Am I being taken for a ride?

July 1, 2010 10:21 AM

Does a tiny kink in the frame condemn a bike to the scrap heap? If so, what are my options for a city bike in the sub-$500 range? Time is of the essence!

I don't know much about bikes except I like riding them every now and then. I'd like you bike-savvy types to let me know if the situation below seems like A. I'm being sold a bill of goods and B. If so, is that such a bad thing?

I've got a Schwinn Sprint, about 20 years old, that I bought second hand a few years ago at Recycle-a-Bicycle in the LES. It's a little clunky, and since it's a steel frame it's heavy, which obviously sucks for taking up into the apartment, etc. But it's worked fine for me for getting around NYC and going on the occasional longer ride in the sticks. It's been a year since I've biked and since my tires were flat I thought I'd take it in to Bike Habitat in soho, right near my office. Planning on getting a tuneup ($60) and making sure everything's good to go for a trip this afternoon that'll require a bicycle.

Problem is, when I brought it in, the repair guy said he wouldn't work on it, since the frame is kinked, and, he said, would eventually, inevitably buckle. He's right, there is a slight, slight kink in the horizontal tube that connects the seat to the handlebars. We're talking millimeters. You can feel it if you run your fingers over it, and if you look for it, you can see it, but only just. I'd never noticed it; it might have been there since I bought it. As you gather, I don't ride too much (though I'm looking to change that).

Now, repair guy says he's "legally" prohibited from working on a bike that's this dangerous for the rider, which I'm assuming is not true (but feel free to link me to the law that says otherwise), and that "no reputable bike shop" would work on this thing, since it's just a matter of time before it finally buckles, which obviously is dangerous. He also said a bike should last between 8-30 years, and that mine was over 20 so it's not so crazy to get a new one. Seems reasonable.

Then, inevitably, it is suggested that I buy a new bike from their store (Googling reveals their customers often give less than glowing reviews, and I know soho isn't going to have the cheapest anything, but like I said, I need a working bike today. The salesmen suggest a Trek 7.1 FX, which is at the low end of the cost spectrum, at $400, $435 with tax -- the same or cheaper than it is online. I took it for a test drive in the neighborhood, and sure enough, it felt great -- lighter than my old one, smooth shifting (as opposed to the clunky feeling on the ole Schwinn -- sometimes I need to hold the shifter for a few seconds before it responds), great fit, etc.

I must have a bike by 4:30 this afternoon, since I'm leaving right from work to go on a trip over the weekend where I'll be doing light riding around a beach town for 3 days.

So several questions: Am I straight-up being swindled? The reviews of the place aren't great, and I don't like buying new things when I know there are plenty of used bike stores in the city. I could theoretically take Schwinn to another bike store in the area and see if they'd do the tuneup, but I'm running low on time.

Whether or not I'm being swindled, anyone have thoughts on the Trek itself? Assume I don't have or make a lot of money, but I've got enough savings that I could buy this thing and not be out on the street. For a new sub-$500 bike that'll be used for city riding, are there better options? Online reviews make it seem like a good novice bike for the casual rider, and in any case I'd like to have a bike I enjoy, especially now that it's summer. I'm thinking the new, lighter, smoother ride would make me more likely to bike around, anyway.

I know that they've got me just where they want me here, and even though I'm a trusting sort I'm not a total rube. I'm just wondering, given that the Schwinn is in need of new tire tubes, brake pads, and a tuneup, and it's long in the teeth AND it's got the (microscopic) kink in the tube, is it time to just get a newer one?

Any thoughts or comments welcome. Thanks, gang.

posted by andromache to Sports, Hobbies, & Recreation (31 answers total)

Maybe if the frame were carbon fiber, he'd have a point.

Buddy of mine had an aluminum frame with micro cracks, which is bad for aluminum. The bike still rode for three or four years till he got rid of it.
posted by notsnot at 10:24 AM on July 1, 2010

Trek is a fantastic bike company. I've been trying to find an older one for myself to supplement my old Schwinn.

That said, this sounds like a swindle. I've never heard of that before, a mechanic saying they won't work on the bike because of a ding.

THAT SAID - I'm in Chicago. The laws could be different by you. Good luck!
posted by bibliogrrl at 10:25 AM on July 1, 2010

Take it to another store
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:27 AM on July 1, 2010

Note: I know nothing about this, just what I found searching.

A kink can result in sudden failure at the least opportune time. However, this site may help you evaluate your options, which include frame repair.

The query I did was frame damage bicycle.
posted by zippy at 10:27 AM on July 1, 2010

I wouldn't worry about an invisible kink if $60 will tune it all up otherwise.
posted by Obscure Reference at 10:28 AM on July 1, 2010

Piping in again - I would worry if you were doing hard riding, but for tooling around a beach? Find a different shop, and then shop around for a new bike when you have time.
posted by bibliogrrl at 10:33 AM on July 1, 2010

You aren't being swindled. Maybe he was exaggerating about being legally prohibited, but the gist is correct. With a frame with a bend is a spot as critical as the top tube, a tuneup is not what you need. I imagine he was trying to strongarm you into getting a new bike, but from what it sounds like, it's for your own good. That is, it sounds like, "You really shouldn't be riding that, and I'm not going to enable it" versus "Oh, this new one will be much better, but if you insist, I'll tune it up for you".

Naturally, he has a stake in it, but he could've been much shadier, and there are worse tactics to get you to buy a new bike, and to buy it from him instead of a competitor.

I wouldn't shop around trying to get repairs on your current bike. You probably don't want to do business with a shop that would fix it.

The Trek looks like a solid ride, and the key points are that it feels good and it fits you. How often do you bike and how long are your rides? How fast do you go, and how hilly is the terrain? I know you said you want to keep it under $500, but a lot more opens up just above that price range.
posted by supercres at 10:35 AM on July 1, 2010

With your current frame, it's not about normal riding. If it's going to fail, it's going to fail when abnormal stress it put on it, like during a hard stop or crash. Sure, you don't plan on any of those things happening, but they do.
posted by supercres at 10:37 AM on July 1, 2010

bibliogrrl's advice is pretty much spot on.
posted by johnnybeggs at 10:37 AM on July 1, 2010

I work in a bike shop. There's a saying in the bike industry: "steel is real".

Steel is the most durable, fatigue-resistant and versatile material. It's gone out of fashion because its weight is counter to the trend of ultra-light bikes, but there's no question that steel bikes are great rides.

The great thing about steel is its predictable failure modes. It'll gradually break, rather than suddenly and catastrophically like carbon or aluminum. A kink in a steel frame is no big deal -- it can be bent back into shape by a skilled frame-builder, or the damaged section can be cut out and a replacement can be welded in. Steel is incredibly easy to work with.

Take your bike to another shop that won't bullshit you, and ride your bike. You'll be fine.
posted by randomstriker at 10:38 AM on July 1, 2010

I got a Jamis Coda recently, for that price, and it is totally awesome.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:38 AM on July 1, 2010

Er, I mean bibliogrrl's second piece of advice is spot on. I don't think you're being swindled either.
posted by johnnybeggs at 10:39 AM on July 1, 2010

By the way, the one thing I would avoid until your steel bike is fixed (and it CAN be fixed) is riding your bike at high speed, e.g. coasting down a hill. Kinks in the frame can introduce changes to the frame geometry, i.e. alignment between the front and rear wheels, steering angles, etc. At high speeds, this could result in the sudden onset of an unrecoverable shimmy/wobble that would lead to a crash.
posted by randomstriker at 10:45 AM on July 1, 2010

My husband, who is a huge bike nerd, says that shop is decent, but you can bring it to NYC Velo (on 2nd Ave between 3rd and 4th Streets) if you want a second opinion. That said, he said that on a frame that old, an actual kink could mean you'd need a new frame, and at that point you might as well buy a new bike.

If you want some help with bike shopping today, MeMail me and I'll put you in touch with my husband, who can help you figure it all out.
posted by bedhead at 10:48 AM on July 1, 2010

For bike shopping, husband also suggested Bikes by George, which sells used bikes. They're on 413 E. 12th, between 1st and Avenue A.
posted by bedhead at 10:53 AM on July 1, 2010

Hey, thanks all for the replies.

How often do you bike and how long are your rides? How fast do you go, and how hilly is the terrain?

I bike infrequently, but I have in the past been a regular rider, like biking to work and all that, and if I either had the old one back to fighting weight or a new shiny one, I think I'd get back into riding regularly. That said, it's New York and I have (and love) my metrocard. I'm probably not the guy who'll be biking to parties all the time. But like, once or twice a week and the occasional longer trip, biking to a campsite, etc.

I live at 115th Street on the West Side of Manhattan, which is a bit hilly, but really, most of the place I've hung out in New York aren't too bad. For day to day riding, probably a decent amount of riding on the greenway on the West Side, which is quite tame.

Is this when someone recommends I get a single speed bike? (I'm open to whatever, but I'd rather we not do the whole 'fixies are for hipster assholes/many-geared bikes are for lazy n00bs' thing).

Again, thanks. These thoughts are all useful. I like bibliogirls suggestion, and if I can get a place to tune me up, I might do that for the short term, and then shop in less harried way when I get back. Also, thanks randomstriker for the expert opinion about steel. That was the sense I got; good to hear it from someone in your postion.

Keep the opinions and suggestions coming, I'm still reading.
posted by andromache at 10:54 AM on July 1, 2010

If you do decide to ditch your bike, I think the Trek FX bikes are very nice and are a great choice for casual town riding/commuting. I might get one when I eventually get rid of my very old steel mountain bike. It's worth the money if you were looking for a new bike for easy city riding, period. The price is reasonable. Bike shops typically give you a price lower than the MRSP on the manufacturer's website. $400 is not bad, though you could possibly get it for lower.

You need a bike by this afternoon, 4:30? If you try to get your old bike tuned-up, I'm not sure if you can convince a store to put your bike at the top of their priority list! A tuneup takes a while. But if you only need brake pads and tubes changed, that might be fine if they're nice and not tied up.

Tubes and brake pads are like oil for cars... those expenses are recurring and minor, especially if you learn to do it yourself (but do it right!). It doesn't really matter in the long run whether you have an old bike or new one. Your tuneup may cost up to $80 with those items thrown in, that's all.
posted by bread-eater at 11:00 AM on July 1, 2010

I call bullshit. Was the bike in a front end collision? Front end collision usually causes the head tube (the part where the forks go, where the badge is) to get forced backwards and as a result the down tube buckles. What you have is a dent, the kind that commonly get filled with spot putty and painted over. Agree with randomstriker here. It's steel, and as it doesn't have a super duper high end tube set, the walls of the tubing are relatively thick. It will not spontaneously fail. Is the kink serious enough that the paint is cracked? Can you post a picture?
posted by fixedgear at 11:01 AM on July 1, 2010

I would not think twice about continuing to ride around a steel framed bike with a slight kink in it.* Sure, keep an eye on it (by which I mean glance at it every few months to make sure nothing is going on), but it really isn't something to worry about.

He also said a bike should last between 8-30 years, and that mine was over 20 so it's not so crazy to get a new one. Seems reasonable.

Sure, everything eventually wears out. However, steel bike frames don't have any kind of set shelf life and unless there is some serious detectable problem with the frame, there is no reason to replace it. To suggest that a bike frame is no good after a particular number of years is a bit silly. The frame can rust or it can be damaged, but it won't expire like milk.

If this is really a matter of millimetres, I also would not worry about alignment. Even brand new frames won't be in perfect alignment.

* I ride an aluminum framed bike with a nice ding on the down tube that has been just fine for thousands of kilometres.
posted by ssg at 11:10 AM on July 1, 2010

He also said a bike should last between 8-30 years, and that mine was over 20 so it's not so crazy to get a new one.

I don't read this so much as the frame but the bike in general and the technology. Even on an occasionally ridden town type bike things are going to wear out (like hubs for example) that are going to be harder and harder to repair as the years pass due to availability of parts. I'm trying to repair a 20 year old set of relatively high end hubs right now and I'm going to probably give up becuase I can't find bearing cups.

Also I don't necessarily think you are being swindled by the shop with respect to the working on it issue. Let's say someone brings in a damaged bike (small crack/kink) and they do a tune-up. Two days later you crash (for whatever reason) and the frame breaks at that location. Someone could very easily point back to the shop tacitly approving the bike being okay to ride by tuningit up and sending you an your way. Maybe they are just trying to CYA.

With that said bibliogrrl has the best advice IMO:

Piping in again - I would worry if you were doing hard riding, but for tooling around a beach? Find a different shop, and then shop around for a new bike when you have time.
posted by Big_B at 11:35 AM on July 1, 2010

I'd third what randomstriker said. Steel doesn't behave like more modern frame materials; it's thick, heavy and reliable The kind of impact you'd need to completely buckle a steel tube, even with a tiny kink or dent, would be pretty big - the kind of impact where a buckled tube is going to be the least of your worries.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 12:03 PM on July 1, 2010

Just anecdotal, as a former bike mechanic:
The mech you spoke to might have been exaggerating the legal ramifications, but on some level most shops have a policy not only obligating them to inform you about an unsafe component or frame, but preventing them from working on that bike further. Yours probably wasn't structurally compromising, but caution decides.
posted by a halcyon day at 12:23 PM on July 1, 2010

I have had a bike shop straighten out a bend in a frame, with some reluctance and plenty of warnings. (It turned out to be not such a great bike for me anyway, but mostly because it was too small.) If you're going to ride it around, you might measure the degree of bend (say, by stretching a thread along the top of the tube and measuring how many millimeters out of true it is, then re-measuring every week or two) just to be sure that it's not getting worse.

That having been said, $435 for a new Trek is not at all bad, especially for NYC (the MSRP is $440), and Trek makes good bikes.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:26 PM on July 1, 2010

If it's going to fail, it's going to fail when abnormal stress it put on it, like during a hard stop or crash.

Sure, but that doesn't make the frame dangerous. If it the frame fails in a crash, then it has functioned just like a modern car (crumpling to absorb crash forces) and you are no worse off. A slight kink in the frame is very unlikely to cause failure during a hard stop (there are other parts that are more likely to fail first), but even then, steel's failure mode is such that the frame is going to buckle and bend slowly, not just fall apart underneath the rider.
posted by ssg at 12:59 PM on July 1, 2010

If you're in a rush, I do recommend the single-speed trick. This was recommended to me on ask.me way back when, and I completely fell in love with it. (I may be a hipster.) I bought a $60 bike and put maybe $50 worth of repairs in and haven't had to work on it since, which I think is the best. You can DIY or do it cheaply at the bike shop in about an hour.

If you just need another bike shop, Frank's on Grand Street is great for no-bullshit cheap repairs.
posted by zvs at 1:12 PM on July 1, 2010

I got a Jamis Coda recently, for that price, and it is totally awesome.

Seconded on the recently purchased, the price, and the awesome.
posted by Kwine at 1:46 PM on July 1, 2010

I did a major accident where I essentially ran a bike into a curb, buckling the downtube and strething the top tube. The fork was bent far enough that the wheel crashed into the frame when steering.

Longterm, a steel bike with frame damage like that is toast. It's been weakened and may buckle, etc. Short term, I bent the fork back to straight and rode it another six months and it was fine.

Old steel bikes take a lot before they are done for. I've had a Schwinn Sprint pass through my hands and it had pretty heavy construction. If I were you I'd ride it until you found the perfect match for what you want.
posted by Doohickie at 2:31 PM on July 1, 2010

Is this when someone recommends I get a single speed bike? (I'm open to whatever, but I'd rather we not do the whole 'fixies are for hipster assholes/many-geared bikes are for lazy n00bs' thing).

Ummmm... I have several bikes. For Christmas my wife got me a 2009 Schwinn Sprint single speed. It is a lot of fun to ride, far more fun, in fact, than such a simple bike has a right to be. For 2010 the Sprint comes with a flip-flop hub so if you want to ride like a normal person you can put the rear wheel on to use the freewheel. If you want to try that whole hipster thing you can flip the hub over and it has a fixed cog.

If you're in reasonably flat areas, you might consider trying a single speed or fixed gear bike, just for the fun of it. You don't have to be a poseur.
posted by Doohickie at 2:38 PM on July 1, 2010

DANG IT. You said Sprint. MY Schwinn is a Cutter.

(I'm such a dolt.)

Schwinn makes a Sprint nowadays, but it's their top-end track bike that costs $1000. The cutter is less than $400.
posted by Doohickie at 2:44 PM on July 1, 2010

Recycle-A-Bicycle has a location in the East Village, on Ave C between 5th and 6th. I’ve had good luck taking my bike into the DUMBO location for last minute repairs – maybe they can help. They have experience with older bikes (yours in particular!) and won’t likely be fazed by the ding.
posted by SirNovember at 7:55 AM on July 2, 2010

Follow-up: I got the Trek. Not enough time to get the Schwinn repaired at that point, and, as I imagined, the new one is way nicer to ride.

That said, the old one is still locked up outside my building in SoHo. Given that the consensus here seems to be that the microscopic frame bend (I just looked again, we're talking one millimeter off true) isn't a catastrophic injury, what should I do with it? Thinking about hawking it on Craigslist for $75 or whatever someone will pay, but if any of my advisors here are interested, I'd be willing to consider a special MeFi discount of 100% off. MeMail me if you want to meet up after work and grab it -- it's got a flat but otherwise should be rideable.

Thanks for the help, all.
posted by andromache at 12:16 PM on July 6, 2010