Questions about Hong Kong Chinese people renaming themselves with more "American" sounding first names
September 29, 2009 11:01 PM Subscribe
Questions about Hong Kong Chinese people renaming themselves with more "American" sounding first names.
One of my classes is doing this funky cross-cultural international virtual team project with a bunch of students at City University in Hong Kong.
My project mates are Mei Ling, Ka Yan, and Wai In, but they've introduced themselves as Amy, Amy, and Cherry, respectively.
I was wondering if y'all could help me with a little cultural insight:
1. Why do Hong Kong Chinese people rename themselves with more "American" first names? (Every person I've ever known from Hong Kong does this.)
2. I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
3. If it wouldn't be offensive, what's a popular Chinese first name for girls in Hong Kong?
Thanks!
One of my classes is doing this funky cross-cultural international virtual team project with a bunch of students at City University in Hong Kong.
My project mates are Mei Ling, Ka Yan, and Wai In, but they've introduced themselves as Amy, Amy, and Cherry, respectively.
I was wondering if y'all could help me with a little cultural insight:
1. Why do Hong Kong Chinese people rename themselves with more "American" first names? (Every person I've ever known from Hong Kong does this.)
2. I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
3. If it wouldn't be offensive, what's a popular Chinese first name for girls in Hong Kong?
Thanks!
I don't think it's anything specific to Hong Kong and no one reason will be the only reason for something like this, but some Chinese people simply prefer giving English names to having the roundeyes horribly butcher their names again and again for ever and ever amen.
I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
I can't speak to whether they'd find it offensive, but messing with your project-mates on the basis of their nationality is, at the very best, treading on thin ice as far as budding professionalism goes.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:21 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
I can't speak to whether they'd find it offensive, but messing with your project-mates on the basis of their nationality is, at the very best, treading on thin ice as far as budding professionalism goes.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:21 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: @ROU_Xenophone: Messing with them in a fun/friendly way. Everyone in the group is either Hong Kong Chinese or American, and the only other American seems to have dropped out, leaving just me and the Chinese students. So the context would be "everyone else gets a new cross-cultural name, I want one too!"
posted by Jacqueline at 11:30 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by Jacqueline at 11:30 PM on September 29, 2009
I have friends from Hong Kong and Singapore who do not "rename" themselves with "American" names. Rather, they have always had both English and Chinese given names. They write their names in full in Roman characters as English-given-name FAMILY-NAME Chinese-given-name. In business settings, at least one of them prefers to use the English given name in business situations even when dealing with other native Chinese speakers.
Unless you grew up somewhere that has Chinese as one of its official languages, and was under Chinese control for more than century, I don't think giving yourself a Chinese name would be very cool.
posted by grouse at 11:34 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
Unless you grew up somewhere that has Chinese as one of its official languages, and was under Chinese control for more than century, I don't think giving yourself a Chinese name would be very cool.
posted by grouse at 11:34 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Instead of "messing with them" it might be a fun project to ask them about their choice of names, and why they do it, and then they can have some fun trying to come up with an appropriate Chinese name for you.
posted by ORthey at 11:45 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by ORthey at 11:45 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The thing is, they're likely not giving themselves the names just for this project. It's their Westernized name. So if you say, "everyone else gets a new cross-cultural name, I want one too!" - their response might be "Huh? I didn't just give her a fake name, it's my Westernized name!"
Obviously it's hard to read what kind of rapport you have with them already. To me, this is the kind of thing that *might* be done after a few drinks in person, if ever, and in the context of "hey, if I lived in China, what do you think my Chinese name might be?" Trying to play this up with folks you don't know all, virtually, in a professional context -- well that just seems like a recipe for disaster. I know exactly the scenario that you're imagining -- I can play it out in my head. And I can see it succeeding given certain constraints (age of your teammates, sense of playfulness, sense of propriety, etc.) and really really failing in others.
posted by barnone at 11:46 PM on September 29, 2009
Obviously it's hard to read what kind of rapport you have with them already. To me, this is the kind of thing that *might* be done after a few drinks in person, if ever, and in the context of "hey, if I lived in China, what do you think my Chinese name might be?" Trying to play this up with folks you don't know all, virtually, in a professional context -- well that just seems like a recipe for disaster. I know exactly the scenario that you're imagining -- I can play it out in my head. And I can see it succeeding given certain constraints (age of your teammates, sense of playfulness, sense of propriety, etc.) and really really failing in others.
posted by barnone at 11:46 PM on September 29, 2009
I believe it comes from years of British colonialism.
posted by cazoo at 11:47 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by cazoo at 11:47 PM on September 29, 2009
hong kong was governed by britain for a long time. all the HKers i know have both english and chinese given names. so unless one of your given names is chinese, i would think it was weird at best, and offensive at worst.
posted by violetk at 11:52 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by violetk at 11:52 PM on September 29, 2009
I think if you gave yourself a Chinese name, and aren't used to speaking a tonal language and the consistency in tone that that requires, you may come off looking fairly silly, if not rude.
posted by pompomtom at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by pompomtom at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2009
2. I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
Erg. To be avoided.
posted by teamparka at 12:00 AM on September 30, 2009
Erg. To be avoided.
posted by teamparka at 12:00 AM on September 30, 2009
Response by poster: The reason it appeared to me as if these names were names they'd chosen for themselves and not their "real" names is that they are not the same as the names they are registered under in WebCampus. Their WebCampus names are Chinese-only and presumably reflect their legal names from their school registration records.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:01 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by Jacqueline at 12:01 AM on September 30, 2009
Best answer: I'm now in mainland China, and many (though not all) of the Chinese I meet here have English names. My sense is that this is an effort to make their names more accessible and memorable to Westerners. Their names come from a variety of sources. I recently met a "Scarlett" who got her name from an English teacher who was a big fan of Gone with the Wind. Go figure.
I can't speak to your particular situation, but many of the Chinese I meet here strongly suggest that I choose a Chinese name, and several have offered suggestions. For one thing, it would be a heck of a lot easier when making reservations on the phone to give someone a Chinese name than trying to spell my own (which isn't that difficult, but still).
That said, you should definitely ask a native speaker to help you choose your name (and the specific characters for your name) because you'll want to make sure that the phonetic sound of your name doesn't translate as "gorilla ass" or something like that.
posted by hawkeye at 12:04 AM on September 30, 2009
I can't speak to your particular situation, but many of the Chinese I meet here strongly suggest that I choose a Chinese name, and several have offered suggestions. For one thing, it would be a heck of a lot easier when making reservations on the phone to give someone a Chinese name than trying to spell my own (which isn't that difficult, but still).
That said, you should definitely ask a native speaker to help you choose your name (and the specific characters for your name) because you'll want to make sure that the phonetic sound of your name doesn't translate as "gorilla ass" or something like that.
posted by hawkeye at 12:04 AM on September 30, 2009
i'm curious as to why you came here to ask this question when all the answers you've marked as right are the ones that approve, to varying degrees, of your plan to do it.
posted by violetk at 12:11 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by violetk at 12:11 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
My Taiwanese colleagues told me that they picked their English names as part of their first English classes. The instructor gave them a list of names to choose from, and they picked the names they fancied for whatever reason -- I guess what sounds euphonious or cool. (The list seems to be a bit out-of-date, which may have accounted for the choice of names that sold old fashioned to contemporary Americans.)
Note that this is almost exactly what Catholics do when studying for Confirmation -- they pick their Confirmation name out of a book, choosing a name that sounds good or sounds cool, etc.
I think my colleagues from the PRC did something similar, but I get the impression that for some of them there was more emphasis on picking an English name that sounds something like their Chinese name -- the Taiwanese I knew made no effort to do that.
Note that my colleagues have all been Mandarin speakers, and what they relate may not be what Cantonese-speaking HKers may do.
posted by orthogonality at 12:14 AM on September 30, 2009
Note that this is almost exactly what Catholics do when studying for Confirmation -- they pick their Confirmation name out of a book, choosing a name that sounds good or sounds cool, etc.
I think my colleagues from the PRC did something similar, but I get the impression that for some of them there was more emphasis on picking an English name that sounds something like their Chinese name -- the Taiwanese I knew made no effort to do that.
Note that my colleagues have all been Mandarin speakers, and what they relate may not be what Cantonese-speaking HKers may do.
posted by orthogonality at 12:14 AM on September 30, 2009
Response by poster: @violetk: My original plan was to pick a Chinese name on my own and surprise them with it, but since some people think that could be taken the wrong way, I like the suggestions to ask my project mates about how they got their English names and asking them to pick a Chinese name for me.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:16 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by Jacqueline at 12:16 AM on September 30, 2009
If I'm not mistaken, the western names for ethnic Chinese is limited to those who have converted to Christianity; they have both Chinese names and Christian names.
When I worked in Singapore, most of my Chinese officemates had Christian names, and those who weren't Christian just went with their Chinese names.
My Singaporean friend Mr. Brown writes his full name as Theodore Nathanael Lee Kin Mun, so as to preserve both the proper Christian nomenclature (Theodore Nathanael Lee) and the Chinese nomenclature (Lee Kin Mun). In Facebook, where the name fields are less flexible, he goes by KinMun Theodore Nathanael Lee. (No wonder he insists his friends just call him "Brown"!)
So you see, your Chinese friends didn't just make their western names up from thin air ("from now on, I'd like to be called Kimberley!"). These are Christian names given to them on baptism, and they take them very seriously. So, YES, if you suggest there's an equivalence between THEM picking a Western name and YOU picking a Chinese name, that is potentially offensive.
But if you absolutely must, would it be asking too much for you to consider Wah Lan-Eh? Emphasis on the "Lan", it means "pretty pretty flower of the East".
posted by micketymoc at 12:21 AM on September 30, 2009
When I worked in Singapore, most of my Chinese officemates had Christian names, and those who weren't Christian just went with their Chinese names.
My Singaporean friend Mr. Brown writes his full name as Theodore Nathanael Lee Kin Mun, so as to preserve both the proper Christian nomenclature (Theodore Nathanael Lee) and the Chinese nomenclature (Lee Kin Mun). In Facebook, where the name fields are less flexible, he goes by KinMun Theodore Nathanael Lee. (No wonder he insists his friends just call him "Brown"!)
So you see, your Chinese friends didn't just make their western names up from thin air ("from now on, I'd like to be called Kimberley!"). These are Christian names given to them on baptism, and they take them very seriously. So, YES, if you suggest there's an equivalence between THEM picking a Western name and YOU picking a Chinese name, that is potentially offensive.
But if you absolutely must, would it be asking too much for you to consider Wah Lan-Eh? Emphasis on the "Lan", it means "pretty pretty flower of the East".
posted by micketymoc at 12:21 AM on September 30, 2009
The thing is, even those names might have been given at birth, at baptism, or as young children. And they might now be embarrassed about their provenance (although, they are not as egregious examples as Kitty, Kellogg or Nike). Asking them about the provenance - with the implicit understanding that it's not their "real" or legal name - immediately breaks the social contract that they have offered: This is my name / This is what I want you to call me. Amy. Amy. Cherry.
Breaking that social contract requires many other strong bonds to already be in place -- so that those bonds can sustain the social relationship even without the naming bond. It's not nearly as serious as asking a transgendered person about their name provenance, but it's not entirely different either. And again, I'm sure some folks wouldn't mind, or think of it as any big deal whatsoever.
I have a bit of an unusual first name in the US. Probably several times a week, people say, "Oh, x like Famous Person LastName?" or "x like Cartoon Character?" Each person thinks they're being either hilarious or inventive or trying to be personal. But in literally every case, it makes me feel less attached or attracted to that new person. It doesn't strengthen the social bond.
I do understand the impulse to be friendly and curious. And in some situations, I could see that conversation happening the way I played it out. But honestly, I wouldn't do it in your exact situation, given that the semester probably started within the month, and this is a professional and academic situation, and all interactions are happening virtually.
posted by barnone at 12:39 AM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
Breaking that social contract requires many other strong bonds to already be in place -- so that those bonds can sustain the social relationship even without the naming bond. It's not nearly as serious as asking a transgendered person about their name provenance, but it's not entirely different either. And again, I'm sure some folks wouldn't mind, or think of it as any big deal whatsoever.
I have a bit of an unusual first name in the US. Probably several times a week, people say, "Oh, x like Famous Person LastName?" or "x like Cartoon Character?" Each person thinks they're being either hilarious or inventive or trying to be personal. But in literally every case, it makes me feel less attached or attracted to that new person. It doesn't strengthen the social bond.
I do understand the impulse to be friendly and curious. And in some situations, I could see that conversation happening the way I played it out. But honestly, I wouldn't do it in your exact situation, given that the semester probably started within the month, and this is a professional and academic situation, and all interactions are happening virtually.
posted by barnone at 12:39 AM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
Best answer: This past spring I read this article on Slate about an American-born Chinese man named Huan Hsu who moved to China and was asked to pick an English name. It may provide some useful background on the subject.
posted by mostlymartha at 1:34 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by mostlymartha at 1:34 AM on September 30, 2009
Keep in mind that most people who are telling you to avoid making a Chinese name probably haven't interacted with anyone from Hong Kong more than in passing, or their experience is with those who are already Americanized. In my experience, if you've got some ability in their language, many Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese like Westerners adopting a name from their language. (I don't do this, even when people ask me to, but I get asked to do it fairly often).
posted by smorange at 1:41 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by smorange at 1:41 AM on September 30, 2009
If I'm not mistaken, the western names for ethnic Chinese is limited to those who have converted to Christianity; they have both Chinese names and Christian names.
Or those who have studied English with Westerners. Or those who work in international companies, where an English name is encouraged.
posted by smorange at 1:44 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Or those who have studied English with Westerners. Or those who work in international companies, where an English name is encouraged.
posted by smorange at 1:44 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm an overseas Chinese (though not from Hong Kong) and it's quite common for us to take on English names, especially when dealing with people in, well, English. It's much easier to say "Hi, I'm Amy," than "Hi, I'm [Chinese name], and you pronounce it like [attempt to teach pronunciation]."
Sometimes it's a Christian name, yes, but it's definitely not limited to the Christian Chinese population. It's just pragmatism. In fact, I once met a Chinese guy who introduced himself by completely different names if you asked him in English or Italian (which struck me as overdoing it a little, but anyway).
As for 2) and 3), if you're interested in getting one, I'd definitely ask them to help you come up with a Chinese name. They probably won't find the idea offensive - or at least, I wouldn't, and nor would anyone I know.
posted by Xany at 1:57 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sometimes it's a Christian name, yes, but it's definitely not limited to the Christian Chinese population. It's just pragmatism. In fact, I once met a Chinese guy who introduced himself by completely different names if you asked him in English or Italian (which struck me as overdoing it a little, but anyway).
As for 2) and 3), if you're interested in getting one, I'd definitely ask them to help you come up with a Chinese name. They probably won't find the idea offensive - or at least, I wouldn't, and nor would anyone I know.
posted by Xany at 1:57 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
In my experience, Hawkeye above has it right. Chinese people, in general just like using lots of different names for themselves, both Chinese and English. For instance look at all of Sun Yatsen's names.
1 Official name: Sūn Démíng (孫德明)
2 Milk name: Sun Dìxiàng (孫帝象)
3 School name: Sūn Wén (孫文)
4 Caricatural name: unknown
5 Courtesy names: Sūn Zàizhī (孫載之)
6 Pseudonym(s): 1. Sūn Rìxīn (孫日新), 2. Sūn Yìxiān (孫逸仙, 1886), jap. Nakayama Shō (中山樵, 1897)
-Death, Honorary titles :
7 Posthume name: Gúofù (國父)
As for picking a Chinese name, it is very unlikely they will be offended. But to avoid the slight chance of offence or to avoid coming off ridiculous, it would be best to ask a native speaker to help you pick one.
In my experience it is best to pick something that sounds like a nick name rather than a full Chinese name. Something starting with 啊(a) or 小(xiao) usually strikes the right informal tone that is the norm between Chinese coworkers.
posted by afu at 2:08 AM on September 30, 2009
1 Official name: Sūn Démíng (孫德明)
2 Milk name: Sun Dìxiàng (孫帝象)
3 School name: Sūn Wén (孫文)
4 Caricatural name: unknown
5 Courtesy names: Sūn Zàizhī (孫載之)
6 Pseudonym(s): 1. Sūn Rìxīn (孫日新), 2. Sūn Yìxiān (孫逸仙, 1886), jap. Nakayama Shō (中山樵, 1897)
-Death, Honorary titles :
7 Posthume name: Gúofù (國父)
As for picking a Chinese name, it is very unlikely they will be offended. But to avoid the slight chance of offence or to avoid coming off ridiculous, it would be best to ask a native speaker to help you pick one.
In my experience it is best to pick something that sounds like a nick name rather than a full Chinese name. Something starting with 啊(a) or 小(xiao) usually strikes the right informal tone that is the norm between Chinese coworkers.
posted by afu at 2:08 AM on September 30, 2009
FWIW, a lot of english names come from ones that sound similar to their own chinese names.
If you want a Chinese name, you could use 杰奎琳 (Jié kuí lín) which is "jacqueline". It might be amusing to learn to write it and use it in e-mails, notes to your coworkers.
posted by wongcorgi at 2:21 AM on September 30, 2009
If you want a Chinese name, you could use 杰奎琳 (Jié kuí lín) which is "jacqueline". It might be amusing to learn to write it and use it in e-mails, notes to your coworkers.
posted by wongcorgi at 2:21 AM on September 30, 2009
Why are they always "Amy"? Seriously.
I woudn't be surprised if this is because: 1) "Amy" is used in standardized ESL textbooks in Hong Kong; 2) it's the name of a character in a popular movie in Hong Kong, or; 3) it's a common translation of a Chinese name (that's how I'd come up with a Chinese name, if I wanted one, because my name matches up with one fairly well).
posted by smorange at 2:27 AM on September 30, 2009
I woudn't be surprised if this is because: 1) "Amy" is used in standardized ESL textbooks in Hong Kong; 2) it's the name of a character in a popular movie in Hong Kong, or; 3) it's a common translation of a Chinese name (that's how I'd come up with a Chinese name, if I wanted one, because my name matches up with one fairly well).
posted by smorange at 2:27 AM on September 30, 2009
People can have multiple names for any number of reasons, but I would guess that it generally just makes life easier to use an English-sounding name when dealing with English speakers.
Chinese speaker - "My name is 'says name in Chinese with tones'"
English speaker - "Oh, so your name is 'says name without tones'"
Chinese speaker - "No, it's 'says name with tones'"
English speaker - "Ok so it's 'says name without tones'?"
Chinese speaker - "Just call me Amy."
posted by CarolynG at 2:50 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Chinese speaker - "My name is 'says name in Chinese with tones'"
English speaker - "Oh, so your name is 'says name without tones'"
Chinese speaker - "No, it's 'says name with tones'"
English speaker - "Ok so it's 'says name without tones'?"
Chinese speaker - "Just call me Amy."
posted by CarolynG at 2:50 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
The tone of your post, and that of some of the replies, suggest that you think the practice is a little twee and weird. I would suggest not being so judgemental about it.
It is a perfectly acceptable practice that is not just limited to people from Hong Kong. How many refugees from Eastern Europe emigrated to the US after the war and Anglicised/Americanised their names? Would you be so quick to 'mess with their heads' about it?
posted by TheOtherGuy at 3:00 AM on September 30, 2009
It is a perfectly acceptable practice that is not just limited to people from Hong Kong. How many refugees from Eastern Europe emigrated to the US after the war and Anglicised/Americanised their names? Would you be so quick to 'mess with their heads' about it?
posted by TheOtherGuy at 3:00 AM on September 30, 2009
Best answer: I am Chinese-American from Hong Kong. Me, my family, and friends in Hong Kong all have English names, and we use our Chinese names and English names interchangeably. In fact, my uncle calls my cousins by either their Chinese name or their English name. They are all native Hong Kongers who have never lived outside of HK. One of my Hong Kong friends is even named Jacqueline. It is just part of life there, and like others in this thread, I think that the students you are working with have a history with their name that is entirely separate from the project that they are doing with you.
I'd also like to point out that the names they chose aren't particularly American but belong to the greater English-speaking communities around the world. Heck, my name is ambiguous enough that people who only know me through talking on the phone think I am Irish-American.
There isn't anything wrong with getting a Chinese name. As I'm living in the mainland now, many non-Chinese friends have Chinese names that were given to them, or that they selected for themselves. However, with your stated motive of "messing with their heads", that sounds a bit rude and undercuts the intention of a respectful cross-cultural exchange. It does come across as "ha ha, look at the funny foreigners." Ask your project mates to help pick out a cool name for you, it'll most likely be a transliteration of your own name.
posted by so much modern time at 3:40 AM on September 30, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'd also like to point out that the names they chose aren't particularly American but belong to the greater English-speaking communities around the world. Heck, my name is ambiguous enough that people who only know me through talking on the phone think I am Irish-American.
There isn't anything wrong with getting a Chinese name. As I'm living in the mainland now, many non-Chinese friends have Chinese names that were given to them, or that they selected for themselves. However, with your stated motive of "messing with their heads", that sounds a bit rude and undercuts the intention of a respectful cross-cultural exchange. It does come across as "ha ha, look at the funny foreigners." Ask your project mates to help pick out a cool name for you, it'll most likely be a transliteration of your own name.
posted by so much modern time at 3:40 AM on September 30, 2009 [5 favorites]
Amy and Cherry are not "American-sounding" names they are English names.
posted by dydecker at 3:51 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by dydecker at 3:51 AM on September 30, 2009
Response by poster: @TheOtherGuy: I suppose I should have been less colloquial in my phrasing and instead of writing "mess with them" written "shake up their preconceived notions about interacting with an American by inverting the usual dynamic of who has to use a different name to accommodate the other person."
I don't think it's "twee" but it does seem unbalanced to me that in a team of 3 Chinese and 1 American that it's only the Chinese who are changing their names. I thought it might be a fun surprise to tell them that they could just call me by some easy-to-remember, common Hong Kong female name instead of Jacqueline (which even native English speakers frequently struggle to spell and pronounce correctly). Then we'd all have both an English name and a Chinese name.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:10 AM on September 30, 2009
I don't think it's "twee" but it does seem unbalanced to me that in a team of 3 Chinese and 1 American that it's only the Chinese who are changing their names. I thought it might be a fun surprise to tell them that they could just call me by some easy-to-remember, common Hong Kong female name instead of Jacqueline (which even native English speakers frequently struggle to spell and pronounce correctly). Then we'd all have both an English name and a Chinese name.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:10 AM on September 30, 2009
In my experience Mainland Chinese are the ones who are more likely to have recently picked an English name (either for an English class or for the purpose of interacting with foreigners) whereas HK and Singapore Chinese are more likely to have had an English name given to them by their parents, or since a young age. As others in the thread have mentioned, this is due to the English influence that the latter have had over the past century.
You've no doubt met your share of American Chinese; the thing is, many of them have Chinese names as well, and just because they've never been back to HK/Singapore/Taiwan/China or don't speak Chinese very well doesn't make their Chinese name any less of a "real" name.
I don't think your HK friends would be particularly offended if you took on a Chinese name. My guess is that they would think it's cute. My girlfriend (who is non-Chinese) introduced herself with a Chinese name when we were traveling in the mainland and no one batted an eye - though for what it's worth, she's nearly fluent in Mandarin and the name was given to her by a Chinese host family.
posted by pravit at 4:38 AM on September 30, 2009
You've no doubt met your share of American Chinese; the thing is, many of them have Chinese names as well, and just because they've never been back to HK/Singapore/Taiwan/China or don't speak Chinese very well doesn't make their Chinese name any less of a "real" name.
I don't think your HK friends would be particularly offended if you took on a Chinese name. My guess is that they would think it's cute. My girlfriend (who is non-Chinese) introduced herself with a Chinese name when we were traveling in the mainland and no one batted an eye - though for what it's worth, she's nearly fluent in Mandarin and the name was given to her by a Chinese host family.
posted by pravit at 4:38 AM on September 30, 2009
There was a girl from HK in my high school who was named 'Agnes'. It was very incongruous.
posted by delmoi at 4:49 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by delmoi at 4:49 AM on September 30, 2009
(I mean that she had an 'old lady' name, that was the incongruous part)
posted by delmoi at 4:59 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by delmoi at 4:59 AM on September 30, 2009
When I taught at an elementary school in Taiwan, the teachers of the first-year students (meaning students around four years old) had to help the them come up with their English names. The school had a policy that everyone had to have a different name, so of course John and Mary were already taken, and sometimes students would end up with Homer or Gwendolyn or Ludwig or Satchel or Franny. For some reason I also recall that the girls all really wanted names that began with the sound usually associated with J -- like Julia or Jessica. I also recall hearing about a sister and brother whose father chose their names: "Elegant" and "Intelligent". This was particularly awesome because their last name was "Lee" so their full name was an adverb.
When I was given my Chinese name, I recall that the procedure was very elaborate because many things had to be checked, including that the number of strokes to write the name was a fortuitous number (one early contender that I liked had to be thrown out on that basis). I definitely agree that you should ask your colleagues and follow their lead on this.
posted by tractorfeed at 5:06 AM on September 30, 2009
When I was given my Chinese name, I recall that the procedure was very elaborate because many things had to be checked, including that the number of strokes to write the name was a fortuitous number (one early contender that I liked had to be thrown out on that basis). I definitely agree that you should ask your colleagues and follow their lead on this.
posted by tractorfeed at 5:06 AM on September 30, 2009
Best answer: Now that I think about it, in addition to seventy-five Chinese Amys, I have also known an Agnes and two Adas. So I think I've just solved the riddle.
They're reading an alphabetical list of female Saints' names, and picking the first one they like.
posted by rokusan at 5:10 AM on September 30, 2009
They're reading an alphabetical list of female Saints' names, and picking the first one they like.
posted by rokusan at 5:10 AM on September 30, 2009
(No, this doesn't explain 'Cherry'.)
posted by rokusan at 5:11 AM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by rokusan at 5:11 AM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
1. Because it's more or less a Westernized world and they are adapting to the lingua franca. It makes it easier to stand out in the international job market.
Because it is a post-colonial city and this has been a practice for a long time.
Because if you had a chance to move somewhere else and make up your own name wouldn't you take it too? This is why I know lawyers named Miami Wu and there are actresses named Alien Sun. You do it because you can.
2. It depends. Can your teammates take a joke? It seems pretty harmless so they might think it's cute and get a laugh out of it.
3. No idea.
I really, really want to note it's insulting to assume that when Chinese people pick Western names they're doing so out of some heavy racial/post-colonial baggage that they just don't have the wherewithal to stand up to instead of, y'know, making a perfectly well-informed free choice.
PS - In my experience it's not Amy, but always Jennifer.
posted by twins named Lugubrious and Salubrious at 5:17 AM on September 30, 2009
Because it is a post-colonial city and this has been a practice for a long time.
Because if you had a chance to move somewhere else and make up your own name wouldn't you take it too? This is why I know lawyers named Miami Wu and there are actresses named Alien Sun. You do it because you can.
2. It depends. Can your teammates take a joke? It seems pretty harmless so they might think it's cute and get a laugh out of it.
3. No idea.
I really, really want to note it's insulting to assume that when Chinese people pick Western names they're doing so out of some heavy racial/post-colonial baggage that they just don't have the wherewithal to stand up to instead of, y'know, making a perfectly well-informed free choice.
PS - In my experience it's not Amy, but always Jennifer.
posted by twins named Lugubrious and Salubrious at 5:17 AM on September 30, 2009
My (mainland) Chinese coworkers at a previous job were mostly given their English names by their first English teachers. It was really interesting to hear how some of them were chosen (though others seemed to have been pretty randomly assigned). Maybe you could ask your coworkers how they chose their names, and then ask them if they should give you a Chinese name to use as you start learning Cantonese.
I'm all about the spirit of generosity. Why not friendly participation rather than "messing with them"?
posted by Lyn Never at 5:40 AM on September 30, 2009
I'm all about the spirit of generosity. Why not friendly participation rather than "messing with them"?
posted by Lyn Never at 5:40 AM on September 30, 2009
If it helps, my three British-Chinese sisters have all got the first name Sue, which works in English *and* Chinese.
posted by almostwitty at 5:52 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by almostwitty at 5:52 AM on September 30, 2009
(No, this doesn't explain 'Cherry'.)
Cherry probably because cherry blossoms are beautiful; think of all the Japanese girls named Sakura.
posted by so much modern time at 6:18 AM on September 30, 2009
Cherry probably because cherry blossoms are beautiful; think of all the Japanese girls named Sakura.
posted by so much modern time at 6:18 AM on September 30, 2009
In my experience it's not Amy, but always Jennifer.
Odd. My Jennys are all Vietnamese.
posted by rokusan at 6:19 AM on September 30, 2009
Odd. My Jennys are all Vietnamese.
posted by rokusan at 6:19 AM on September 30, 2009
I suppose I should have been less colloquial in my phrasing and instead of writing "mess with them" written "shake up their preconceived notions about interacting with an American by inverting the usual dynamic of who has to use a different name to accommodate the other person."
The thing you need to consider is that it doesn't really matter if your HK co-workers are completely fine with you taking on a Cantonese or Mandarin name to use with them.
The thing that really matters is how your instructor or other people in positions of formal authority over you feel about it if they catch wind of it. And it would be awfully easy to interpret it as being disrespectful or unprofessional, no matter what you say about your motives, unless the class this is springing out of is one on Cantonese.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:27 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
The thing you need to consider is that it doesn't really matter if your HK co-workers are completely fine with you taking on a Cantonese or Mandarin name to use with them.
The thing that really matters is how your instructor or other people in positions of formal authority over you feel about it if they catch wind of it. And it would be awfully easy to interpret it as being disrespectful or unprofessional, no matter what you say about your motives, unless the class this is springing out of is one on Cantonese.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:27 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Another reason to do this is because it makes it clear which is the given name and which is the family name.
posted by smackfu at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by smackfu at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2009
People rename themselves with Americanized names because Americans have a talent for totally butchering names and mispronouncing them. They're helping you.
2. I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
I think so. I think it would be confusing. Humor doesn't really translate. Don't "mess with them" or "shake up their preconceived notions." It's not funny, period.
My uncle Devendra goes by Dave because people in Georgia find it a mouthful and he doesn't want to bother correcting them all the time. They don't even try and they're rude about it, it gets embarrassing for him, so he just says his name is Dave, which they're fine with.
posted by anniecat at 6:56 AM on September 30, 2009
2. I would like to mess with my project mates a little by giving myself a new Chinese name. Would that be considered offensive?
I think so. I think it would be confusing. Humor doesn't really translate. Don't "mess with them" or "shake up their preconceived notions." It's not funny, period.
My uncle Devendra goes by Dave because people in Georgia find it a mouthful and he doesn't want to bother correcting them all the time. They don't even try and they're rude about it, it gets embarrassing for him, so he just says his name is Dave, which they're fine with.
posted by anniecat at 6:56 AM on September 30, 2009
The best approach is to ask them about their names and to help you pick a name for yourself. I think that probably has a high degree of likely success.
FWIW, I come across a lot of Chinese co-workers with the names Elvis and Elton which I've always assumed were homages to the singers.
posted by mmascolino at 7:00 AM on September 30, 2009
FWIW, I come across a lot of Chinese co-workers with the names Elvis and Elton which I've always assumed were homages to the singers.
posted by mmascolino at 7:00 AM on September 30, 2009
It's like a less extreme version of the movie Splash:
Allen Bauer: What is your name?
Madison: It's hard to say in English.
Allen Bauer: Then just say it in your language.
Madison: All right. My name is... [she makes high-pitched squeels that shatter all the television screens]
Allen Bauer: [nervously to the clerks] So, how about those Knicks?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:01 AM on September 30, 2009
Allen Bauer: What is your name?
Madison: It's hard to say in English.
Allen Bauer: Then just say it in your language.
Madison: All right. My name is... [she makes high-pitched squeels that shatter all the television screens]
Allen Bauer: [nervously to the clerks] So, how about those Knicks?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:01 AM on September 30, 2009
No, this doesn't explain 'Cherry'
After the birth of Gwyneth Paltrow's first born child, you don't know how many "Apples" I met in China.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2009
After the birth of Gwyneth Paltrow's first born child, you don't know how many "Apples" I met in China.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2009
I think it would be a little strange to choose a new name if you are going to be speaking with them in English. Taking on a Westernized name is done to fit in better during conversations in, well, English.
I've taken a chinese class before and chose a Chinese name for use in our classroom (well, it was chosen for me by the professor). It didn't really mean anything in Chinese, but was just my english name translated phonetically, and not even in the right order to boot. Kind of weird, but some of my friends from that class still call me that.
My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and her english name has fairly arbitrary origins too... I guess her english teacher liked that song 'Michelle' from the Beatles and named her after it.
posted by gushn at 7:05 AM on September 30, 2009
I've taken a chinese class before and chose a Chinese name for use in our classroom (well, it was chosen for me by the professor). It didn't really mean anything in Chinese, but was just my english name translated phonetically, and not even in the right order to boot. Kind of weird, but some of my friends from that class still call me that.
My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and her english name has fairly arbitrary origins too... I guess her english teacher liked that song 'Michelle' from the Beatles and named her after it.
posted by gushn at 7:05 AM on September 30, 2009
I don't think it's "twee" but it does seem unbalanced to me that in a team of 3 Chinese and 1 American that it's only the Chinese who are changing their names.
How can you read all of the answers above and still think that they are "changing" their names? Hong Kong is a trilingual locality. Even the Chief Executive of Hong Kong goes by the name Donald Tsang.
posted by grouse at 7:12 AM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]
How can you read all of the answers above and still think that they are "changing" their names? Hong Kong is a trilingual locality. Even the Chief Executive of Hong Kong goes by the name Donald Tsang.
posted by grouse at 7:12 AM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]
Seconding ORthey, and having done a fair bit of work in Hong Kong and Japan, a fun pastime over a few drinks ONCE YOU'VE GOT TO KNOW your coworkers and have a rapport is to get them to phonetically translate your name into Chinese characters. I ended up as 'Eternal Warrior Of Light, Eternally Armed With Marijuana', which provoked much merriment.
I would be very cautious about unilaterally giving yourself a Chinese name, though. Cultural imperialism rarely goes down well.
posted by momentofmagnus at 7:21 AM on September 30, 2009
I would be very cautious about unilaterally giving yourself a Chinese name, though. Cultural imperialism rarely goes down well.
posted by momentofmagnus at 7:21 AM on September 30, 2009
Seconding or Nthing all who suggest that you ask your teammates for suggestions.
Both your initial post and your response in thread ("shake up their preconceived notions about interacting with an American by inverting the usual dynamic of who has to use a different name to accommodate the other person") suggest that you have some preconceived notions of your own.
As many have tried to point out to you, it is quite likely that Amy, Amy, and Cherry did not give you those names to accommodate you.
When I first visited Thailand, I was frustrated when Thais introduced themselves with "English" names, and thought they were "accommodating" me, but came to learn that these were, in fact, nicknames that were used for them every day by family and friends. (Not all Thais have English-name nicknames, but some do.)
I received my Thai nickname from someone who was shocked to learn that I had only my formal given name, and was given my Thai name by someone who thought our first names sounded alike, so we must have the same name. Don't cheat yourself out of a similar friendly interaction by giving yourself a Chinese name! Build a bit of friendship and rapport, and make the request to your teammates.
posted by jaruwaan at 9:11 AM on September 30, 2009
Both your initial post and your response in thread ("shake up their preconceived notions about interacting with an American by inverting the usual dynamic of who has to use a different name to accommodate the other person") suggest that you have some preconceived notions of your own.
As many have tried to point out to you, it is quite likely that Amy, Amy, and Cherry did not give you those names to accommodate you.
When I first visited Thailand, I was frustrated when Thais introduced themselves with "English" names, and thought they were "accommodating" me, but came to learn that these were, in fact, nicknames that were used for them every day by family and friends. (Not all Thais have English-name nicknames, but some do.)
I received my Thai nickname from someone who was shocked to learn that I had only my formal given name, and was given my Thai name by someone who thought our first names sounded alike, so we must have the same name. Don't cheat yourself out of a similar friendly interaction by giving yourself a Chinese name! Build a bit of friendship and rapport, and make the request to your teammates.
posted by jaruwaan at 9:11 AM on September 30, 2009
I have a Taiwan-born friend whose family moved to the US when he was about 5 years old. His cousins picked their english names from watching Sesame Street - Bert and Ernie. I always thought it was an incredible stroke of luck that they didn't pick Big Bird and Snufflupagus. My friends brother got an english name - Paul - but somehow my friend didn't. He was and remains Hsia (pronounced Shah), and nobody EVER spells it right.
posted by conifer at 9:28 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by conifer at 9:28 AM on September 30, 2009
Thirding asking them to phonetically translate your name into Chinese characters. I was in China for only 2 weeks, but got to know several people fairly well, and as a group they wanted to do this for me (meaning, they approached me with the idea). There was lots of back-and-forth and laughing. It was fun and neat, and I still treasure the piece of paper with my name written on it.
posted by Houstonian at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by Houstonian at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2009
Mom picked her English name firstly for pragmatic reasons (work, school), and secondly because she loved the word (Lilies are her favorite flower).
But your post did get me thinking about what it'd be like for mom to introduce herself to other Chinese vs non-Mandarin speakers if she didn't have an English name.
(talking with another Chinese)
Mom: "My name is Chin-Li, Chin as in 'light' and Li as in 'plum.'"
In this instance the listener now knows exactly how to write mom's name in Chinese.
(talking with non-Chinese speaker)
Mom: "My name is Chin-Li, Chin spelled with 'Ch' and not 'Qi', 'Li' spelled with an 'i' and not two 'e's.'
It really is a lot less of a pain in the ass for her to just say, "My name is Lily, like the flower."
But nowadays, I find most young Chinese students in China pick their names because it sounds cool to them. At one Chinese college campus dorm in 2004, I met a trio named "Bodarfsky", "Lenin", and "Zangief". Awesome. Everyone student I met on that campus had an English name they had picked out for themselves at some point in their lives, despite the fact that many had never left China. So it's sure not to "accomodate" anyone.
Re: finding a name for yourself: ask someone to give you a name, or pick a name of your own. But do it cause you think it's cool and you genuinely want a Chinese name, not to "shake up preconceived notions." Foreigners have been picking Chinese names for themselves for a long, long time, so you're not gonna be some kind of revolutionary rebel by doing so.
posted by chalbe at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2009
But your post did get me thinking about what it'd be like for mom to introduce herself to other Chinese vs non-Mandarin speakers if she didn't have an English name.
(talking with another Chinese)
Mom: "My name is Chin-Li, Chin as in 'light' and Li as in 'plum.'"
In this instance the listener now knows exactly how to write mom's name in Chinese.
(talking with non-Chinese speaker)
Mom: "My name is Chin-Li, Chin spelled with 'Ch' and not 'Qi', 'Li' spelled with an 'i' and not two 'e's.'
It really is a lot less of a pain in the ass for her to just say, "My name is Lily, like the flower."
But nowadays, I find most young Chinese students in China pick their names because it sounds cool to them. At one Chinese college campus dorm in 2004, I met a trio named "Bodarfsky", "Lenin", and "Zangief". Awesome. Everyone student I met on that campus had an English name they had picked out for themselves at some point in their lives, despite the fact that many had never left China. So it's sure not to "accomodate" anyone.
Re: finding a name for yourself: ask someone to give you a name, or pick a name of your own. But do it cause you think it's cool and you genuinely want a Chinese name, not to "shake up preconceived notions." Foreigners have been picking Chinese names for themselves for a long, long time, so you're not gonna be some kind of revolutionary rebel by doing so.
posted by chalbe at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2009
You'd be the only one in the group who thought it was entertaining. Do you really want to be "that" guy?
posted by hermitosis at 10:42 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by hermitosis at 10:42 AM on September 30, 2009
Some Chinese people explain how they chose their English names.
posted by Oriole Adams at 11:41 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by Oriole Adams at 11:41 AM on September 30, 2009
Enlightening discussion here, for this ESL teacher who's always wondered why so many of my Chinese students have these English 'nicknames' while the Koreans and Japanese never do this. What's annoying is how on official documents the Chinese often list only their real name, but in class they identify themselves with the nickname, and there's nothing official/legal which links the two. (Of course, that's also true with my nickname.)
And yes, many Amys. (And why so many x's in their real names converted to English letters? How am I as an English-speaker supposed to pronounce a name like Xie? Seems that "Ksie" is incorrect.)
posted by Rash at 12:01 PM on September 30, 2009
And yes, many Amys. (And why so many x's in their real names converted to English letters? How am I as an English-speaker supposed to pronounce a name like Xie? Seems that "Ksie" is incorrect.)
posted by Rash at 12:01 PM on September 30, 2009
(And why so many x's in their real names converted to English letters? How am I as an English-speaker supposed to pronounce a name like Xie? Seems that "Ksie" is incorrect.)
Pinyin.
posted by pravit at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2009
Pinyin.
posted by pravit at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2009
...while the Koreans and Japanese never do this.
They do.
posted by smorange at 7:03 PM on September 30, 2009
They do.
posted by smorange at 7:03 PM on September 30, 2009
In my experience, it's not as common for Japanese speakers to do this (since Japanese is more easily pronounced by Westerners than is Chinese), but it still happens. Usually men with somewhat convoluted first names shorten them (Yasuhiko -> Yasu, Takehiro -> Hiro), but sometimes you'll run into a "Tex", a "Bob", or something similar, mostly among men of a certain age. Younger Japanese don't tend to adopt English names as much as they did twenty or thirty years ago, perhaps because of the greater influence of Japanese culture and language in the West.
posted by armage at 8:20 PM on September 30, 2009
posted by armage at 8:20 PM on September 30, 2009
Choosing a name in Chinese makes sense if it's part of a process of learning how to communicate in Chinese and, in a way, becoming part of that world.
They're giving you their English names because those are a lot easier and more natural to use in an English language conversation. If you were going to be communicating with them in Chinese, having a Chinese version of your name would make sense for similar reasons.
posted by dacoit at 11:53 AM on October 3, 2009
They're giving you their English names because those are a lot easier and more natural to use in an English language conversation. If you were going to be communicating with them in Chinese, having a Chinese version of your name would make sense for similar reasons.
posted by dacoit at 11:53 AM on October 3, 2009
To the OP: You could ask them to transliterate "Jacqueline" into Chinese for you, and that would be alright.
"I really, really want to note it's insulting to assume that when Chinese people pick Western names they're doing so out of some heavy racial/post-colonial baggage that they just don't have the wherewithal to stand up to instead of, y'know, making a perfectly well-informed free choice."
I personally think it is a post-colonial legacy and a form of cultural imperialism that has persisted, especially so in ex-British colonies (Hong Kong, Singapore, etc), although this practice has now spread to other Asian countries like China and Japan, partially thanks to the influence of Christianity and Christian missionaries. I think it would be better if people were more aware of this and stopped this practice.
BTW if this comment so bothers anyone, I grew up in an Asian country where this giving-oneself-Anglized-names is commonplace. And yes, I am an overseas Chinese with a Anglized-name FAMILY NAME Chinese-name. I love my name because it's mine, and at the same time, I wish I didn't have my name.
posted by moiraine at 9:58 AM on November 14, 2009
"I really, really want to note it's insulting to assume that when Chinese people pick Western names they're doing so out of some heavy racial/post-colonial baggage that they just don't have the wherewithal to stand up to instead of, y'know, making a perfectly well-informed free choice."
I personally think it is a post-colonial legacy and a form of cultural imperialism that has persisted, especially so in ex-British colonies (Hong Kong, Singapore, etc), although this practice has now spread to other Asian countries like China and Japan, partially thanks to the influence of Christianity and Christian missionaries. I think it would be better if people were more aware of this and stopped this practice.
BTW if this comment so bothers anyone, I grew up in an Asian country where this giving-oneself-Anglized-names is commonplace. And yes, I am an overseas Chinese with a Anglized-name FAMILY NAME Chinese-name. I love my name because it's mine, and at the same time, I wish I didn't have my name.
posted by moiraine at 9:58 AM on November 14, 2009
You've asked a question that you don't want to hear the answer to. When I do that I stop, look, and listen.
All of us who are telling you not to do it shouldn't be ignored. There are other ways to have cultural experiences. Have a meal together, take them to see a tourist attraction.
posted by notned at 4:33 PM on November 18, 2009
All of us who are telling you not to do it shouldn't be ignored. There are other ways to have cultural experiences. Have a meal together, take them to see a tourist attraction.
posted by notned at 4:33 PM on November 18, 2009
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posted by rokusan at 11:18 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]