Understanding guilt
March 10, 2011 9:09 PM Subscribe
How can I better understand my feelings of guilt towards my mother?
I know that sometimes feelings of guilt indicate that you have done something that deep down you know was "wrong" (as in not in line with the person you want to be, not acting with integrity) but other times feelings of guilt can come from other people "making you" feel guilty, i.e. manipulation.
Examples - if I say something mean to someone in a moment of jealousy or anger or annoyance, I might feel guilty later when I realise why I did it and how it must have made the other person feel. This is a case in point where my guilt is telling me I acted without integrity and need to apologise.
However, there are other situations of guilt where a person's (often passive aggressive) response to your actions are designed to induce guilt. For example my mother makes comments about my siblings and I moving away from our hometown where our parents still live, that make me feel "guilty" for leaving, but I know this is bullshit, and that I didn't do anything wrong (without integrity) by moving away to somewhere I prefer to live.
My mother also makes comments if I don't call often enough, or if I don't want to Skype (I hate Skype) with them, or if I don't spend enough time with them when I do go back to visit. This has gone on for years. (I'm 33 and moved away when I was 20.)
My relationship with my mother causes me a lot of grief because of this guilt. But I just can't figure out what I "should" feel guilty about regarding my mother and what I should recognise as her manipulation. It drives me crazy. When my mother says comments that make me feel guilty, I also get so angry. I feel that she is so needy and attached to us and doesn't have her own life enough.
But then there's my sister, who is such a "good daughter" compared to me, and calls my mum all the time, visits as much as she can, and does lots of nice things for my mum, because she knows my mum will love it. My sister hassles me a bit for not being more of an attentive, generous daughter. She thinks I am selfish and so does my mum, I'm pretty sure. But the thing is, I just don't want to be manipulated into "being a good daughter" by my mother's sulkiness or passive aggressive comments.
I find the comments and behaviour that my mother exhibits very repelling and it makes me want to have even less contact with her. It's not big things that she does, but just gets mad and sulky if I don't call "enough". As she would have it, I should call every week. But I don't feel like talking every week and the more pressure I feel to call, the less I want to. If I didn't feel the pressure I'm sure I'd be happy to call, maybe every 10 days or 2 weeks. But is that "bad" or selfish behaviour? SHOULD I call them every week? Is that how often a person should call their parents?
(My parents are still happily married, I do not have these issues with my dad who is very easy going.)
THe thing is, that I do visit them regularly (at least 3 times a year, and I live 1.5 hours flight away) and I email them often enough (I prefer email to phone) and I'm always there at christmas and I thank them for everything they do for me etc etc. I always call (and often send something) on their birthdays. I never forget their birthdays. I am in no way a neglectful shitty daughter.
Now my mother is on facebook, and I really don't want to be friends with her (I firmly believe facebook is for peers, and I have always stuck to that policy! I like to be irreverent and say whatever crap I feel like saying on facebook and not worry about what my mother will think...) But I can't help but feel guilty about not befriending my mum! She hasn't asked me, but I know she would like it if I asked her.
I just can't figure out if I "should" feel guilty, if I "should" befriend my mother on fb, if I "should" feel guilty about not calling them or being as nice to them as my sister is... If I am too selfish...
I just HATE being prey to manipulative behaviour, I don't want to stand for it, but I can't really distinguish what is me being a brat and what is my mother being manipulative. I think that if I didn't feel the guilt (which leads to resentment) I would want to call more and do more for them... the guilt makes me want to call them less.
If anyone has ANY INSIGHT into this dynamic I would REALLY appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.
I know that sometimes feelings of guilt indicate that you have done something that deep down you know was "wrong" (as in not in line with the person you want to be, not acting with integrity) but other times feelings of guilt can come from other people "making you" feel guilty, i.e. manipulation.
Examples - if I say something mean to someone in a moment of jealousy or anger or annoyance, I might feel guilty later when I realise why I did it and how it must have made the other person feel. This is a case in point where my guilt is telling me I acted without integrity and need to apologise.
However, there are other situations of guilt where a person's (often passive aggressive) response to your actions are designed to induce guilt. For example my mother makes comments about my siblings and I moving away from our hometown where our parents still live, that make me feel "guilty" for leaving, but I know this is bullshit, and that I didn't do anything wrong (without integrity) by moving away to somewhere I prefer to live.
My mother also makes comments if I don't call often enough, or if I don't want to Skype (I hate Skype) with them, or if I don't spend enough time with them when I do go back to visit. This has gone on for years. (I'm 33 and moved away when I was 20.)
My relationship with my mother causes me a lot of grief because of this guilt. But I just can't figure out what I "should" feel guilty about regarding my mother and what I should recognise as her manipulation. It drives me crazy. When my mother says comments that make me feel guilty, I also get so angry. I feel that she is so needy and attached to us and doesn't have her own life enough.
But then there's my sister, who is such a "good daughter" compared to me, and calls my mum all the time, visits as much as she can, and does lots of nice things for my mum, because she knows my mum will love it. My sister hassles me a bit for not being more of an attentive, generous daughter. She thinks I am selfish and so does my mum, I'm pretty sure. But the thing is, I just don't want to be manipulated into "being a good daughter" by my mother's sulkiness or passive aggressive comments.
I find the comments and behaviour that my mother exhibits very repelling and it makes me want to have even less contact with her. It's not big things that she does, but just gets mad and sulky if I don't call "enough". As she would have it, I should call every week. But I don't feel like talking every week and the more pressure I feel to call, the less I want to. If I didn't feel the pressure I'm sure I'd be happy to call, maybe every 10 days or 2 weeks. But is that "bad" or selfish behaviour? SHOULD I call them every week? Is that how often a person should call their parents?
(My parents are still happily married, I do not have these issues with my dad who is very easy going.)
THe thing is, that I do visit them regularly (at least 3 times a year, and I live 1.5 hours flight away) and I email them often enough (I prefer email to phone) and I'm always there at christmas and I thank them for everything they do for me etc etc. I always call (and often send something) on their birthdays. I never forget their birthdays. I am in no way a neglectful shitty daughter.
Now my mother is on facebook, and I really don't want to be friends with her (I firmly believe facebook is for peers, and I have always stuck to that policy! I like to be irreverent and say whatever crap I feel like saying on facebook and not worry about what my mother will think...) But I can't help but feel guilty about not befriending my mum! She hasn't asked me, but I know she would like it if I asked her.
I just can't figure out if I "should" feel guilty, if I "should" befriend my mother on fb, if I "should" feel guilty about not calling them or being as nice to them as my sister is... If I am too selfish...
I just HATE being prey to manipulative behaviour, I don't want to stand for it, but I can't really distinguish what is me being a brat and what is my mother being manipulative. I think that if I didn't feel the guilt (which leads to resentment) I would want to call more and do more for them... the guilt makes me want to call them less.
If anyone has ANY INSIGHT into this dynamic I would REALLY appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.
"My relationship with my mother causes me a lot of grief because of this guilt. But I just can't figure out what I "should" feel guilty about regarding my mother and what I should recognise as her manipulation."
I think both of these are the wrong reaction and you should quit trying to sort these into "acceptable guilt" vs. "manipulation." Your mother misses you and wants to talk to you! You did nothing wrong by moving away, but she's doing nothing wrong by missing you. It doesn't strike me that either of you is behaving in a particularly adult fashion or expressing those feelings in a particularly constructive way, but I don't see any need for guilt OR anger here -- I see a need for compassion. This is someone who loves you very much, who may not have "enough of her own life" in your view but for a long time being a mother WAS her entire life. I think you should try to approach her with compassion and understanding and RELAX about who did what to whom so who is justified in feeling guilt or anger. Sheesh.
"But the thing is, I just don't want to be manipulated into "being a good daughter" by my mother's sulkiness or passive aggressive comments. "
This is bratty, as is the "I don't want to call because they pressure me to call but I'd be happy to call if they'd quit pressuring me." As a contrary person myself I recognize the impulse and sympathize with it, but at 33 you gotta get over it and realize that impulse to resist-for-the-sake-of-resisting damages YOU more often than it sticks it to anybody else.
P.S. -- You're 33. Stop competing with your sister. And draw a firm boundary that doesn't let her play go-between, whether that's her doing or your mom sending her; just say, "That's between me and mom, sis; now did you say you changed your hair?" whenever she mentions you should be nicer to mom. (Of course it's legitimate for her to pass on a message -- "mom wanted you to know she sent you an amazon box today" -- but letting other family members into your dispute is just bad news.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:33 PM on March 10, 2011 [14 favorites]
I think both of these are the wrong reaction and you should quit trying to sort these into "acceptable guilt" vs. "manipulation." Your mother misses you and wants to talk to you! You did nothing wrong by moving away, but she's doing nothing wrong by missing you. It doesn't strike me that either of you is behaving in a particularly adult fashion or expressing those feelings in a particularly constructive way, but I don't see any need for guilt OR anger here -- I see a need for compassion. This is someone who loves you very much, who may not have "enough of her own life" in your view but for a long time being a mother WAS her entire life. I think you should try to approach her with compassion and understanding and RELAX about who did what to whom so who is justified in feeling guilt or anger. Sheesh.
"But the thing is, I just don't want to be manipulated into "being a good daughter" by my mother's sulkiness or passive aggressive comments. "
This is bratty, as is the "I don't want to call because they pressure me to call but I'd be happy to call if they'd quit pressuring me." As a contrary person myself I recognize the impulse and sympathize with it, but at 33 you gotta get over it and realize that impulse to resist-for-the-sake-of-resisting damages YOU more often than it sticks it to anybody else.
P.S. -- You're 33. Stop competing with your sister. And draw a firm boundary that doesn't let her play go-between, whether that's her doing or your mom sending her; just say, "That's between me and mom, sis; now did you say you changed your hair?" whenever she mentions you should be nicer to mom. (Of course it's legitimate for her to pass on a message -- "mom wanted you to know she sent you an amazon box today" -- but letting other family members into your dispute is just bad news.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:33 PM on March 10, 2011 [14 favorites]
Best answer: Speaking as a mother of grown children here: your mother is laying guilt trips on you. Don't let her manipulate you this way.
It would help us to know how old you both are. If she's 85, then ok, she really needs you more. but if she's 50, tell her to get a life, or see a therapist. She's asking you to satisfy her emotional needs, and that shouldn't be your role.
posted by mareli at 9:36 PM on March 10, 2011 [8 favorites]
It would help us to know how old you both are. If she's 85, then ok, she really needs you more. but if she's 50, tell her to get a life, or see a therapist. She's asking you to satisfy her emotional needs, and that shouldn't be your role.
posted by mareli at 9:36 PM on March 10, 2011 [8 favorites]
I have an overbearing mother. I assumed based on your initial comments that you do, too. However, my mom gets upset if we don't talk daily.
Once a week is reasonable. I think (and I'm only saying this because you asked), you're being a bit selfish.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:47 PM on March 10, 2011 [5 favorites]
Once a week is reasonable. I think (and I'm only saying this because you asked), you're being a bit selfish.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:47 PM on March 10, 2011 [5 favorites]
Do you love your mom? Does she love you? Do you otherwise have a good and healthy relationship with your mother? Then I think you should make more of an effort to communicate with her. I think once a week communication is a pretty good standard especially since you don't live nearby. The question you should ask yourself is, would you feel guilty about not calling your mom once a week if she died tomorrow? If she were dead, would you nod your head and say "I did the right thing, she should have gotten a life and seen a therapist."
If your mom is bipolar, schizophrenic or otherwise mentally unbalanced, then dismiss my advice.
I always call (and often send something) on their birthdays. I never forget their birthdays.
Phone calls are always better when they aren't expected.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 9:55 PM on March 10, 2011
If your mom is bipolar, schizophrenic or otherwise mentally unbalanced, then dismiss my advice.
I always call (and often send something) on their birthdays. I never forget their birthdays.
Phone calls are always better when they aren't expected.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 9:55 PM on March 10, 2011
There was a big To Do in my family when I moved away to go to college. My mom wanted to talk at least once a week, and I was engrossed in the College Experience and didn't have "time" to talk to her on the phone. She was making me feel guilty, and that made me resist even harder. Then at Christmas there was a big blow-up about it, and my father had to intervene.
MaryDellamorte says that phone calls are better unexpected, but I think there is also a benefit to a set minimum schedule of phone calls. Then instead of laying on the guilt when you finally call, your mom can look forward to getting to talk to you on the phone once every week or 10 days or 2 weeks. The same things with visits. When you finish one visit, make sure she knows when the next one is going to be. Your mother might be making you feel guilty, but I think the reason why she keeps guilting you about is that it is really something that is important to her. It doesn't seem like she is demanding much else from you or trying to intervene in all other parts of her life, so it seems like it would be nice to give her this one thing that she wants.
posted by that girl at 10:39 PM on March 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Mom, your daughter loves you and is not avoiding talking to you because she doesn't love you."So I talked to her once a weekend on the phone unless one of us wasn't around that particular weekend. At points I kind of dreaded having to talk to her (I am the worst at small talk, and my life can be pretty boring), but eventually I got over it and I actually tend to enjoy talking to my mother now, and I actually prefer Skype to the phone. The asynchronous manner of email makes it feel a lot less personal, and I know that my mother finds typing to be a chore and rather unpleasant.
"Daughter, talk to your mother once a week, it will maker her happy and it really isn't that hard, is it?"
MaryDellamorte says that phone calls are better unexpected, but I think there is also a benefit to a set minimum schedule of phone calls. Then instead of laying on the guilt when you finally call, your mom can look forward to getting to talk to you on the phone once every week or 10 days or 2 weeks. The same things with visits. When you finish one visit, make sure she knows when the next one is going to be. Your mother might be making you feel guilty, but I think the reason why she keeps guilting you about is that it is really something that is important to her. It doesn't seem like she is demanding much else from you or trying to intervene in all other parts of her life, so it seems like it would be nice to give her this one thing that she wants.
posted by that girl at 10:39 PM on March 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of you; I moved away from my hometown and hate talking on the phone. However, I don't think one call per week is asking too much. I don't believe that's the definition of "needy" and "without her own life."
You don't have to spend an hour on the phone. Take 10 minutes out of one week and give your mom an update on what's going on in your life. If I really don't want to talk to my mom but it's been a while, I call anyway to give a brief rundown of the fun things I did that week. Talking about these things is enjoyable and moodlifting. I might also call before my dinner or an important appointment so I have an escape.
EXAMPLE:
I went whitewater rafting! I didn't fall out but came away with impressive bruises. Maybe Brother can join us next time?
The Wise Man's Fear was released earlier this month. Do you want my copy after I finish it? It was stupidly expensive at Barnes & Noble.
(Insert more babbling and asking her how her week was...)
I'm currently at my favorite BBQ place... oh, here comes the food, I have to go. I'll call you later.
---
Obviously, we also have conversations with more substance than that, but it's something and makes her happy. Eventually, I came to like weekly (or twice weekly!) calls with her and kinda got over my phone phobia.
posted by plaintiff6r at 10:39 PM on March 10, 2011
You don't have to spend an hour on the phone. Take 10 minutes out of one week and give your mom an update on what's going on in your life. If I really don't want to talk to my mom but it's been a while, I call anyway to give a brief rundown of the fun things I did that week. Talking about these things is enjoyable and moodlifting. I might also call before my dinner or an important appointment so I have an escape.
EXAMPLE:
I went whitewater rafting! I didn't fall out but came away with impressive bruises. Maybe Brother can join us next time?
The Wise Man's Fear was released earlier this month. Do you want my copy after I finish it? It was stupidly expensive at Barnes & Noble.
(Insert more babbling and asking her how her week was...)
I'm currently at my favorite BBQ place... oh, here comes the food, I have to go. I'll call you later.
---
Obviously, we also have conversations with more substance than that, but it's something and makes her happy. Eventually, I came to like weekly (or twice weekly!) calls with her and kinda got over my phone phobia.
posted by plaintiff6r at 10:39 PM on March 10, 2011
Your mom sounds almost like mine, except mine is worse. She throws massive shit fits if I don't call her a minimum of twice a week. I could go on.
You feel guilty because (a) she needs more attention than you can or want to give her, (b) we're all raised to be self-sacrificing towards our relatives, especially if you're female, (c) if you have a manipulative, lonely, guilt-inducing mom, you got raised to feel guilty if you weren't fulfilling her every need all the time, and (d) if you don't fulfill her needs, it's like you're kicking a Perfectly Nice Needy Old Lady in the teeth. Of COURSE you feel like a guilty asshole. How can you not?Logic doesn't really factor into that.
Technically you didn't do anything wrong, but emotionally, she makes sure you know that YOU HURT HER by not staying, by not moving home, by not calling all the time. And with a sister like yours, that can't help either. You are hurting her by not fulfilling her every need. It's especially frustrating when they won't get a life and insist on relying on you (and your sister) alone to get her needy taken care of.
Whether that's right or not, I don't know. I haven't found a solution to the problem and fight that battle every day myself. I've dragged my mom to therapy and that's only improved things for so long. But you have to keep in mind that for most people, this is NOT a normal situation. Some people talk to their moms every day and love it, but that's because their moms are sane and both of them like talking on the phone. Some moms aren't chatty and don't CARE if they don't hear from their kids for a month. It varies depending on the mom's neediness and sanity. Your mom and mine, alas, are always going to be high maintenance and crazy needy and crazy making.
I think you have to accept that she's just going to feel bad no matter what you do, and you're going to feel bad no matter what you do. You can't please her. My mom always wanted me to call her every goddamned day like Oprah and Gayle. After my dad went into the hospital, I did that for a year and a half. It did not make her happier or less needy, it did make me kinda suicidal. And now she doesn't even remember that I did it, and if you ask her about it, she will swear I NEVER called her daily. See how much good it did for me to cave in?
Do the bare minimum you have to do to "get away with it" and at least have less drama. If she absolutely requires once a week calls, it probably isn't worth the drama and hell to fight it (god knows I've tried). It's the price you pay to have a family.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:12 PM on March 10, 2011 [5 favorites]
You feel guilty because (a) she needs more attention than you can or want to give her, (b) we're all raised to be self-sacrificing towards our relatives, especially if you're female, (c) if you have a manipulative, lonely, guilt-inducing mom, you got raised to feel guilty if you weren't fulfilling her every need all the time, and (d) if you don't fulfill her needs, it's like you're kicking a Perfectly Nice Needy Old Lady in the teeth. Of COURSE you feel like a guilty asshole. How can you not?Logic doesn't really factor into that.
Technically you didn't do anything wrong, but emotionally, she makes sure you know that YOU HURT HER by not staying, by not moving home, by not calling all the time. And with a sister like yours, that can't help either. You are hurting her by not fulfilling her every need. It's especially frustrating when they won't get a life and insist on relying on you (and your sister) alone to get her needy taken care of.
Whether that's right or not, I don't know. I haven't found a solution to the problem and fight that battle every day myself. I've dragged my mom to therapy and that's only improved things for so long. But you have to keep in mind that for most people, this is NOT a normal situation. Some people talk to their moms every day and love it, but that's because their moms are sane and both of them like talking on the phone. Some moms aren't chatty and don't CARE if they don't hear from their kids for a month. It varies depending on the mom's neediness and sanity. Your mom and mine, alas, are always going to be high maintenance and crazy needy and crazy making.
I think you have to accept that she's just going to feel bad no matter what you do, and you're going to feel bad no matter what you do. You can't please her. My mom always wanted me to call her every goddamned day like Oprah and Gayle. After my dad went into the hospital, I did that for a year and a half. It did not make her happier or less needy, it did make me kinda suicidal. And now she doesn't even remember that I did it, and if you ask her about it, she will swear I NEVER called her daily. See how much good it did for me to cave in?
Do the bare minimum you have to do to "get away with it" and at least have less drama. If she absolutely requires once a week calls, it probably isn't worth the drama and hell to fight it (god knows I've tried). It's the price you pay to have a family.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:12 PM on March 10, 2011 [5 favorites]
My mother isn't around anymore and I loved her to bits -- when she was alive, we talked on the phone almost daily -- but as a person who, like you, hates small talk, I empathize with your predicament. When I moved away, I knew she'd miss me (and I, her), but we had our own style of keeping in touch. We shared a similar sense of humor and political bent, so when something silly or absurd would come on tv or in the papers, one of us would call the other to talk and laugh about it. Some of our conversations were only two or three minutes long, but since they were spontaneous and spread throughout the week, my mother never felt neglected.
Try to think of things that you and your mom have in common (hobbies, tv shows, books, music, whatever) and call her during or after you've seen/watched/read it. She'll be tickled pink that you're thinking of her when you're doing one of your favorite activities and probably won't even notice that you just talked for a few minutes instead of an hour or two.
Also, stop keeping score (mentally) of how much time your sister clocks in vs you. That's not important. What is important, is the end result: you and your mom having positive interactions -- not because you have to, but because you want to.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 11:16 PM on March 10, 2011
Try to think of things that you and your mom have in common (hobbies, tv shows, books, music, whatever) and call her during or after you've seen/watched/read it. She'll be tickled pink that you're thinking of her when you're doing one of your favorite activities and probably won't even notice that you just talked for a few minutes instead of an hour or two.
Also, stop keeping score (mentally) of how much time your sister clocks in vs you. That's not important. What is important, is the end result: you and your mom having positive interactions -- not because you have to, but because you want to.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 11:16 PM on March 10, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for your input! As usual on metafilter I've received all colours of the rainbow here. Some of you think I'm being a brat and some of you think my mother is out of line...
A few details that I should mention
- the sister (that I mention) and I are not competitive, we actually like each other a lot and get along well, I don't feel at all competitive with her. It's just that we are very different, she was always the generous, sensitive one (it is seriously just her nature) and I have always been the independent, "harsher", opinionated one... We are just so different, and so the way she sees me is being selfish and difficult in relation to my mother, but she also acknowledges that my mother is very needy and gets sulky and needs therapy (there's a lot more issues here than I've explained... it would take hours to get it all down), but she is just happy to give my mum what she needs... where as I am obviously less generous.
- There are 4 of us (children) in the family and we all moved away from the hometown but are still in the country.
- My mum is 63 and lives with my dad. Yeah I guess she is lonely, but I also think, she has never really "let other people in" so she relies on her children for her intimacy/closeness with people. She could have done things differently in that regard.
- I hate talking on the phone... to anyone. I'm happy to visit as often as I do and I'm happy for them to visit me, which they do, and I just don't want to have to talk every week.
As @jenfullmoon pointed out, I do NOT think she would lay the same guilt trips on me if I were a guy. In fact I'm pretty sure she doesn't do it to my brother. What is with that?
Anyway thanks everyone for weighing in, I appreciate it. Keep em coming!
posted by saturn~jupiter at 12:21 AM on March 11, 2011
A few details that I should mention
- the sister (that I mention) and I are not competitive, we actually like each other a lot and get along well, I don't feel at all competitive with her. It's just that we are very different, she was always the generous, sensitive one (it is seriously just her nature) and I have always been the independent, "harsher", opinionated one... We are just so different, and so the way she sees me is being selfish and difficult in relation to my mother, but she also acknowledges that my mother is very needy and gets sulky and needs therapy (there's a lot more issues here than I've explained... it would take hours to get it all down), but she is just happy to give my mum what she needs... where as I am obviously less generous.
- There are 4 of us (children) in the family and we all moved away from the hometown but are still in the country.
- My mum is 63 and lives with my dad. Yeah I guess she is lonely, but I also think, she has never really "let other people in" so she relies on her children for her intimacy/closeness with people. She could have done things differently in that regard.
- I hate talking on the phone... to anyone. I'm happy to visit as often as I do and I'm happy for them to visit me, which they do, and I just don't want to have to talk every week.
As @jenfullmoon pointed out, I do NOT think she would lay the same guilt trips on me if I were a guy. In fact I'm pretty sure she doesn't do it to my brother. What is with that?
Anyway thanks everyone for weighing in, I appreciate it. Keep em coming!
posted by saturn~jupiter at 12:21 AM on March 11, 2011
It might be interesting for you to check out Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns. He talks in detail about "should statements".
posted by hapax_legomenon at 12:30 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by hapax_legomenon at 12:30 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hey, I have this this problem. I've had this problem since I moved away, when I was about twenty. I'm 42 (I think--it's 4am and I'm not sure how old I am.). So you may be enjoying this dynamic for a long time!
I manage this by doing the once-ish a week call and doing it while I'm already trapped doing busy work. Typically, we do laundry Saturdays and I'll fold it while talking to her, or walk the dog, or sort papers on my desk--things that I also have to do but don't particularly want to do.
I'm not chatty, so talking on the phone is really hard for me. I have no opinion on Colin Firth, who my mom seems to have a mild crush on, or whether True Grit was rightly nominated for an Oscar. I didn't even know that movie was produced this year, and I barely know who Colin Firth is. If she asks me what a book I'm reading is 'about' I feel like I've been given homework. "It's about some guy, Mom."
What I've learned to do is get better at sucking it up and get better at doing it strategically while I'm doing something else. It also helps if you go into it with something to talk about yourself -- you're thinking of buying a new car or whatever.
Re. FB: surrender to the great maw that is Facebook, destroyer of boundaries, realm of the socially awkward and weird. Seriously, I think you're going to lose that battle to keep it to 'peers'. Sooner or later you're going to get friended by your boss or something. It is not a place for the cool kids, it's more like a bus terminal where you see into the lives of everyone you know at random. I am friends with my partner's boss. Navigate that social terrain if you dare.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:33 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I manage this by doing the once-ish a week call and doing it while I'm already trapped doing busy work. Typically, we do laundry Saturdays and I'll fold it while talking to her, or walk the dog, or sort papers on my desk--things that I also have to do but don't particularly want to do.
I'm not chatty, so talking on the phone is really hard for me. I have no opinion on Colin Firth, who my mom seems to have a mild crush on, or whether True Grit was rightly nominated for an Oscar. I didn't even know that movie was produced this year, and I barely know who Colin Firth is. If she asks me what a book I'm reading is 'about' I feel like I've been given homework. "It's about some guy, Mom."
What I've learned to do is get better at sucking it up and get better at doing it strategically while I'm doing something else. It also helps if you go into it with something to talk about yourself -- you're thinking of buying a new car or whatever.
Re. FB: surrender to the great maw that is Facebook, destroyer of boundaries, realm of the socially awkward and weird. Seriously, I think you're going to lose that battle to keep it to 'peers'. Sooner or later you're going to get friended by your boss or something. It is not a place for the cool kids, it's more like a bus terminal where you see into the lives of everyone you know at random. I am friends with my partner's boss. Navigate that social terrain if you dare.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:33 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
It might help if we knew more about what these manipulations look like, because they are undoubtedly 2-way exchanges in which your mother does something that triggers you to do something in response that rewards her for whatever it was she did. Maybe she thinks you'd call even less frequently if she didn't pester you? Regardless, she is not some supervillain in a cave pressing the big, glowing guilt-ray button. You are a participant, in ways I don't think you've made clear here. You've mentioned her "comments," but not what those comments were, or the context in which they were said, or what you said in return.
I get the sense, from your worries about how your mother and sister see you, and also from your discomfort with the idea of friending your mom on FB, that you might be uncomfortable being yourself around them. If you aren't assertively standing up for who you really are, and are instead inclined to doubt your right to feel the way you do, and if this leads you to be deferential and hide parts of your real nature from potential judgment, then it makes sense that even minor complaints or criticism might assume an overbearing, larger-than-life sort of feel. You tried so hard to avoid this scrutiny, but you were trapped! Guilt-tripped! Manipulated! When really, you're looking at an ant through a magnifying glass. It looks scary, but if you tilt the lens just a bit, the ant will fry.
I think Eyebrows McGee strikes the right note above, as she suggests a mixture of compassion, assertiveness and generally a more mature way of relating to your family. Nobody is "making" you feel anything. They are doing their thing, and you're responding, both behaviorally and emotionally, in a way that isn't working for you. That's a problem you can address without waiting and wishing for them to change spontaneously.
I don't know what you typically say or do when your mom gets in a dig about how rarely you call or visit, but you could try something along the lines of, "Mom, you spawned an introvert. Small talk drives me up a wall. But I love you."
posted by jon1270 at 3:13 AM on March 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
I get the sense, from your worries about how your mother and sister see you, and also from your discomfort with the idea of friending your mom on FB, that you might be uncomfortable being yourself around them. If you aren't assertively standing up for who you really are, and are instead inclined to doubt your right to feel the way you do, and if this leads you to be deferential and hide parts of your real nature from potential judgment, then it makes sense that even minor complaints or criticism might assume an overbearing, larger-than-life sort of feel. You tried so hard to avoid this scrutiny, but you were trapped! Guilt-tripped! Manipulated! When really, you're looking at an ant through a magnifying glass. It looks scary, but if you tilt the lens just a bit, the ant will fry.
I think Eyebrows McGee strikes the right note above, as she suggests a mixture of compassion, assertiveness and generally a more mature way of relating to your family. Nobody is "making" you feel anything. They are doing their thing, and you're responding, both behaviorally and emotionally, in a way that isn't working for you. That's a problem you can address without waiting and wishing for them to change spontaneously.
I don't know what you typically say or do when your mom gets in a dig about how rarely you call or visit, but you could try something along the lines of, "Mom, you spawned an introvert. Small talk drives me up a wall. But I love you."
posted by jon1270 at 3:13 AM on March 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: To literally answer your question:
I find the comments and behaviour that my mother exhibits very repelling
That's what you feel guilty about. You're guilt of feeling angry when your mother says what she says because it's in conflict to how you want to think about your relationship with her.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:32 AM on March 11, 2011
I find the comments and behaviour that my mother exhibits very repelling
That's what you feel guilty about. You're guilt of feeling angry when your mother says what she says because it's in conflict to how you want to think about your relationship with her.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:32 AM on March 11, 2011
It also helps if you go into it with something to talk about yourself -- you're thinking of buying a new car or whatever.
Agree.
This is what helps me deal with calling my Dad.
Well. Usually.
My Dad talks can easily talk for an hour. And if he's had a few beers, he starts talking about my Mom who left him 11 years ago. So it's very difficult for me to give him a call even though I love him very much.
I haaaaaaaaaaaate talking on the phone. It's probably because most of friends and family (besides my mom) talk forEVER and I have hard time interrupting them to tell them I'm hanging up.
But it's easier if you come up with some stuff you want to talk about. That way it makes it more interesting for yourself and it feels less like a chore.
I also noticed it lifts my dad's mood up if I call looking for advice on something. And usually I can say, "Alright, well I'm gonna use your advice." and then end the conversation.
posted by KogeLiz at 6:33 AM on March 11, 2011
Agree.
This is what helps me deal with calling my Dad.
Well. Usually.
My Dad talks can easily talk for an hour. And if he's had a few beers, he starts talking about my Mom who left him 11 years ago. So it's very difficult for me to give him a call even though I love him very much.
I haaaaaaaaaaaate talking on the phone. It's probably because most of friends and family (besides my mom) talk forEVER and I have hard time interrupting them to tell them I'm hanging up.
But it's easier if you come up with some stuff you want to talk about. That way it makes it more interesting for yourself and it feels less like a chore.
I also noticed it lifts my dad's mood up if I call looking for advice on something. And usually I can say, "Alright, well I'm gonna use your advice." and then end the conversation.
posted by KogeLiz at 6:33 AM on March 11, 2011
I have a friend who had always felt guilty, angry and sad about the state of the relationship with her mother. She found a lot of people who had very similar experiences at DOMN
http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/donm-journey.html
I know that NPD is not recognized as a "thing" any more but in the forum, she found a lot of other women were going through exactly what you describe.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:38 AM on March 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/donm-journey.html
I know that NPD is not recognized as a "thing" any more but in the forum, she found a lot of other women were going through exactly what you describe.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:38 AM on March 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's really to the degree of manipulation- she sounds more like a big nag. Moms are allowed to nag and daughters are allowed to roll their eyes.
If she REALLY REALLY REALLY wants weekly phone calls, and she's not a psycho who ruined your life and the worst thing is you don't like the phone? suck it up and call her for ten minutes a week. Start with "hey ma, i was just thinking about you on the way to the supermarket. Do you have ten min?" and then cut her off after the allotted time.
As for this weird thing with your sister... you are thirty three. If she wants to do more stuff and be extra nice to your mama, then you should say thanks. She is doing something really nice for a person you love. Don't feel guilty or assign your sister opinions that you don't even know are hers FOR SURE. You don't have the resources, time or emotion energy to do it for your mom, and she does. "So, thanks sis. I really appreciate that you do the things that i can't. It's a real kindness to mom. "
obviously, if she is really a two headed abusive dogbeast, then ignore.
posted by Blisterlips at 9:07 AM on March 11, 2011
If she REALLY REALLY REALLY wants weekly phone calls, and she's not a psycho who ruined your life and the worst thing is you don't like the phone? suck it up and call her for ten minutes a week. Start with "hey ma, i was just thinking about you on the way to the supermarket. Do you have ten min?" and then cut her off after the allotted time.
As for this weird thing with your sister... you are thirty three. If she wants to do more stuff and be extra nice to your mama, then you should say thanks. She is doing something really nice for a person you love. Don't feel guilty or assign your sister opinions that you don't even know are hers FOR SURE. You don't have the resources, time or emotion energy to do it for your mom, and she does. "So, thanks sis. I really appreciate that you do the things that i can't. It's a real kindness to mom. "
obviously, if she is really a two headed abusive dogbeast, then ignore.
posted by Blisterlips at 9:07 AM on March 11, 2011
Best answer: I think it's natural to feel a little guilty about setting boundaries. You have to come to terms with it being OK to doing something good for yourself and teaching others how to treat you. I struggle with that too, so I know how you feel.
As for your Mom's facebook presence, you can put people in different lists and only expose them to certain parts of your profile.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:20 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
As for your Mom's facebook presence, you can put people in different lists and only expose them to certain parts of your profile.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:20 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm not seeing your mother as being manipulative. FWIW, I have a REALLY full (and fun!) life but I still talk to my mother everyday on the phone (I hate phones and she is the only person I still call) and drive 2+ hours to her house at least once a week. I'd love it if my mom was on FB because I would like to share more of my life with her. It makes me sad to think my own daughter would only talk to me every couple of weeks when she moves away.
Unless there is BPD/NPD or unresolved childhood trauma going on I think you need to work on your empathy for the woman who raised you - she made the choice to have a family for the intimate relationship, not the yearly birthday card like what she gets from her dentist.
I think the source of the guilt is that you recognise you ARE treating your mother's reasonable request to have a relationship and weekly phone call poorly.
posted by saucysault at 9:26 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Unless there is BPD/NPD or unresolved childhood trauma going on I think you need to work on your empathy for the woman who raised you - she made the choice to have a family for the intimate relationship, not the yearly birthday card like what she gets from her dentist.
I think the source of the guilt is that you recognise you ARE treating your mother's reasonable request to have a relationship and weekly phone call poorly.
posted by saucysault at 9:26 AM on March 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Would she be okay with weekly postcards & a call every two weeks? Or does she "just" want a phone call and postcards simply won't do?
Bottom line--you need to do what's emotionally healthy for you.
posted by luckynerd at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2011
Bottom line--you need to do what's emotionally healthy for you.
posted by luckynerd at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2011
"A son is a son until he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter for all of your life".
Regarding your comment on your brother, it is a stereotype and not always true, but since she is from the older generation she may believe it and have different expectations for your relationship.
posted by saucysault at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2011
Regarding your comment on your brother, it is a stereotype and not always true, but since she is from the older generation she may believe it and have different expectations for your relationship.
posted by saucysault at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2011
Best answer: I think the dynamic here is you don't want to be manipulated and pull back, and she senses the pulling back and is more insistent.
My son is a bit like you and I usually don't push him to call at all. When he does call we have great conversations because he is in the mood to talk. I otoh would like to hear from him once a week but I know that is not how he is wired.
Can you separate how you feel about your mother in general from how you feel about being pushed? Decide how often you would call based on the first and then do THAT.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 10:27 AM on March 11, 2011
My son is a bit like you and I usually don't push him to call at all. When he does call we have great conversations because he is in the mood to talk. I otoh would like to hear from him once a week but I know that is not how he is wired.
Can you separate how you feel about your mother in general from how you feel about being pushed? Decide how often you would call based on the first and then do THAT.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 10:27 AM on March 11, 2011
I could have written this exact post at pretty much any age. (I'm 36 now.) What I suspect you probably aren't saying, and what's causing a lot of people here to say, "just suck it up and call her," is that when you do call, the conversation goes something like this:
You: "I went out with my friends last night and we had ice cream."
Mom: "You shouldn't eat ice cream, you know, it will lead to diabetes. Did I tell you about the cruise your dad and I went on? Everyone was SO FAT. They just had no control when eating. You need to go get yourself tested for diabetes."
You: "... soooooo, I'm also planning a trip to London next month..."
Mom: "Oh!! Is your hotel in a safe neighborhood? Go to the bank and get traveller's checks."
You: "Well, really no one uses those anymore. In a big city like London I'd just take my debit card and credit card and use them just like I do here."
Mom: "You should get one of those wallets you can wear under your shirt! Going abroad is so dangerous!"
You: "I'm sure this trip will be fine. I'll be careful. Oh! And I saved the best news for last! You know how I've been job searching for the last year while I was finishing up grad school? I finally found a position that I love, with a great set of people, in a cool town! It's going to be wonderful! I'm so excited!"
Mom: "... so, it's not in [MY CITY]? Well, I guess I'm happy that you're happy."
You: Ok, mom. I have to go. I love you.
Mom: Will you call me next week? You don't call often enough.
You don't call more often, because the calls aren't just full of inconsequential chit-chat, they're actively hurting your feelings. When you share something good that your happy about, is your mom's first response to tell you all the things that could go wrong? All the ways she thinks it's dangerous? All the ways it somehow makes her sad that you're having fun? (She will never come out and say this one directly, but it's in every tone in her voice.)
I finally came to terms somewhat with my guilt about "not being a better daughter" several years ago when I realized that, while I love my mother dearly, admire her in many ways, and truly wish she could be happy, I don't actually like her. She puts down choices I make and am very happy with, she badgers, she manipulates, she guilt-trips. Several times when I was younger and shared something deeply personal, her first instinct was to criticize. She actually, when I was 34 years old and had used the word "shit" once in an argument with her, spent 24 hours after my apology stewing on it and proceeded to confront me over breakfast and tell me that I "was not ALLOWED to use those words. [She'd] broken [my] father of that habit and [she'd] break [me] too."
I consider not giving in to my mom's manipulation to be a self-preservation strategy. Nothing I could do would ever be enough, and so I live my life the way that makes me happy, and talk to her when I can actually look forward to it, and not dread it.
posted by MsMolly at 11:56 AM on March 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
You: "I went out with my friends last night and we had ice cream."
Mom: "You shouldn't eat ice cream, you know, it will lead to diabetes. Did I tell you about the cruise your dad and I went on? Everyone was SO FAT. They just had no control when eating. You need to go get yourself tested for diabetes."
You: "... soooooo, I'm also planning a trip to London next month..."
Mom: "Oh!! Is your hotel in a safe neighborhood? Go to the bank and get traveller's checks."
You: "Well, really no one uses those anymore. In a big city like London I'd just take my debit card and credit card and use them just like I do here."
Mom: "You should get one of those wallets you can wear under your shirt! Going abroad is so dangerous!"
You: "I'm sure this trip will be fine. I'll be careful. Oh! And I saved the best news for last! You know how I've been job searching for the last year while I was finishing up grad school? I finally found a position that I love, with a great set of people, in a cool town! It's going to be wonderful! I'm so excited!"
Mom: "... so, it's not in [MY CITY]? Well, I guess I'm happy that you're happy."
You: Ok, mom. I have to go. I love you.
Mom: Will you call me next week? You don't call often enough.
You don't call more often, because the calls aren't just full of inconsequential chit-chat, they're actively hurting your feelings. When you share something good that your happy about, is your mom's first response to tell you all the things that could go wrong? All the ways she thinks it's dangerous? All the ways it somehow makes her sad that you're having fun? (She will never come out and say this one directly, but it's in every tone in her voice.)
I finally came to terms somewhat with my guilt about "not being a better daughter" several years ago when I realized that, while I love my mother dearly, admire her in many ways, and truly wish she could be happy, I don't actually like her. She puts down choices I make and am very happy with, she badgers, she manipulates, she guilt-trips. Several times when I was younger and shared something deeply personal, her first instinct was to criticize. She actually, when I was 34 years old and had used the word "shit" once in an argument with her, spent 24 hours after my apology stewing on it and proceeded to confront me over breakfast and tell me that I "was not ALLOWED to use those words. [She'd] broken [my] father of that habit and [she'd] break [me] too."
I consider not giving in to my mom's manipulation to be a self-preservation strategy. Nothing I could do would ever be enough, and so I live my life the way that makes me happy, and talk to her when I can actually look forward to it, and not dread it.
posted by MsMolly at 11:56 AM on March 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
to riff on the above, I am quite careful what I share with my own mother. I know exactly what to say that will cause all the judgemental words to fly out of her mouth, and I don't give her the opportunity.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:11 PM on March 11, 2011
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:11 PM on March 11, 2011
Three visits per year is not that much -- and this is a 1.5 hour flight, not a 12 hour flight. It's not clear how often you call apart from birthdays, but I don't think it's that much to ask for you to call and check in for 20 minutes every Sunday. Could you make it every two weeks?
Saying thank you and sending a birthday gift isn't the same as keeping in touch. Yes, a phone call every week or 10 days or two weeks would be reasonable. Stop worrying about being guilted into being a good daughter, as you put it, and just worry about being a good daughter.
Also, re: Facebook -- set up a family filter and don't let her see the stuff you don't want her to see. If you know about AskMe you should know how to do that.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:03 PM on March 11, 2011
Saying thank you and sending a birthday gift isn't the same as keeping in touch. Yes, a phone call every week or 10 days or two weeks would be reasonable. Stop worrying about being guilted into being a good daughter, as you put it, and just worry about being a good daughter.
Also, re: Facebook -- set up a family filter and don't let her see the stuff you don't want her to see. If you know about AskMe you should know how to do that.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:03 PM on March 11, 2011
Response by poster: Hey everyone, thanks so much for weighing in, so many great responses here and I appreciate all of them. I have marked some that really spoke to me.
I don't think I really want to just "suck it up" and be "more compassionate" and call my mother more often, or at least not until I set some boundaries that work for me. One of you mentioned that your mother has temper tantrums when you hurt her feelings, my mother does that too. This is probably something I should have mentioned in the initial post... When she loses her shit at you, it's horrible. And she doesn't apologise. I end up apologising to her for upsetting her, which just isn't cool when she doesn't also apologise for screaming at me inappropriately. (This happened over christmas and I'm still feeling scarred.)
Anyway, I want to talk to her about some things, and set some boundaries, and get clear on things, and THEN I think I will be able to be compassionate. I just don't want to be doing things out of guilt or fear of upsetting her and experiencing the wrath of her anger. I would not abide this behaviour from my husband or my friends or my siblings. So I don't want to abide it from my mother. She's not a monster, and definitely not BPD or NPD or anything like that, just a bit emotionally manipulative and not very good at managing her emotions - leading to the occasional but unacceptable angry rage. I have to assert myself and have an adult relationship with her, otherwise I will go on feeling angry and guilty and repelled...
So in conclusion... I think the reason I resent talking to her a lot of the time is that I do not feel that I can say "I don't feel like talking right now" because I'm scared of what will happen if I hurt her feelings. I'm scared of making her angry. But I have to make her angry in order to stand up for myself.
THanks for this conversation mefites!
posted by saturn~jupiter at 5:13 AM on March 12, 2011
I don't think I really want to just "suck it up" and be "more compassionate" and call my mother more often, or at least not until I set some boundaries that work for me. One of you mentioned that your mother has temper tantrums when you hurt her feelings, my mother does that too. This is probably something I should have mentioned in the initial post... When she loses her shit at you, it's horrible. And she doesn't apologise. I end up apologising to her for upsetting her, which just isn't cool when she doesn't also apologise for screaming at me inappropriately. (This happened over christmas and I'm still feeling scarred.)
Anyway, I want to talk to her about some things, and set some boundaries, and get clear on things, and THEN I think I will be able to be compassionate. I just don't want to be doing things out of guilt or fear of upsetting her and experiencing the wrath of her anger. I would not abide this behaviour from my husband or my friends or my siblings. So I don't want to abide it from my mother. She's not a monster, and definitely not BPD or NPD or anything like that, just a bit emotionally manipulative and not very good at managing her emotions - leading to the occasional but unacceptable angry rage. I have to assert myself and have an adult relationship with her, otherwise I will go on feeling angry and guilty and repelled...
So in conclusion... I think the reason I resent talking to her a lot of the time is that I do not feel that I can say "I don't feel like talking right now" because I'm scared of what will happen if I hurt her feelings. I'm scared of making her angry. But I have to make her angry in order to stand up for myself.
THanks for this conversation mefites!
posted by saturn~jupiter at 5:13 AM on March 12, 2011
Yeah, tantrums are a whole 'nother thing. I think you might find this book helpful.
posted by jon1270 at 5:22 AM on March 13, 2011
posted by jon1270 at 5:22 AM on March 13, 2011
Your follow-up adds a whole 'nother dimension to your original post. My advice for handling ragers is to let them know (preferably during a time when you are both calm) that you do not appreciate being yelled at, no matter what their reasons for yelling may be, and if they do it again, you will hang up on them. Then do it. This even works on moms ;)
posted by LuckySeven~ at 6:52 PM on March 15, 2011
posted by LuckySeven~ at 6:52 PM on March 15, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by moxiedoll at 9:26 PM on March 10, 2011