Yes I am really the attorney. Yes I know I look young. And why the hell does it matter whether I'm single?
November 3, 2009 12:32 PM Subscribe
How do I professionally handle sexual harassment/sexual comments at work and also not lose my mind in the process? Note: I am not looking for legal advise.
I'm a female attorney in my mid to late 20's. I look as though I'm in my early 20's and could pass for a teenager with little effort. I work for a company (i.e. not a law firm) that is only about 20% attorneys. The fellow attorneys at my company are great. They are relaxed, but professional. We occaisonally socialize together and it is always enjoyable.
My problem is the other 80% who I spend the majority of my time with. The non attorney men in my company are predominately old school and come from a very working class background.
On the least offensive side of the spectrum I regularly (i.e. daily) get comments like: You're pretty/gorgeous (my looks are then discussed at length, but not in an explicit way) Are you single? What kind of men do you like? Offers to take me out for lunch/drinks/dinner. Comments about my hair, weight, "hooker" heels (this seems to be a favorite for any women wearing pointy shoes and any heel height including 1/2 inch), clothes, etc...
On the most offensive side of the spectrum: long explicit stories from 60 year old men about what 26 year old they are nailing. Long explicit stories about every sexual conquest they have ever had. Precise descriptions of what kind of women they find attractive. Comments about how any professionally successful women who is vaguelly attractive slept her way to the top/got preferential treatment because of her looks.
And now I'm rambling, but you get the idea. I am chosen for a variety of reasons that I am not interested in taking any sort of legal action or filing a complaint. Doing so would almost certainly hurt my career. Most of the men making these comments are my superiors but are NOT my managers (i.e. they are technically higher up than me, but in no way make decisions about my job, however they do wield a lot of indirect power should they choose to use it).
This situation is slowly driving me insane. I hate having to constantly suck it up and depending on my mood I either laugh it off or occaisonally make a comment to show that I am not amused. Is there any better way for me to handle this that will not alienate my coworkers, but that will also shut them up? I already have a reputation for being too "serious".
Am I overreacting? The feminist inside me is screaming that I went to law school to be treated like some little thing there for decoration. I know that many of my female coworkers experience the exact same thing as I do.
I find that I am not taken as seriously as the male attorneys with the same amount of experience because of the way I am treated by these men. Is there any way to make them take me seriously?
I realize I may be fighting a losing battle and I will be trying to get a new job when that's an option, but in the current market there are no other jobs on the horizon for me.
I'm a female attorney in my mid to late 20's. I look as though I'm in my early 20's and could pass for a teenager with little effort. I work for a company (i.e. not a law firm) that is only about 20% attorneys. The fellow attorneys at my company are great. They are relaxed, but professional. We occaisonally socialize together and it is always enjoyable.
My problem is the other 80% who I spend the majority of my time with. The non attorney men in my company are predominately old school and come from a very working class background.
On the least offensive side of the spectrum I regularly (i.e. daily) get comments like: You're pretty/gorgeous (my looks are then discussed at length, but not in an explicit way) Are you single? What kind of men do you like? Offers to take me out for lunch/drinks/dinner. Comments about my hair, weight, "hooker" heels (this seems to be a favorite for any women wearing pointy shoes and any heel height including 1/2 inch), clothes, etc...
On the most offensive side of the spectrum: long explicit stories from 60 year old men about what 26 year old they are nailing. Long explicit stories about every sexual conquest they have ever had. Precise descriptions of what kind of women they find attractive. Comments about how any professionally successful women who is vaguelly attractive slept her way to the top/got preferential treatment because of her looks.
And now I'm rambling, but you get the idea. I am chosen for a variety of reasons that I am not interested in taking any sort of legal action or filing a complaint. Doing so would almost certainly hurt my career. Most of the men making these comments are my superiors but are NOT my managers (i.e. they are technically higher up than me, but in no way make decisions about my job, however they do wield a lot of indirect power should they choose to use it).
This situation is slowly driving me insane. I hate having to constantly suck it up and depending on my mood I either laugh it off or occaisonally make a comment to show that I am not amused. Is there any better way for me to handle this that will not alienate my coworkers, but that will also shut them up? I already have a reputation for being too "serious".
Am I overreacting? The feminist inside me is screaming that I went to law school to be treated like some little thing there for decoration. I know that many of my female coworkers experience the exact same thing as I do.
I find that I am not taken as seriously as the male attorneys with the same amount of experience because of the way I am treated by these men. Is there any way to make them take me seriously?
I realize I may be fighting a losing battle and I will be trying to get a new job when that's an option, but in the current market there are no other jobs on the horizon for me.
You're not overreacting at all, but there's probably not much you can do to change your coworkers' worldview (and it is a worldview; I'm guessing that seeing you and your female colleagues do well professionally gives them a big "DOES NOT COMPUTE" in their brains).
However, you could probably make things more bearable by making an effort to bond with your female colleagues over this treatment (if you go out for drinks together, this will probably be pretty easy to do). This would do two things:
1. Let each of you know that you're not alone, which could make it easier for you all to block out the sexist noise.
2. Show your antagonists that you have each other's backs, which could lead them to leave you all alone.
posted by oinopaponton at 12:40 PM on November 3, 2009
However, you could probably make things more bearable by making an effort to bond with your female colleagues over this treatment (if you go out for drinks together, this will probably be pretty easy to do). This would do two things:
1. Let each of you know that you're not alone, which could make it easier for you all to block out the sexist noise.
2. Show your antagonists that you have each other's backs, which could lead them to leave you all alone.
posted by oinopaponton at 12:40 PM on November 3, 2009
I find that I am not taken as seriously as the male attorneys with the same amount of experience because of the way I am treated by these men. Is there any way to make them take me seriously?
Holy fuck. I'm a guy, so I'm probably going to be saying things that are dense (apologies), but isn't the way you're being treated deeply, deeply illegal? Do you really have to worry about getting fired/getting bad references/etc. in order to shut these douchebags up?
The first thing that occurs to me, can you get any help from your fellow attorneys, can they insist on you being treated properly and take some of the weight of this task off of your shoulders? Not that you should have to, but, sounds like it may be a tricky thing for you based on the circumstances.
Jeez, I'm so angry for you right now...that is absolutely obnoxious, and you shouldn't have to put up with it or think it's normal or think you are "too serious" or whatever other bullshit seems to be flowing from these pigs' mouths...
posted by dubitable at 12:41 PM on November 3, 2009 [11 favorites]
Holy fuck. I'm a guy, so I'm probably going to be saying things that are dense (apologies), but isn't the way you're being treated deeply, deeply illegal? Do you really have to worry about getting fired/getting bad references/etc. in order to shut these douchebags up?
The first thing that occurs to me, can you get any help from your fellow attorneys, can they insist on you being treated properly and take some of the weight of this task off of your shoulders? Not that you should have to, but, sounds like it may be a tricky thing for you based on the circumstances.
Jeez, I'm so angry for you right now...that is absolutely obnoxious, and you shouldn't have to put up with it or think it's normal or think you are "too serious" or whatever other bullshit seems to be flowing from these pigs' mouths...
posted by dubitable at 12:41 PM on November 3, 2009 [11 favorites]
I just reread your post and saw that you don't want to file a complaint. You really, really need to. You, or another woman who is more senior than you that you trust. This is unacceptable and it's making lots of peoples' lives miserable; not just yours. I would like to know why you think it is it could hurt your professional reputation if you did this, because if done right, no one should know it is you -- there should be a management or, most ideally, HR buffer.
If you need references, you can and should get them from the other (senior?) women whose lives you've made easier by escalating this situation.
posted by olinerd at 12:49 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
If you need references, you can and should get them from the other (senior?) women whose lives you've made easier by escalating this situation.
posted by olinerd at 12:49 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Maybe a weird look and "would you say that to your mother/sister/a guy that?" or something similar might drive it a bit closer to home for them.
Also: that that is happening at all is SO WRONG.
posted by Xany at 12:52 PM on November 3, 2009
Also: that that is happening at all is SO WRONG.
posted by Xany at 12:52 PM on November 3, 2009
You need to embrace your "too serious" side.
You've been willing to "suck it up" and put up with pervasive illegal sexual harassment, right?
Why can't you "suck it up" and deal with their disapproval when you tell them to stop it or else face legal action?
-
posted by General Tonic at 12:54 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
You've been willing to "suck it up" and put up with pervasive illegal sexual harassment, right?
Why can't you "suck it up" and deal with their disapproval when you tell them to stop it or else face legal action?
-
posted by General Tonic at 12:54 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Not overreacting at all. Is there any kind of HR department at your company? At the very least contacting management who does the HR related work is necessary for your sanity. OP, keep us posted - I really hope something can be done about the jurassic-era fossils in your office.
And dubitable, you didn't say anything dense. Refreshing to read, actually.
posted by rmm at 12:55 PM on November 3, 2009
And dubitable, you didn't say anything dense. Refreshing to read, actually.
posted by rmm at 12:55 PM on November 3, 2009
I realize I may be fighting a losing battle
It depends what you want them to do. If you want to give them a come-to-Jesus where they go "you're right, we are cads and we apologize," that may not happen. But if you want to get them to just, you know, SHUT UP about the sex talk already, you can.
The next time anyone says something you dislike, just tell them politely but firmly that you don't like that. One of the old guys starts talking about the girl he's banging? "Excuse me, but I really would prefer if we didn't discuss that kind of thing in the office and I would appreciate it if we kept our conversations away from personal topics. Thank you." One of the guys starts asking you what kind of men you like? "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that with you. Thank you." One of the guys asks you out? "I'm afraid not, and I'd appreciate your not asking me any more, as well."
If they continue to harangue you? "I've said before that I didn't want to discuss this with you, and I would appreciate it if you dropped this, please."
If they STILL continue to harnague you? Start writing stuff down, and complain to HR. YOU ARE NOT OVERREACTING, and you have EVERY RIGHT to talk to HR about this. Fuck whether it would "hurt your career," losing your mind would hurt your career more. The guys who are trying to ask you out and are NOT taking no for an answer are definitely, definitely over the line to the extent that HR would want to know about it.
Finally:
Fuck not wearing skirts to work. That's a blame-the-victim excuse.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:55 PM on November 3, 2009 [28 favorites]
It depends what you want them to do. If you want to give them a come-to-Jesus where they go "you're right, we are cads and we apologize," that may not happen. But if you want to get them to just, you know, SHUT UP about the sex talk already, you can.
The next time anyone says something you dislike, just tell them politely but firmly that you don't like that. One of the old guys starts talking about the girl he's banging? "Excuse me, but I really would prefer if we didn't discuss that kind of thing in the office and I would appreciate it if we kept our conversations away from personal topics. Thank you." One of the guys starts asking you what kind of men you like? "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that with you. Thank you." One of the guys asks you out? "I'm afraid not, and I'd appreciate your not asking me any more, as well."
If they continue to harangue you? "I've said before that I didn't want to discuss this with you, and I would appreciate it if you dropped this, please."
If they STILL continue to harnague you? Start writing stuff down, and complain to HR. YOU ARE NOT OVERREACTING, and you have EVERY RIGHT to talk to HR about this. Fuck whether it would "hurt your career," losing your mind would hurt your career more. The guys who are trying to ask you out and are NOT taking no for an answer are definitely, definitely over the line to the extent that HR would want to know about it.
Finally:
Fuck not wearing skirts to work. That's a blame-the-victim excuse.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:55 PM on November 3, 2009 [28 favorites]
These men act this way for two reasons. (1) You are young and successful and they are not - they want to bring you down a notch, make you feel small and uncomfortable so that they can feel big and mighty, and (2) they are trying to look good in front of their coworkers by treating you like crap.
There are a bunch of different ways to handle this sort of Alpha Male behavior, and it's going to depend on what exactly you're comfortable with. Basically, you need to dismantle either reason 1 or reason 2, and which you choose is going to depend on your temperment.
Dismantling Reason #1 generally takes the form of becoming "just one of the guys" - ie, when they launch into graphic stories about their sexual conquest, insult their masculinity. If they ask you out to dinner, say "Sure! I'll invite the whole department!" When they compliment you're attire and generally dissect your looks, respond in kind. This takes a lot of guts and I have a hard time pulling it off successfully. I think if you had the stomach for this, you'd already be doing it?
Dismantling Reason #2 takes a covert operation - befriend the less-horrible non-lawyers who treat you like a human being. Give them preferential treatment any way you can - whether it's rushing their tasks through legal or standing up for them in meetings or buying them pitchers. When they start to see you as a coworker and an ally, and the other meatheads notice that you can be a useful asset, they might start to fall in line.
On preview, what I end up doing is usually a mix of Dismantling Reason #2 and EmpressCallipygos's suggestion. I have walked out of meetings before when they strayed off-topic and it can be very effective, but it will give you A Reputation.
posted by muddgirl at 1:01 PM on November 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
There are a bunch of different ways to handle this sort of Alpha Male behavior, and it's going to depend on what exactly you're comfortable with. Basically, you need to dismantle either reason 1 or reason 2, and which you choose is going to depend on your temperment.
Dismantling Reason #1 generally takes the form of becoming "just one of the guys" - ie, when they launch into graphic stories about their sexual conquest, insult their masculinity. If they ask you out to dinner, say "Sure! I'll invite the whole department!" When they compliment you're attire and generally dissect your looks, respond in kind. This takes a lot of guts and I have a hard time pulling it off successfully. I think if you had the stomach for this, you'd already be doing it?
Dismantling Reason #2 takes a covert operation - befriend the less-horrible non-lawyers who treat you like a human being. Give them preferential treatment any way you can - whether it's rushing their tasks through legal or standing up for them in meetings or buying them pitchers. When they start to see you as a coworker and an ally, and the other meatheads notice that you can be a useful asset, they might start to fall in line.
On preview, what I end up doing is usually a mix of Dismantling Reason #2 and EmpressCallipygos's suggestion. I have walked out of meetings before when they strayed off-topic and it can be very effective, but it will give you A Reputation.
posted by muddgirl at 1:01 PM on November 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
The HR person, as noted, should be told of this. Actually, the place seems big enough so that there should have been a gathering of some sort to discuss the do's and do not's of the workplace. Or at least some printed matter. The other lawyers know that such behavior is
possible cause for legal action and perhaps you might discuss it with one or more of them so they can initiate a learning process.
My wife works for a large firm and it is made very clear what can and can not be done in the workplace with fellow employees. A good reason for so stating such things is not just to prevent law suits but to have due cause for letting a person go who will not follow the rules.
posted by Postroad at 1:02 PM on November 3, 2009
possible cause for legal action and perhaps you might discuss it with one or more of them so they can initiate a learning process.
My wife works for a large firm and it is made very clear what can and can not be done in the workplace with fellow employees. A good reason for so stating such things is not just to prevent law suits but to have due cause for letting a person go who will not follow the rules.
posted by Postroad at 1:02 PM on November 3, 2009
My response (and even being a guy, I've been in situations similar to this with gay men) is to say, "Whoa, whoa WHOA!! That is WAY too much information, man! I don't want to hear about that!" This can be said with varying degrees of outrage or humor, depending on the situation. If they persist, get a little more straightforward and say (again, with varying degrees of seriousness, depending), "No, seriously. I REALLY do not want to hear about your love life/sexual conquests/this..."
The point for me is to always communicate that the person is important, I'm just not interested/comfortable with their level of "sharing." Sorry about your situation. It sucks, and this is one of the times I feel the need to apologize for my gender. Good luck.
posted by Spyder's Game at 1:04 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
The point for me is to always communicate that the person is important, I'm just not interested/comfortable with their level of "sharing." Sorry about your situation. It sucks, and this is one of the times I feel the need to apologize for my gender. Good luck.
posted by Spyder's Game at 1:04 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
I agree with EmpressCallipygos--you get to wear skirts if you want to they have the problem, not you. As an attorney and a self-described feminist, you really need to rethink filing a complaint. You owe it to yourself. This is highly illegal behavior.
You need to speak to HR or whoever acts as HR. Start doing what EC suggests above and tell them each and everytime that what they are saying is not appropriate. Leave the room if they continue to be inappropriate. Write everything down and, I would start bringing a tape recorder with me at all times. When they start in, warn them. Then hold up the tape recorder and turn it on and say, "Could you speak toward the mic, please?" and explain you want the evidence for your lawsuit.
If you are not willing to do any of this, then get out. This is not the job for you. You did not work hard in school, earn good grades, pass the bar, etc. to put up with this. You will find something else to do.
posted by agatha_magatha at 1:06 PM on November 3, 2009
You need to speak to HR or whoever acts as HR. Start doing what EC suggests above and tell them each and everytime that what they are saying is not appropriate. Leave the room if they continue to be inappropriate. Write everything down and, I would start bringing a tape recorder with me at all times. When they start in, warn them. Then hold up the tape recorder and turn it on and say, "Could you speak toward the mic, please?" and explain you want the evidence for your lawsuit.
If you are not willing to do any of this, then get out. This is not the job for you. You did not work hard in school, earn good grades, pass the bar, etc. to put up with this. You will find something else to do.
posted by agatha_magatha at 1:06 PM on November 3, 2009
Who cares if you have a reputation for being too serious... fuck em. You need to be able to work with them but I wouldn't care if they liked me on a personal level. As a matter of fact, I would try to encourage them in that opinion. As uncomfortable as they are making you, you shouldn't have any reservations about doing the same by receiving this behavior with a cold, business-like manner.
posted by Foam Pants at 1:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Foam Pants at 1:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have walked out of meetings before when they strayed off-topic and it can be very effective, but it will give you A Reputation.
Frankly, I think worrying about "A Reputation" is a bullshit reason to not do something. Sure, you'll get a reputation -- but it will be a reputation amongst the fucktards, and who the hell cares what THEY think?
That's why you keep scrupulously accurate and exacting records of everything and you follow the exact procedure that HR advises you to do -- so absolutely positively nothing you do or say can be turned against you. Then it becomes pretty much apparent before long that the only people looking down on you are only doing so over bullshit reasons, and that the "reputation" they're assigning to you is similarly flawed, and then THEY end up with the Reputation for being fucktards.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 PM on November 3, 2009
Frankly, I think worrying about "A Reputation" is a bullshit reason to not do something. Sure, you'll get a reputation -- but it will be a reputation amongst the fucktards, and who the hell cares what THEY think?
That's why you keep scrupulously accurate and exacting records of everything and you follow the exact procedure that HR advises you to do -- so absolutely positively nothing you do or say can be turned against you. Then it becomes pretty much apparent before long that the only people looking down on you are only doing so over bullshit reasons, and that the "reputation" they're assigning to you is similarly flawed, and then THEY end up with the Reputation for being fucktards.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 PM on November 3, 2009
Carly Fiorina talked about how she had to attend meetings at strip clubs, and how she just had to tough it out. I'm sorry, it sucks badly, but there probably isn't much you can do other than breathe deeply and remember it's not about you. Read Fiorina's memoir for more on her path to power.
posted by anadem at 1:09 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by anadem at 1:09 PM on November 3, 2009
Get some business cards printed... but not about you, instead for you to give out.
The harassers think they have scored. "Alright, name and phone number!"
Instead, the card has the name, address and phone number for a local, government operated sexual harassment counseling service. You may see a few faces that say, "Oops."
This really sucks. It certainly gives you a horrible experience of the business world at the beginning of your career. There are stellar companies out there that do not tolerate this for even a second. Best of luck to you.
posted by netbros at 1:10 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
The harassers think they have scored. "Alright, name and phone number!"
Instead, the card has the name, address and phone number for a local, government operated sexual harassment counseling service. You may see a few faces that say, "Oops."
This really sucks. It certainly gives you a horrible experience of the business world at the beginning of your career. There are stellar companies out there that do not tolerate this for even a second. Best of luck to you.
posted by netbros at 1:10 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Also: In my experience it's been really unhelpful to react to these kinds of comments in any way that seems submissive.
If you are going to laugh at them, laugh loudly and a little disdainfully. If you are going to ignore them, ignore them pointedly. If you are going to take a teaching moment, do so calmly and firmly and in statements that don't end with a question mark.
Frankly, I think worrying about "A Reputation" is a bullshit reason to not do something. Sure, you'll get a reputation -- but it will be a reputation amongst the fucktards, and who the hell cares what THEY think?
Oh hell, I agree with you. Having A Reputation can be a good thing, but I don't delude myself into thinking that an HR complaint will do anything other than get me fired, in the short term, followed by a lawsuit in the long term. It takes action from the very top of a company to create and maintain this kind of environment - it doesn't happen organically. If there were any institutional support backing the OP, she wouldn't be in this position in the first place.
posted by muddgirl at 1:11 PM on November 3, 2009 [6 favorites]
If you are going to laugh at them, laugh loudly and a little disdainfully. If you are going to ignore them, ignore them pointedly. If you are going to take a teaching moment, do so calmly and firmly and in statements that don't end with a question mark.
Frankly, I think worrying about "A Reputation" is a bullshit reason to not do something. Sure, you'll get a reputation -- but it will be a reputation amongst the fucktards, and who the hell cares what THEY think?
Oh hell, I agree with you. Having A Reputation can be a good thing, but I don't delude myself into thinking that an HR complaint will do anything other than get me fired, in the short term, followed by a lawsuit in the long term. It takes action from the very top of a company to create and maintain this kind of environment - it doesn't happen organically. If there were any institutional support backing the OP, she wouldn't be in this position in the first place.
posted by muddgirl at 1:11 PM on November 3, 2009 [6 favorites]
For starters, I would document everything. And once I had a significant, representative record, I would meet with someone in HR and discuss the problem with him or her. The HR person will probably then develop some sort of strategy for dealing with this, whether it's helping you write an email to the guilty parties, or themselves doing some much needed sexual harassment policy education. From the sounds of it, the latter course is the one that's warranted because the general environment needs to change rather than just one individual, or even a few people. At any rate you want HR to be aware of the problem and working on your behalf. And it's not your responsibility to make your co-workers behave appropriately.
And I'd be dropping a few "as a lawyer I'm aware of sexual harassment legal precedent blah blah blah" comments to HR to delicately remind them that you could hand them their asses on a platter if they don't deal with this matter pronto.
posted by orange swan at 1:11 PM on November 3, 2009
And I'd be dropping a few "as a lawyer I'm aware of sexual harassment legal precedent blah blah blah" comments to HR to delicately remind them that you could hand them their asses on a platter if they don't deal with this matter pronto.
posted by orange swan at 1:11 PM on November 3, 2009
To elaborate on the skirt comment I made:
I enjoy skirts (I have one on today, in fact). But the OP is asking for ways to be taken more seriously. Skirts vs pants, in a professional environment, can make a real difference in how seriously you're taken, especially if the environment is male dominated. For the first 1.5 years at my company I wore pants, until I felt I was respected enough to introduce skirts (and even then I got some [mostly friendly] comments). When I have a meeting with customers, I never, ever wear a skirt, so I can head the "You don't look like an engineer" off at the pass to some degree. I also wear a fake wedding ring to tradeshows and conferences to reduce the hitting-on, wear taller heels if I know I'm meeting with tall men, take a different color or fabric purse depending on who I'm meeting with, put on different jewelry, etc, all depending on how I think people will receive me as a woman.
So yes, in an ideal world, I could wear (or not wear) whatever the hell I wanted and it'd all be hunky-dory. In the real world, if you want to shut some people the fuck up, you change the way you present yourself while fighting the good fight in other ways. Yep, it sucks. The rude/offensive comments and lack of respect suck more.
And once you've beaten everyone into submission and respect, it makes the return of skirt wearing all that more satisfying.
posted by olinerd at 1:18 PM on November 3, 2009 [7 favorites]
I enjoy skirts (I have one on today, in fact). But the OP is asking for ways to be taken more seriously. Skirts vs pants, in a professional environment, can make a real difference in how seriously you're taken, especially if the environment is male dominated. For the first 1.5 years at my company I wore pants, until I felt I was respected enough to introduce skirts (and even then I got some [mostly friendly] comments). When I have a meeting with customers, I never, ever wear a skirt, so I can head the "You don't look like an engineer" off at the pass to some degree. I also wear a fake wedding ring to tradeshows and conferences to reduce the hitting-on, wear taller heels if I know I'm meeting with tall men, take a different color or fabric purse depending on who I'm meeting with, put on different jewelry, etc, all depending on how I think people will receive me as a woman.
So yes, in an ideal world, I could wear (or not wear) whatever the hell I wanted and it'd all be hunky-dory. In the real world, if you want to shut some people the fuck up, you change the way you present yourself while fighting the good fight in other ways. Yep, it sucks. The rude/offensive comments and lack of respect suck more.
And once you've beaten everyone into submission and respect, it makes the return of skirt wearing all that more satisfying.
posted by olinerd at 1:18 PM on November 3, 2009 [7 favorites]
Welp, for reasons of your own, you don't want to make anything official (HR-wise or legally or whatnot), so I say fight back with all guns blazing.
"Hey, pretty thing . . . "
"Hey, ugly old grey man."
"Nice hooker heels!"
"Nice mustard stain, you balding schmoe."
"Hey, you single?"
"No, I'm a clone. She won't fuck you either."
Sure, you'll probably end up being "that bitch," but on the other hand, who gives a fuck?
posted by Skot at 1:18 PM on November 3, 2009 [9 favorites]
"Hey, pretty thing . . . "
"Hey, ugly old grey man."
"Nice hooker heels!"
"Nice mustard stain, you balding schmoe."
"Hey, you single?"
"No, I'm a clone. She won't fuck you either."
Sure, you'll probably end up being "that bitch," but on the other hand, who gives a fuck?
posted by Skot at 1:18 PM on November 3, 2009 [9 favorites]
Carly Fiorina talked about how she had to attend meetings at strip clubs, and how she just had to tough it out. I'm sorry, it sucks badly, but there probably isn't much you can do other than breathe deeply and remember it's not about you. Read Fiorina's memoir for more on her path to power.
That is...so besides the point. Seriously.
posted by dubitable at 1:21 PM on November 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
That is...so besides the point. Seriously.
posted by dubitable at 1:21 PM on November 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure why having a reputation as someone who won't put up with this kind of bullshit is a bad thing. I think it's a great thing, exactly what you want; if everybody knows "Anonymous doesn't like being sexually harassed", fabulous.
Of course I think the best solution is to speak with HR, even if you're not going to file a formal complaint. Right now you may not want to file something, but a) that could change or b) someone else might want to in the future.
In my own (totally dissimilar, I'm an academic) situation, I did not want to file a formal complaint, and I avoided telling anyone about the problems for a long time. When I finally did speak with the ombudsperson, I still didn't want to file a complaint; but they did give me great help on handling the situation, pointed me to plenty of useful resources on how to handle myself as well as the other person involved, etc.
Your closest equivalent of an ombudsperson is HR, except yes, HR is there to protect the company, not you; it seems to me right now that your interests align though. If the situation is this bad, they *are* going to get sued, even if it isn't by you. Thus I would think they'd be on board with improving things and/or giving you skills/resources to help handle the situation yourself.
posted by nat at 1:23 PM on November 3, 2009
Of course I think the best solution is to speak with HR, even if you're not going to file a formal complaint. Right now you may not want to file something, but a) that could change or b) someone else might want to in the future.
In my own (totally dissimilar, I'm an academic) situation, I did not want to file a formal complaint, and I avoided telling anyone about the problems for a long time. When I finally did speak with the ombudsperson, I still didn't want to file a complaint; but they did give me great help on handling the situation, pointed me to plenty of useful resources on how to handle myself as well as the other person involved, etc.
Your closest equivalent of an ombudsperson is HR, except yes, HR is there to protect the company, not you; it seems to me right now that your interests align though. If the situation is this bad, they *are* going to get sued, even if it isn't by you. Thus I would think they'd be on board with improving things and/or giving you skills/resources to help handle the situation yourself.
posted by nat at 1:23 PM on November 3, 2009
Absolutely, Fight.
Lean in close and use profanity. Talk quietly enough that he is the only one who hears you and say something so over the top that his brains pour out his ears. Emasculate him. It's absolutely acceptable to go after his age, dick size, IQ whatever. Think seventh grade.
posted by mearls at 1:24 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Lean in close and use profanity. Talk quietly enough that he is the only one who hears you and say something so over the top that his brains pour out his ears. Emasculate him. It's absolutely acceptable to go after his age, dick size, IQ whatever. Think seventh grade.
posted by mearls at 1:24 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Carly Fiorina talked about how she had to attend meetings at strip clubs, and how she just had to tough it out. I'm sorry, it sucks badly, but there probably isn't much you can do other than breathe deeply and remember it's not about you. Read Fiorina's memoir for more on her path to power.
Actually, it's not just beside the point it's regressive and offensive. What a stupid thing to say, really. "Because formerly, women had to deal with bullshit in order to get to the same places in their career as men, therefore women will always have to do bullshit things to get to succeed like men. Suck it up honey!"
Yeah, lame, seriously dude.
posted by dubitable at 1:25 PM on November 3, 2009 [8 favorites]
Actually, it's not just beside the point it's regressive and offensive. What a stupid thing to say, really. "Because formerly, women had to deal with bullshit in order to get to the same places in their career as men, therefore women will always have to do bullshit things to get to succeed like men. Suck it up honey!"
Yeah, lame, seriously dude.
posted by dubitable at 1:25 PM on November 3, 2009 [8 favorites]
(Disclaimer: I am a male attorney at a large law firm so this is all from the perspective of male privilege.)
When I first read through the post I thought this was a version of a young associate dealing with Clients Behaving Badly. There is an inherent power imbalance between young lawyers eager to please their clients, and clients behaving like jerks.
However, the OP says she's not working for a firm so I started down a different line of reasoning. But then re-thought.
In many large companies I work with, junior corporate attorneys are very much beholden to their "internal" clients. For operational / organizational reasons, junior corporate attorneys often have to suck up to VP's just like outside attorneys need to jump at their client's every whim. Just food for thought for the people suggesting confrontation.
Anyways, to the OP, first, what duties do you owe to your company to assist in risk management? Do the lawyers (in-house or otherwise) who handle labor and employment matters know that there is a culture that might effectively add up to a hostile work environment? Do the L&E attorneys share in your impression of things, or are they part of the boys' club, too?
Second, are there allies / friendly ears you can locate or rely on? Are other women (lawyers or not) in your position (or more senior) likely to have experienced the same thing / dealt with the same people? A sympathetic ear can go a long way towards decreasing the insanity. Not in the context of "I am telling you to report an HR issue" but in the context of "I need a friend / mentor".
Finally, regardless of what you do -- documentation and corroboration of everything you're experiencing is likely to give you leverage in the future.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 1:29 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
When I first read through the post I thought this was a version of a young associate dealing with Clients Behaving Badly. There is an inherent power imbalance between young lawyers eager to please their clients, and clients behaving like jerks.
However, the OP says she's not working for a firm so I started down a different line of reasoning. But then re-thought.
In many large companies I work with, junior corporate attorneys are very much beholden to their "internal" clients. For operational / organizational reasons, junior corporate attorneys often have to suck up to VP's just like outside attorneys need to jump at their client's every whim. Just food for thought for the people suggesting confrontation.
Anyways, to the OP, first, what duties do you owe to your company to assist in risk management? Do the lawyers (in-house or otherwise) who handle labor and employment matters know that there is a culture that might effectively add up to a hostile work environment? Do the L&E attorneys share in your impression of things, or are they part of the boys' club, too?
Second, are there allies / friendly ears you can locate or rely on? Are other women (lawyers or not) in your position (or more senior) likely to have experienced the same thing / dealt with the same people? A sympathetic ear can go a long way towards decreasing the insanity. Not in the context of "I am telling you to report an HR issue" but in the context of "I need a friend / mentor".
Finally, regardless of what you do -- documentation and corroboration of everything you're experiencing is likely to give you leverage in the future.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 1:29 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
On the skirt thing, as a woman and a lawyer I would never, ever, recommend that another woman not wear a skirt or do the things olinerd said...but I do do the same kinds of things - to a varying degrees depending on the job or context. One more is that I have long, blond hair and I always tie it back for meetings or presentations.
But, all the "deal vs. real world sacrifices aside, I would encourage you to try to find a way to get this to stop.
posted by Pax at 1:30 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
But, all the "deal vs. real world sacrifices aside, I would encourage you to try to find a way to get this to stop.
posted by Pax at 1:30 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seconding documenting everything. If your goal is to just be able to endure, it could be a good outlet, and you can publish it or give it to HR (anonymously or not) when/if you eventually leave. If that won't work, you can save it and publish a horrifying book once the lameos retire, or you retire, or just keep it in case you do end up having to sue them.
Also -- to the other commenters -- it sounds like, for whatever reason, hostile responses aren't going to work here. She wants to get along with these folks.
I do think it's possible to make a little tiny bit of progress without alienating anyone, but it won't be quick. It might take the form of a carefully-rehearsed, well-played conversation with a few selected individuals, or a joking comment (maybe about suing) that only disarms some people.
The thing is, by commenting on your appearance, or talking about their personal relationships, they're forcing you into the role of "girl" rather than "professional", and that can make your brain just...stop. There doesn't seem to be a way around it, or through it gracefully.
But don't _let_ your brain stop. You're smart, and it's not fair that you have to divert your attention to dealing with this, but at least you can. Other women without your intellectual resources are even more stuck, so be grateful for your intelligence and education. Maybe you can change the subject, maybe you can leave, maybe you can address this head on, and by gosh it's going to just get exhausting sometimes and sometimes there's nothing you can do. So keeping a log, befriending and strategizing with other women, whatever you can come up with will be not only helpful but necessary.
Good luck.
For the record, I was a chemistry major my first year in school, and worked in a chemical engineering co-op job exactly one summer. It was awkward; I worked for a major company's small R&D facility, and I was very very young and didn't even recognize most of the stupid comments for what they were until years later - there was some kind of sensitivity workshop that even prompted some of my older coworkers to apologize to me. But the culture there was much, much harder for a female than in my later work as a computer science major / programmer (although even working for arguably the World's Largest Computer Company in the early 1990's, I got awkward, "innocent" comments that I didn't know how to deal with). So I kind of know what you mean. Good luck.
The revolution is still going on. Sorry you're having to do some of the heavy lifting at this late date.
Also: this represents arguably one of the *only* good things about getting older.
posted by amtho at 1:42 PM on November 3, 2009
Also -- to the other commenters -- it sounds like, for whatever reason, hostile responses aren't going to work here. She wants to get along with these folks.
I do think it's possible to make a little tiny bit of progress without alienating anyone, but it won't be quick. It might take the form of a carefully-rehearsed, well-played conversation with a few selected individuals, or a joking comment (maybe about suing) that only disarms some people.
The thing is, by commenting on your appearance, or talking about their personal relationships, they're forcing you into the role of "girl" rather than "professional", and that can make your brain just...stop. There doesn't seem to be a way around it, or through it gracefully.
But don't _let_ your brain stop. You're smart, and it's not fair that you have to divert your attention to dealing with this, but at least you can. Other women without your intellectual resources are even more stuck, so be grateful for your intelligence and education. Maybe you can change the subject, maybe you can leave, maybe you can address this head on, and by gosh it's going to just get exhausting sometimes and sometimes there's nothing you can do. So keeping a log, befriending and strategizing with other women, whatever you can come up with will be not only helpful but necessary.
Good luck.
For the record, I was a chemistry major my first year in school, and worked in a chemical engineering co-op job exactly one summer. It was awkward; I worked for a major company's small R&D facility, and I was very very young and didn't even recognize most of the stupid comments for what they were until years later - there was some kind of sensitivity workshop that even prompted some of my older coworkers to apologize to me. But the culture there was much, much harder for a female than in my later work as a computer science major / programmer (although even working for arguably the World's Largest Computer Company in the early 1990's, I got awkward, "innocent" comments that I didn't know how to deal with). So I kind of know what you mean. Good luck.
The revolution is still going on. Sorry you're having to do some of the heavy lifting at this late date.
Also: this represents arguably one of the *only* good things about getting older.
posted by amtho at 1:42 PM on November 3, 2009
QuantumMeruit's comment is brilliant. If you can collect anonymous information from your female co-workers, bring it to the attention of a senior employee or other lawyer, maybe that person could lead an effort to bring some kind of sensitivity training to the company.
posted by amtho at 1:45 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 1:45 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm glad you've asked this!
I spent a lot of time trying to figure this out. If you are at all young and attractive - men will make comments. It is how you respond that makes the difference.
Some Background:
When men make inappropriate comments like you've described, they are both using and breaking the unspoken Social Contract civilized society relies upon.
If you are rude - you are a bitch.
If you smile/giggle and then attempt to blow it off - you've given the signal you are a pushover, or might approve of their behavior, etc. After this reaction they probably won't stop because they've identified a weak spot they might exploit at some time in the future. Sucks.
My solution? Cultivate an air of deaf/dumbness. Totally ignore the overture, change the topic back to the subject at hand, walk away if your exchange has been fulfilled - whatever. JUST COMPLETELY IGNORE THE COMMENT.
Practice. Become the master of deflecting/ignoring any suggestion of attention towards your looks or (in truth) sexuality.
Look at it this way: When associates, strangers, or colleagues reference your looks - they are often referring to your sexuality and invading your intimate privacy. They are taking uninvited (verbal and imaginative) liberties into your personal space.
Any direct confrontation might result in an acknowledgment and validation of their infringement of your personal (inner) space. Don't risk this further complication of the communication and "power -exchange" if at all possible. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
This question is about politics, deal with it politically - ignore, ignore, ignore.
----
This takes practice + trial and error. Find the exact demeanor that works for you. You'll make mistakes, so don't despair if someone breaks through the veneer you've been cultivating - learn from those moments.
----
If someone is super forward, my step-mother once counseled playing totally innocent and telling the interloper that you, "totally like them, and are flattered - but that your job/boyfriend/values just won't permit you to return their affections." Fair enough. I'd opt for a stronger response if someone was vulgar or touchy - but that's me. On the political office spectrum, however, my step-mom's advice is better.
------
Hope this helps - good luck.
posted by jbenben at 1:45 PM on November 3, 2009 [4 favorites]
I spent a lot of time trying to figure this out. If you are at all young and attractive - men will make comments. It is how you respond that makes the difference.
Some Background:
When men make inappropriate comments like you've described, they are both using and breaking the unspoken Social Contract civilized society relies upon.
If you are rude - you are a bitch.
If you smile/giggle and then attempt to blow it off - you've given the signal you are a pushover, or might approve of their behavior, etc. After this reaction they probably won't stop because they've identified a weak spot they might exploit at some time in the future. Sucks.
My solution? Cultivate an air of deaf/dumbness. Totally ignore the overture, change the topic back to the subject at hand, walk away if your exchange has been fulfilled - whatever. JUST COMPLETELY IGNORE THE COMMENT.
Practice. Become the master of deflecting/ignoring any suggestion of attention towards your looks or (in truth) sexuality.
Look at it this way: When associates, strangers, or colleagues reference your looks - they are often referring to your sexuality and invading your intimate privacy. They are taking uninvited (verbal and imaginative) liberties into your personal space.
Any direct confrontation might result in an acknowledgment and validation of their infringement of your personal (inner) space. Don't risk this further complication of the communication and "power -exchange" if at all possible. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
This question is about politics, deal with it politically - ignore, ignore, ignore.
----
This takes practice + trial and error. Find the exact demeanor that works for you. You'll make mistakes, so don't despair if someone breaks through the veneer you've been cultivating - learn from those moments.
----
If someone is super forward, my step-mother once counseled playing totally innocent and telling the interloper that you, "totally like them, and are flattered - but that your job/boyfriend/values just won't permit you to return their affections." Fair enough. I'd opt for a stronger response if someone was vulgar or touchy - but that's me. On the political office spectrum, however, my step-mom's advice is better.
------
Hope this helps - good luck.
posted by jbenben at 1:45 PM on November 3, 2009 [4 favorites]
I understand your reluctance to make any complaints official. The results of harassment complaints are not all sunshine and roses. It is a decision that you can only make for yourself.
I think you need to embrace your reputation as a ball-buster. You can be someone they think is a bitch, but be someone they respect and can rely on. You don't have to be miserable to be around ... you can be funny and be a bitch ... just don't let them get away with anything. Make them glad you are on their team and not at the other side of the table.
posted by Gor-ella at 1:51 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think you need to embrace your reputation as a ball-buster. You can be someone they think is a bitch, but be someone they respect and can rely on. You don't have to be miserable to be around ... you can be funny and be a bitch ... just don't let them get away with anything. Make them glad you are on their team and not at the other side of the table.
posted by Gor-ella at 1:51 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sounds like your company needs a cleaning out. If you have many 60-65+ year-old male employees this is not a super-uncommon problem, but it needs to be dealt with. You really need not go this alone and you should get the help of fellow female employees. Recently got rid of a 75-year-old in my office who came from an era of leering, shoulder massages, and inappropriate comments. Some of his biggest defenders were women in the office (of all ages) who didn't care that the behavior was illegal 'cuz," It's just John; he's harmless." You'll feel better about the process, after the fact, if you were part of a united front of at least two people. Nevertheless, if you have to go solo...do it.
posted by teg4rvn at 1:51 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by teg4rvn at 1:51 PM on November 3, 2009
I'm sorry, it sucks badly, but there probably isn't much you can do other than breathe deeply and remember it's not about you.
I think this attitude contributes to the problem. If no one complains, there is no reason for them to stop. They need to stop. It's everyone's responsibility to contribute to the solution. Please don't try to "toughen yourself up." Please report this.
I just want to note that it's very disheartening to me to hear a story like this coming from a lawyer who presumably knows what her legal recourse is.
posted by purpletangerine at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2009 [3 favorites]
I think this attitude contributes to the problem. If no one complains, there is no reason for them to stop. They need to stop. It's everyone's responsibility to contribute to the solution. Please don't try to "toughen yourself up." Please report this.
I just want to note that it's very disheartening to me to hear a story like this coming from a lawyer who presumably knows what her legal recourse is.
posted by purpletangerine at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2009 [3 favorites]
If you really, really don't want to get into fighting this or reporting to HR or whatever, then why not take the tactic of constantly reminding everyone that they're there to work, not tell stories or make comments? It doesn't matter WHAT the stories or comments are: gabbing on the job is wasting company time and money. Anytime anybody says anything you don't like, state flatly that you need to get to back work. Kick them out of your office or away from your desk. Repeat the same phrases over and over, such as, "Sorry, but I've got too much work to do right now." Or, meaner, if you want, "Sorry, but I can't waste the company's time discussing this." If anybody tries to engage you further, just repeat, with no variation.
posted by JanetLand at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by JanetLand at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2009
Immediately after each such comment, very calmly and even "sweetly" direct the guy talking to take out a piece of paper.
Or hand a piece of paper to him.
Then have him write down, word for word, what he just said.
Then ask him to date it, and sign it.
If he won't do this, cheerfully volunteer to do this for him.
And do just that.
While he's sitting right there, write down what he wrote, and present it for his acknowledgment and signature. Don't do this playfully, or as a pretend threat. Do it calmly, blandly-- even cheerfully-- and with insistence and seriousness.
Get the signature right then, or make him sweat bullets over not signing-- right then.
That habit should end this difficulty fairly quickly.
If you want to ratchet things up even higher, on those occasions when the guy won't sign... take another piece of paper, write "At X time, I saw X refuse to sign," and pull someone else into the room in order to present that person with your second affidavit. Obviously, the second person must be presented this affidavit right in front of the first person.
You won't necessarily be liked... but you will be very, very respected.
And feared.
Note: The bland, "cheerful" demeanor is crucial to making this work.
For that extra little twist, you can also declare brightly, with a laugh, that the great thing about suing a company is that while, sometimes, you might win only a couple hundred thousand... other times, you can score millions. This is your cue to smile happily.
posted by darth_tedious at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2009 [17 favorites]
Or hand a piece of paper to him.
Then have him write down, word for word, what he just said.
Then ask him to date it, and sign it.
If he won't do this, cheerfully volunteer to do this for him.
And do just that.
While he's sitting right there, write down what he wrote, and present it for his acknowledgment and signature. Don't do this playfully, or as a pretend threat. Do it calmly, blandly-- even cheerfully-- and with insistence and seriousness.
Get the signature right then, or make him sweat bullets over not signing-- right then.
That habit should end this difficulty fairly quickly.
If you want to ratchet things up even higher, on those occasions when the guy won't sign... take another piece of paper, write "At X time, I saw X refuse to sign," and pull someone else into the room in order to present that person with your second affidavit. Obviously, the second person must be presented this affidavit right in front of the first person.
You won't necessarily be liked... but you will be very, very respected.
And feared.
Note: The bland, "cheerful" demeanor is crucial to making this work.
For that extra little twist, you can also declare brightly, with a laugh, that the great thing about suing a company is that while, sometimes, you might win only a couple hundred thousand... other times, you can score millions. This is your cue to smile happily.
posted by darth_tedious at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2009 [17 favorites]
I've been in a similar situation myself, and I don't agree that pushing back with smart-arse comments like you're one of the lads will help. A lot of guys who sexually harass will keep going and keep going until you bite back - it's playground stuff. So don't bite.
My strategy was to be very assertive about pulling conversations back to where I wanted it - ie, about work. I had to learn to interrupt, and let go of all good listening habits, I never ever talked to those guys about anything other than work, and once they realised that (and it took months), they backed off.
For example:
"So, this 26 yo hottie that I picked up on the weekend, boy was she..."
"Actually, Joe, I'm here to talk about the contract for X job, why hasn't Y been done?"
or
"nice legs, do they go all the way up?"
"This is the documentation for the X job, I need you to complete X and Y by next week, is that going to be a problem?"
Using a question to interrupt and cut the crap also forces the other person to respond to that question rather than carrying on.
posted by girlgenius at 1:57 PM on November 3, 2009 [12 favorites]
My strategy was to be very assertive about pulling conversations back to where I wanted it - ie, about work. I had to learn to interrupt, and let go of all good listening habits, I never ever talked to those guys about anything other than work, and once they realised that (and it took months), they backed off.
For example:
"So, this 26 yo hottie that I picked up on the weekend, boy was she..."
"Actually, Joe, I'm here to talk about the contract for X job, why hasn't Y been done?"
or
"nice legs, do they go all the way up?"
"This is the documentation for the X job, I need you to complete X and Y by next week, is that going to be a problem?"
Using a question to interrupt and cut the crap also forces the other person to respond to that question rather than carrying on.
posted by girlgenius at 1:57 PM on November 3, 2009 [12 favorites]
On further reflection it occurs to me, if you've been laughing this off, they may not have been getting the message that their behavior/comments are unwelcome. You may think you're projecting displeasure, and they may think you are flattered. A warning might be appropriate, or at least a straight up expression of disapproval. Some good suggestions were mentioned upthread.
If you've made it clear that those comments are not only unappreciated but also offensive, then you are certainly free (and I would argue obligated) to report them.
Since you mentioned being worried about ramifications, I would not flat out say "I could report you for that!" Something more along the lines of "I'd appreciate you not speaking to me about this" or what have you.
posted by purpletangerine at 1:58 PM on November 3, 2009
If you've made it clear that those comments are not only unappreciated but also offensive, then you are certainly free (and I would argue obligated) to report them.
Since you mentioned being worried about ramifications, I would not flat out say "I could report you for that!" Something more along the lines of "I'd appreciate you not speaking to me about this" or what have you.
posted by purpletangerine at 1:58 PM on November 3, 2009
I really think that you need to leave this company. In my experience, this kind of culture permeates from the top down in an organisation. You can take the matter up with HR but I guarantee you that it won't end well.
My wife was in a similar situation - not sexual harrasment but in a situation where she found illegal behaviour occuring. She made sure that everyone knew about it - hell, it was even reported in the local press - and it all came to nothing. In the end, a few *minor* changes were made, and the same stuff still goes on. By the way, she lost her job. Yes, she was compensated, but it was NOT worth all the emotional pain and heartache. And yes, she was 100% right (like you are).
If you really *can't* leave for whatever reason, don't file complaints. Handle it yourself. Shut down any rambling sexual conquest comments. Don't use profanity, as has been suggested above. That is puerile and disgusting. A quick, lighthearted "Oh Bob, that is too much information!" and then change the subject. If he persists, then you need to say something along the lines of "I really don't see what this has to do with what we're discussing". If *that* doesn't help, "Sorry but I have work to do. When you're ready to discuss (whatever), come let me know and we'll discuss it", turn on your heels, and walk away. There are no circumstances under which it is appropriate to discuss your sexual conquests in the workplace.
Compliments are a little harder to deal with. It all depends on the tone of the compliment. If you have just changed your hair, and the comment is along the lines of "You hair really suits you!" accept it for what it is. Acknowledge it, say thanks if you want, smile, whatever. But if the comment is lecherous, I think you are best to ignore it. I think that you gain little benefit if you "fight back" as it were. These people are bullies, they want you to react (whether the reaction is an embarrassed laugh, or "f**k off!!", they get off on that). By totally ignoring them, the "compliments" will soon stop.
Best of luck.
posted by humpy at 2:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
My wife was in a similar situation - not sexual harrasment but in a situation where she found illegal behaviour occuring. She made sure that everyone knew about it - hell, it was even reported in the local press - and it all came to nothing. In the end, a few *minor* changes were made, and the same stuff still goes on. By the way, she lost her job. Yes, she was compensated, but it was NOT worth all the emotional pain and heartache. And yes, she was 100% right (like you are).
If you really *can't* leave for whatever reason, don't file complaints. Handle it yourself. Shut down any rambling sexual conquest comments. Don't use profanity, as has been suggested above. That is puerile and disgusting. A quick, lighthearted "Oh Bob, that is too much information!" and then change the subject. If he persists, then you need to say something along the lines of "I really don't see what this has to do with what we're discussing". If *that* doesn't help, "Sorry but I have work to do. When you're ready to discuss (whatever), come let me know and we'll discuss it", turn on your heels, and walk away. There are no circumstances under which it is appropriate to discuss your sexual conquests in the workplace.
Compliments are a little harder to deal with. It all depends on the tone of the compliment. If you have just changed your hair, and the comment is along the lines of "You hair really suits you!" accept it for what it is. Acknowledge it, say thanks if you want, smile, whatever. But if the comment is lecherous, I think you are best to ignore it. I think that you gain little benefit if you "fight back" as it were. These people are bullies, they want you to react (whether the reaction is an embarrassed laugh, or "f**k off!!", they get off on that). By totally ignoring them, the "compliments" will soon stop.
Best of luck.
posted by humpy at 2:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
I love netbros business card idea. "Here's the name and number of a young women I'd like to set you up with. She's single, hot, loves older men and is, um, 'ambitious' " See, you do have a sense of humor.
Also all for the "eeewe, would you talk like that around your daughter/sister/wife?"
Can you move your work area closer to the folks who treat you decently?
Calling someone "humorless" is often a calculated way of neutralizing their ability to defend themselves against harassment of this kind. It's a manipulative way of making sure the onus is on you to tolerate mistreatment and off the person doing the harassing. Keep that in mind when you worry about being seen as "too serious." They're counting on that.
And yes, do keep a detailed and explicit log off who said and did what. You might not want to take action now, but you may change your mind later - especially if the harassment escalates. It might also come in handy if another woman files a complaint and you decide you want to corroborate her claim.
Best of Luck. So sorry you have to deal with this.
posted by space_cookie at 2:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Also all for the "eeewe, would you talk like that around your daughter/sister/wife?"
Can you move your work area closer to the folks who treat you decently?
Calling someone "humorless" is often a calculated way of neutralizing their ability to defend themselves against harassment of this kind. It's a manipulative way of making sure the onus is on you to tolerate mistreatment and off the person doing the harassing. Keep that in mind when you worry about being seen as "too serious." They're counting on that.
And yes, do keep a detailed and explicit log off who said and did what. You might not want to take action now, but you may change your mind later - especially if the harassment escalates. It might also come in handy if another woman files a complaint and you decide you want to corroborate her claim.
Best of Luck. So sorry you have to deal with this.
posted by space_cookie at 2:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Maybe- "I'm sorry, what was that?" If they repeat it, "One more time, I'm sorry?" I doubt they would repeat it again, but if they do, maybe just look confused and continue on your way.
posted by zoey08 at 2:11 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by zoey08 at 2:11 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
In order not to be treated like "the other" (at best) or a sex object (at worst) by sexist men, I have found some success with the following. Yes it's selling out. Yes it's shocking. No you shouldn't have to do it. Works for me though.
1. No skirts
2. No long hair unless it's tied back.
3. No girly looking anything, no feminine earrings.
4. When dealing with the guys, use their body language. Occupy space. Shoulders back. Sit with your legs apart. Act confident, be loud, interrupt people if necessary to get your point across.
5. When people make offensive comments, strike right back with some equally offensive comment.
6. If you can't muster an offensive rejoinder or you think you really can't get away with it, go with cheery plain speaking, matter of fact, straight out in front of everybody. "Knock it off slagging off Susan, she can do XYZ better than anyone here" and then get right on with the matter at hand.
In my experience, working class guys are often accustomed to resolving conflicts with what can be surprisingly harsh banter, and meeting them on these terms works well. Trying to have Serious Private Conversations or to get into analysis of the abstract issues involved is not a well respected way to go about it. Hilarious ad hominem attacks are fine, in fact being funny or rude is far more important than being in any way logically accurate. Don't ever let on that you're upset or offended; absolutely let on if you are angry. But once you're done being angry, get over it and act like it didn't happen.
P.S. use this advice with care!
posted by emilyw at 2:19 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
1. No skirts
2. No long hair unless it's tied back.
3. No girly looking anything, no feminine earrings.
4. When dealing with the guys, use their body language. Occupy space. Shoulders back. Sit with your legs apart. Act confident, be loud, interrupt people if necessary to get your point across.
5. When people make offensive comments, strike right back with some equally offensive comment.
6. If you can't muster an offensive rejoinder or you think you really can't get away with it, go with cheery plain speaking, matter of fact, straight out in front of everybody. "Knock it off slagging off Susan, she can do XYZ better than anyone here" and then get right on with the matter at hand.
In my experience, working class guys are often accustomed to resolving conflicts with what can be surprisingly harsh banter, and meeting them on these terms works well. Trying to have Serious Private Conversations or to get into analysis of the abstract issues involved is not a well respected way to go about it. Hilarious ad hominem attacks are fine, in fact being funny or rude is far more important than being in any way logically accurate. Don't ever let on that you're upset or offended; absolutely let on if you are angry. But once you're done being angry, get over it and act like it didn't happen.
P.S. use this advice with care!
posted by emilyw at 2:19 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
As a lawyer, you kind of have a professional responsibility to report this kind of behavior if it happens to be other lawyers doing it(wasn't 100% clear from the post). Maybe that's just my naive law student idea, but that's what I've been told repeatedly by various respected attorneys, and the ABA.
As a woman, you should not have to put up with this behavior. You may want to at least talk to a female HR rep about this. I'm sure they are violating all types of corporate policies. Whether HR allows it is another story, but it might help to get a feel for the climate.
posted by ishotjr at 2:24 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
As a woman, you should not have to put up with this behavior. You may want to at least talk to a female HR rep about this. I'm sure they are violating all types of corporate policies. Whether HR allows it is another story, but it might help to get a feel for the climate.
posted by ishotjr at 2:24 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
Given that you've decided against complaining, I'd be focusing every spare moment at finding a job at another company - in another industry if necessary. Seriously, you don't need this.
Then, if there are any exit interviews with HR, I'd let them know exactly why they just lost a highly talented and productive young attorney. Hiring employees, in particular educated ones, is more expensive than retaining them. Get enough exit interviews citing a sexually-charged and toxic workplace as the reason for leaving and eliminating that behaviour will become a business decision like any other.
posted by Kurichina at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Then, if there are any exit interviews with HR, I'd let them know exactly why they just lost a highly talented and productive young attorney. Hiring employees, in particular educated ones, is more expensive than retaining them. Get enough exit interviews citing a sexually-charged and toxic workplace as the reason for leaving and eliminating that behaviour will become a business decision like any other.
posted by Kurichina at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
First off, ignore anyone who is telling you trade insults with these guys. Maybe they need to read the question again, like the part where you say that these men are technically higher up in the company than you.
What I personally would do now is get together some of the women, approach one of the senior attorneys that you trust and have this conversation with him, "Comments are being made that could be construed as creating an uncomfortable workplace for women in this firm, and we are concerned that our firm could be liable in a potential lawsuit. How do we address this? Do we have someone that could come in and run sensitivity training? Should we go to HR?"
This shows that the women are in agreement about the problem, that you are concerned FOR the company, as a member OF the company, and also strongly implies that you are not going to just let this go.
I'm sad to say that, despite your own legal training, I doubt you will do this. Part of this is your youth and relative inexperience making you fearful of calling attention to yourself. So the next best thing is to approach another woman, more senior in your company, with your concerns--again, voicing this as a problem that needs to be dealt with for the benefit of the company--and let her take the ball.
Should nothing come of it, you will then have to go to HR, or, if unwilling to do that much, seek another position with a different company, since you are not willing to be part of the solution there yourself.
I'm sorry you are learning this lesson so young. It sucks to be in your position. But sometimes you have to pick your battles. I think this one is worth fighting for; if you don't, you might want to look into other employment opportunities.
posted by misha at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
What I personally would do now is get together some of the women, approach one of the senior attorneys that you trust and have this conversation with him, "Comments are being made that could be construed as creating an uncomfortable workplace for women in this firm, and we are concerned that our firm could be liable in a potential lawsuit. How do we address this? Do we have someone that could come in and run sensitivity training? Should we go to HR?"
This shows that the women are in agreement about the problem, that you are concerned FOR the company, as a member OF the company, and also strongly implies that you are not going to just let this go.
I'm sad to say that, despite your own legal training, I doubt you will do this. Part of this is your youth and relative inexperience making you fearful of calling attention to yourself. So the next best thing is to approach another woman, more senior in your company, with your concerns--again, voicing this as a problem that needs to be dealt with for the benefit of the company--and let her take the ball.
Should nothing come of it, you will then have to go to HR, or, if unwilling to do that much, seek another position with a different company, since you are not willing to be part of the solution there yourself.
I'm sorry you are learning this lesson so young. It sucks to be in your position. But sometimes you have to pick your battles. I think this one is worth fighting for; if you don't, you might want to look into other employment opportunities.
posted by misha at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
You're absolutely not overreacting. The fact that you are questioning yourself is part and parcel of the abusiveness of the situation. Yes, I said ABUSE. It will drive you insane; I have seen this firsthand with someone very close to me. Your self-esteem will erode away every time you "suck it up" and don't confront these assholes. Absolutely anything is better than just enduring this.
You have two options:
1) You get serious. You confront them. You go to HR. You pull out all the stops until this behavior entirely ceases. This is going to alienate them, but your sanity is worth it.
2) You leave.
Your self-esteem is worth much more than this job. It's worth more than your career. You should never let anything trample on it, because it takes longer to get that back than another paycheck.
P.S. This is ABUSE. ABUSE ABUSE ABUSE. Keeping that in mind will give you the strength to do what you need to do.
posted by desjardins at 2:30 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
You have two options:
1) You get serious. You confront them. You go to HR. You pull out all the stops until this behavior entirely ceases. This is going to alienate them, but your sanity is worth it.
2) You leave.
Your self-esteem is worth much more than this job. It's worth more than your career. You should never let anything trample on it, because it takes longer to get that back than another paycheck.
P.S. This is ABUSE. ABUSE ABUSE ABUSE. Keeping that in mind will give you the strength to do what you need to do.
posted by desjardins at 2:30 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
I have never regretted speaking up about sexual and gender-based harassment, but it is not an easy process and it can leave a miasma around your reputation. She can't work it out with the individuals. She's a complainer. She can't take a joke. She isn't comfortable in a man's world. She is the reason X isn't here any more; everyone else "got" him, and just worked with/around him. Now we have to do these bullshit things, and it's her fault. She wanted to be treated like one of the guys, and once she was, she couldn't take it. If he's so bad, why is she the only one complaining? He's just from the old school - that's the way things are, and it's not fair to expect him to change. Look out Boys, who is she going to complain about next? I can't work with her; she might come after me next. She's lawsuit-happy, and a risk therefore.
I have found that the professional ignore and redirect to work works best with people I don't know well, but when that doesn't work, I have said, "Look, I know your intentions are to be friendly and collegial, but you make me uncomfortable when you talk about who you date/the length of my skirt/make lewd jokes. It makes me feel like you don't respect me as a coworker. I know this isn't what you intend, but I wish you'd wouldn't tell me about those things. I'm more than happy to talk about work and any number of things (I'll give examples here)."
If dealing with it directly doesn't work for you for what ever reason, then you have to decide if you can live with it, if you need to find another job (I've explained in exit interviews exactly why I'm leaving, and why I chose not file a formal complaint - because of office culture, special pony status of the offender, and/or the fact that I'd seen similar complaints go nowhere), or if complaining is worth any hit you yourself will take. There's always a little hit, I'm sorry to say, and sometimes a bigger one.
The process of filing the complaint or even finding an advocate is also not necessarily an easy one. I've had confidential statements get back to the party in question, leading to a confrontation I was not ready for and one in which I was instantly on the defensive and had to soothe his feelings to get him to a place and apologize for backstabbing to where I could broach my issues with him. I've had to defend myself when people in my own management tree who should have known better called me a liar when the response to our complaint from the partnered groups came back in. If I didn't have convincing proof that I was right and the real liars were our male peers in the partnered group (and if I didn't have a few male peers on my team to back me up, honestly), my career path would have been seriously hurt.
Still, as painful as those situations (and others) were, I'm glad I filed the reports. They made life easier for other women at those companies, and opened some men's eyes a bit. There was a larger net victory. But I'd chosen to not file other complaints because I knew (based on my experience with the company's inner mechanisms) that nothing would be solved other than hurting me or my career.
posted by julen at 2:32 PM on November 3, 2009 [6 favorites]
I have found that the professional ignore and redirect to work works best with people I don't know well, but when that doesn't work, I have said, "Look, I know your intentions are to be friendly and collegial, but you make me uncomfortable when you talk about who you date/the length of my skirt/make lewd jokes. It makes me feel like you don't respect me as a coworker. I know this isn't what you intend, but I wish you'd wouldn't tell me about those things. I'm more than happy to talk about work and any number of things (I'll give examples here)."
If dealing with it directly doesn't work for you for what ever reason, then you have to decide if you can live with it, if you need to find another job (I've explained in exit interviews exactly why I'm leaving, and why I chose not file a formal complaint - because of office culture, special pony status of the offender, and/or the fact that I'd seen similar complaints go nowhere), or if complaining is worth any hit you yourself will take. There's always a little hit, I'm sorry to say, and sometimes a bigger one.
The process of filing the complaint or even finding an advocate is also not necessarily an easy one. I've had confidential statements get back to the party in question, leading to a confrontation I was not ready for and one in which I was instantly on the defensive and had to soothe his feelings to get him to a place and apologize for backstabbing to where I could broach my issues with him. I've had to defend myself when people in my own management tree who should have known better called me a liar when the response to our complaint from the partnered groups came back in. If I didn't have convincing proof that I was right and the real liars were our male peers in the partnered group (and if I didn't have a few male peers on my team to back me up, honestly), my career path would have been seriously hurt.
Still, as painful as those situations (and others) were, I'm glad I filed the reports. They made life easier for other women at those companies, and opened some men's eyes a bit. There was a larger net victory. But I'd chosen to not file other complaints because I knew (based on my experience with the company's inner mechanisms) that nothing would be solved other than hurting me or my career.
posted by julen at 2:32 PM on November 3, 2009 [6 favorites]
Carly Fiorina talked about how she had to attend meetings at strip clubs, and how she just had to tough it out.
If she had given up rather than toughing it out, she wouldn't have gone on to nearly ruin Hewlett-Packard. Sometimes, giving up is the best answer for everyone.
I'm not saying you should give up, anonymous, not at all, just saying this is a poor example.
posted by kindall at 2:42 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
If she had given up rather than toughing it out, she wouldn't have gone on to nearly ruin Hewlett-Packard. Sometimes, giving up is the best answer for everyone.
I'm not saying you should give up, anonymous, not at all, just saying this is a poor example.
posted by kindall at 2:42 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
I find that I am not taken as seriously as the male attorneys with the same amount of experience because of the way I am treated by these men. Is there any way to make them take me seriously?
I think you have your cause and effect wrong. You are being treated this way BECAUSE they do not take you seriously. And if this has any effect on the way others perceive you, it is because of the way you react - it sounds like your current reaction is to roll over and play dead. What's to take seriously about a lawyer who does that?
posted by jacalata at 2:43 PM on November 3, 2009 [3 favorites]
I think you have your cause and effect wrong. You are being treated this way BECAUSE they do not take you seriously. And if this has any effect on the way others perceive you, it is because of the way you react - it sounds like your current reaction is to roll over and play dead. What's to take seriously about a lawyer who does that?
posted by jacalata at 2:43 PM on November 3, 2009 [3 favorites]
jacalata has it EXACTLY CORRECT.
To follow-up on my previous answer... the first place I seriously encountered this situation myself was fresh out of college in a prominent first market media newsroom.
Because newsrooms are open spaces, I felt my every action/reaction was being viewed and judged - it was. And I was unprepared to deal. Again and again, all I could understand was that I was doing it wrong.
Furthermore, as an attractive young woman, this was a scenario I dealt with all the time. Workplace interactions were only primary because that was were I spent most of my waking hours. The problematic dynamic was inherent to almost every male/female social exchange I experienced.
Again.... ignore, ignore, ignore. Cultivate a demeanor that does not reward forays into your personal emotional or physical space. A curt smile is not a deterrent - by the offender, this is viewed as a invitation to continue!
Specific harassment by a co-worker or superior that is appropriately rebuffed is therefore addressable by HR. Endemic dynamic dysfunction can usually be resolved by one of the participants - in this case the OP. Failing that, again, the former (HR) solution applies.
posted by jbenben at 3:10 PM on November 3, 2009
To follow-up on my previous answer... the first place I seriously encountered this situation myself was fresh out of college in a prominent first market media newsroom.
Because newsrooms are open spaces, I felt my every action/reaction was being viewed and judged - it was. And I was unprepared to deal. Again and again, all I could understand was that I was doing it wrong.
Furthermore, as an attractive young woman, this was a scenario I dealt with all the time. Workplace interactions were only primary because that was were I spent most of my waking hours. The problematic dynamic was inherent to almost every male/female social exchange I experienced.
Again.... ignore, ignore, ignore. Cultivate a demeanor that does not reward forays into your personal emotional or physical space. A curt smile is not a deterrent - by the offender, this is viewed as a invitation to continue!
Specific harassment by a co-worker or superior that is appropriately rebuffed is therefore addressable by HR. Endemic dynamic dysfunction can usually be resolved by one of the participants - in this case the OP. Failing that, again, the former (HR) solution applies.
posted by jbenben at 3:10 PM on November 3, 2009
I wouldn't have been secure enough to do this when I was 25, but on the rare occasion those situations still arise it's now easy for me to say (without anger but with some contempt) "You're a fucking pig and you're going to get your company sued into bankruptcy." And then drop it like the conversation never happened.
Also- no skirts. No jewelry. Nothing particularly girly. Sorry. You don't get to be attractive til you're older and more established. No, this is not okay but it's been the case nearly every place I've been, even the more progressive ones.
And in all honesty, even I don't take girly collegues as seriously as less girly ones, and I'm a woman. I do my best not to but subconsciously there it is.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:22 PM on November 3, 2009
Also- no skirts. No jewelry. Nothing particularly girly. Sorry. You don't get to be attractive til you're older and more established. No, this is not okay but it's been the case nearly every place I've been, even the more progressive ones.
And in all honesty, even I don't take girly collegues as seriously as less girly ones, and I'm a woman. I do my best not to but subconsciously there it is.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:22 PM on November 3, 2009
Another idea might be to pull one of the least bad offenders aside and explain your problem and ask his advice. You'd know better than we whether or not that's really feasible.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:24 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by small_ruminant at 3:24 PM on November 3, 2009
I have found that the professional ignore and redirect to work works best with people I don't know well, but when that doesn't work, I have said, "Look, I know your intentions are to be friendly and collegial, but you make me uncomfortable when you talk about who you date/the length of my skirt/make lewd jokes. It makes me feel like you don't respect me as a coworker. I know this isn't what you intend, but I wish you'd wouldn't tell me about those things. I'm more than happy to talk about work and any number of things (I'll give examples here)."
This.
If you're not witty enough to one-up them as others have suggested, you can certainly be forthright. Don't crack a smile, don't laugh apologetically to lighten the tension afterwards, and don't feel like you have to apologize. The ball's in their court. Use silence and that tension as your weapon.
posted by soviet sleepover at 3:55 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
This.
If you're not witty enough to one-up them as others have suggested, you can certainly be forthright. Don't crack a smile, don't laugh apologetically to lighten the tension afterwards, and don't feel like you have to apologize. The ball's in their court. Use silence and that tension as your weapon.
posted by soviet sleepover at 3:55 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
The very best advice here is from girlgenius. Don't try snappy answers; don't fingerwag; above all don't smile or blush.
Allow a very brief pause, just long enough for the guy to realize he's made an ass of himself. Then raise an eyebrow and bring the conversation back around to the appropriate topic.
posted by tangerine at 4:32 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Allow a very brief pause, just long enough for the guy to realize he's made an ass of himself. Then raise an eyebrow and bring the conversation back around to the appropriate topic.
posted by tangerine at 4:32 PM on November 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
Give 'em The Glare. Tell them you don't want to hear it/that's not appropriate.
And file a complaint.
Look, we're told our whole lives that if you complain you're a bitch, you'll regret it, you're being a wuss, we should just suck it up, it's not that big a deal, they're just words, laugh it off, try to play their game, just do your job well and you'll be rewarded, stop wearing skirts, we're asking for it, at least they're looking, you'll ruin your career. And so we keep giving these boors power over our behavior.
posted by desuetude at 4:45 PM on November 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
And file a complaint.
Look, we're told our whole lives that if you complain you're a bitch, you'll regret it, you're being a wuss, we should just suck it up, it's not that big a deal, they're just words, laugh it off, try to play their game, just do your job well and you'll be rewarded, stop wearing skirts, we're asking for it, at least they're looking, you'll ruin your career. And so we keep giving these boors power over our behavior.
posted by desuetude at 4:45 PM on November 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
Just to add to my previous comment- if what is happening to you is illegal, or breaches workplace codes of conduct, you can and should complain through whatever channels your workplace has available. However, your complaints will bear more weight, and you will feel more empowered yourself, if you've done everything you can to deal with it yourself.
posted by girlgenius at 5:18 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by girlgenius at 5:18 PM on November 3, 2009
I used to work in a law firm and also remember the very similar environment in my first job out of college for a large bank. You are in a very tough situation and it would challenge anyone.
I do think what is happening to you is unlawful (though this is not legal advice I am offering), at least in the sense that what you are enduring sounds like a hostile work environment if not overt sexual harassment.
Here are my suggestions: 1) Is there someone who has your back, who is in fact senior? Or more than one? If so, confide in that person or those people. You are documenting the events you are experiencing and recruiting allies. 3) Next time this happens, be very nice but say that work needs to stay professional. And document every incident. 4) When you have documentation and allies, make a formal complaint to HR, on the understanding they are not going to put you in any position to face retaliation -- which is also actionable. Document that too.
I don't think you should change your hair, clothes, makeup, smile, or any other thing you do. Just take care of business.
I'd also suggest talking to some folks at your local bar association, especially those involved in workplace discrimination issues. It would be most ideal if you could make contact with a woman's bar association.
Best of luck. I am so sorry you are experiencing this treatment.
posted by bearwife at 5:41 PM on November 3, 2009
I do think what is happening to you is unlawful (though this is not legal advice I am offering), at least in the sense that what you are enduring sounds like a hostile work environment if not overt sexual harassment.
Here are my suggestions: 1) Is there someone who has your back, who is in fact senior? Or more than one? If so, confide in that person or those people. You are documenting the events you are experiencing and recruiting allies. 3) Next time this happens, be very nice but say that work needs to stay professional. And document every incident. 4) When you have documentation and allies, make a formal complaint to HR, on the understanding they are not going to put you in any position to face retaliation -- which is also actionable. Document that too.
I don't think you should change your hair, clothes, makeup, smile, or any other thing you do. Just take care of business.
I'd also suggest talking to some folks at your local bar association, especially those involved in workplace discrimination issues. It would be most ideal if you could make contact with a woman's bar association.
Best of luck. I am so sorry you are experiencing this treatment.
posted by bearwife at 5:41 PM on November 3, 2009
Then hold up the tape recorder and turn it on and say, "Could you speak toward the mic, please?" and explain you want the evidence for your lawsuit.
I think this is a bit more confrontational than you are looking for, but the core idea is good. Bring a tape recorder with you to any meeting, turn it on, and explain it as your note-keeping method.
posted by mikepop at 7:09 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think this is a bit more confrontational than you are looking for, but the core idea is good. Bring a tape recorder with you to any meeting, turn it on, and explain it as your note-keeping method.
posted by mikepop at 7:09 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one that thinks you should wear a very tiny microphone inside the lapel of your jacket, connected to a recorder, and put together a timestamped compilation of sexual harassment? This could be very useful if you are ever forced out or choose to resign over a highly toxic work environment.
posted by thewalrus at 7:33 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by thewalrus at 7:33 PM on November 3, 2009
"The Glare" in my experience gets the response "you need to be fucked".
"Just ignore it"? Women have been doing this for millenia....doesn't stop it.
Questions about your personal life? "That's really none of your business". Discussions about their sex lives? "This isn't the place for this kind of talk". Comments about your looks? "The only people who have the right to say this are my SO, family and friends, none of which applies to you".
Nthing those who say go to HR and document the incidents.
posted by brujita at 8:49 PM on November 3, 2009
"Just ignore it"? Women have been doing this for millenia....doesn't stop it.
Questions about your personal life? "That's really none of your business". Discussions about their sex lives? "This isn't the place for this kind of talk". Comments about your looks? "The only people who have the right to say this are my SO, family and friends, none of which applies to you".
Nthing those who say go to HR and document the incidents.
posted by brujita at 8:49 PM on November 3, 2009
I have been in that space and finally made a complaint about bra-strap pinging, women getting scorecards rating attractiveness held up by older [invariably uglier] men when introduced to staff, being "hubba hubba'd" and whistled at in the corridors [WTF??? in a religious school in the late 1990s!] etc. Your story reminds us how hard the struggle has been, and continues to be for women.
It always feels like that formally complaining is, and SHOULD be, the right thing to do. But it is complicated and I get where you are coming from in not wanting to make waves in your first job. I found myself feeling even greater stress after complaining and that's not what we feminists want to hear of course. The level of internalised entitlement men like this feel is phenomenal. I had to listen to 'argh, this is political correctness gone too far' and 'you women want things to change overnight', 'but look at what you're wearing!' and 'gad, you women can't take a joke' or pouting about 'I suppose you don't even want me to hold the door open for you now' etc. And worst of all was the fear I had of not being liked, or of others being angry at me. After complaining these things actually happened. I was derided and bitched about - and not just by the men involved.
Somehow you have to feel, deeply, that you are entitled to respect. You have to move that way, talk that way, be that way in your work life. Don't doubt your right to an enjoyable career in a professional environment.
Unfortunately no laughing harassment off or other socially rescuing behaviours. Don't engage at all. Keep a log for your personal records and read over it to help rehearse ways to be firm, unflinching and consistent in these situations. Frame truthful statements in positive ways such as "I like to keep work and home life separate" - end of sentence. Don't make excuses, don't apologise for this. Leave a pause where it is obvious nothing else is coming. Then, talk/engage on topic work matters. If it's a conversation about their sex life, again, "I'd like to hear more about the project/work/task at hand" - no smiles.
My favourite scenes in the film "Fargo" show Margie dealing with unwanted sexualised behaviour by using these kind of forthright statements "I'd prefer it if you sat on that side of the table", a pause whilst the statement is digested and a kind, homely smile when the behaviour has changed.
posted by honey-barbara at 10:24 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
It always feels like that formally complaining is, and SHOULD be, the right thing to do. But it is complicated and I get where you are coming from in not wanting to make waves in your first job. I found myself feeling even greater stress after complaining and that's not what we feminists want to hear of course. The level of internalised entitlement men like this feel is phenomenal. I had to listen to 'argh, this is political correctness gone too far' and 'you women want things to change overnight', 'but look at what you're wearing!' and 'gad, you women can't take a joke' or pouting about 'I suppose you don't even want me to hold the door open for you now' etc. And worst of all was the fear I had of not being liked, or of others being angry at me. After complaining these things actually happened. I was derided and bitched about - and not just by the men involved.
Somehow you have to feel, deeply, that you are entitled to respect. You have to move that way, talk that way, be that way in your work life. Don't doubt your right to an enjoyable career in a professional environment.
Unfortunately no laughing harassment off or other socially rescuing behaviours. Don't engage at all. Keep a log for your personal records and read over it to help rehearse ways to be firm, unflinching and consistent in these situations. Frame truthful statements in positive ways such as "I like to keep work and home life separate" - end of sentence. Don't make excuses, don't apologise for this. Leave a pause where it is obvious nothing else is coming. Then, talk/engage on topic work matters. If it's a conversation about their sex life, again, "I'd like to hear more about the project/work/task at hand" - no smiles.
My favourite scenes in the film "Fargo" show Margie dealing with unwanted sexualised behaviour by using these kind of forthright statements "I'd prefer it if you sat on that side of the table", a pause whilst the statement is digested and a kind, homely smile when the behaviour has changed.
posted by honey-barbara at 10:24 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
Some advice and suggestions, some contradictory:
1. Get advice and aid from other women, especially other female lawyers. Look for meetups, professional women's networking groups, women's business clubs, etc. Chances are a lot of them will have dealt with this kind of thing themselves, and the older they are the worse it was, on the average.
2. "Crack". Next time one of them gives you some especially egregious shit in front of the others ... punch him, hard. Break his nose if possible. (If you've never punched anyone ever: it's actually not that difficult a thing to do. Ball your fist tight, keep your thumb on the outside, keep your hand straight so the force goes from your wrist to your knuckles.) Then storm off, and if you can, cry. Sexism cuts both ways. Not only was he "decked by a girl", he will be assumed (rightly) to have provoked the confrontation and thoroughly deserved his punch. The same culture that treats you as unworthy of respect comes with a contradictory urge to treat you as requiring physical protection. Punch him, and the others will take your side.
3. On that point, take self-defence classes. Taking crap from men comes at least partially from fear of men, and the more you can do to reduce the second, the more you can do to stand up to the first; including subconsciously.
4. You're not the only one, surely. You have your reasons to want to keep your head down and not kick up a fuss ... but so long as a fuss is kicked up, you don't have to do the kicking. Take some time to get to know the other women in the office. Casually broach the topic of how the men behave. Mention that you'd be ethically required to tell the truth in any depositions that the lawyer of a woman suing your firm were to ask for.
5. This is probably too Machiavellian and incidentally kind of cruel: pawn sacrifice. If you were to work towards the creation of a situation where some other woman, who has no loyalty to the firm (a temp, say) and nothing to lose by suing them, was to be sexually harassed, perhaps the problem could be resolved without directly involving you.
6. More of a knight than a pawn, but still a Machiavellian move - if you ever get the opportunity to have a more powerful woman come to your office for any reason, a higher-up from out of town for example ... make sure the path you take to the meeting room/coffee stand/whatever is through the BoyZone.
Best of luck.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
1. Get advice and aid from other women, especially other female lawyers. Look for meetups, professional women's networking groups, women's business clubs, etc. Chances are a lot of them will have dealt with this kind of thing themselves, and the older they are the worse it was, on the average.
2. "Crack". Next time one of them gives you some especially egregious shit in front of the others ... punch him, hard. Break his nose if possible. (If you've never punched anyone ever: it's actually not that difficult a thing to do. Ball your fist tight, keep your thumb on the outside, keep your hand straight so the force goes from your wrist to your knuckles.) Then storm off, and if you can, cry. Sexism cuts both ways. Not only was he "decked by a girl", he will be assumed (rightly) to have provoked the confrontation and thoroughly deserved his punch. The same culture that treats you as unworthy of respect comes with a contradictory urge to treat you as requiring physical protection. Punch him, and the others will take your side.
3. On that point, take self-defence classes. Taking crap from men comes at least partially from fear of men, and the more you can do to reduce the second, the more you can do to stand up to the first; including subconsciously.
4. You're not the only one, surely. You have your reasons to want to keep your head down and not kick up a fuss ... but so long as a fuss is kicked up, you don't have to do the kicking. Take some time to get to know the other women in the office. Casually broach the topic of how the men behave. Mention that you'd be ethically required to tell the truth in any depositions that the lawyer of a woman suing your firm were to ask for.
5. This is probably too Machiavellian and incidentally kind of cruel: pawn sacrifice. If you were to work towards the creation of a situation where some other woman, who has no loyalty to the firm (a temp, say) and nothing to lose by suing them, was to be sexually harassed, perhaps the problem could be resolved without directly involving you.
6. More of a knight than a pawn, but still a Machiavellian move - if you ever get the opportunity to have a more powerful woman come to your office for any reason, a higher-up from out of town for example ... make sure the path you take to the meeting room/coffee stand/whatever is through the BoyZone.
Best of luck.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:06 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
You shouldn't HAVE to do this, but if you DO dress and groom yourself more conservatively, you're less likely to get those comments. More conservative shoes, knee-length skirts, hair in a bun, glasses, etc. I speak from personal experience of experimenting with a lot of different looks to find the one that achieves the social response I desire.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:34 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by Jacqueline at 11:34 PM on November 3, 2009
I am still digesting aeschenkarnos's comment, but I have to strongly disagree with point #2. In my experience, it is far easier to get fired for (the threat) of violence in the workplace than it is to get fired for sexual harassment, and it's a bad thing to have lurking in your professional reputation outside of the fields of MMA and certain Self Defense Education lines.
posted by julen at 11:44 PM on November 3, 2009
posted by julen at 11:44 PM on November 3, 2009
julen In my experience, it is far easier to get fired for (the threat) of violence in the workplace than it is to get fired for sexual harassment, and it's a bad thing to have lurking in your professional reputation outside of the fields of MMA and certain Self Defense Education lines.
I suggest that that's a very gender-neutral, responsible, adult and equitable human resources management-approved view, Julen, which is exactly the problem at hand. She's not dealing with the enlightened here, she's dealing with a bunch of shaved apes. I submit that a punch in the nose or a knee in the crotch or the good old traditional slap across the face would be an effective response for the exact same reason that they're sexually harassing her in the first place. (A slap might be even better than a punch, actually: it's more generation-appropriate.)
Anyway, YMMV.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:54 AM on November 4, 2009
I suggest that that's a very gender-neutral, responsible, adult and equitable human resources management-approved view, Julen, which is exactly the problem at hand. She's not dealing with the enlightened here, she's dealing with a bunch of shaved apes. I submit that a punch in the nose or a knee in the crotch or the good old traditional slap across the face would be an effective response for the exact same reason that they're sexually harassing her in the first place. (A slap might be even better than a punch, actually: it's more generation-appropriate.)
Anyway, YMMV.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:54 AM on November 4, 2009
"Crack". Next time one of them gives you some especially egregious shit in front of the others ... punch him, hard. Break his nose if possible.
WTF? As I'm sure the OP knows full well, this is ridiculously bad advice. I think Netbros and Darth Tedious are bang on the money with their advice upthread.
posted by idiomatika at 2:35 AM on November 4, 2009
WTF? As I'm sure the OP knows full well, this is ridiculously bad advice. I think Netbros and Darth Tedious are bang on the money with their advice upthread.
posted by idiomatika at 2:35 AM on November 4, 2009
A lot of people have made excellent points.
However, a counterpoint to the people recommending changes to dress. I had to deal with sexual harassment a few years ago, and my conservative dress was part of it. "Hey hon, you look pretty sure of yourself dressed like that, need a man to take you down and loosen up?" "Wow, I keep imagining what you'd look like if you were in a cute, tight little skirt, why don't you get out of those pants, hon?" "Good thing you always wear flats, cause woo-boy, if you wore heels, I'd be all over you." "Why you always wear high collars?..." you get the picture.
Jerks will be jerks. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, "hatred") and gynē (γυνή, "woman". Not dress, makeup, how you walk, height, weight, accent - no, just "woman", because all it takes to be treated like that is to be a woman.
In my case, I complained about them to upper management and they were fired. Two of the jerks had been middle managers themselves, by the way. Any "reputation" I had gained for not having a sense of humor disappeared pretty quickly once the perpetrators were gone. But I can indeed understand your reluctance - in my case, I knew the upper management well and had agreed to work with their company precisely because they prioritized a respectful workplace. (I'd done occasional work for them as a freelancer before they offered to hire me.) My management were very sensitive about interviewing the guys separately and never confronting them with me, even so, it was not easy, emotionally speaking.
posted by fraula at 2:53 AM on November 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
However, a counterpoint to the people recommending changes to dress. I had to deal with sexual harassment a few years ago, and my conservative dress was part of it. "Hey hon, you look pretty sure of yourself dressed like that, need a man to take you down and loosen up?" "Wow, I keep imagining what you'd look like if you were in a cute, tight little skirt, why don't you get out of those pants, hon?" "Good thing you always wear flats, cause woo-boy, if you wore heels, I'd be all over you." "Why you always wear high collars?..." you get the picture.
Jerks will be jerks. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, "hatred") and gynē (γυνή, "woman". Not dress, makeup, how you walk, height, weight, accent - no, just "woman", because all it takes to be treated like that is to be a woman.
In my case, I complained about them to upper management and they were fired. Two of the jerks had been middle managers themselves, by the way. Any "reputation" I had gained for not having a sense of humor disappeared pretty quickly once the perpetrators were gone. But I can indeed understand your reluctance - in my case, I knew the upper management well and had agreed to work with their company precisely because they prioritized a respectful workplace. (I'd done occasional work for them as a freelancer before they offered to hire me.) My management were very sensitive about interviewing the guys separately and never confronting them with me, even so, it was not easy, emotionally speaking.
posted by fraula at 2:53 AM on November 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
I submit that a punch in the nose or a knee in the crotch or the good old traditional slap across the face would be an effective response for the exact same reason that they're sexually harassing her in the first place. (A slap might be even better than a punch, actually: it's more generation-appropriate.)
It also gives them the perfect opportunity to go to HR themselves and get her fired for assaulting a co-worker.
...But wait, what's this, she's stating that he provoked her? Well, that's a he-said-she-said thing, isn't it? And SHE'S the one who got physical, not him, right? Clearly that's the BIGGER problem, so SHE should be fired, clearly....
Yeah. That's how THAT would really play out, instead of him skulking back to his cave. Even "shaved apes" know how to find a way to work the system. You DON'T give your rival the opportunity to throw something back into your face like that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:33 AM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
It also gives them the perfect opportunity to go to HR themselves and get her fired for assaulting a co-worker.
...But wait, what's this, she's stating that he provoked her? Well, that's a he-said-she-said thing, isn't it? And SHE'S the one who got physical, not him, right? Clearly that's the BIGGER problem, so SHE should be fired, clearly....
Yeah. That's how THAT would really play out, instead of him skulking back to his cave. Even "shaved apes" know how to find a way to work the system. You DON'T give your rival the opportunity to throw something back into your face like that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:33 AM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
2. "Crack". Next time one of them gives you some especially egregious shit in front of the others ... punch him, hard. Break his nose if possible...Not only was he "decked by a girl", he will be assumed (rightly) to have provoked the confrontation and thoroughly deserved his punch. The same culture that treats you as unworthy of respect comes with a contradictory urge to treat you as requiring physical protection. Punch him, and the others will take your side.
Uh, this is so wrong it hurts. And no, she wouldn't have a justification defense, which she knows. This is battery and she could get arrested, sued, and fired.
posted by Pax at 6:29 AM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Uh, this is so wrong it hurts. And no, she wouldn't have a justification defense, which she knows. This is battery and she could get arrested, sued, and fired.
posted by Pax at 6:29 AM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
if you DO dress and groom yourself more conservatively, you're less likely to get those comments. More conservative shoes, knee-length skirts, hair in a bun, glasses, etc.
Not in my experience. I've gotten the treatment that fraula has, too.
(Your description above gives me weary flashbacks to the endless "sexy librarian ooh let your hair down" comments. Did you know that it's a FACT that women who dress all stiff and proper are tigresses in the sack? I know this because it was helpfully explained to me so many times. Also, an angry reaction proves it, while a cool reaction is coy. And so forth.)
It doesn't matter what you wear. If you cover yourself in the most conservative possible covering and then wrap yourself in yet more cloth, a certain type of man will persist in finding ever-more creative ways to fetishize the fact of your sex.
posted by desuetude at 11:27 AM on November 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
Not in my experience. I've gotten the treatment that fraula has, too.
(Your description above gives me weary flashbacks to the endless "sexy librarian ooh let your hair down" comments. Did you know that it's a FACT that women who dress all stiff and proper are tigresses in the sack? I know this because it was helpfully explained to me so many times. Also, an angry reaction proves it, while a cool reaction is coy. And so forth.)
It doesn't matter what you wear. If you cover yourself in the most conservative possible covering and then wrap yourself in yet more cloth, a certain type of man will persist in finding ever-more creative ways to fetishize the fact of your sex.
posted by desuetude at 11:27 AM on November 4, 2009 [2 favorites]
aeschenkarnos: I suggest that that's a very gender-neutral, responsible, adult and equitable human resources management-approved view, Julen, which is exactly the problem at hand. She's not dealing with the enlightened here, she's dealing with a bunch of shaved apes.
And I suggest my reaction is based on 15 years as a woman working in industries largely populated by men who has seen people fire someone for the threat of violence that they did not witness or have definitive proof of and then not fire an upper manager for propositioning his subordinates because it was he said/she said. My reaction is based on having been a middle manager and seeing how my superiors adjudged similar situations. My reaction is based on the reality of my life so far.
Furthermore, there's no evidence that hauling off and hitting the asshole won't result in him hitting her back. Violence isn't the solution in this case.
posted by julen at 11:47 AM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
And I suggest my reaction is based on 15 years as a woman working in industries largely populated by men who has seen people fire someone for the threat of violence that they did not witness or have definitive proof of and then not fire an upper manager for propositioning his subordinates because it was he said/she said. My reaction is based on having been a middle manager and seeing how my superiors adjudged similar situations. My reaction is based on the reality of my life so far.
Furthermore, there's no evidence that hauling off and hitting the asshole won't result in him hitting her back. Violence isn't the solution in this case.
posted by julen at 11:47 AM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't want to derail this so won't push the punch point further. Any suggestion made here is for the OP to consider and decide on for herself. There are plenty of other suggestions in the thread here including five or six more of mine.
In any case it's worth thinking through the relative priorities of:
- keeping your job
- maintaining your dignity
- following the rules
- your effort required
- emotional stress on you
- getting the behavior to stop
- punishing the wrongdoer
- maintaining future career prospects
- harm to the company (desirable, undesirable, or irrelevant)
and getting advice, paid or not, from friends, other professional women, and other lawyers (just because you are one does not imply that you will objectively assess your own case, and from the context of the story your firm does not specialize in sexual harassment law) and deciding your actions accordingly.
You don't have to take it, as long as you continue to take it it will get worse not better, and the fact that they are doing this to you is a greater disloyalty to the company than would be your exposing of their actions; and if upper management don't agree then the company isn't worthy of your loyalty.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 6:10 PM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
In any case it's worth thinking through the relative priorities of:
- keeping your job
- maintaining your dignity
- following the rules
- your effort required
- emotional stress on you
- getting the behavior to stop
- punishing the wrongdoer
- maintaining future career prospects
- harm to the company (desirable, undesirable, or irrelevant)
and getting advice, paid or not, from friends, other professional women, and other lawyers (just because you are one does not imply that you will objectively assess your own case, and from the context of the story your firm does not specialize in sexual harassment law) and deciding your actions accordingly.
You don't have to take it, as long as you continue to take it it will get worse not better, and the fact that they are doing this to you is a greater disloyalty to the company than would be your exposing of their actions; and if upper management don't agree then the company isn't worthy of your loyalty.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 6:10 PM on November 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
The flip side of guys seeing you as a "girl" rather than a professional, is the protective instinct. I'm surprised seeing you in this situation hasn't activated it in any of your co-workers so far.
When I was in college I worked part time in a blue collar job with all middle aged men. My direct boss was crude and crass in general, BUT he instinctively acted as a buffer between me and the rest of them. "Leave her alone," "let her do her job," "don't say that crap to her" were very frequent phrases out of his mouth in the beginning. After not very long everyone treated me with respect, and nobody really hit on me (at least not while he was around).
So, my advice is to become pals with some of the older guys. Let them see you as a daughter figure. It's not really about male/female-- plenty of men have mentors/protectors in the workplace.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:49 AM on November 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
When I was in college I worked part time in a blue collar job with all middle aged men. My direct boss was crude and crass in general, BUT he instinctively acted as a buffer between me and the rest of them. "Leave her alone," "let her do her job," "don't say that crap to her" were very frequent phrases out of his mouth in the beginning. After not very long everyone treated me with respect, and nobody really hit on me (at least not while he was around).
So, my advice is to become pals with some of the older guys. Let them see you as a daughter figure. It's not really about male/female-- plenty of men have mentors/protectors in the workplace.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:49 AM on November 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ultimately, as you know, you will have to get a new job. Behavior as blatant as you describe can't be completely unnoticed (by higher-ups, other harassed women, HR) --- that means it is noticed, and is tolerated. So you need to get another job.
Until that happens, there are two things you can do:
1) Document everything. I know you don't want to take legal action, but documentation will make you feel a little better, and you'll have it if you need it.
2) Go the person you trust most in HR, and tell him/her some of what you've seen. Say you're a little worried that women may get offended, which could lead to the company facing legal exposure. As much as possible, position yourself as someone who has seen stuff, rather than someone to whom stuff happened, and as solely interested in the company's continued success. Say you don't want to be involved in whatever happens next, and you have no personal stake in any of it: you just want someone aware of the issue so they can figure it out. Assume everything you say will be repeated. The tone you want is depersonalized, controlled and friendly.
This of course is playacting, and is totally different from how you actually feel. I assume you're furious, which you have every right to be. You are not overreacting at all: your environment is appalling. You should be able to pursue your career unimpeded by sexist thugs, and I hope your next job makes that possible. I wish you the best of luck.
posted by Susan PG at 2:52 AM on November 8, 2009
Until that happens, there are two things you can do:
1) Document everything. I know you don't want to take legal action, but documentation will make you feel a little better, and you'll have it if you need it.
2) Go the person you trust most in HR, and tell him/her some of what you've seen. Say you're a little worried that women may get offended, which could lead to the company facing legal exposure. As much as possible, position yourself as someone who has seen stuff, rather than someone to whom stuff happened, and as solely interested in the company's continued success. Say you don't want to be involved in whatever happens next, and you have no personal stake in any of it: you just want someone aware of the issue so they can figure it out. Assume everything you say will be repeated. The tone you want is depersonalized, controlled and friendly.
This of course is playacting, and is totally different from how you actually feel. I assume you're furious, which you have every right to be. You are not overreacting at all: your environment is appalling. You should be able to pursue your career unimpeded by sexist thugs, and I hope your next job makes that possible. I wish you the best of luck.
posted by Susan PG at 2:52 AM on November 8, 2009
So sorry you are going through this. First, I endorse EmpressCallipygos's politely-but-firmly advice.
I want to share a direct-yet-indirect "professional collegial concern" way that I dealt with this type of thing more times than I like to recall. It may not be the best way, but it worked very well for me and it may work for you.
Jerk: "Disgusting sexual story or joke; inappropriate comment or advance"
Me: "Wow [pause to let him think he impressed me] - you are so damn lucky you said that to me as a company Public Relations Manager and not to someone else - because that kind of talk could land you in a harassment suit."
Jerk: "Hem-haw, I was joking or don't be so serious, hem haw..."
Me: "No, [jerk's namename], you are probably a nice guy who meant no harm, but you need to understand how serious something like that could be and how awful it would be for you if just one single person reported a comment like that - the company would be forced by law to investigate you to limit their potential liability.
Jerk: Trying to get away, change the subject...
Me: "No really, [jerk's name] don't you read the papers? You could even lose your job over something like that. Man oh man, you could get in serious trouble and I would hate to see that happen to you..."
That always ended things.
And that "collegial concern" approach maybe chilled the air a bit, but it didn't close any doors with managers that I simply had to work with successfully on into the future.
Your status as an attorney could add more weight to this approach.
Similarly, in reporting this, you don't have to make this about you personally. You can use your position as an attorney and your responsibility to protect the company to address this. I would go to your supervisor (who is presumably also an attorney) and make it clear that numerous men have said highly inappropriate things to you and that you are aware that they have said them to other women as well. As a legal representative of the company, you are highly concerned about the company's potential liability since management may be unaware of their legal responsibility under EEOC to take the necessary steps to prevent, investigate and correct harassment. Making it about business and your professional obligation to protect the company rather than about you personally might make it easier for you to report it.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:09 AM on November 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I want to share a direct-yet-indirect "professional collegial concern" way that I dealt with this type of thing more times than I like to recall. It may not be the best way, but it worked very well for me and it may work for you.
Jerk: "Disgusting sexual story or joke; inappropriate comment or advance"
Me: "Wow [pause to let him think he impressed me] - you are so damn lucky you said that to me as a company Public Relations Manager and not to someone else - because that kind of talk could land you in a harassment suit."
Jerk: "Hem-haw, I was joking or don't be so serious, hem haw..."
Me: "No, [jerk's namename], you are probably a nice guy who meant no harm, but you need to understand how serious something like that could be and how awful it would be for you if just one single person reported a comment like that - the company would be forced by law to investigate you to limit their potential liability.
Jerk: Trying to get away, change the subject...
Me: "No really, [jerk's name] don't you read the papers? You could even lose your job over something like that. Man oh man, you could get in serious trouble and I would hate to see that happen to you..."
That always ended things.
And that "collegial concern" approach maybe chilled the air a bit, but it didn't close any doors with managers that I simply had to work with successfully on into the future.
Your status as an attorney could add more weight to this approach.
Similarly, in reporting this, you don't have to make this about you personally. You can use your position as an attorney and your responsibility to protect the company to address this. I would go to your supervisor (who is presumably also an attorney) and make it clear that numerous men have said highly inappropriate things to you and that you are aware that they have said them to other women as well. As a legal representative of the company, you are highly concerned about the company's potential liability since management may be unaware of their legal responsibility under EEOC to take the necessary steps to prevent, investigate and correct harassment. Making it about business and your professional obligation to protect the company rather than about you personally might make it easier for you to report it.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:09 AM on November 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of viable approaches here. I have only dropped in to say that contrary to some suggestions in this thread, do not talk about how you feel. You will be dismissed as emotional immediately. Stick to logic and unemotional language.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:33 AM on November 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 9:33 AM on November 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
On a case by case basis, in my field (engineering), I've often found that a half-joking "Gosh, careful, you can get sued for that some places" shuts them up. I imagine it'd work doubly so if you're, y'know, a lawyer and could actually sue. If you can manage snarky comments, that'll make you less "serious" and more "hardass" or, possibly, "bitch." Either way it will shut people up around you.
If you wear skirts to work, don't. Don't reintroduce them until you know you have peoples' respect.
posted by olinerd at 12:40 PM on November 3, 2009 [1 favorite]