right. Moreover I'm not sure why our linguistic conventions need to comply with French reality, they're our linguistic convention's, not France's.
BTW, I think it's totally fair that the champions of North American sports (baseball, basketball, hockey, American football) can call themselves "World Champions". This isn't like soccer, where various European national leagues can legitimately make a claim to being the best in the world; our leagues in those respective sports are far and away the best. Is there really any question that the best American baseball team can beat the best Japanese team, or that the best American/Canadian hockey team can beat the best KHL team?
posted by downing street memo at 10:05 AM on May 25, 2011
BTW, I think it's totally fair that the champions of North American sports (baseball, basketball, hockey, American football) can call themselves "World Champions". This isn't like soccer, where various European national leagues can legitimately make a claim to being the best in the world; our leagues in those respective sports are far and away the best. Is there really any question that the best American baseball team can beat the best Japanese team, or that the best American/Canadian hockey team can beat the best KHL team?
posted by downing street memo at 10:05 AM on May 25, 2011
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're after, and like supercres, I don't understand what one has to do with the other.
(Although, I'd like to put forward that the phrase "world champs" for the winner of the Super Bowl is totally legitimate, since if you're going to play football professionally, the NFL is where everyone who plays the sport at a high level plays it. If the sport were played in the olympics, I don't think there is any question that the United States would win the gold, if for no other reason that the sport isn't really played anywhere else at the same level.)
posted by King Bee at 10:05 AM on May 25, 2011
(Although, I'd like to put forward that the phrase "world champs" for the winner of the Super Bowl is totally legitimate, since if you're going to play football professionally, the NFL is where everyone who plays the sport at a high level plays it. If the sport were played in the olympics, I don't think there is any question that the United States would win the gold, if for no other reason that the sport isn't really played anywhere else at the same level.)
posted by King Bee at 10:05 AM on May 25, 2011
(Gah, terrible apostrophe mistake. I'll slink away in humiliation now)
posted by downing street memo at 10:06 AM on May 25, 2011
posted by downing street memo at 10:06 AM on May 25, 2011
I'm not sure how your two paragraphs relate to each other, but I'd challenge the assertion that footie is "the only worldwide sport." I wouldn't even say it's the only worldwide team sport, given the popularity of basketball and rugby in its various forms. The Super Bowl hasn't been called a World Championship since the '60s, and neither the NBA or NHL refers to its respective championship as a "World Championship."
France has, incidentally, participated in two of the three IFAF World Cups (American football), six of the sixteen FIBA World Championships (basketball), and hosted four IIHF World Championships (hockey).
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on May 25, 2011
France has, incidentally, participated in two of the three IFAF World Cups (American football), six of the sixteen FIBA World Championships (basketball), and hosted four IIHF World Championships (hockey).
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on May 25, 2011
Best answer: My initial guess was that it might be to differentiate from other countries whose flags include the same colors (UK, France, Netherlands, Russia), but I was able to quickly rule out that hypothesis, because at least the British and French flags have been described as "red, white and blue" also. From the Oct. 10 1896 issue of Notes and Queries:
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:12 AM on May 25, 2011
RED, WHITE, BLUE — At the time of the Crimean War the song "Three Cheers for the Red, White, and Blue" was popular, because the colours of the Union Jack and of the French tricolour were both expressed by it....Also (possibly the same song referred to above) Red, White, and Blue by Thomas A'Becket, ca. 1750, referring to the British flag.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:12 AM on May 25, 2011
This webpage (from "a website dedicated to the flag of the United States of America") describes the meaning of each color. That doesn't directly answer your question about why we mention them in that order, but maybe the order has to do with the meanings:
We have an interesting Frenchman working with us on the team and he seems to take offense that Americans have linguistic conventions that defy common sense or reality in relation to how a French person would perceive their reality, such as "World Champs" for sports aside from the only worldwide sport, association football.
I don't understand how the above paragraph is part of your question.
posted by John Cohen at 10:24 AM on May 25, 2011
Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, reporting to Congress on the Seal, stated:I think it makes sense to first mention hardiness (red), and end with perseverance/justice (blue). Subtext: we're hardy and valiant -- but not just for its own sake -- we persevere in our hardiness, and the ultimate goal is justice. White gets stuck in the middle because it's not a "real color" like red and blue. Or maybe purity/innocence (white) is the weakest of the three virtues, so it needs to be bookended by the other two. (I'm not personally endorsing any of these ideas, just suggesting that they're what people might have originally had in mind.)"The colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band above the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice."
We have an interesting Frenchman working with us on the team and he seems to take offense that Americans have linguistic conventions that defy common sense or reality in relation to how a French person would perceive their reality, such as "World Champs" for sports aside from the only worldwide sport, association football.
I don't understand how the above paragraph is part of your question.
posted by John Cohen at 10:24 AM on May 25, 2011
Another possibility: the earliest settlements in the early 17th century in Manhattan where Dutch. In the dutch flag the order is red-white-blue. Maybe they kept the expression out of familiarity since the order of the colours in the US flag is arbitrary.
posted by joost de vries at 10:30 AM on May 25, 2011
posted by joost de vries at 10:30 AM on May 25, 2011
"World Champs" for sports
On this note, everything comes back to baseball.
Baseball has long been the most popular sport in the United States, but most people don't realize that professional, major-league baseball has been an organized entity for almost 150 years. Professional baseball pre-dates almost every every other sporting association in the world. The World Series is older than the World Cup by more than 20 years.
When the World Series was invented and the term coined, it really was the world championship. Yes, it was only played in the States, but professional baseball simply wasn't played anywhere else.
Every other American sporting league that came afterward copied its presentation from baseball, hoping to garner the same type of attention that baseball had.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:57 AM on May 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
On this note, everything comes back to baseball.
Baseball has long been the most popular sport in the United States, but most people don't realize that professional, major-league baseball has been an organized entity for almost 150 years. Professional baseball pre-dates almost every every other sporting association in the world. The World Series is older than the World Cup by more than 20 years.
When the World Series was invented and the term coined, it really was the world championship. Yes, it was only played in the States, but professional baseball simply wasn't played anywhere else.
Every other American sporting league that came afterward copied its presentation from baseball, hoping to garner the same type of attention that baseball had.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:57 AM on May 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Can I suggest that the order of the colors is due to it being the best balance of different word lengths? Despite all three being only one syllable, they take slightly different lengths of time to say. Perhaps this order sounds "right" to native English speakers because of some learnt phonological rules, or because the additional length of the comma and the "and" makes each one more even. Of course this explanation falls into the "linguistic value" category rather than something more meaningful, but it's worth considering.
posted by Jehan at 11:07 AM on May 25, 2011
posted by Jehan at 11:07 AM on May 25, 2011
Response by poster: The point, or should I say, one of the points that my French colleague brought up today was the order in which we say red, white and blue and why we just didn't use something as simple as bleu, blanc et rouge. None of us could actually answer him with enough conviction to satisfy the question.
In the second paragraph I tried to provide an example of what we go through daily with this guy at lunch and at team discussions. Like I said, he's very interesting in that he actually gets excited and argues socio-cultural points with us that someone else would just take as a given and adopt the When in Rome attitude. It looks like I did a poor job in combining those two; my apologies and thanks for the answers.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:15 AM on May 25, 2011
In the second paragraph I tried to provide an example of what we go through daily with this guy at lunch and at team discussions. Like I said, he's very interesting in that he actually gets excited and argues socio-cultural points with us that someone else would just take as a given and adopt the When in Rome attitude. It looks like I did a poor job in combining those two; my apologies and thanks for the answers.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:15 AM on May 25, 2011
The point, or should I say, one of the points that my French colleague brought up today was the order in which we say red, white and blue and why we just didn't use something as simple as bleu, blanc et rouge.
Okay, now I'm dying to know how "bleu, blanc et rouge" (or, presumably "blue, white and red") is "more simple" than "red, white and blue."
posted by Etrigan at 11:20 AM on May 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Okay, now I'm dying to know how "bleu, blanc et rouge" (or, presumably "blue, white and red") is "more simple" than "red, white and blue."
posted by Etrigan at 11:20 AM on May 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
What's easier to rhyme? Red, white or blue?
Let martial note in triumph float
And liberty extend its mighty hand
A flag appears 'mid thunderous cheers,
The banner of the Western land.
The emblem of the brave and true
Its folds protect no tyrant crew;
The red and white and starry blue
Is freedom's shield and hope.
I'm sure an argument could be made for red instead of blue, but led, bed, dead etc., like red, all and on a hard consonant and it's easier, while speaking and singing to end on a soft, open vowel.
posted by sardonyx at 11:32 AM on May 25, 2011
Let martial note in triumph float
And liberty extend its mighty hand
A flag appears 'mid thunderous cheers,
The banner of the Western land.
The emblem of the brave and true
Its folds protect no tyrant crew;
The red and white and starry blue
Is freedom's shield and hope.
I'm sure an argument could be made for red instead of blue, but led, bed, dead etc., like red, all and on a hard consonant and it's easier, while speaking and singing to end on a soft, open vowel.
posted by sardonyx at 11:32 AM on May 25, 2011
Once again: it's simple heraldry. The flag is the nation's heraldic equivalent of arms, and at the time of its creation, flag design was under the governance of heralds in Europe.
The original U.S. flag is blazoned:
"Barry of 13, gules and argent, upon a canton azure an annulet of 13 mullets argent."
Or, in English:
"13 horizontal stripes, red and white (the topmost red), with a blue rectangular block on the upper left corner, decorated with 13 5-pointed, straight-armed, white stars, arranged in a circle."
Any 17th- or early 18th-century gentleman would have understood the colors of the flag to be "red, white, and blue", in exactly that order, based on the blazon.
posted by IAmBroom at 5:34 PM on May 25, 2011
The original U.S. flag is blazoned:
"Barry of 13, gules and argent, upon a canton azure an annulet of 13 mullets argent."
Or, in English:
"13 horizontal stripes, red and white (the topmost red), with a blue rectangular block on the upper left corner, decorated with 13 5-pointed, straight-armed, white stars, arranged in a circle."
Any 17th- or early 18th-century gentleman would have understood the colors of the flag to be "red, white, and blue", in exactly that order, based on the blazon.
posted by IAmBroom at 5:34 PM on May 25, 2011
I, without having any data, think everyone here is wrong! (Man, I should be a newspaper columnist.)
I'm thinking that this is probably an issue of deep grammar in English. There's a "natural" adjective order in English. The websites I looked at only had the order of different types of adjectives. I.e. Age before Shape. But I wouldn't be surprised if that within the types of adjectives there is a "natural" order that the deep grammar of our brains have latched onto and sticks with. I.e. Greenish-grey seems natural to me, greyish-green is not so.
I suspect that the Red White Blue order follows some grammatical rule and that the various poets, speech writers, etc just ended up following it.
posted by bswinburn at 5:38 PM on May 25, 2011
I'm thinking that this is probably an issue of deep grammar in English. There's a "natural" adjective order in English. The websites I looked at only had the order of different types of adjectives. I.e. Age before Shape. But I wouldn't be surprised if that within the types of adjectives there is a "natural" order that the deep grammar of our brains have latched onto and sticks with. I.e. Greenish-grey seems natural to me, greyish-green is not so.
I suspect that the Red White Blue order follows some grammatical rule and that the various poets, speech writers, etc just ended up following it.
posted by bswinburn at 5:38 PM on May 25, 2011
Greenish-grey seems natural to me, greyish-green is not so.
But there's a difference between those two. The former is gray with a green tint, and the latter is green with a gray tint. The second word is modified by the first.
When I was a kid I didn't understand why the "blue-green" crayon was greener than the "green-blue," because I figured the first word should be the more dominant one, but it's not. The same applies to "student-athlete," which always amuses me when college coaches use it, but I digress.
The color symbolism theory is just seems too hazy. One could easily argue for any other order.
The "British and French used it first" makes the most sense (even if it makes us look even more derivative, what with our anthem being based on a British song). I guess it leads to the question of why the Union Jack was called "red white and blue," but in that case, it does look like red on white on blue.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 11:42 PM on May 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
But there's a difference between those two. The former is gray with a green tint, and the latter is green with a gray tint. The second word is modified by the first.
When I was a kid I didn't understand why the "blue-green" crayon was greener than the "green-blue," because I figured the first word should be the more dominant one, but it's not. The same applies to "student-athlete," which always amuses me when college coaches use it, but I digress.
The color symbolism theory is just seems too hazy. One could easily argue for any other order.
The "British and French used it first" makes the most sense (even if it makes us look even more derivative, what with our anthem being based on a British song). I guess it leads to the question of why the Union Jack was called "red white and blue," but in that case, it does look like red on white on blue.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 11:42 PM on May 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
(The "World Champion" moniker in baseball is a regular example of American egocentrism. See: any non-American comedian discussing baseball.)
posted by supercres at 9:59 AM on May 25, 2011