Divorce, even if nothing is bad?

October 24, 2009 9:24 PM

I (male) have been married for a number of years (~10). Nothing is necessarily bad about our marriage, but I've felt that we've been lacking passion since before we were married. It just never seemed to matter enough to be worth a divorce.. except that it does matter in the end.

I'll try to keep this reasonably short.

My wife and I have similar interests, went to school together (civil engineering), hang out together just great. We're very good friends.

At the beginning of our relationship, we started as friends, and she did not want to start dating as she didn't feel that way about me. I persisted (for whatever reason it is that you fixate on someone), and we eventually started dating. We went to movies, we played video games, we went to art shows, etc etc.. we have many of the same interests.

We never had a period of time at the beginning of some relationships where we had sex more than a few times a week. Over the years, it has only grown more infrequent (sometimes once or twice every couple months). I don't remember how much I was attracted physically to her before we dated, but she quickly gained weight in our relationship, and I haven't been attracted to her since. I like her as a person, but I never want to have sex just because she looks good. It's generally more my hormones or she pushes for it.

In terms of being attracted, I've tried tricking my mind in many ways, I've tried "just having sex", I've tried looking at porn first.. I just like skinny / fit girls. And I like my wife, and she's sensitive about her weight. She's asked before (in somewhat of a horrified tone of voice) if I wasn't attracted to her anymore because she was fat. I denied it and had sex.. every time she asks. I couldn't imagine how much it would hurt her to agree.

She's thought about losing weight sometimes, I invite her exercising, but she just doesn't have much motivation. We've argued about it a few times (me, trying not to be too pushy), and she says she just doesn't care enough, and it's too hard, etc etc.

My wife and I were almost divorced around 6 years ago due to a relationship she had with another male. I ended up with another woman for a few months, and we really hit it off physically. I was pleased to see that I was not lacking hormones and a sex drive. My wife and I ended up getting back together due to multiple "relationship fixing" books. I assumed at the time that we had just had problems communicating. (the issue at the time was us spending too much time online, not enough time with each other, etc)

Now I'm thinking that I should have recognized that there are other important things missing from the relationship, not so easily fixed with a book.

We've been planning on having kids for awhile (I just turned 32), and I'm concerned. Our relationship isn't horrible, but it isn't great. She has a job, I have a job, we have no kids. If we divorce now, we split assets. If we have kids, the entire situation becomes much more complicated.

I've decided at times to just stop thinking about divorce and continue on with life, but it pops up later when I find myself feeling dissatisfied. Part of the reason I'm posting now is that I feel much more satisfied about everything else in my life lately. I like my work, I like my friends, I like my fitness level, etc. I feel that I've been really improving myself over the last few years, and my marriage is lagging behind.

Questions / problems:

I'm not sure if I'm only not attracted to her due to her weight. If this is the only problem, then I should really tell her the truth it seems, and give her the choice to lose weight. But what if I tell her to lose weight, and she does, and I'm still not attracted? I also don't feel that forcing her to lose weight is a good relationship strategy.. first, it seems very rude. Secondly, what if she gains back the weight in 5 years?

Assuming it's not just her weight, what else leads you to feel passionately about someone? I "like" my wife a lot. I feel extremely empathic about her. I protect her. But some people drool over their spouses, say how wonderful they are. I'd really love to feel that if it's possible for me. But what if it's not? Do you feel that everyone has a chance for something better than a "good" marriage?

As long as I'm making this long post, I'd love to hear from people who either have a passionate marriage, or didn't and do now..

posted by anonymous to human relations (34 comments total)

I'm not sure if I'm only not attracted to her due to her weight. If this is the only problem, then I should really tell her the truth it seems, and give her the choice to lose weight. But what if I tell her to lose weight, and she does, and I'm still not attracted? I also don't feel that forcing her to lose weight is a good relationship strategy.. first, it seems very rude. Secondly, what if she gains back the weight in 5 years?

I think it is widely accepted that people don't lose weight, long-term. If you are counting on her to lose the weight and keep it off ... forget about it. And your worry that it might not "fix" whatever problems your marriage has is a legitimate worry.

This sounds like a situation in which you simply are not attracted to her -- nor her to you. You deserve better, she deserves better.
posted by jayder at 9:40 PM on October 24 [1 favorite]

Besides a lack of passion, it doesn't sound like either of you is in love in this relationship. I doubt her weight is the main issue. You both are young. Start over. Find someone you are crazy about.
posted by whiskeyspider at 10:05 PM on October 24 [3 favorites]

My wife and I have been together for over 18 years. When we first started dating, she was very thin and I found her incredibly attractive.

During our relationship, we've had three children and she's put on weight - to the point where she is a lot heavier than when we first met. But what my idea of what makes a woman attractive has changed as her body shape has changed. In fact, I'm more attracted to her now than when we first met.

The point of this is that when people are truly in love, they love each other for who that person is, and for whom they become. The love continues to grow and develop, just as each involved does.

I think you owe it to yourself and to your wife to be completely honest. You need to spend some time thinking about what you want, and you need to discuss this with your wife. Think honestly if you were ever truly in love with her. And if you were, think why you used to be in love, because it doesn't sound as if you are anymore. It sounds as if she is your friend that you wish you could find attractive.
posted by doh ray mii at 10:05 PM on October 24 [14 favorites]

If we have kids, the entire situation becomes much more complicated.

This seems to me like a red flag. You might not have reached the point of thinking about the prospect of having kids primarily in terms of them chaining you to this relationship, but it feels as if you're not far off, and that sets up a situation where you either stay in a holding pattern or start a family -- to change the dynamic, to see if it brings you closer together, etc. -- and potentially regret it. That's not healthy for either of you.

To put it another way: what you got on your hands is a dead shark.
posted by holgate at 10:11 PM on October 24

You have the right to be happy. She has the right to be happy. She already had an extramarital relationship. You already split up once. You are not attracted to her physically. Sounds like a permanent split is highly indicated. But perhaps there are practical difficulties doing what is highly indicated. So, how hard would it be to split? Let's see...

Both of you are still young. You have no kids. You both have good jobs. You can easily divide your assets.

I don't know - from this outsider's perspective, it sounds like a no-brainer. Consult a lawyer, and get on with your life. The sooner the better. Good luck.
posted by VikingSword at 10:27 PM on October 24 [15 favorites]

Being afraid of hurting other people's feelings is not a good reason to stay in a marriage. Have a long frank talk with your wife - perhaps she isn't in love with you anymore either and is having the exact same thoughts about you. I really doubt this is just a weight loss issue - it sounds like you never had much chemistry to begin with.

Props on asking these questions before you bring a child into this.
posted by benzenedream at 10:29 PM on October 24 [3 favorites]

While I disagree that people don't lose weight long term (some do, some don't), it doesn't sound like this is really the issue. It sounds like you are good friends who lack a certain amount of sexual chemistry. That's no one's fault, but staying in an unsatisfying marriage, even if only one person knows that there is an issue, is not fair to either one of you. As unpleasant and painful as a divorce can be, you will probably both be happier in the long run if you go your separate ways. Best of luck to you both.
posted by katemcd at 10:51 PM on October 24 [1 favorite]

Are you open to the possibility that things might change between you? That sex and intimacy could be improved to the point that your marriage is actually good? Since books saved your marriage before, if you are willing to invest in trying to make things really work between you, I suggest that you try one more book before you give up. It is Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch.

To give you an idea of his approach, here are some excepts from reviews on Amazon:
"The root of marital conflict is not failure to communicate. Rather, it is accurate communication between incompletely individuated people. Individuation means the ability to connect with another, even in conflict, without losing one's own sense of self. When individuation is lacking, members of a couple must find ways to keep their distance from their partners in order not to lose their sense of self. This distancing is the root of marital (or other committed couple) discord."

Not being able to talk about your problems for fear of hurting the other is sign that you and your wife could both benefit from learning how to be strong enough in yourself that you can be open without being afraid of your partner's response - whatever it might be. Being able to take risks in the relationship also means taking risks in the bedroom which opens up possibilities for sex and intimacy that were not an option when you were too afraid of the other's response to talk about what you would like.

"Schnarch's fundamental lesson is differentiation--the often threatening process of defining yourself as separate from your partner, which inevitably draws you closer to your partner than you ever dreamed possible. Schnarch uses dramatic therapy sessions to illustrate how differentiation doesn't just cure sexual dysfunction; it helps couples reach the mind-blowing heights of their sexual potential. A groundbreaking and truly erotic discussion of adult sexuality.
posted by metahawk at 10:51 PM on October 24 [4 favorites]

Prune the withered fruit off the vine, dude.
posted by KathrynT at 10:56 PM on October 24 [1 favorite]

I think it is widely accepted that people don't lose weight, long-term.

As someone who kept off gobs of weight for more than a decade, I disagree. However, people don't lose and keep off weight for someone else. If she's happy with herself, she's not going to lose weight for you. You don't say how much weight she's gained, but people's bodies change as they age. I'm sure you look different that you did when you met your wife.

Some people would be fine in the marriage you describe. It sounds like you really want a partner for whom you have passion and lust + friendship and companionship. Do you think you can you regain or create that with your wife? If not, it's time to discuss ending your marriage.
posted by 26.2 at 11:23 PM on October 24 [2 favorites]

It sounds like it may be check-out time. Stop even entertaining the notion of kids within the current state of affairs. Also dropping the "you're fat" bomb is usually a baaaaad idea and here it sounds like it may not even be true; it sounds like passion was never present and any need for even just plain physicality has evaporated.

Your love life could be more.
posted by codswallop at 11:26 PM on October 24 [2 favorites]

I think you've gotten really good feedback in this thread. Pay attention to what you've written, maybe read it aloud in the presence of a trusted friend (not only trusted but fit, someone on their way home from the gym maybe, so you don't get their fears/judgments of you for wanting what you want), and then look in their eyes. Pay attention to what you see.

Then hire yourself a therapist -- it's deadly hard to walk away, ESPECIALLY when you do love someone, when you're such good friends, when you're partnered on so many things and have been together for such a long while; you might find that you're not able to walk without the support of a third party who knows all the things that we now know and will help you hold yourself to account, keep you focused on what your intentions are. Once you know for sure what they are.

Then hire a lawyer.

Good luck, and have fun on the other side.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:30 PM on October 24

Telling someone they must change their appearance for you to love them is rude and controlling. Don't even begin to do that if the weight is the root issue. Go find a woman whose genes indicate a high metabolism if it's that big a deal. In love, especially if she's had the weight that long, it wouldn't really matter.

However before you do that, you are in the time frame of a seven year itch. Maybe the first bout of cheating was the first one and this is the next one. When these happen, you have to completely change your lifestyle or find another one. Big vacation or move or go on a series of dates or something.

And yes, you do have a communication problem. You should be telling your wife directly that your feel stale and unhappy in your relationship. Give her a chance to give her theories, since she has an inside view that no one on this here internet can even begin to have. But certainly make a definitive choice before kids.
posted by itsonreserve at 12:19 AM on October 25

Also consider this: if she does want to have biological kids, and if you're unsure you want to have them with her ... a woman in her early 30s has limited time to find a new, more compatible partner and get busy. (Of course every woman's biological clock is different, but it usually gets much more difficult post-40.)

As a dude, you've got more time to meet a new partner if you want kids. But the longer you put off the inevitable, the harder you're making it for her.
posted by lisa g at 12:57 AM on October 25 [7 favorites]

Personal experience only:

I was in a relationship for 10+ years that sounds very similar to what you describe: I very much loved and cared for her, we got on great and we enjoyed all our time together. We both thought that it was THE relationship and we were going to spend our lives together ... etc etc.

But ... there wasn't any passion and that meant that ultimately the relationship was doomed. IMHO, if you find yourself thinking: "If only she was a bit more/less ", it's already time to go. I loved her, but I was thinking things like that, as much as I'm ashamed to admit it now.

So, we split up, both of us taking a risk on the belief that there had to be more out there. It was quite a big risk as what we had was really good; a lot better than many relationships around us. But we both wanted more. Being honest about that meant it was an amicable break and we're still good friends.

So, fast-forward a bit, now I'm with somebody else and things are different. Everything is as good as (if not better) than in my previous relationship, but PLUS their's passion and that makes all the difference. When we met it was just a breathless, verge of a heart-attack, whirl of delirium and excitement like I'd never experienced before. And yes, while that settled down to an extent as we started to make a life together and went through some of it's more mundane aspects, that's still all there, even after five plus years.

I'm not talking about passion (just) as a physical thing, but rather, passion as love; not the caring and protecting kind (that's there too, obviously), but the kind where you just think that every goddamn thing about this person is just so unbelievably great that you wouldn't want to change anything about them at all. It's a relief to feel that way about the person that you're with as you know, through and through, that this is the right relationship for you.

I'm not for one second saying that it's 100% wonderful all the time; it's a relationship and that means working at it. But if you asked me whether it was worth taking the jump I would answer: hell yes it was.
posted by BinarySolo at 3:17 AM on October 25 [7 favorites]

Yes, having a child will chain you to life to this person. You're only 32. Get the hell out of there and give both of you the freedom you deserve before it is too late.

You sound miserable, as does your marriage.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:29 AM on October 25

Oh, and while none of us can speak to whether it matters "in the end," do you really want to wait to find out?
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:30 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]

The title of this post is: "Divorce, even if nothing is bad?"

And the answer to that question is: "Marriage therapy, because you have nothing to lose."

Awesome sex is self-perpetuating. OK, awesome sex with someone who's an asshole is a take it or leave it thing, but if you're having brilliant sex with someone you like and love, it tends to foster pair bonding and melt your brain chemistry into a very nice state of nirvana. All of that makes your partner red-hot to you, regardless of appearance. So genuinely, I do not think the heart of this problem is "my wife weighs too much."

You owe it to your wife to sit down with some professional help and some honesty and find out if this marriage can be saved. I do not believe that people who try their hardest to fix things and end up splitting are bad people or anything, but I do think "We bought two books six years ago and that didn't work and I'm leaving" is a lame cop-out.

So: "I want to live my life with real passion, and I don't think we feel that for one another and I want to see if we can fix it; will you go to marriage therapy with me?" would be a good place to start here. Genuinely, you may discover new things about each other and a new sexual spark that brings you closer to what you want out of your relationship. Or you may not - but if you don't, at least you gave your marriage and your wife your best effort.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:51 AM on October 25 [8 favorites]

N'thing ending the relationship. In my opinion, if there is any doubt whatsoever when you think about children, that is a blazing red flag not to proceed. 'If there's doubt, there's no doubt,' as my non-existent wise old auntie used to tell me. Don't involve kids in this. Any dissatisfaction you have with the relationship will - no matter how much you don't want it to - damage your children. Please don't tread down this path.

That said, you do care for this person. Don't underestimate the pain you will cause her, nor the disparity that will exist between you once you have ended the relationship. Men generally become more desirable with age... overweight 32 year-old women as a rule are not highly desirable. It's a fact of life which she probably knows. By ending the relationship you may quite simply cause irrevocable damage her life. And although it is not your responsibility to not crush her heart... it will hurt you a lot, because you care for her.

Essentially, you are weighing your own personal needs against the guilt you feel as a compassionate human being.

Good luck.
posted by schmichael at 4:05 AM on October 25 [3 favorites]

Please do not bring children into this picture.
posted by Elsie at 4:21 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]

overweight 32 year-old women as a rule are not highly desirable.

That's absurd. The woman already initiated an affair (yeah she was in her 20's then, but she was still overweight. 32 is YOUNG.)

Your wife doesn't need you to be with somebody; she's already demontrated that - she was the first one to have an affair!

Absolutely positively do not even think of having children. Children don't need to see that their parents aren't in love with each other.

Which is the main point. You didn't fall out of love with your wife. You have never been in love with her. That's the main feature here. A book about individuation and passion, or anything else that's about developing passion, is not going to work, because you have never really been attracted to her. And you were attracted to the woman you had an affair with, so you know things can be more exciting.

I agree with the idea of counseling in the sense that counseling can be a good way to help you get out of your marriage. But there is no point to going to counseling unless you are going to be very very honest as you have been with us, and somehow I don't think you're going to be (this is something for you to think about, though).

There really is no argument here for staying with your wife. Get on with your life and LET HER get on with hers.
posted by DMelanogaster at 5:35 AM on October 25 [3 favorites]

I was married for 10+ years to someone who, like you, I don't think I ever really loved. After ten years I had to admit that I felt miserable and trapped. I couldn't talk to him about it so I thought really hard about how I felt. First it was all the little surface reasons; bored, he says this, he does that. Then as I dug deeper and was really honest with myself I realized it was less about him and more about me, I was just plain unhappy. There was no chemistry at all, never had been, and that is what I need to be happy. Yes, we went to therapy. No, it didn't fix anything, but I had to make the effort for his sake. He took it pretty hard. He kicked me out to 'think about it' for a couple months. After two months away from him I felt better than I ever had and would have died before going back to that situation, so I got a lawyer and ended it. Personally, the moment I packed up and left I felt better and have not had one moment of regret in the two years since. He was so not right for me that I have not once missed him or my life with him. It's your call but from the tone of your post I think you have already made up your mind and are just looking for support. Good luck whichever way you decide to go, it will be hard.
posted by stubborn at 6:21 AM on October 25 [3 favorites]

A friend of mine was seeing a therapist once, after she and her husband had been working through an affair. They were discussing children and the therapist said "Children aren't the point of marriage. They aren't the point of life. They are a symptom of a good marriage. They are a consequence of happiness." It always stuck with me.

In my opinion, divorcing a good person (whom you like, but whom you married without good reason) is not a failure or an insult and does not make you a bad person. But you should never divorce without sitting down with your spouse and explaining why you are considering it. If you're not experiencing strife and you just walk in and say "Bye, I'm getting a divorce" there's a giant subtext of "you mean so little me that I never bothered to tell you I was unhappy enough to leave." It seems from your post that you respect your wife much more than that.

Although you both deserve (as mentioned often above) to be happy complete people without the other's input, you share a marriage and decisions about it need to be made together, without either blindsiding the other. As also mentioned above, I think you need to talk about the lack of good sex, but you shouldn't frame it as an issue of her appearance.

Good luck.
posted by crush-onastick at 7:02 AM on October 25 [8 favorites]

I agree with lisa g, if your wife wants kids you need to end this now so that she has time to find someone else.
posted by mareli at 7:30 AM on October 25

This is what happens when we forget that men and women can be friends. Sounds like you accidentally married someone you should be best friends with.

End it now. If you are both ready for friendship with each other in a few years, great. If not, that's the price you pay for the mistake.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:47 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]

My wife and I ended up getting back together due to multiple "relationship fixing" books.

This one sentence in your original post is very telling, particularly your choice of the phrase "ended up." If you had written something like:

"My wife and I made a choice to work through that episode because we loved each other."

or

"I'm only human; that affair hurt me an awful lot. But I decided that, in the end, I just loved my wife too much to end our marriage over a stupid fling."

or even

"With the help of some good advice in relationship-fixing books, my wife and I were able to repair our marriage."

I might have counseled a more cautious path, of working on the relationship, etc. But that one particular sentence makes you sound like a pair of reluctant acquaintances getting introduced a little too eagerly by a third party who thinks you'd make a cute couple. And if that's the kind of tone you're striking after a decade together, I don't see much hope for your marriage.

Sorry.
posted by jason's_planet at 8:18 AM on October 25 [2 favorites]

Divorce, even if nothing is bad?

Marriage isn't supposed to be about the absence of the bad.

It's about the presence of the absolutely wonderful, of a gorgeous human being who makes you feel blessed to be alive.

Anonymous, you have the right to a relationship -- indeed, to a life -- that is full of joy and enchantment, not just free of the glaringly awful.

Go for it.
posted by jason's_planet at 8:33 AM on October 25 [2 favorites]

So, first, everything you've said in this paragraph is really, really important:

"We've been planning on having kids for awhile (I just turned 32), and I'm concerned. Our relationship isn't horrible, but it isn't great. She has a job, I have a job, we have no kids. If we divorce now, we split assets. If we have kids, the entire situation becomes much more complicated."

However, forget "more complicated", and instead think "really bad for the children." Do not have children while you feel like this, and especially do not have children in a misguided attempt to save the marriage, formulate common interests or anything else like that. It's totally unfair to the children, and to both of you.

As for the fat thing, I can say this from personal experience: if you are passionate and connected with someone, the weight won't matter; just as importantly, if you are passionate and connected with someone and they let themselves go/behave badly and so on, you'll be torn between your feelings for them and your frustration with their behavior. Your reaction seems to be much more "meh"; not wanting to hurt her feelings isn't an indicator of passion, it's an indicator that you're trying to be nice and are resigning yourself to the whole thing. That's unfair for both of you.

And, as it's been said above, talk to her about your lack of passion for her -- odds are she feels the same way, and even if she doesn't, it's something that's real and valid so needs to be out in the open. Just remember that her weight is not the cause of your lack of interest, and I can guarantee (again from personal experience) that if the passion isn't there, her losing the weight will not fix the problem. It's a red herring.
posted by davejay at 8:52 AM on October 25

Loving someone isn't the same as being in love with them. Seems cliche and a given, but it sounds like you care about each other a good deal, love each other, even, but this doesn't appear to be Love with a capital L. If you haven't experienced that yet, it is unlikely to appear, regardless of sex, weight, jobs, houses, etc. It's nice to have a best friend, but in a marriage, it seems to me that being in love with that best friend is key.
posted by cachondeo45 at 10:16 AM on October 25

Your wife doesn't need you to be with somebody; she's already demontrated that - she was the first one to have an affair!

Finding a guy willing to have sex a few times with her is quite different from finding someone willing to commit to her long-term. I'm not giving an opinion on what her chances of finding a quality husband are after a divorce ... but having an affair really is not indicative of her value on the market of potential female spouses.
posted by jayder at 10:39 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]

You know what's missing in your relationship, OP? It's not hot sex, it's not physical fitness, it's not anything like that.

It's brutal honesty, on both sides, and you're both going to have to acquire it eventually. I recommend you do that in a counselor's office or a lawyer's office, either way.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 12:34 PM on October 25

This is what a "settled for" marriage is like. Take note, folks. Everyone is perfectly pleasant, yet there's no sexual interest and you both sound bored. It kinda sounds like "divorce 'cause we're both so ho-hum about each other on a romantic level," but...well, you both could do better.

Frankly, you two sound like you should have (or just should be) stayed platonic friends rather than husband and wife. Please don't have kids with someone you don't feel that strongly about. That binds you together for life and it sounds like you two weren't meant to be bound like that in that way here.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:47 PM on October 25 [3 favorites]

I was in this same marriage for 4 years (we lived together for 7). I was the wife who gained a lot of weight, but I had gained most of it before we got married (not sure if that really matters). The husband ended up gaining about 50lbs too eventually.

He and I were never "on fire" for each other. We had a comfortable relationship and could talk for hours, but the chemistry was never there even before I gained weight. We had other problems too (him refusing to get and keep a job, me not being able to get control of spending money), but the sex problem was there from before we even got married. This is embarrassing to admit now but we felt like we were "above" needing the sex to have a good marriage.

5 years after the divorce was final (I filed, he would never have filed), I have 0 regrets. Nthing jenfullmoon - she is right on the "settling." It may be comfortable and, like my former marriage, it doesn't sound "bad", it's just not good. Stop settling and find your happiness. It is totally worth it.
posted by getawaysticks at 8:55 AM on October 26

We never had a period of time at the beginning of some relationships where we had sex more than a few times a week. Over the years, it has only grown more infrequent (sometimes once or twice every couple months). I don't remember how much I was attracted physically to her before we dated, but she quickly gained weight in our relationship, and I haven't been attracted to her since.

You never had passion. You never had chemistry. As someone said above, the weight is a red herring. If you are a person who values passion and chemistry (and it sounds as if you are), this is too important to overlook.

There are people who want and treasure "companion marriages," in which their partner is their best friend, conversation flows, mutual interests abound, disagreements are readily resolved, trust is honored, and sexual activity is virtually nil and may feel obligatory or routine when it does occur.

There are other people for whom physical intimacy is a critical part of emotional intimacy. They would, in many cases, choose a relationship with fewer mutual interests or more difficult disagreements if the chemistry and passion are there, over a "companion marriage" setup.

Neither is wrong or bad. It's just a matter of knowing your needs and what it takes to fulfill them. Your needs aren't getting met. Her needs aren't getting met. If passion wasn't there in the early stages, it won't be there ten-plus years down the road. Be kind to both of you and move on.
posted by notashroom at 10:49 AM on October 26 [1 favorite]