Would rather not have to deal with this
August 25, 2010 2:04 PM
Should I divulge to my boss my mentor/coworker’s complete lack of work ethic? (academic lab situation)
I work in an academic lab focused on biology research at the molecular level. My PI (boss) takes a relatively hands off approach to my particular project, which I work on with a coworker who has been in the lab for 10 years. He knows the particular project very well, as he founded it and figured out the protocols and got them to work on his own. I’ve been working here for ~6 months now.
I originally signed on to work in the lab largely because I got along with this guy well and his knowledge seemed like an asset. I thought that with his background and my fresh eyes, we could get a lot of good work done.
About a month ago, he stopped being as helpful to me. I also realized that he hadn’t been very motivated in the lab of late. When he essentially refused to help me with the next step in my project, I approached him about it. He got very angry at me for mentioning anything of the sort. I suggested we talk to the PI about this problem, as he became very heated and I felt he was not in a position to be reasoned with.
Thinking about it, I realized that this coworker was not very stable an individual and is very hard to work with. Also, thinking back, I realized that he had not done any work on our project the entire time that I have been here. At the meeting, I did not mention these things. Our boss told us that he would fire us both if we didn’t get along and if we didn’t get producing data soon.
Everything was fine after that, and I hoped that this was enough to change things for the better. Nothing has changed, however, and I continue to be the only one working on experiments for this project. It’s kind annoying to me, but due to my previous revelations, I do not plan on bringing this up again.
(For those unfamiliar with the academic workplace, it is a strange place where people can get away with doing little work for a long time before it catches up to them. There is little oversight, as scientists are often expected to work individually)
Current situation: For personal reasons, I plan to leave my PhD program with a master’s degree and get the hell out of the ivory tower (its been a long time coming).
My PI has been helpful to me, and I feel perhaps I owe it to him to reveal my honest assessment of my coworker. That he has not done any real work since I’ve been here, probably because he has been going through some personal issues of his own. But also perhaps tell him what I suspect someone already has: though he may have science skills, he is very hard to work with and emotionally unstable.
However, I also do not want to ruin this man’s life. He depends on this position to support his family and to maintain a visa status to stay in the United States. He’s going through some issues in his own life, I know: the recent birth of his 2nd child, his wife trying to go back to school, applying for a green card, and he seems depressed. But part of me thinks: damn, shouldn’t he know better than to live his life like this? But also, research is something you can’t do casually. You have to throw your heart into it. And for whatever reason, he's just not capable right now. And honestly, despite his faults, I do like the guy.
I don’t plan to voluntarily reveal this situation to my boss. Should I?
But more importantly: What if he asks me what’s up with my coworker? How obligated am I to tell the truth? This very well could happen to when I reveal to my boss my plans to leave the university. I don’t know how to lie when asked a point blank question. I could stretch the truth, I suppose, to slow my coworkers eventual self-destruction, but should I? Do I owe it to my boss to tell the truth? Or should I minimize the guilt I’ll feel and try not to say anything?
I work in an academic lab focused on biology research at the molecular level. My PI (boss) takes a relatively hands off approach to my particular project, which I work on with a coworker who has been in the lab for 10 years. He knows the particular project very well, as he founded it and figured out the protocols and got them to work on his own. I’ve been working here for ~6 months now.
I originally signed on to work in the lab largely because I got along with this guy well and his knowledge seemed like an asset. I thought that with his background and my fresh eyes, we could get a lot of good work done.
About a month ago, he stopped being as helpful to me. I also realized that he hadn’t been very motivated in the lab of late. When he essentially refused to help me with the next step in my project, I approached him about it. He got very angry at me for mentioning anything of the sort. I suggested we talk to the PI about this problem, as he became very heated and I felt he was not in a position to be reasoned with.
Thinking about it, I realized that this coworker was not very stable an individual and is very hard to work with. Also, thinking back, I realized that he had not done any work on our project the entire time that I have been here. At the meeting, I did not mention these things. Our boss told us that he would fire us both if we didn’t get along and if we didn’t get producing data soon.
Everything was fine after that, and I hoped that this was enough to change things for the better. Nothing has changed, however, and I continue to be the only one working on experiments for this project. It’s kind annoying to me, but due to my previous revelations, I do not plan on bringing this up again.
(For those unfamiliar with the academic workplace, it is a strange place where people can get away with doing little work for a long time before it catches up to them. There is little oversight, as scientists are often expected to work individually)
Current situation: For personal reasons, I plan to leave my PhD program with a master’s degree and get the hell out of the ivory tower (its been a long time coming).
My PI has been helpful to me, and I feel perhaps I owe it to him to reveal my honest assessment of my coworker. That he has not done any real work since I’ve been here, probably because he has been going through some personal issues of his own. But also perhaps tell him what I suspect someone already has: though he may have science skills, he is very hard to work with and emotionally unstable.
However, I also do not want to ruin this man’s life. He depends on this position to support his family and to maintain a visa status to stay in the United States. He’s going through some issues in his own life, I know: the recent birth of his 2nd child, his wife trying to go back to school, applying for a green card, and he seems depressed. But part of me thinks: damn, shouldn’t he know better than to live his life like this? But also, research is something you can’t do casually. You have to throw your heart into it. And for whatever reason, he's just not capable right now. And honestly, despite his faults, I do like the guy.
I don’t plan to voluntarily reveal this situation to my boss. Should I?
But more importantly: What if he asks me what’s up with my coworker? How obligated am I to tell the truth? This very well could happen to when I reveal to my boss my plans to leave the university. I don’t know how to lie when asked a point blank question. I could stretch the truth, I suppose, to slow my coworkers eventual self-destruction, but should I? Do I owe it to my boss to tell the truth? Or should I minimize the guilt I’ll feel and try not to say anything?
What difference to you is it if he's in the lab and surreptitiously doing nothing on the project, versus fired and obviously doing nothing on the project?
If your question is any indication, it doesn't matter as far as you're concerned. If your boss were terribly concerned about wasting his grant money on this guy's salary, he'd have picked up on it by now. You might not have picked up on this yet, but in the academic world, grant money is not real money. It becomes real money by giving it to your students and staff in the form of stipend and salary.
Leave it alone.
posted by supercres at 2:22 PM on August 25, 2010
If your question is any indication, it doesn't matter as far as you're concerned. If your boss were terribly concerned about wasting his grant money on this guy's salary, he'd have picked up on it by now. You might not have picked up on this yet, but in the academic world, grant money is not real money. It becomes real money by giving it to your students and staff in the form of stipend and salary.
Leave it alone.
posted by supercres at 2:22 PM on August 25, 2010
I also do not want to ruin this man’s life
Unless there are things you aren't telling us here, you would not be ruining this man's life. If his life is "ruined" by exposure of his incompetence, the blame lies with him, not with you.
To whom is your primary obligation (besides yourself, of course)? Is it to your boss, who hired you and whose research program you have been pursuing? Or is it to the difficult-to-get-along-with-and-lazy-besides coworker whose only redeeming quality, from what you've written, is that you like him despite everything?
Once you leave, if he continues his current pattern of not putting forth any effort, his problems will become apparent rather quickly when no data is produced. So you can probably still look at yourself in the mirror without volunteering any criticism of your coworker.
But seriously, if your boss conducts some sort of an exit interview with you, lying and covering up for this guy is a really bad idea. Could you live with yourself if you said nothing, even when asked, and his emotional instability resulted in someone getting hurt?
posted by DrGail at 2:22 PM on August 25, 2010
Unless there are things you aren't telling us here, you would not be ruining this man's life. If his life is "ruined" by exposure of his incompetence, the blame lies with him, not with you.
To whom is your primary obligation (besides yourself, of course)? Is it to your boss, who hired you and whose research program you have been pursuing? Or is it to the difficult-to-get-along-with-and-lazy-besides coworker whose only redeeming quality, from what you've written, is that you like him despite everything?
Once you leave, if he continues his current pattern of not putting forth any effort, his problems will become apparent rather quickly when no data is produced. So you can probably still look at yourself in the mirror without volunteering any criticism of your coworker.
But seriously, if your boss conducts some sort of an exit interview with you, lying and covering up for this guy is a really bad idea. Could you live with yourself if you said nothing, even when asked, and his emotional instability resulted in someone getting hurt?
posted by DrGail at 2:22 PM on August 25, 2010
However, I also do not want to ruin this man’s life. He depends on this position to support his family and to maintain a visa status to stay in the United States. He’s going through some issues in his own life, I know: the recent birth of his 2nd child, his wife trying to go back to school, applying for a green card, and he seems depressed. But part of me thinks: damn, shouldn’t he know better than to live his life like this? But also, research is something you can’t do casually. You have to throw your heart into it. And for whatever reason, he's just not capable right now.
You've just listed several, and for someone who has only been at this for a little while and is quitting, telling a guy who has been working for ten years, has just had a baby and has to fight with the INS in order to keep on working that he has to throw his heart into it is more than a little rich, yes?
also, it's not your job to decide whether your coworkers are working hard enough, that's the PI's job. maybe you should think a little harder about why someone who has been working ten years isn't working so hard on an experiment *he* designed? You might learn something about yourself and academia as an industry.
posted by ennui.bz at 2:26 PM on August 25, 2010
You've just listed several, and for someone who has only been at this for a little while and is quitting, telling a guy who has been working for ten years, has just had a baby and has to fight with the INS in order to keep on working that he has to throw his heart into it is more than a little rich, yes?
also, it's not your job to decide whether your coworkers are working hard enough, that's the PI's job. maybe you should think a little harder about why someone who has been working ten years isn't working so hard on an experiment *he* designed? You might learn something about yourself and academia as an industry.
posted by ennui.bz at 2:26 PM on August 25, 2010
Oh, and plead ignorance if your boss asks about your "mentor". You've been working there for six months, and your boss has known him for ten years. I highly doubt you know anything that your PI doesn't.
Don't say anything about his character, and answer everything else as matter-of-factly as possible. Haven't seen data from him? Say, "I haven't seen those data yet." He didn't help you with the next stage of experiments? "He felt it would be better if I took the initiative there." Don't infer; don't draw conclusions.
posted by supercres at 2:28 PM on August 25, 2010
Don't say anything about his character, and answer everything else as matter-of-factly as possible. Haven't seen data from him? Say, "I haven't seen those data yet." He didn't help you with the next stage of experiments? "He felt it would be better if I took the initiative there." Don't infer; don't draw conclusions.
posted by supercres at 2:28 PM on August 25, 2010
He's worked there for 10 years. You've been there 6 months. You don't 'owe' the PI unsolicited reports about your co-workers behavior and you don't have to lie when asked a question. Just tell the truth: you get the impression that things aren't going as well for him as they could, but you hope that they will get better. Leave it at that.
To be frank, the way you describe the situation (he stops helping you, so you can't move forward with your project, you confront him, he doesn't react how you want) suggests to me that whether you're aware of it or not, you're considering this because you'd like to 'put him in his place,' or 'give him what he deserves,' or get some kind of revenge for your interactions with him. Your expressions of wanting to help your PI in return by telling your boss what you've observed sound like the way you're justifying that to yourself. I don't think there's anything altruistic about what you're considering. It's not helpful for anyone involved. If you have a problem with your co-worker, tell him exactly how you feel and leave it at that. You're not his boss or his parent - and it's way out of bounds to go tattling on someone for their work habits when you've only seen 6 months of their decade long career.
posted by jardinier at 2:29 PM on August 25, 2010
To be frank, the way you describe the situation (he stops helping you, so you can't move forward with your project, you confront him, he doesn't react how you want) suggests to me that whether you're aware of it or not, you're considering this because you'd like to 'put him in his place,' or 'give him what he deserves,' or get some kind of revenge for your interactions with him. Your expressions of wanting to help your PI in return by telling your boss what you've observed sound like the way you're justifying that to yourself. I don't think there's anything altruistic about what you're considering. It's not helpful for anyone involved. If you have a problem with your co-worker, tell him exactly how you feel and leave it at that. You're not his boss or his parent - and it's way out of bounds to go tattling on someone for their work habits when you've only seen 6 months of their decade long career.
posted by jardinier at 2:29 PM on August 25, 2010
Telling the truth can't steer you wrong no matter the consequences. But you don't need advertise the truth to people that don't want to hear it.
Leave it alone unless directly asked about it.
posted by WhiteWhale at 2:37 PM on August 25, 2010
Leave it alone unless directly asked about it.
posted by WhiteWhale at 2:37 PM on August 25, 2010
I love metafilter.
I suppose you are right, that I would like to put him in his place. I'd really just like to confront him and straighten him out. Ask him: why are you doing this? Of course, as you might be able to tell from my question, I already think I know. I don't like to see smart people self destruct, its depressing.
But I suppose I've found my answer, already, actually. I will not reveal anything to my boss. It's not my place, even though I am full of myself (as are many people in academia). Let things play their course, as they will. Unless my boss pushes me very hard (which I doubt seriously he will), I will keep all of this to myself.
posted by Candide at 2:40 PM on August 25, 2010
I suppose you are right, that I would like to put him in his place. I'd really just like to confront him and straighten him out. Ask him: why are you doing this? Of course, as you might be able to tell from my question, I already think I know. I don't like to see smart people self destruct, its depressing.
But I suppose I've found my answer, already, actually. I will not reveal anything to my boss. It's not my place, even though I am full of myself (as are many people in academia). Let things play their course, as they will. Unless my boss pushes me very hard (which I doubt seriously he will), I will keep all of this to myself.
posted by Candide at 2:40 PM on August 25, 2010
Boss: What's up with So-and-So?
You: Why do you ask?
Boss: He seems blah blah blah.
You: That's something you should talk to him about.
posted by vitabellosi at 2:51 PM on August 25, 2010
You: Why do you ask?
Boss: He seems blah blah blah.
You: That's something you should talk to him about.
posted by vitabellosi at 2:51 PM on August 25, 2010
If your boss asks you, tell him the truth, but stick to the facts. Don't get into he-said-she-said, and definitely don't speculate on the guy's psychology or the reasons for the problems. Just the facts. Trust your boss take it from there.
If your boss doesn't ask you, say nothing for the reasons hal_c_on gives.
posted by caek at 3:06 PM on August 25, 2010
If your boss doesn't ask you, say nothing for the reasons hal_c_on gives.
posted by caek at 3:06 PM on August 25, 2010
If asked, just say that you have had some personal differences and work a lot independently - that covers your future ass and doesn't doom anyone or cause any strife. If asked about the personal differences then mutter something about preferring different work styles, like that you like to keep detailed records and write things up right away, and he prefers to think about things first - not wrong, just different.
If not asked, say nothing.
posted by meepmeow at 4:31 PM on August 25, 2010
If not asked, say nothing.
posted by meepmeow at 4:31 PM on August 25, 2010
Our boss told us that he would fire us both if we didn’t get along and if we didn’t get producing data soon.
Sounds like your boss is pretty hands-off, and is not interested in his subordinates running to him regarding personality clashes. Stands to reason that he didn't want to hear about conflicts between you and your coworker then, and probably doesn't care to hear about them now.
posted by mingodingo at 4:45 PM on August 25, 2010
Sounds like your boss is pretty hands-off, and is not interested in his subordinates running to him regarding personality clashes. Stands to reason that he didn't want to hear about conflicts between you and your coworker then, and probably doesn't care to hear about them now.
posted by mingodingo at 4:45 PM on August 25, 2010
Seems to me he's ruining his own life without any help. But if your PI asks you, I think you need to be honest. Your co-worker isn't advancing any research, he's marking time.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:10 PM on August 25, 2010
posted by Ideefixe at 5:10 PM on August 25, 2010
I suspect the PI is fully aware of the lack of productivity of your co-worker. I would leave it to the PI to sort this out by himself.
posted by SueDenim at 7:01 PM on August 25, 2010
posted by SueDenim at 7:01 PM on August 25, 2010
What about offering a little sympathy to your co-worker on your way out? this person may be struggling with depression, it might be a nice gesture for you to write him a card saying that though you've had conflict working together, you still like him as a person, and you're concerned that he may be dealing with things in his personal life that are affecting his work. If there are any counseling programs available through the school, you could point him to them. It would have to be a carefully and kindly worded letter, because you don't want it to come off as a snarky "get help". Take your negatinve angry feelings, and turn them around by trying to do something positive.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 8:47 PM on August 25, 2010
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 8:47 PM on August 25, 2010
I just wanted to mention something that seems to be getting lost in the shuffle here. If this person has helped you at all on the project that he founded, designed and tested, then he HAS been working on it. Every second he spent training you on his project counts as putting energy towards things going forward.
It's totally understandable that his behavior feels unfair to you. However, though academia feels like a sprint, it really is a marathon. In the context of 10 years, 6 months is nothing, particularly if the rest of his life is currently as hard as you suggest it might be. He may not understand why you're frustrated with him, when your time and expertise contributing to this research has been a drop in the bucket compared to his investment in it.
Lots of people in biology have a 6 month or even 1-2 year slump and then recover. It's just hard to relate to when you haven't lived through it.
posted by synapse at 10:31 PM on August 25, 2010
It's totally understandable that his behavior feels unfair to you. However, though academia feels like a sprint, it really is a marathon. In the context of 10 years, 6 months is nothing, particularly if the rest of his life is currently as hard as you suggest it might be. He may not understand why you're frustrated with him, when your time and expertise contributing to this research has been a drop in the bucket compared to his investment in it.
Lots of people in biology have a 6 month or even 1-2 year slump and then recover. It's just hard to relate to when you haven't lived through it.
posted by synapse at 10:31 PM on August 25, 2010
Our boss told us that he would fire us both if we didn’t get along and if we didn’t get producing data soon.
In my experience, it's not that easy to fire someone in a PhD program - are you in the US? are you paying your own way?
I would go to a university ombudsperson and talk about the stress you're under - it's not fair that you have to produce the work of 2 people, and it's directly contributing to you leaving the program. Universities tend to be very protective of their PhD students because they have put a lot of money into them, and they might be able to come up with a solution that works for everyone.
posted by fermezporte at 4:26 AM on August 26, 2010
In my experience, it's not that easy to fire someone in a PhD program - are you in the US? are you paying your own way?
I would go to a university ombudsperson and talk about the stress you're under - it's not fair that you have to produce the work of 2 people, and it's directly contributing to you leaving the program. Universities tend to be very protective of their PhD students because they have put a lot of money into them, and they might be able to come up with a solution that works for everyone.
posted by fermezporte at 4:26 AM on August 26, 2010
I spent six years in an academic lab getting my PhD. As a grad student, I worked with slackers, with postdocs who supposedly knew more than I did but seemed completely ignorant, postdocs that were so competent it was inspiring...
...and I think it is highly presumptuous of you to make assumptions as to the level of work your co-worker is or isn't doing. As a grad student barely finishing up two years of a masters, it was probably your co-worker's (is he a lab tech or a post-doc??) position to train you to take the project over, and it is entirely possible that the same self-admitted I-am-full-of-myself attitude turned him off to helping you with the project that he started from scratch.
I'm saying this because I am a post-doc, and spent the past year trying to mentor a first-year grad student who acted like she knew more than I did about the project that I had started. I basically gave up trying to help her because it was a waste of time and energy on my part to deal with her. However, I did speak to my PI about the situation, and we both agreed that it would be better for me to let her figure things out on her own (if she needed help she could go to the PI) as I had other projects to work on.
Given that your co-worker (I hope that, if he has a PhD, and is a post-doc, you will give him the respect he deserves by referring to him with his correct designation) has ten years on your in this lab, and that you are six months (your arrogance is really laughable) I strongly suspect that he may have already talked to your PI as well. If he has been around for ten years, and has been loyal to your PI, bad-mouthing him is only going to make you look bad. Do yourself a favor, and bow out gracefully with gratitude for learning what you have in this lab. And learn some humility if you can, and stand out in a sea of academics who are full of themselves.
posted by Everydayville at 10:17 AM on August 28, 2010
...and I think it is highly presumptuous of you to make assumptions as to the level of work your co-worker is or isn't doing. As a grad student barely finishing up two years of a masters, it was probably your co-worker's (is he a lab tech or a post-doc??) position to train you to take the project over, and it is entirely possible that the same self-admitted I-am-full-of-myself attitude turned him off to helping you with the project that he started from scratch.
I'm saying this because I am a post-doc, and spent the past year trying to mentor a first-year grad student who acted like she knew more than I did about the project that I had started. I basically gave up trying to help her because it was a waste of time and energy on my part to deal with her. However, I did speak to my PI about the situation, and we both agreed that it would be better for me to let her figure things out on her own (if she needed help she could go to the PI) as I had other projects to work on.
Given that your co-worker (I hope that, if he has a PhD, and is a post-doc, you will give him the respect he deserves by referring to him with his correct designation) has ten years on your in this lab, and that you are six months (your arrogance is really laughable) I strongly suspect that he may have already talked to your PI as well. If he has been around for ten years, and has been loyal to your PI, bad-mouthing him is only going to make you look bad. Do yourself a favor, and bow out gracefully with gratitude for learning what you have in this lab. And learn some humility if you can, and stand out in a sea of academics who are full of themselves.
posted by Everydayville at 10:17 AM on August 28, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
You mentioned not wanting to ruin the guy's life, and I think that's key. He's in a fragile position that makes your "honesty" into more of a weapon. He has a fragile immigration status, a fragile little family...and a fragile mind.
It's clear he has mental health issues. For all we know, he wakes up every morning and hopes this'll be the day when things start to come together for him. A lot of people with mental health problems are just a big ball of fears, walking.
I wouldn't look at it as an issue of being honest. I would look at it as an issue of being charitable. Your boss has responsibility for his hirelings; if he doesn't know them well enough, that's his fault. You have a responsibility to yourself to sever ties cleanly and move on with your life with minimal guilt.
Don't stretch the truth. Don't do anything that makes you feel like you're setting somebody up for disappointment.
I can see where this would be really troubling for you, but I believe you should err on the side of charity.
posted by circular at 2:14 PM on August 25, 2010