Dating, marriage and the whole "league" thing.
October 27, 2009 9:30 AM Subscribe
Is this girl "out of my league"? I met an attractive (in every sense) girl recently, and we have a lot in common - except earning potential (and maybe to some extent family/social background).
We both socialise in the same crowd and had a lot of fun the last few times we saw each other. We haven't been on any occasions with just us two so far. We're both practising Catholics and I'd certainly be open to dating her / courtship in the future.
I think she likes me and I certainly find her really attractive. Probably for this reason I'm thinking ahead quite a few steps (maybe somewhat futile although we both raised the topic of marriage a few times now in a lighthearted conversational way).
Although I've clearly got higher qualifications than her, and I'm about 3 years older, I'm earning below average wage for the UK, and my career has a rather slow progression. In contast she is looking at buying a house already.
My background is very much lower-middle class if not upper-working, and I've felt this sort of "inferiority" with previous girlfriends, and I'm sure it contributed to breakups. I'm not being deliberately chauvinistic I hope!
I recently read "Watching the English" and was a bit depressed as I fit the stereotype of intellectual lower class man interested in "marrying up", which statistically is apparently not successful. Possibly this doesn't apply because she's Eastern European but I'm thinking she comes from a good, stable professional family background i.e. middle-class (for various reasons I won't go into).
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon? Should I stop worrying and trust that any girl who's interested in me will take me as I am? Or should I make an effort to meet more girls in my "league"? Or change "league"???
We both socialise in the same crowd and had a lot of fun the last few times we saw each other. We haven't been on any occasions with just us two so far. We're both practising Catholics and I'd certainly be open to dating her / courtship in the future.
I think she likes me and I certainly find her really attractive. Probably for this reason I'm thinking ahead quite a few steps (maybe somewhat futile although we both raised the topic of marriage a few times now in a lighthearted conversational way).
Although I've clearly got higher qualifications than her, and I'm about 3 years older, I'm earning below average wage for the UK, and my career has a rather slow progression. In contast she is looking at buying a house already.
My background is very much lower-middle class if not upper-working, and I've felt this sort of "inferiority" with previous girlfriends, and I'm sure it contributed to breakups. I'm not being deliberately chauvinistic I hope!
I recently read "Watching the English" and was a bit depressed as I fit the stereotype of intellectual lower class man interested in "marrying up", which statistically is apparently not successful. Possibly this doesn't apply because she's Eastern European but I'm thinking she comes from a good, stable professional family background i.e. middle-class (for various reasons I won't go into).
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon? Should I stop worrying and trust that any girl who's interested in me will take me as I am? Or should I make an effort to meet more girls in my "league"? Or change "league"???
Jesus wept. Are you reall going to base your future on some dubious stat in a pop culture sociology book?.
Go back, cross out all that crap, leaving this bit:
we have a lot in common ...and had a lot of fun the last few times we saw each other
Then go and ask her out. If you keep getting on, see how it goes.
posted by biffa at 9:38 AM on October 27, 2009 [7 favorites]
Go back, cross out all that crap, leaving this bit:
we have a lot in common ...and had a lot of fun the last few times we saw each other
Then go and ask her out. If you keep getting on, see how it goes.
posted by biffa at 9:38 AM on October 27, 2009 [7 favorites]
Why are you wasting your time writing this down when you should be working out how to ask her out? Go for it!
posted by gadha at 9:39 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by gadha at 9:39 AM on October 27, 2009
I'm going to quote Shit My Dad Says for you:
"That woman was sexy...Out of your league? Son. Let women figure out why they won't screw you, don't do it for them."
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:39 AM on October 27, 2009 [158 favorites]
"That woman was sexy...Out of your league? Son. Let women figure out why they won't screw you, don't do it for them."
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:39 AM on October 27, 2009 [158 favorites]
If she seems to like you and is already talking playfully about marriage with you, she's already taken your status into account and judged you worthy (or just doesn't care about it as much as you seem to).
Stop worrying about it!
Plus, advanced degrees have a big social cache in most circles which makes up for your low-paying job.
She likes you, you like her, ask her out and see how the relationship develops and don't try to predict the end before you even start. I am sure she has flaws that you will discover as well.
posted by rmless at 9:40 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Stop worrying about it!
Plus, advanced degrees have a big social cache in most circles which makes up for your low-paying job.
She likes you, you like her, ask her out and see how the relationship develops and don't try to predict the end before you even start. I am sure she has flaws that you will discover as well.
posted by rmless at 9:40 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Definitely stop worrying about your/her class/league. If you are friends then you can have a relationship. Ask her out, have fun, see what happens!
posted by jonnyploy at 9:40 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by jonnyploy at 9:40 AM on October 27, 2009
Given the fact that you even use the term "courtship" and then go on to talk about the differences in your earning potential as a factor in why you might be mismatched, I'd say you might need a refresher course on modern dating. Here's your first lesson: ask her out.
posted by katillathehun at 9:41 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by katillathehun at 9:41 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
The fact you used the term "marrying up" in a serious context just blew my mind.
Go out, have fun, and burn that book.
posted by Spurious at 9:41 AM on October 27, 2009 [5 favorites]
Go out, have fun, and burn that book.
posted by Spurious at 9:41 AM on October 27, 2009 [5 favorites]
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon?
Exactly as much as you believe in it. People love concepts like "league" because it gives them a rule, a way to satisfy their desire for control. Just go for it and accept that you may succeed or fail, but that you will always be able to move forward in your life.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:41 AM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
Exactly as much as you believe in it. People love concepts like "league" because it gives them a rule, a way to satisfy their desire for control. Just go for it and accept that you may succeed or fail, but that you will always be able to move forward in your life.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:41 AM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
Don't fuck up someone's potential interest in you by worrying about shit like "leagues" and all. Also, don't worry about marrying or not marrying someone you have not been on a date with yet.
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon? Irrelevant.
Should I stop worrying and trust that any girl who's interested in me will take me as I am? Yes.
Or should I make an effort to meet more girls in my "league"? Or change "league"??? No.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:48 AM on October 27, 2009
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon? Irrelevant.
Should I stop worrying and trust that any girl who's interested in me will take me as I am? Yes.
Or should I make an effort to meet more girls in my "league"? Or change "league"??? No.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:48 AM on October 27, 2009
Yeah you might be but we can't figure that out, only she can. Love seems to be nice, falling in love is harder.
posted by sully75 at 9:51 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by sully75 at 9:51 AM on October 27, 2009
This is undoubtedly a very US-centric answer, but you need some confidence, dude. Over here, we would say that your sense of inferiority is what makes you think she might be out of your league, not your respective social classes/conditions.
Inferiority can lead to groveling and unseemly expressions of gratitude for small things (e.g., she *looked* my way! oh joy! I don't deserve it!), and, ultimately, resentment. Work on your self-esteem and confidence. Approach her based on respect for her as a person and your enjoyment of her company.
posted by jasper411 at 9:53 AM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
Inferiority can lead to groveling and unseemly expressions of gratitude for small things (e.g., she *looked* my way! oh joy! I don't deserve it!), and, ultimately, resentment. Work on your self-esteem and confidence. Approach her based on respect for her as a person and your enjoyment of her company.
posted by jasper411 at 9:53 AM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
We both socialise in the same crowd and had a lot of fun the last few times we saw each other
I know this was said already, but that's all you need.
Also,
although we both raised the topic of marriage a few times now in a lighthearted conversational way
Perhaps it's just the type of people (non-Catholics in general, New Yorkers in particular) I associate with, but two unmarried people just chatting about marriage - even lightheartedly - doesn't really happen unless the two people are sort of testing the waters. So, don't go and try too hard and trip yourself up, but odds are good that this lady would be amiable to your courtship. Really, don't change much. Continue seeing her socially. Find a super casual reason to hang out - just the two of you. If you work near each other, ask if she wants to grab lunch sometime. If there's an event that you want to check out or are really excited about, ask if she'd like to attend it with you. Continue hanging out and being comfortable with her and she will respond in kind.
posted by scrutiny at 9:54 AM on October 27, 2009
I know this was said already, but that's all you need.
Also,
although we both raised the topic of marriage a few times now in a lighthearted conversational way
Perhaps it's just the type of people (non-Catholics in general, New Yorkers in particular) I associate with, but two unmarried people just chatting about marriage - even lightheartedly - doesn't really happen unless the two people are sort of testing the waters. So, don't go and try too hard and trip yourself up, but odds are good that this lady would be amiable to your courtship. Really, don't change much. Continue seeing her socially. Find a super casual reason to hang out - just the two of you. If you work near each other, ask if she wants to grab lunch sometime. If there's an event that you want to check out or are really excited about, ask if she'd like to attend it with you. Continue hanging out and being comfortable with her and she will respond in kind.
posted by scrutiny at 9:54 AM on October 27, 2009
If you think she's out of your league then yes, she is.
If don't think she's out of your league, then no, she isn't.
It's up to you and your attitude that will determine all of this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:55 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
If don't think she's out of your league, then no, she isn't.
It's up to you and your attitude that will determine all of this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:55 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
Faint heart ne'er won fair lady. Go get her!
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:57 AM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:57 AM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
Plenty of women don't care how much money you make. You shouldn't let stuff like this get in your head or influence your actions. Try and date her. If it works, great, if she rejects you -- and it could be for any reason, not because of imagined "leagues" -- then move on.
Also, keep in mind that buying into this mindset can hurt you even though it's mostly made up. If you do subtle things that show that you don't think you're good enough for her, then you risk coming across as insecure or unconfident, neither of which will help you.
posted by Nattie at 9:58 AM on October 27, 2009
Also, keep in mind that buying into this mindset can hurt you even though it's mostly made up. If you do subtle things that show that you don't think you're good enough for her, then you risk coming across as insecure or unconfident, neither of which will help you.
posted by Nattie at 9:58 AM on October 27, 2009
Best answer: "Out of someone's league" is a loaded phrase. How about considering whether you are _compatible_ with one another?
I was born into a middle class family, have a degree and earn well above average for my age. My partner's family are working class; he left school at 16 to work in construction.
Despite this, we are extremely compatible, perhaps due to some of the following factors
- we are of fairly similar intelligence
- we have similar ideas about what kind of area to live in, what kind of things to spend money on and how profligate to be, how we like to spend our time.
- we have very complementary skills
However, we didn't find this all out by THINKING about it. We found out by TRYING it. There's a reason that scientists find things out by experiment, not by "logical thinking".
posted by emilyw at 10:00 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
I was born into a middle class family, have a degree and earn well above average for my age. My partner's family are working class; he left school at 16 to work in construction.
Despite this, we are extremely compatible, perhaps due to some of the following factors
- we are of fairly similar intelligence
- we have similar ideas about what kind of area to live in, what kind of things to spend money on and how profligate to be, how we like to spend our time.
- we have very complementary skills
However, we didn't find this all out by THINKING about it. We found out by TRYING it. There's a reason that scientists find things out by experiment, not by "logical thinking".
posted by emilyw at 10:00 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
My background is very much lower-middle class if not upper-working, and I've felt this sort of "inferiority" with previous girlfriends, and I'm sure it contributed to breakups.
Sounds like the biggest obstacle is in your own head.
posted by vacapinta at 10:01 AM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sounds like the biggest obstacle is in your own head.
posted by vacapinta at 10:01 AM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
From Twitter: shitmydadsays
Pretty well sums it up right there.
posted by Xoebe at 10:02 AM on October 27, 2009
Pretty well sums it up right there.
posted by Xoebe at 10:02 AM on October 27, 2009
You're just thinking too much. Ask her out, and it doesn't work out, at least you'd know.
posted by joewandy at 10:03 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by joewandy at 10:03 AM on October 27, 2009
Nth-ing "just ask her out already, mofo," with the addition that you might try, in addition, getting over your class-based bullshit, also.
I mean, it seems from the above that you're English, so there's a probably a certain amount of permanent baggage you'll never remove due to omnipresence of assholes --- scuze me, arseholes --- standing around waiting to heap a few more shovel-fuls on your back, but where you were born, how you talk and your table manners don't have dick to do with how you treat other people, how smart you are, and whether you're a responsible, knd, witty, ambitious, interesting motherfucker. Whereas the latter qualities have a hell of a lot to do with whether any non-arsehole of the opposite sex will want to spend the rest of their lives bonded to you in holy matrimony. Capice? If you and this girl end up married, it'll be because the days when she gets to spend time in your company are a hell of a lot more delightful than they days when she doesn't, not because of what term your mother used to describe a napkin.
posted by Diablevert at 10:06 AM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
I mean, it seems from the above that you're English, so there's a probably a certain amount of permanent baggage you'll never remove due to omnipresence of assholes --- scuze me, arseholes --- standing around waiting to heap a few more shovel-fuls on your back, but where you were born, how you talk and your table manners don't have dick to do with how you treat other people, how smart you are, and whether you're a responsible, knd, witty, ambitious, interesting motherfucker. Whereas the latter qualities have a hell of a lot to do with whether any non-arsehole of the opposite sex will want to spend the rest of their lives bonded to you in holy matrimony. Capice? If you and this girl end up married, it'll be because the days when she gets to spend time in your company are a hell of a lot more delightful than they days when she doesn't, not because of what term your mother used to describe a napkin.
posted by Diablevert at 10:06 AM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
Unlike everyone else here, I think your concern isn't totally unreasonable—especially if she's dramatically wealthier than you and seems to be looking for someone who's also dramatically wealthier—or someone more upper-class, or someone who wants to settle down, etc. But, of course, she might not care about those things at all. (If she's Eastern European, she may not know/care about classes in the UK.) So it would also be totally unreasonable to assume she would never ever date you for this reason. Just make sure she knows about your background and financial situation (no point in hiding it since she'll know sooner or later), and if she seems to like you, go for it.
(Am I the only one who gets pissed off when people use "chauvinist" like that? A chauvinist is someone who is excessively, unreasonably patriotic, and by extension someone who is unreasonably loyal to a group. When feminists started saying "male chauvinist", they meant the latter. "Chauvinist" never meant "sexist.")
posted by k. at 10:09 AM on October 27, 2009
(Am I the only one who gets pissed off when people use "chauvinist" like that? A chauvinist is someone who is excessively, unreasonably patriotic, and by extension someone who is unreasonably loyal to a group. When feminists started saying "male chauvinist", they meant the latter. "Chauvinist" never meant "sexist.")
posted by k. at 10:09 AM on October 27, 2009
Yes, there is such thing as a league. Have any of you even looked at the world around you, ever? Poor ugly stupid people marry poor ugly stupid people, attractive rich smart people marry attractive rich smart people, and things kind of mix around in between regarding the relative weight each person gives to each factor they look for in a partner. To think that there is no such thing as being out of someone's league is hopelessly romantic and has nothing to do with the way people actually pair up.
Given that you are jokingly talking about marriage already, and run in the same circle of friends, you are clearly in her league.
posted by idiopath at 10:14 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Given that you are jokingly talking about marriage already, and run in the same circle of friends, you are clearly in her league.
posted by idiopath at 10:14 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Damn I was coming in here to quite shitmydadsays, too.
posted by notsnot at 10:15 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by notsnot at 10:15 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
I might be generalizing here but for people not from UK, they'd likely not know / care about your 'classes issue'. At least, I didn't know about it before I read this post.
posted by joewandy at 10:21 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by joewandy at 10:21 AM on October 27, 2009
Just a datapoint to help reinforce what everyone else has said. I went to college with a girl who was incandescently beautiful, I mean, it was one of those 'she was so pretty it kind of hurt to look at her' sort of things, and we ended up working in different stores in a local mall. We knew each other well enough that we started having lunch pretty regularly and ended up being fairly good friends. I never asked her out because she was so clearly out of my league that it wasn't even worth thinking about.
Eventually, she decided to move out of state, and as we were having our last meal together, I mentioned in passing "You know, I've always had a bit of a crush on you, I'm really sorry to see you go because I always liked our lunches." to which she responded with the unthinkable "You dope! You should have said something! I would have loved to go out with you..."
It was revelatory. Don't be a dope.
posted by quin at 10:30 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
Eventually, she decided to move out of state, and as we were having our last meal together, I mentioned in passing "You know, I've always had a bit of a crush on you, I'm really sorry to see you go because I always liked our lunches." to which she responded with the unthinkable "You dope! You should have said something! I would have loved to go out with you..."
It was revelatory. Don't be a dope.
posted by quin at 10:30 AM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
Speaking from the woman's point of view, if some guy told me he liked me but didn't want to ask me out because I was "out of his league," I would be insulted that he thought I was so shallow as to care about such things.
posted by JanetLand at 10:32 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by JanetLand at 10:32 AM on October 27, 2009
Best answer: I think she likes me and I certainly find her really attractive.
Just kiss her, you uptight British fool.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:38 AM on October 27, 2009 [15 favorites]
Just kiss her, you uptight British fool.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:38 AM on October 27, 2009 [15 favorites]
I really hadn't understood the whole class system/league thing before I lived in the UK. Coming from Canada, I thought it was this kind of cute myth. Wow - my mind was totally blown at how prevalent and serious people are about it in the UK. (This is a country that last year featured a television commercial campaign about being "too posh" to eat a certain burger. Ugh.)
But let me tell you this: fuck it. You seem compatible, you should totally go for it and, yes, there are probably going to be obstacles with it at some point down the line but when you're in this awesome relationship together, it won't matter.
posted by meerkatty at 10:39 AM on October 27, 2009
But let me tell you this: fuck it. You seem compatible, you should totally go for it and, yes, there are probably going to be obstacles with it at some point down the line but when you're in this awesome relationship together, it won't matter.
posted by meerkatty at 10:39 AM on October 27, 2009
Ok, so you have some British class hang-ups. But she's not British, so she probably doesn't share your British class hang-ups. And my sense is that the pool of young practicing Catholics in the UK is not that huge, so if that's important to her, you've already got a big advantage. I think you should stop obsessing about this and ask her out already.
posted by craichead at 10:49 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by craichead at 10:49 AM on October 27, 2009
Best answer: I don't think he's necessarily asking whether she'd go out with him. Easy answer: ask her.
However, they could end up having a fun, intense relationship. They could end up married. And issues about their respective backgrounds could come up five or ten years later.
Is this a reason not to ask her out? No... but it might be a reason to be really, really good at communicating with each other, especially if you find yourself slightly resenting opportunities she's had (or not resenting, just, you know, reflecting), or if she find herself a little lonely if she wants someone to discuss some interest her parents cultivated in her, like specific kinds of literature or performing arts. Or if you end up having very sensitive children, and your parents don't understand why you don't just ______ instead of coddling and talking them to death. Or whatever.
Anyway, it _does_ matter, even in the US, but all couples have obstacles. Finding someone who's groovy enough means it's worth working on the obstacles. Being smart means you can at least identify most of the obstacles beforehand, which gives you a better chance of conquering them.
Good luck! For now, just have fun.
posted by amtho at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
However, they could end up having a fun, intense relationship. They could end up married. And issues about their respective backgrounds could come up five or ten years later.
Is this a reason not to ask her out? No... but it might be a reason to be really, really good at communicating with each other, especially if you find yourself slightly resenting opportunities she's had (or not resenting, just, you know, reflecting), or if she find herself a little lonely if she wants someone to discuss some interest her parents cultivated in her, like specific kinds of literature or performing arts. Or if you end up having very sensitive children, and your parents don't understand why you don't just ______ instead of coddling and talking them to death. Or whatever.
Anyway, it _does_ matter, even in the US, but all couples have obstacles. Finding someone who's groovy enough means it's worth working on the obstacles. Being smart means you can at least identify most of the obstacles beforehand, which gives you a better chance of conquering them.
Good luck! For now, just have fun.
posted by amtho at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
To quote shitmydadsays: "That woman was sexy...Out of your league? Son. Let women figure out why they won't screw you, don't do it for them."
I can sort of understand where you are coming from. I have lots of family and friends still living in and around London. It's strange just how important the schools you go to, and the accent you have, actually is.
(Aside: One of the coolest lines in Mad Men recently was between Lane, the British boss, and his wife, who can't stand living in New York. She says something about how "New York isn't London, it's not even England", and he says something like, "It's true. I've been here 10 months and no one has asked me where I went to school." So Fucking Awesome.)
posted by chunking express at 10:52 AM on October 27, 2009
I can sort of understand where you are coming from. I have lots of family and friends still living in and around London. It's strange just how important the schools you go to, and the accent you have, actually is.
(Aside: One of the coolest lines in Mad Men recently was between Lane, the British boss, and his wife, who can't stand living in New York. She says something about how "New York isn't London, it's not even England", and he says something like, "It's true. I've been here 10 months and no one has asked me where I went to school." So Fucking Awesome.)
posted by chunking express at 10:52 AM on October 27, 2009
Also, I come from a good, stable, professional family background, and my parents have successfully obliterated most traces of their working-class origins. But they pretty much worship education, and they've passed that on to me. So a physics grad/librarian seems pretty amazing to me. Don't assume that middle-class people value money more than anything else, because that's not necessarily true. Actually, middle-class people sometimes have the luxury of valuing other things more than money.
posted by craichead at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by craichead at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Suppose the situation was reversed. Suppose that she were in a lower-class position than you. Would you feel like you were out of her league? Would you want to date her?
Reversing the situation often can provide insight into what about the situation is actually bothering you. I'm not going to tell you how to interpret the answer you give, because that really is something pretty personal. However, if you still feel somehow hesitant about this relationship's potential despite everyone upthread telling you to go for it, think long and hard about how you'd answer this question and why.
posted by Ms. Saint at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Reversing the situation often can provide insight into what about the situation is actually bothering you. I'm not going to tell you how to interpret the answer you give, because that really is something pretty personal. However, if you still feel somehow hesitant about this relationship's potential despite everyone upthread telling you to go for it, think long and hard about how you'd answer this question and why.
posted by Ms. Saint at 10:58 AM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You're right to raise a concern about future income and expectations. I've seen friends in the same scenario get married and sweep this issue under the rug. The issue certainly presents itself again if/when you have kids. Will there be resentment if you both have to work? If you can't afford the best school or neighborhood? If you can't afford the nice clothes and exotic vacations like everyone else in your social/family circle? Oh okay, I'm describing my own situation, and I'm lucky that my wife is tolerant and happy in our life together. I'm just saying, the "keeping up with the Jones's" thing is REAL and something that needs to be contemplated in an honest manner if you want ensure long-term compatibility. Ask her out and good luck.
posted by tfmm at 11:25 AM on October 27, 2009
posted by tfmm at 11:25 AM on October 27, 2009
If someone is worth dating or marrying, you're always going to feel inferior to them. The second you start feeling like the more worthy partner, it's over.
I'd say more, but I gotta run. My wife is calling for her lowly worm to come eat the dirt of the floor.
posted by paanta at 11:27 AM on October 27, 2009 [7 favorites]
I'd say more, but I gotta run. My wife is calling for her lowly worm to come eat the dirt of the floor.
posted by paanta at 11:27 AM on October 27, 2009 [7 favorites]
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon?
Exactly as much as you believe in it.
This. I'm an ugly, quiet guy who has dated every beautiful woman I've ever wanted to, including models, strippers, and just plain old everyday gorgeous girls. My friends have always expressed disbelief: "How did YOU get HER?"
I did it by not believing in the concept of "league." I like beautiful women, so I date beautiful women. I think just about anyone who takes care of themselves can date just about anyone else who catches their eye.
Somewhat related note: I was a little concerned when a long-term relationship ended recently that I was now too old to date the women I find attractive, and that I might need to settle. Instead, the only difference is that now I avoid beautiful, airheaded one-night-stands in favor of woman with more substance.
posted by coolguymichael at 12:15 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Exactly as much as you believe in it.
This. I'm an ugly, quiet guy who has dated every beautiful woman I've ever wanted to, including models, strippers, and just plain old everyday gorgeous girls. My friends have always expressed disbelief: "How did YOU get HER?"
I did it by not believing in the concept of "league." I like beautiful women, so I date beautiful women. I think just about anyone who takes care of themselves can date just about anyone else who catches their eye.
Somewhat related note: I was a little concerned when a long-term relationship ended recently that I was now too old to date the women I find attractive, and that I might need to settle. Instead, the only difference is that now I avoid beautiful, airheaded one-night-stands in favor of woman with more substance.
posted by coolguymichael at 12:15 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Your post actually put a queasy milk-sick feeling in my tummy. You need to KILL these cockroaches in your brain or you'll never be happy about yourself.
posted by meadowlark lime at 12:18 PM on October 27, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by meadowlark lime at 12:18 PM on October 27, 2009 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Well, it depends. Can you deal with a woman who earns more than you without pouting or bitching or passively-aggressively taking it out on her because you're not "manly" enough or acting like she's taking away your manhood? Since you've said that you HAVE had issues with that in the past that probably contributed to breakups...um, maybe you can't.
It's really sounding more about you than about her (thought we don't know her feelings on the matter). Can YOU deal with someone who's "ahead" of you in life? Or get over your own shit?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:18 PM on October 27, 2009
It's really sounding more about you than about her (thought we don't know her feelings on the matter). Can YOU deal with someone who's "ahead" of you in life? Or get over your own shit?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:18 PM on October 27, 2009
Although I've clearly got higher qualifications than her...
Oh brother.. Please don't ever assume this about anyone. You don't actually know what all this person is capable of. No one is higher or lower than you are, we're all just people. Just go in and do your thing.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:41 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh brother.. Please don't ever assume this about anyone. You don't actually know what all this person is capable of. No one is higher or lower than you are, we're all just people. Just go in and do your thing.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:41 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
So, does the whole "league" concept really apply in romantic relationships with marriage as the eventual horizon?
No, it's a completely false concept that just doesn't mean anything as an applied or prescriptive rule. Your relationship works, or it doesn't. You are able to work past your mutual disappointments/frustrations with one another, or you aren't. Your goals and boundaries and breaking points for the relationship are agreed upon, or they're note. There's no way to predict the success or failure of this or any relationship based upon your social and educational backgrounds, your attractiveness, or your dating history. You can't see the future, and neither can we.
All you can do is take this relationship day by day and continue to work on it. I wish you lots of luck and hope that it has the future you desire.
posted by Miko at 2:09 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
No, it's a completely false concept that just doesn't mean anything as an applied or prescriptive rule. Your relationship works, or it doesn't. You are able to work past your mutual disappointments/frustrations with one another, or you aren't. Your goals and boundaries and breaking points for the relationship are agreed upon, or they're note. There's no way to predict the success or failure of this or any relationship based upon your social and educational backgrounds, your attractiveness, or your dating history. You can't see the future, and neither can we.
All you can do is take this relationship day by day and continue to work on it. I wish you lots of luck and hope that it has the future you desire.
posted by Miko at 2:09 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
I affirm many of the above messages. Society certainly does impose some degree of perceived 'social value' based on various characteristics, including finances, fame, beauty, power, humor, charm, etc etc. The shallower the person, so to speak, the more they buy into the more superficial ones. On the other hand, for decades male and female roles ostensibly have been equalizing, and society has become more egalitarian. So, I reiterate: (1) You shouldn't feel "inferior" to hypothetical girlfriends based on financial status-- though, admittedly, sometimes it's difficult not to let the real and imagined pressures of a very materialistic society influence these feelings. (2) No, she's not out of your league. (3) If she does not accept you solely for the reasons that you list, she is pretty shallow, and not someone you want to be with anyway.
posted by cotesdurhone at 2:12 PM on October 27, 2009
posted by cotesdurhone at 2:12 PM on October 27, 2009
Please help all of us living in the UK by contributing to the death of the class system. Thank you.
As a side note, I knew about the class system before I moved here (my parents were blue collar/working class when they lived here) but I am stunned at the open hostility I get at times because I have a foreign accent that is perceived to come from a less educated country. Ugh.
Ask her out already!
posted by wingless_angel at 2:17 PM on October 27, 2009
As a side note, I knew about the class system before I moved here (my parents were blue collar/working class when they lived here) but I am stunned at the open hostility I get at times because I have a foreign accent that is perceived to come from a less educated country. Ugh.
Ask her out already!
posted by wingless_angel at 2:17 PM on October 27, 2009
Best answer: To me, "We both socialise in the same crowd and had a lot of fun the last few times we saw each other" sounds like you're in the same league.
posted by Neofelis at 2:49 PM on October 27, 2009
posted by Neofelis at 2:49 PM on October 27, 2009
Response by poster: Thank you to all the posters, especially the ones who seemed annoyed mainly by my terrible writing style :D I assure you I didn't "assume" anything about her background, she and I all but swapped CVs.
I learned a lot about real Chauvinism that I can now put into practice, thanks :p
I also greatly enjoyed the forthright Dad on Twitter. Not very English sentiments there but they cheered me up no end.
After 43 (!!!!!!) answers a theme is emerging... I was sure already that it was about me, but thinking it through like this helped me make sense of previous experiences that made it feel something more than that, and look at ways to rise above the real pressures too.
So a big THANKS :D
I seem to have touched on something to get so many dang answers! Hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did or more.
PS. I have just sold the awful book for 40p on Amazon ;)
posted by KMH at 3:00 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
I learned a lot about real Chauvinism that I can now put into practice, thanks :p
I also greatly enjoyed the forthright Dad on Twitter. Not very English sentiments there but they cheered me up no end.
After 43 (!!!!!!) answers a theme is emerging... I was sure already that it was about me, but thinking it through like this helped me make sense of previous experiences that made it feel something more than that, and look at ways to rise above the real pressures too.
So a big THANKS :D
I seem to have touched on something to get so many dang answers! Hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did or more.
PS. I have just sold the awful book for 40p on Amazon ;)
posted by KMH at 3:00 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
The "class" thing isn't as openly acknowledged in the US, and is perhaps somewhat different as in the USA schooling and family names count for less, and money (and often race) counts for more. (There was a distinction between "Old Money" and "New Money" but that has become less intense.) Socio-economic class prejudice, however subtle and inchoate, is not non-existant: though there are exceptions to this rule, what I've seen as a general rule is that relationships where the partners are of very different socio-economic classes often don't last long and have a funny way of ending in mutual recriminations and disaster. The person from the "higher" (richer) class considers the lower-class person to be, at best, a plaything, or at worst, an object of contempt. If the other person hasn't already done something considered "embarrassing" and had the dispute over what is considered appropriate dress/behavior/car, etc. escalate sufficiently to destroy the relationship; the "less equal" partner is then likely to do or say something out of paranoia. (Yes, class insecurity exists in the USA too.) When was the last time you saw an exective date or marry someone from "the projects"? And in most cases, any encounter between the two is accompanied by marked suspicion.
If you don't see any evidence of the contemptuous attitude that I mentioned above, you have no need to worry..
posted by bunky at 9:40 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
If you don't see any evidence of the contemptuous attitude that I mentioned above, you have no need to worry..
posted by bunky at 9:40 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
Education in the U.S. plays a somewhat similar role; it's a stand-in for class, though it can override it. Most members of the professional class (graduate degrees) would be dismayed if one of their children (with similar degrees) married a high school dropout, unless thedropout had managed to better himself or herself in some way, such as getting a GED and graduating from college, or starting a successful business.
The phenomenal expense of higher (college and graduate) education in the U.S. is one of the reasons for this. It's societally sick and unhealthy, but I don't know what Americans' internalized covert class detection systems would do if higher education overnight were to become free or very low cost, the way it often is in the UK and Europe. Of course, it would still be hard to get intoIvy schools.
posted by bad grammar at 11:45 PM on October 27, 2009
The phenomenal expense of higher (college and graduate) education in the U.S. is one of the reasons for this. It's societally sick and unhealthy, but I don't know what Americans' internalized covert class detection systems would do if higher education overnight were to become free or very low cost, the way it often is in the UK and Europe. Of course, it would still be hard to get intoIvy schools.
posted by bad grammar at 11:45 PM on October 27, 2009
Best answer: I honestly can't think of anything more awesome than an attractive girl that gets on well with me who also has higher earning potential than I do. Honestly its hard for me to see why you even have a question here.
That said, I'm a firm believer that the "league" concept does exist. I also believe its possible to net a catch that's out of your league. That's one achievement you'll enjoy the rest of your lives.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:27 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
That said, I'm a firm believer that the "league" concept does exist. I also believe its possible to net a catch that's out of your league. That's one achievement you'll enjoy the rest of your lives.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:27 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
When was the last time you saw an exective date or marry someone from "the projects"?Except that the OP's family is lower-middle/ upper-working class, not from the projects. And the woman he's interested in comes from a professional background, not the super-rich. I can't think of any instances in which a CEO married someone from the projects, but there are plenty of cross-class marriages in my own family that involve people from lower-middle-class/ skilled-blue-collar backgrounds marrying people from professional backgrounds. One of them is my great-aunt and uncle (she's the daughter of a carpenter who grew up with no money; he's the son of a successful business owner), and they've been married for more than 60 years.
I think that bad grammar is more on the money about education being a de-facto class sorting mechanism in the U.S.
posted by craichead at 5:17 AM on October 28, 2009
People here like to pretend money and social status are irrelevant. So if you are looking for validation, you came to the right place.
Education in the U.S. plays a somewhat similar role; it's a stand-in for class, though it can override it.
Americans like to think there is no class system here. There is.
Social status matters. Money matters. There's no pizza delivery boy or retail sales clerk here marrying a Walton or a Whitney or a Mellon.
So, unless the disparity is wide, there should be no problem.
Just remember that money is what breaks up a lot of marriages.
posted by Zambrano at 9:45 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Education in the U.S. plays a somewhat similar role; it's a stand-in for class, though it can override it.
Americans like to think there is no class system here. There is.
Social status matters. Money matters. There's no pizza delivery boy or retail sales clerk here marrying a Walton or a Whitney or a Mellon.
So, unless the disparity is wide, there should be no problem.
Just remember that money is what breaks up a lot of marriages.
posted by Zambrano at 9:45 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I know one of the answers above is mine, but still, don't I win some kind of little bronze Jessamyn figurine for getting 50 plus? :D
If anyone is still following the saga, we are going for Kaffee und Kuchen tomorrow :D Pray for not rain...
posted by KMH at 3:19 AM on October 30, 2009
If anyone is still following the saga, we are going for Kaffee und Kuchen tomorrow :D Pray for not rain...
posted by KMH at 3:19 AM on October 30, 2009
Best answer: Just in case anyone looks back at this... the wedding is this May...!
posted by KMH at 9:05 AM on April 19, 2010 [66 favorites]
posted by KMH at 9:05 AM on April 19, 2010 [66 favorites]
holy shit
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:17 AM on April 19, 2010
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:17 AM on April 19, 2010
Holy shit, indeed. I had hoped you had kissed her, you uptight British fool. You apparently did it quite well. ;-)
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:54 PM on April 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:54 PM on April 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Nicely done.
posted by chunking express at 5:39 AM on April 20, 2010
posted by chunking express at 5:39 AM on April 20, 2010
Welcome to the big leagues.
posted by chinston at 7:00 AM on April 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by chinston at 7:00 AM on April 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
Huzzah!
posted by ocherdraco at 9:55 AM on April 21, 2010
posted by ocherdraco at 9:55 AM on April 21, 2010
Wow — how great! May you have many very happy years together!
posted by Lexica at 10:17 AM on April 21, 2010
posted by Lexica at 10:17 AM on April 21, 2010
From someone who is married to an uptight British fool, best wishes for a happy future!
posted by tizzie at 11:20 AM on April 21, 2010
posted by tizzie at 11:20 AM on April 21, 2010
Have you showed her this webpage? Or are you going to wait til after the marriage or after an anniversary?
posted by jasper411 at 12:31 PM on April 21, 2010
posted by jasper411 at 12:31 PM on April 21, 2010
Hurray! This feels like MeFi's "Reader, I married him" moment!
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:57 PM on April 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:57 PM on April 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Wow that was quick. Date in October, marriage in May. Good luck!
posted by wilful at 5:35 PM on April 21, 2010
posted by wilful at 5:35 PM on April 21, 2010
For what it's worth, I met a girl in December, got engaged in June and married her on the 29th of that year. Like 12 month date-to-marriage. It's worked out wonderfully. Best of luck!
posted by GilloD at 6:11 PM on April 21, 2010
posted by GilloD at 6:11 PM on April 21, 2010
How lovely! Congratulations!
posted by so much modern time at 6:52 PM on April 21, 2010
posted by so much modern time at 6:52 PM on April 21, 2010
Also, since you're getting married now, and you might start a family, take heed from that dad on the subject of having kids:
"A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."
posted by anniecat at 7:30 AM on April 22, 2010 [5 favorites]
"A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."
posted by anniecat at 7:30 AM on April 22, 2010 [5 favorites]
Wow that is some turn around. within six months of being afraid of even dating, getting married. Way to slay that demon (sincerely). Congratulations.
posted by djduckie at 10:04 AM on April 23, 2010
posted by djduckie at 10:04 AM on April 23, 2010
*throws rice*
posted by magstheaxe at 1:48 PM on April 23, 2010
posted by magstheaxe at 1:48 PM on April 23, 2010
That's gotta be worth some kind of little bronze Jessamyn figurine. Congratulations!
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:35 PM on April 24, 2010
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:35 PM on April 24, 2010
Congrats! I hope you two appreciate always appreciate each other as much as you do now.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:43 PM on April 25, 2010
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:43 PM on April 25, 2010
What date in May?
posted by malibustacey9999 at 1:52 AM on April 28, 2010
posted by malibustacey9999 at 1:52 AM on April 28, 2010
Congratulations! So pleased you popped back into the thread to announce it. Woot!
posted by meerkatty at 9:03 AM on April 28, 2010
posted by meerkatty at 9:03 AM on April 28, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yes!
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:35 AM on October 27, 2009 [14 favorites]