What do I do now (with regard to law school applications)?
October 16, 2009 8:50 PM
What do I do now (with regard to law school applications)?
So, I retook the LSAT in hopes of improving on my original score (166). I scored exactly the same. Now I'm not sure what to do-should retake it a third time? Just submit my applications early (end of this month) and hope for the best?
I have to say, I don't really feel up to retaking right now, though that could be due to how cruddy I feel about my score. I'm trying to get into HYS, so below a 170 isn't really acceptable.
Other stats: 3.8-ish GPA, URM (under represented minority), and good softs (nonprofit work, good letters of recommendation, etc.).
I have to say, I don't really feel up to retaking right now, though that could be due to how cruddy I feel about my score. I'm trying to get into HYS, so below a 170 isn't really acceptable.
Other stats: 3.8-ish GPA, URM (under represented minority), and good softs (nonprofit work, good letters of recommendation, etc.).
With those numbers and being a URM, you're pretty solid for a good range of schools. If you're really concerned about your those numbers, you must be aiming pretty high. If you've taken the LSAT twice with the same score, waiting until December and taking it again is not likely to improve your score enough to help you more than applying early will. The LSAT results should tell you what percentage of people with the same score did better taking it again. I'd guess it's not a very high percentage, and that's for the second time.
When I applied last year, there was a certain school I wanted to get into that was a bit of a reach. With my numbers+softs, I probably could have gotten in if I'd applied in September or October (based on stats I'd seen), but by the time my application was sent in January, I was flat out rejected, no waitlist (and it took 3 months to hear back because of the backlog of apps that develops).
If you look at those numbers websites, people with certain numbers will get into a school pre-November, and people with the same numbers will start to get WL and then eventually rejections as the cycle winds down. That rule of thumb doesn't work for every school, but it seems to for many.
I'm not an admissions person, obviously, but I did apply to a ton of schools all over the place in terms of ranking/location last year, so if you have any questions about specific schools, if I have experience with them, I'd be happy to try to give you more info.
posted by ishotjr at 10:06 PM on October 16, 2009
When I applied last year, there was a certain school I wanted to get into that was a bit of a reach. With my numbers+softs, I probably could have gotten in if I'd applied in September or October (based on stats I'd seen), but by the time my application was sent in January, I was flat out rejected, no waitlist (and it took 3 months to hear back because of the backlog of apps that develops).
If you look at those numbers websites, people with certain numbers will get into a school pre-November, and people with the same numbers will start to get WL and then eventually rejections as the cycle winds down. That rule of thumb doesn't work for every school, but it seems to for many.
I'm not an admissions person, obviously, but I did apply to a ton of schools all over the place in terms of ranking/location last year, so if you have any questions about specific schools, if I have experience with them, I'd be happy to try to give you more info.
posted by ishotjr at 10:06 PM on October 16, 2009
Even for the top schools, 170 is an average, which means that the acceptance scale starts at 160. Put forth your personal statement and everything else and make it as solid as can be and apply. Let your whole package speak for itself.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:06 PM on October 16, 2009
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:06 PM on October 16, 2009
In my time, 3.8 and 166 was a fair shot at HYS if you were white or Asian, and would have made you a slam dunk if a URM. In the heat of a recession, application levels are going to be higher, but you still are in a decent position. Add two or three of the next-ranked schools and hope for the best: the career prospects of a URM graduating from Chicago or NYU are still superb.
posted by MattD at 5:06 AM on October 17, 2009
posted by MattD at 5:06 AM on October 17, 2009
I doubt that you have this information available, but I would focus on the standard deviation of scores, not the average score.
You may find, for example, that a majority of the applicants admitted have a score within one standard deviation of the mean, and that this standard deviation is within +/- 5 points. In which case your score would be within that range.
Consider this an object lesson in using average to infer anything about a distribution.
posted by dfriedman at 5:35 AM on October 17, 2009
You may find, for example, that a majority of the applicants admitted have a score within one standard deviation of the mean, and that this standard deviation is within +/- 5 points. In which case your score would be within that range.
Consider this an object lesson in using average to infer anything about a distribution.
posted by dfriedman at 5:35 AM on October 17, 2009
So, I retook the LSAT in hopes of improving on my original score (166). I scored exactly the same. Now I'm not sure what to do-should retake it a third time?
No, definitely not.
Devote that energy to doing you law school applications and keeping up your college grades (I'm assuming you're in college since you don't specify).
I recommend taking another look at the 25th to 75th percentiles of the top schools along with their GPAs. URM, 3.8, top-notch credentials and recommendations ... and you're worried about your chances? You're way ahead of 99% of applicants! At this point you have an amazing application and should just submit it and let the chips fall where they may.
Considering that you took it twice and got the same score, you could easily get below 166 the third time. That wouldn't look very good.
What makes you think you'd do significantly better the third time, having gotten exactly the same score twice and feeling unmotivated to take it again? Presumably, the second time, you were under the mistaken belief that you'd do much better. Don't make the mistake again.
(Full disclosure: I took the LSAT twice and went to Cornell Law School. I had a similar average score as yours, not an URM, lower GPA.)
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:52 AM on October 17, 2009
No, definitely not.
Devote that energy to doing you law school applications and keeping up your college grades (I'm assuming you're in college since you don't specify).
I recommend taking another look at the 25th to 75th percentiles of the top schools along with their GPAs. URM, 3.8, top-notch credentials and recommendations ... and you're worried about your chances? You're way ahead of 99% of applicants! At this point you have an amazing application and should just submit it and let the chips fall where they may.
Considering that you took it twice and got the same score, you could easily get below 166 the third time. That wouldn't look very good.
What makes you think you'd do significantly better the third time, having gotten exactly the same score twice and feeling unmotivated to take it again? Presumably, the second time, you were under the mistaken belief that you'd do much better. Don't make the mistake again.
(Full disclosure: I took the LSAT twice and went to Cornell Law School. I had a similar average score as yours, not an URM, lower GPA.)
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:52 AM on October 17, 2009
The LSAT score is not the be all end all of your application. My sister's score was very similar to yours, and with her strong overall application, she was admitted to Yale Law.
posted by ocherdraco at 10:15 AM on October 17, 2009
posted by ocherdraco at 10:15 AM on October 17, 2009
As long as you apply to a range of schools, from ones that accept hardly anyone to those that accept quite a few students, you should be fine. You shouldn't be disappointed if you don't get into the highest-ranked institution--you can make the most out of wherever you end up.
No.
It would be almost impossible to overstate how tough the legal hiring market is right now.
I'm at HLS, and know a number of people here who got completely shut out at on-campus interviewing. Something like a third of 2Ls at Columbia have no job for next summer (and, by implication, upon graduation). That figure is more like 50% at Michigan.
Those numbers should scare the shit out of someone preparing to take on $150,000 of non-dischargeable debt.
Legal hiring will have picked up by the time you're doing OCI in the fall of 2011, but it's probably NEVER going back to what it was, and it's hard to tell how much better it will be for the Class of 2013. Being a URM will be an enormous help in both the admissions and job hunt processes, but you're right to be very focused on going to the best school possible.
In This Economy, think very hard before going to a school that's not HYS or, at least, CCN. Do. Not. Go. to a school that's not T14, unless you're getting a full ride.
posted by ewiar at 10:21 AM on October 17, 2009
No.
It would be almost impossible to overstate how tough the legal hiring market is right now.
I'm at HLS, and know a number of people here who got completely shut out at on-campus interviewing. Something like a third of 2Ls at Columbia have no job for next summer (and, by implication, upon graduation). That figure is more like 50% at Michigan.
Those numbers should scare the shit out of someone preparing to take on $150,000 of non-dischargeable debt.
Legal hiring will have picked up by the time you're doing OCI in the fall of 2011, but it's probably NEVER going back to what it was, and it's hard to tell how much better it will be for the Class of 2013. Being a URM will be an enormous help in both the admissions and job hunt processes, but you're right to be very focused on going to the best school possible.
In This Economy, think very hard before going to a school that's not HYS or, at least, CCN. Do. Not. Go. to a school that's not T14, unless you're getting a full ride.
posted by ewiar at 10:21 AM on October 17, 2009
ewiar is fear-mongering. This is a very Ivy viewpoint. If you're looking at Biglaw, then what he/she said is somewhat true, but there will be JOBS for the class of 2013 outside of T-10. You just may not come out making $150k+.
Also, not all law schools are going to put you $150k in debt. Not by a long shot. I'm getting out under $80k. A fair number of my 3L friends are in the market for government, other public interest, and small-mid firm jobs and are doing fine. Maybe I'm just not scared because biglaw sounds like my own personal hell, and I've worked for very small firms where the young attorneys did quite well for themselves.
posted by ishotjr at 11:04 AM on October 17, 2009
Also, not all law schools are going to put you $150k in debt. Not by a long shot. I'm getting out under $80k. A fair number of my 3L friends are in the market for government, other public interest, and small-mid firm jobs and are doing fine. Maybe I'm just not scared because biglaw sounds like my own personal hell, and I've worked for very small firms where the young attorneys did quite well for themselves.
posted by ishotjr at 11:04 AM on October 17, 2009
No, I'm not. Look at NALP's figures for the distribution of starting salaries for the Class of 2008: "It is important for anyone considering a legal education to understand that half of all starting lawyer salaries are less than $72,000 and in fact 42% of them are between only $40,000 and $65,000."
And that's for the Class of 2008. Today, you'd take that big spike at the far right of the Class of 2008's graph, and reduce it by two-thirds.
A salary between $40k and $65k is fine if you have minimal debt (and lshotjr, congrats on being in that fortunate position). But if you're paying full price for law school, you will need to make a significant amount of money after graduation to service your debt. And if you're coming from anywhere other than a top law school, that's going to be far from guaranteed.
But don't just listen to my "Ivy" viewpoint. Listen to the Dean of (distinctly non-Ivy) New York Law School.
posted by ewiar at 1:14 PM on October 17, 2009
And that's for the Class of 2008. Today, you'd take that big spike at the far right of the Class of 2008's graph, and reduce it by two-thirds.
A salary between $40k and $65k is fine if you have minimal debt (and lshotjr, congrats on being in that fortunate position). But if you're paying full price for law school, you will need to make a significant amount of money after graduation to service your debt. And if you're coming from anywhere other than a top law school, that's going to be far from guaranteed.
But don't just listen to my "Ivy" viewpoint. Listen to the Dean of (distinctly non-Ivy) New York Law School.
posted by ewiar at 1:14 PM on October 17, 2009
There's been a lot of debate about these issues. I agree with Ishotjr here.
The job market for Biglaw is absolutely terrible. A lot of people in the past few years went to T14 schools and ignored the costs, thinking "I'll surely get a biglaw job out of school, and use my 160k to pay off the crushing debt". They were wrong. Biglaw jobs have largely dried up, and it's likely not a cyclical downturn; the very business model has been called into question.
However, that doesn't mean you have to sound the alarm bells, especially since you haven't started school. This advice is useless:
Do. Not. Go. to a school that's not T14, unless you're getting a full ride.
You don't need a full ride. Granted, it may be difficult to go to a school if you have to bear the FULL burden of the cost, but you certainly can take a look at some schools that provide provide a partial ride. It will make it that much easier when the loans come due.
It's true that many of the top-paying jobs have dried up. But that doesn't mean you can't make a decent salary as a lawyer. Remember that forty two percent are paying betweekn 40k and 65k a year. And that's starting salary. Despite the downturn, lawyers still make good money, as they always have. Now, it's just harder to say they make stellar money.
And guess what? If you didn't take on 200k+ in loans, but got a partial scholarship, then you're going to find yourself in a position where you can live a decent life AND repay your loans over a thirty year period. Here's a student loan calculator. Play around with it, keeping in mind what kind of income/debt ratio you can live with.
Don't worry about your LSATS: If you are passionate about the law, go to law school. There is, and always will be, decent paying work for you, and the work will be fun because you're doing something that interests you. HYS looks nice on a wall, but it's not going to matter in the long run. There are plenty of great schools that are not HYS, but offer a great education and job prospects. If you get into HYS, great!!!! If you don't, there are plenty of options.
Just make sure you go into law because you like law. Keep that in mind (and keep in mind the debt you take on), and you'll be alright. If you're passionate about making money, go to business school. It's shorter, you incur less debt, and make more money out of school. You also have the benefit of making all the Biglaw lawyers jump on command.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 5:59 PM on October 17, 2009
The job market for Biglaw is absolutely terrible. A lot of people in the past few years went to T14 schools and ignored the costs, thinking "I'll surely get a biglaw job out of school, and use my 160k to pay off the crushing debt". They were wrong. Biglaw jobs have largely dried up, and it's likely not a cyclical downturn; the very business model has been called into question.
However, that doesn't mean you have to sound the alarm bells, especially since you haven't started school. This advice is useless:
Do. Not. Go. to a school that's not T14, unless you're getting a full ride.
You don't need a full ride. Granted, it may be difficult to go to a school if you have to bear the FULL burden of the cost, but you certainly can take a look at some schools that provide provide a partial ride. It will make it that much easier when the loans come due.
It's true that many of the top-paying jobs have dried up. But that doesn't mean you can't make a decent salary as a lawyer. Remember that forty two percent are paying betweekn 40k and 65k a year. And that's starting salary. Despite the downturn, lawyers still make good money, as they always have. Now, it's just harder to say they make stellar money.
And guess what? If you didn't take on 200k+ in loans, but got a partial scholarship, then you're going to find yourself in a position where you can live a decent life AND repay your loans over a thirty year period. Here's a student loan calculator. Play around with it, keeping in mind what kind of income/debt ratio you can live with.
Don't worry about your LSATS: If you are passionate about the law, go to law school. There is, and always will be, decent paying work for you, and the work will be fun because you're doing something that interests you. HYS looks nice on a wall, but it's not going to matter in the long run. There are plenty of great schools that are not HYS, but offer a great education and job prospects. If you get into HYS, great!!!! If you don't, there are plenty of options.
Just make sure you go into law because you like law. Keep that in mind (and keep in mind the debt you take on), and you'll be alright. If you're passionate about making money, go to business school. It's shorter, you incur less debt, and make more money out of school. You also have the benefit of making all the Biglaw lawyers jump on command.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 5:59 PM on October 17, 2009
Taking a slightly different twist on what ewiar said, my wife and I both went to law school - me at a well-regarded public school in my home state, her at a top private law school. (Without checking, I'm not sure if it's top-15 or top-20).
Her debt load was enormous. She went to work for Biglaw for years, in part because she had no other choice. My tuition, by contrast, was about a tenth of hers. (I met her after I finished law school, so the choices were completely independent.)
My wife and her classmates? Almost all Biglaw prisoners due to debt. My classmates? The top grads had big-firm options across the state (not NY-DC Biglaw, but plenty of suitable, well-paying options.) My classmate, now law partner, went to be a prosecutor, for a pittance, and tried 30 jury cases in a year. Others started their own firms, and ended up doing very well for themselves. Some near the bottom of the pile had trouble finding jobs. But if your grades are anything like you say, you're likely to do very well outside the top-15, and would likely do no more than average if you got in to HYS. (And for what it's worth, I wouldn't hire a Harvard or Yale grad in my firm. Not at all worth the price they think they should bring.)
With your scores, you'll get into a law school. What your life looks like after that depends on what choices you make now.
Good luck!
posted by mikewas at 5:45 AM on October 18, 2009
Her debt load was enormous. She went to work for Biglaw for years, in part because she had no other choice. My tuition, by contrast, was about a tenth of hers. (I met her after I finished law school, so the choices were completely independent.)
My wife and her classmates? Almost all Biglaw prisoners due to debt. My classmates? The top grads had big-firm options across the state (not NY-DC Biglaw, but plenty of suitable, well-paying options.) My classmate, now law partner, went to be a prosecutor, for a pittance, and tried 30 jury cases in a year. Others started their own firms, and ended up doing very well for themselves. Some near the bottom of the pile had trouble finding jobs. But if your grades are anything like you say, you're likely to do very well outside the top-15, and would likely do no more than average if you got in to HYS. (And for what it's worth, I wouldn't hire a Harvard or Yale grad in my firm. Not at all worth the price they think they should bring.)
With your scores, you'll get into a law school. What your life looks like after that depends on what choices you make now.
Good luck!
posted by mikewas at 5:45 AM on October 18, 2009
Belated followup for future pre-law hopefuls reading this thread:
The University of Colorado is a T1, the 45th ranked school in the nation, and the highest ranked school in the state.
65% of its graduates are unemployed.
Be careful.
posted by ewiar at 12:39 PM on October 22, 2009
The University of Colorado is a T1, the 45th ranked school in the nation, and the highest ranked school in the state.
65% of its graduates are unemployed.
Be careful.
posted by ewiar at 12:39 PM on October 22, 2009
Thanks everybody, this advice really helped out. I've decided to apply with my 166, and maybe retake in June if I feel the need to get off some waitlists, or in order to get more money. Thanks again!
posted by Sakura3210 at 11:44 PM on November 4, 2009
posted by Sakura3210 at 11:44 PM on November 4, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Aanidaani at 8:54 PM on October 16, 2009