Vengeance for Grandpa!
June 5, 2009 7:38 PM Subscribe
What non-litigious ways are there to kick a business' ass?
So, in an attempt to keep this from turning this into a giant pile of nonsense, here's a very summarized summary of what happened:
My grandfather (who is very healthy, mentally and physically) (well, aside from his teeth) went to have his teeth removed at a private dental facility that is a large national chain. He was accompanied by my mother, who was a surgical nurse for 20 years but is currently undergoing aggressive chemotherapy and not at the top of her game. Within 15 minutes of the completion of his surgery, they tried to discharge him. He was not even conscious. My mother managed to argue with the facility for 40 minutes before they placed him into a wheelchair (his eyes were open but he did not seem to be aware of his surroundings, nor could he voluntarily move his body) and basically kicked them out. My mother ended up physically dragging him into his house without assistance, and believed for a short while that grandpa had a stroke (he couldn't move his left side for a while). He's okay now, but to say it was a rough day would be an understatement. They also never called to follow-up with him, which they promised to do and which I believe to be common practice for any surgery.
So, here's the thing: I think what they did was morally wrong, though legally gray. Grandpa probably has a case, but for a multitude of reasons is not going to sue.
I, however, am not so lax. I'm furious. I'm nauseated with rage. All I can think to do right now is a strongly-worded letter campaign, which seems lame but I suppose is my best course of action. I guess what I'm asking is:
1) Is a strongly-worded letter campaign the best option?
2) Do you have any tips for successful strongly-worded letter campaigns? My current plan is to send personalized letters to everyone in the company right up to the CEO, and to send another to the Attorney General.
3) I've read it helps to have a clear demand with letters, but I feel like the damage has been done -- what could my potential demands be?
Phew! Sorry about the long explanation, but it is what it is.
So, in an attempt to keep this from turning this into a giant pile of nonsense, here's a very summarized summary of what happened:
My grandfather (who is very healthy, mentally and physically) (well, aside from his teeth) went to have his teeth removed at a private dental facility that is a large national chain. He was accompanied by my mother, who was a surgical nurse for 20 years but is currently undergoing aggressive chemotherapy and not at the top of her game. Within 15 minutes of the completion of his surgery, they tried to discharge him. He was not even conscious. My mother managed to argue with the facility for 40 minutes before they placed him into a wheelchair (his eyes were open but he did not seem to be aware of his surroundings, nor could he voluntarily move his body) and basically kicked them out. My mother ended up physically dragging him into his house without assistance, and believed for a short while that grandpa had a stroke (he couldn't move his left side for a while). He's okay now, but to say it was a rough day would be an understatement. They also never called to follow-up with him, which they promised to do and which I believe to be common practice for any surgery.
So, here's the thing: I think what they did was morally wrong, though legally gray. Grandpa probably has a case, but for a multitude of reasons is not going to sue.
I, however, am not so lax. I'm furious. I'm nauseated with rage. All I can think to do right now is a strongly-worded letter campaign, which seems lame but I suppose is my best course of action. I guess what I'm asking is:
1) Is a strongly-worded letter campaign the best option?
2) Do you have any tips for successful strongly-worded letter campaigns? My current plan is to send personalized letters to everyone in the company right up to the CEO, and to send another to the Attorney General.
3) I've read it helps to have a clear demand with letters, but I feel like the damage has been done -- what could my potential demands be?
Phew! Sorry about the long explanation, but it is what it is.
This post was deleted for the following reason: at poster's request -- mathowie
a large national chain
Well, you know, you could have used their actual name.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:49 PM on June 5, 2009 [13 favorites]
Well, you know, you could have used their actual name.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:49 PM on June 5, 2009 [13 favorites]
Best answer: I would file a complaint with your state college of dentists (by which I mean not a school of dentistry, but the professional organization that licenses dentists -- the dentist version of the bar association). This isn't suing.
They're engaging in dangerous, unprofessional, unethical behaviour. Their professional organization needs to know this before they hurt someone.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:49 PM on June 5, 2009 [13 favorites]
They're engaging in dangerous, unprofessional, unethical behaviour. Their professional organization needs to know this before they hurt someone.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:49 PM on June 5, 2009 [13 favorites]
Seconding filing a complaint with your state's licensing board.
posted by amyms at 8:00 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by amyms at 8:00 PM on June 5, 2009
If only I was able to type and respond as quickly as If only I had a penguin...
Without suing for personal gain, set this in the hands of the state licensing board. The board has the authority, the ability and the obligation to monitor this behavior, and should be independent enough to take action on an appropriate scale.
I'm terribly sorry this happened to your Grandfather, and I am infuriated on your family's behalf as well. I truly hope you do take some further step.
posted by bunnycup at 8:13 PM on June 5, 2009
Without suing for personal gain, set this in the hands of the state licensing board. The board has the authority, the ability and the obligation to monitor this behavior, and should be independent enough to take action on an appropriate scale.
I'm terribly sorry this happened to your Grandfather, and I am infuriated on your family's behalf as well. I truly hope you do take some further step.
posted by bunnycup at 8:13 PM on June 5, 2009
3rding filing a complaint with the state board, and perhaps if they're a large national chain, contacting Consumerist would also be useful.
posted by ishotjr at 8:13 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by ishotjr at 8:13 PM on June 5, 2009
Maybe using the chain's real name would be a start, though I guess that might be dinged as a rantfilter post.
posted by crapmatic at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by crapmatic at 8:18 PM on June 5, 2009
Best answer: If you have some free time, stand outside of the building and off their property, hold a sign or pass out fliers to people heading into the parking lot. Park your car in plain view with some highly visible wording to express your displeasure with the company. Call the local news and relay your story. Write to local papers and associations. Lodge a complaint with the BBB, and/or lodge a complaint with the appropriate regulatory agencies for this particular company.
It is amazing the response you will get when you contact these various outlets(agencies). A company operating under their umbrella that has the ability to tarnish their reputation will be handed the thunder very quickly if the facts of the complaint are sound and valid, regardless of legality.
Also, if they are part of a large national chain as you say, attempt to contact customer service for the company. If you don't receive the attention that you feel is necessary, start email bombing their execs with links to the story you should probably post with The Consumerist.
In general, make anyone that will look or listen aware that these people have treated someone you care about poorly and want your story to be heard. In business they call getting customers or money making it rain. You need to be the guy that brings forth the drought.
posted by Gravitus at 8:22 PM on June 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
It is amazing the response you will get when you contact these various outlets(agencies). A company operating under their umbrella that has the ability to tarnish their reputation will be handed the thunder very quickly if the facts of the complaint are sound and valid, regardless of legality.
Also, if they are part of a large national chain as you say, attempt to contact customer service for the company. If you don't receive the attention that you feel is necessary, start email bombing their execs with links to the story you should probably post with The Consumerist.
In general, make anyone that will look or listen aware that these people have treated someone you care about poorly and want your story to be heard. In business they call getting customers or money making it rain. You need to be the guy that brings forth the drought.
posted by Gravitus at 8:22 PM on June 5, 2009 [6 favorites]
I also wanted to mention you should go to local.google.com, look up the business, and use the links presented to leave a review. When shopping for any doctor or dentist I usually check this stuff out thoroughly, so they're bound to lose some business after the way they treated your grandfather. You might also consider medical ratings sites -- the only one I've found remotely useful is www.ratemds.com.
Also consider putting up a regular website HTML webpage (not a Facebook post or blog entry) mentioning the business, their address and phone number, and the story about your grandfather. People who research the dentist in a search engine, such as for an address or phone number, will likely encounter your page since the other stuff on the web (spammy free directory garbage, etc) may not get as high of a page rank.
Sloppy medical care really pisses me off; not only is it inhumane but it's rather a damn cavalier way of doing business considering what we pay for the service and how insulated the businesses are.
posted by crapmatic at 8:32 PM on June 5, 2009
Also consider putting up a regular website HTML webpage (not a Facebook post or blog entry) mentioning the business, their address and phone number, and the story about your grandfather. People who research the dentist in a search engine, such as for an address or phone number, will likely encounter your page since the other stuff on the web (spammy free directory garbage, etc) may not get as high of a page rank.
Sloppy medical care really pisses me off; not only is it inhumane but it's rather a damn cavalier way of doing business considering what we pay for the service and how insulated the businesses are.
posted by crapmatic at 8:32 PM on June 5, 2009
First thing, tell everyone you know - including us, who they are. Word of mouth is powerful. And now, you have me curious.
Who is it?
Second, file complaints with the better business bureau and the state licensing board. Carbon copy the officers of the company on your complaint letters.
It is better to file complaints, and send copies to the corp - then write letters to the corp, and send copies to government.
posted by Flood at 8:36 PM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Who is it?
Second, file complaints with the better business bureau and the state licensing board. Carbon copy the officers of the company on your complaint letters.
It is better to file complaints, and send copies to the corp - then write letters to the corp, and send copies to government.
posted by Flood at 8:36 PM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sorry about this seriously sucky experience. I was extremely out of it after I had all four wisdom teeth removed (I apparently kept repeating the same thing to my wife - "When can we go home?" - though I remember none of it). I can't imagine how it must have felt for an older person.
So, definitely write to your state AG. There may be other state or local boards/agencies which oversee medical establishments. For example, in New York, there's the New York State Dept. of Health, and each county/city also has a local agency (eg, NYC). Worth looking into that and writing to them as well. I suggest actual, hardcopy snail mail letters rather than emails. The suggestions about dental licensing boards are good, too.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:44 PM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
So, definitely write to your state AG. There may be other state or local boards/agencies which oversee medical establishments. For example, in New York, there's the New York State Dept. of Health, and each county/city also has a local agency (eg, NYC). Worth looking into that and writing to them as well. I suggest actual, hardcopy snail mail letters rather than emails. The suggestions about dental licensing boards are good, too.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:44 PM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
I like Gravitus's approach. In addition, I'd really recommend ripping them a new one on Angie's List and Yelp. I've used both with positive results in stearing me towards good companies and away from bad ones. Go into vivid detail about exactly how bad these a-holes are. Get descriptive when you write about his condition upon discharge and what your mother went through. Use words like "neglect" and "abuse" as appropriate. If the quality of surgery was bad be sure to mention it. If it was high quality then write absolutely nothing about the surgery itself.
Stick it to 'em!
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 9:27 PM on June 5, 2009
Stick it to 'em!
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 9:27 PM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: I'm happy to share the name, but yeah: I was afraid it'd be flagged.
The chain is called Bright Now! of Olympia, Washington. I'm still getting details sorted out, but I believe it is the only place in town that accepted his Medicaid.
I really appreciate the comments and advice so far, it's helping me focus. I keep thinking that interacting with the company directly is the only path.
posted by Subspace at 9:27 PM on June 5, 2009
The chain is called Bright Now! of Olympia, Washington. I'm still getting details sorted out, but I believe it is the only place in town that accepted his Medicaid.
I really appreciate the comments and advice so far, it's helping me focus. I keep thinking that interacting with the company directly is the only path.
posted by Subspace at 9:27 PM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: Which I should edit my own comment to say: that the chain itself is called Bright Now! and is a national chain, though this event occurred at the Olympia, Washington branch.
posted by Subspace at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by Subspace at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2009
How could they discharge someone who was unconscious?
You mean he really was unconscious and they said, "Here, lump of flesh for you, mother! Ready off, homeward bound. Heave, ho and off with grandpa and his de-toothed bag of bones?"
I find this somewhat implausible.
I've had dental surgery several times (and other kinds of ambulatory surgery w. general anesthesia) and, like your grandfather, was discharged (to my fit, designated, responsible party) very soon after surgery (easily 15 minutes later).
I think the dental facility has a legal responsibility (IANAL) to make sure that your grandfather, as the patient, had a fit, designated, responsible party (in this case, your mother) available before the surgery begins and that the patient was released to that party for post-op ambulatory care.
The dental facility satisfied that responsibility, right, albeit with less bedside manner than one might have hoped for?
I think, perhaps, your mother was not a fit choice for post-op ambulatory care. As a nurse for two decades, surely she knew that grandpa would barely be able to walk on his own and would certainly not be able to help her help him, right? If she didn't, why didn't she?
I would not have chosen someone undergoing aggressive chemotherapy and not at the top of her game as the fit, designated, responsible party.
I don't mean to throw the blame in your mother's lap, but there's a reason why the party is supposed to be fit and responsible for care; because the patient will NOT be!
Be careful with erring such a grievance in public, especially for sake of emotional catharsis. You do not want to open yourself, your mother, or grandpa to something actionable, like libel or defamation (again, IANAL). And if it's a national dental facility, what are the odds that their cadre of lawyers read The Consumerist? I'd say good.
Your anger will go away in time. It will, really, I swear.
And grandpa isn't interested.
posted by foooooogasm at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
You mean he really was unconscious and they said, "Here, lump of flesh for you, mother! Ready off, homeward bound. Heave, ho and off with grandpa and his de-toothed bag of bones?"
I find this somewhat implausible.
I've had dental surgery several times (and other kinds of ambulatory surgery w. general anesthesia) and, like your grandfather, was discharged (to my fit, designated, responsible party) very soon after surgery (easily 15 minutes later).
I think the dental facility has a legal responsibility (IANAL) to make sure that your grandfather, as the patient, had a fit, designated, responsible party (in this case, your mother) available before the surgery begins and that the patient was released to that party for post-op ambulatory care.
The dental facility satisfied that responsibility, right, albeit with less bedside manner than one might have hoped for?
I think, perhaps, your mother was not a fit choice for post-op ambulatory care. As a nurse for two decades, surely she knew that grandpa would barely be able to walk on his own and would certainly not be able to help her help him, right? If she didn't, why didn't she?
I would not have chosen someone undergoing aggressive chemotherapy and not at the top of her game as the fit, designated, responsible party.
I don't mean to throw the blame in your mother's lap, but there's a reason why the party is supposed to be fit and responsible for care; because the patient will NOT be!
Be careful with erring such a grievance in public, especially for sake of emotional catharsis. You do not want to open yourself, your mother, or grandpa to something actionable, like libel or defamation (again, IANAL). And if it's a national dental facility, what are the odds that their cadre of lawyers read The Consumerist? I'd say good.
Your anger will go away in time. It will, really, I swear.
And grandpa isn't interested.
posted by foooooogasm at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: foooooogasm:
He was truly and really unconscious the first time they tried to release him. He had fluttered his eyes open maybe two or three times, but did not respond to verbal or physical stimulus. Please give my mother the benefit of the doubt on this part.
My mother is also a perfectly reasonable designated party to release him to - it's his direct kin, the person who deals with any and all of his medical issues, and she is capable of walking and talking. Even if she weren't on chemo, she is still 5 inches shorter and about 50 pounds lighter then he is: she can and did physically drag him (again: surgical nurse -- she knows how to move human beings around). None of this makes what ultimately happened acceptable.
I'm not sure what you're getting at by implying that she wasn't capable of taking care of him - should anyone be expected to carry another human being from a medical facility?
I also recently had my wisdom teeth removed, and I was allowed to lie in a recovery room for 30 minutes without being prompted to leave. After that I wanted to leave and everyone involved was worried it was too soon (I only vaguely remember being helped out).
And don't tell me what grandpa is interested in.
posted by Subspace at 9:49 PM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
He was truly and really unconscious the first time they tried to release him. He had fluttered his eyes open maybe two or three times, but did not respond to verbal or physical stimulus. Please give my mother the benefit of the doubt on this part.
My mother is also a perfectly reasonable designated party to release him to - it's his direct kin, the person who deals with any and all of his medical issues, and she is capable of walking and talking. Even if she weren't on chemo, she is still 5 inches shorter and about 50 pounds lighter then he is: she can and did physically drag him (again: surgical nurse -- she knows how to move human beings around). None of this makes what ultimately happened acceptable.
I'm not sure what you're getting at by implying that she wasn't capable of taking care of him - should anyone be expected to carry another human being from a medical facility?
I also recently had my wisdom teeth removed, and I was allowed to lie in a recovery room for 30 minutes without being prompted to leave. After that I wanted to leave and everyone involved was worried it was too soon (I only vaguely remember being helped out).
And don't tell me what grandpa is interested in.
posted by Subspace at 9:49 PM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I forgot one of the best parts! As she was leaving, a nurse handed the prescriptions to her and actually suggested that it would be best to go get them "before he wakes up."
posted by Subspace at 9:54 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by Subspace at 9:54 PM on June 5, 2009
re: And don't tell me what grandpa is interested in.
You told us yourself: "Grandpa probably has a case, but for a multitude of reasons is not going to sue."
posted by foooooogasm at 10:09 PM on June 5, 2009
You told us yourself: "Grandpa probably has a case, but for a multitude of reasons is not going to sue."
posted by foooooogasm at 10:09 PM on June 5, 2009
I know you say your grandfather doesn't want to sue, but that's really the only way they'll get the message immediately.
You can complain to the Washington State Department of Health, though. Here's more information.
posted by MegoSteve at 10:10 PM on June 5, 2009
You can complain to the Washington State Department of Health, though. Here's more information.
posted by MegoSteve at 10:10 PM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster:
re: And don't tell me what grandpa is interested in.
You told us yourself: "Grandpa probably has a case, but for a multitude of reasons is not going to sue."
Interest wasn't one of the issues. Please limit your answers to constructive ones.
posted by Subspace at 10:15 PM on June 5, 2009
re: And don't tell me what grandpa is interested in.
You told us yourself: "Grandpa probably has a case, but for a multitude of reasons is not going to sue."
Interest wasn't one of the issues. Please limit your answers to constructive ones.
posted by Subspace at 10:15 PM on June 5, 2009
2) Do you have any tips for successful strongly-worded letter campaigns? My current plan is to send personalized letters to everyone in the company right up to the CEO, and to send another to the Attorney General.
Personalized letters to everyone in the company? Quick way to make yourself look like a ridiculous lunatic.
And I don't understand why it has to be a campaign ... are you going to enlist others to vindicate your grandfather? Or are you just referring to your one-person, send-a-letter-to-everyone plan?
My advice: one reasonable-sounding letter will accomplish your goals far more effectively than a large number of letters to multiple employees.
Having said that, I think letters to the Attorney General, making "demands," etc., are going way overboard. Your grandpa is okay. Perhaps they didn't handle his discharge with the maximum of tact, but the fact that your family had a "rough day" does not necessarily justify this kind of concerted action you are contemplating. Why don't you let yourself cool down for a few weeks and then decide what to do?
posted by jayder at 10:18 PM on June 5, 2009
Personalized letters to everyone in the company? Quick way to make yourself look like a ridiculous lunatic.
And I don't understand why it has to be a campaign ... are you going to enlist others to vindicate your grandfather? Or are you just referring to your one-person, send-a-letter-to-everyone plan?
My advice: one reasonable-sounding letter will accomplish your goals far more effectively than a large number of letters to multiple employees.
Having said that, I think letters to the Attorney General, making "demands," etc., are going way overboard. Your grandpa is okay. Perhaps they didn't handle his discharge with the maximum of tact, but the fact that your family had a "rough day" does not necessarily justify this kind of concerted action you are contemplating. Why don't you let yourself cool down for a few weeks and then decide what to do?
posted by jayder at 10:18 PM on June 5, 2009
If you have some free time, stand outside of the building and off their property, hold a sign or pass out fliers to people heading into the parking lot.
Don't do this unless you want people to dismiss you as a crank.
posted by dersins at 10:20 PM on June 5, 2009
Don't do this unless you want people to dismiss you as a crank.
posted by dersins at 10:20 PM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: jayder:
I guess I was too flip about the vindication of just my grandfather: my primary concern here truly is the same thing happening to other people. I want attention drawn to a facility that considers 15 minutes recovery for a fully-sedated adult who just had an entire mouthful of teeth to be adequate. Additionally, a facility that doesn't allow for a buffer between patients is one that is quite clearly more concerned about a bottom line than patient health. If this is what all Medicaid customers have to look forward to, woe is us.
And your answer is precisely the kind of answer I am looking for: is it crazy to write a bunch of letters, or is that the only way this kind of thing works? I genuinely have no idea, I've never done this sort of thing before.
And no, I won't be standing out front with a sign. It just doesn't seem like it'd force them to monitor their practices.
posted by Subspace at 10:29 PM on June 5, 2009
I guess I was too flip about the vindication of just my grandfather: my primary concern here truly is the same thing happening to other people. I want attention drawn to a facility that considers 15 minutes recovery for a fully-sedated adult who just had an entire mouthful of teeth to be adequate. Additionally, a facility that doesn't allow for a buffer between patients is one that is quite clearly more concerned about a bottom line than patient health. If this is what all Medicaid customers have to look forward to, woe is us.
And your answer is precisely the kind of answer I am looking for: is it crazy to write a bunch of letters, or is that the only way this kind of thing works? I genuinely have no idea, I've never done this sort of thing before.
And no, I won't be standing out front with a sign. It just doesn't seem like it'd force them to monitor their practices.
posted by Subspace at 10:29 PM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: Also: a friend just made a good point outside of Mefi: nothin' says confrontation like a phone call. So, I think I'm actually going to do this first. I'm going to call them, though it'll probably have to wait until Monday. And by then I'll be calmer.
Wee!
posted by Subspace at 10:40 PM on June 5, 2009
Wee!
posted by Subspace at 10:40 PM on June 5, 2009
Give it some time and cool down. Right now you seem like you're amped up on adrenaline and looking to pick a fight. Nobody takes these people 100% seriously. If you want to effectively address the issue of making sure this doesn't happen to anyone else, I think a few strongly worded letters to people in the company are your best bet. But make sure you are coming from a rational place when you write them.
posted by pintapicasso at 10:49 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by pintapicasso at 10:49 PM on June 5, 2009
A Consumerist editor here. If you don't get a satisfactory response after talking with them, please email us your story and let us know what happened when you talked with them.
posted by jalexc at 10:53 PM on June 5, 2009 [14 favorites]
posted by jalexc at 10:53 PM on June 5, 2009 [14 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm following the calming down advice for now, thanks everyone. I'll also follow up on this post, but again, it'll likely be the next business day.
posted by Subspace at 11:05 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by Subspace at 11:05 PM on June 5, 2009
I second starting out with a phone call. A good place to start would be asking to speak with the Office Manager. Any reputable establishment will have one and they will be responsive to your concerns and will appreciate the feedback. Speaking as someone who works in the medical field, I have had good success with this approach, both personally as well as when I've been acting as a patient advocate.
If they don't take care of the situation to your satisfaction, file a complaint with the Dept of Health as suggested above. Make sure to send a copy to the Dental Clinic, return receipt requested, so that if this does go before a board, you can at least prove you made them aware of your concerns.
Good luck!
posted by cdg7707 at 12:22 AM on June 6, 2009
If they don't take care of the situation to your satisfaction, file a complaint with the Dept of Health as suggested above. Make sure to send a copy to the Dental Clinic, return receipt requested, so that if this does go before a board, you can at least prove you made them aware of your concerns.
Good luck!
posted by cdg7707 at 12:22 AM on June 6, 2009
"Revenge is a dish that tastes best cold."
Mario Puzo put those words into Don Corleones mouth, as Corleone spoke with his son Michael about how to kill the people they intended to kill, how to proceed in these matters.
Those words apply here.
Cool down.
I'm not saying don't get redneck on these people. Get redneck on them, for sure, if that is what you decide once you're calmed. But get redneck in a thoughtful, calculated, intelligent way. Use strategy, not just tactics. You can push on a rock all day and into the night and not budge it one inch. Instead, it's better to think for a day and a night, or more, about where to put the lever, what lever to use, what direction you want to move that rock. Jamming the lever in and pushing the rock takes no time at all, once you've got it planned out well.
Alternately, you may decide to let this one go. Pick your battles. We have only so much energy, so much time. I know you're angry, and I do not blame you. I want to burn the place down, and burn down the house of the tech who sent your grandfather on his way, also. But I cannot afford the luxury of holding those thoughts -- and it is a luxury, but a dubious luxury, from what I've been told -- and neither can you, seems we are not designed to carry these sorts of thought patterns, they trash our souls, tear through them like acid through a leather sack. A leather sack can hold many things -- gold, for example, you can fill it to the top with gold and it'll hold just fine -- but it just won't work with resentments of this nature. Take care of yourself.
Your grandfather is alive. I'm grateful for that, also that he is alert and awake and strong at 94. There are bigger problems in life. There are smaller ones also. It's up to you to decide, for sure. But if you do decide to take any action, I hope you'll do so from a place of thoughtful reflection, the anger leeched out of you. Consult an attorney, to cover your bases, and also to get more insight into how best to use that dang lever -- attorneys can REALLY get redneck if they're sharp, and he/she will be detached from the emotion, and will see straighter.
Good luck to you and to your grandfather and to your mother.
I wish you peace.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:35 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Mario Puzo put those words into Don Corleones mouth, as Corleone spoke with his son Michael about how to kill the people they intended to kill, how to proceed in these matters.
Those words apply here.
Cool down.
I'm not saying don't get redneck on these people. Get redneck on them, for sure, if that is what you decide once you're calmed. But get redneck in a thoughtful, calculated, intelligent way. Use strategy, not just tactics. You can push on a rock all day and into the night and not budge it one inch. Instead, it's better to think for a day and a night, or more, about where to put the lever, what lever to use, what direction you want to move that rock. Jamming the lever in and pushing the rock takes no time at all, once you've got it planned out well.
Alternately, you may decide to let this one go. Pick your battles. We have only so much energy, so much time. I know you're angry, and I do not blame you. I want to burn the place down, and burn down the house of the tech who sent your grandfather on his way, also. But I cannot afford the luxury of holding those thoughts -- and it is a luxury, but a dubious luxury, from what I've been told -- and neither can you, seems we are not designed to carry these sorts of thought patterns, they trash our souls, tear through them like acid through a leather sack. A leather sack can hold many things -- gold, for example, you can fill it to the top with gold and it'll hold just fine -- but it just won't work with resentments of this nature. Take care of yourself.
Your grandfather is alive. I'm grateful for that, also that he is alert and awake and strong at 94. There are bigger problems in life. There are smaller ones also. It's up to you to decide, for sure. But if you do decide to take any action, I hope you'll do so from a place of thoughtful reflection, the anger leeched out of you. Consult an attorney, to cover your bases, and also to get more insight into how best to use that dang lever -- attorneys can REALLY get redneck if they're sharp, and he/she will be detached from the emotion, and will see straighter.
Good luck to you and to your grandfather and to your mother.
I wish you peace.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:35 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Since he went because they accept Medicaid, I'd follow that path up through the Health and Human Services. Be sure which you mean, though: Medicaid (for lower-income people) or Medicare (for older people)... both are served by the Health and Human Services, though.
Perhaps also contact the AARP for suggestions of how to warn other older people.
And of course, write a letter to be published in the local paper, and perhaps contact the local news stations.
posted by Houstonian at 1:15 AM on June 6, 2009
Perhaps also contact the AARP for suggestions of how to warn other older people.
And of course, write a letter to be published in the local paper, and perhaps contact the local news stations.
posted by Houstonian at 1:15 AM on June 6, 2009
I agree you should proceed when you've cooled down, but don't forget how angry you are right now, you will need to remember your anger to fuel your quest. While there is some good advice above about perhaps just letting it go, I imagine someone else is probably going to be equally as angry with this clinic sometime soon if you don't speak up, so good on you for demanding some satisfaction.
Decide what your goal is. A personal apology? A promise that this will not happen in the future to anyone else? A change in their business practices? Discipline or firing for whoever made the wrong call(s)? Once you have decided on a goal, your course of action will be clearer. For example, if all you really want is an apology, a call to their office would be a good start, with perhaps a follow-up visit if you want to look someone in the eye and have them say "sorry." If your goal is to keep this from happening to anyone else, you really have little choice but to contact the licensing agency and other official bodies--the odds are very long that without some pressure from someone who could potentially affect their bottom line they'll change their ways.
In all dealings with this company, keep your cool, be firm but polite. If your decided course of action includes dealings with the media or blogs, be rational and calm while still getting your message across. You should have a short, clear summary of what happened and what you want done about it prepared (in your head). Dress nicely for any meetings or interviews. Your goal is to be an upstanding member of society who is calmly pursuing justice.
Your grandfather is a man who probably (based on his age) served his country in WW2 and has raised a family he's proud of among his many other accomplishments. It doesn't hurt to remind whoever you're dealing with that this isn't an abstraction--your grandfather deserved to be treated with respect, not as a billing number, and that's the heart of your endeavor.
Finally, before you pursue anything public, like a protest or talking with the media, be sure your mother and grandfather are OK with that, as there is a possibility the media may not be interested without access to either or both of them.
posted by maxwelton at 1:36 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Decide what your goal is. A personal apology? A promise that this will not happen in the future to anyone else? A change in their business practices? Discipline or firing for whoever made the wrong call(s)? Once you have decided on a goal, your course of action will be clearer. For example, if all you really want is an apology, a call to their office would be a good start, with perhaps a follow-up visit if you want to look someone in the eye and have them say "sorry." If your goal is to keep this from happening to anyone else, you really have little choice but to contact the licensing agency and other official bodies--the odds are very long that without some pressure from someone who could potentially affect their bottom line they'll change their ways.
In all dealings with this company, keep your cool, be firm but polite. If your decided course of action includes dealings with the media or blogs, be rational and calm while still getting your message across. You should have a short, clear summary of what happened and what you want done about it prepared (in your head). Dress nicely for any meetings or interviews. Your goal is to be an upstanding member of society who is calmly pursuing justice.
Your grandfather is a man who probably (based on his age) served his country in WW2 and has raised a family he's proud of among his many other accomplishments. It doesn't hurt to remind whoever you're dealing with that this isn't an abstraction--your grandfather deserved to be treated with respect, not as a billing number, and that's the heart of your endeavor.
Finally, before you pursue anything public, like a protest or talking with the media, be sure your mother and grandfather are OK with that, as there is a possibility the media may not be interested without access to either or both of them.
posted by maxwelton at 1:36 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I meant to add--my least satisfactory dealings with people and companies when I've been slighted or ripped off have been when I've called while angry but without a goal. Calling up and ranting is sometimes cathartic, but rarely results in anything actually changing. It's important to communicate your displeasure but it's equally important to have an "action item" they can act on to bring closure. And if they cannot or will not act in a way to bring you satisfaction, then you start going up the chain.
posted by maxwelton at 1:43 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 1:43 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Licensing board is the way to go. Make complaints against the dentists, as well as the people. Get a follow up with a doctor to see if your Grandpa is ok.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:38 AM on June 6, 2009
posted by Ironmouth at 6:38 AM on June 6, 2009
Also, to make it stick, draft sworn affidaivits. Look for an example on the web, type up what happened in numbered paragraph form and then go to a notary and sign them and get them notarzied. Then draft a strongly-worded letter to the licensing body, with the affidavits attached. Copy that letter and send it to the licensing authority. At the same time, draft a similar letter to the legal department of the chain and enclose a copy of the original letter you send to the licensing board.
The company will get a shock then.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:45 AM on June 6, 2009 [3 favorites]
The company will get a shock then.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:45 AM on June 6, 2009 [3 favorites]
Also: a friend just made a good point outside of Mefi: nothin' says confrontation like a phone call.
I recommend against this; written communication is taken much more seriously. Someone calling up to complain? It's over when they hangup, and there isn't necessarily any record that it ever happened.
posted by dilettante at 7:46 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I recommend against this; written communication is taken much more seriously. Someone calling up to complain? It's over when they hangup, and there isn't necessarily any record that it ever happened.
posted by dilettante at 7:46 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I just want to echo what Maxwelton is saying. An effective complaint isn't just the catharsis of 'taking it to' someone. You need to figure out what the outcome you want would be.
In an idealized sense your conversation would hit all the points:
1> I'd like us to acknowledge that there was an agreement/understanding based on reasonable expectations that (a) my grandfather would have adequate recovery time to demonstrate that there were likely no immediate complications and could participate in his own discharge and (b) that when promised a follow-up call to check on his condition from your practice, that call would happen.
2 > I can show that this agreement was not met, and want your acknowledgment of that
3 > This makes me angry because...
4 > (and most important) as a result I am now asking you to undertake/promise 'X' to make the situation better, as it is too late to keep the original agreement.
If you have no clear idea of what X is, then your conversation won't and can't lead to any meaningful change.
It is possible, or even likely, that the person you talk to will attempt to dispute the understanding or facts. This is where you need to be calm. If you won't listen to them, they probably won't listen to you. But listening doesn't mean letting go of your own facts or objective. Come back to what you see as reasonable and what facts happened. If your focus is on the new outcome X you don't need complete agreement from them on their sins, just enough to have the conversation about what they should do now.
posted by meinvt at 8:40 AM on June 6, 2009
In an idealized sense your conversation would hit all the points:
1> I'd like us to acknowledge that there was an agreement/understanding based on reasonable expectations that (a) my grandfather would have adequate recovery time to demonstrate that there were likely no immediate complications and could participate in his own discharge and (b) that when promised a follow-up call to check on his condition from your practice, that call would happen.
2 > I can show that this agreement was not met, and want your acknowledgment of that
3 > This makes me angry because...
4 > (and most important) as a result I am now asking you to undertake/promise 'X' to make the situation better, as it is too late to keep the original agreement.
If you have no clear idea of what X is, then your conversation won't and can't lead to any meaningful change.
It is possible, or even likely, that the person you talk to will attempt to dispute the understanding or facts. This is where you need to be calm. If you won't listen to them, they probably won't listen to you. But listening doesn't mean letting go of your own facts or objective. Come back to what you see as reasonable and what facts happened. If your focus is on the new outcome X you don't need complete agreement from them on their sins, just enough to have the conversation about what they should do now.
posted by meinvt at 8:40 AM on June 6, 2009
Seconding attorney general, despite jayder's reasonable advice. When I had problems with a health insurance company, I called the regional office of my state's DOJ. The guy who took my call had a lot of useful information about the company, and told me exactly how to proceed if I chose to do so. In the end, I did not push it farther along the DOJ chain, but having talked to that office was a positive experience. So I recommend calling the state DOJ's branch in your area.
Licensing Board and Better Business Bureau also seem like good routes. You want to send well-written, non-crazy, short letters that explain your experience. Send a copy of the letter and another letter to the dentist. You want the dentist to know you're taking this seriously and you are contacting the DOJ, Licensing Board and BBB. No phone call to the dentist. Letter by certified mail.
This is what makes your case somewhat problematic: is that it is not clear what you want to achieve. In my case, I had a clear-cut problem that I needed to solve. What do you want? Fees reduced, an apology, or do you just want your complaint to go into the dentist's record? I don't mean to snark.
Decide what you want before you send letters or contact the DOJ branch. In the process of deciding you might conclude that complaining is not worth your time.
Perhaps a question for next week, or maybe someone could answer here in this thread, is what precisely is a reasonable expectation of redress by a letter sent to the right places?
Angies List, Yelp, etc., I dunno. I never believe any reviews I read on the internet. The only people motivated to write are the ones with bad experiences. What caused their bad experience is impossible to determine hearing only one side of the story. I wouldn't waste my time with online reviews.
Do not call the dentist. All communication in writing, certified mail. That way they know you mean business. Call the DOJ and BBB. You could even call the licensing board if you are unclear about how to submit a complaint in the latter case.
I am not a lawyer, I am just someone who complains to businesses a lot and usually gets results.
posted by vincele at 8:47 AM on June 6, 2009
Licensing Board and Better Business Bureau also seem like good routes. You want to send well-written, non-crazy, short letters that explain your experience. Send a copy of the letter and another letter to the dentist. You want the dentist to know you're taking this seriously and you are contacting the DOJ, Licensing Board and BBB. No phone call to the dentist. Letter by certified mail.
This is what makes your case somewhat problematic: is that it is not clear what you want to achieve. In my case, I had a clear-cut problem that I needed to solve. What do you want? Fees reduced, an apology, or do you just want your complaint to go into the dentist's record? I don't mean to snark.
Decide what you want before you send letters or contact the DOJ branch. In the process of deciding you might conclude that complaining is not worth your time.
Perhaps a question for next week, or maybe someone could answer here in this thread, is what precisely is a reasonable expectation of redress by a letter sent to the right places?
Angies List, Yelp, etc., I dunno. I never believe any reviews I read on the internet. The only people motivated to write are the ones with bad experiences. What caused their bad experience is impossible to determine hearing only one side of the story. I wouldn't waste my time with online reviews.
Do not call the dentist. All communication in writing, certified mail. That way they know you mean business. Call the DOJ and BBB. You could even call the licensing board if you are unclear about how to submit a complaint in the latter case.
I am not a lawyer, I am just someone who complains to businesses a lot and usually gets results.
posted by vincele at 8:47 AM on June 6, 2009
One more thing: request the dentist respond to your complaints by certified mail. Don't settle for a phone discussion of your letter.
(I'm not a crank, I've just had my share of problems with evil corporations that rhyme with Bombast and Shoe Cross.) I've found these methods generally cut through layers of bullshit. Notice I don't threaten to involve an attorney, or sue. Don't make threats you're not willing to follow through, even if you are prepared to sue, don't come out with guns blazing.
posted by vincele at 9:08 AM on June 6, 2009
(I'm not a crank, I've just had my share of problems with evil corporations that rhyme with Bombast and Shoe Cross.) I've found these methods generally cut through layers of bullshit. Notice I don't threaten to involve an attorney, or sue. Don't make threats you're not willing to follow through, even if you are prepared to sue, don't come out with guns blazing.
posted by vincele at 9:08 AM on June 6, 2009
Along with the Dental Licensing Board, contact the American Society of Anesthesiologists. there are several clearly defined sets of guidelines that have been at least partially "overlooked". Particularly: Guidelines for Office-Based Anesthesia and Standards for Postanesthesia Care. Also worth shotting complaints to are: The Anesthesia Patient Safety Foundation. The National Patient Safety Foundation. The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Now get busy drowning the thoughtless schmucks in letterhead.
posted by EnsignLunchmeat at 10:15 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by EnsignLunchmeat at 10:15 AM on June 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: There has been a lot of excellent and thoughtful advice given to me as well as the one bad egg I generally expect from the internet (someone sent me a curiously impersonal personal email that says "Some crazy woman with the alias Subspace on AskMeFi posted this tirade: (this URL) We took the liberty of sending that link with information about the post to the company she accuses in question." -- it would appear that asking advice for how to react in to an upsetting event gets me called "crazy").
I agree that this is a good time for reflection on what is worth getting angry over. One reason my grandpa didn't want to raise a fuss is that he's not yet healed and doesn't want to cause himself any more problems by pissing off the clinic, a concern I totally respect (and, luckily, kept me from calling and screaming at them right then). Despite his being in excellent condition for a man his age, I think he's aware of the fact that his elder status creates a kind of blind-spot in care-givers. He's quiet and doesn't complain, so he must not be in pain, right? That sort of thing.
As several people have suggested, I've written out what my final expectation is (to change company policy so that this doesn't happen to anyone else foremost, and an apology second) as well as specific events that could be addressed by policy change (primarily bed turn-over time - the pressure on the nurses to get patients back out the door is too high). As I previously mentioned, I'll update this thread when I have a chance to finally speak to someone on Monday.
And also again: I thank everyone for the thoughtful advice.
posted by Subspace at 5:53 PM on June 6, 2009
I agree that this is a good time for reflection on what is worth getting angry over. One reason my grandpa didn't want to raise a fuss is that he's not yet healed and doesn't want to cause himself any more problems by pissing off the clinic, a concern I totally respect (and, luckily, kept me from calling and screaming at them right then). Despite his being in excellent condition for a man his age, I think he's aware of the fact that his elder status creates a kind of blind-spot in care-givers. He's quiet and doesn't complain, so he must not be in pain, right? That sort of thing.
As several people have suggested, I've written out what my final expectation is (to change company policy so that this doesn't happen to anyone else foremost, and an apology second) as well as specific events that could be addressed by policy change (primarily bed turn-over time - the pressure on the nurses to get patients back out the door is too high). As I previously mentioned, I'll update this thread when I have a chance to finally speak to someone on Monday.
And also again: I thank everyone for the thoughtful advice.
posted by Subspace at 5:53 PM on June 6, 2009
This would be a quick story for your local action news team to throw together.
posted by rigby51 at 6:11 PM on June 6, 2009
posted by rigby51 at 6:11 PM on June 6, 2009
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