How to handle dating a mediocre writer?

March 16, 2010 11:34 AM

I'm dating a guy who considers himself a writer, but he isn't very good. He often shares pieces that he's written with me. Do I offer constructive feedback or just smile and nod and say "I enjoyed that. Great!"

I write professionally. Have a published book under my belt and blog in several paying gigs online. I also tend to be opinionated. And friends have said I'm ultra-picky about the different subjects that interest me. I also consider myself to have that illusive quality called 'taste.'

My intuition says to read what he shares and claim to have enjoyed it, and then if he pushes me for more detailed feedback offer a truthful appraisal. I want to encourage him, but at the same time I can remember my early days, and how I benefited and matured with the constructive feedback from peers and the editors I worked with.

But then, conversely, none of those individuals were boyfriends.

posted by zenpop to Human Relations (43 answers total)

You mean to say "elusive", not illusive.

and I would say offer constructive criticism couched in positive phrases. This is a typical technique for giving feedback. Example: "This is a really great piece overall. But I think if you worked on making this section more specific (or whatever), it would make it a lot more powerful. (add additional constructive feedback here stressing how it will improve the piece). Nice job!"
posted by treehorn+bunny at 11:37 AM on March 16, 2010

I dated a guy who wrote a book (self-published I found out much later). I eagerly asked if I could read it. I read the first page and realized it was really and truly awful. If I read it, I would have to come up with something to say about it. So I told him I had a tonne of reading for grad school and just didn't have time to read it and that I'm just not that in to science fiction. I kept acting like I was meaning to read it at some point until it feel off the radar.

If his identity is tied up in being a good writer, it will crush him to think that his girlfriend doesn't agree with his appraisal. Let him find out somewhere else and if you can, come up with an excuse not read this stuff.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:38 AM on March 16, 2010

Ooh, boy, that's a tricky one! I think your instinct in a good one. But it would depend a LOT on how he is presenting his work to you. Is he saying "well, I finished my latest story, do you want to take a look at it?" or is he saying "I would really like it if you would read through my latest work..."? The former would say to me that he wants you to read it as a girlfriend and give him support; the latter implies to me that he wants more of a professional opinion.

But not knowing the specific nuances, I would say follow your instinct because the chances of hurt feelings are high due to the emotional involvement.
posted by Eicats at 11:39 AM on March 16, 2010

Oops...my apologies for being hetero-normative. Regardless, I think my advice stands.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:40 AM on March 16, 2010

You don't respect him and you will never respect him, because you feel vastly superior to him in this area. If he didn't make it a big deal, it wouldn't matter, but because he has, it's death. I dated someone with whom I shared professional skillsets and her terribleness at it was really a huge turnoff. Sorry, this is doomed.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:41 AM on March 16, 2010

Can you point him in the direction of writing groups or online communities that might be able to provide constructive, honest feedback?
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:42 AM on March 16, 2010

Are you just dating this guy to date or do you have the hope it will be a long term relationship, because I think that shining him on now will end badly, even if he doesn't press you for more detailed feedback.

As for how to talk about it, it seems like you have a good story to tell that happens to be true: That honest criticism when you were starting out may really benefitted you, that you'd like to encourage him and help him grow as a writer, but that you aren't sure about what that could do to your relationship. You could go so far as to offer to help connect him with someone else who could supply him with constructive feedback.
posted by Good Brain at 11:44 AM on March 16, 2010

In large part, this depends on him. Some people really can take constructive criticism, some people can't. Some people look for unconditional support from their significant others, others just want bare cut-to-the-chase opinions. You're going to have to feel him out to see what he's looking for when he asks you to read his stuff. If he's looking for unconditional support, then all he really wants is a smile, a friendly expression, and a hug; if he's looking for actual criticisms, then he's going to want your every opinion spelled out.

But, even if he is looking for real criticism, that doesn't mean you should ever be mean to him. If he gives you something and it's bad, like BAD-bad, that doesn't mean you should just straight-out say so, especially not after having claimed to have enjoyed it. If you can find specific pieces of advice to give, like, "I don't know what you meant when you said X," or "Right here, I feel like I could use some more descriptions," then give that. And following treehorn+bunny's advice, you can always find something nice to say without lying: don't sing high praises of something you think is horrible, but you should be able to find at least one aspect of his stuff that deserves praise. If you're a very critical person, then this might be an interesting challenge for you.
posted by Ms. Saint at 11:46 AM on March 16, 2010

Meant to say as well--I think that it's really, really hard to give feedback/criticism to a close friend or partner. You can share your expertise (by recommending a writing group) without being in the trenches with him.

Then again, what Optimus Chyme says rings true for me: I think you might need to clarify for yourself whether you think this person simply lacks polish and/or practice, or whether he'll never be at your level. If the latter, that doesn't sound like a fun relationship.
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:47 AM on March 16, 2010

It depends on the person, but my personal experience in this has been that even constructive criticism doesn't go over well. We all want our significant other to think we're wonderful and amazing and sexy and charming and gorgeous and smart and funny and etc., and when you suggest, however gently, that maybe something they did (something they think they're really good at) isn't wonderful, it can hurt. Tread carefully.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:48 AM on March 16, 2010

I don't think the fact that you don't like his writing now means the relationship absolutely can't work. I would, however, try to avoid reading his writing if you can. But definitely offer alternative suggestions for him to find constructive criticism elsewhere. And in the worst case that he demands your critiques, I would go for the positive comments like treehorn+bunny suggested.

illusive != elusive. Illusive means illusory. She/he's being clever, see? She/he is a published writer, after all.
posted by Grither at 11:48 AM on March 16, 2010

I have to say I'm with Optimus Chyme on this one. That would kill a budding relationship for me. (I have no problem with people who just don't write well and aren't trying to, but people who can't write and think they can drive me ABSOLUTELY FREAKING BATSHIT OMG.)
posted by restless_nomad at 11:49 AM on March 16, 2010

"I think it's great, but I'm biased because I love you. You should totally get a crit partner to give you a real gut check, since I'm useless to you here."

(I'm also a published author, and this is what I tell my husband. I actually think his book is pretty great- but I'm biased, because I love him.)
posted by headspace at 11:55 AM on March 16, 2010

I think it depends on a couple of things. First, what does "considers himself a writer" actually mean? Some people might consider themselves a writer because for them it's a somewhat serious hobby. For others it's because it's their profession, or they'd like it to be their profession anyway.

For the hobbyist you can be gentle with your critique unless they really push for more. But for the person trying to write professionally, I think you'd be doing them a disservice by being anything other than unbiased and honest in your response.

It also depends on the intended audience for their writing. If they wrote something for somewhat public view, you can be fairly honest with your feedback. But if they wrote it just for you, they probably want to know more about how the content of their writing made you feel rather than what you think of the writing itself.

In that latter case, I think the lyrics from Sloan's "Underwhelmed" are instructive:

She wrote out a story
About her life
I think it included
Something about me
I'm not sure of that
But I'm sure of one thing
Her spelling's atrocious
She told me to read
Between the lines
And tell her exactly
What I got out of it
I told her affection had two F's
Especially when
You're dealing with me

posted by FishBike at 12:01 PM on March 16, 2010

How honest is the rest of your relationship? You could push the limit on your current honesty, buffering the blow by saying "all my friends say I'm overly critical (of this genre?), so I might not be the best critic for this." Perhaps state "In things I read/write, I like to see more of this," making it more of a personal preference issue.

But however it goes, if you really don't like it, don't the exact opposite because it'll probably haunt you. He might even bandy your review around, saying "a certain published author thought it was great" and ignore other criticism. Bolstering expectations to avoid hurting his feelings will only make the fall harder (or the delusions worse). Or if he gives you more material and you eventually say you don't like the new material, or worse, that you never liked his work, you could really stress (or ruin) the relationship.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:07 PM on March 16, 2010

To flip Optimus Chyme's comment: I would never want to be in a relationship with someone who thought I was irredeemably terrible at something I loved doing, and who considered me beneath them because of it.

I don't think this is that sort of situation, though. This doesn't sound like a dealbreaker to me. It sounds like you empathize with him and want to help him without bruising his ego.

If I were in your shoes, I'd casually offer to sit down with him for an in-depth critique/editing session one day - probably not right before or after he gives you a piece to read, though. Approach edits from a "this is what publishers look for" or "this is what helped me when I was starting out" sort of perspective. He might really appreciate it.
posted by Metroid Baby at 12:12 PM on March 16, 2010

FishBike has it; if he's just at the beginning of his career and you see potential for improvement, then be gentle and honest. If you think he's as good as he's going to get but he continues to push you for feedback, then you just might not be compatible. It would be like a highbrow chef dating someone who eats meat and potatoes but asks questions like "hey, what do you think of the sprig of parsley I put on the macaroni and cheese?"
posted by Melismata at 12:12 PM on March 16, 2010

I think Optimus Chyme has it in the long run; if he identifies himself as a "writer" this issue isn't going to go away, and sooner or later the issue will be forced. You're going to have to keep reading his writing one way or another and I can't imagine that won't be a constant source of dread and uneasiness.

Let's go through the options. If you're determined, you could say that you don't give writing critiques to people you're dating because there's too much emotion tangled up in what is already an emotional thing for a lot of people. Or you could say you don't give writing critiques to anyone and encourage him to join a critique group or something.

I've tried the latter approach with friends, though, and it doesn't work well; they always swear they can take it and then get discouraged after they browbeat me into it. I've also tried recommending good books on general areas where they need help -- a "this book on dialogue is helpful" sort of thing. That way they don't have the trauma of my dissecting what they wrote and they can learn to edit their own writing so it's not terrible before they show it to someone else.

They never follow-up or read anything.

I've come to realize that if someone shows you some pretty terrible writing, what they want is for you to say that it's great. A lot of people want to call themselves writers because it has some hoity-toity connotation to them and they want that image of themselves. They don't actually want to put any work into getting better because not being "naturally" good at it is too big a self-esteem blow; it means someone has said they don't fit the image they aspire to, and they take it as a judgment of who they are as a person. But being a writer doesn't mean anything aside from writing, and all kinds of different people write.

If someone shows you something with promise, though, usually they care about the actual writing; they've already taken the steps to get better on their own and, even if they need some time to recover from criticism because they're human, they'll benefit from a critique because they're willing to take the steps necessary to get better. If these people still need help in one big area I'll suggest a book about it and leave it at that; I don't think dissecting is the best approach unless their stuff is already solid, at which point you can point out smaller things while balancing it out with sincere praise. Furthermore, that kind of relationship is sustainable because neither of you is obviously better than the other.

The problem you have here is that presumably you're the better writer and that's clear to both of you because you've been published and write for money. That kind of imbalance tends not to work well in a relationship -- no one wants to feel like their partner is "superior" so partners that share the same skillset usually only succeed if they're of roughly equal skill levels. But on top of that your boyfriend sounds like he might be the kind of writer that doesn't really want to get better. So essentially you have a situation where you can't be honest with your boyfriend, which is just another nail in the relationship coffin. It might sound callous, but if I were in your position I would just break up with him. It sounds doomed, and you two probably have different outlooks on the situation. Whereas you want to avoid talking about his writing altogether, he probably envisions you two being writing buddies. It stresses me out just thinking about it.
posted by Nattie at 12:16 PM on March 16, 2010

Not the singular of 'data,' but I know a couple--the wife, a writer, didn't like the husband's writing. (He's in academia.) He knew this (in a couple, it's hard to keep it a secret if it is an important activity) and found it intolerable. They managed to live with this for a few years as if it weren't important, but eventually, she left him for someone who's writing she liked.
posted by Obscure Reference at 12:17 PM on March 16, 2010

I agree taste is illusive. Carlyle's magnum opus was untouched by a publisher for seven years. Nietzsche's books did not sell. See the thread on the front page of the blue right now. There are people saying Cormac McCarthy stinks. There has not been a single writer in the history of the human race since they did the wedgie on clay tablets cuneiform thing who hasn't had to learn to withstand criticism.

Unless this is a passing phase in their life they are going to hear perpetual criticisms of all kinds, valid and bogus. If they succeed they will hear it every time they put their stuff out there.
posted by bukvich at 12:19 PM on March 16, 2010

I want to say this is terribly doomed, but it really depends on how highly he thinks of his writing and whether he's willing to learn.

After teaching creative writing, and being in a writing program, I find it difficult to curb my knee-jerk instinct to teach/offer critique. This has gone poorly with some friends who fancy themselves writers but are terrible (because they don't want criticism, just validation). But I have one friend, who I've known since high school, who's not a great writer, but is, instead, an incredibly hard worker, opening to learning more about writing, open to making her writing stronger and more cohesive. And, funnily enough, she's ended up offering some pretty good, honest critiques of my writing in exchange for feedback. Like all writers, sometimes we bristle a bit at one another's feedback, but it's been an incredibly productive relationship.

So I think this could work, if you're both dedicated to being more awesome and growing through the exchange. But if you both think you are already awesome and perfect and immutable--and if you're unwilling to learn anything from him, too--it might not be possible.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:26 PM on March 16, 2010

Just stopped by to say I love the use of the word "illusive" in this post.

Also, for what it is worth, I believe in being truthful, especially in relationships, but also kind and positively reinforcing. There is nothing wrong with saying that whatever needs work, e.g. grammar or spelling, but that the idea expressed is interesting, or that you'd love to see this piece again after some careful editing.
posted by bearwife at 12:30 PM on March 16, 2010

I agree with those who say you'd be better off just not reading the stuff, or offering as little comment as possible if he really wants you to read it. Keep in mind that opinions on all forms of creative work are only opinions. Someone else might really enjoy his writing. If you like him otherwise, don't bother getting critical with his writing, and concentrate on the things you like about him.

If he presses you for further comments, just be honest but tactful with him: it's possible to convey that his writing style doesn't suit your tastes, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It only means you don't really have much to say about it. Back that up by never saying much about it. He may stop pressing you for comments then.
posted by wondermouse at 12:43 PM on March 16, 2010

Tell him the truth and let him know why you think his writing stinks.

Worst case scenario is you break up, but on the plus side you won't have to endure anymore of his writing. Best case, he takes your advice and becomes a better writer.
posted by Nyarlathotep at 12:43 PM on March 16, 2010

On the other hand, if there are serious grammar/spelling issues, those are concrete errors and you can help him fix those.
posted by wondermouse at 12:46 PM on March 16, 2010

"Sweetheart, I can be your editor or your boyfriend. Not both."
posted by chairface at 1:40 PM on March 16, 2010

I dated a writer and to solve this dilemma I never read any of his work.
posted by geekigirl at 1:46 PM on March 16, 2010

I consider myself a writer too, and here's what I do. When I give my wife something to read I tell her how I want her to respond. That ranges from "Be really critical" through "Help me with the ending" to "Just tell me I'm brilliant." I need different responses at different stages in the process.

If he's not telling you what he wants, then ask him. It's simple.
posted by booth at 1:47 PM on March 16, 2010

It's really going to depend on (a) how well he takes criticism, and (b) under what level of delusion is he functioning, and (c) how important is it to him that he's a good writer and it impresses you.

Mostly I have to agree with those who say that if you can't stand his writing, it's gonna be a big problem, but if all he wants is hugs and pats and you can stomach it, and he's not submitting to 150 publications and whining to you how he just doesn't understand why nobody likes his writing but you, maybe you can deal. If he just shows you a short story he's not doing anything much with once in a while and you can say, "That's great, honey!", I think that's manageable.

But if:
(a) he gets very easily butthurt
(b) he claims to want criticism and then gets easily butthurt
(c) he claims to want criticism and then doesn't do anything when you give it to him
(d) he's really really serious about being a writer and he's applying all over the place and just doesn't get why nobody likes it
(e) it becomes some kind of awkward competition between the two of you (I know somebody whose husband was of the "butthurt if you don't give me tons of praise" school of thought, and she was afraid to write anything any more because it would become competitive drama)

it might not be worth it.

I also like what headspace suggested, if you can get away with it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:49 PM on March 16, 2010

I want to say that there is a chance you are wrong. There is a chance that what you interpret as bad writing is perfectly passable, even downright enjoyable writing by other people. Keeping an open mind to this possibility will make you seem like less of an asshole ("your writing sucks") and more generous in your dealings with others in life who may have more sincerity than talent (in your esteemed opinion). I am sure there are plenty of highly successful writers whose books you would consider utter crap, but whom you would be perfectly happy to date. Just try to separate the two and keep an open mind.
posted by mattbucher at 1:52 PM on March 16, 2010

Ask him what kind of feedback he is looking for with two questions: 1) are you looking for line edits or overall feedback and 2) has this already been published/submitted? If the answer to the second question is yes, then give overall feedback- including constructive criticism phrased in the way, "You briefly mentioned X, which I found really interesting. You should develop this idea further in your next piece- I'd like to see where you go with it."

If the answer to question 2 is no, then the answer the first question becomes relevant- and really, ask what he's looking for. Is he stuck? Does he feel it's lacking in content or technical strength? Then you can give feedback based on where he's at.

Offer to look over things before he submits them if he'd like- and ask him to look over a piece here and there you write before you post it. That will help with the equality in the situation, which is the second problem, given that you don't want to make him feel like a student instead of a boyfriend. Try not to compare your writings to his, and instead let each stand on its own. Remind yourself everyone has different styles, and really work to see the value in each of his pieces and encourage him based on those strengths. But your thoughts about his work really need to be just that- thoughts about his work and not an internal comparison between yours and his. If you're doing so, ask yourself why you need the validation of feeling superior.

There's not enough here to tell whether you see him as a partner or just a guy you're dating, but whether you respect him will be an important factor in your continued relationship.
posted by questionsandanchors at 1:57 PM on March 16, 2010

Whenever I contemplate any exercise of literary taste, most emphatically my own, I think of an entry in Virginia Woolf's diary describing hanging out at the offices of Hogarth Press with one of her literary pals (Katherine Mansfield?), and pulling a manuscript out of a drawer, reading aloud from it and laughing at it, until Mansfield turned suddenly thoughtful and said something like 'you know, there's really something to this'.

The manuscript was Joyce's Ulysses, and Hogarth rejected it.
posted by jamjam at 2:34 PM on March 16, 2010

It's wonderful for you that you have published a book. However, that isn't a perfect indicator of everlasting quality writing. I've read plenty of poorly written books (especially second books). Even if you are a great writer, it doesn't mean you are a wonderful editor of other people's work. Can you offer fair, honest suggestions without being insufferable?
posted by 26.2 at 3:50 PM on March 16, 2010

Ask him the next time he has something to show you: "Hey, you know, I read a lot of your stuff, and I realized I don't know what you're expecting from me. Are you sharing it for me to enjoy as a reader, or to get constructive criticism, or to get emotional support, or what? I know firsthand that being a writer is hard for all of us, and I never want to inadvertently get in the way of your development."
posted by davejay at 5:15 PM on March 16, 2010

Honestly? You seem to have the right idea. Being supportive is the number one thing, I think. Constructive criticism is good, if he can handle it. But be supportive first. Doesn't necessarily mean shower it with unnecessary praise. But I like to think of writing as a positive thing for a person to do, regardless of the quality, and it should be encouraged.
posted by Zorz at 5:49 PM on March 16, 2010

Incredibly helpful array of suggestions. BTW: The fate of the relationship does not hinge on my liking or not liking his writing -- in posting my question I wanted to explore suggestions, ways to find a middle ground between lying and telling the truth. And there's been some great feedback here. You folks have been awesome. Even the snarkers who went after me for my twisting up illusive and elusive (I had it coming! I suppose). Thanks peeps.
posted by zenpop at 6:51 PM on March 16, 2010

My intuition says to read what he shares and claim to have enjoyed it

Not to go all editor on you, but that's a clunky clause right there - which only demonstrates that most of us write poorly at first and need objective third party help to improve our writing. Is there a chance that he is not horrible, but rather he does not write in your style, or his drafts are just really bad and he needs to hone his editing skill? You are not qualified to judge or help in him. Make editing off limits for this relationship if you value him as a boyfriend.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:11 PM on March 16, 2010

*help him* not help in him. I need an editor, too.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:39 PM on March 16, 2010

FWIW the new aquaintance I ended up marrying decided I was worth knowing because I was one of the very few people who knew who would look at her paintings and tell her what I thought was wrong with it.
posted by rodgerd at 2:06 AM on March 17, 2010

I was quite relieved when my BF's photo portfolio turned out to be quite good, as competence is a trait I like. But he was a really bad husband.

Do other people think he's a less-than-terrific writer? Perhaps his style is not your taste, and perhaps he will get better with time and practice. If he's a not very good writer, unable to see it, and insists on sharing, it will end up being excruciating unless his other attributes are really fantastic.
posted by theora55 at 6:54 AM on March 17, 2010

If you are skilled at providing tactful and diplomatic feedback, then I like your thought to provide feedback if pushed to do so. But I would provide it in a restrained and diplomatic manner. And I wouldn't critique every aspect of it - choose one or two and offer a gentle suggestion if asked.

My guess is that it's easier to take constructive criticism from colleagues and/or mentors (or even friends) than it is to hear it from a girlfriend. If I considered myself a writer and my boyfriend ripped apart my writing, I would probably not be super excited about dating him, and I'd probably have some difficulty using his advice, no matter how constructive.

It sounds like this issue has been handled already in the relationship, so I'm curious why it comes up now.
posted by KAS at 7:22 AM on March 17, 2010

Well, if his actual writing style is flat, is the big idea interesting? My boyfriend's got crazy great big ideas, and works with actual plots and storylines that I haven't ventured near in ages. I think his style leaves something to be desired, but I respect the way he structures and fleshes out his pieces.

Plus, don't forget about folks like James Patterson and Nicholas Sparks and the other usual suspects. Even if you don't fall all over yourself in adoration of his prose, does it work? If it works at all, then you can acknowledge and appreciate that.
posted by redsparkler at 10:55 AM on March 20, 2010

I think relationships should be based on honesty.

That said, the question is whether writing is a hobby or not.

If your wife asks, "Does my ass look fat in these jeans?" your answer is "no." (Unless it's, "Yum.")

If your wife who is a professional actress asks the question, then you have to be honest, because she needs to know the answer.

I would find something positive to say, then add something constructively critical, and see what the response is. If he goes and fixes it, then he's serious, and wants constructive criticism. If he ignores it or gets huffy, then you don't have to offer criticism again.

But you will probably start looking for a new boyfriend.
posted by musofire at 5:29 AM on June 9, 2010