Take my husband, please!
June 5, 2009 10:22 AM Subscribe
How can I motivate my husband to look for a job? (Really long story and employment history inside.)
Executive summary: My husband is losing his job in four months, but isn't taking advantage of this advance warning at all by looking for a new job or really doing anything to prepare for the loss of his job. He has a track record of not putting effort into these types of things, which somehow worked out okay in the past, but in the current economy I don't think things will turn out so well if he just waits for another job to find him.
Long story: My husband's work history is basically made up of "happening" into jobs. His parents have owned a seasonal business since he was about seven, so he spent every summer working there and never needed to look for a job. After he graduated from college, his girlfriend at the time badgered him to get a job, so he started temping, and one of those jobs ended up becoming permanent. Several years later, he was laid off from that job and did pretty much nothing for almost a year, when his previous employer hired him back. After another year, that entire department was eliminated so he was laid off again. (It was around this point, while he was unemployed, that we got married.)
He temped a bit, and toyed with the idea of starting his own business painting murals, utilizing his BA in Fine Art. To encourage him in his business, I paid for him to attend classes on starting a business, had him meet with a relative who owns a business, and he even spent a day with a successful local mural artist. But he didn't really put any effort into his own business and spent every day either at home goofing around on the internet, or at his parents' house playing his brother's Xbox. He would get mad at me when I came home from work and asked how his mural business was going.
At some point, his brother told him that their mom was crying about the fact that he was unemployed and playing video games at their house all day, and this is what motivated him to get a job with the company his brother worked for. It was a crappy job with low pay that he hated and was overqualified for, but two years later he's still working there, so it obviously can't be that bad. Slowly, the situation appeared worse and worse for his company, and finally it was announced a couple months ago that they would be going out of business and everyone will lose their jobs October 30th.
The moment he called me with this news, I said, "Take advantage of this situation, most people don't have months and months to plan, now you have lots of time to look for a new job." So far he hasn't done anything. He had one (his first) full-price, paying mural job recently, and several other potential clients have shown interest but then backed out or are putting off having him do work. So I don't know if he's really banking on the mural business taking off, but I just don't see it happening, at least not in the near future.
I hate nagging him and he hates when I nag him, and obviously it doesn't work. I've threatened that if November 1st rolls around and he's sitting at home all day again, I'm moving out of the house, which I would hate to do and he wouldn't like either, but I think now he thinks that's what's going to happen, because he keeps mentioning it. When I bring up the fact that he should be looking for a job, he gets defensive, says he's "busy" (with what, I have no idea - he's not working on any murals, and he's pretty much dropped out of all other extracurricular activities he was involved in [band, amateur stand-up comedy, etc.]), and won't discuss the situation.
I've been very supportive of him. I'm constantly looking for jobs for him, I sent him to those business classes, I paid for him to take a web design class so he'd have an additional skill to add to his resume. But because he's had so many unsuccessful interviews in the past, I think he's discouraged when it comes to job-hunting. I don't care what he does or how much money he makes, as long as he has a reason to get up and go somewhere every day. Short of moving out, or hiring someone to stay with him all day and keep him on task while he looks for work, what can I do to show him that I'm serious and he should be, too?
If nothing else, if you've made it this far, thank you for allowing me to vent about this frustrating situation.
Executive summary: My husband is losing his job in four months, but isn't taking advantage of this advance warning at all by looking for a new job or really doing anything to prepare for the loss of his job. He has a track record of not putting effort into these types of things, which somehow worked out okay in the past, but in the current economy I don't think things will turn out so well if he just waits for another job to find him.
Long story: My husband's work history is basically made up of "happening" into jobs. His parents have owned a seasonal business since he was about seven, so he spent every summer working there and never needed to look for a job. After he graduated from college, his girlfriend at the time badgered him to get a job, so he started temping, and one of those jobs ended up becoming permanent. Several years later, he was laid off from that job and did pretty much nothing for almost a year, when his previous employer hired him back. After another year, that entire department was eliminated so he was laid off again. (It was around this point, while he was unemployed, that we got married.)
He temped a bit, and toyed with the idea of starting his own business painting murals, utilizing his BA in Fine Art. To encourage him in his business, I paid for him to attend classes on starting a business, had him meet with a relative who owns a business, and he even spent a day with a successful local mural artist. But he didn't really put any effort into his own business and spent every day either at home goofing around on the internet, or at his parents' house playing his brother's Xbox. He would get mad at me when I came home from work and asked how his mural business was going.
At some point, his brother told him that their mom was crying about the fact that he was unemployed and playing video games at their house all day, and this is what motivated him to get a job with the company his brother worked for. It was a crappy job with low pay that he hated and was overqualified for, but two years later he's still working there, so it obviously can't be that bad. Slowly, the situation appeared worse and worse for his company, and finally it was announced a couple months ago that they would be going out of business and everyone will lose their jobs October 30th.
The moment he called me with this news, I said, "Take advantage of this situation, most people don't have months and months to plan, now you have lots of time to look for a new job." So far he hasn't done anything. He had one (his first) full-price, paying mural job recently, and several other potential clients have shown interest but then backed out or are putting off having him do work. So I don't know if he's really banking on the mural business taking off, but I just don't see it happening, at least not in the near future.
I hate nagging him and he hates when I nag him, and obviously it doesn't work. I've threatened that if November 1st rolls around and he's sitting at home all day again, I'm moving out of the house, which I would hate to do and he wouldn't like either, but I think now he thinks that's what's going to happen, because he keeps mentioning it. When I bring up the fact that he should be looking for a job, he gets defensive, says he's "busy" (with what, I have no idea - he's not working on any murals, and he's pretty much dropped out of all other extracurricular activities he was involved in [band, amateur stand-up comedy, etc.]), and won't discuss the situation.
I've been very supportive of him. I'm constantly looking for jobs for him, I sent him to those business classes, I paid for him to take a web design class so he'd have an additional skill to add to his resume. But because he's had so many unsuccessful interviews in the past, I think he's discouraged when it comes to job-hunting. I don't care what he does or how much money he makes, as long as he has a reason to get up and go somewhere every day. Short of moving out, or hiring someone to stay with him all day and keep him on task while he looks for work, what can I do to show him that I'm serious and he should be, too?
If nothing else, if you've made it this far, thank you for allowing me to vent about this frustrating situation.
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- cortex
*how to spend HIS time is what I meant to say
posted by sickinthehead at 10:30 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by sickinthehead at 10:30 AM on June 5, 2009
Wow, you've really given it the old college try, and I applaud you for it.
I WAS your husband for a period. In 2002 I was degreed but chose to not work. I had plans of my own to start my own business, and worked on it some, but my days also ended up being spent playing video games and doing various odd jobs for scrap cash while my wife worked full time. The bills fell behind, then they fell behind more. Finally I ended up underemployed in an $8 an hour job just trying to pay some of the bills.
The worst part was the transition from not-working-or-having-any-responsibilities to working full time was HARD.
So I understand your husband's desire to let it slide and if something comes along, great, and if not, hey he didn't work before so he can not work again now.
I think you made the right choice in saying you would move out if he doesn't get off his ass. It's a hard line that sometimes needs to be taken, and I hope you're not bluffing with that.
That said, you need to impress upon him that he is your husband, not a boyfriend, not a brother. Marriage is as much a business contract as anything and it's completely unfair for you to work full time and pay every bill while he chooses to play video games all day. If it was something you agreed upon together, if he was also raising the kids, etc. then it's a different story. But he's unilaterally deciding to be a bum, and that's not what a marriage is.
I think you've done a good job so far, but I wonder if the approach has been either passive-aggressive or aggressive-aggressive (i.e. accusatory)?
I'd say sit down and have a serious talk with him, and stress that it's important enough that he stay for the talk. Tell him why you FEEL how you do about the possibility of him not working. Tell him it's unfair, and tell him that marriage is a partnership and he needs to pull his weight. If he says he's busy with other things, pin him down on WHAT other things, and how they will add to the household bank account.
If he respects you then he will do these things. If he doesn't respect you then the marriage has bigger problems of which this is a symptom, not a cause.
Good luck, and perhaps post back later with follow-up on how it went.
posted by arniec at 10:34 AM on June 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
I WAS your husband for a period. In 2002 I was degreed but chose to not work. I had plans of my own to start my own business, and worked on it some, but my days also ended up being spent playing video games and doing various odd jobs for scrap cash while my wife worked full time. The bills fell behind, then they fell behind more. Finally I ended up underemployed in an $8 an hour job just trying to pay some of the bills.
The worst part was the transition from not-working-or-having-any-responsibilities to working full time was HARD.
So I understand your husband's desire to let it slide and if something comes along, great, and if not, hey he didn't work before so he can not work again now.
I think you made the right choice in saying you would move out if he doesn't get off his ass. It's a hard line that sometimes needs to be taken, and I hope you're not bluffing with that.
That said, you need to impress upon him that he is your husband, not a boyfriend, not a brother. Marriage is as much a business contract as anything and it's completely unfair for you to work full time and pay every bill while he chooses to play video games all day. If it was something you agreed upon together, if he was also raising the kids, etc. then it's a different story. But he's unilaterally deciding to be a bum, and that's not what a marriage is.
I think you've done a good job so far, but I wonder if the approach has been either passive-aggressive or aggressive-aggressive (i.e. accusatory)?
I'd say sit down and have a serious talk with him, and stress that it's important enough that he stay for the talk. Tell him why you FEEL how you do about the possibility of him not working. Tell him it's unfair, and tell him that marriage is a partnership and he needs to pull his weight. If he says he's busy with other things, pin him down on WHAT other things, and how they will add to the household bank account.
If he respects you then he will do these things. If he doesn't respect you then the marriage has bigger problems of which this is a symptom, not a cause.
Good luck, and perhaps post back later with follow-up on how it went.
posted by arniec at 10:34 AM on June 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
You've nagged him ineffectually, threatened him with a massive ultimatum even though he is not now unemployed, and you consider what you're doing "supportive?" No wonder he's depressed and withdrawing! You're treating him like crap.
It doesn't excuse his behavior or his lack of ambition, but nonetheless you should really consider not busting his balls so hard because that's not really helping. It's possible he'll lose his job on 10/30, and that come November (a couple of days later!) he'll file for UI. You seriously think that's a situation that merits moving out, nagging, and patronizing him?
posted by majick at 10:35 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
It doesn't excuse his behavior or his lack of ambition, but nonetheless you should really consider not busting his balls so hard because that's not really helping. It's possible he'll lose his job on 10/30, and that come November (a couple of days later!) he'll file for UI. You seriously think that's a situation that merits moving out, nagging, and patronizing him?
posted by majick at 10:35 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
A few things to note:
1. You cannot control what he does or doesn't do, so you can't take responsibility for his actions. You can't -make- him do anything. Only he can.
2. You've set a boundary - November 1st. Stick to it. If that day comes and the criteria you have set are not met, you move out. To do anything else will communicate to your husband that you are not serious, and he will not give ANY of your boundaries any credibility.
3. Stop nagging him. You've told him what you expect. You've told him what the consequences would be. Now you have to let him make his own choices about what he's going to do.
I have a friend who recently went through something really very similar, and you have my sympathies.
posted by DWRoelands at 10:40 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
1. You cannot control what he does or doesn't do, so you can't take responsibility for his actions. You can't -make- him do anything. Only he can.
2. You've set a boundary - November 1st. Stick to it. If that day comes and the criteria you have set are not met, you move out. To do anything else will communicate to your husband that you are not serious, and he will not give ANY of your boundaries any credibility.
3. Stop nagging him. You've told him what you expect. You've told him what the consequences would be. Now you have to let him make his own choices about what he's going to do.
I have a friend who recently went through something really very similar, and you have my sympathies.
posted by DWRoelands at 10:40 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
On the one hand, October 30th is almost five months away, and as you say, that’s a more generous notice than most people who are being laid off are getting these days. Perhaps you can enlist your mother-in-law to nag your husband again about his job hunt so you don't have to? On the other hand, you did marry an unemployed man with a BA in Fine Art and your husband clearly knows this.
posted by applemeat at 10:40 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by applemeat at 10:40 AM on June 5, 2009
It's hard to make someone take initiative if they don't have much innate drive. I think continuing down this path of nagging and babysitting him will make you feel frustrated and unappreciated and will make him feel infantalized and angry.
Instead, why don't you try letting him handle the situation for a limited time and asking what his plans are. Don't check in on him, just say you'd feel better knowing that he's thought this out and made a plan.
Maybe you could set a date like Sept 15, where if things aren't working out his way, he can try your way and then you could check in and help search and not be resented for it since it was what you'd both agreed would happen.
That would let him have some time free of harassment in which he might start looking around or find something on his own, and let you off the hook and enjoy your time with him instead of being annoyed at him. It also leaves a buffer before the end of his job so that if his way hasn't worked out, you have enough time to do some "LolaGeek Boot Camp"-style job search and applications.
posted by rmless at 10:41 AM on June 5, 2009
Instead, why don't you try letting him handle the situation for a limited time and asking what his plans are. Don't check in on him, just say you'd feel better knowing that he's thought this out and made a plan.
Maybe you could set a date like Sept 15, where if things aren't working out his way, he can try your way and then you could check in and help search and not be resented for it since it was what you'd both agreed would happen.
That would let him have some time free of harassment in which he might start looking around or find something on his own, and let you off the hook and enjoy your time with him instead of being annoyed at him. It also leaves a buffer before the end of his job so that if his way hasn't worked out, you have enough time to do some "LolaGeek Boot Camp"-style job search and applications.
posted by rmless at 10:41 AM on June 5, 2009
I have been in your situation twice and from my experience, it doesn't have a happy ending. I'm not saying DTMFA, but be prepared that he's not gonna change.
My first real boyfriend was an artist, we met in college and while after graduation I went out and got the first shitty job that came along, he waited for the "perfect" gig. Long story short, out of the 8 1/2 years we were together, he worked a culumulative 2 years tops. And that was at a variety of short lived stints. Like you I never cared what he did, I just wanted him to be happy.
The boyfriend after him was much like your husband, he lucked into jobs and was working when we started dating. But after a year, and moving in with me, the teaching gig he had was "too demanding" and ate up too much of his time and he quit. In the following 4 years, he had a few jobs for less than six month stretches, all the while insisting that he was gonna start his own business and get free of the man. Again, I really didn't care what he was doing with himself, only that he could be happy and possibly contribute a little to household finances.
In both cases I made a conscious effort to not nag and be supportive but nothing positive resulted. The first boyfriend is now gainfully employed and has been for quite some time because his new girlfriend laid down the law for him. The last one his gainfully employeed and is buying his own house because I kicked him out last year.
What I've learned is that in these situation, where there is a pattern of being unmotivated to find work, these folks don't change. You either embrace the fact that you'll always be the sole earner in the family, or you leave. And it's only gonna get harder and harder to see this person as your equal and your partner when he continually exhibits behavior that is less than responsible.
If you're committed to staying in the marriage, you both may want to seek counseling to find out why he's unable to commit to a job or look for work. I get that, it's scary and unpleasant and avoidance may be the easiest option. But in the long run and for the health of your marriage, avoidance will only end in pain for the both of you.
posted by teleri025 at 10:42 AM on June 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
My first real boyfriend was an artist, we met in college and while after graduation I went out and got the first shitty job that came along, he waited for the "perfect" gig. Long story short, out of the 8 1/2 years we were together, he worked a culumulative 2 years tops. And that was at a variety of short lived stints. Like you I never cared what he did, I just wanted him to be happy.
The boyfriend after him was much like your husband, he lucked into jobs and was working when we started dating. But after a year, and moving in with me, the teaching gig he had was "too demanding" and ate up too much of his time and he quit. In the following 4 years, he had a few jobs for less than six month stretches, all the while insisting that he was gonna start his own business and get free of the man. Again, I really didn't care what he was doing with himself, only that he could be happy and possibly contribute a little to household finances.
In both cases I made a conscious effort to not nag and be supportive but nothing positive resulted. The first boyfriend is now gainfully employed and has been for quite some time because his new girlfriend laid down the law for him. The last one his gainfully employeed and is buying his own house because I kicked him out last year.
What I've learned is that in these situation, where there is a pattern of being unmotivated to find work, these folks don't change. You either embrace the fact that you'll always be the sole earner in the family, or you leave. And it's only gonna get harder and harder to see this person as your equal and your partner when he continually exhibits behavior that is less than responsible.
If you're committed to staying in the marriage, you both may want to seek counseling to find out why he's unable to commit to a job or look for work. I get that, it's scary and unpleasant and avoidance may be the easiest option. But in the long run and for the health of your marriage, avoidance will only end in pain for the both of you.
posted by teleri025 at 10:42 AM on June 5, 2009 [5 favorites]
Why should he be motivated? Everyone, especially you, has been enabling him NOT to be motivated. You have good intentions, but supporting lame behavior doesn't help people grow, ever ever ever. EVER.
Emotional pushes like nagging and his mom crying can't be relied upon. Why should you have to nag, cry, or do ANY legwork here?
I mean this with all sympathy: *he's* being a big fat loser, but *you* are being the problem. Stop supporting him. Set a date, and move out or put all his crap on the doorstep and change the locks. No more looking for jobs for him, no more nagging. You don't have to get divorced, but you do have to send a clear signal, with consequences and an end date.
Again, my sympathies. But the person you need to motivate? is YOU.
(yeah, we have one of these in our family, too.)
posted by mdiskin at 10:44 AM on June 5, 2009 [7 favorites]
Emotional pushes like nagging and his mom crying can't be relied upon. Why should you have to nag, cry, or do ANY legwork here?
I mean this with all sympathy: *he's* being a big fat loser, but *you* are being the problem. Stop supporting him. Set a date, and move out or put all his crap on the doorstep and change the locks. No more looking for jobs for him, no more nagging. You don't have to get divorced, but you do have to send a clear signal, with consequences and an end date.
Again, my sympathies. But the person you need to motivate? is YOU.
(yeah, we have one of these in our family, too.)
posted by mdiskin at 10:44 AM on June 5, 2009 [7 favorites]
he's not working on any murals, and he's pretty much dropped out of all other extracurricular activities he was involved in [band, amateur stand-up comedy, etc.]), and won't discuss the situation.
Time for therapy, probably both couples and mental health. I think the employment issues are secondary to the fact that your marriage is one of mother and child rather than husband and wife.
posted by benzenedream at 10:45 AM on June 5, 2009
Time for therapy, probably both couples and mental health. I think the employment issues are secondary to the fact that your marriage is one of mother and child rather than husband and wife.
posted by benzenedream at 10:45 AM on June 5, 2009
Why should he be motivated? Everyone, especially you, has been enabling him NOT to be motivated.
This is what I came here to say. You have trained him to be the lackadaisical slacker he is. This is not a slam at you—obviously, you love him and you were trying to do the right thing—but you need to stop doing that, and be prepared to let him stew in his own penury if it comes to that.
posted by languagehat at 10:49 AM on June 5, 2009
This is what I came here to say. You have trained him to be the lackadaisical slacker he is. This is not a slam at you—obviously, you love him and you were trying to do the right thing—but you need to stop doing that, and be prepared to let him stew in his own penury if it comes to that.
posted by languagehat at 10:49 AM on June 5, 2009
I don't see it as ball-busting; I see it as stating one's needs clearly and laying out the consequences if they aren't met. That's adult behavior.
Your husband's behavior is not adult. His behavior sounds like mine when I worked through a string of fairly crappy jobs in my 20s, and in the periods when I was unemployed, I didn't do much to change that status. I was clinically depressed, and while I'm not a psychologist, therapist etc., if you get him to do nothing else, you should get him to see his doctor before his benefits run out, and have him evaluated for depression.
If it isn't depression - and it might not be, as there are plenty of unmotivated, non-depressed people in the world - can you enlist his family to (gently, non-naggingly) help you help him? When someone works themselves into a cycle of shame/avoidance/defensiveness/withdrawal, it's nearly impossible to nag someone out of it, as the nagging just feeds it. If you can get him to do some sort of activity - a volunteer project with Habitat, or a cleanup day at the park, or anything really - that might help break the do-nothing entropy. Do this activity with him - figure out some fun, positive, makes-you-both-feel-good thing, and don't talk about work or finding a job or whatever, just let him know that you love spending time with him when he's engaged and happy. Positive reinforcement, in other words.
I have no idea if this will help him, or you. But the negative reinforcement hasn't (and probably won't) help, so you have to try something else.
posted by rtha at 10:50 AM on June 5, 2009
Your husband's behavior is not adult. His behavior sounds like mine when I worked through a string of fairly crappy jobs in my 20s, and in the periods when I was unemployed, I didn't do much to change that status. I was clinically depressed, and while I'm not a psychologist, therapist etc., if you get him to do nothing else, you should get him to see his doctor before his benefits run out, and have him evaluated for depression.
If it isn't depression - and it might not be, as there are plenty of unmotivated, non-depressed people in the world - can you enlist his family to (gently, non-naggingly) help you help him? When someone works themselves into a cycle of shame/avoidance/defensiveness/withdrawal, it's nearly impossible to nag someone out of it, as the nagging just feeds it. If you can get him to do some sort of activity - a volunteer project with Habitat, or a cleanup day at the park, or anything really - that might help break the do-nothing entropy. Do this activity with him - figure out some fun, positive, makes-you-both-feel-good thing, and don't talk about work or finding a job or whatever, just let him know that you love spending time with him when he's engaged and happy. Positive reinforcement, in other words.
I have no idea if this will help him, or you. But the negative reinforcement hasn't (and probably won't) help, so you have to try something else.
posted by rtha at 10:50 AM on June 5, 2009
Being supportive of him is one thing. Looking for jobs for him and checking up on him like he's a little kid is something else and not healthy. I'm sure he dreads talking about it with you. But fact is he still isn't doing anything.
You don't mention depression or other issues, so that's probably just how he is. I know several people that function this way. Late 30's, dead end service jobs, no ambition, but happy. And he apparently doesn't see a problem with his behavior or situation, no matter what you've done up up to the point you feel you need to threaten to move out. (Note - most people would react far differently than he did. Maybe it is depression.)
Assuming he's not got some other mental issue, I'd suggest moving up your move out timetable so you can be gone before his job ends.
posted by anti social order at 10:53 AM on June 5, 2009
You don't mention depression or other issues, so that's probably just how he is. I know several people that function this way. Late 30's, dead end service jobs, no ambition, but happy. And he apparently doesn't see a problem with his behavior or situation, no matter what you've done up up to the point you feel you need to threaten to move out. (Note - most people would react far differently than he did. Maybe it is depression.)
Assuming he's not got some other mental issue, I'd suggest moving up your move out timetable so you can be gone before his job ends.
posted by anti social order at 10:53 AM on June 5, 2009
I'm not fully in agreement with the posters who are really beating up on you here, but I think there is an important perspective shift you've got to make first, if you haven't already done so, which is to see that it's you who has the problem with your husband's approach to work. I don't mean you're unjustified in having the problem, or that you're to blame, or anything - but it is your problem, not his. Judging from your post, he seems basically fine with a life where jobs eventually turn up, money trickles in from somewhere when he really needs it, etc.
So next, I'd say you need to ask why this is a problem for you. Is it that you find his lack of direction unattractive? Is it that you'd be fine with him being a bit of a drifting type if you didn't have to support him financially? Etcetera. Or perhaps it's even possible that you could be basically fine with it too, once you see that he's not necessarily short-changing himself, by his own standards?
Thinking about the problem like this, you might still decide to offer the ultimatum, or you might decide to talk to him about it in a different way, enlisting his help in solving this problem that you have. But I think the perspective shift needs to happen first. Good luck! I see no evidence in your post that you guys can't sort this out somehow.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 10:55 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
So next, I'd say you need to ask why this is a problem for you. Is it that you find his lack of direction unattractive? Is it that you'd be fine with him being a bit of a drifting type if you didn't have to support him financially? Etcetera. Or perhaps it's even possible that you could be basically fine with it too, once you see that he's not necessarily short-changing himself, by his own standards?
Thinking about the problem like this, you might still decide to offer the ultimatum, or you might decide to talk to him about it in a different way, enlisting his help in solving this problem that you have. But I think the perspective shift needs to happen first. Good luck! I see no evidence in your post that you guys can't sort this out somehow.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 10:55 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
The way I'm seeing it, your husband has a long history of people (his parents, his friends, YOU) enabling his laziness. Yes. He's lazy. But at least he comes by it honestly. From your account, he's really never had to support himself in any meaningful way. You married him expecting that he would change and...well...that almost never happens. He was lazy then and he's lazy now.
As for him being "overqualified" for some of the jobs he might take, I'll just quote back to you something my sister said to her own husband when he claimed the same thing: "You're 'overqualified' to be unemployed!"
I think it's pretty likely that the only way you're going to motivate him into getting off his lazy ass and finding a job -- ANY job -- is by moving out. If you've got a lease where you're living, be sure your name is taken off. You don't want to wind up paying rent on a place you're not living. Same with any car loans or whatever. Protect yourself financially.
From the way you've described him, your husband may very likely wind up living with his parents or sponging off his friends but -- eventually -- even they may grow tired of his laziness. That might be what it finally takes for him to get it through his head that he's got to get a job.
Certainly, you can keep the lines of communication open with him during this process, explaining that while you do love him, you are no longer going to support him. Quite honestly, in my experience this sort of thing generally ends the marriage. Even if he finally gets a job, he'll very likely resent you for this. Be strong, though. Do you really want to be tied down for the rest of your life, working to support someone who -- while completely capable -- refuses to contribute to the household?
posted by rhartong at 10:56 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
As for him being "overqualified" for some of the jobs he might take, I'll just quote back to you something my sister said to her own husband when he claimed the same thing: "You're 'overqualified' to be unemployed!"
I think it's pretty likely that the only way you're going to motivate him into getting off his lazy ass and finding a job -- ANY job -- is by moving out. If you've got a lease where you're living, be sure your name is taken off. You don't want to wind up paying rent on a place you're not living. Same with any car loans or whatever. Protect yourself financially.
From the way you've described him, your husband may very likely wind up living with his parents or sponging off his friends but -- eventually -- even they may grow tired of his laziness. That might be what it finally takes for him to get it through his head that he's got to get a job.
Certainly, you can keep the lines of communication open with him during this process, explaining that while you do love him, you are no longer going to support him. Quite honestly, in my experience this sort of thing generally ends the marriage. Even if he finally gets a job, he'll very likely resent you for this. Be strong, though. Do you really want to be tied down for the rest of your life, working to support someone who -- while completely capable -- refuses to contribute to the household?
posted by rhartong at 10:56 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, if I were you I would totally disregard what sickinthehead said. And majick, for that matter. And, on preview, a bunch of others. I'm not sure what nerve your post is hitting, but it sounds like a lot of people prize their right to endless video games - nothing wrong with that, so long as they don't expect you to support them.
To me, it sounds like you've been very supportive of him, that you don't really care how much money he brings in (very selfless of you, seeing as that leaves you stuck paying all the bills) so long as he's doing SOMEthing, and that you even prefer that he be making less money if it means he's pursuing an artistic dream. You've encouraged that dream, you've helped him formulate plans for realizing it, and you've even paid for him to have opportunities to further it.
And all that has come to nothing.
Like arniec said, I hope you're ready to make good on your plan to leave. Your husband is acting like a child, and if he's unwilling to be an adult and participate as an equal partner in your marriage then it's time he learned what the consequences are. I doubt he'll be able to fund his video-game habit for long without you enabling him. So pack your bags, because I don't see the man you describe growing up any time soon.
I'm sorry, these are probably not the "here's how to solve this" responses you were hoping for. One last thought: you might want to start seeing a therapist who can help you prepare to leave and, if necessary, cope with the grief of the dissolution of your marriage.
posted by philotes at 10:57 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
To me, it sounds like you've been very supportive of him, that you don't really care how much money he brings in (very selfless of you, seeing as that leaves you stuck paying all the bills) so long as he's doing SOMEthing, and that you even prefer that he be making less money if it means he's pursuing an artistic dream. You've encouraged that dream, you've helped him formulate plans for realizing it, and you've even paid for him to have opportunities to further it.
And all that has come to nothing.
Like arniec said, I hope you're ready to make good on your plan to leave. Your husband is acting like a child, and if he's unwilling to be an adult and participate as an equal partner in your marriage then it's time he learned what the consequences are. I doubt he'll be able to fund his video-game habit for long without you enabling him. So pack your bags, because I don't see the man you describe growing up any time soon.
I'm sorry, these are probably not the "here's how to solve this" responses you were hoping for. One last thought: you might want to start seeing a therapist who can help you prepare to leave and, if necessary, cope with the grief of the dissolution of your marriage.
posted by philotes at 10:57 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
I kept reading looking for the "and if he doesn't find something, we're not going to be able to make rent here," but it never came. If you married a dilettantish Xbox-playing artist type...what did you expect? I'm not trying to be snarky here; I just don't get why he "needs" a job quite this urgently. If he "happens" into jobs, why not just roll with it and float him until he does that again? What sort of expectations were discussed when you married?
posted by kmennie at 10:59 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by kmennie at 10:59 AM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: Wow, maybe I look like a huge jerk. A couple clarifications/additions:
Thanks for the constructive comments so far.
posted by LolaGeek at 11:04 AM on June 5, 2009
- We have been together for 7 years, married for 3, and generally do not argue. I am actually sort of amazed how well we get along, compared to just about everyone else in my life who I hear complaining about their spouse.
- We have had many actual discussions about this sort of thing in the past. He knows that I do not mind being "the responsible one" (i.e. making sure bills get paid, commitments are kept, etc.) as long as he is willing to help me when necessary (i.e. financially, time, labor). I think we work well together and our personalities compliment each other.
- When I say I'll move out, I don't mean I'm going to take my things and go and that will be the end of the marriage. I mean I'll be sleeping over in a relative's spare room. We have discussed this too, and I have explained that it was hard for me living with him during his previous period of unemployment (not being on a regular schedule, not treating "job hunting" as a job, etc.).
- My company is also currently in an uncertain situation, and I may be unemployed by the end of the year as well.
Thanks for the constructive comments so far.
posted by LolaGeek at 11:04 AM on June 5, 2009
it drives us both crazy that he hasn't had better luck with employment
If it really, really truly does drive him crazy too, I withdraw most of my earlier comment. But it is worth asking yourself whether he truly hates the way his work life has turned out so far, or if he just hates the fact that you hate it.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:08 AM on June 5, 2009
If it really, really truly does drive him crazy too, I withdraw most of my earlier comment. But it is worth asking yourself whether he truly hates the way his work life has turned out so far, or if he just hates the fact that you hate it.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:08 AM on June 5, 2009
I would stop making excuses for him and start finding better ways to set up boundaries right now besides your ultimatum in November.
Whether he works or not is his business - but whether you share your income with him or not his your business. I would suggest you draw up a budget and figure out what a reasonable contribution is from both of you (maybe your earning capacity is higher right now so you should contribute 60 percent to the house, to food, etc ... maybe his will be higher than yours in the future so it should ramp up gradually). Once you have contributed your share of the household expenses, your extra spending money is your own, and he doesn't get it.
It seems silly to set up separate bank accounts and all of that, but you're already contemplating moving out of the house in November which is a far more serious step IMHO. Separate the finances from the relationship and then quit badgering him about finding a job.
posted by Happydaz at 11:12 AM on June 5, 2009
Whether he works or not is his business - but whether you share your income with him or not his your business. I would suggest you draw up a budget and figure out what a reasonable contribution is from both of you (maybe your earning capacity is higher right now so you should contribute 60 percent to the house, to food, etc ... maybe his will be higher than yours in the future so it should ramp up gradually). Once you have contributed your share of the household expenses, your extra spending money is your own, and he doesn't get it.
It seems silly to set up separate bank accounts and all of that, but you're already contemplating moving out of the house in November which is a far more serious step IMHO. Separate the finances from the relationship and then quit badgering him about finding a job.
posted by Happydaz at 11:12 AM on June 5, 2009
I am actually sort of amazed how well we get along, compared to just about everyone else in my life who I hear complaining about their spouse.
How many of those people are thisclose to moving out of their house to get away from their spouse? Just wondering.
I'm with kmennie- why is it so urgent that he look for a job? It's not like there are a lot of jobs out there, how would you feel if he truly was desperately looking and still not finding anything? I think this period could be a great chance for the two of you to figure out where your priorities are in life. Maybe there are things you can cut back on that will allow you to live on one fixed salary, freeing him to pursue whatever he wants to pursue- what would that be like? I would think it could be more fun than the vicious cycle you two are stuck in now.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:13 AM on June 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
How many of those people are thisclose to moving out of their house to get away from their spouse? Just wondering.
I'm with kmennie- why is it so urgent that he look for a job? It's not like there are a lot of jobs out there, how would you feel if he truly was desperately looking and still not finding anything? I think this period could be a great chance for the two of you to figure out where your priorities are in life. Maybe there are things you can cut back on that will allow you to live on one fixed salary, freeing him to pursue whatever he wants to pursue- what would that be like? I would think it could be more fun than the vicious cycle you two are stuck in now.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:13 AM on June 5, 2009 [3 favorites]
I think the employers that he interviews with can probably sense the same think you do -- that he really just doesn't want the job that much. He won't be able to muster a genuine, palpable effort until he feels an actual sense of urgency. I think the next four months are going to make you crazy, and I recommend that whatever ultimatum you're planning to pull out of your hat ought to be put into action NOW, not later. Spare both of you the long, unpleasant slog toward inevitability. He's telling you that he's not willing or able to care for you or himself, and no amount of nagging or wheedling is going to change that.
posted by hermitosis at 11:14 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by hermitosis at 11:14 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
LolaGeek, I totally don't think you're a jerk here. I think your concerns are extremely valid. In my situation, the first boyfriend (A) was awesome and I still adore him. We got along famously and were really good together. It also never bothered me that he didn't work and I could not understand why he wasn't doing better because he is so smart and talented. That said, what ate at us and eventually led to the breakup was the lack of faith and distrust that built up. He said he would work at making his art his primary job, and that didn't happen. He said he'd get a job and support me when I went back to school and that didn't happen. He said he'd take any job out there, even if it was a greeter at Walmart to help out with finances after I bought our house, and it didn't happen. After a while I just stopped assuming he'd ever do anything responsible and helpful. And I treated him like a very beloved child. We broke up precisely because he felt I would never allow him to be an adult because I'd covered for him for so long. And I'm not sure he was wrong.
Boyfriend B was much more of a jerk and our relationship wasn't anywhere near flawless, so the unemployed thing was just one of the many straws on the camel.
I get that you want to help and support him, but I'm not sure it's really helpful. At some point he needs to learn how to get through this on his own without family or you to support him. It takes a lot out of someone to constantly know they aren't capable of supporting themselves and to continually have to rely on the kindness of others for shelter and support. He may not even realize how very damaged he is by the total lack of control over his life. But until he can acknowledge it and want to change it....little is gonna change for you.
posted by teleri025 at 11:17 AM on June 5, 2009
Boyfriend B was much more of a jerk and our relationship wasn't anywhere near flawless, so the unemployed thing was just one of the many straws on the camel.
I get that you want to help and support him, but I'm not sure it's really helpful. At some point he needs to learn how to get through this on his own without family or you to support him. It takes a lot out of someone to constantly know they aren't capable of supporting themselves and to continually have to rely on the kindness of others for shelter and support. He may not even realize how very damaged he is by the total lack of control over his life. But until he can acknowledge it and want to change it....little is gonna change for you.
posted by teleri025 at 11:17 AM on June 5, 2009
In response to "he is not an adult," "he's not pulling his own weight," "stop enabling him," etc....
1) Is this about money? Because if he's not bringing in a reasonable amount of INCOME -- if you're paying the bills, covering house expenses, and doing more than your fair share of the financial work, that's a problem, and is something that needs to be addressed immediately. If he can't cover his own expenses, then yes, you're enabling him, and you need to stop.
2) Anything beyond that is seems totally out of line. There's a huge difference between nagging someone because they're sponging off you, and nagging them because they don't have the amount of drive, wherewithal, or ambition you think they should have. November is a long way away, and he may not actually have trouble finding work. Or he might just want to take a crappy job for awhile -- in which case, May is way too early to be looking.
From your post, it doesn't sound like you're enabling him -- it sounds like you're living out a fantasy of the kind of person you would like him to be, and the kind of job you'd like him to have -- and then *resenting* him for not buying into it. The fact that you give us all this information about his previous employment history makes it seem like it's less about money than it is about him, his habits, and the kind of employment he chooses, rather than the immediate financial issue of him not being able to pay rent.
This seems a little unfair, to say the least. If this is a deal-breaker for you, then make the November 1 deadline and stick to it -- and then don't ask, don't inquire, and definitely don't nag him about how and when he's going to find employment.
If it's not a deal-breaker, then do this: sit down and plan your household expenses for the summer, ASSUMING THAT HE WON'T BE EMPLOYED in November, and budgeting for a 2-3 month gap. Make it clear that the financial discrepancy is his responsibility, and that you're not going to cover for him. He can address it however he wants: by saving money, by cutting down on his expenses, by negotiating for a larger severance package (?), or by getting a job. It doesn't matter to you how he does it -- but make it clear that you're not going to cover for him, and that he's still responsible for contributing to rent, electricity, and any other household expenses.
And then leave him alone about it. You've both said everything you need to say, and it's up to him to figure out what to do.
posted by puckish at 11:21 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
1) Is this about money? Because if he's not bringing in a reasonable amount of INCOME -- if you're paying the bills, covering house expenses, and doing more than your fair share of the financial work, that's a problem, and is something that needs to be addressed immediately. If he can't cover his own expenses, then yes, you're enabling him, and you need to stop.
2) Anything beyond that is seems totally out of line. There's a huge difference between nagging someone because they're sponging off you, and nagging them because they don't have the amount of drive, wherewithal, or ambition you think they should have. November is a long way away, and he may not actually have trouble finding work. Or he might just want to take a crappy job for awhile -- in which case, May is way too early to be looking.
From your post, it doesn't sound like you're enabling him -- it sounds like you're living out a fantasy of the kind of person you would like him to be, and the kind of job you'd like him to have -- and then *resenting* him for not buying into it. The fact that you give us all this information about his previous employment history makes it seem like it's less about money than it is about him, his habits, and the kind of employment he chooses, rather than the immediate financial issue of him not being able to pay rent.
This seems a little unfair, to say the least. If this is a deal-breaker for you, then make the November 1 deadline and stick to it -- and then don't ask, don't inquire, and definitely don't nag him about how and when he's going to find employment.
If it's not a deal-breaker, then do this: sit down and plan your household expenses for the summer, ASSUMING THAT HE WON'T BE EMPLOYED in November, and budgeting for a 2-3 month gap. Make it clear that the financial discrepancy is his responsibility, and that you're not going to cover for him. He can address it however he wants: by saving money, by cutting down on his expenses, by negotiating for a larger severance package (?), or by getting a job. It doesn't matter to you how he does it -- but make it clear that you're not going to cover for him, and that he's still responsible for contributing to rent, electricity, and any other household expenses.
And then leave him alone about it. You've both said everything you need to say, and it's up to him to figure out what to do.
posted by puckish at 11:21 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
On review, what happydaz says --- separate finances now, if it's not done already
posted by puckish at 11:23 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by puckish at 11:23 AM on June 5, 2009
When I say I'll move out, I don't mean I'm going to take my things and go and that will be the end of the marriage. I mean I'll be sleeping over in a relative's spare room.
Just another follow-up on this- I'm not sure how you can treat moving out of the home you share with your husband so casually. For many couples, moving out is the beginning of the end. To choose to stop living together in the day-to-day could provide the space you need to get things working again- or could just drive you further apart. I hope that if you do end up moving out that you really think it through and work out a plan together to use that time productively to work on the things that will bring you back together, because if you don't have that plan, things aren't magically going to fall back into place in the long-term.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:23 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just another follow-up on this- I'm not sure how you can treat moving out of the home you share with your husband so casually. For many couples, moving out is the beginning of the end. To choose to stop living together in the day-to-day could provide the space you need to get things working again- or could just drive you further apart. I hope that if you do end up moving out that you really think it through and work out a plan together to use that time productively to work on the things that will bring you back together, because if you don't have that plan, things aren't magically going to fall back into place in the long-term.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:23 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Um, I've only been married six months, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure threatening to move out of the house because you're unhappy with something your spouse is doing is not how marriage works. You're putting yourself on one side of the problem and him on the other. You should be tackling this as a team.
Instead of nagging him. Try talking to him. Treat him like an adult. Ask him what his plans are. Is he interested in finding another job or does he want to make the mural business work? However he responds, offer to help him. What he does with his life has to be his choice, but you can help him once he makes that choice.
posted by bananafish at 11:26 AM on June 5, 2009
Instead of nagging him. Try talking to him. Treat him like an adult. Ask him what his plans are. Is he interested in finding another job or does he want to make the mural business work? However he responds, offer to help him. What he does with his life has to be his choice, but you can help him once he makes that choice.
posted by bananafish at 11:26 AM on June 5, 2009
ah, damn. i didn't preview enough --- not intending to pile on and call you a jerk (re: your response). It just sounds like you've got a lot invested in his employment, and that while you may not be able to change him, you might be able to change how much you care.
And since it's really the only part you have control over, I'd make that a priority. And be open to other ways for him to bring in income. It doesn't have to be "perfect" - it doesn't have to be a total fulfillment of his talents (of course he's brilliant and smart, but that doesn't mean he's eminently employable). It does need to be his choice, though. And if you can get behind that, and support it, and REALLY separate it from your own investments / ambitions for him, I think things will be a lot smoother for you.
posted by puckish at 11:27 AM on June 5, 2009
And since it's really the only part you have control over, I'd make that a priority. And be open to other ways for him to bring in income. It doesn't have to be "perfect" - it doesn't have to be a total fulfillment of his talents (of course he's brilliant and smart, but that doesn't mean he's eminently employable). It does need to be his choice, though. And if you can get behind that, and support it, and REALLY separate it from your own investments / ambitions for him, I think things will be a lot smoother for you.
posted by puckish at 11:27 AM on June 5, 2009
Please don't take this the wrong way, but your husband is a loser.
He is so smart and talented, it drives us both crazy that he hasn't had better luck with employment.
Good employment is 75% effort and 25% luck. He isn't putting in the effort needed to find a good job, he's depending instead on luck to bail him out -- this is what makes him a loser.
You can't be his mommy and force him to do the right thing, so do as BostonTerrier suggests: Do what you personally can to be sure that your own situation doesn't become more difficult.
posted by Simon Barclay at 11:38 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
He is so smart and talented, it drives us both crazy that he hasn't had better luck with employment.
Good employment is 75% effort and 25% luck. He isn't putting in the effort needed to find a good job, he's depending instead on luck to bail him out -- this is what makes him a loser.
You can't be his mommy and force him to do the right thing, so do as BostonTerrier suggests: Do what you personally can to be sure that your own situation doesn't become more difficult.
posted by Simon Barclay at 11:38 AM on June 5, 2009 [2 favorites]
I stand by what I said above about communication, etc. but I want to nth what has been said and hopefully drive it home. I'm surprised I didn't see it on my first read but you said his MOTHER got him to get a job by crying, and now you are in the role of trying to make him get a job and hoping you can get his MOTHER to do it because you can't.
You have adopted the mommy role of him, and he's let you do it. Not to be all Freudian (because I think it's mostly BS) but is his mother a domineering woman who he both caters to but also rebels against? Because he's transferring those feelings, and that relationship, onto his relationship with you.
That means your marriage is NOT a partnership, and you're the equivalent of a single parent.
But even the parental authority is undermined by your unwillingness to take a hard stance. When you said "move out" in the opening I read that as "leave him alone to pay his own bills". Now that you've clarified it as "just staying with a friend as a sign of displeasure" that means you don't have any authority, he doesn't want any authority...to use an analogy, you're two flowers in a garden, there's no gardener, and the weeds are starting to grow high.
If nothing else from this thread hopefully you will realize that this is the relationship and act to change it. If you've been together this long with these roles, it will take both of your wanting to change it and working to change it to make it actually change.
posted by arniec at 11:55 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
You have adopted the mommy role of him, and he's let you do it. Not to be all Freudian (because I think it's mostly BS) but is his mother a domineering woman who he both caters to but also rebels against? Because he's transferring those feelings, and that relationship, onto his relationship with you.
That means your marriage is NOT a partnership, and you're the equivalent of a single parent.
But even the parental authority is undermined by your unwillingness to take a hard stance. When you said "move out" in the opening I read that as "leave him alone to pay his own bills". Now that you've clarified it as "just staying with a friend as a sign of displeasure" that means you don't have any authority, he doesn't want any authority...to use an analogy, you're two flowers in a garden, there's no gardener, and the weeds are starting to grow high.
If nothing else from this thread hopefully you will realize that this is the relationship and act to change it. If you've been together this long with these roles, it will take both of your wanting to change it and working to change it to make it actually change.
posted by arniec at 11:55 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Your pressuring/pushing is not going to make him get up and get a job. Evidence is showing that this is true. You cannot control him, and there are a lot more things besides you that are contributing to his continued unemployment. You need to either let this go and let him take care of it, or do what YOU need to do to take care of yourself.
posted by so_gracefully at 11:56 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by so_gracefully at 11:56 AM on June 5, 2009
I sure hope there's more going on in your marriage than this power struggle. Power struggles are very corrosive. They can take over your life, because everything becomes symbolic for what it means about the struggle. Like if he doesn't take out the garbage, it's yet another indicator of how passive/lazy/childlike he is or what a nag you are. Things can get to a point where the struggle resonates in every little thing and crowds out affection.
Do you and he go out together and have a good time? Do you look in each other's eyes and respect, appreciate, and honor each other? Can you and he still have fun together?
If not, I think the marriage is in a very critical place. It may be too late, but each of you needs to figure out if you want to stay married to each other and if so, you need to agree upon boundaries, obliagations and responsibilities you each have, and how to communicate about them. A couples counselor type person could be very helpful with this.
posted by jasper411 at 11:58 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
Do you and he go out together and have a good time? Do you look in each other's eyes and respect, appreciate, and honor each other? Can you and he still have fun together?
If not, I think the marriage is in a very critical place. It may be too late, but each of you needs to figure out if you want to stay married to each other and if so, you need to agree upon boundaries, obliagations and responsibilities you each have, and how to communicate about them. A couples counselor type person could be very helpful with this.
posted by jasper411 at 11:58 AM on June 5, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you divorced him, would you end up having to pay him alimony? If so, hide your savings by gifting it to your parents or something.
posted by anniecat at 11:59 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by anniecat at 11:59 AM on June 5, 2009
Why should you move? Tell him to get out unless he can pay half the mortgage with the money he brings in selling his video game system or whatever.
posted by anniecat at 12:00 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by anniecat at 12:00 PM on June 5, 2009
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If my spouse treated me like that I'd get pretty damn resentful and it would not motivate me AT ALL. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but that's what I get from this question.
posted by sickinthehead at 10:29 AM on June 5, 2009 [3 favorites]