Scientist seeks scientific shrink
May 16, 2011 10:48 AM
I'm a scientist and wish my therapist were too, because I'm having trouble getting across to him what the research community's norms are and how I'm failing to meet them. How can I make the best of this situation, given that switching therapists, and especially trying to find an [ex-]scientist therapist, would be nontrivial? Looking for more in-depth answers than 'print this out and take it to your next session,' if possible.
I'm a researcher (grad student) in the hard sciences. My therapist is... really not, and I'm finding it hard to 'click' with him. He doesn't have a sense of what constitutes normal work hours/work schedules, easy vs difficult tasks, routine vs unusual tasks, etc in an experimental research setting. I don't do a lot of work that lends itself to common-experience sorts of explanations like "I had to write a 2-page paper and it took me two weeks"; it tends to be more like "I had to make such-and-such part in the machine shop / solder this-or-that piece of electronics together / design a new algorithm to sift through terabytes of data." I'm used to explaining my work to laymen, but the usual broad-strokes overviews don't seem to be getting through to my therapist. (And yes, one of the things I'm working on in therapy is getting productive again at work despite depression, so this sort of thing is relevant information.)
It's not that I dislike the guy, it's just that giving him enough context for my thoughts just about doubles the work of therapy; it's exhausting enough already without having to also put into words the pressures to publish, the expected lengths of time for things to take, the sorts of things it's acceptable to slack off on and the sorts where one's expected to buckle down constantly.
I'm quite shy and one of the things that I'm in therapy for is managing Asperger's, so connecting with new people takes a long time -- I've been seeing this guy for about six months and I'm only just beginning to feel like I'm warming up to him. So even though I know it's perfectly reasonable not to click with a therapist and to ask them for help finding someone better suited, switching therapists is a nontrivial proposition and I'd like to try to make things work with this guy first.
How do I make the best of this situation? Do I need to recalibrate my expectations? If so, how? If I end up trying to switch therapists, how do I improve my chances of finding someone I work well with given how long it takes me to warm up to people?
I'm a researcher (grad student) in the hard sciences. My therapist is... really not, and I'm finding it hard to 'click' with him. He doesn't have a sense of what constitutes normal work hours/work schedules, easy vs difficult tasks, routine vs unusual tasks, etc in an experimental research setting. I don't do a lot of work that lends itself to common-experience sorts of explanations like "I had to write a 2-page paper and it took me two weeks"; it tends to be more like "I had to make such-and-such part in the machine shop / solder this-or-that piece of electronics together / design a new algorithm to sift through terabytes of data." I'm used to explaining my work to laymen, but the usual broad-strokes overviews don't seem to be getting through to my therapist. (And yes, one of the things I'm working on in therapy is getting productive again at work despite depression, so this sort of thing is relevant information.)
It's not that I dislike the guy, it's just that giving him enough context for my thoughts just about doubles the work of therapy; it's exhausting enough already without having to also put into words the pressures to publish, the expected lengths of time for things to take, the sorts of things it's acceptable to slack off on and the sorts where one's expected to buckle down constantly.
I'm quite shy and one of the things that I'm in therapy for is managing Asperger's, so connecting with new people takes a long time -- I've been seeing this guy for about six months and I'm only just beginning to feel like I'm warming up to him. So even though I know it's perfectly reasonable not to click with a therapist and to ask them for help finding someone better suited, switching therapists is a nontrivial proposition and I'd like to try to make things work with this guy first.
How do I make the best of this situation? Do I need to recalibrate my expectations? If so, how? If I end up trying to switch therapists, how do I improve my chances of finding someone I work well with given how long it takes me to warm up to people?
Have you talked to your therapist about this directly? It might be a helpful way for you to work together to find more effective ways to communicate with one another. It's not always necessary for a therapist to have absolutely detailed understanding of what it's like to have a particular disorder, or to have had a particular experience, etc. Just like an oncologist does not have to have had cancer to know how to treat it. That being said, however, it is extremely important that you share a common language/understanding and most especially that you are feeling understood. By communicating with your therapist about what is not meeting your needs in your work together now, you may be able to find that there is a more effective way for you to understand each other.
A couple of other thoughts: It may be that part of the misunderstanding is a lack of information on both your parts about what the demands should be. Maybe they have not had the experience to guage how long these tasks should take, but it's also possible that you have your own misperceptions about how long they should take (either underestimating because they are more detailed than expected or overestimating because you may be very perfectionistic). Guaging these misperceptions on either of your parts would be really, really useful for therapy. Maybe ask around your lab or ask more experienced graduate students to see if their expectations match yours?
It also may be that you just will not be able to find common ground with the current therapist. If you are looking for someone who would have a particular understanding in terms of understanding scientific process, you might consider finding a psychologist with a Ph.D. as your next therapist. They would have had to complete some kind of research and dissertation as part of their training, and may come with a more basic understanding of the process you are describing.
You are absolutely doing the right thing by seeking out therapy and actively participating by asking questions. Good luck to you in your work.
posted by goggie at 11:01 AM on May 16, 2011
A couple of other thoughts: It may be that part of the misunderstanding is a lack of information on both your parts about what the demands should be. Maybe they have not had the experience to guage how long these tasks should take, but it's also possible that you have your own misperceptions about how long they should take (either underestimating because they are more detailed than expected or overestimating because you may be very perfectionistic). Guaging these misperceptions on either of your parts would be really, really useful for therapy. Maybe ask around your lab or ask more experienced graduate students to see if their expectations match yours?
It also may be that you just will not be able to find common ground with the current therapist. If you are looking for someone who would have a particular understanding in terms of understanding scientific process, you might consider finding a psychologist with a Ph.D. as your next therapist. They would have had to complete some kind of research and dissertation as part of their training, and may come with a more basic understanding of the process you are describing.
You are absolutely doing the right thing by seeking out therapy and actively participating by asking questions. Good luck to you in your work.
posted by goggie at 11:01 AM on May 16, 2011
So a couple of thoughts from a non-expert on this topic:
- The details that you see as essential to your stories are probably NOT actually essential. The way you feel about things, how you react, etc are important, but the nuances of a research lab almost certainly aren't. I think potentially you might want to reconcile your beleif that this is essential with your Asperger's diagnosis - they might not be unrelated.
- I think it's fairly common to 'try out' a couple of different therapists till you find one that works. Trying someone new might be a good idea if you're not clicking with this guy.
- Psychiatrists (as opposed to therapists) are medical school graduates, and as such, you might respect his experience in high-pressure environments more. That being said, i want to repeat that you probably want to de-emphasize the importance of your therapist understanding the minutiae of your experiences versus your handling of those experiences.
posted by Kololo at 11:03 AM on May 16, 2011
- The details that you see as essential to your stories are probably NOT actually essential. The way you feel about things, how you react, etc are important, but the nuances of a research lab almost certainly aren't. I think potentially you might want to reconcile your beleif that this is essential with your Asperger's diagnosis - they might not be unrelated.
- I think it's fairly common to 'try out' a couple of different therapists till you find one that works. Trying someone new might be a good idea if you're not clicking with this guy.
- Psychiatrists (as opposed to therapists) are medical school graduates, and as such, you might respect his experience in high-pressure environments more. That being said, i want to repeat that you probably want to de-emphasize the importance of your therapist understanding the minutiae of your experiences versus your handling of those experiences.
posted by Kololo at 11:03 AM on May 16, 2011
I think you've identified something pretty important here. My therapist is not a scientist, but she works with lots and lots of graduate students besides me. It's not something I would have immediately thought was important when I started with her, but its turned out to be really helpful. Of course she knows nothing about the particular techniques I use or the problems I work on, but she's worked with so many students that she understands a lot about the structure of grad school in the hard sciences and where the various pressures come from. It means that when I say "I'm a terrible scientist because I feel like X when I do Y," she can say "really? because I talk to lots of students who feel that way."
I found this therapist because she's on the mental health staff at my university's Student Health Service, though I now see her in her private practice. I'd suggest starting with Student Health, or, since you mention Aspergers, the disability office may be able to recommend someone to you.
I would also second goggie's recommendation that you try to bring this up with your current therapist. He may be able to help you find a good vocabulary for talking to him about it, he may reveal that he understands more than you realize, or he may take this opportunity to recommend that you start seeing his colleague who would be able to provide more appropriate care for you.
posted by juliapangolin at 11:14 AM on May 16, 2011
I found this therapist because she's on the mental health staff at my university's Student Health Service, though I now see her in her private practice. I'd suggest starting with Student Health, or, since you mention Aspergers, the disability office may be able to recommend someone to you.
I would also second goggie's recommendation that you try to bring this up with your current therapist. He may be able to help you find a good vocabulary for talking to him about it, he may reveal that he understands more than you realize, or he may take this opportunity to recommend that you start seeing his colleague who would be able to provide more appropriate care for you.
posted by juliapangolin at 11:14 AM on May 16, 2011
I was going to say pretty much what Kololo said.
I'm sure a therapist with a scientific background or one who works with a lot of people in your field might in some ways be better equipped. But understanding what you do specifically in a given day and what your field is like is much less important for your therapist than is understanding what type of and how much stress your work creates in you specifically, and what your coping skills for those stressful situations are. It's not about the work. It's about you. A therapist isn't going to tell you how to become more efficient, add a skill set, or modify your job. They are going to help you better cope with stress, emotions, and distractions in a general sense. You aren't the only special snowflake in a high-stress field seeking therapy. Should a lawyer look to find a therapist who is a former lawyer? Extend that to all fields/jobs.
People want to be happier/less anxious/etc. but it's much easier for folks to focus on their environment instead of themselves as the thing that needs changing to make it happen. Part of therapy may be to overcome this hurdle.
Perhaps your best bet if you really want to put this issue aside and move on with therapy may be to find a psychologist with academic affiliations. Maybe look to the Psychology department at your institution, or if your privacy is an issue, perhaps the next nearest academic center.
posted by drpynchon at 11:23 AM on May 16, 2011
I'm sure a therapist with a scientific background or one who works with a lot of people in your field might in some ways be better equipped. But understanding what you do specifically in a given day and what your field is like is much less important for your therapist than is understanding what type of and how much stress your work creates in you specifically, and what your coping skills for those stressful situations are. It's not about the work. It's about you. A therapist isn't going to tell you how to become more efficient, add a skill set, or modify your job. They are going to help you better cope with stress, emotions, and distractions in a general sense. You aren't the only special snowflake in a high-stress field seeking therapy. Should a lawyer look to find a therapist who is a former lawyer? Extend that to all fields/jobs.
People want to be happier/less anxious/etc. but it's much easier for folks to focus on their environment instead of themselves as the thing that needs changing to make it happen. Part of therapy may be to overcome this hurdle.
Perhaps your best bet if you really want to put this issue aside and move on with therapy may be to find a psychologist with academic affiliations. Maybe look to the Psychology department at your institution, or if your privacy is an issue, perhaps the next nearest academic center.
posted by drpynchon at 11:23 AM on May 16, 2011
I agree with Kokolo's first point as well. It's what I was trying to say, put in much clearer terms.
posted by goggie at 11:27 AM on May 16, 2011
posted by goggie at 11:27 AM on May 16, 2011
I'm having trouble getting across to him what the research community's norms are and how I'm failing to meet them.
How do I make the best of this situation?
One thing that jumps right out to me is this:
You say that he doesn't have a sense of "what constitutes normal work hours/work schedules, easy vs difficult tasks, routine vs unusual tasks, etc in an experimental research setting."
Then you give examples of your tasks (e.g. "I had to ... design a new algorithm to sift through terabytes of data") and say "I'm used to explaining my work to laymen, but the usual broad-strokes overviews don't seem to be getting through to my therapist."
I think this might be part of your problem. I think that by explaining your work, you are giving your therapist a lot of information that is irrelevant/unnecessary for his purposes. Your therapist doesn't need to know what an algorithm is, or what a terrabyte is, or receive an explanation of it. You could call that whole task Task X and not give ANY detail about it at all. Because what's relevant is what you said above:
-what constitutes normal work hours/work schedules
-easy vs difficult tasks
-routine vs unusual tasks
You can tell your therapist:
-Normally I should be working on Task X for 3 hours a week, but I haven't worked on it at all in a month.
-Task X is moderately difficult
-Task X is a routine task.
And then,
-I need to finish Task X to even begin Task Y
etc.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:30 AM on May 16, 2011
How do I make the best of this situation?
One thing that jumps right out to me is this:
You say that he doesn't have a sense of "what constitutes normal work hours/work schedules, easy vs difficult tasks, routine vs unusual tasks, etc in an experimental research setting."
Then you give examples of your tasks (e.g. "I had to ... design a new algorithm to sift through terabytes of data") and say "I'm used to explaining my work to laymen, but the usual broad-strokes overviews don't seem to be getting through to my therapist."
I think this might be part of your problem. I think that by explaining your work, you are giving your therapist a lot of information that is irrelevant/unnecessary for his purposes. Your therapist doesn't need to know what an algorithm is, or what a terrabyte is, or receive an explanation of it. You could call that whole task Task X and not give ANY detail about it at all. Because what's relevant is what you said above:
-what constitutes normal work hours/work schedules
-easy vs difficult tasks
-routine vs unusual tasks
You can tell your therapist:
-Normally I should be working on Task X for 3 hours a week, but I haven't worked on it at all in a month.
-Task X is moderately difficult
-Task X is a routine task.
And then,
-I need to finish Task X to even begin Task Y
etc.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:30 AM on May 16, 2011
From the OP:
Thanks for all your great ideas so far, everyone. Two things:posted by jessamyn at 11:31 AM on May 16, 2011
1. I'm in upstate NY.
2. Yes, I agree that it's a possibility that I'm overemphasizing details or misinterpreting community norms. But I am 100% certain the issue is not entirely my cognitive distortions; in a lot of cases I have external objective evidence for how things are supposed to be -- for instance, my lab is unusual in that most people working at it keep similar, extremely regular hours, so it's obvious how much time students are supposed to spend in the lab. Or as another example, when he asks me to list some specific tasks I've been struggling with and I suggest some things that freshmen science majors could reasonably be expected to do in under an hour, and that I and hundreds of other freshmen at my undergrad did do in under an hour, I'd consider that pretty reasonable objective data that I'm not ludicrously underestimating the tasks' difficulty level; but he doesn't seem to buy that objective data, which is part of my frustration. (And possibly, yes, a sign that it's not as objective as I think, but seriously.)
(Reading this over, I think it's coming across a little snippy, which is not how I mean it at all, but I'm not sure how to smooth out the rough patches. Hopefully you all can take it in the spirit in which it's meant, which is just clarification.)
Is the following accurate?
You tell him, as evidence that you are struggling to complete tasks, that something that should have taken 1 hour and could have been done by any undergrad, instead took you 3 days to complete. Your therapist seems unconvinced that the task should have, in fact, taken 1 hour.
If that is the case, there is something funky with your therapy and I'm not convinced it's you. I mean, whenever I've talked to a therapist about shit like that and said things "it took me a week to do that site and it should have taken a day, maybe two at the most" we do not spend time talking about the mechanics of website design. We instead spend time talking about what the hell was going on when I was busy not doing website design.
Part of the job if a therapist it to challenge your premises and that is hugely valuable, but that is a level of challenge that is actually... kind of stupid.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:40 AM on May 16, 2011
You tell him, as evidence that you are struggling to complete tasks, that something that should have taken 1 hour and could have been done by any undergrad, instead took you 3 days to complete. Your therapist seems unconvinced that the task should have, in fact, taken 1 hour.
If that is the case, there is something funky with your therapy and I'm not convinced it's you. I mean, whenever I've talked to a therapist about shit like that and said things "it took me a week to do that site and it should have taken a day, maybe two at the most" we do not spend time talking about the mechanics of website design. We instead spend time talking about what the hell was going on when I was busy not doing website design.
Part of the job if a therapist it to challenge your premises and that is hugely valuable, but that is a level of challenge that is actually... kind of stupid.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:40 AM on May 16, 2011
Ah, on seeing your follow-up, it sounds like you do communicate the right information to him -- he just doesn't believe it? That sounds extremely irritating.
If I were you I might try saying the following:
You: This task is simple; freshman science majors are expected to do it in under an hour.
Therapist: Well, are you sure about that, it sounds pretty difficult to me.
You: Regardless *I* am expected to do it in under an hour, and I need help in meeting that expectation.
or
You: I was once able to complete this take in under an hour, and one of my goals in therapy is to be able to do so again.
or
You: Please take me at my word here.
In other words, it might be helpful, instead of pointing him to objective standards that he might dispute, to keep emphasizing what the expectations are that you have to meet, and what YOUR goals are.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2011
If I were you I might try saying the following:
You: This task is simple; freshman science majors are expected to do it in under an hour.
Therapist: Well, are you sure about that, it sounds pretty difficult to me.
You: Regardless *I* am expected to do it in under an hour, and I need help in meeting that expectation.
or
You: I was once able to complete this take in under an hour, and one of my goals in therapy is to be able to do so again.
or
You: Please take me at my word here.
In other words, it might be helpful, instead of pointing him to objective standards that he might dispute, to keep emphasizing what the expectations are that you have to meet, and what YOUR goals are.
posted by Ashley801 at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2011
Many universities have some sort of referral for psychological services. Perhaps you get some deal like 3-free sessions or some such.
When you ask to use this (I did it through the university ombudperson, but your health service might make more sense in your case), they should have a list of counselors for you. These people will be very used to taking academic clients.
I think you'd do better with someone you trust anyhow-- and it sounds like you don't trust your current therapist.
posted by nat at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2011
When you ask to use this (I did it through the university ombudperson, but your health service might make more sense in your case), they should have a list of counselors for you. These people will be very used to taking academic clients.
I think you'd do better with someone you trust anyhow-- and it sounds like you don't trust your current therapist.
posted by nat at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2011
As is the wont of scientists in career crises, you have stepped out of yourself and, looking at yourself from the outside, have concluded that you are failing in comparison to your peers and your previous self, and have hauled yourself off to the shop to be fixed, very much as you would your car if it developed difficulty passing semis on hills.
I think your therapist, on the other hand, sees this separation of yourself from yourself as a fundamental problem, likely the fundamental problem to be resolved in your therapy.
I'd say he is trying to get the process of reintegration started by challenging you on what looks to me like uncritical acceptance of the demands placed on you by your profession as legitimate. I don't think they are legitimate; the demands made on young scientists these days are ridiculous-- verging on the surreal, in fact. The very, very few who can meet them would probably be better off finding a more rewarding venue for their exceptional (and often rather Machiavellian) talents in the first place.
Science might be better off too, but that's another matter.
You are resisting him, and think he merely doesn't understand, but I think he is choosing to ally himself with that part of you which knows something is really wrong here, and is engaging in a sitdown strike, aka depression (in your case), until it gets some justice. I believe he's wise to do so.
posted by jamjam at 12:53 PM on May 16, 2011
I think your therapist, on the other hand, sees this separation of yourself from yourself as a fundamental problem, likely the fundamental problem to be resolved in your therapy.
I'd say he is trying to get the process of reintegration started by challenging you on what looks to me like uncritical acceptance of the demands placed on you by your profession as legitimate. I don't think they are legitimate; the demands made on young scientists these days are ridiculous-- verging on the surreal, in fact. The very, very few who can meet them would probably be better off finding a more rewarding venue for their exceptional (and often rather Machiavellian) talents in the first place.
Science might be better off too, but that's another matter.
You are resisting him, and think he merely doesn't understand, but I think he is choosing to ally himself with that part of you which knows something is really wrong here, and is engaging in a sitdown strike, aka depression (in your case), until it gets some justice. I believe he's wise to do so.
posted by jamjam at 12:53 PM on May 16, 2011
If the therapist you are seeing is not at the campus clinic, maybe it is worth trying to see someone there who presumably has more experience with seeing academics? I am assuming your university has a clinic or a psychologist on staff. I was quite impressed when I saw someone at our university by her level of background knowledge about the demands and expectations of academia. Obviously she didn't know things like what a specific methodology meant or the theories I was working with, but she knew, for example, that when I said I was expected to work evenings and weekends, and that I was likely to end up jobless if I didn't publish like a superstar, that I was not exaggerating. It probably also helped that about 90% of my department colleagues and students were also seeing her, or had been at some time!
posted by lollusc at 4:15 PM on May 16, 2011
posted by lollusc at 4:15 PM on May 16, 2011
My therapist and I both teach at a public college (not the same one). Once in a while, she irritates me by comparing my experiences to hers, or by assuming she knows what my experience is like. (There are a myriad of other reasons why she is a great therapist for me, so I ignore these occasional frustrations.)
My point is, it might actually be a good thing that your therapist [apparently] doesn't have a clue about your job. It gives him a different perspective that could be valuable to you. Someone who is too familiar might also be too quick to decide what the problem is, instead of working to figure out what your problem is.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 5:53 PM on May 16, 2011
My point is, it might actually be a good thing that your therapist [apparently] doesn't have a clue about your job. It gives him a different perspective that could be valuable to you. Someone who is too familiar might also be too quick to decide what the problem is, instead of working to figure out what your problem is.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 5:53 PM on May 16, 2011
I'm definitely going to go against Kololo.
Science PhDs, especially in N.America is pretty broken. Depending on the field and supervisor, even different than 10 years ago.
Hey - doing a post doc used to be a point of disappointment; that you had to work with someone else before you were a "sufficient" scientist.
--
I know/feel/...
You don't have aspergers... really? Do you?
Make a formal appointment with your supervisor to talk about these issues. Even if they don't seem like they're a good candidate - hey. It's their job and 2) maybe they've been able to fake that all along. Seriously; knowing how to fake it can ratchet up your yearly net earnings.
posted by porpoise at 10:17 PM on May 16, 2011
Science PhDs, especially in N.America is pretty broken. Depending on the field and supervisor, even different than 10 years ago.
Hey - doing a post doc used to be a point of disappointment; that you had to work with someone else before you were a "sufficient" scientist.
--
I know/feel/...
You don't have aspergers... really? Do you?
Make a formal appointment with your supervisor to talk about these issues. Even if they don't seem like they're a good candidate - hey. It's their job and 2) maybe they've been able to fake that all along. Seriously; knowing how to fake it can ratchet up your yearly net earnings.
posted by porpoise at 10:17 PM on May 16, 2011
>Do I need to recalibrate my expectations?
Even given the difficulties of connection associated with Asperger's syndrome, if your therapist has spent six months with you, and in the most generous interpretation, is still playing polarity and allying with a recalcitrant "part"...
you really, really ought to consider finding a more precise and efficient therapist.
Bluntly, a scientific background is unnecessary; what is necessary is the particular skill a good therapist should have, which is the ability to model your existing thinking processes and then very carefully use your existing thinking processes to help you re-measure the problems at hand...
so you can then look at things from new and more interesting perspectives...
such that you can then construct new methods for thinking about and completing your tasks, so that, with certain new adjustments now being incorporated, your results can begin to comfortably match or exceed the standards you find appropriate.
It may be that your standards as to what is appropriate will evolve over time... but the first step in any such evolution, given the time already spent, might usefully consist in finding a therapist with whom you can see some evidence of progress, sooner rather than later.
posted by darth_tedious at 12:54 AM on May 17, 2011
Even given the difficulties of connection associated with Asperger's syndrome, if your therapist has spent six months with you, and in the most generous interpretation, is still playing polarity and allying with a recalcitrant "part"...
you really, really ought to consider finding a more precise and efficient therapist.
Bluntly, a scientific background is unnecessary; what is necessary is the particular skill a good therapist should have, which is the ability to model your existing thinking processes and then very carefully use your existing thinking processes to help you re-measure the problems at hand...
so you can then look at things from new and more interesting perspectives...
such that you can then construct new methods for thinking about and completing your tasks, so that, with certain new adjustments now being incorporated, your results can begin to comfortably match or exceed the standards you find appropriate.
It may be that your standards as to what is appropriate will evolve over time... but the first step in any such evolution, given the time already spent, might usefully consist in finding a therapist with whom you can see some evidence of progress, sooner rather than later.
posted by darth_tedious at 12:54 AM on May 17, 2011
Porpoise - sorry, i don't understand how you're disagreeing with me? I didn't dispute that doing a PhD was frustrating and difficult (in fact, i didn't address the veracity of that assessment at all - because it's not the issue), rather i argued that the specific minutia that causes the OP to feel the need to see a therapist are probably not as important as his perceptions and reactions.
posted by Kololo at 10:23 AM on May 17, 2011
posted by Kololo at 10:23 AM on May 17, 2011
It would be helpful to know the credentials of your current therapist. Like bizzyb suggested, a clinical psychologist might be able to understand your situation better.
posted by monkeys with typewriters at 10:56 PM on May 17, 2011
posted by monkeys with typewriters at 10:56 PM on May 17, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bizzyb at 10:59 AM on May 16, 2011